{"id":148924,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148924","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1488b65508d71c045382c908ddd340b04f73b9825177cacbc986728e607a0322686bf1ce6383841d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"10:53:59 - 11:04:27","影片長度":"00:10:28","會議時間":"2023-12-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」：(一)審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案。二、「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之二條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查時代力量黨團擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第二十條之一條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員張其祿等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之一及第二十條之一條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員陳明文等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員陳柏惟、許智傑等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第七條及第二十二條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員羅美玲等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員王美惠等22人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查中華民國射擊活動暨射擊器材權益促進會為建議修正槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文請願文書1案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-12"},"date":"2023-12-07","duration":628,"end_time":"2023-12-07T11:04:27+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-07T10:53:59+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":605,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（10時54分）謝謝主席。部長已經離開了嗎？"],["主席：對，請假。"],["高金委員素梅：不好意思，那我們就請署長。"],["主席：警政署黃署長嗎？"],["高金委員素梅：對，黃署長。"],["主席：OK，好。"],["高金委員素梅：署長你好，對原住民漁民自製獵槍魚槍許可及管理辦法草案還沒有一個定案之前，你們又提出了槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案，其實本席對於第五條之二、第五條之三是有意見的。尤其是第五條之二，你寫「前項自製獵槍繼用人，以享有法定繼承權人之一人為限。但未成年人或無行為能力者，不得申請繼續持有。」你知道原住民的文化跟未成年是沒有關聯的嗎？所以這一條我今天不跟你討論，但逐條的時候我會跟你說。然後第五條之三，如果是槍砲彈藥審認爭議的時候，你們要遴聘這些專家學者，然後是由中央主管機關定之。想請問一下，這些人是誰？"],["黃署長明昭：專家學者大概針對槍砲有專業的。"],["高金委員素梅：那原住民族呢？"],["黃署長明昭：也會，我們在辦法裡面有把他納進來，我們會納進原住民的。"],["高金委員素梅：所以你的辦法出來了沒有？"],["黃署長明昭：還沒，通過以後我們才會訂定辦法。"],["高金委員素梅：你的意思是說修正通過之後你會訂定辦法？"],["黃署長明昭：是。"],["高金委員素梅：所以在修正之前我們就要知道你的辦法是什麼，希望你在修正之前把辦法先提出來，讓我們看到，否則不會讓你修正通過的，好不好？謝謝。","另外請國防部也上來一下，還有原民會。我要請教國防部，我不曉得國防部109年5月15號內政委員會在協商槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例的時候，你們在不在？您在嗎？"],["李副處長昌富：我本人不在。"],["高金委員素梅：什麼？"],["李副處長昌富：我本人不在。"],["高金委員素梅：請你大聲一點好不好？"],["李副處長昌富：我本人不在。"],["高金委員素梅：好，你本人不在。軍人要有軍人的樣子，好嗎？"],["李副處長昌富：是。"],["高金委員素梅：你不在，我就提醒你一下，109年5月15號槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第二十條第三項，高金素梅、鄭天財委員還有其他原住民立委在現場據以力爭，力爭什麼？我們希望槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第二十條第三項納入國防部，因此國防部納進來了，您看到條文了沒有？"],["李副處長昌富：有的。"],["高金委員素梅：好。因為有了第二十條第三項的規定，才會有原住民自製魚槍獵槍許可及管理辦法草案。