{"id":148922,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148922","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1488b65508d71c04505cde8a3461f91f4f73b9825177cacbc986728e607a0322604f80897a2691b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"10:33:24 - 10:42:48","影片長度":"00:09:24","會議時間":"2023-12-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」：(一)審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案。二、「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之二條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查時代力量黨團擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第二十條之一條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員張其祿等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之一及第二十條之一條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員陳明文等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員陳柏惟、許智傑等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第七條及第二十二條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員羅美玲等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員王美惠等22人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查中華民國射擊活動暨射擊器材權益促進會為建議修正槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文請願文書1案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-12"},"date":"2023-12-07","duration":564,"end_time":"2023-12-07T10:42:48+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-07T10:33:24+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":542,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（10時33分）主席好，有請次長以及署長。"],["主席：有請吳次長跟黃署長。"],["吳次長容輝：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：次長好、署長好。辦公室這邊有跟警政署聯繫，希望能夠提供一個近幾年持槍的案件數，但是我拿到的是槍擊案的案件數，我不曉得是不是對於持槍沒有去做統計？"],["黃署長明昭：跟委員報告，我們再提供，可能當時在我們的認知上有錯誤，我們再提供持有槍……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：其實我是希望瞭解持槍的數據，還有就是持槍案裡面獵槍的數據，因為我想這個部分對我們來講其實是問政，也是很需要的一個基礎資料，那就麻煩再提供。","另外我看到你們所提供的查緝槍枝的情形，非制式槍枝是占比最高，這當中我們的獵槍，它其實是含在非制式槍枝裡面，那為什麼我這樣子問？因為這一次的修法目的，就是看到現在社會改造槍枝的犯案比例越來越高，對嗎？也發現槍彈這些零組件沒有完全地納管。另外更重要的是大家都在談的就是現在原本我們這個是管制條例，管制槍枝的使用，但是現在增加了一個開槍的行為，就是公然的開槍，所以在這個部分，以前我們看到是在刑法裡面處理，這一次在我們的槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例裡面也把它納進來了。所以在這個部分，我們就有幾個疑慮，像剛才大家都在問的，就是原住民會經常做鳴槍，當然我知道你們的回答一定會說：這個沒有問題。可是要知道，我們很多人其實對於去申請這件事情是糊里糊塗的，我也看到很多祭儀活動的鳴槍儀式，有時候我們槍枝忘記登記，而要去申請的這個動作我們一般來講都不太嫻熟，經常忘記，不曉得新增了這個第九條之一第二項之後會不會被處罰？會不會用刑法來處罰？"],["吳次長容輝：感謝委員的指教，這一部分已經都排除了。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：忘記申請也會排除？"],["吳次長容輝：這一部分因為刑罰的部分已經排除，行政罰的部分還是有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那怎麼辦？"],["吳次長容輝：我想這部分我們會宣導，我們會再去輔導他來做這個……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：僅僅用宣導？"],["吳次長容輝：許可啦！