{"id":148957,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148957","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029705b4570c9deca22bdc0b11ed89c5ff9c986728e607a03228773759d3bad123a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:41:57 - 10:54:32","影片長度":"00:12:35","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open Banking）政策之回顧與展望（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院民進黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案。\n【12月11日及13日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-10-8-20-20"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":755,"end_time":"2023-12-11T10:54:32+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T10:41:57+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":575,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時41分）謝謝召委。主席、在場委員先進、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士、先生。有請黃主委。"],["主席：請黃主委上台備詢。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員早。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委早。剛剛有委員問到詐騙的問題，我先問幾個問題，治安有沒有改善要看哪三個方面？第一個是犯罪率，第二個是報案率，第三個是破案率，你覺得治安有沒有改善要先看哪一個比率？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我不是犯罪專家，我不太……"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是常識嘛，民眾覺得治安有沒有改善，我們要看哪些數字？犯罪率有沒有上升對不對？可是犯罪率是來自什麼？就是民眾有報案，所以警方就有報案率嘛，但是有沒有破案？如果有破案了，那麼歹徒就不敢妄為，所以犯罪率就會下降，是不是這樣子？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有人說過一個笑話，說有人是在解決問題，有人則是在解決提出問題的人。過去我曾經在地方擔任副首長，每個月都要主持治安會報，我都會要求不能只看報案率，因為如果只看報案率，他們解決的是報案的人，就是吃案嘛，對不對？破案率如果沒有提高，民眾還是會覺得治安不好，是不是這樣子？所以我們要改善治安，不只要看報案率，報案率提高不見得是壞事，另外還要看破案率有沒有提高，如果我們一味的要求犯罪率要下降，可能你得到的只是報案率下降而已，主委同不同意？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是有這種可能啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們來看一下銀行臨櫃有效阻詐，而且件數成長非常多，這是代表詐騙猖獗還是代表我們防堵有效？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我的觀點覺得我們的銀行防堵上有發揮效益。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但民眾還是感覺到詐騙好像很多。我們來看一下，金融詐騙的境內犯罪率，我們積極破案，就是臨櫃防堵嘛，但是境外有沒有辦法防堵？目前境內犯罪大概都是透過臨櫃就攔下來了，對不對？所以目前的詐騙是不是大部分都境外犯罪？是不是這樣？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我的瞭解是境外來源比較多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以目前我們只在國內的臨櫃阻詐是有幫助，但是我們還要加強對於境外犯罪的防堵，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。那我們來看一下詐騙的問題，上週我問過上海銀行，一萬四千個客戶個資外洩，有查出來是誰做的嗎？路徑找出來了嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我請局長說明一下。"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，其實他們內部做了很詳盡的查核，目前他們還透過第三方，所以……"],["鍾委員佳濱：透過第三方，好，key word找到了。","主委，我上週才對公股行庫要求要去加強做這些資安敏感職務人員的訓練和考核，根據金融控股公司及銀行業內部控制及稽核制度實施辦法第三十八條之一，有沒有？有！只要是銀行業，不管你是不是公股行庫，你都要設置專責人員，而且要受訓，有沒有？有嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以我請你比照我對財政部要求公股行庫的作法，你可不可以要求本國銀行統整出哪些是資安敏感的職務，而且要加強對他們的資安審查跟教育，可不可以？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們可以朝這個方向去努力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以你承諾要做這個事情，因為公股行庫已經答應了。"],["黃主任委員天牧：但是敏感職位可能依不同銀行而有差別。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是你們要去統整啊！要提報來審查，好不好？可以嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們不太方便，是他們會提出來……"],["鍾委員佳濱：他們提報，你們要求他要做這個事情。"],["黃主任委員天牧：對，但是審查我們不太容易從……我們不是經營銀行的人。"],["鍾委員佳濱：至少你可以要求他要落實。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們可以做這件事情。