這個草案您看過了嗎？"],["李副處長昌富：這個草案我看過了。"],["高金委員素梅：您看過了，您的責任是什麼？"],["李副處長昌富：我想應該主要是安全的問題。"],["高金委員素梅：不是，我唸給您聽。","第一條，本辦法依槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例（以下簡稱本條例）第二十條第三項規定訂定之。這是第一條開宗明義。","第二條，本辦法所定事項，由中央主管機關、中央原住民族主管機關及國防部就其權責範圍主動規劃、推動執行以及監督相關措施，並且應該全力配合，確實保障原住民得安全從事合法狩獵活動。權責如下：一、中央主管機關（也就是警政署）負責管理政策、法規及方案的研究、規劃、訂定、執行及解釋，並且統籌輔導相關申請事宜。二、國防部要負責原住民自製獵槍主要組成零件的研製、選購、輔導、組合，包括組裝，並且協助相關安全使用訓練事宜。中央原民會做什麼呢？它要負責原住民自製獵槍安全使用訓練規劃、訂定、計畫與執行，並且協助相關申請跟管理事宜。請問一下原民會今天出席的代表，處長，原住民在這個法規沒有產生之前，我們有沒有自製獵槍了？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：報告委員，有。"],["高金委員素梅：好。這個自製獵槍是不是現在都依法可以申請？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：是。"],["高金委員素梅：好。現在唯一的問題就是在於原住民在做這些零組件組合的時候，都是依照祖先傳承下來的智慧，並沒有軍人所謂國防部裡面的體系，我們稱聯勤兵工來協助我們，因此有非常多爆炸，以及傷到自己或有危及生命安全的作為，對不對？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：是，目前的狀況確實都是自己製造的。"],["高金委員素梅：因此請國防部告訴我，管理辦法裡面有講到您必須要研製，可是在你的管理辦法草案裡面，國防部除了第二條第二項有講你的權責，裡面全部都沒有耶！國防部在這裡面是沒有角色的耶！你好像對這件事情已經不在法規裡頭了耶！所以本席今天要求國防部、也要求行政院，因為我知道這個條例新增是依照111年5月3號行政院召開業務分工的會議，核定這個辦法的業務分工原則是行政院喔！你們居然不管行政院告訴你必須要研發、研製，然後你就一直告訴族人說，第一個，你現在合法的獵槍，你可以擁有，但是兩年以後你就不可以再自製了；然後警政署這個管理辦法一直告訴我們說我們要進口獵槍，然後告訴我們這個獵槍的價錢是1萬5,000到4萬，不僅僅這樣喔！還有什麼呢？還有請領執照的費用喔！還有什麼呢？要指定集體保管，然後又個別保管，集體保管又幹嘛呢？集體保管又要找一個有符合安全規範的水泥房。請問一下原民會的處長，原住民地區有那麼多合法的水泥庫房可以來集中保管我們的槍枝嗎？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：據瞭解目前應該是沒有。"],["高金委員素梅：所以嘛！我們有沒有看到我們的政府在制定法令的時候，根本沒有依照法令的精神來制定規範，你們就用你們自己的想像，根本也是找不到一個合法的土地，然後大家還非常辛苦辦理了8場地方的座談會，本席也參加了，裡面談一些小細節的問題，大方向的問題都不去討論，我覺得我們的政府是這樣子做事情的嗎？我們的政府是這樣子來推卸責任，然後來告訴原住民族什麼叫做獵人、什麼叫做尊重文化、什麼叫做轉型正義嗎？不可以這樣欺負原住民！","所以在這裡本席要針對三個部會，第一、警政署，第二、國防部，第三、原民會，請你們重新再討論這個管理辦法，依照111年5月3號行政院召開的業務分工會議，核定辦法的業務有三個權責，請你們分別回去制定你們自己應該做什麼業務分工，不是只有唯一的一條路就是從外面進口，我發現如果從外面進口，你們好像又要製造另外一條路，讓有錢的、可以拿到執照的這些人又繼續有錢，又要圖利某些人！我覺得民進黨政府不可以再這樣子用原住民獵人的安全，再罔顧原住民獵人的生命財產。以上，我的質詢時間到了，我希望你們這三個單位在選舉之前到我的辦公室裡面來回答我今天的質詢，因為時間不夠，除非署長你要再回答、國防部你要回答、原民會你要回答，要回答嗎？"],["黃署長明昭：謝謝委員，剛剛委員的要求我們會找時間跟委員這邊做報告。"],["高金委員素梅：什麼時候？"],["黃署長明昭：看委員的時間。"],["高金委員素梅：好，歡迎你們在選舉之前，因為選舉之前我必須在這邊告訴我的族人，不要再被某些人騙了！告訴你說漁民、原住民的自製獵槍、魚槍，我們已經有管理辦法了，但是這個管理辦法卻不是依照槍砲彈藥管制條例第二十條裡面的規範，國防部必須要負起責任，而國防部根本在這裡面沒有角色！選舉之前讓我的獵人、族人都知道，好嗎？國防部請你們擔起角色，請原民會也好好地監督他們。謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝高金素梅委員。","邱臣遠、邱臣遠、邱臣遠委員不在。","接下來我們請黃世杰委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-12","speakers":["羅美玲","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","陳琬惠","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳玉珍","李德維","張宏陸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","高金素梅","黃世杰","賴品妤","林文瑞"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-07"],"gazette_id":"1129702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129702_00002","1129702_00003","1129702_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」：(一)審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「中華民國專屬\n經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「中華民國\n專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案；二、「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例」：(一)\n審查行政院函請審議「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 