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：僅僅用宣導？"],["吳次長容輝：因為現在有一些的確像委員講的一樣，有些他也不曉得要來申請許可，這一部分我們會再透過相關的管道再讓我們……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以只能用宣導嗎？次長，我跟您說，三年多前那一次的修法就是槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例，當時對於零組件的除罪化，大家意見很多，因為他們會覺得不是早在二十多年前我們的獵槍就已經除罪化，可是我們提出來的數據可以看到，每一年大概會有50件被判刑，獵人被關起來判刑，最主要的原因就是在法官那邊出了問題，法官那邊會卡關，因為每一位法官他的認定、他的解讀其實是不一樣的喔！所以我們舉個例子，這邊有一個2014年秀林鄉的慕谷慕魚遭到破壞，在這邊「砰、砰、砰」，還好當時的地檢署是不起訴處分，因為這個法官他是在花蓮秀林，其實我也要感謝地檢署還有我們的司法院，這些年我知道都有在做這種文化的講習，因為我以前也經常受邀去做演講。我的意思是說有的法官就不知道，他很容易就會入罪，所以次長、署長這個怎麼辦？"],["吳次長容輝：報告委員，我想這在大法官803號解釋，或者是在憲法第二十二條或增修條文第四條就講得很清楚了，這一部分是尊重我們原住民的這些文化或者是儀式，這些都已經都排除掉了，至於司法怎麼去判，還是要依循大法官的會議解釋跟憲法相關規定。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：來，署長請。"],["黃署長明昭：跟委員報告，有關原住民持有制式獵槍或者是原民的基本法，在警察常年教育訓練裡，我們每三個月都有一個講習，會納入在這個講習的課程裡面，讓員警多瞭解到原民應有的基本法，以及……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這是很好啦！但是我們還是希望在條例裡面，我這樣講好了，這一次新增的一些條文，其實很多的原住民團體都有意見，因為時間的關係，我其實已經用書面取得警政署的回復，我也會轉達，今天在質詢這邊我本來想要問得更清楚，但是我想說，我們反對的原因就是都還沒有同步修第二十條，並且第二十條也還沒有全部施行上路，大家也都還在使用原本的自製獵槍零組件，這個漏洞很大喔！署長你應該明白吧？"],["黃署長明昭：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，所以這個部分我希望針對新增的第九條之一或者是修正的第四條、新增的第五條之三、新增的第十三條之一、新增的第二十條之二，這是我們很多原民團體有意見的部分，可能會衝擊到我們，我希望這個……","我只要先講一個新增第五條之三，你們提到說要組成一個槍砲彈藥審認的爭議諮詢小組，但是我們問有沒有邀請原民團體及代表時，你們說針對涉及原住民自製獵槍等相關爭議案件，會邀請原民會及相關專家學者列席諮詢，是「列席」耶！這個都已經是相關爭議案件了，我們應該要出席吧？要有表決權吧？為什麼只是列席諮詢呢？所以這個回復我們有意見，請署長說明。"],["黃署長明昭：跟委員報告，我們在未來訂定作業辦法的時候會把它列得相當清楚，包括原民的代表，我們都把他列進來。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們可以出席嗎？"],["黃署長明昭：對，當然可以出席。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝，不要說只是列席諮詢，所以這個地方我是希望……我們已經等到了獵槍專法，很感謝警政署順應民意辦了9場全國分區座談，已經重新蒐整意見了，我只是希望這個由內政部會銜原民會、國防部發布的部分，我希望訂一個清楚的公告實施的期程，好不好？要不然新舊法又新增，這個空窗漏洞很大，搞不好很多的族人又會因為這個部分入獄，好不好？"],["吳次長容輝：謝謝委員，這一部分我們在後面的法制程序……現在條文大概都有共識，後面要走的是法制程序。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：確定都有共識了？"],["吳次長容輝：有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：不會又蹦出來？"],["吳次長容輝：不會啦！"],["黃署長明昭：跟委員補充報告，我們開了好幾次會，絕大部分都有共識，部分我們還在協調……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：少許沒有共識的，是不是可以早一點讓我們瞭解？"],["黃署長明昭：是，這個……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我想開誠布公是最好的溝通方法，好不好？謝謝次長、署長，以上這些我希望二個禮拜以內再提供我更清楚的答復。"],["吳次長容輝：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員。林文瑞委員交書面。