{"id":148905,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148905","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1488b65508d71c0499df49190c8b13865de4c744a3d84f2dc986728e607a03229dce577f35eaa5d55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"江永昌","委員發言時間":"09:34:16 - 09:53:06","影片長度":"00:18:50","會議時間":"2023-12-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員陳超明等22人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查（一）委員黃世杰等16人、（二）委員游毓蘭等17人及（三）委員黃世杰等16人分別擬具「司法人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、併案審查（一）委員劉建國等18人擬具「公教人員保險法第十二條條文修正草案」、（二）台灣民眾黨黨團及（三）委員邱志偉等17人分別擬具「公教人員保險法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-10-8-36-24"},"date":"2023-12-07","duration":1130,"end_time":"2023-12-07T09:53:06+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-07T09:34:16+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":339,"blocks":[["江委員永昌：（9時34分）謝謝召集人。就教於秘書長，請問一下立法委員可不可以有外國籍？"],["林秘書長志嘉：立法委員不可以有外國籍。"],["江委員永昌：規定在哪裡？"],["林秘書長志嘉：現在是國籍法第二十條相關規定。"],["江委員永昌：好，那就很奇怪，其實你要知道，那為什麼這次總統、副總統有沒有外國籍，社會譁然，最後有去查證，你知道為什麼嗎？難道也是看國籍法？事實上前面這裡有一個是，總統副總統選罷法當中直接就在裡面寫不可以具有外國籍，那麼在他們要登記的時候，就直接授權主管機關或中選會相關機關可以去做查證，也就是兩個加起來，當然有國籍法，可是前面一開始在總統副總統選罷法當中就明白告訴你不行。那立法委員是公職嗎？"],["林秘書長志嘉：立法委員是公職。"],["江委員永昌：對，也是廣義的公務員，等一下我會講到公務人員任用法第二十八條，我現在先講了，但是我們民選公職的選罷法當中，卻沒有把不得具有外國籍直接寫在裡面，後來又去看國籍法當中，就是擔任立法委員不得具有外國籍，但是又沒有授權你，沒有像總統副總統選罷法當中直接規定，所以就沒有授權你去查，因此我們搞什麼你知道嗎？我們搞切結書啊！這很不好，我不曉得就是為什麼我們這麼長久以來，其實以前也有立法委員發生過啊！結果我告訴你，後來一追下去之後，他所有的刑事判決，偽造文書不起訴，我就不要講哪個立法委員了，前任立法委員，利用職務詐取財務罪是無罪，然後行政上面請求返還他任內的薪資、助理費、補助費、俸給、給付等等，法院都判不必返還。也就是我們對這個事情這麼重視，但是其實我們進來的時候是寫切結書，那我們發生事情的時候，什麼都無罪、什麼都沒事，而給付也不用返還。","這兩個東西要補正，一個是我認為，立法院去想修法，民選公職這麼多，對不對？起碼我們立法委員是高度重視，在這當中我們不要再像其他的民選公職一樣，就是寫個切結書，不是、不是！我們自己升等，其實可以啊！授權你去查證，要不然現在如果萬一發生的時候，你要知道，如果我們選上之後，才發現在選之前已經具有外國籍身分的時候，是直接由立法院，立法委員是由立法院直接免除他的職務喔！其他的公務員假如用公務人員任用法，是在他的機關被他的機關免職，我們是直接被立法院喔！立法院靠什麼？沒有！靠你的切結書，到時候社會輿論、有人檢舉怎麼樣的時候，我們再匆匆忙忙請相關單位，也許拜託內政部、外交部再去跟國外查，所以我們不敢立法進階去做授權查證是怕什麼？怕一旦我們有授權立法院查證的時候，反而變成立法院為立法委員是否具有外國籍來背書，是怕這個嗎？還是怕人力、物力耗費頗大，我們做不完嗎？我剛剛講，光是付出去的給付沒有追回來，那個錢就很多啊！拿來辦這些都夠用。我說也許不要擴大到所有的民選公職，國會這一層一定要把關住啊！請回答我。"],["林秘書長志嘉：江委員，原則上是這樣子，對立法委員應該是，他能不能當選等等有一定的程序，所以對立法委員原則上我們是信任的原則……"],["江委員永昌：我不認為如此。"],["林秘書長志嘉：所以他只要簽切結書，因為我們的切結書就是依照國籍法第二十條相關規定問他說，本人就職第幾屆立委時未取得國籍，他如果勾是，我就是這樣子，這是我的承諾，我們信任他嘛！對不對？"],["江委員永昌：你們給人家勾兩條啦！一個是勾說你是不是有外國籍。"],["林秘書長志嘉：對。"],["江委員永昌：另外你們給人家勾的選項就是，如果你有的話，請你去放棄……"],["林秘書長志嘉：一年內。"],["江委員永昌：然後你一年之內……"],["林秘書長志嘉：這也是依照法規規定的處理。"],["江委員永昌：秘書長，你聽我講，權衡輕重，你就會發現，當民選公職你說用信任、用切結的方式，然後公務人員任用法第二十八條當中第一項第二款，具有外國籍也不行啊！如果任用後，發現他在任用的時候具有外國籍身分，那是撤銷任用耶！還要追還，坦白講他們也不是授權查證，是靠具結書，所以我說連我們立委都靠切結了，而公務機關對公務人員是否具有外國籍，不得任用、撤銷任用，它也在那邊搞具結，但至少人家還要追還喔！萬一你被檢舉，查出來我會追還。"],["林秘書長志嘉：我們也是追還喔！我們也是追喔！"],["江委員永昌：你用哪一條追還？"],["林秘書長志嘉：我們也是像法律上這樣……"],["江委員永昌：沒有、沒有、沒有、沒有，我剛剛講某位前立委……"],["林秘書長志嘉：我知道，是……"],["江委員永昌：等等你去查，如果秘書長講……"],["林秘書長志嘉：是法院沒有判他還……"],["江委員永昌：對啊！"],["林秘書長志嘉：但是我們有去追。這是兩回事，對不對？"],["江委員永昌：法律有站在你這一邊你才追得到；法律不站在你這邊，我剛剛講了，他不管是偽造文書跟詐取財物都是無罪。"],["林秘書長志嘉：因為他至少是欺騙我們嘛！"],["江委員永昌：不、不……"],["林秘書長志嘉：至少是欺騙我們啊！"],["江委員永昌：不、不、不，不是……"],["林秘書長志嘉：我們跟他說，你沒有取得外國國籍……"],["江委員永昌：不是，我認為立法委員來國會服公職，不是靠立法院秘書長、立法院院長、副院長對立法委員的信任，不是、不是，他是糟蹋國會尊嚴啦！我覺得其實應該大方授權，不要去擔心，你怕到時候去，外國政府不配合或什麼的，就是你授權我查證，結果我查不出來，反而變成你的背書，我認為不要去擔心這個，該做的事情就要做。"],["林秘書長志嘉：不是，委員，我們也很想做，但是這個一定是有它執行上的困難，因為如果我們變成一個查證機構的話，我們要有很多權力，而且……"],["江委員永昌：我認為應該要有。"],["林秘書長志嘉：你知道外國的政府有很多根本跟我們沒有任何邦交關係，你透過外交部，外交部做查證的工作，事實上，它也是有很多困難的地方……"],["江委員永昌：所以我今天……"],["林秘書長志嘉：如果立法院必須對所有的國家做查證的話，至少有100多個國家，立法院是不是都要去查證他沒有國籍，事實上，這樣子我們做不來啦！"],["江委員永昌：每一次立法委員如果有這樣的事情的時候，都是頭條，都是大事情……"],["林秘書長志嘉：沒有錯……"],["江委員永昌：該不會就是因為歷屆的立法院都只有用信任這樣來看待？我今天講了，其實我之前去詢問公務人員任用法主管機關，不管我問人總，不管我問銓敘部，坦白講，我當然考量到每個公務人員都要去查查不完，但是連立法委員就這麼樣113個席次，我們立法院自己公然跟人家講我們做不到，每次都是有問題的時候，大家來推諉，對不對？我認為這樣不對，我也沒有擴及到全部的民選公職啊！"],["林秘書長志嘉：不是，我們當然只對我們立法委員，可是一個立法委員……"],["江委員永昌：你要知道這裡面不是什麼信不信任，也不是這是資格不資格，這裡面還包含國安問題，你知道嗎？它已經升級到其實應該去檢視每一個身為中華民國的立法委員對國家應有的責任、對國家應有的義務、對自己應該有的要求，對不對？"],["林秘書長志嘉：對啊！所以……"],["江委員永昌：那你就用信任……"],["林秘書長志嘉：他必須照實以告，他如果沒有，他就要講沒有……"],["江委員永昌：但是從過去到現在，就是有……"],["林秘書長志嘉：他如果欺騙，他就是欺騙行為，他要負責啊！"],["江委員永昌：他負什麼責？"],["林秘書長志嘉：他當然要負責，他就是欺騙行為，我們會告他啊！"],["江委員永昌：最後你免除他職務的時候……"],["林秘書長志嘉：可以免除他職務啊！"],["江委員永昌：他什麼罪都沒有啊！"],["林秘書長志嘉：怎麼會沒有罪？"],["江委員永昌：你去看那個判決，判決都無罪。"],["林秘書長志嘉：當然他的判決是那樣子，是不是對他的判決永遠就是這樣子，我們還保持質疑，但是……"],["江委員永昌：好，秘書長，我總結你的話，你就是因為世界上國家這麼多，所以我們實在是沒有能力去查證……"],["林秘書長志嘉：好啦！委員……"],["江委員永昌：不是、不是，你要告訴我，你是站在國家安全、國家責任、立法委員義務，還是你是站在人力、物力不足，無從查證，還是你擔心查了如果沒查好，反而會是幫他們背書，但是你不能全部丟給你們對我信任，不能這樣子啦！"],["林秘書長志嘉：我是覺得這個事項我們這樣的處理在整個規劃裡面可以說是可以執行，而且也是相當適合的一個方式，我是這麼認為。"],["江委員永昌：好，我問你，但是總是發生事情的時候，你們就會行文相關單位去查了，行文外交部外館，從內政部移民署……"],["林秘書長志嘉：當然有人質疑的時候，我們都會去查，如果……"],["江委員永昌：好，我現在就要請教您，以後是怎麼樣？比方湯蕙禎、林思銘、江永昌今天問一問，新聞寫出來了，我說你們以後啟動對我們的信任調查是靠什麼要件？你總要有一個機制吧！你也不是今天院長、副院長、秘書長高興了，這個人新聞很大，查一下，或者這個人新聞很大，沒關係，這只是道聽途說，那個人其實我們有所懷疑，不會吧！你不會是靠這個吧！你至少告訴我，如果你都只靠信任，只靠切結，我沒有擴及到全部的公務員，我沒有擴及到全部的民選公職，我現在就講113席的立法委員，包括正副院長，你總要有一個SOP吧！就是當什麼事情到什麼時候，我們那張切結書形同廢紙，我們又沒有授權給你們的時候，你們是依照什麼東西去查我們，還是不是靠你們查，是靠內政部依照國籍法當中我們不可以任公職啟動調查？