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們可以做這件事情，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要落實對於敏感職務的盤點跟人員的審查和訓練、講習，可以嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，另外我們來看一下，醫指付 app 盜刷，誰該負責？是金管會還是衛福部？還是我們的數發部？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個我後來瞭解，個資部分應該屬於衛福部這邊處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：金管會有沒有責任？有沒有採取行動？"],["黃主任委員天牧：財金公司有要求大洸公司去確認當初是因為委外的關係而產生個資的外洩。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以要聯合各部會，不是推給別人，你可以做的就做，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，我們都同時在做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：醫指付有沒有釐清個資外洩來源跟途徑呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：應該有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，有喔？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有在查。對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：待查啦！我跟你講，幾個參考，請往下看，其實在我們國家對於關鍵基礎設施的保護，從設施部分有這些法律，如果設施要保護，包括什麼？資通系統，對不對？用這個案子來往下看，其實行政院除了對於硬體之外，對於人員的審查也很重要，行政院有規定要求所有政府採購，對於大陸廠牌的資通安全系統之外，機關還要去要求執行團隊不可以有中國籍的人士，是不是這樣？有沒有看到行政院這個函？這是要求公務採購、政府採購的部分。"],["黃主任委員天牧：有看到大陸廠牌資訊的一些規定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你可不可以要求本國銀行也比照辦理？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個如果是公股比較可以……"],["鍾委員佳濱：公股的話，因為是財政部的，財政部沒問題。"],["黃主任委員天牧：其他銀行部分，我們要瞭解……"],["鍾委員佳濱：本國銀行，你們要要求，好不好？不是只有所謂的政府採購，本國銀行的資安是連通的，不會分你是公股行庫或不是公股行庫，他只要一個地方攻破，通通都進來了。主委可不可以要求考慮？"],["黃主任委員天牧：局長有沒有什麼想法？"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，公銀的部分確實是比照辦理，至於其他……"],["鍾委員佳濱：本國銀行的部分。"],["莊局長琇媛：本國銀行的部分的話……"],["鍾委員佳濱：金融網是連通的。"],["莊局長琇媛：對，我們會再研議，因為之前是要將……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們要往這個方向去要求，可以嗎？"],["莊局長琇媛：好，是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委承諾？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們先瞭解一下其他非公股銀行使用大陸廠牌資訊產品的情況。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，這是一個起點，請要求它、瞭解它用了多少。"],["黃主任委員天牧：然後再瞭解它怎麼去管控。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，很好，先瞭解它用了哪些、怎麼管控。","再來，有關開放銀行第三階段有這些服務，TSP業者找人開發 app，然後有這麼多的服務，現在的第三方服務要提供損害賠償責任，根據銀行公會會員銀行與第三方服務提供者合作之自律規範第六條第九項規定，第三方應負責損害賠償，對不對？是不是這樣？同不同意？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，依照這個規範是這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以第三方也跟銀行一樣，中國的軟硬體在韓國造成了這些敏感個資外洩，華為也在臺灣有類似的情況，所以希望未來對這些 TSP業者也比照我們的政府採購一樣，不只是政府要落實，也請TSP業者參考我們工程會第八條第二十四款，可以嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個就是我剛剛跟您報告的，比方說非公股，我們先盤點這些TSP業者有沒有使用大陸的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，也一樣，第一步先跨出去，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：另外我們來關心綠色行動3.0，這個3.0的報告當中，你們的核心策略是要揭露碳排資訊，從投融資推動整體產業減碳，是不是這樣子？金管會有在這樣做嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這是其中之一啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，好，我們來看一下銀行在建商端的土建融及消費端購買綠建築的房屋貸款，都有給予比較優惠的條件，有沒有？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個在銀行公會授信審查準則第二十條好像有類似對這種的規定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都有嘛！實質抗衡的成效可不可以告訴我，本國銀行在民間綠建築融資的推廣成效如何？核定多少件？"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，我們調查之後跟您報告。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。你們還沒有做調查，我告訴你，這是我從內政部得到的資料，在2022跟2023比較，我們所有的公建、商辦、住宅核發建照數量有這麼多，綠住宅有這些，大概民間的綠建築比例偏低，就是說我們國家在推，但是民間綠建築通過的有2%到3.2%。