接下來請莊瑞雄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-12","speakers":["羅美玲","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","陳琬惠","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳玉珍","李德維","張宏陸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","高金素梅","黃世杰","賴品妤","林文瑞"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-07"],"gazette_id":"1129702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129702_00002","1129702_00003","1129702_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」：(一)審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「中華民國專屬\n經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「中華民國\n專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案；二、「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例」：(一)\n審查行政院函請審議「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 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0.904}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 560.837, \"end\": 560.997, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 560.997, \"end\": 561.177, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 561.177, \"end\": 561.377, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 561.377, \"end\": 561.517, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 561.517, \"end\": 561.697, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 561.697, \"end\": 561.897, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"覆\", \"start\": 561.897, \"end\": 562.677, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 562.677, \"end\": 563.218, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 563.218, \"end\": 563.358, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 563.358, \"end\": 563.378, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,089 --> 00:00:02,772\n吳司長以及署長有請吳司長跟黃署長\n\n2\n00:00:11,260 --> 00:00:35,269\n市長好署長好辦公室這邊有跟警政署希望能夠提供一個近幾年持槍的案件數但是我拿到的是槍擊案的案件數我不曉得說是不是對於持槍沒有去做統計\n\n3\n00:00:38,289 --> 00:00:47,233\n跟委員報告我們在提供可能當時在我們的認知上有錯誤這個我們在提供那個持有槍其實我是希望了解還有獵槍的數據就是持槍案裡面獵槍的數據因為我想這個部分對我們來講其實是問證也是很需要的一個基礎資料那就麻煩再提供\n\n4\n00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:29,687\n那另外我就是看到你們所提供的查緝槍支的情形非制式槍支是佔比最高這當中我們的獵槍它其實是含在這個非制式槍支裡面那為什麼我這樣子問因為這一次的一個修法的目的\n\n5\n00:01:31,587 --> 00:01:58,541\n理由就是看到現在社會改造槍支的方案比例越來越高對嗎那也發現槍彈這些零組件沒有完全的納管那另外更重要的是大家都在談的就是現在原本我們這個是管制條例管制槍支的使用但是現在增加了一個就是開槍的行為\n\n6\n00:02:00,007 --> 00:02:25,384\n就是公然的開槍所以在這個部分現在以前我們看到是在刑法裡面處理那這一次呢在我們的這個槍炮彈藥管刀械管制條例裡面也把它納進來了所以在這個部分大家我們就有幾個疑慮像剛才大家都在問的就是原住民會經常做明槍啦\n\n7\n00:02:26,482 --> 00:02:44,980\n那當然我會知道你們的回答一定會說這個沒有問題可是要知道我們很多人其實是對於去申請這件事情是糊裡糊塗的我也看到很多祭儀活動的一個鳴槍儀式有時候我們會忘記\n\n8\n00:02:46,956 --> 00:03:00,500\n槍枝忘記登記要去申請這個動作我們一般來講都不太閒熟經常忘記不曉得說新增了這個第九條之一第二項之後會不會被處罰會不會用刑法來處罰感謝委員的指教這一部分已經都排除了啦已經排除在忘記申請也會排除\n\n9\n00:03:18,045 --> 00:03:30,453\n這一部分因為刑法的部分已經排除那行政法的部分還是有那怎麼辦我想這一部分我們會宣導啦我們會再去輔導他來做這個僅僅用宣導因為現在有一些的確像委員講的一樣\n\n10\n00:03:37,938 --> 00:04:06,345\n那有些他還不曉得要來申請許可這一部分我們會再透過相關的管道再讓我們所以只能用宣導嗎次長因為次長我跟您說三年多前那一次的修法就是這個槍砲彈藥盜竊管制條例當時對於零組件的處罪化大家意見很多因為他們會覺得說不是早在20多年前\n\n11\n00:04:07,406 --> 00:04:30,792\n我們的獵槍就已經出罪話可是我們提出來的數據可以看到每一年大概會有50件被判刑獵人被關起來判刑最主要的原因就是在法官那邊出了問題法官那邊會卡關因為每一位法官他的認定他的解讀其實是不一樣的所以我們舉個例子這邊有一個2014年\n\n12\n00:04:37,651 --> 00:05:04,886\n秀林鄉的木骨木魚遭到破壞這邊砰砰砰砰砰還好張實的地檢署是不起訴處分因為這個法官他是在花蓮秀林大概這些年我也要感謝地檢署還有我們的司法院其實這些年我知道都有在做這種文化的一個講習因為我以前也經常受邀去做\n\n13\n00:05:05,586 --> 00:05:33,628\n演講那我的意思是說有的法官就不知道啊不知道啊他很容易就會入罪呢所以次長署長這個怎麼辦八位我想這個在大王803號解釋啦或者是在這個憲法22條或政策條文第四條這個講的都已經很清楚了那這一部分是尊重我們原住民的這些文化或者是這些這個這個儀式這些這些都已經都都已經排除掉了\n\n14\n00:05:34,315 --> 00:06:01,456\n那至於說這個司法怎麼去判你還是要依循這個大法官會議解釋跟這個憲法的相關規定來署長請跟委員報告那有關於原住民的持有制式類槍或者是原民的一個基本法我們都會把我們的警察的那個長年教育訓練我們每三個月都一個講習我會納入在這個講習的課程裡面讓我們原警多了解到原民的\n\n15\n00:06:02,016 --> 00:06:29,415\n他的應有的一個基本法這是很好啦但是我們還是希望在條例裡面我這樣講好了這一次做的新增的一些條文其實很多的原住民團體都有意見那因為時間的關係我其實已經用書面取得警政署的回覆我也會轉達那今天在質詢這邊我本來想要問得更清楚但是我想說的是說我們反對的原因就是\n\n16\n00:06:30,035 --> 00:06:49,056\n都還沒有同步修20條並且20條也還沒有全部施行上路大家也都還在使用原本的自製列槍零組件這個漏洞很大喔署長你應該明白吧對那所以這個部分喔我是希望說\n\n17\n00:06:51,097 --> 00:07:16,309\n針對新增的第9條之1或者是修正的第4條新增的第5條之3新增的第13條之1新增的第20條之2這是我們很多原民團體有意見的部分可能會衝擊到我們的部分我希望這個部分我只要先講一個新增第5條之3你們提到說\n\n18\n00:07:17,816 --> 00:07:45,584\n要組成一個槍砲彈藥審認的爭議諮詢小組但是我們說有沒有邀集原民團體及代表啊你們說針對涉及原住民自製獵槍等相關爭議案件會邀請原民會及相關專家學者列席諮詢啊欸列席捏我是說這個都已經是相關爭議案件了捏我們應該要出席吧要有表決權吧為什麼只是列席諮詢呢\n\n19\n00:07:47,489 --> 00:08:10,343\n所以這個回覆我們有意見來署長請我跟委員報告我們在未來訂定那個數位辦法的時候會把它列得相當清楚包括顏名的代表我們都把它列進來我們可以出席嗎對當然可以出席那謝謝不要說列席諮詢好那所以這個地方我是希望說我們已經等的列強專法\n\n20\n00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:26,157\n很感謝警政署順應民意辦了九場全國分區座談已經重新收整意見了齁那我只是希望說這個由內政部會協原民會國防部發布的部分\n\n21\n00:08:27,830 --> 00:08:53,586\n我希望定一個清楚的公告實施的期程好不好要不然這個新舊法又新增這個空窗漏洞很大搞不好在這個部分很多的族人又會陰暗入獄好不好好謝謝永元這一部分我們在後面的這個法治程序現在就會現在台灣大概都有共識對那後面要走的是法治程序確定都有共識了有有有不會又蹦出來\n\n22\n00:08:55,667 --> 00:09:23,378\n委員補充報告大概有大概我們開了好幾次會大概幾個大部分都有共識是那部分我們還在寫少許沒有共識的是不是可以早一點讓我們了解是我想這個部分開成不公是最好的溝通的方法好不好好謝謝次長謝謝署長那這些以上我希望兩個禮拜以內再提供我更清楚的答覆好謝謝主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t2772\t吳司長以及署長有請吳司長跟黃署長\n11260\t35269\t市長好 署長好辦公室這邊有跟警政署希望能夠提供一個近幾年持槍的案件數但是我拿到的是槍擊案的案件數我不曉得說是不是對於持槍沒有去做統計\n38289\t47233\t跟委員報告我們在提供可能當時在我們的認知上有錯誤這個我們在提供那個持有槍其實我是希望了解還有獵槍的數據就是持槍案裡面獵槍的數據因為我想這個部分對我們來講其實是問證也是很需要的一個基礎資料那就麻煩再提供\n65160\t89687\t那另外我就是看到你們所提供的查緝槍支的情形非制式槍支是佔比最高這當中我們的獵槍它其實是含在這個非制式槍支裡面那為什麼我這樣子問因為這一次的一個修法的目的\n91587\t118541\t理由就是看到現在社會改造槍支的方案比例越來越高 