我不曉得，因為根據公職人員選罷法當中沒有，立法院的規則沒有，回頭來看，就是一個國籍法……"],["林秘書長志嘉：因為他違反國籍法嘛！"],["江委員永昌：連公務人員任用法第二十八條第一項第二款也都與我們是有距離的，你沒辦法、你沒標準、你沒有作業規範，我都不知道，我今天就在這邊說我懷疑湯蕙禎和林思銘，我今天就在這裡講，講完了呢？"],["林秘書長志嘉：委員，是這樣子……"],["江委員永昌：不、不，這要對全體國人來負責，不要每一次……"],["林秘書長志嘉：我知道，如果你要立法院去查證……"],["江委員永昌：不是、不是，就是至少我們……"],["林秘書長志嘉：你至少也要有一個法令依據，讓我們有依據去查，對不對？"],["江委員永昌：最簡單，我們不是寫切結書給你們，我們寫授權書給你們，就好像總統、副總統寫的就是授權書，你知道我們公務人員體系，公務人員任用法第二十八條，如果碰到第一項第二款的時候，不得為外國國籍身分，他們是寫具結書，我知道那個範圍都比較大，因為非常多人，不可能逐一去查，但是起碼國會自律，以後立委關於外國國籍不是寫切結書給你們，那個信任是假的，因為就是有人犯錯、犯過，他……"],["林秘書長志嘉：但是原則上……"],["江委員永昌：我們寫授權書給你們……"],["林秘書長志嘉：委員，我知道，你這樣子的考量，我想也是一種方法，但是……"],["江委員永昌：但是授權給你們不是你們去查，你們一旦拿到這個授權之後，就可以會相關的部會機關……"],["林秘書長志嘉：委員，原則上，我們對於立法委員的信任，這個信任，我覺得還是非常重要，因為你當一個立委，你被人民所付託，你當然要誠實以告，你連這個誠實都沒有，我覺得當然你就變成欺騙我們，是你欺騙我們，所以如果用這個切結書的方式，事實上，對於立法委員的尊重，還有對於整個執行上面，我覺得目前來講應該還是一個最好的方式。"],["江委員永昌：秘書長，我的重點是這個，單一立法委員不值得信任……"],["林秘書長志嘉：不值得信任是立法委員的問題啊！"],["江委員永昌：我把這句話講完，我把這句話講完，但整體的國會值得人民信賴，所以不要發生事情的時候立法院來發一個新聞稿，說那個立法委員切結寫假的，謝謝大家！不是吧！我們信賴的是國會……"],["林秘書長志嘉：沒有錯，我們……"],["江委員永昌：我跟你講，立法委員，各區域，包含不分區，是百工百業、形形色色、各樣的民眾，大家不同的角度選擇出來的民意代表，對不對？我們現在是排黑排得很嚴重，但是過去也有更生人當選立法委員，有的東西不是靠信任，我們要信任的是國會，我們要信賴國會，不是靠立法委員對立法院秘書長的切結書……"],["林秘書長志嘉：沒有、沒有，你不是信任我，你信任……"],["江委員永昌：國會、國會，所以你要維持國會……"],["林秘書長志嘉：我們是國家的……"],["江委員永昌：是、是、是，所以您是不是應該要維持我們的國會被民眾信任……"],["林秘書長志嘉：當然。"],["江委員永昌：是嘛！我是基於這一點啊！"],["林秘書長志嘉：是啊！我們目前所做的方式就是這樣子啊！"],["江委員永昌：不、不、不，您剛剛的講法都是立法委員自己切結，以昭公信，到時候說你看你的切結亂寫……"],["林秘書長志嘉：不是，我是覺得，一般來講，譬如我們進到美國海關等等或者是有一些地方，他也是叫你，你有沒有帶毒品，你自己切結，你寫沒有，我信任你沒有，但是如果你有，我抓到當然是重懲，因為你欺騙我們，你怎麼可以這樣做，那是你個人的問題，對於立法委員，我們認為一個立法委員既然已經是一個立法委員，而且他可能是人民所託或者是政黨所託的，我們原則上就以信任……"],["江委員永昌：不、不、不，秘書長，今天司法院也有來……"],["林秘書長志嘉：我們告訴他很清楚……"],["江委員永昌：您是在講刑事上、偵查上的不自證己罪，還是你在講有一個人帶毒品要過海關，自己還寫我有帶毒品……"],["林秘書長志嘉：不是、不是，委員，原則上……"],["江委員永昌：不會發生這種事吧！我再講一次，在座哪一個有理性的告訴我，誰攜帶毒品過海關還會自己寫我有帶毒品……"],["林秘書長志嘉：不是，不是只有毒品，還有錢財……"],["江委員永昌：秘書長，我很尊重你，但是你這個扯遠了……"],["林秘書長志嘉：原則上……"],["江委員永昌：要把它拉回來，我在講的是國會，你不要把它丟給單一立法委員的切結，我知道你沒有……"],["林秘書長志嘉：好，如果……"],["江委員永昌：我只能說也許您現下沒有答案，但國人的期待不是如此……"],["林秘書長志嘉：好、好……"],["江委員永昌：我今天的詢答真的是心中把立法院放在非常高的位置……"],["林秘書長志嘉：謝謝委員……"],["江委員永昌：我沒有擴及到其他民選公職，今天考試院也有來，我沒有擴及到全部的公務人員，但就113席（含正副院長）不具外國籍，這個已經到國安的層次，甚至是國家的義務跟責任以及國會的信賴、國會的信任，這不該只是靠那一張切結，再研究看看、再想想看。"],["林秘書長志嘉：委員，原則上我也感謝你的發言，事實上你所提的任何一些意見，包括一些立法院的條例，其實長久以來我都非常佩服，因為我覺得你常常看到一些我們沒有看到的，但是針對這一個部分，你所提的意見，原則上我還是會把它接納，而且我們也會回去好好再想，除了切結之外是不是還有更好的方式來做這樣子的問題，但是我們對立法委員的尊重我們還是會維持，只是你所提的這些，我們是不是可以將切結改成授權，這樣子的方式會更好，我感謝委員所提出來的方法。"],["江委員永昌：還有後面這個，公務人員任用法規定，如果任用後發現，原來他任用時已具外國籍，當他被撤銷任用的時候，他是要追還給付喔！在我們立法院，立法委員就算被發現，原來你就職了，也沒有在1年內放棄什麼的，你去查一下，因為我最後看到的是，我們雖然要追，但是於法無據，沒什麼可以追，這個也去……"],["林秘書長志嘉：這一點也很重要，謝謝委員提出這一點，你講的這些事情我們會好好的研究一下，也許你這樣的意見，還有將來如果說他真的等於是欺瞞我們，他本身本來就有外國籍，這樣子的話我們將來要追討他的一些薪資、俸餉等等也有一個依據，所以我覺得這個我們一併來把它考量。"],["江委員永昌：因為這次的事件傷害很深，人家說，你有沒有外國籍？他說他原來已經在立法院做不分區，還讓子彈飛了二個禮拜，在那邊講來講去，這沒有道理，這對國會的形象其實是傷害很大。"],["林秘書長志嘉：事實上……好啦！我覺得我們還是接納委員的意見，我們來好好考慮一下。"],["江委員永昌：我想很多我們的國民說，原來是切結喔！都不好意思講說，真好笑。但是我覺得我們應該嚴肅看待，秘書長，我是很尊重你，但我覺得這個題目應該要更努力一些。"],["林秘書長志嘉：好，我非常感謝委員您所提出的這個善意，的一個建議，而且你這個建議的確也值得我們深思來考慮，我們會把它納入來考慮，也許如果找到一個更好的方法，我們會來做處理，謝謝委員。"],["江委員永昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席（湯委員蕙禎代）：謝謝江永昌委員。","下一位請我們的召委林思銘委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":362,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-36-24","speakers":["林思銘","曾銘宗","鄭運鵬","江永昌","湯蕙禎","游毓蘭","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","劉建國","賴香伶","李德維","林淑芬","邱臣遠","謝衣鳯","吳琪銘"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2023-12-07"],"gazette_id":"1129702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129702_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員陳超明等22人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查\n(一)委員黃世杰等16人、(二)委員游毓蘭等17人及(三)委員黃世杰等16人分別擬具「司法人員人\n事條例部分條文修正草案」案；三、併案審查(一)委員劉建國等18人擬具「公教人員保險法第十\n二條條文修正草案」、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團及(三)委員邱志偉等17人分別擬具「公教人員保險法\n第三十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1129702_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"148905","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148905","tool":"pyannote","id":"148905-pyannote"},"job_id":"jtIUhCclwRBbbjjL","queued_at":"2025-10-22 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\"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1124.648, \"end\": 1124.789, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 1124.789, \"end\": 1124.989, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 1124.989, \"end\": 1125.19, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1125.19, \"end\": 1125.33, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 1125.33, \"end\": 1125.45, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 1125.45, \"end\": 1125.571, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1125.571, \"end\": 1125.591, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,933 --> 00:00:23,303\n他現在是國籍法第20條相關規定好那就很奇怪齁其實你要知道那為什麼這次總統副總統有沒有外國籍社會嘩然他最後有去查證你知道為什麼難道也是看國籍法嗎事實上他前面這裡有一個總統副總統他的選拔法當中直接就在裡面寫不可以具有外國籍\n\n2\n00:00:24,500 --> 00:00:42,834\n那麼在他們要登記的時候就直接授權主管機關或中選會相關機關可以去做查證也就是說他兩個加起來他當然有國際法可是他前面一開始在總統副總統選爆法當中就告訴你明白告訴你不行那立法委員是公職嗎\n\n3\n00:00:44,386 --> 00:01:05,322\n立法委員是公職對也是廣義的公務員等一下我會講到公務員認證用法28條我現在先講了但是我們民選公職有沒有在選拔法當中卻沒有直接把不得具有外國籍直接寫在裡面然後後來又去看國籍法當中就是不得擔任立法委員不得具有那個外國身份\n\n4\n00:01:07,270 --> 00:01:27,326\n但是又沒有授權你啦沒有像總統副總統選發法當中直接規定的所以就沒有授權你去查所以我們搞什麼你知道嗎我們搞竊結書啊這很不好啊就是說我不曉得就是說為什麼我們這麼長久以來其實以前也有立法委員發聲過\n\n5\n00:01:29,199 --> 00:01:51,016\n結果我告訴你後來一追下去之後他所有的刑事判決違照文書不起訴我就不要講哪個立法委員前任立法委員利用職務榨取財務罪無罪然後行政上面請求返還他任內的薪資助理費補助費奉給給付等等法院都判不必返還\n\n6\n00:01:52,515 --> 