如果我們把公建跟商辦拿掉只看純住宅，純住宅稍微好一點，但是住宅的綠建築比例也是不高，所以我們來看一下，到底我們金管會提供的綠色行動有沒有幫助市場上的住宅消費者或建商願意來興辦綠建築？您覺得有沒有實際上推動的效果？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我認為是有，但是可能不如您的期待。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有，還沒調查出來，有沒有符合我的期待還不知道，我們來看一下，其實我去調查的結果是非都更案通常不會選擇綠建築，為什麼？因為我們注意到在內政部公布的資料當中，如果你是都更案就有綠建築的容積率獎勵，因為容積率獎勵之後，它的利潤大於綠建築增加的成本，所以幾乎我們看到的營建案，內政部的資料通通集中在都更案，他們才會去做綠建築，但是如果是非都更案呢？沒有！所以我也注意到，你回去查一查本國銀行去推動的綠建築融資有沒有非都更案？回去查一查再跟我報告。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我認為，我查的是沒有啦！所以問題在哪裡？今天綠建築的推動屬於容積獎勵的有效，但是如果是屬於你們要提出融資優惠的，好像沒有讓建商改變它的想法。我們往下看，因為我們目前的都更案，大部分的建商是因為獎勵容積選擇綠建築，而不是融資優惠，因為我們目前提供的融資優惠小於綠建築增加的營建成本，建商沒有意願。所以我可以先做這樣的定論，目前的綠色建築行動方案的融資優惠其實吸引不了建商去做綠建築，你再回去看看有沒有什麼資料可以反證我的話。","接下來我的結論就出來了，根據銀級綠建築的案例，內政部建築研究所的評析，銀級綠建築大概每平方公尺增加600元至900元的成本，樓地板面積如果是以1萬3,000米來講，營建成本大概是780萬。我舉這個例子，事實上目前我們建融動撥的方式、土融放款金額要達到讓建商覺得它要來做綠建築，你的土建融要調降0.8%，反而非都更建案所減少的土建融利息支出才會小於它去做綠建築增加的成本。簡單講，結論來了，金管會可不可以擬具體方案來積極推廣綠建築？包含目前你們對投融資的獎勵，去調查一下，可以嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：可以，我們照這個方向去努力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，其他三個我很快講一遍，請金管會統整出敏感職務加強資安審查及教育，OK？"],["黃主任委員天牧：就是我剛剛跟您報告的方向。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，國銀及所屬合作券商和保險公司、其執行團隊成員只要是非本國籍或同時擁有其他國籍人士，以及資通訊產品皆應加強資安及背景審查，是不是往這方向去努力？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，因為有其他國籍，不要讓其他國籍……"],["鍾委員佳濱：瞭解，我沒有禁止，我要你們去加強進行瞭解跟審查。"],["黃主任委員天牧：就是不要歧視……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們沒有歧視，只要求你去掌握，可以嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們就是用事實為基礎去瞭解……"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後，金管會要求開放銀行TSP業者之資通訊軟體、硬體或服務，也應該要求他的執行團隊不得為中國籍人士，而且不得使用來自中國的資通訊產品。"],["黃主任委員天牧：跟您報告，我們先瞭解它的產品跟人的背景……"],["鍾委員佳濱：在多久內提出來送到本委員會？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這樣可能時間長一點，三個月，可以嗎？"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，同意，就請召委這邊來要求，謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，謝謝委員指導。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝主委、謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員，我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時54分）","繼續開會（11時1分）"],["主席：我們要繼續開會了，現在請媒體跟與會成員，大家回座。","接下來，我們請高嘉瑜高委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-20-20","speakers":["沈發惠","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李貴敏","郭國文","費鴻泰","鍾佳濱","高嘉瑜","陳椒華","林楚茵","羅明才"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open 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110.28, \"end\": 133.28, \"text\": \"我的觀點覺得我們的銀行防堵上有發揮效益但是民眾可能還是感覺到說好像詐騙很多嘛來我們來看一下金融詐騙我們的境內犯罪率如果我們積極破案就是臨櫃防堵嘛但是境外呢有沒有辦法防堵目前目前我們境內的大概都會透過臨櫃就攔下來了對不對所以目前的詐騙是不是大部分都境外犯罪\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 110.28, \"end\": 110.88, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 110.88, \"end\": 111.28, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"觀\"}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 111.28, \"end\": 111.401, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 111.401, \"end\": 111.641, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 111.641, \"end\": 111.921, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"銀\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 