對嗎那也發現槍彈這些零組件沒有完全的納管那另外更重要的是大家都在談的就是現在原本我們這個是管制條例管制槍支的使用但是現在增加了一個就是開槍的行為\n120007\t145384\t就是公然的開槍所以在這個部分現在以前我們看到是在刑法裡面處理那這一次呢在我們的這個槍炮彈藥管刀械管制條例裡面也把它納進來了所以在這個部分大家我們就有幾個疑慮像剛才大家都在問的就是原住民會經常做明槍啦\n146482\t164980\t那當然我會知道你們的回答一定會說這個沒有問題可是要知道我們很多人其實是對於去申請這件事情是糊裡糊塗的我也看到很多祭儀活動的一個鳴槍儀式有時候我們會忘記\n166956\t180500\t槍枝忘記登記要去申請這個動作我們一般來講都不太閒熟經常忘記不曉得說新增了這個第九條之一第二項之後會不會被處罰會不會用刑法來處罰感謝委員的指教這一部分已經都排除了啦已經排除在忘記申請也會排除\n198045\t210453\t這一部分因為刑法的部分已經排除那行政法的部分還是有那怎麼辦我想這一部分我們會宣導啦我們會再去輔導他來做這個僅僅用宣導因為現在有一些的確像委員講的一樣\n217938\t246345\t那有些他還不曉得要來申請許可這一部分我們會再透過相關的管道再讓我們所以只能用宣導嗎 次長因為 次長我跟您說三年多前那一次的修法就是這個槍砲彈藥盜竊管制條例當時對於零組件的處罪化大家意見很多因為他們會覺得說不是早在20多年前\n247406\t270792\t我們的獵槍就已經出罪話可是我們提出來的數據可以看到每一年大概會有50件被判刑獵人被關起來判刑最主要的原因就是在法官那邊出了問題法官那邊會卡關因為每一位法官他的認定他的解讀其實是不一樣的所以我們舉個例子這邊有一個2014年\n277651\t304886\t秀林鄉的木骨木魚遭到破壞這邊砰砰砰砰砰還好張實的地檢署是不起訴處分因為這個法官他是在花蓮秀林大概這些年我也要感謝地檢署還有我們的司法院其實這些年我知道都有在做這種文化的一個講習因為我以前也經常受邀去做\n305586\t333628\t演講那我的意思是說有的法官就不知道啊不知道啊他很容易就會入罪呢所以次長署長這個怎麼辦八位我想這個在大王803號解釋啦或者是在這個憲法22條或政策條文第四條這個講的都已經很清楚了那這一部分是尊重我們原住民的這些文化或者是這些這個這個儀式這些這些都已經都都已經排除掉了\n334315\t361456\t那至於說這個司法怎麼去判你還是要依循這個大法官會議解釋跟這個憲法的相關規定來 署長請跟委員報告那有關於原住民的持有制式類槍或者是原民的一個基本法我們都會把我們的警察的那個長年教育訓練我們每三個月都一個講習我會納入在這個講習的課程裡面讓我們原警多了解到原民的\n362016\t389415\t他的應有的一個基本法這是很好啦但是我們還是希望在條例裡面我這樣講好了這一次做的新增的一些條文其實很多的原住民團體都有意見那因為時間的關係我其實已經用書面取得警政署的回覆我也會轉達那今天在質詢這邊我本來想要問得更清楚但是我想說的是說我們反對的原因就是\n390035\t409056\t都還沒有同步修20條並且20條也還沒有全部施行上路大家也都還在使用原本的自製列槍零組件這個漏洞很大喔署長你應該明白吧對那所以這個部分喔我是希望說\n411097\t436309\t針對新增的第9條之1或者是修正的第4條新增的第5條之3新增的第13條之1新增的第20條之2這是我們很多原民團體有意見的部分可能會衝擊到我們的部分我希望這個部分我只要先講一個新增第5條之3你們提到說\n437816\t465584\t要組成一個槍砲彈藥審認的爭議諮詢小組但是我們說有沒有邀集原民團體及代表啊你們說針對涉及原住民自製獵槍等相關爭議案件會邀請原民會及相關專家學者列席諮詢啊欸列席捏我是說這個都已經是相關爭議案件了捏我們應該要出席吧要有表決權吧為什麼只是列席諮詢呢\n467489\t490343\t所以這個回覆我們有意見來 署長 請我跟委員報告我們在未來訂定那個數位辦法的時候會把它列得相當清楚包括顏名的代表我們都把它列進來我們可以出席嗎對 當然可以出席那謝謝 不要說列席諮詢好 那所以這個地方我是希望說我們已經等的列強專法\n491960\t506157\t很感謝警政署順應民意辦了九場全國分區座談已經重新收整意見了齁那我只是希望說這個由內政部會協原民會國防部發布的部分\n507830\t533586\t我希望定一個清楚的公告實施的期程好不好要不然這個新舊法又新增這個空窗漏洞很大搞不好在這個部分很多的族人又會陰暗入獄好不好好 謝謝永元這一部分我們在後面的這個法治程序現在就會現在台灣大概都有共識對那後面要走的是法治程序確定都有共識了有有有不會又蹦出來\n535667\t563378\t委員補充報告大概有大概我們開了好幾次會大概幾個大部分都有共識是那部分我們還在寫少許沒有共識的是不是可以早一點讓我們了解是我想這個部分開成不公是最好的溝通的方法好不好好謝謝次長謝謝署長那這些以上我希望兩個禮拜以內再提供我更清楚的答覆好謝謝主席\n","txt":"吳司長以及署長有請吳司長跟黃署長\n市長好 署長好辦公室這邊有跟警政署希望能夠提供一個近幾年持槍的案件數但是我拿到的是槍擊案的案件數我不曉得說是不是對於持槍沒有去做統計\n跟委員報告我們在提供可能當時在我們的認知上有錯誤這個我們在提供那個持有槍其實我是希望了解還有獵槍的數據就是持槍案裡面獵槍的數據因為我想這個部分對我們來講其實是問證也是很需要的一個基礎資料那就麻煩再提供\n那另外我就是看到你們所提供的查緝槍支的情形非制式槍支是佔比最高這當中我們的獵槍它其實是含在這個非制式槍支裡面那為什麼我這樣子問因為這一次的一個修法的目的\n理由就是看到現在社會改造槍支的方案比例越來越高 