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\"score\": 0.162}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 619.084, \"end\": 619.104, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 619.104, \"end\": 619.184, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 619.184, \"end\": 619.284, \"score\": 0.654}, {\"word\": \"監\"}, {\"word\": \"督\", \"start\": 619.284, \"end\": 619.464, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 619.464, \"end\": 619.484, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,970 --> 00:00:07,258\n不好意思部長是已經離開了嗎對不好意思那我們就請署長署長嗎警政署黃署長嗎黃署長OK好\n\n2\n00:00:15,231 --> 00:00:35,790\n署長您好對原住民漁民自製獵槍漁艙許可跟管理辦法草案還沒有一個定案之前你們又提出了槍砲彈藥刀劫管制條例部分條文的修正草案其實本席對於第五條之二第五條之三是有意見的尤其是第五條之二\n\n3\n00:00:36,491 --> 00:00:51,933\n你寫前向自製獵槍技用人以享有法定繼承權人之一人違憲但未成年人或無行為能力者不得申請繼續持有你知道原住民的文化跟未成年是沒有關聯的嗎\n\n4\n00:00:53,815 --> 00:01:14,675\n所以這一條我今天不跟你討論但是主條的時候我會跟你說然後第五條第三呢你們如果是槍炮代價條例的審議爭議的時候你們要聆聘這些專家學者然後是由中央主管機關定制想請問一下這些人是誰我想專家學者大概針對槍炮的有專業的這些\n\n5\n00:01:17,338 --> 00:01:42,187\n那原住民族呢也會我們在辦法裡面有把它納進來我會納進來我們原住民所以你的辦法出來了沒有還沒這個好通過以後我們才訂定辦法你的意思說修正通過之後你會訂定辦法所以在修正之前呢我們就要知道你的辦法是什麼希望你在修正之前把辦法先提出來讓我們看到否則的話不會讓你修正通過的好不好謝謝另外有請國防部也上來一下還有園民會\n\n6\n00:01:46,752 --> 00:02:15,184\n好我要請教國防部我不曉得國防部在109年的5月15號在這個內政委員會裡面在協商槍炮彈藥道歉管制條例的時候你們在不在您在嗎我本人不在請你大聲一點好不好我本人不在你本人不在軍人要有軍人的樣子好嗎那你不在我就提醒你一下請我們的助理放一下照片\n\n7\n00:02:16,898 --> 00:02:44,859\n109年的5月15號槍炮彈藥刀戒管制條例的第20條第三項高精素美我鄭天才委員還有其他原住民立委在現場拒以力爭力爭什麼我們希望槍炮彈藥刀戒管制條例的第20條第三項裡面納入國防部因此國防部進來了您看到條文了沒有有的好\n\n8\n00:02:46,084 --> 00:02:58,552\n因為有了第20條第3項的規定因此才會有了原住民自治漁槍獵槍許可跟管理辦法草案這個草案您看過了嗎這草案我看過了是您看過了您的責任是什麼\n\n9\n00:03:05,413 --> 00:03:31,959\n我想應該主要是安全的問題不是我念給您聽第一條本辦法依槍砲彈藥刀藉管制條例以下簡稱本條例第20條第三項規定並定之這是第一條開宗明義第二條本辦法所定的事項由中央主管機關中央援助民族主管機關以及國防部就其權責範圍主動\n\n10\n00:03:36,221 --> 00:03:55,194\n規劃推動執行以及監督相關措施並且應該全力配合確實保障原住民的安全從事合法狩獵活動全責如下第一\n\n11\n00:03:55,914 --> 00:04:04,666\n中央主管機關,也就是警政署,負責管理政策、法規還有方案的研究、規劃、訂定、執行還有解釋,並且他要統籌輔導相關申請事宜\n\n12\n00:04:13,678 --> 00:04:35,137\n第二国防部你要负责援助民自制猎枪主要组成临界的研制选购辅导组合包括组装并且你要协助相关安全使用训练事宜\n\n13\n00:04:36,465 --> 00:04:59,147\n中央原民會做什麼呢?他要負責原住民自製獵槍安全使用訓練規劃定定計劃與執行並且協助相關申請跟管理事宜請問一下原民會的這個今天出席的代表處長原住民在這個法規沒有產生之前我們有沒有自製獵槍了?