111.921, \"end\": 112.522, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"防\", \"start\": 112.522, \"end\": 112.762, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"堵\", \"start\": 112.762, \"end\": 112.942, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 112.942, \"end\": 113.162, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 113.162, \"end\": 113.663, 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\"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 543.446, \"end\": 543.606, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 543.606, \"end\": 544.006, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 544.006, \"end\": 544.186, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 544.186, \"end\": 544.426, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 544.426, \"end\": 544.506, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"選\"}, {\"word\": \"擇\"}, {\"word\": \"綠\"}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 544.506, \"end\": 544.626, \"score\": 0.703}, {\"word\": \"築\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 544.626, \"end\": 544.646, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}]}, {\"start\": 546.889, \"end\": 570.052, \"text\": \"因為我們注意到在內政部公布的資料當中如果你是都更案他就有綠建築的容積率獎勵那因為容積率獎勵之後他利潤大於綠建築增加的成本所以幾乎我們看到的營建內政部的資料通通集中在什麼都更案他們才會去做綠建築但是如果非都更案的話沒有\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 546.889, \"end\": 547.349, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 547.349, \"end\": 547.61, 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\"果\", \"start\": 550.272, \"end\": 550.372, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 550.372, \"end\": 550.493, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 550.493, \"end\": 550.673, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 550.673, \"end\": 550.813, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 550.813, \"end\": 550.933, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 550.933, \"end\": 551.754, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 551.754, \"end\": 551.894, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 551.894, \"end\": 551.954, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 551.954, \"end\": 552.274, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"綠\"}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 552.274, \"end\": 552.575, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"築\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 552.575, \"end\": 552.815, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"容\", \"start\": 552.815, \"end\": 553.175, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"積\"}, {\"word\": \"率\", \"start\": 553.175, \"end\": 554.196, 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{\"word\": \"築\"}, {\"word\": \"增\", \"start\": 557.399, \"end\": 557.519, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 557.519, \"end\": 557.64, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 557.64, \"end\": 557.74, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 557.74, \"end\": 557.96, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 