對嗎那也發現槍彈這些零組件沒有完全的納管那另外更重要的是大家都在談的就是現在原本我們這個是管制條例管制槍支的使用但是現在增加了一個就是開槍的行為\n就是公然的開槍所以在這個部分現在以前我們看到是在刑法裡面處理那這一次呢在我們的這個槍炮彈藥管刀械管制條例裡面也把它納進來了所以在這個部分大家我們就有幾個疑慮像剛才大家都在問的就是原住民會經常做明槍啦\n那當然我會知道你們的回答一定會說這個沒有問題可是要知道我們很多人其實是對於去申請這件事情是糊裡糊塗的我也看到很多祭儀活動的一個鳴槍儀式有時候我們會忘記\n槍枝忘記登記要去申請這個動作我們一般來講都不太閒熟經常忘記不曉得說新增了這個第九條之一第二項之後會不會被處罰會不會用刑法來處罰感謝委員的指教這一部分已經都排除了啦已經排除在忘記申請也會排除\n這一部分因為刑法的部分已經排除那行政法的部分還是有那怎麼辦我想這一部分我們會宣導啦我們會再去輔導他來做這個僅僅用宣導因為現在有一些的確像委員講的一樣\n那有些他還不曉得要來申請許可這一部分我們會再透過相關的管道再讓我們所以只能用宣導嗎 次長因為 次長我跟您說三年多前那一次的修法就是這個槍砲彈藥盜竊管制條例當時對於零組件的處罪化大家意見很多因為他們會覺得說不是早在20多年前\n我們的獵槍就已經出罪話可是我們提出來的數據可以看到每一年大概會有50件被判刑獵人被關起來判刑最主要的原因就是在法官那邊出了問題法官那邊會卡關因為每一位法官他的認定他的解讀其實是不一樣的所以我們舉個例子這邊有一個2014年\n秀林鄉的木骨木魚遭到破壞這邊砰砰砰砰砰還好張實的地檢署是不起訴處分因為這個法官他是在花蓮秀林大概這些年我也要感謝地檢署還有我們的司法院其實這些年我知道都有在做這種文化的一個講習因為我以前也經常受邀去做\n演講那我的意思是說有的法官就不知道啊不知道啊他很容易就會入罪呢所以次長署長這個怎麼辦八位我想這個在大王803號解釋啦或者是在這個憲法22條或政策條文第四條這個講的都已經很清楚了那這一部分是尊重我們原住民的這些文化或者是這些這個這個儀式這些這些都已經都都已經排除掉了\n那至於說這個司法怎麼去判你還是要依循這個大法官會議解釋跟這個憲法的相關規定來 署長請跟委員報告那有關於原住民的持有制式類槍或者是原民的一個基本法我們都會把我們的警察的那個長年教育訓練我們每三個月都一個講習我會納入在這個講習的課程裡面讓我們原警多了解到原民的\n他的應有的一個基本法這是很好啦但是我們還是希望在條例裡面我這樣講好了這一次做的新增的一些條文其實很多的原住民團體都有意見那因為時間的關係我其實已經用書面取得警政署的回覆我也會轉達那今天在質詢這邊我本來想要問得更清楚但是我想說的是說我們反對的原因就是\n都還沒有同步修20條並且20條也還沒有全部施行上路大家也都還在使用原本的自製列槍零組件這個漏洞很大喔署長你應該明白吧對那所以這個部分喔我是希望說\n針對新增的第9條之1或者是修正的第4條新增的第5條之3新增的第13條之1新增的第20條之2這是我們很多原民團體有意見的部分可能會衝擊到我們的部分我希望這個部分我只要先講一個新增第5條之3你們提到說\n要組成一個槍砲彈藥審認的爭議諮詢小組但是我們說有沒有邀集原民團體及代表啊你們說針對涉及原住民自製獵槍等相關爭議案件會邀請原民會及相關專家學者列席諮詢啊欸列席捏我是說這個都已經是相關爭議案件了捏我們應該要出席吧要有表決權吧為什麼只是列席諮詢呢\n所以這個回覆我們有意見來 署長 請我跟委員報告我們在未來訂定那個數位辦法的時候會把它列得相當清楚包括顏名的代表我們都把它列進來我們可以出席嗎對 當然可以出席那謝謝 不要說列席諮詢好 那所以這個地方我是希望說我們已經等的列強專法\n很感謝警政署順應民意辦了九場全國分區座談已經重新收整意見了齁那我只是希望說這個由內政部會協原民會國防部發布的部分\n我希望定一個清楚的公告實施的期程好不好要不然這個新舊法又新增這個空窗漏洞很大搞不好在這個部分很多的族人又會陰暗入獄好不好好 謝謝永元這一部分我們在後面的這個法治程序現在就會現在台灣大概都有共識對那後面要走的是法治程序確定都有共識了有有有不會又蹦出來\n委員補充報告大概有大概我們開了好幾次會大概幾個大部分都有共識是那部分我們還在寫少許沒有共識的是不是可以早一點讓我們了解是我想這個部分開成不公是最好的溝通的方法好不好好謝謝次長謝謝署長那這些以上我希望兩個禮拜以內再提供我更清楚的答覆好謝謝主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:02.772\n吳司長以及署長有請吳司長跟黃署長\n\n00:11.260 --> 00:35.269\n市長好署長好辦公室這邊有跟警政署希望能夠提供一個近幾年持槍的案件數但是我拿到的是槍擊案的案件數我不曉得說是不是對於持槍沒有去做統計\n\n00:38.289 --> 00:47.233\n跟委員報告我們在提供可能當時在我們的認知上有錯誤這個我們在提供那個持有槍其實我是希望了解還有獵槍的數據就是持槍案裡面獵槍的數據因為我想這個部分對我們來講其實是問證也是很需要的一個基礎資料那就麻煩再提供\n\n01:05.160 --> 01:29.687\n那另外我就是看到你們所提供的查緝槍支的情形非制式槍支是佔比最高這當中我們的獵槍它其實是含在這個非制式槍支裡面那為什麼我這樣子問因為這一次的一個修法的目的\n\n01:31.587 --> 01:58.541\n理由就是看到現在社會改造槍支的方案比例越來越高對嗎那也發現槍彈這些零組件沒有完全的納管那另外更重要的是大家都在談的就是現在原本我們這個是管制條例管制槍支的使用但是現在增加了一個就是開槍的行為\n\n02:00.007 --> 02:25.384\n就是公然的開槍所以在這個部分現在以前我們看到是在刑法裡面處理那這一次呢在我們的這個槍炮彈藥管刀械管制條例裡面也把它納進來了所以在這個部分大家我們就有幾個疑慮像剛才大家都在問的就是原住民會經常做明槍啦\n\n02:26.482 --> 02:44.980\n那當然我會知道你們的回答一定會說這個沒有問題可是要知道我們很多人其實是對於去申請這件事情是糊裡糊塗的我也看到很多祭儀活動的一個鳴槍儀式有時候我們會忘記\n\n02:46.956 --> 