00:02:19,821\n也就是說我們對這個事情這麼重視但是其實我們進來的時候是寫切結書那我們發生事情的時候什麼都無罪什麼都沒事那給付也不用返還這兩個東西要補正一個是我認為啦那立法院去想修法說也許民選公職這麼多對不對那起碼我們立法委員是高度重視啦在這當中我們不要再像其他的民選公職一樣就是寫個切結書不是不是我們自己深等嘛\n\n7\n00:02:20,819 --> 00:02:37,885\n其實可以啊授權你去查證啊要不然現在如果萬一發生的時候你要知道喔如果他有如果我們選上之後才發現在選之前已經具有外國籍身份的時候是直接由立法院立法委員是由立法院直接免除他職務喔\n\n8\n00:02:39,085 --> 00:03:04,996\n那其他的公務員假如用公務員任務法是在他的機關被他的機關免職我們是直接被立法院立法院靠什麼沒有靠你切結書到時候社會輿論有人檢舉怎麼樣的時候我們再匆匆忙忙請相關單位也許拜託內政部外交部有沒有再去跟國外查所以我們不敢立法進階去做授權查證是怕什麼怕一旦我們\n\n9\n00:03:05,996 --> 00:03:30,647\n我們有授權立法院查證的時候反而變成立法院來為立法委員是否具有外國籍來背書是怕這個嗎還是怕人力物力耗費頗大我們做不完嗎其實我剛剛講光是付出去的幾付沒有追回來那個錢就很多啊拿來辦這些行動用我說也許不要擴大到所有的民選公職國會這一層一定要把關注啊請回答我那個江委員原則上是這樣子對立法委員原則上他是應該\n\n10\n00:03:34,212 --> 00:03:54,787\n他能不能當選等等他有一定的程序所以我們對立法委員的原則上我們是信任原則我不認為如此因為我們的竊結書就是依照國際法20條相關規定給他問他說本人就職\n\n11\n00:03:57,570 --> 00:04:25,321\n幾屆立委時未取得國籍他如果是勾說是的我就是這樣子這是我的承諾我們你們給人家勾兩條一個是勾說你是不是有外國籍另外你們給人家勾的選項就是說如果你有的話請你去放棄然後你一年之內有沒有這也是依照法規定的民主黨你聽我講成恆輕重你就會發現了當我們民選公子你說用信任\n\n12\n00:04:26,141 --> 00:04:42,337\n那我們公務人員任用法對不對我們用切解然後公務人員任用法28條當中第一項第二款具有外國籍也不行啊如果任用後發現他在任用時的時候具有外國籍有沒有那是撤銷任用耶那還要追還有沒有\n\n13\n00:04:43,078 --> 00:05:03,391\n那坦白講他們也不是授權查證欸是靠拒絕書所以我說連我們立委都靠竊竊公務機關對公務員製補者就有外國籍不得任用撤銷任用他也在那邊搞說要拒絕至少人家還要追還喔萬一你被檢舉查出來會追還我們也是追還喔你用哪一條追還沒有沒有沒有我剛講某位前立委\n\n14\n00:05:10,227 --> 00:05:27,733\n法院沒有判他還但是我們有去追這是兩回事法律有站在你這邊你才追得到法律不站在你這邊我剛講了他不管是偽造文書跟榨取財物都是無罪因為他至少是欺騙我們嘛至少是欺騙我們啊我認為立法委員來國會服公職\n\n15\n00:05:35,475 --> 00:05:58,838\n不是靠立法院秘書長立法院院長副院長對立法委員的信任不是不是那是糟蹋國會尊嚴啦我覺得其實應該大方授權不要去擔心說你怕說到時候去外國政府不配合或什麼的反而你授權我查證結果我查不出來反而變成你的背書我認為不要去擔心這個該做的事情就要做\n\n16\n00:05:59,380 --> 00:06:12,933\n不是,我想委員我們也很想做,但是這個一定是有它的執行上的困難因為如果我們變成一個查證機構的話,那我們要有很多權力\n\n17\n00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:32,074\n而且你知道外國的政府有很多根本跟我們沒有任何邦交關係啊你是透過外交部做查證的工作事實上他也是有很多他的困難所以如果立法院他必須對\n\n18\n00:06:33,335 --> 00:06:48,652\n所有的國家做查證的話那我們是不是立法院就必須要對至少有一百多個國家你都要去查證說他沒有國籍那這樣子事實上我們做不來每一次立法委員如果有這樣的事情的時候\n\n19\n00:06:49,741 --> 00:07:14,944\n都是頭條都是大事情該不會就是因為歷屆的立法院都只有用信任這樣來看待我今天講了其實我之前去詢問公務員任用法主管機關不管我問人總不管我問這個選區部坦白講回頭我當然考量到說每個公務人員都要去查查不完但是連立法委員就這麼樣\n\n20\n00:07:17,506 --> 00:07:29,341\n113個席次我們立法院自己公然跟人家講我們做不到然後每次都是有問題的時候對不對大家來推諉我認為這樣不對我也沒有擴及到全部的民選公職啊\n\n21\n00:07:31,227 --> 00:07:48,853\n我們當然只對我們的立法委員你要知道這裡面不是什麼信不信任也不是說這是資格不資格這裡面還包含國安問題你知道嗎他已經升級到其實應該去檢視對不對每一個立法委員身為中華民國立法委員對國家應有的責任對國家應有的義務對自己應該有的要求啊\n\n22\n00:07:52,754 --> 00:08:21,159\n對啊,所以他就是他並是以造實以告啊他如果沒有,他就要講沒有啊他如果欺騙,他就是欺騙行為,他要負責啊他負什麼責?他當然要負責啊,他就是欺騙行為,我沒有告他啊最後你免除他職務的時候,他什麼罪都沒有啊怎麼會沒有罪?誤罪,你去看那個判決,判決的誤罪那個是,那個當然他的判決是那樣子當然我們是不是對他的判決就是\n\n23\n00:08:22,768 --> 00:08:38,293\n永遠就是這樣子覺得我們還保持質疑我總結你的話你就是因為說世界上國家這麼多所以我們實在是沒有能力去查證不是不是你要告訴我一個你是站在\n\n24\n00:08:39,293 --> 00:08:59,694\n國家安全國家責任立法委員義務還是你是站在人力物力不足無從查證還是你擔心說我查了如果沒查好反而會是幫他們背書但是你不能全部丟給就是說你們對我信任啊不能這樣子啦我是覺得這個\n\n25\n00:09:02,060 --> 00:09:05,709\n是像我們這樣的處理,我是覺得可能在整個規劃裡面會變成一個\n\n26\n00:09:09,912 --> 00:09:31,080\n可以說是可以執行而且也是可以相當適合的一個方式但是總是發生事情的時候你們就會新聞相關單位去查了新聞外交部外管當然有人質疑的時候我們都會去查我現在就要請教您\n\n27\n00:09:33,936 --> 00:09:58,967\n以後是怎麼樣好不要說今天湯惠正林思敏江永昌今天問一問新聞寫出來了我說你們以後啟動對我們的信任調查是靠什麼要件你總要有一個機制吧你也不是說今天院長副院長秘書長高興了這個人新聞很大查一下或者這個人新聞很大沒關係這只是道聽途說那個人其實我們有所懷疑\n\n28\n00:09:59,747 --> 00:10:24,382\n不會吧你不會是靠這個吧那你至少告訴我如果你都只靠信任只靠切結我沒有擴及到全部的公務員我沒有擴及到全部的民選公職我現在就講113席的立法委員包括政府院長你總要有一個你的SOP是什麼吧就是說當什麼事情到什麼時候我們那張切結書形同廢紙那我們又沒有授權給你們的時候你們是依照什麼東西去查我們\n\n29\n00:10:25,402 --> 00:10:53,862\n還是說不是靠你們查是靠內政部依照國籍法當中我們不可以任公職內政部啟動調查我不曉得因為在立法院根據公職人員選報法當中沒有立法院的規則沒有回頭來看就是一個國籍法連公務人員任用法28條第一項第二款也都與我們是有距離的那你沒辦法你沒標準\n\n30\n00:10:54,810 --> 00:11:03,470\n你沒有做作業規範那我都不知道啦我今天就在這邊我說我懷疑湯惠珍跟林思敏啊我今天就在這裡講啊好了講完了咧\n\n31\n00:11:05,578 --> 00:11:32,470\n委員你是這樣子啦不不這要對全體國人來負責不要每一次我知道那如果說你要立法院去查查證不是不是就是說至少我們至少也要有一個法令依據讓我們有最簡單我們不是寫切結書給你們我們寫授權書給你們就好像總統副總統他們寫的就是授權書那你知道我們公務人員體系公務人員任用法第28條\n\n32\n00:11:34,011 --> 00:11:53,905\n如果碰到第一項第二款的時候有沒有不得外國籍的他們是寫拒絕書好我知道那個範圍都比較大因為非常多人不可能足以去查但是起碼國會自律以後立委關於外國國籍不是寫切結書給你們那個信任是假的嗎因為就是有人犯錯犯過\n\n33\n00:11:55,629 --> 00:12:11,017\n但是原則上然後我們寫授權書給你們委員我知道啦你這樣子的考量我們但是授權給你們不是你們去查你們一旦拿到這個授權之後你們就可以會相關的部會機關原則上我還是\n\n34\n00:12:12,317 --> 00:12:36,304\n覺得我們對立法委員的信任這個信任我覺得還是非常重要因為你當一個立委你被人民所附託你當然要誠實以告連你這個誠實都沒有我覺得當然你就變成欺騙我們是你欺騙我們所以我是覺得如果用這個竊決書的方式我是覺得事實上\n\n35\n00:12:37,079 --> 00:13:03,277\n對於立法委員的尊重還有對於整個執行上面我覺得目前來講應該還是一個最好的方式那民主黨我的重點是這個單一立法委員不值得信任那不值得信任是立法委員的問題啊我把這句話講完但整體的過會值得人民信賴所以不要發生事情的時候立法院來發一個新聞稿說那個立法委員他切結寫假的謝謝大家\n\n36\n00:13:04,406 --> 00:13:28,505\n不是吧我們信賴的是國會啊我跟你講立法委員各區域包含不分區百工百業行行色色各樣的民眾大家不同的角度選擇出來的民意代表對不對我講我們現在是排黑排得很嚴重但是過去也有跟深人當選立法委員嘛有的東西不是靠信任啦\n\n37\n00:13:29,426 --> 00:13:57,451\n我們要信任的是國會啊我們要信賴國會啊不是不是說靠你們對靠立法院秘書長對立法委員的切結書你不是信任我啊國會所以你要維持我們是國家的所以您是不是應該要維持我們的國會被民眾信任當然是嘛我是基於這一點啊是啊那我們現在目前所做的方式就是這樣子啊\n\n38\n00:13:57,731 --> 00:14:18,222\n不不不,您剛剛的講法都是說你要到時候這個立法委員他自己去以招公信說你看你這切結亂寫我是覺得我們一般來講如果我們進到比如說到美國海關等等或者是有一些我們也是他叫你說你有沒有帶毒品你自己切結啊\n\n39\n00:14:19,122 --> 00:14:39,473\n你沒有我信任你沒有啊但是如果你有我抓到當然是重懲啊你欺騙我們啊你怎麼可以這樣做那是你個人的問題啊對於我們立法委員我們認為一個立法委員既然他已經是個立法委員而且他也可能是人民所托或者是一個政黨所托的我們原則上\n\n40\n00:14:40,478 --> 00:14:57,207\n就以信任為主我們告訴他很清楚你是在講刑事上偵查上的不自證己罪還是你在講說有一個人帶的毒品要過海關然後自己還寫說我有帶毒品不會發生這種事吧我再講一次\n\n41\n00:14:57,947 --> 00:15:24,280\n在座哪一個有理性的人告訴我誰攜帶毒品過海關還會自己寫說我有帶毒品我覺得你律師長我尊重你但是你這個扯遠了把它拉回來我在講的是國會你不要把它丟給一個單一立法委員的切結那我知道你沒有我只能說也許您線下沒有答案但國人的期待不是如此我今天的詢答\n\n42\n00:15:25,216 --> 00:15:43,679\n我心內心答我真的是心中把立法院放在非常高的位置我沒有擴及到其他民選公職我沒有擴及到今天考試院也有來我沒有擴及到全部的公務人員但就113席韓政府院長這個不具外國籍這個已經到\n\n43\n00:15:44,893 --> 00:16:02,342\n國安的層次甚至是這個國家的義務跟責任以及國會的信賴國會的信任這不該只是靠那一張切結那再研究看看再想想看那個委員原則上我也感謝你的發言事實上你所提的任何的一些\n\n44\n00:16:02,862 --> 00:16:27,591\n意見包括立法院的一些條例其實我都長久以來我都非常佩服因為我覺得你常常都看到一些我們沒有看到但是針對這一個部分你所提的那個意見原則上我還是會把它接納而且我們也會回去好好再想除了切結之外是不是還有更好的方式來做這樣子的問題\n\n45\n00:16:28,391 --> 00:16:49,052\n但是我們對立法院的尊重我們還是會維持只是你所提的這些說我們是不是可以變成切結改成所謂授權這樣子的方式會更好我感謝還有後面這個公務人員任用法他們如果有外國籍任用後發\n\n46\n00:16:50,713 --> 00:17:11,908\n發現了原來他任用的時候一具外國籍這種東西他被這個什麼他被那個撤銷任用的時候他是要追還幾戶喔這個在我們立法院立法委員就算被發現說結果原來你就職了你也沒有什麼一年內放棄什麼的這個你去查一下因為我最後看到的是我們雖然要追但是\n\n47\n00:17:12,984 --> 00:17:32,203\n於法無據是沒什麼可以追所以這一點也很重要謝謝委員你提出這一點那這樣子的話事實上你講的這些事情的話我們會好好的研究一下也許你這樣的意見還有將來我們如果說他真的是\n\n48\n00:17:33,103 --> 00:17:50,855\n等於是欺瞞我們,造成他本身本來就有外國籍那這樣子的話,我們將來要追討他的一些薪資奉獻等等也有一個依據啦所以這個我覺得一併我們來把它考量\n\n49\n00:17:51,175 --> 00:18:15,516\n因為這次的事件傷害很深啊人家說你有沒有外國籍他說原來已經在立法院做部分區海量子彈飛了兩個禮拜在那邊講來講去這沒有道理這對國會的形象有沒有這個其實是傷害很大事實上好啦我覺得我們還是接納那個委員的意見我們來好好考慮一下我想很多我們的國民說原來是切結喔\n\n50\n00:18:16,873 --> 00:18:42,926\n不好意思講說真好笑但是我覺得這樣我們應該嚴肅看待沒有啦我是很尊重你但我覺得這個題目應該要更努力一些我非常感謝委員您所提出的這個善意的一個建議而且你這個建議的確也值得我們深思來考慮那我們會把它納入來考慮也許如果\n\n51\n00:18:43,826 --> 00:18:45,591\n找到一個更好的方法,我們會來做處理,謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n933\t23303\t他現在是國籍法第20條相關規定好那就很奇怪齁其實你要知道那為什麼這次總統副總統有沒有外國籍社會嘩然他最後有去查證你知道為什麼難道也是看國籍法嗎事實上他前面這裡有一個總統副總統他的選拔法當中直接就在裡面寫不可以具有外國籍\n24500\t42834\t那麼在他們要登記的時候就直接授權主管機關或中選會相關機關可以去做查證也就是說他兩個加起來他當然有國際法可是他前面一開始在總統副總統選爆法當中就告訴你明白告訴你不行那立法委員是公職嗎\n44386\t65322\t立法委員是公職對 也是廣義的公務員等一下我會講到公務員認證用法28條我現在先講了但是我們民選公職有沒有在選拔法當中卻沒有直接把不得具有外國籍直接寫在裡面然後後來又去看國籍法當中就是不得 擔任立法委員不得具有那個外國身份\n67270\t87326\t但是又沒有授權你啦沒有像總統副總統選發法當中直接規定的所以就沒有授權你去查所以我們搞什麼你知道嗎我們搞竊結書啊這很不好啊就是說我不曉得就是說為什麼我們這麼長久以來其實以前也有立法委員發聲過\n89199\t111016\t結果我告訴你後來一追下去之後他所有的刑事判決違照文書不起訴我就不要講哪個立法委員前任立法委員利用職務榨取財務罪無罪然後行政上面請求返還他任內的薪資助理費補助費奉給給付等等法院都判不必返還\n112515\t139821\t也就是說我們對這個事情這麼重視但是其實我們進來的時候是寫切結書那我們發生事情的時候什麼都無罪什麼都沒事那給付也不用返還這兩個東西要補正一個是我認為啦那立法院去想修法說也許民選公職這麼多對不對那起碼我們立法委員是高度重視啦在這當中我們不要再像其他的民選公職一樣就是寫個切結書不是不是我們自己深等嘛\n140819\t157885\t其實可以啊 授權你去查證啊 要不然現在如果萬一發生的時候 你要知道喔如果他有 如果我們選上之後才發現在選之前已經具有外國籍身份的時候是直接由立法院 立法委員是由立法院直接免除他職務喔\n159085\t184996\t那其他的公務員 假如用公務員任務法是在他的機關 被他的機關免職我們是直接被立法院 立法院靠什麼 沒有 靠你切結書到時候社會輿論有人檢舉 怎麼樣的時候我們再匆匆忙忙請相關單位也許拜託內政部外交部有沒有 再去跟國外查所以我們不敢立法進階去做授權查證是怕什麼 怕一旦我們\n185996\t210647\t我們有授權立法院查證的時候反而變成立法院來為立法委員是否具有外國籍來背書是怕這個嗎還是怕人力物力耗費頗大我們做不完嗎其實我剛剛講光是付出去的幾付沒有追回來那個錢就很多啊拿來辦這些行動用我說也許不要擴大到所有的民選公職國會這一層一定要把關注啊請回答我那個江委員原則上是這樣子對立法委員原則上他是應該\n214212\t234787\t他能不能當選等等他有一定的程序所以我們對立法委員的原則上我們是信任原則我不認為如此因為我們的竊結書就是依照國際法20條相關規定給他問他說本人就職\n237570\t265321\t幾屆立委時未取得國籍他如果是勾說是的我就是這樣子這是我的承諾我們你們給人家勾兩條一個是勾說你是不是有外國籍另外你們給人家勾的選項就是說如果你有的話請你去放棄然後你一年之內有沒有這也是依照法規定的民主黨你聽我講成恆輕重你就會發現了當我們民選公子你說用信任\n266141\t282337\t那我們公務人員任用法對不對我們用切解然後公務人員任用法28條當中第一項第二款具有外國籍也不行啊如果任用後發現他在任用時的時候具有外國籍有沒有那是撤銷任用耶那還要追還有沒有\n283078\t303391\t那坦白講 他們也不是授權查證欸 是靠拒絕書所以我說 連我們立委都靠竊竊公務機關對公務員製補者就有外國籍不得任用 撤銷任用他也在那邊搞說要拒絕至少人家還要追還喔 萬一你被檢舉查出來會追還我們也是追還喔 你用哪一條追還沒有沒有沒有 我剛講某位前立委\n310227\t327733\t法院沒有判他還但是我們有去追這是兩回事法律有站在你這邊你才追得到法律不站在你這邊我剛講了他不管是偽造文書跟榨取財物都是無罪因為他至少是欺騙我們嘛至少是欺騙我們啊我認為立法委員來國會服公職\n335475\t358838\t不是靠立法院秘書長 立法院院長 副院長對立法委員的信任 不是 不是那是糟蹋國會尊嚴啦我覺得其實應該大方授權不要去擔心說 你怕說到時候去外國政府不配合或什麼的反而你授權我查證 結果我查不出來反而變成你的背書我認為不要去擔心這個該做的事情就要做\n359380\t372933\t不是,我想委員我們也很想做,但是這個一定是有它的執行上的困難因為如果我們變成一個查證機構的話,那我們要有很多權力\n374520\t392074\t而且你知道外國的政府有很多根本跟我們沒有任何邦交關係啊你是透過外交部做查證的工作事實上他也是有很多他的困難所以如果立法院他必須對\n393335\t408652\t所有的國家做查證的話那我們是不是立法院就必須要對至少有一百多個國家你都要去查證說他沒有國籍那這樣子事實上我們做不來每一次立法委員如果有這樣的事情的時候\n409741\t434944\t都是頭條都是大事情該不會就是因為歷屆的立法院都只有用信任這樣來看待我今天講了其實我之前去詢問公務員任用法主管機關不管我問人總不管我問這個選區部坦白講回頭我當然考量到說每個公務人員都要去查查不完但是連立法委員就這麼樣\n437506\t449341\t113個席次我們立法院自己公然跟人家講我們做不到然後每次都是有問題的時候對不對大家來推諉 我認為這樣不對我也沒有擴及到全部的民選公職啊\n451227\t468853\t我們當然只對我們的立法委員你要知道這裡面不是什麼信不信任也不是說這是資格不資格這裡面還包含國安問題你知道嗎他已經升級到其實應該去檢視對不對每一個立法委員身為中華民國立法委員對國家應有的責任對國家應有的義務對自己應該有的要求啊\n472754\t501159\t對啊,所以他就是他並是以造實以告啊他如果沒有,他就要講沒有啊他如果欺騙,他就是欺騙行為,他要負責啊他負什麼責?他當然要負責啊,他就是欺騙行為,我沒有告他啊最後你免除他職務的時候,他什麼罪都沒有啊怎麼會沒有罪?誤罪,你去看那個判決,判決的誤罪那個是,那個當然他的判決是那樣子當然我們是不是對他的判決就是\n502768\t518293\t永遠就是這樣子覺得我們還保持質疑我總結你的話你就是因為說世界上國家這麼多所以我們實在是沒有能力去查證不是不是你要告訴我一個你是站在\n519293\t539694\t國家安全國家責任立法委員義務還是你是站在人力物力不足無從查證還是你擔心說我查了如果沒查好反而會是幫他們背書但是你不能全部丟給就是說你們對我信任啊不能這樣子啦我是覺得這個\n542060\t545709\t是像我們這樣的處理,我是覺得可能在整個規劃裡面會變成一個\n549912\t571080\t可以說是可以執行而且也是可以相當適合的一個方式但是總是發生事情的時候你們就會新聞相關單位去查了新聞外交部外管當然有人質疑的時候我們都會去查我現在就要請教您\n573936\t598967\t以後是怎麼樣好不要說今天湯惠正林思敏江永昌今天問一問新聞寫出來了我說你們以後啟動對我們的信任調查是靠什麼要件你總要有一個機制吧你也不是說今天院長副院長秘書長高興了這個人新聞很大查一下或者這個人新聞很大沒關係這只是道聽途說那個人其實我們有所懷疑\n599747\t624382\t不會吧 你不會是靠這個吧 那你至少告訴我如果你都只靠信任 只靠切結我沒有擴及到全部的公務員 我沒有擴及到全部的民選公職我現在就講113席的立法委員 包括政府院長你總要有一個你的SOP是什麼吧就是說當什麼事情到什麼時候 我們那張切結書形同廢紙那我們又沒有授權給你們的時候 你們是依照什麼東西去查我們\n625402\t653862\t還是說不是靠你們查是靠內政部依照國籍法當中我們不可以任公職內政部啟動調查我不曉得因為在立法院根據公職人員選報法當中沒有立法院的規則沒有回頭來看就是一個國籍法連公務人員任用法28條第一項第二款也都與我們是有距離的那你沒辦法你沒標準\n654810\t663470\t你沒有做作業規範那我都不知道啦我今天就在這邊我說我懷疑湯惠珍跟林思敏啊我今天就在這裡講啊好了講完了咧\n665578\t692470\t委員你是這樣子啦 不不 這要對全體國人來負責 不要每一次我知道 那如果說你要立法院去查 查證不是不是 就是說至少我們至少也要有一個法令依據讓我們有最簡單 我們不是寫切結書給你們 我們寫授權書給你們就好像總統副總統他們寫的就是授權書那你知道我們公務人員體系 公務人員任用法第28條\n694011\t713905\t如果碰到第一項第二款的時候有沒有不得外國籍的他們是寫拒絕書好 我知道那個範圍都比較大因為非常多人不可能足以去查但是起碼國會自律以後立委關於外國國籍不是寫切結書給你們那個信任是假的嗎因為就是有人犯錯犯過\n715629\t731017\t但是原則上然後我們寫授權書給你們委員我知道啦你這樣子的考量我們但是授權給你們不是你們去查你們一旦拿到這個授權之後你們就可以會相關的部會機關原則上我還是\n732317\t756304\t覺得我們對立法委員的信任這個信任我覺得還是非常重要因為你當一個立委你被人民所附託你當然要誠實以告連你這個誠實都沒有我覺得當然你就變成欺騙我們是你欺騙我們所以我是覺得如果用這個竊決書的方式我是覺得事實上\n757079\t783277\t對於立法委員的尊重 還有對於整個執行上面我覺得目前來講 應該還是一個最好的方式那民主黨 我的重點是這個 單一立法委員不值得信任那不值得信任是立法委員的問題啊我把這句話講完 但整體的過會 