557.96, \"end\": 558.52, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 558.52, \"end\": 558.701, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 558.701, \"end\": 559.221, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"幾\"}, {\"word\": \"乎\", \"start\": 559.221, \"end\": 559.361, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 559.361, \"end\": 559.561, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 559.561, \"end\": 559.722, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 559.722, \"end\": 559.902, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 559.902, \"end\": 561.103, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"營\"}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 561.103, \"end\": 562.845, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 562.845, \"end\": 563.005, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 563.005, \"end\": 563.105, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 563.105, \"end\": 563.365, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 563.365, \"end\": 563.785, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 563.785, \"end\": 564.086, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 564.086, \"end\": 564.306, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"集\", \"start\": 564.306, \"end\": 564.426, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 564.426, \"end\": 564.566, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 564.566, \"end\": 564.686, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 564.686, \"end\": 565.407, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 565.407, \"end\": 565.607, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 565.607, \"end\": 565.767, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 565.767, \"end\": 566.168, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 566.168, \"end\": 566.388, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 566.388, \"end\": 566.528, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 566.528, \"end\": 566.648, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 566.648, \"end\": 566.909, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"綠\"}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 566.909, \"end\": 567.669, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"築\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 567.669, \"end\": 567.789, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 567.789, \"end\": 567.829, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 567.829, \"end\": 567.89, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 567.89, \"end\": 568.13, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 568.13, \"end\": 568.37, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 568.37, \"end\": 568.55, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 568.55, \"end\": 568.67, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 568.67, \"end\": 568.83, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 568.83, \"end\": 569.871, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 569.871, \"end\": 