03:00.500\n槍枝忘記登記要去申請這個動作我們一般來講都不太閒熟經常忘記不曉得說新增了這個第九條之一第二項之後會不會被處罰會不會用刑法來處罰感謝委員的指教這一部分已經都排除了啦已經排除在忘記申請也會排除\n\n03:18.045 --> 03:30.453\n這一部分因為刑法的部分已經排除那行政法的部分還是有那怎麼辦我想這一部分我們會宣導啦我們會再去輔導他來做這個僅僅用宣導因為現在有一些的確像委員講的一樣\n\n03:37.938 --> 04:06.345\n那有些他還不曉得要來申請許可這一部分我們會再透過相關的管道再讓我們所以只能用宣導嗎次長因為次長我跟您說三年多前那一次的修法就是這個槍砲彈藥盜竊管制條例當時對於零組件的處罪化大家意見很多因為他們會覺得說不是早在20多年前\n\n04:07.406 --> 04:30.792\n我們的獵槍就已經出罪話可是我們提出來的數據可以看到每一年大概會有50件被判刑獵人被關起來判刑最主要的原因就是在法官那邊出了問題法官那邊會卡關因為每一位法官他的認定他的解讀其實是不一樣的所以我們舉個例子這邊有一個2014年\n\n04:37.651 --> 05:04.886\n秀林鄉的木骨木魚遭到破壞這邊砰砰砰砰砰還好張實的地檢署是不起訴處分因為這個法官他是在花蓮秀林大概這些年我也要感謝地檢署還有我們的司法院其實這些年我知道都有在做這種文化的一個講習因為我以前也經常受邀去做\n\n05:05.586 --> 05:33.628\n演講那我的意思是說有的法官就不知道啊不知道啊他很容易就會入罪呢所以次長署長這個怎麼辦八位我想這個在大王803號解釋啦或者是在這個憲法22條或政策條文第四條這個講的都已經很清楚了那這一部分是尊重我們原住民的這些文化或者是這些這個這個儀式這些這些都已經都都已經排除掉了\n\n05:34.315 --> 06:01.456\n那至於說這個司法怎麼去判你還是要依循這個大法官會議解釋跟這個憲法的相關規定來署長請跟委員報告那有關於原住民的持有制式類槍或者是原民的一個基本法我們都會把我們的警察的那個長年教育訓練我們每三個月都一個講習我會納入在這個講習的課程裡面讓我們原警多了解到原民的\n\n06:02.016 --> 06:29.415\n他的應有的一個基本法這是很好啦但是我們還是希望在條例裡面我這樣講好了這一次做的新增的一些條文其實很多的原住民團體都有意見那因為時間的關係我其實已經用書面取得警政署的回覆我也會轉達那今天在質詢這邊我本來想要問得更清楚但是我想說的是說我們反對的原因就是\n\n06:30.035 --> 06:49.056\n都還沒有同步修20條並且20條也還沒有全部施行上路大家也都還在使用原本的自製列槍零組件這個漏洞很大喔署長你應該明白吧對那所以這個部分喔我是希望說\n\n06:51.097 --> 07:16.309\n針對新增的第9條之1或者是修正的第4條新增的第5條之3新增的第13條之1新增的第20條之2這是我們很多原民團體有意見的部分可能會衝擊到我們的部分我希望這個部分我只要先講一個新增第5條之3你們提到說\n\n07:17.816 --> 07:45.584\n要組成一個槍砲彈藥審認的爭議諮詢小組但是我們說有沒有邀集原民團體及代表啊你們說針對涉及原住民自製獵槍等相關爭議案件會邀請原民會及相關專家學者列席諮詢啊欸列席捏我是說這個都已經是相關爭議案件了捏我們應該要出席吧要有表決權吧為什麼只是列席諮詢呢\n\n07:47.489 --> 08:10.343\n所以這個回覆我們有意見來署長請我跟委員報告我們在未來訂定那個數位辦法的時候會把它列得相當清楚包括顏名的代表我們都把它列進來我們可以出席嗎對當然可以出席那謝謝不要說列席諮詢好那所以這個地方我是希望說我們已經等的列強專法\n\n08:11.960 --> 08:26.157\n很感謝警政署順應民意辦了九場全國分區座談已經重新收整意見了齁那我只是希望說這個由內政部會協原民會國防部發布的部分\n\n08:27.830 --> 08:53.586\n我希望定一個清楚的公告實施的期程好不好要不然這個新舊法又新增這個空窗漏洞很大搞不好在這個部分很多的族人又會陰暗入獄好不好好謝謝永元這一部分我們在後面的這個法治程序現在就會現在台灣大概都有共識對那後面要走的是法治程序確定都有共識了有有有不會又蹦出來\n\n08:55.667 --> 09:23.378\n委員補充報告大概有大概我們開了好幾次會大概幾個大部分都有共識是那部分我們還在寫少許沒有共識的是不是可以早一點讓我們了解是我想這個部分開成不公是最好的溝通的方法好不好好謝謝次長謝謝署長那這些以上我希望兩個禮拜以內再提供我更清楚的答覆好謝謝主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":2.772,"text":"吳司長以及署長有請吳司長跟黃署長"},{"start":11.26,"end":35.269,"text":"市長好 署長好辦公室這邊有跟警政署希望能夠提供一個近幾年持槍的案件數但是我拿到的是槍擊案的案件數我不曉得說是不是對於持槍沒有去做統計"},{"start":38.289,"end":47.233,"text":"跟委員報告我們在提供可能當時在我們的認知上有錯誤這個我們在提供那個持有槍其實我是希望了解還有獵槍的數據就是持槍案裡面獵槍的數據因為我想這個部分對我們來講其實是問證也是很需要的一個基礎資料那就麻煩再提供"},{"start":65.16,"end":89.687,"text":"那另外我就是看到你們所提供的查緝槍支的情形非制式槍支是佔比最高這當中我們的獵槍它其實是含在這個非制式槍支裡面那為什麼我這樣子問因為這一次的一個修法的目的"},{"start":91.587,"end":118.541,"text":"理由就是看到現在社會改造槍支的方案比例越來越高 