值得人民信賴所以 不要發生事情的時候 立法院來發一個新聞稿說那個立法委員他切結寫假的 謝謝大家\n784406\t808505\t不是吧 我們信賴的是國會啊我跟你講 立法委員各區域 包含不分區 百工百業 行行色色各樣的民眾 大家不同的角度 選擇出來的民意代表 對不對我講 我們現在是排黑排得很嚴重 但是過去也有跟深人當選立法委員嘛有的東西不是靠信任啦\n809426\t837451\t我們要信任的是國會啊我們要信賴國會啊不是不是說靠你們對靠立法院秘書長對立法委員的切結書你不是信任我啊國會所以你要維持我們是國家的所以您是不是應該要維持我們的國會被民眾信任當然是嘛我是基於這一點啊是啊那我們現在目前所做的方式就是這樣子啊\n837731\t858222\t不不不,您剛剛的講法都是說你要到時候這個立法委員他自己去以招公信說你看你這切結亂寫我是覺得我們一般來講如果我們進到比如說到美國海關等等或者是有一些我們也是他叫你說你有沒有帶毒品你自己切結啊\n859122\t879473\t你沒有 我信任你沒有啊 但是如果你有 我抓到 當然是重懲啊你欺騙我們啊 你怎麼可以這樣做 那是你個人的問題啊對於我們立法委員 我們認為一個立法委員 既然他已經是個立法委員而且他也可能是人民所托 或者是一個政黨所托的 我們原則上\n880478\t897207\t就以信任為主我們告訴他很清楚你是在講刑事上偵查上的不自證己罪還是你在講說有一個人帶的毒品要過海關然後自己還寫說我有帶毒品不會發生這種事吧我再講一次\n897947\t924280\t在座哪一個有理性的人告訴我誰攜帶毒品過海關還會自己寫說我有帶毒品我覺得你律師長我尊重你但是你這個扯遠了把它拉回來我在講的是國會你不要把它丟給一個單一立法委員的切結那我知道你沒有我只能說也許您線下沒有答案但國人的期待不是如此我今天的詢答\n925216\t943679\t我心內心答我真的是心中把立法院放在非常高的位置我沒有擴及到其他民選公職我沒有擴及到今天考試院也有來我沒有擴及到全部的公務人員但就113席韓政府院長這個不具外國籍這個已經到\n944893\t962342\t國安的層次甚至是這個國家的義務跟責任以及國會的信賴國會的信任這不該只是靠那一張切結那再研究看看再想想看那個委員原則上我也感謝你的發言事實上你所提的任何的一些\n962862\t987591\t意見包括立法院的一些條例其實我都長久以來我都非常佩服因為我覺得你常常都看到一些我們沒有看到但是針對這一個部分你所提的那個意見原則上我還是會把它接納而且我們也會回去好好再想除了切結之外是不是還有更好的方式來做這樣子的問題\n988391\t1009052\t但是我們對立法院的尊重我們還是會維持只是你所提的這些說我們是不是可以變成切結改成所謂授權這樣子的方式會更好我感謝還有後面這個公務人員任用法他們如果有外國籍任用後發\n1010713\t1031908\t發現了原來他任用的時候一具外國籍這種東西他被這個什麼他被那個撤銷任用的時候他是要追還幾戶喔這個在我們立法院立法委員就算被發現說結果原來你就職了你也沒有什麼一年內放棄什麼的這個你去查一下因為我最後看到的是我們雖然要追但是\n1032984\t1052203\t於法無據是沒什麼可以追所以這一點也很重要謝謝委員你提出這一點那這樣子的話事實上你講的這些事情的話我們會好好的研究一下也許你這樣的意見還有將來我們如果說他真的是\n1053103\t1070855\t等於是欺瞞我們,造成他本身本來就有外國籍那這樣子的話,我們將來要追討他的一些薪資奉獻等等也有一個依據啦所以這個我覺得一併我們來把它考量\n1071175\t1095516\t因為這次的事件傷害很深啊人家說你有沒有外國籍他說原來已經在立法院做部分區海量子彈飛了兩個禮拜在那邊講來講去這沒有道理這對國會的形象有沒有這個其實是傷害很大事實上好啦我覺得我們還是接納那個委員的意見我們來好好考慮一下我想很多我們的國民說原來是切結喔\n1096873\t1122926\t不好意思講說真好笑但是我覺得這樣我們應該嚴肅看待沒有啦我是很尊重你但我覺得這個題目應該要更努力一些我非常感謝委員您所提出的這個善意的一個建議而且你這個建議的確也值得我們深思來考慮那我們會把它納入來考慮也許如果\n1123826\t1125591\t找到一個更好的方法,我們會來做處理,謝謝委員\n","txt":"他現在是國籍法第20條相關規定好那就很奇怪齁其實你要知道那為什麼這次總統副總統有沒有外國籍社會嘩然他最後有去查證你知道為什麼難道也是看國籍法嗎事實上他前面這裡有一個總統副總統他的選拔法當中直接就在裡面寫不可以具有外國籍\n那麼在他們要登記的時候就直接授權主管機關或中選會相關機關可以去做查證也就是說他兩個加起來他當然有國際法可是他前面一開始在總統副總統選爆法當中就告訴你明白告訴你不行那立法委員是公職嗎\n立法委員是公職對 也是廣義的公務員等一下我會講到公務員認證用法28條我現在先講了但是我們民選公職有沒有在選拔法當中卻沒有直接把不得具有外國籍直接寫在裡面然後後來又去看國籍法當中就是不得 擔任立法委員不得具有那個外國身份\n但是又沒有授權你啦沒有像總統副總統選發法當中直接規定的所以就沒有授權你去查所以我們搞什麼你知道嗎我們搞竊結書啊這很不好啊就是說我不曉得就是說為什麼我們這麼長久以來其實以前也有立法委員發聲過\n結果我告訴你後來一追下去之後他所有的刑事判決違照文書不起訴我就不要講哪個立法委員前任立法委員利用職務榨取財務罪無罪然後行政上面請求返還他任內的薪資助理費補助費奉給給付等等法院都判不必返還\n也就是說我們對這個事情這麼重視但是其實我們進來的時候是寫切結書那我們發生事情的時候什麼都無罪什麼都沒事那給付也不用返還這兩個東西要補正一個是我認為啦那立法院去想修法說也許民選公職這麼多對不對那起碼我們立法委員是高度重視啦在這當中我們不要再像其他的民選公職一樣就是寫個切結書不是不是我們自己深等嘛\n其實可以啊 授權你去查證啊 要不然現在如果萬一發生的時候 你要知道喔如果他有 如果我們選上之後才發現在選之前已經具有外國籍身份的時候是直接由立法院 立法委員是由立法院直接免除他職務喔\n那其他的公務員 假如用公務員任務法是在他的機關 被他的機關免職我們是直接被立法院 立法院靠什麼 沒有 靠你切結書到時候社會輿論有人檢舉 怎麼樣的時候我們再匆匆忙忙請相關單位也許拜託內政部外交部有沒有 再去跟國外查所以我們不敢立法進階去做授權查證是怕什麼 怕一旦我們\n我們有授權立法院查證的時候反而變成立法院來為立法委員是否具有外國籍來背書是怕這個嗎還是怕人力物力耗費頗大我們做不完嗎其實我剛剛講光是付出去的幾付沒有追回來那個錢就很多啊拿來辦這些行動用我說也許不要擴大到所有的民選公職國會這一層一定要把關注啊請回答我那個江委員原則上是這樣子對立法委員原則上他是應該\n他能不能當選等等他有一定的程序所以我們對立法委員的原則上我們是信任原則我不認為如此因為我們的竊結書就是依照國際法20條相關規定給他問他說本人就職\n幾屆立委時未取得國籍他如果是勾說是的我就是這樣子這是我的承諾我們你們給人家勾兩條一個是勾說你是不是有外國籍另外你們給人家勾的選項就是說如果你有的話請你去放棄然後你一年之內有沒有這也是依照法規定的民主黨你聽我講成恆輕重你就會發現了當我們民選公子你說用信任\n那我們公務人員任用法對不對我們用切解然後公務人員任用法28條當中第一項第二款具有外國籍也不行啊如果任用後發現他在任用時的時候具有外國籍有沒有那是撤銷任用耶那還要追還有沒有\n那坦白講 他們也不是授權查證欸 是靠拒絕書所以我說 連我們立委都靠竊竊公務機關對公務員製補者就有外國籍不得任用 撤銷任用他也在那邊搞說要拒絕至少人家還要追還喔 萬一你被檢舉查出來會追還我們也是追還喔 你用哪一條追還沒有沒有沒有 我剛講某位前立委\n法院沒有判他還但是我們有去追這是兩回事法律有站在你這邊你才追得到法律不站在你這邊我剛講了他不管是偽造文書跟榨取財物都是無罪因為他至少是欺騙我們嘛至少是欺騙我們啊我認為立法委員來國會服公職\n不是靠立法院秘書長 立法院院長 副院長對立法委員的信任 不是 不是那是糟蹋國會尊嚴啦我覺得其實應該大方授權不要去擔心說 你怕說到時候去外國政府不配合或什麼的反而你授權我查證 結果我查不出來反而變成你的背書我認為不要去擔心這個該做的事情就要做\n不是,我想委員我們也很想做,但是這個一定是有它的執行上的困難因為如果我們變成一個查證機構的話,那我們要有很多權力\n而且你知道外國的政府有很多根本跟我們沒有任何邦交關係啊你是透過外交部做查證的工作事實上他也是有很多他的困難所以如果立法院他必須對\n所有的國家做查證的話那我們是不是立法院就必須要對至少有一百多個國家你都要去查證說他沒有國籍那這樣子事實上我們做不來每一次立法委員如果有這樣的事情的時候\n都是頭條都是大事情該不會就是因為歷屆的立法院都只有用信任這樣來看待我今天講了其實我之前去詢問公務員任用法主管機關不管我問人總不管我問這個選區部坦白講回頭我當然考量到說每個公務人員都要去查查不完但是連立法委員就這麼樣\n113個席次我們立法院自己公然跟人家講我們做不到然後每次都是有問題的時候對不對大家來推諉 我認為這樣不對我也沒有擴及到全部的民選公職啊\n我們當然只對我們的立法委員你要知道這裡面不是什麼信不信任也不是說這是資格不資格這裡面還包含國安問題你知道嗎他已經升級到其實應該去檢視對不對每一個立法委員身為中華民國立法委員對國家應有的責任對國家應有的義務對自己應該有的要求啊\n對啊,所以他就是他並是以造實以告啊他如果沒有,他就要講沒有啊他如果欺騙,他就是欺騙行為,他要負責啊他負什麼責?他當然要負責啊,他就是欺騙行為,我沒有告他啊最後你免除他職務的時候,他什麼罪都沒有啊怎麼會沒有罪?誤罪,你去看那個判決,判決的誤罪那個是,那個當然他的判決是那樣子當然我們是不是對他的判決就是\n永遠就是這樣子覺得我們還保持質疑我總結你的話你就是因為說世界上國家這麼多所以我們實在是沒有能力去查證不是不是你要告訴我一個你是站在\n國家安全國家責任立法委員義務還是你是站在人力物力不足無從查證還是你擔心說我查了如果沒查好反而會是幫他們背書但是你不能全部丟給就是說你們對我信任啊不能這樣子啦我是覺得這個\n是像我們這樣的處理,我是覺得可能在整個規劃裡面會變成一個\n可以說是可以執行而且也是可以相當適合的一個方式但是總是發生事情的時候你們就會新聞相關單位去查了新聞外交部外管當然有人質疑的時候我們都會去查我現在就要請教您\n以後是怎麼樣好不要說今天湯惠正林思敏江永昌今天問一問新聞寫出來了我說你們以後啟動對我們的信任調查是靠什麼要件你總要有一個機制吧你也不是說今天院長副院長秘書長高興了這個人新聞很大查一下或者這個人新聞很大沒關係這只是道聽途說那個人其實我們有所懷疑\n不會吧 你不會是靠這個吧 那你至少告訴我如果你都只靠信任 只靠切結我沒有擴及到全部的公務員 我沒有擴及到全部的民選公職我現在就講113席的立法委員 包括政府院長你總要有一個你的SOP是什麼吧就是說當什麼事情到什麼時候 我們那張切結書形同廢紙那我們又沒有授權給你們的時候 你們是依照什麼東西去查我們\n還是說不是靠你們查是靠內政部依照國籍法當中我們不可以任公職內政部啟動調查我不曉得因為在立法院根據公職人員選報法當中沒有立法院的規則沒有回頭來看就是一個國籍法連公務人員任用法28條第一項第二款也都與我們是有距離的那你沒辦法你沒標準\n你沒有做作業規範那我都不知道啦我今天就在這邊我說我懷疑湯惠珍跟林思敏啊我今天就在這裡講啊好了講完了咧\n委員你是這樣子啦 不不 這要對全體國人來負責 不要每一次我知道 那如果說你要立法院去查 查證不是不是 就是說至少我們至少也要有一個法令依據讓我們有最簡單 我們不是寫切結書給你們 我們寫授權書給你們就好像總統副總統他們寫的就是授權書那你知道我們公務人員體系 公務人員任用法第28條\n如果碰到第一項第二款的時候有沒有不得外國籍的他們是寫拒絕書好 