\n\n14\n00:05:04,398 --> 00:05:23,318\n這個自治列腔是不是現在都依法可以申請現在唯一的問題就是在於原住民在做這些零組建組合的時候都是依照祖先傳承下來的智慧他並沒有一個所謂的\n\n15\n00:05:25,460 --> 00:05:41,915\n軍人所謂的這個國防部裡面的體系我們稱聯勤兵工來協助我們因此非常多這個暴然後以及傷到自己或生命的安全的作為對不對所以因此國防部請您來請您告訴我\n\n16\n00:05:50,289 --> 00:06:13,591\n這個管理辦法裡面有講到您必須要研製就是你不是只有可是我在你的管理辦法草案裡面國防部除了第二條的第二項有講你的權責裡面全部都沒有國防部你在裡面是沒有角色的你好像對這件事情已經不在法規裡頭了\n\n17\n00:06:15,493 --> 00:06:39,464\n所以本席今天要求國防部也要求行政院因為我知道這個條例這個條例新增是依照111年的5月3號行政院有召開業務分工的會議核定這個辦法的業務的分工原則是行政院喔你們居然不管行政院告訴你必須要研發研製\n\n18\n00:06:41,445 --> 00:06:45,126\n然後你就一直告訴族人說我們必須要第一個是你現在合法的獵槍你可以擁有但是你必須兩年以後你就不可以再自治了然後警政署這個管理辦法一直告訴我們說我們要進口獵槍然後這個獵槍是大概是我們的價錢是一萬五到四萬\n\n19\n00:07:06,252 --> 00:07:11,214\n然後不僅僅這樣他還有什麼呢他還有請領執照的費用還有什麼呢要指定集體保管然後又個別保管集體保管又幹嘛呢集體保管又要找一個有符合安全規範的水泥房再請問一下園民會的處長園居民地區有那麼多合法的水泥的庫房可以來集中保管我們的槍支嗎\n\n20\n00:07:36,382 --> 00:07:38,869\n最了解目前應該是沒有啊所以嘛\n\n21\n00:07:40,407 --> 00:08:01,718\n我們有沒有看到我們的政府在制定法令的時候根本沒有依照法令的精神來制定規範你們就用你們自己的想像根本也是找不到一個合法的土地然後大家還非常的辛苦辦理了八場的地方的座談會本席也參加了裡面談一些小細節的問題大方向的問題都不去討論我覺得我們的政府是這樣子做事情的嗎\n\n22\n00:08:08,462 --> 00:08:19,666\n我們的政府是這樣子的來這個來推卸責任然後來告訴原住民族什麼叫做獵人什麼叫做尊重文化嗎什麼叫做轉型正義嗎不可以這樣欺負原住民的所以在這裡本席要針對三個部會第一警政署第二國防部第三人民會請你們重新再討論這個管理辦法\n\n23\n00:08:35,512 --> 00:08:56,151\n依照111年5月3号行政院召开的业务分工会议核定的办法的业务有三个全责你请你们分别回去制定你们自己应该做什么业务分工不是只有唯一的条路就是从外面进口\n\n24\n00:08:56,852 --> 00:09:18,862\n我發現如果從外面進口你們好像又要製造另外一條路讓有錢的可以拿到執照的這些人他又繼續有錢又要圖利某些人我覺得民進黨政府不可以再這樣子用原住民的獵人的安全來再罔顧原住民獵人的生命財產\n\n25\n00:09:20,729 --> 00:09:36,603\n以上我的質詢時間到了我希望你們這三個單位在選舉之前到我的辦公室裡面來回答我今天的質詢因為時間不夠除非組長你要再回答國防部你要回答人民會你要回答要回答嗎\n\n26\n00:09:40,878 --> 00:09:57,096\n謝謝委員那剛剛委員的要求我們會找時間跟委員這邊做報告什麼時候看委員的時間好歡迎你們在選舉之前因為選舉之前我必須在這邊告訴我的族人不要再被某些人騙了\n\n27\n00:09:58,377 --> 00:10:19,484\n告訴你說漁民原住民的自製獵槍漁槍我們已經有管理辦法了但是這個管理辦法卻不是依照槍砲彈藥管制條例的第20條裡面的規範國防部必須要負起責任而國防部根本在這裡面沒有角色選擇之前讓我的獵人的族人都知道好嗎國防部請你們擔起角色請人民會也好好的監督他們謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n970\t7258\t不好意思 部長是已經離開了嗎對不好意思 那我們就請署長署長嗎 警政署 黃署長嗎黃署長 OK 好\n15231\t35790\t署長您好對原住民漁民自製獵槍漁艙許可跟管理辦法草案還沒有一個定案之前你們又提出了槍砲彈藥刀劫管制條例部分條文的修正草案其實本席對於第五條之二第五條之三是有意見的尤其是第五條之二\n36491\t51933\t你寫前向自製獵槍技用人以享有法定繼承權人之一人違憲但未成年人或無行為能力者不得申請繼續持有你知道原住民的文化跟未成年是沒有關聯的嗎\n53815\t74675\t所以這一條我今天不跟你討論但是主條的時候我會跟你說然後第五條第三呢你們如果是槍炮代價條例的審議爭議的時候你們要聆聘這些專家學者然後是由中央主管機關定制想請問一下這些人是誰我想專家學者大概針對槍炮的有專業的這些\n77338\t102187\t那原住民族呢也會我們在辦法裡面有把它納進來我會納進來我們原住民所以你的辦法出來了沒有還沒這個好通過以後我們才訂定辦法你的意思說修正通過之後你會訂定辦法所以在修正之前呢我們就要知道你的辦法是什麼希望你在修正之前把辦法先提出來讓我們看到否則的話不會讓你修正通過的好不好謝謝另外有請國防部也上來一下還有園民會\n106752\t135184\t好 我要請教國防部我不曉得國防部在109年的5月15號在這個內政委員會裡面在協商槍炮彈藥道歉管制條例的時候你們在不在 您在嗎我本人不在請你大聲一點好不好我本人不在你本人不在 軍人要有軍人的樣子好嗎那你不在我就提醒你一下請我們的助理放一下照片\n136898\t164859\t109年的5月15號槍炮彈藥刀戒管制條例的第20條第三項高精素美我鄭天才委員還有其他原住民立委在現場拒以力爭力爭什麼我們希望槍炮彈藥刀戒管制條例的第20條第三項裡面納入國防部因此國防部進來了您看到條文了沒有有的好\n166084\t178552\t因為有了第20條第3項的規定因此才會有了原住民自治漁槍獵槍許可跟管理辦法草案這個草案您看過了嗎這草案我看過了是您看過了 您的責任是什麼\n185413\t211959\t我想應該主要是安全的問題不是我念給您聽第一條本辦法依槍砲彈藥刀藉管制條例以下簡稱本條例第20條第三項規定並定之這是第一條開宗明義第二條本辦法所定的事項由中央主管機關中央援助民族主管機關以及國防部就其權責範圍主動\n216221\t235194\t規劃推動執行以及監督相關措施並且應該全力配合確實保障原住民的安全從事合法狩獵活動全責如下第一\n235914\t244666\t中央主管機關,也就是警政署,負責管理政策、法規還有方案的研究、規劃、訂定、執行還有解釋,並且他要統籌輔導相關申請事宜\n253678\t275137\t第二国防部你要负责援助民自制猎枪主要组成临界的研制选购辅导组合包括组装并且你要协助相关安全使用训练事宜\n276465\t299147\t中央原民會做什麼呢?