570.032, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 570.032, \"end\": 570.052, \"score\": 0.956}]}, {\"start\": 570.922, \"end\": 595.896, \"text\": \"所以我也去注意到你回去查一查你們本國銀行去推動的綠建築的融資有沒有非督更案回去再來查一查跟我報告所以我認為我查的是沒有啦所以問題在哪裡今天綠建築的推動屬於融資獎勵的還有有效但是如果是屬於融資優惠的你們現在提出的好像沒有讓建商改變他的想法我們往下看\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 570.922, \"end\": 571.002, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 571.002, \"end\": 571.062, \"score\": 0.643}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 571.062, \"end\": 571.142, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 571.142, \"end\": 571.182, \"score\": 0.498}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 571.182, \"end\": 571.322, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"注\", \"start\": 571.322, \"end\": 571.482, \"score\": 0.87}, 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\"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 742.643, \"end\": 742.803, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 742.803, \"end\": 742.823, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"鐘\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,989 --> 00:00:29,634\n請黃主委上台備選謝謝委員長主委長剛剛有委員問到這個詐騙的問題我先問幾個治安有沒有改善要看哪三個第一個是犯罪率第二個是報案率第三個是破案率治安有沒有改善你覺得要先看哪一個率\n\n2\n00:00:31,961 --> 00:01:00,204\n這個我不是犯罪專家這個一嘗試嘛民眾覺得自然有沒有改善我們要看哪些數字犯罪率有沒有上升對不對可是犯罪率是來自什麼民眾要有報案嘛所以警方就有所謂叫報案率嘛但是呢有沒有破案如果破案了那麼歹徒就不敢妄為所以犯案率就會下降是不是這樣子是所以有人說一個笑話有人是在解決問題啊有人在解決提出問題的人\n\n3\n00:01:01,585 --> 00:01:28,819\n所以過去呢我曾經在地方擔任副首長每個月都組成治安會報我都會只要求不能只看什麼報案率因為如果你看報案率他們解決報案的人啊吃案嘛對不對結果呢破案率如果沒有提高民眾還是覺得治安不好嘛是不是這樣子所以我們要改善治安不只要看報案率報案率提高不見得是壞事要看破案率有沒有提高如果我們一味的要求\n\n4\n00:01:30,049 --> 00:01:47,521\n犯罪率要下降可能你得到的只是報案率下降而已主委同不同意是有這種可能的好那我們來看一下零貴銀行零貴有效阻詐而且呢建築非常成長這代表詐騙唱絕呢還是代表我們防堵有效\n\n5\n00:01:50,280 --> 00:02:13,280\n我的觀點覺得我們的銀行防堵上有發揮效益但是民眾可能還是感覺到說好像詐騙很多嘛來我們來看一下金融詐騙我們的境內犯罪率如果我們積極破案就是臨櫃防堵嘛但是境外呢有沒有辦法防堵目前目前我們境內的大概都會透過臨櫃就攔下來了對不對所以目前的詐騙是不是大部分都境外犯罪\n\n6\n00:02:15,721 --> 00:02:41,073\n我們的了解是境外來源比較多所以我們目前只在國內的臨櫃主詐是有幫助但是我們還要加強對於境外犯罪的防堵好不好是好謝謝那我們來看一下詐騙的問題來上海銀行我之前上次問過了一萬四千個客戶各自外洩有查出來是誰做的嗎路徑找出來了嗎這個局裡面說一下有沒有趕快時間\n\n7\n00:02:42,697 --> 00:02:57,149\n報告委員他們其實內部做了很詳盡的查核啦那目前他們還透過第三方所以其實透過第三方好Keyword找到了來主委是這樣齁我上週才對宮古航空要求啊\n\n8\n00:02:58,391 --> 00:03:15,890\n那麼要去加強做這些治安敏感職務人員的訓練跟考核根據金融庫公司及銀行業內部控制及集合制度的實施辦法第38條之一有沒有有只要是銀行業不管你是不是公股行庫你都要設置專職人員而且要奏訊是不是有沒有\n\n9\n00:03:16,511 --> 00:03:44,899\n是有啦有啦好所以我請你比照我對財政部要求公務航空的做法你可不可以要求國營本國銀行統整出敏感職務哪些是跟治安敏感職務而且加強跟我們治安審查跟教育可不可以這個我們可以朝這個方向去努力好所以你承諾要做這個事情因為公務航空已經答應了但他必須但是敏感職位可能是一不同銀行而有差別但是你們要去統整啊提報啊來審查好不好可以嗎\n\n10\n00:03:46,431 --> 00:04:09,800\n我們不太方便只是他們會提報你們要求他就要做這個事情對但是審查我們不太容易從我們不是基於至少你可以要求他要落實對不對我們可以做這件事情好不好是要落實對於敏感植物的盤點跟人員的審查和訓練講習可以嗎可以好那我們來看一下那另外呢一指戶App到雙誰該負責是\n\n11\n00:04:12,403 --> 00:04:16,628\n金管會還是衛福部還是我們的抒發部\n\n12\n00:04:18,823 --> 00:04:43,762\n這個後來了解各自部份應該屬於衛福部這邊在那金管會有沒有責任有沒有採取行動我們財經公司有跟大光公司要求他去確認他委外當初是因為委外的關係而產生各自的外洩所以要聯合各部會不是推給別人就是你可以做的就做對不對有的同時在做的那醫子會有沒有釐清各自外洩的來源跟途徑呢應該有好\n\n13\n00:04:46,465 --> 00:04:48,067\n其實在我們國家對於關鍵基礎設施的保護從設施部分有這個法律\n\n14\n00:04:56,857 --> 00:05:17,572\n那如果這個設施要保護包括什麼知通系統對不對那用這個案子來往下看其實行政院除了對於硬體之外它對於人員的審查也很重要它有規定行政院要求所有政府採購對於大陸的廠牌的知通安全系統之外機關要去要求執行的團隊不可以有中國籍的人士是不是這樣\n\n15\n00:05:18,453 --> 