我知道那個範圍都比較大因為非常多人不可能足以去查但是起碼國會自律以後立委關於外國國籍不是寫切結書給你們那個信任是假的嗎因為就是有人犯錯犯過\n但是原則上然後我們寫授權書給你們委員我知道啦你這樣子的考量我們但是授權給你們不是你們去查你們一旦拿到這個授權之後你們就可以會相關的部會機關原則上我還是\n覺得我們對立法委員的信任這個信任我覺得還是非常重要因為你當一個立委你被人民所附託你當然要誠實以告連你這個誠實都沒有我覺得當然你就變成欺騙我們是你欺騙我們所以我是覺得如果用這個竊決書的方式我是覺得事實上\n對於立法委員的尊重 還有對於整個執行上面我覺得目前來講 應該還是一個最好的方式那民主黨 我的重點是這個 單一立法委員不值得信任那不值得信任是立法委員的問題啊我把這句話講完 但整體的過會 值得人民信賴所以 不要發生事情的時候 立法院來發一個新聞稿說那個立法委員他切結寫假的 謝謝大家\n不是吧 我們信賴的是國會啊我跟你講 立法委員各區域 包含不分區 百工百業 行行色色各樣的民眾 大家不同的角度 選擇出來的民意代表 對不對我講 我們現在是排黑排得很嚴重 但是過去也有跟深人當選立法委員嘛有的東西不是靠信任啦\n我們要信任的是國會啊我們要信賴國會啊不是不是說靠你們對靠立法院秘書長對立法委員的切結書你不是信任我啊國會所以你要維持我們是國家的所以您是不是應該要維持我們的國會被民眾信任當然是嘛我是基於這一點啊是啊那我們現在目前所做的方式就是這樣子啊\n不不不,您剛剛的講法都是說你要到時候這個立法委員他自己去以招公信說你看你這切結亂寫我是覺得我們一般來講如果我們進到比如說到美國海關等等或者是有一些我們也是他叫你說你有沒有帶毒品你自己切結啊\n你沒有 我信任你沒有啊 但是如果你有 我抓到 當然是重懲啊你欺騙我們啊 你怎麼可以這樣做 那是你個人的問題啊對於我們立法委員 我們認為一個立法委員 既然他已經是個立法委員而且他也可能是人民所托 或者是一個政黨所托的 我們原則上\n就以信任為主我們告訴他很清楚你是在講刑事上偵查上的不自證己罪還是你在講說有一個人帶的毒品要過海關然後自己還寫說我有帶毒品不會發生這種事吧我再講一次\n在座哪一個有理性的人告訴我誰攜帶毒品過海關還會自己寫說我有帶毒品我覺得你律師長我尊重你但是你這個扯遠了把它拉回來我在講的是國會你不要把它丟給一個單一立法委員的切結那我知道你沒有我只能說也許您線下沒有答案但國人的期待不是如此我今天的詢答\n我心內心答我真的是心中把立法院放在非常高的位置我沒有擴及到其他民選公職我沒有擴及到今天考試院也有來我沒有擴及到全部的公務人員但就113席韓政府院長這個不具外國籍這個已經到\n國安的層次甚至是這個國家的義務跟責任以及國會的信賴國會的信任這不該只是靠那一張切結那再研究看看再想想看那個委員原則上我也感謝你的發言事實上你所提的任何的一些\n意見包括立法院的一些條例其實我都長久以來我都非常佩服因為我覺得你常常都看到一些我們沒有看到但是針對這一個部分你所提的那個意見原則上我還是會把它接納而且我們也會回去好好再想除了切結之外是不是還有更好的方式來做這樣子的問題\n但是我們對立法院的尊重我們還是會維持只是你所提的這些說我們是不是可以變成切結改成所謂授權這樣子的方式會更好我感謝還有後面這個公務人員任用法他們如果有外國籍任用後發\n發現了原來他任用的時候一具外國籍這種東西他被這個什麼他被那個撤銷任用的時候他是要追還幾戶喔這個在我們立法院立法委員就算被發現說結果原來你就職了你也沒有什麼一年內放棄什麼的這個你去查一下因為我最後看到的是我們雖然要追但是\n於法無據是沒什麼可以追所以這一點也很重要謝謝委員你提出這一點那這樣子的話事實上你講的這些事情的話我們會好好的研究一下也許你這樣的意見還有將來我們如果說他真的是\n等於是欺瞞我們,造成他本身本來就有外國籍那這樣子的話,我們將來要追討他的一些薪資奉獻等等也有一個依據啦所以這個我覺得一併我們來把它考量\n因為這次的事件傷害很深啊人家說你有沒有外國籍他說原來已經在立法院做部分區海量子彈飛了兩個禮拜在那邊講來講去這沒有道理這對國會的形象有沒有這個其實是傷害很大事實上好啦我覺得我們還是接納那個委員的意見我們來好好考慮一下我想很多我們的國民說原來是切結喔\n不好意思講說真好笑但是我覺得這樣我們應該嚴肅看待沒有啦我是很尊重你但我覺得這個題目應該要更努力一些我非常感謝委員您所提出的這個善意的一個建議而且你這個建議的確也值得我們深思來考慮那我們會把它納入來考慮也許如果\n找到一個更好的方法,我們會來做處理,謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.933 --> 00:23.303\n他現在是國籍法第20條相關規定好那就很奇怪齁其實你要知道那為什麼這次總統副總統有沒有外國籍社會嘩然他最後有去查證你知道為什麼難道也是看國籍法嗎事實上他前面這裡有一個總統副總統他的選拔法當中直接就在裡面寫不可以具有外國籍\n\n00:24.500 --> 00:42.834\n那麼在他們要登記的時候就直接授權主管機關或中選會相關機關可以去做查證也就是說他兩個加起來他當然有國際法可是他前面一開始在總統副總統選爆法當中就告訴你明白告訴你不行那立法委員是公職嗎\n\n00:44.386 --> 01:05.322\n立法委員是公職對也是廣義的公務員等一下我會講到公務員認證用法28條我現在先講了但是我們民選公職有沒有在選拔法當中卻沒有直接把不得具有外國籍直接寫在裡面然後後來又去看國籍法當中就是不得擔任立法委員不得具有那個外國身份\n\n01:07.270 --> 01:27.326\n但是又沒有授權你啦沒有像總統副總統選發法當中直接規定的所以就沒有授權你去查所以我們搞什麼你知道嗎我們搞竊結書啊這很不好啊就是說我不曉得就是說為什麼我們這麼長久以來其實以前也有立法委員發聲過\n\n01:29.199 --> 01:51.016\n結果我告訴你後來一追下去之後他所有的刑事判決違照文書不起訴我就不要講哪個立法委員前任立法委員利用職務榨取財務罪無罪然後行政上面請求返還他任內的薪資助理費補助費奉給給付等等法院都判不必返還\n\n01:52.515 --> 02:19.821\n也就是說我們對這個事情這麼重視但是其實我們進來的時候是寫切結書那我們發生事情的時候什麼都無罪什麼都沒事那給付也不用返還這兩個東西要補正一個是我認為啦那立法院去想修法說也許民選公職這麼多對不對那起碼我們立法委員是高度重視啦在這當中我們不要再像其他的民選公職一樣就是寫個切結書不是不是我們自己深等嘛\n\n02:20.819 --> 02:37.885\n其實可以啊授權你去查證啊要不然現在如果萬一發生的時候你要知道喔如果他有如果我們選上之後才發現在選之前已經具有外國籍身份的時候是直接由立法院立法委員是由立法院直接免除他職務喔\n\n02:39.085 --> 03:04.996\n那其他的公務員假如用公務員任務法是在他的機關被他的機關免職我們是直接被立法院立法院靠什麼沒有靠你切結書到時候社會輿論有人檢舉怎麼樣的時候我們再匆匆忙忙請相關單位也許拜託內政部外交部有沒有再去跟國外查所以我們不敢立法進階去做授權查證是怕什麼怕一旦我們\n\n03:05.996 --> 03:30.647\n我們有授權立法院查證的時候反而變成立法院來為立法委員是否具有外國籍來背書是怕這個嗎還是怕人力物力耗費頗大我們做不完嗎其實我剛剛講光是付出去的幾付沒有追回來那個錢就很多啊拿來辦這些行動用我說也許不要擴大到所有的民選公職國會這一層一定要把關注啊請回答我那個江委員原則上是這樣子對立法委員原則上他是應該\n\n03:34.212 --> 03:54.787\n他能不能當選等等他有一定的程序所以我們對立法委員的原則上我們是信任原則我不認為如此因為我們的竊結書就是依照國際法20條相關規定給他問他說本人就職\n\n03:57.570 --> 04:25.321\n幾屆立委時未取得國籍他如果是勾說是的我就是這樣子這是我的承諾我們你們給人家勾兩條一個是勾說你是不是有外國籍另外你們給人家勾的選項就是說如果你有的話請你去放棄然後你一年之內有沒有這也是依照法規定的民主黨你聽我講成恆輕重你就會發現了當我們民選公子你說用信任\n\n04:26.141 --> 04:42.337\n那我們公務人員任用法對不對我們用切解然後公務人員任用法28條當中第一項第二款具有外國籍也不行啊如果任用後發現他在任用時的時候具有外國籍有沒有那是撤銷任用耶那還要追還有沒有\n\n04:43.078 --> 05:03.391\n那坦白講他們也不是授權查證欸是靠拒絕書所以我說連我們立委都靠竊竊公務機關對公務員製補者就有外國籍不得任用撤銷任用他也在那邊搞說要拒絕至少人家還要追還喔萬一你被檢舉查出來會追還我們也是追還喔你用哪一條追還沒有沒有沒有我剛講某位前立委\n\n05:10.227 --> 05:27.733\n法院沒有判他還但是我們有去追這是兩回事法律有站在你這邊你才追得到法律不站在你這邊我剛講了他不管是偽造文書跟榨取財物都是無罪因為他至少是欺騙我們嘛至少是欺騙我們啊我認為立法委員來國會服公職\n\n05:35.475 --> 05:58.838\n不是靠立法院秘書長立法院院長副院長對立法委員的信任不是不是那是糟蹋國會尊嚴啦我覺得其實應該大方授權不要去擔心說你怕說到時候去外國政府不配合或什麼的反而你授權我查證結果我查不出來反而變成你的背書我認為不要去擔心這個該做的事情就要做\n\n05:59.380 --> 06:12.933\n不是,我想委員我們也很想做,但是這個一定是有它的執行上的困難因為如果我們變成一個查證機構的話,那我們要有很多權力\n\n06:14.520 --> 06:32.074\n而且你知道外國的政府有很多根本跟我們沒有任何邦交關係啊你是透過外交部做查證的工作事實上他也是有很多他的困難所以如果立法院他必須對\n\n06:33.335 --> 06:48.652\n所有的國家做查證的話那我們是不是立法院就必須要對至少有一百多個國家你都要去查證說他沒有國籍那這樣子事實上我們做不來每一次立法委員如果有這樣的事情的時候\n\n06:49.741 --> 07:14.944\n都是頭條都是大事情該不會就是因為歷屆的立法院都只有用信任這樣來看待我今天講了其實我之前去詢問公務員任用法主管機關不管我問人總不管我問這個選區部坦白講回頭我當然考量到說每個公務人員都要去查查不完但是連立法委員就這麼樣\n\n07:17.506 --> 07:29.341\n113個席次我們立法院自己公然跟人家講我們做不到然後每次都是有問題的時候對不對大家來推諉我認為這樣不對我也沒有擴及到全部的民選公職啊\n\n07:31.227 --> 07:48.853\n我們當然只對我們的立法委員你要知道這裡面不是什麼信不信任也不是說這是資格不資格這裡面還包含國安問題你知道嗎他已經升級到其實應該去檢視對不對每一個立法委員身為中華民國立法委員對國家應有的責任對國家應有的義務對自己應該有的要求啊\n\n07:52.754 --> 08:21.159\n對啊,所以他就是他並是以造實以告啊他如果沒有,他就要講沒有啊他如果欺騙,他就是欺騙行為,他要負責啊他負什麼責?他當然要負責啊,他就是欺騙行為,我沒有告他啊最後你免除他職務的時候,他什麼罪都沒有啊怎麼會沒有罪?