對嗎那也發現槍彈這些零組件沒有完全的納管那另外更重要的是大家都在談的就是現在原本我們這個是管制條例管制槍支的使用但是現在增加了一個就是開槍的行為"},{"start":120.007,"end":145.384,"text":"就是公然的開槍所以在這個部分現在以前我們看到是在刑法裡面處理那這一次呢在我們的這個槍炮彈藥管刀械管制條例裡面也把它納進來了所以在這個部分大家我們就有幾個疑慮像剛才大家都在問的就是原住民會經常做明槍啦"},{"start":146.482,"end":164.98,"text":"那當然我會知道你們的回答一定會說這個沒有問題可是要知道我們很多人其實是對於去申請這件事情是糊裡糊塗的我也看到很多祭儀活動的一個鳴槍儀式有時候我們會忘記"},{"start":166.956,"end":180.5,"text":"槍枝忘記登記要去申請這個動作我們一般來講都不太閒熟經常忘記不曉得說新增了這個第九條之一第二項之後會不會被處罰會不會用刑法來處罰感謝委員的指教這一部分已經都排除了啦已經排除在忘記申請也會排除"},{"start":198.045,"end":210.453,"text":"這一部分因為刑法的部分已經排除那行政法的部分還是有那怎麼辦我想這一部分我們會宣導啦我們會再去輔導他來做這個僅僅用宣導因為現在有一些的確像委員講的一樣"},{"start":217.938,"end":246.345,"text":"那有些他還不曉得要來申請許可這一部分我們會再透過相關的管道再讓我們所以只能用宣導嗎 次長因為 次長我跟您說三年多前那一次的修法就是這個槍砲彈藥盜竊管制條例當時對於零組件的處罪化大家意見很多因為他們會覺得說不是早在20多年前"},{"start":247.406,"end":270.792,"text":"我們的獵槍就已經出罪話可是我們提出來的數據可以看到每一年大概會有50件被判刑獵人被關起來判刑最主要的原因就是在法官那邊出了問題法官那邊會卡關因為每一位法官他的認定他的解讀其實是不一樣的所以我們舉個例子這邊有一個2014年"},{"start":277.651,"end":304.886,"text":"秀林鄉的木骨木魚遭到破壞這邊砰砰砰砰砰還好張實的地檢署是不起訴處分因為這個法官他是在花蓮秀林大概這些年我也要感謝地檢署還有我們的司法院其實這些年我知道都有在做這種文化的一個講習因為我以前也經常受邀去做"},{"start":305.586,"end":333.628,"text":"演講那我的意思是說有的法官就不知道啊不知道啊他很容易就會入罪呢所以次長署長這個怎麼辦八位我想這個在大王803號解釋啦或者是在這個憲法22條或政策條文第四條這個講的都已經很清楚了那這一部分是尊重我們原住民的這些文化或者是這些這個這個儀式這些這些都已經都都已經排除掉了"},{"start":334.315,"end":361.456,"text":"那至於說這個司法怎麼去判你還是要依循這個大法官會議解釋跟這個憲法的相關規定來 署長請跟委員報告那有關於原住民的持有制式類槍或者是原民的一個基本法我們都會把我們的警察的那個長年教育訓練我們每三個月都一個講習我會納入在這個講習的課程裡面讓我們原警多了解到原民的"},{"start":362.016,"end":389.415,"text":"他的應有的一個基本法這是很好啦但是我們還是希望在條例裡面我這樣講好了這一次做的新增的一些條文其實很多的原住民團體都有意見那因為時間的關係我其實已經用書面取得警政署的回覆我也會轉達那今天在質詢這邊我本來想要問得更清楚但是我想說的是說我們反對的原因就是"},{"start":390.035,"end":409.056,"text":"都還沒有同步修20條並且20條也還沒有全部施行上路大家也都還在使用原本的自製列槍零組件這個漏洞很大喔署長你應該明白吧對那所以這個部分喔我是希望說"},{"start":411.097,"end":436.309,"text":"針對新增的第9條之1或者是修正的第4條新增的第5條之3新增的第13條之1新增的第20條之2這是我們很多原民團體有意見的部分可能會衝擊到我們的部分我希望這個部分我只要先講一個新增第5條之3你們提到說"},{"start":437.816,"end":465.584,"text":"要組成一個槍砲彈藥審認的爭議諮詢小組但是我們說有沒有邀集原民團體及代表啊你們說針對涉及原住民自製獵槍等相關爭議案件會邀請原民會及相關專家學者列席諮詢啊欸列席捏我是說這個都已經是相關爭議案件了捏我們應該要出席吧要有表決權吧為什麼只是列席諮詢呢"},{"start":467.489,"end":490.343,"text":"所以這個回覆我們有意見來 署長 請我跟委員報告我們在未來訂定那個數位辦法的時候會把它列得相當清楚包括顏名的代表我們都把它列進來我們可以出席嗎對 當然可以出席那謝謝 不要說列席諮詢好 那所以這個地方我是希望說我們已經等的列強專法"},{"start":491.96,"end":506.157,"text":"很感謝警政署順應民意辦了九場全國分區座談已經重新收整意見了齁那我只是希望說這個由內政部會協原民會國防部發布的部分"},{"start":507.83,"end":533.586,"text":"我希望定一個清楚的公告實施的期程好不好要不然這個新舊法又新增這個空窗漏洞很大搞不好在這個部分很多的族人又會陰暗入獄好不好好 謝謝永元這一部分我們在後面的這個法治程序現在就會現在台灣大概都有共識對那後面要走的是法治程序確定都有共識了有有有不會又蹦出來"},{"start":535.667,"end":563.378,"text":"委員補充報告大概有大概我們開了好幾次會大概幾個大部分都有共識是那部分我們還在寫少許沒有共識的是不是可以早一點讓我們了解是我想這個部分開成不公是最好的溝通的方法好不好好謝謝次長謝謝署長那這些以上我希望兩個禮拜以內再提供我更清楚的答覆好謝謝主席"}]}}}}