他要負責原住民自製獵槍安全使用訓練規劃定定計劃與執行並且協助相關申請跟管理事宜請問一下原民會的這個今天出席的代表處長原住民在這個法規沒有產生之前我們有沒有自製獵槍了?\n304398\t323318\t這個自治列腔是不是現在都依法可以申請現在唯一的問題就是在於原住民在做這些零組建組合的時候都是依照祖先傳承下來的智慧他並沒有一個所謂的\n325460\t341915\t軍人所謂的這個國防部裡面的體系我們稱聯勤兵工來協助我們因此非常多這個暴然後以及傷到自己或生命的安全的作為對不對所以因此國防部請您來請您告訴我\n350289\t373591\t這個管理辦法裡面有講到您必須要研製就是你不是只有可是我在你的管理辦法草案裡面國防部除了第二條的第二項有講你的權責裡面全部都沒有國防部你在裡面是沒有角色的你好像對這件事情已經不在法規裡頭了\n375493\t399464\t所以本席今天要求國防部也要求行政院因為我知道這個條例這個條例新增是依照111年的5月3號行政院有召開業務分工的會議核定這個辦法的業務的分工原則是行政院喔你們居然不管行政院告訴你必須要研發研製\n401445\t405126\t然後你就一直告訴族人說我們必須要第一個是你現在合法的獵槍你可以擁有但是你必須兩年以後你就不可以再自治了然後警政署這個管理辦法一直告訴我們說我們要進口獵槍然後這個獵槍是大概是我們的價錢是一萬五到四萬\n426252\t431214\t然後不僅僅這樣 他還有什麼呢 他還有請領執照的費用還有什麼呢 要指定集體保管 然後又個別保管集體保管又幹嘛呢 集體保管又要找一個有符合安全規範的水泥房再請問一下園民會的處長 園居民地區有那麼多合法的水泥的庫房可以來集中保管我們的槍支嗎\n456382\t458869\t最了解目前應該是沒有啊所以嘛\n460407\t481718\t我們有沒有看到我們的政府在制定法令的時候根本沒有依照法令的精神來制定規範你們就用你們自己的想像根本也是找不到一個合法的土地然後大家還非常的辛苦辦理了八場的地方的座談會本席也參加了裡面談一些小細節的問題大方向的問題都不去討論我覺得我們的政府是這樣子做事情的嗎\n488462\t499666\t我們的政府是這樣子的來這個來推卸責任然後來告訴原住民族什麼叫做獵人什麼叫做尊重文化嗎什麼叫做轉型正義嗎不可以這樣欺負原住民的所以在這裡本席要針對三個部會第一警政署第二國防部第三人民會請你們重新再討論這個管理辦法\n515512\t536151\t依照111年5月3号行政院召开的业务分工会议核定的办法的业务有三个全责你请你们分别回去制定你们自己应该做什么业务分工不是只有唯一的条路就是从外面进口\n536852\t558862\t我發現如果從外面進口你們好像又要製造另外一條路讓有錢的可以拿到執照的這些人他又繼續有錢又要圖利某些人我覺得民進黨政府不可以再這樣子用原住民的獵人的安全來再罔顧原住民獵人的生命財產\n560729\t576603\t以上我的質詢時間到了我希望你們這三個單位在選舉之前到我的辦公室裡面來回答我今天的質詢因為時間不夠除非組長你要再回答國防部你要回答 人民會你要回答要回答嗎\n580878\t597096\t謝謝委員 那剛剛委員的要求我們會找時間跟委員這邊做報告什麼時候看委員的時間好 歡迎你們在選舉之前因為選舉之前我必須在這邊告訴我的族人不要再被某些人騙了\n598377\t619484\t告訴你說漁民原住民的自製獵槍漁槍我們已經有管理辦法了但是這個管理辦法卻不是依照槍砲彈藥管制條例的第20條裡面的規範國防部必須要負起責任而國防部根本在這裡面沒有角色選擇之前讓我的獵人的族人都知道好嗎國防部請你們擔起角色請人民會也好好的監督他們謝謝\n","txt":"不好意思 部長是已經離開了嗎對不好意思 那我們就請署長署長嗎 警政署 黃署長嗎黃署長 OK 好\n署長您好對原住民漁民自製獵槍漁艙許可跟管理辦法草案還沒有一個定案之前你們又提出了槍砲彈藥刀劫管制條例部分條文的修正草案其實本席對於第五條之二第五條之三是有意見的尤其是第五條之二\n你寫前向自製獵槍技用人以享有法定繼承權人之一人違憲但未成年人或無行為能力者不得申請繼續持有你知道原住民的文化跟未成年是沒有關聯的嗎\n所以這一條我今天不跟你討論但是主條的時候我會跟你說然後第五條第三呢你們如果是槍炮代價條例的審議爭議的時候你們要聆聘這些專家學者然後是由中央主管機關定制想請問一下這些人是誰我想專家學者大概針對槍炮的有專業的這些\n那原住民族呢也會我們在辦法裡面有把它納進來我會納進來我們原住民所以你的辦法出來了沒有還沒這個好通過以後我們才訂定辦法你的意思說修正通過之後你會訂定辦法所以在修正之前呢我們就要知道你的辦法是什麼希望你在修正之前把辦法先提出來讓我們看到否則的話不會讓你修正通過的好不好謝謝另外有請國防部也上來一下還有園民會\n好 我要請教國防部我不曉得國防部在109年的5月15號在這個內政委員會裡面在協商槍炮彈藥道歉管制條例的時候你們在不在 您在嗎我本人不在請你大聲一點好不好我本人不在你本人不在 軍人要有軍人的樣子好嗎那你不在我就提醒你一下請我們的助理放一下照片\n109年的5月15號槍炮彈藥刀戒管制條例的第20條第三項高精素美我鄭天才委員還有其他原住民立委在現場拒以力爭力爭什麼我們希望槍炮彈藥刀戒管制條例的第20條第三項裡面納入國防部因此國防部進來了您看到條文了沒有有的好\n因為有了第20條第3項的規定因此才會有了原住民自治漁槍獵槍許可跟管理辦法草案這個草案您看過了嗎這草案我看過了是您看過了 您的責任是什麼\n我想應該主要是安全的問題不是我念給您聽第一條本辦法依槍砲彈藥刀藉管制條例以下簡稱本條例第20條第三項規定並定之這是第一條開宗明義第二條本辦法所定的事項由中央主管機關中央援助民族主管機關以及國防部就其權責範圍主動\n規劃推動執行以及監督相關措施並且應該全力配合確實保障原住民的安全從事合法狩獵活動全責如下第一\n中央主管機關,也就是警政署,負責管理政策、法規還有方案的研究、規劃、訂定、執行還有解釋,並且他要統籌輔導相關申請事宜\n第二国防部你要负责援助民自制猎枪主要组成临界的研制选购辅导组合包括组装并且你要协助相关安全使用训练事宜\n中央原民會做什麼呢?