誤罪,你去看那個判決,判決的誤罪那個是,那個當然他的判決是那樣子當然我們是不是對他的判決就是\n\n08:22.768 --> 08:38.293\n永遠就是這樣子覺得我們還保持質疑我總結你的話你就是因為說世界上國家這麼多所以我們實在是沒有能力去查證不是不是你要告訴我一個你是站在\n\n08:39.293 --> 08:59.694\n國家安全國家責任立法委員義務還是你是站在人力物力不足無從查證還是你擔心說我查了如果沒查好反而會是幫他們背書但是你不能全部丟給就是說你們對我信任啊不能這樣子啦我是覺得這個\n\n09:02.060 --> 09:05.709\n是像我們這樣的處理,我是覺得可能在整個規劃裡面會變成一個\n\n09:09.912 --> 09:31.080\n可以說是可以執行而且也是可以相當適合的一個方式但是總是發生事情的時候你們就會新聞相關單位去查了新聞外交部外管當然有人質疑的時候我們都會去查我現在就要請教您\n\n09:33.936 --> 09:58.967\n以後是怎麼樣好不要說今天湯惠正林思敏江永昌今天問一問新聞寫出來了我說你們以後啟動對我們的信任調查是靠什麼要件你總要有一個機制吧你也不是說今天院長副院長秘書長高興了這個人新聞很大查一下或者這個人新聞很大沒關係這只是道聽途說那個人其實我們有所懷疑\n\n09:59.747 --> 10:24.382\n不會吧你不會是靠這個吧那你至少告訴我如果你都只靠信任只靠切結我沒有擴及到全部的公務員我沒有擴及到全部的民選公職我現在就講113席的立法委員包括政府院長你總要有一個你的SOP是什麼吧就是說當什麼事情到什麼時候我們那張切結書形同廢紙那我們又沒有授權給你們的時候你們是依照什麼東西去查我們\n\n10:25.402 --> 10:53.862\n還是說不是靠你們查是靠內政部依照國籍法當中我們不可以任公職內政部啟動調查我不曉得因為在立法院根據公職人員選報法當中沒有立法院的規則沒有回頭來看就是一個國籍法連公務人員任用法28條第一項第二款也都與我們是有距離的那你沒辦法你沒標準\n\n10:54.810 --> 11:03.470\n你沒有做作業規範那我都不知道啦我今天就在這邊我說我懷疑湯惠珍跟林思敏啊我今天就在這裡講啊好了講完了咧\n\n11:05.578 --> 11:32.470\n委員你是這樣子啦不不這要對全體國人來負責不要每一次我知道那如果說你要立法院去查查證不是不是就是說至少我們至少也要有一個法令依據讓我們有最簡單我們不是寫切結書給你們我們寫授權書給你們就好像總統副總統他們寫的就是授權書那你知道我們公務人員體系公務人員任用法第28條\n\n11:34.011 --> 11:53.905\n如果碰到第一項第二款的時候有沒有不得外國籍的他們是寫拒絕書好我知道那個範圍都比較大因為非常多人不可能足以去查但是起碼國會自律以後立委關於外國國籍不是寫切結書給你們那個信任是假的嗎因為就是有人犯錯犯過\n\n11:55.629 --> 12:11.017\n但是原則上然後我們寫授權書給你們委員我知道啦你這樣子的考量我們但是授權給你們不是你們去查你們一旦拿到這個授權之後你們就可以會相關的部會機關原則上我還是\n\n12:12.317 --> 12:36.304\n覺得我們對立法委員的信任這個信任我覺得還是非常重要因為你當一個立委你被人民所附託你當然要誠實以告連你這個誠實都沒有我覺得當然你就變成欺騙我們是你欺騙我們所以我是覺得如果用這個竊決書的方式我是覺得事實上\n\n12:37.079 --> 13:03.277\n對於立法委員的尊重還有對於整個執行上面我覺得目前來講應該還是一個最好的方式那民主黨我的重點是這個單一立法委員不值得信任那不值得信任是立法委員的問題啊我把這句話講完但整體的過會值得人民信賴所以不要發生事情的時候立法院來發一個新聞稿說那個立法委員他切結寫假的謝謝大家\n\n13:04.406 --> 13:28.505\n不是吧我們信賴的是國會啊我跟你講立法委員各區域包含不分區百工百業行行色色各樣的民眾大家不同的角度選擇出來的民意代表對不對我講我們現在是排黑排得很嚴重但是過去也有跟深人當選立法委員嘛有的東西不是靠信任啦\n\n13:29.426 --> 13:57.451\n我們要信任的是國會啊我們要信賴國會啊不是不是說靠你們對靠立法院秘書長對立法委員的切結書你不是信任我啊國會所以你要維持我們是國家的所以您是不是應該要維持我們的國會被民眾信任當然是嘛我是基於這一點啊是啊那我們現在目前所做的方式就是這樣子啊\n\n13:57.731 --> 14:18.222\n不不不,您剛剛的講法都是說你要到時候這個立法委員他自己去以招公信說你看你這切結亂寫我是覺得我們一般來講如果我們進到比如說到美國海關等等或者是有一些我們也是他叫你說你有沒有帶毒品你自己切結啊\n\n14:19.122 --> 14:39.473\n你沒有我信任你沒有啊但是如果你有我抓到當然是重懲啊你欺騙我們啊你怎麼可以這樣做那是你個人的問題啊對於我們立法委員我們認為一個立法委員既然他已經是個立法委員而且他也可能是人民所托或者是一個政黨所托的我們原則上\n\n14:40.478 --> 14:57.207\n就以信任為主我們告訴他很清楚你是在講刑事上偵查上的不自證己罪還是你在講說有一個人帶的毒品要過海關然後自己還寫說我有帶毒品不會發生這種事吧我再講一次\n\n14:57.947 --> 15:24.280\n在座哪一個有理性的人告訴我誰攜帶毒品過海關還會自己寫說我有帶毒品我覺得你律師長我尊重你但是你這個扯遠了把它拉回來我在講的是國會你不要把它丟給一個單一立法委員的切結那我知道你沒有我只能說也許您線下沒有答案但國人的期待不是如此我今天的詢答\n\n15:25.216 --> 15:43.679\n我心內心答我真的是心中把立法院放在非常高的位置我沒有擴及到其他民選公職我沒有擴及到今天考試院也有來我沒有擴及到全部的公務人員但就113席韓政府院長這個不具外國籍這個已經到\n\n15:44.893 --> 16:02.342\n國安的層次甚至是這個國家的義務跟責任以及國會的信賴國會的信任這不該只是靠那一張切結那再研究看看再想想看那個委員原則上我也感謝你的發言事實上你所提的任何的一些\n\n16:02.862 --> 16:27.591\n意見包括立法院的一些條例其實我都長久以來我都非常佩服因為我覺得你常常都看到一些我們沒有看到但是針對這一個部分你所提的那個意見原則上我還是會把它接納而且我們也會回去好好再想除了切結之外是不是還有更好的方式來做這樣子的問題\n\n16:28.391 --> 16:49.052\n但是我們對立法院的尊重我們還是會維持只是你所提的這些說我們是不是可以變成切結改成所謂授權這樣子的方式會更好我感謝還有後面這個公務人員任用法他們如果有外國籍任用後發\n\n16:50.713 --> 17:11.908\n發現了原來他任用的時候一具外國籍這種東西他被這個什麼他被那個撤銷任用的時候他是要追還幾戶喔這個在我們立法院立法委員就算被發現說結果原來你就職了你也沒有什麼一年內放棄什麼的這個你去查一下因為我最後看到的是我們雖然要追但是\n\n17:12.984 --> 17:32.203\n於法無據是沒什麼可以追所以這一點也很重要謝謝委員你提出這一點那這樣子的話事實上你講的這些事情的話我們會好好的研究一下也許你這樣的意見還有將來我們如果說他真的是\n\n17:33.103 --> 17:50.855\n等於是欺瞞我們,造成他本身本來就有外國籍那這樣子的話,我們將來要追討他的一些薪資奉獻等等也有一個依據啦所以這個我覺得一併我們來把它考量\n\n17:51.175 --> 18:15.516\n因為這次的事件傷害很深啊人家說你有沒有外國籍他說原來已經在立法院做部分區海量子彈飛了兩個禮拜在那邊講來講去這沒有道理這對國會的形象有沒有這個其實是傷害很大事實上好啦我覺得我們還是接納那個委員的意見我們來好好考慮一下我想很多我們的國民說原來是切結喔\n\n18:16.873 --> 18:42.926\n不好意思講說真好笑但是我覺得這樣我們應該嚴肅看待沒有啦我是很尊重你但我覺得這個題目應該要更努力一些我非常感謝委員您所提出的這個善意的一個建議而且你這個建議的確也值得我們深思來考慮那我們會把它納入來考慮也許如果\n\n18:43.826 --> 18:45.591\n找到一個更好的方法,我們會來做處理,謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.933,"end":23.303,"text":"他現在是國籍法第20條相關規定好那就很奇怪齁其實你要知道那為什麼這次總統副總統有沒有外國籍社會嘩然他最後有去查證你知道為什麼難道也是看國籍法嗎事實上他前面這裡有一個總統副總統他的選拔法當中直接就在裡面寫不可以具有外國籍"},{"start":24.5,"end":42.834,"text":"那麼在他們要登記的時候就直接授權主管機關或中選會相關機關可以去做查證也就是說他兩個加起來他當然有國際法可是他前面一開始在總統副總統選爆法當中就告訴你明白告訴你不行那立法委員是公職嗎"},{"start":44.386,"end":65.322,"text":"立法委員是公職對 也是廣義的公務員等一下我會講到公務員認證用法28條我現在先講了但是我們民選公職有沒有在選拔法當中卻沒有直接把不得具有外國籍直接寫在裡面然後後來又去看國籍法當中就是不得 擔任立法委員不得具有那個外國身份"},{"start":67.27,"end":87.326,"text":"但是又沒有授權你啦沒有像總統副總統選發法當中直接規定的所以就沒有授權你去查所以我們搞什麼你知道嗎我們搞竊結書啊這很不好啊就是說我不曉得就是說為什麼我們這麼長久以來其實以前也有立法委員發聲過"},{"start":89.199,"end":111.016,"text":"結果我告訴你後來一追下去之後他所有的刑事判決違照文書不起訴我就不要講哪個立法委員前任立法委員利用職務榨取財務罪無罪然後行政上面請求返還他任內的薪資助理費補助費奉給給付等等法院都判不必返還"},{"start":112.515,"end":139.821,"text":"也就是說我們對這個事情這麼重視但是其實我們進來的時候是寫切結書那我們發生事情的時候什麼都無罪什麼都沒事那給付也不用返還這兩個東西要補正一個是我認為啦那立法院去想修法說也許民選公職這麼多對不對那起碼我們立法委員是高度重視啦在這當中我們不要再像其他的民選公職一樣就是寫個切結書不是不是我們自己深等嘛"},{"start":140.819,"end":157.885,"text":"其實可以啊 授權你去查證啊 要不然現在如果萬一發生的時候 你要知道喔如果他有 如果我們選上之後才發現在選之前已經具有外國籍身份的時候是直接由立法院 立法委員是由立法院直接免除他職務喔"},{"start":159.085,"end":184.996,"text":"那其他的公務員 假如用公務員任務法是在他的機關 被他的機關免職我們是直接被立法院 立法院靠什麼 沒有 靠你切結書到時候社會輿論有人檢舉 怎麼樣的時候我們再匆匆忙忙請相關單位也許拜託內政部外交部有沒有 再去跟國外查所以我們不敢立法進階去做授權查證是怕什麼 怕一旦我們"},{"start":185.996,"end":210.647,"text":"我們有授權立法院查證的時候反而變成立法院來為立法委員是否具有外國籍來背書是怕這個嗎還是怕人力物力耗費頗大我們做不完嗎其實我剛剛講光是付出去的幾付沒有追回來那個錢就很多啊拿來辦這些行動用我說也許不要擴大到所有的民選公職國會這一層一定要把關注啊請回答我那個江委員原則上是這樣子對立法委員原則上他是應該"},{"start":214.212,"end":234.787,"text":"他能不能當選等等他有一定的程序所以我們對立法委員的原則上我們是信任原則我不認為如此因為我們的竊結書就是依照國際法20條相關規定給他問他說本人就職"},{"start":237.57,"end":265.321,"text":"幾屆立委時未取得國籍他如果是勾說是的我就是這樣子這是我的承諾我們你們給人家勾兩條一個是勾說你是不是有外國籍另外你們給人家勾的選項就是說如果你有的話請你去放棄然後你一年之內有沒有這也是依照法規定的民主黨你聽我講成恆輕重你就會發現了當我們民選公子你說用信任"},{"start":266.141,"end":282.337,"text":"那我們公務人員任用法對不對我們用切解然後公務人員任用法28條當中第一項第二款具有外國籍也不行啊如果任用後發現他在任用時的時候具有外國籍有沒有那是撤銷任用耶那還要追還有沒有"},{"start":283.078,"end":303.391,"text":"那坦白講 他們也不是授權查證欸 是靠拒絕書所以我說 連我們立委都靠竊竊公務機關對公務員製補者就有外國籍不得任用 撤銷任用他也在那邊搞說要拒絕至少人家還要追還喔 萬一你被檢舉查出來會追還我們也是追還喔 你用哪一條追還沒有沒有沒有 我剛講某位前立委"},{"start":310.227,"end":327.733,"text":"法院沒有判他還但是我們有去追這是兩回事法律有站在你這邊你才追得到法律不站在你這邊我剛講了他不管是偽造文書跟榨取財物都是無罪因為他至少是欺騙我們嘛至少是欺騙我們啊我認為立法委員來國會服公職"},{"start":335.475,"end":358.838,"text":"不是靠立法院秘書長 立法院院長 副院長對立法委員的信任 不是 不是那是糟蹋國會尊嚴啦我覺得其實應該大方授權不要去擔心說 你怕說到時候去外國政府不配合或什麼的反而你授權我查證 結果我查不出來反而變成你的背書我認為不要去擔心這個該做的事情就要做"},{"start":359.38,"end":372.933,"text":"不是,我想委員我們也很想做,但是這個一定是有它的執行上的困難因為如果我們變成一個查證機構的話,那我們要有很多權力"},{"start":374.52,"end":392.074,"text":"而且你知道外國的政府有很多根本跟我們沒有任何邦交關係啊你是透過外交部做查證的工作事實上他也是有很多他的困難所以如果立法院他必須對"},{"start":393.335,"end":408.652,"text":"所有的國家做查證的話那我們是不是立法院就必須要對至少有一百多個國家你都要去查證說他沒有國籍那這樣子事實上我們做不來每一次立法委員如果有這樣的事情的時候"},{"start":409.741,"end":434.944,"text":"都是頭條都是大事情該不會就是因為歷屆的立法院都只有用信任這樣來看待我今天講了其實我之前去詢問公務員任用法主管機關不管我問人總不管我問這個選區部坦白講回頭我當然考量到說每個公務人員都要去查查不完但是連立法委員就這麼樣"},{"start":437.506,"end":449.341,"text":"113個席次我們立法院自己公然跟人家講我們做不到然後每次都是有問題的時候對不對大家來推諉 我認為這樣不對我也沒有擴及到全部的民選公職啊"},{"start":451.227,"end":468.853,"text":"我們當然只對我們的立法委員你要知道這裡面不是什麼信不信任也不是說這是資格不資格這裡面還包含國安問題你知道嗎他已經升級到其實應該去檢視對不對每一個立法委員身為中華民國立法委員對國家應有的責任對國家應有的義務對自己應該有的要求啊"},{"start":472.754,"end":501.159,"text":"對啊,所以他就是他並是以造實以告啊他如果沒有,他就要講沒有啊他如果欺騙,他就是欺騙行為,他要負責啊他負什麼責?他當然要負責啊,他就是欺騙行為,我沒有告他啊最後你免除他職務的時候,他什麼罪都沒有啊怎麼會沒有罪?誤罪,你去看那個判決,判決的誤罪那個是,那個當然他的判決是那樣子當然我們是不是對他的判決就是"},{"start":502.768,"end":518.293,"text":"永遠就是這樣子覺得我們還保持質疑我總結你的話你就是因為說世界上國家這麼多所以我們實在是沒有能力去查證不是不是你要告訴我一個你是站在"},{"start":519.293,"end":539.694,"text":"國家安全國家責任立法委員義務還是你是站在人力物力不足無從查證還是你擔心說我查了如果沒查好反而會是幫他們背書但是你不能全部丟給就是說你們對我信任啊不能這樣子啦我是覺得這個"},{"start":542.06,"end":545.709,"text":"是像我們這樣的處理,我是覺得可能在整個規劃裡面會變成一個"},{"start":549.912,"end":571.08,"text":"可以說是可以執行而且也是可以相當適合的一個方式但是總是發生事情的時候你們就會新聞相關單位去查了新聞外交部外管當然有人質疑的時候我們都會去查我現在就要請教您"},{"start":573.936,"end":598.967,"text":"以後是怎麼樣好不要說今天湯惠正林思敏江永昌今天問一問新聞寫出來了我說你們以後啟動對我們的信任調查是靠什麼要件你總要有一個機制吧你也不是說今天院長副院長秘書長高興了這個人新聞很大查一下或者這個人新聞很大沒關係這只是道聽途說那個人其實我們有所懷疑"},{"start":599.747,"end":624.382,"text":"不會吧 你不會是靠這個吧 那你至少告訴我如果你都只靠信任 只靠切結我沒有擴及到全部的公務員 我沒有擴及到全部的民選公職我現在就講113席的立法委員 包括政府院長你總要有一個你的SOP是什麼吧就是說當什麼事情到什麼時候 我們那張切結書形同廢紙那我們又沒有授權給你們的時候 你們是依照什麼東西去查我們"},{"start":625.402,"end":653.862,"text":"還是說不是靠你們查是靠內政部依照國籍法當中我們不可以任公職內政部啟動調查我不曉得因為在立法院根據公職人員選報法當中沒有立法院的規則沒有回頭來看就是一個國籍法連公務人員任用法28條第一項第二款也都與我們是有距離的那你沒辦法你沒標準"},{"start":654.81,"end":663.47,"text":"你沒有做作業規範那我都不知道啦我今天就在這邊我說我懷疑湯惠珍跟林思敏啊我今天就在這裡講啊好了講完了咧"},{"start":665.578,"end":692.47,"text":"委員你是這樣子啦 不不 這要對全體國人來負責 不要每一次我知道 那如果說你要立法院去查 查證不是不是 就是說至少我們至少也要有一個法令依據讓我們有最簡單 我們不是寫切結書給你們 我們寫授權書給你們就好像總統副總統他們寫的就是授權書那你知道我們公務人員體系 公務人員任用法第28條"},{"start":694.011,"end":713.905,"text":"如果碰到第一項第二款的時候有沒有不得外國籍的他們是寫拒絕書好 我知道那個範圍都比較大因為非常多人不可能足以去查但是起碼國會自律以後立委關於外國國籍不是寫切結書給你們那個信任是假的嗎因為就是有人犯錯犯過"},{"start":715.629,"end":731.017,"text":"但是原則上然後我們寫授權書給你們委員我知道啦你這樣子的考量我們但是授權給你們不是你們去查你們一旦拿到這個授權之後你們就可以會相關的部會機關原則上我還是"},{"start":732.317,"end":756.304,"text":"覺得我們對立法委員的信任這個信任我覺得還是非常重要因為你當一個立委你被人民所附託你當然要誠實以告連你這個誠實都沒有我覺得當然你就變成欺騙我們是你欺騙我們所以我是覺得如果用這個竊決書的方式我是覺得事實上"},{"start":757.079,"end":783.277,"text":"對於立法委員的尊重 還有對於整個執行上面我覺得目前來講 應該還是一個最好的方式那民主黨 我的重點是這個 單一立法委員不值得信任那不值得信任是立法委員的問題啊我把這句話講完 但整體的過會 值得人民信賴所以 不要發生事情的時候 立法院來發一個新聞稿說那個立法委員他切結寫假的 謝謝大家"},{"start":784.406,"end":808.505,"text":"不是吧 我們信賴的是國會啊我跟你講 立法委員各區域 包含不分區 百工百業 行行色色各樣的民眾 大家不同的角度 選擇出來的民意代表 對不對我講 我們現在是排黑排得很嚴重 但是過去也有跟深人當選立法委員嘛有的東西不是靠信任啦"},{"start":809.426,"end":837.451,"text":"我們要信任的是國會啊我們要信賴國會啊不是不是說靠你們對靠立法院秘書長對立法委員的切結書你不是信任我啊國會所以你要維持我們是國家的所以您是不是應該要維持我們的國會被民眾信任當然是嘛我是基於這一點啊是啊那我們現在目前所做的方式就是這樣子啊"},{"start":837.731,"end":858.222,"text":"不不不,您剛剛的講法都是說你要到時候這個立法委員他自己去以招公信說你看你這切結亂寫我是覺得我們一般來講如果我們進到比如說到美國海關等等或者是有一些我們也是他叫你說你有沒有帶毒品你自己切結啊"},{"start":859.122,"end":879.473,"text":"你沒有 我信任你沒有啊 但是如果你有 我抓到 當然是重懲啊你欺騙我們啊 你怎麼可以這樣做 那是你個人的問題啊對於我們立法委員 我們認為一個立法委員 既然他已經是個立法委員而且他也可能是人民所托 或者是一個政黨所托的 我們原則上"},{"start":880.478,"end":897.207,"text":"就以信任為主我們告訴他很清楚你是在講刑事上偵查上的不自證己罪還是你在講說有一個人帶的毒品要過海關然後自己還寫說我有帶毒品不會發生這種事吧我再講一次"},{"start":897.947,"end":924.28,"text":"在座哪一個有理性的人告訴我誰攜帶毒品過海關還會自己寫說我有帶毒品我覺得你律師長我尊重你但是你這個扯遠了把它拉回來我在講的是國會你不要把它丟給一個單一立法委員的切結那我知道你沒有我只能說也許您線下沒有答案但國人的期待不是如此我今天的詢答"},{"start":925.216,"end":943.679,"text":"我心內心答我真的是心中把立法院放在非常高的位置我沒有擴及到其他民選公職我沒有擴及到今天考試院也有來我沒有擴及到全部的公務人員但就113席韓政府院長這個不具外國籍這個已經到"},{"start":944.893,"end":962.342,"text":"國安的層次甚至是這個國家的義務跟責任以及國會的信賴國會的信任這不該只是靠那一張切結那再研究看看再想想看那個委員原則上我也感謝你的發言事實上你所提的任何的一些"},{"start":962.862,"end":987.591,"text":"意見包括立法院的一些條例其實我都長久以來我都非常佩服因為我覺得你常常都看到一些我們沒有看到但是針對這一個部分你所提的那個意見原則上我還是會把它接納而且我們也會回去好好再想除了切結之外是不是還有更好的方式來做這樣子的問題"},{"start":988.391,"end":1009.052,"text":"但是我們對立法院的尊重我們還是會維持只是你所提的這些說我們是不是可以變成切結改成所謂授權這樣子的方式會更好我感謝還有後面這個公務人員任用法他們如果有外國籍任用後發"},{"start":1010.713,"end":1031.908,"text":"發現了原來他任用的時候一具外國籍這種東西他被這個什麼他被那個撤銷任用的時候他是要追還幾戶喔這個在我們立法院立法委員就算被發現說結果原來你就職了你也沒有什麼一年內放棄什麼的這個你去查一下因為我最後看到的是我們雖然要追但是"},{"start":1032.984,"end":1052.203,"text":"於法無據是沒什麼可以追所以這一點也很重要謝謝委員你提出這一點那這樣子的話事實上你講的這些事情的話我們會好好的研究一下也許你這樣的意見還有將來我們如果說他真的是"},{"start":1053.103,"end":1070.855,"text":"等於是欺瞞我們,造成他本身本來就有外國籍那這樣子的話,我們將來要追討他的一些薪資奉獻等等也有一個依據啦所以這個我覺得一併我們來把它考量"},{"start":1071.175,"end":1095.516,"text":"因為這次的事件傷害很深啊人家說你有沒有外國籍他說原來已經在立法院做部分區海量子彈飛了兩個禮拜在那邊講來講去這沒有道理這對國會的形象有沒有這個其實是傷害很大事實上好啦我覺得我們還是接納那個委員的意見我們來好好考慮一下我想很多我們的國民說原來是切結喔"},{"start":1096.873,"end":1122.926,"text":"不好意思講說真好笑但是我覺得這樣我們應該嚴肅看待沒有啦我是很尊重你但我覺得這個題目應該要更努力一些我非常感謝委員您所提出的這個善意的一個建議而且你這個建議的確也值得我們深思來考慮那我們會把它納入來考慮也許如果"},{"start":1123.826,"end":1125.591,"text":"找到一個更好的方法,我們會來做處理,謝謝委員"}]}}}}