他要負責原住民自製獵槍安全使用訓練規劃定定計劃與執行並且協助相關申請跟管理事宜請問一下原民會的這個今天出席的代表處長原住民在這個法規沒有產生之前我們有沒有自製獵槍了?\n這個自治列腔是不是現在都依法可以申請現在唯一的問題就是在於原住民在做這些零組建組合的時候都是依照祖先傳承下來的智慧他並沒有一個所謂的\n軍人所謂的這個國防部裡面的體系我們稱聯勤兵工來協助我們因此非常多這個暴然後以及傷到自己或生命的安全的作為對不對所以因此國防部請您來請您告訴我\n這個管理辦法裡面有講到您必須要研製就是你不是只有可是我在你的管理辦法草案裡面國防部除了第二條的第二項有講你的權責裡面全部都沒有國防部你在裡面是沒有角色的你好像對這件事情已經不在法規裡頭了\n所以本席今天要求國防部也要求行政院因為我知道這個條例這個條例新增是依照111年的5月3號行政院有召開業務分工的會議核定這個辦法的業務的分工原則是行政院喔你們居然不管行政院告訴你必須要研發研製\n然後你就一直告訴族人說我們必須要第一個是你現在合法的獵槍你可以擁有但是你必須兩年以後你就不可以再自治了然後警政署這個管理辦法一直告訴我們說我們要進口獵槍然後這個獵槍是大概是我們的價錢是一萬五到四萬\n然後不僅僅這樣 他還有什麼呢 他還有請領執照的費用還有什麼呢 要指定集體保管 然後又個別保管集體保管又幹嘛呢 集體保管又要找一個有符合安全規範的水泥房再請問一下園民會的處長 園居民地區有那麼多合法的水泥的庫房可以來集中保管我們的槍支嗎\n最了解目前應該是沒有啊所以嘛\n我們有沒有看到我們的政府在制定法令的時候根本沒有依照法令的精神來制定規範你們就用你們自己的想像根本也是找不到一個合法的土地然後大家還非常的辛苦辦理了八場的地方的座談會本席也參加了裡面談一些小細節的問題大方向的問題都不去討論我覺得我們的政府是這樣子做事情的嗎\n我們的政府是這樣子的來這個來推卸責任然後來告訴原住民族什麼叫做獵人什麼叫做尊重文化嗎什麼叫做轉型正義嗎不可以這樣欺負原住民的所以在這裡本席要針對三個部會第一警政署第二國防部第三人民會請你們重新再討論這個管理辦法\n依照111年5月3号行政院召开的业务分工会议核定的办法的业务有三个全责你请你们分别回去制定你们自己应该做什么业务分工不是只有唯一的条路就是从外面进口\n我發現如果從外面進口你們好像又要製造另外一條路讓有錢的可以拿到執照的這些人他又繼續有錢又要圖利某些人我覺得民進黨政府不可以再這樣子用原住民的獵人的安全來再罔顧原住民獵人的生命財產\n以上我的質詢時間到了我希望你們這三個單位在選舉之前到我的辦公室裡面來回答我今天的質詢因為時間不夠除非組長你要再回答國防部你要回答 人民會你要回答要回答嗎\n謝謝委員 那剛剛委員的要求我們會找時間跟委員這邊做報告什麼時候看委員的時間好 歡迎你們在選舉之前因為選舉之前我必須在這邊告訴我的族人不要再被某些人騙了\n告訴你說漁民原住民的自製獵槍漁槍我們已經有管理辦法了但是這個管理辦法卻不是依照槍砲彈藥管制條例的第20條裡面的規範國防部必須要負起責任而國防部根本在這裡面沒有角色選擇之前讓我的獵人的族人都知道好嗎國防部請你們擔起角色請人民會也好好的監督他們謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.970 --> 00:07.258\n不好意思部長是已經離開了嗎對不好意思那我們就請署長署長嗎警政署黃署長嗎黃署長OK好\n\n00:15.231 --> 00:35.790\n署長您好對原住民漁民自製獵槍漁艙許可跟管理辦法草案還沒有一個定案之前你們又提出了槍砲彈藥刀劫管制條例部分條文的修正草案其實本席對於第五條之二第五條之三是有意見的尤其是第五條之二\n\n00:36.491 --> 00:51.933\n你寫前向自製獵槍技用人以享有法定繼承權人之一人違憲但未成年人或無行為能力者不得申請繼續持有你知道原住民的文化跟未成年是沒有關聯的嗎\n\n00:53.815 --> 01:14.675\n所以這一條我今天不跟你討論但是主條的時候我會跟你說然後第五條第三呢你們如果是槍炮代價條例的審議爭議的時候你們要聆聘這些專家學者然後是由中央主管機關定制想請問一下這些人是誰我想專家學者大概針對槍炮的有專業的這些\n\n01:17.338 --> 01:42.187\n那原住民族呢也會我們在辦法裡面有把它納進來我會納進來我們原住民所以你的辦法出來了沒有還沒這個好通過以後我們才訂定辦法你的意思說修正通過之後你會訂定辦法所以在修正之前呢我們就要知道你的辦法是什麼希望你在修正之前把辦法先提出來讓我們看到否則的話不會讓你修正通過的好不好謝謝另外有請國防部也上來一下還有園民會\n\n01:46.752 --> 02:15.184\n好我要請教國防部我不曉得國防部在109年的5月15號在這個內政委員會裡面在協商槍炮彈藥道歉管制條例的時候你們在不在您在嗎我本人不在請你大聲一點好不好我本人不在你本人不在軍人要有軍人的樣子好嗎那你不在我就提醒你一下請我們的助理放一下照片\n\n02:16.898 --> 02:44.859\n109年的5月15號槍炮彈藥刀戒管制條例的第20條第三項高精素美我鄭天才委員還有其他原住民立委在現場拒以力爭力爭什麼我們希望槍炮彈藥刀戒管制條例的第20條第三項裡面納入國防部因此國防部進來了您看到條文了沒有有的好\n\n02:46.084 --> 02:58.552\n因為有了第20條第3項的規定因此才會有了原住民自治漁槍獵槍許可跟管理辦法草案這個草案您看過了嗎這草案我看過了是您看過了您的責任是什麼\n\n03:05.413 --> 03:31.959\n我想應該主要是安全的問題不是我念給您聽第一條本辦法依槍砲彈藥刀藉管制條例以下簡稱本條例第20條第三項規定並定之這是第一條開宗明義第二條本辦法所定的事項由中央主管機關中央援助民族主管機關以及國防部就其權責範圍主動\n\n03:36.221 --> 03:55.194\n規劃推動執行以及監督相關措施並且應該全力配合確實保障原住民的安全從事合法狩獵活動全責如下第一\n\n03:55.914 --> 04:04.666\n中央主管機關,也就是警政署,負責管理政策、法規還有方案的研究、規劃、訂定、執行還有解釋,並且他要統籌輔導相關申請事宜\n\n04:13.678 --> 04:35.137\n第二国防部你要负责援助民自制猎枪主要组成临界的研制选购辅导组合包括组装并且你要协助相关安全使用训练事宜\n\n04:36.465 --> 04:59.147\n中央原民會做什麼呢?他要負責原住民自製獵槍安全使用訓練規劃定定計劃與執行並且協助相關申請跟管理事宜請問一下原民會的這個今天出席的代表處長原住民在這個法規沒有產生之前我們有沒有自製獵槍了?\n\n05:04.398 --> 05:23.318\n這個自治列腔是不是現在都依法可以申請現在唯一的問題就是在於原住民在做這些零組建組合的時候都是依照祖先傳承下來的智慧他並沒有一個所謂的\n\n05:25.460 --> 05:41.915\n軍人所謂的這個國防部裡面的體系我們稱聯勤兵工來協助我們因此非常多這個暴然後以及傷到自己或生命的安全的作為對不對所以因此國防部請您來請您告訴我\n\n05:50.289 --> 06:13.591\n這個管理辦法裡面有講到您必須要研製就是你不是只有可是我在你的管理辦法草案裡面國防部除了第二條的第二項有講你的權責裡面全部都沒有國防部你在裡面是沒有角色的你好像對這件事情已經不在法規裡頭了\n\n06:15.493 --> 06:39.464\n所以本席今天要求國防部也要求行政院因為我知道這個條例這個條例新增是依照111年的5月3號行政院有召開業務分工的會議核定這個辦法的業務的分工原則是行政院喔你們居然不管行政院告訴你必須要研發研製\n\n06:41.445 --> 06:45.126\n然後你就一直告訴族人說我們必須要第一個是你現在合法的獵槍你可以擁有但是你必須兩年以後你就不可以再自治了然後警政署這個管理辦法一直告訴我們說我們要進口獵槍然後這個獵槍是大概是我們的價錢是一萬五到四萬\n\n07:06.252 --> 07:11.214\n然後不僅僅這樣他還有什麼呢他還有請領執照的費用還有什麼呢要指定集體保管然後又個別保管集體保管又幹嘛呢集體保管又要找一個有符合安全規範的水泥房再請問一下園民會的處長園居民地區有那麼多合法的水泥的庫房可以來集中保管我們的槍支嗎\n\n07:36.382 --> 07:38.869\n最了解目前應該是沒有啊所以嘛\n\n07:40.407 --> 08:01.718\n我們有沒有看到我們的政府在制定法令的時候根本沒有依照法令的精神來制定規範你們就用你們自己的想像根本也是找不到一個合法的土地然後大家還非常的辛苦辦理了八場的地方的座談會本席也參加了裡面談一些小細節的問題大方向的問題都不去討論我覺得我們的政府是這樣子做事情的嗎\n\n08:08.462 --> 08:19.666\n我們的政府是這樣子的來這個來推卸責任然後來告訴原住民族什麼叫做獵人什麼叫做尊重文化嗎什麼叫做轉型正義嗎不可以這樣欺負原住民的所以在這裡本席要針對三個部會第一警政署第二國防部第三人民會請你們重新再討論這個管理辦法\n\n08:35.512 --> 08:56.151\n依照111年5月3号行政院召开的业务分工会议核定的办法的业务有三个全责你请你们分别回去制定你们自己应该做什么业务分工不是只有唯一的条路就是从外面进口\n\n08:56.852 --> 09:18.862\n我發現如果從外面進口你們好像又要製造另外一條路讓有錢的可以拿到執照的這些人他又繼續有錢又要圖利某些人我覺得民進黨政府不可以再這樣子用原住民的獵人的安全來再罔顧原住民獵人的生命財產\n\n09:20.729 --> 09:36.603\n以上我的質詢時間到了我希望你們這三個單位在選舉之前到我的辦公室裡面來回答我今天的質詢因為時間不夠除非組長你要再回答國防部你要回答人民會你要回答要回答嗎\n\n09:40.878 --> 09:57.096\n謝謝委員那剛剛委員的要求我們會找時間跟委員這邊做報告什麼時候看委員的時間好歡迎你們在選舉之前因為選舉之前我必須在這邊告訴我的族人不要再被某些人騙了\n\n09:58.377 --> 10:19.484\n告訴你說漁民原住民的自製獵槍漁槍我們已經有管理辦法了但是這個管理辦法卻不是依照槍砲彈藥管制條例的第20條裡面的規範國防部必須要負起責任而國防部根本在這裡面沒有角色選擇之前讓我的獵人的族人都知道好嗎國防部請你們擔起角色請人民會也好好的監督他們謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.97,"end":7.258,"text":"不好意思 部長是已經離開了嗎對不好意思 那我們就請署長署長嗎 警政署 黃署長嗎黃署長 OK 好"},{"start":15.231,"end":35.79,"text":"署長您好對原住民漁民自製獵槍漁艙許可跟管理辦法草案還沒有一個定案之前你們又提出了槍砲彈藥刀劫管制條例部分條文的修正草案其實本席對於第五條之二第五條之三是有意見的尤其是第五條之二"},{"start":36.491,"end":51.933,"text":"你寫前向自製獵槍技用人以享有法定繼承權人之一人違憲但未成年人或無行為能力者不得申請繼續持有你知道原住民的文化跟未成年是沒有關聯的嗎"},{"start":53.815,"end":74.675,"text":"所以這一條我今天不跟你討論但是主條的時候我會跟你說然後第五條第三呢你們如果是槍炮代價條例的審議爭議的時候你們要聆聘這些專家學者然後是由中央主管機關定制想請問一下這些人是誰我想專家學者大概針對槍炮的有專業的這些"},{"start":77.338,"end":102.187,"text":"那原住民族呢也會我們在辦法裡面有把它納進來我會納進來我們原住民所以你的辦法出來了沒有還沒這個好通過以後我們才訂定辦法你的意思說修正通過之後你會訂定辦法所以在修正之前呢我們就要知道你的辦法是什麼希望你在修正之前把辦法先提出來讓我們看到否則的話不會讓你修正通過的好不好謝謝另外有請國防部也上來一下還有園民會"},{"start":106.752,"end":135.184,"text":"好 我要請教國防部我不曉得國防部在109年的5月15號在這個內政委員會裡面在協商槍炮彈藥道歉管制條例的時候你們在不在 您在嗎我本人不在請你大聲一點好不好我本人不在你本人不在 軍人要有軍人的樣子好嗎那你不在我就提醒你一下請我們的助理放一下照片"},{"start":136.898,"end":164.859,"text":"109年的5月15號槍炮彈藥刀戒管制條例的第20條第三項高精素美我鄭天才委員還有其他原住民立委在現場拒以力爭力爭什麼我們希望槍炮彈藥刀戒管制條例的第20條第三項裡面納入國防部因此國防部進來了您看到條文了沒有有的好"},{"start":166.084,"end":178.552,"text":"因為有了第20條第3項的規定因此才會有了原住民自治漁槍獵槍許可跟管理辦法草案這個草案您看過了嗎這草案我看過了是您看過了 您的責任是什麼"},{"start":185.413,"end":211.959,"text":"我想應該主要是安全的問題不是我念給您聽第一條本辦法依槍砲彈藥刀藉管制條例以下簡稱本條例第20條第三項規定並定之這是第一條開宗明義第二條本辦法所定的事項由中央主管機關中央援助民族主管機關以及國防部就其權責範圍主動"},{"start":216.221,"end":235.194,"text":"規劃推動執行以及監督相關措施並且應該全力配合確實保障原住民的安全從事合法狩獵活動全責如下第一"},{"start":235.914,"end":244.666,"text":"中央主管機關,也就是警政署,負責管理政策、法規還有方案的研究、規劃、訂定、執行還有解釋,並且他要統籌輔導相關申請事宜"},{"start":253.678,"end":275.137,"text":"第二国防部你要负责援助民自制猎枪主要组成临界的研制选购辅导组合包括组装并且你要协助相关安全使用训练事宜"},{"start":276.465,"end":299.147,"text":"中央原民會做什麼呢?他要負責原住民自製獵槍安全使用訓練規劃定定計劃與執行並且協助相關申請跟管理事宜請問一下原民會的這個今天出席的代表處長原住民在這個法規沒有產生之前我們有沒有自製獵槍了?"},{"start":304.398,"end":323.318,"text":"這個自治列腔是不是現在都依法可以申請現在唯一的問題就是在於原住民在做這些零組建組合的時候都是依照祖先傳承下來的智慧他並沒有一個所謂的"},{"start":325.46,"end":341.915,"text":"軍人所謂的這個國防部裡面的體系我們稱聯勤兵工來協助我們因此非常多這個暴然後以及傷到自己或生命的安全的作為對不對所以因此國防部請您來請您告訴我"},{"start":350.289,"end":373.591,"text":"這個管理辦法裡面有講到您必須要研製就是你不是只有可是我在你的管理辦法草案裡面國防部除了第二條的第二項有講你的權責裡面全部都沒有國防部你在裡面是沒有角色的你好像對這件事情已經不在法規裡頭了"},{"start":375.493,"end":399.464,"text":"所以本席今天要求國防部也要求行政院因為我知道這個條例這個條例新增是依照111年的5月3號行政院有召開業務分工的會議核定這個辦法的業務的分工原則是行政院喔你們居然不管行政院告訴你必須要研發研製"},{"start":401.445,"end":405.126,"text":"然後你就一直告訴族人說我們必須要第一個是你現在合法的獵槍你可以擁有但是你必須兩年以後你就不可以再自治了然後警政署這個管理辦法一直告訴我們說我們要進口獵槍然後這個獵槍是大概是我們的價錢是一萬五到四萬"},{"start":426.252,"end":431.214,"text":"然後不僅僅這樣 他還有什麼呢 他還有請領執照的費用還有什麼呢 要指定集體保管 然後又個別保管集體保管又幹嘛呢 集體保管又要找一個有符合安全規範的水泥房再請問一下園民會的處長 園居民地區有那麼多合法的水泥的庫房可以來集中保管我們的槍支嗎"},{"start":456.382,"end":458.869,"text":"最了解目前應該是沒有啊所以嘛"},{"start":460.407,"end":481.718,"text":"我們有沒有看到我們的政府在制定法令的時候根本沒有依照法令的精神來制定規範你們就用你們自己的想像根本也是找不到一個合法的土地然後大家還非常的辛苦辦理了八場的地方的座談會本席也參加了裡面談一些小細節的問題大方向的問題都不去討論我覺得我們的政府是這樣子做事情的嗎"},{"start":488.462,"end":499.666,"text":"我們的政府是這樣子的來這個來推卸責任然後來告訴原住民族什麼叫做獵人什麼叫做尊重文化嗎什麼叫做轉型正義嗎不可以這樣欺負原住民的所以在這裡本席要針對三個部會第一警政署第二國防部第三人民會請你們重新再討論這個管理辦法"},{"start":515.512,"end":536.151,"text":"依照111年5月3号行政院召开的业务分工会议核定的办法的业务有三个全责你请你们分别回去制定你们自己应该做什么业务分工不是只有唯一的条路就是从外面进口"},{"start":536.852,"end":558.862,"text":"我發現如果從外面進口你們好像又要製造另外一條路讓有錢的可以拿到執照的這些人他又繼續有錢又要圖利某些人我覺得民進黨政府不可以再這樣子用原住民的獵人的安全來再罔顧原住民獵人的生命財產"},{"start":560.729,"end":576.603,"text":"以上我的質詢時間到了我希望你們這三個單位在選舉之前到我的辦公室裡面來回答我今天的質詢因為時間不夠除非組長你要再回答國防部你要回答 人民會你要回答要回答嗎"},{"start":580.878,"end":597.096,"text":"謝謝委員 那剛剛委員的要求我們會找時間跟委員這邊做報告什麼時候看委員的時間好 歡迎你們在選舉之前因為選舉之前我必須在這邊告訴我的族人不要再被某些人騙了"},{"start":598.377,"end":619.484,"text":"告訴你說漁民原住民的自製獵槍漁槍我們已經有管理辦法了但是這個管理辦法卻不是依照槍砲彈藥管制條例的第20條裡面的規範國防部必須要負起責任而國防部根本在這裡面沒有角色選擇之前讓我的獵人的族人都知道好嗎國防部請你們擔起角色請人民會也好好的監督他們謝謝"}]}}}}