00:05:27,023\n有沒有看到行政院這個函這是要求公務採購的部分嘛政府採購的部分嘛那你可不可以要求本國銀行也比照辦理\n\n16\n00:05:29,090 --> 00:05:51,478\n這個如果是公股比較可以公股要用財政部的財政部沒問題其他銀行部分我們要其他要了解你們要要求好不好不是只有所有的政府採購本國銀行的資安是連通的不過分你是公股行股還是不是公股行股他在一個地方攻破通通都進來了主委可不可以要求考慮這個局長有沒有什麼想法\n\n17\n00:05:53,237 --> 00:06:09,092\n報告委員確實是那個公營的部分確實是比較辦理的那至於其他本國銀行的部分本國銀行的部分的話金融網絡是連通的啊對我們會再研議因為之前是要我們要往這個方向去要求啊\n\n18\n00:06:11,433 --> 00:06:31,959\n我們先了解一下其他非公股銀行使用大陸廠牌資訊產品的情況很好,這是一個起點,先要求他了解他用了多少然後再要求他了解他怎麼去管控先了解他用了哪些,怎麼管控,往下來,我們看第三階段,有這些服務TSP業者他找了開發APP,然後有這麼多的服務,往下看\n\n19\n00:06:32,719 --> 00:06:43,049\n那現在第三方服務要提供損害賠償責任根據我們銀行公會會員銀行以及第三方服務提供者的合作自律規範第六條第九項第三方有負責損害賠償對不對\n\n20\n00:06:45,666 --> 00:07:07,733\n是不是這樣同不同意所以第三方也跟銀行一樣我們往下看希望你們看一看中國的軟硬體在韓國造成了這些敏感個資外洩華為也在台灣有類似的情況所以往下看所以希望未來對這些TSP的業者也比照我們的\n\n21\n00:07:08,613 --> 00:07:34,521\n政府採購一樣不只是政府要落實也請TSP業者參考我們工程會第八條第四款可以嗎這個就我剛剛跟您報告比方說非公股我們先盤點這些TSP業者有沒有好也一樣第一步先掏出去好不好好謝謝那我們往下看謝謝那另外呢我要再關心綠色行動3.0這個3.0的報告當中你們核心策略要接入碳排的資訊投融資去推動整體產業的減碳是不是這樣子\n\n22\n00:07:37,222 --> 00:08:01,736\n金管官有在這樣做嗎?這是其中之一好,那我們來看一下銀行在建商端的土建籠還有消費端購買綠建築的房屋貸款都有給予比較優惠的一個條件嗎?有沒有?這個在銀行公費授信審查準的第20條好像有類似對這種規定那實質看法的成效可不可以告訴我本國銀行在民間綠建築的融資推廣成效如果核電多少件?\n\n23\n00:08:02,509 --> 00:08:20,537\n我們調查之後跟您報告好你們還沒有做調查來我告訴你這是我從內政部得到的資料在2022跟2023比較我們所有的公建、商辦、住宅、合發建造數量有這麼多那麼綠住宅有這些大概比例民間的綠建築比例偏低\n\n24\n00:08:21,721 --> 00:08:37,456\n就是說我們國家在推但是民間的綠建築通過的2%到3.2%好如果我們把公建跟商販拿掉只看純住宅往下看純住宅稍微好一點但是住宅的綠建築比例也是不高\n\n25\n00:08:38,357 --> 00:09:04,646\n所以我們來看一下到底我們金管會提供的這個綠色行動有沒有幫助市場上的住宅消費者或建商願意來興辦綠建築您覺得有沒有實際上的推動的效果我認為是有但是可能不如您的期待沒有還沒調查出來可能有沒有我的符合還不知道我們來看一下其實我去調查的結果呢非督跟案通常不會選擇綠建築為什麼\n\n26\n00:09:06,889 --> 00:09:30,052\n因為我們注意到在內政部公布的資料當中如果你是都更案他就有綠建築的容積率獎勵那因為容積率獎勵之後他利潤大於綠建築增加的成本所以幾乎我們看到的營建內政部的資料通通集中在什麼都更案他們才會去做綠建築但是如果非都更案的話沒有\n\n27\n00:09:30,922 --> 00:09:55,896\n所以我也去注意到你回去查一查你們本國銀行去推動的綠建築的融資有沒有非督更案回去再來查一查跟我報告所以我認為我查的是沒有啦所以問題在哪裡今天綠建築的推動屬於融資獎勵的還有有效但是如果是屬於融資優惠的你們現在提出的好像沒有讓建商改變他的想法我們往下看\n\n28\n00:09:56,596 --> 00:10:11,686\n因為我們目前的都更案大部分的建商是因為隆基獎勵他選擇了綠建築不是融資的優惠因為我們目前聽說融資優惠小於綠建築增加的營建成本所以建商沒有意願所以我可以做這麼一個\n\n29\n00:10:12,819 --> 00:10:34,465\n先做這樣的定論目前的綠色建築行動方案的融資優惠其實吸引不了現商去做綠建築那你再回去看看有沒有什麼資料可以反證我的話那我接下來結論就出來了根據我們銀集綠建築的案例內政部研究所他大概銀集的綠建築每平方公尺增加600到900那樓地盤面積如果是13000米來講的話營業成本要增加780萬那我舉這個例子\n\n30\n00:10:41,144 --> 00:11:01,012\n事實上目前我們建籠動波的方式它土籠放款的金額要達到讓建商覺得我來做綠建築你的土建籠要調降0.8%那反而非都更的建案呢它所減少土建籠的利息支出小於它去做綠建築得到的獎勵簡單講結論來了往下看\n\n31\n00:11:05,465 --> 00:11:14,233\n是不是金管會可不可以你去具體的方案來積極的推廣立建族包含對你們目前的融資投融資的獎勵去調查一下可以嗎\n\n32\n00:11:15,339 --> 00:11:38,076\n可以有人照這個方向去努力好那我其他三個要很快的講一遍請金管會統整出民管職務加強資安審查及教育OK就剛剛跟您報告的這個方向好那國營及所屬的合作的欠商和保險公司它執行團隊成員只要是非本國籍的或同時擁有其他國籍的它的資通訊的產品都應該加強資安及背景審查是不是往這方向去努力\n\n33\n00:11:38,556 --> 00:12:06,832\n報告員這個因為有其他國籍不要讓其他國籍我了解我沒有禁止我要你們去加強的去進行了解跟審查就是不要歧視我們沒有歧視只要求你去掌握可以嗎我們就是用事實為基礎去了解最後金管會要求開放銀行的TSP業者的通訊軟體硬體的服務也應該要求他的執行團隊是不是是中國籍人士而且不得使用來自中國的直通產品\n\n34\n00:12:07,532 --> 00:12:22,823\n這就跟您報告,我們先了解他的產品跟他的人的背景好,那請在多久內提出來我們分會這樣可能時間長一點,三個月可以嗎好,同意,那就請召委這邊來要求,謝謝謝謝委員,謝謝主委,謝謝召委好,謝謝鍾委員,我們現在休息五分鐘\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1989\t29634\t請黃主委上台備選謝謝委員長主委長剛剛有委員問到這個詐騙的問題我先問幾個治安有沒有改善要看哪三個第一個是犯罪率第二個是報案率第三個是破案率治安有沒有改善你覺得要先看哪一個率\n31961\t60204\t這個我不是犯罪專家這個一嘗試嘛民眾覺得自然有沒有改善我們要看哪些數字犯罪率有沒有上升對不對可是犯罪率是來自什麼民眾要有報案嘛所以警方就有所謂叫報案率嘛但是呢有沒有破案如果破案了那麼歹徒就不敢妄為所以犯案率就會下降是不是這樣子是所以有人說一個笑話有人是在解決問題啊有人在解決提出問題的人\n61585\t88819\t所以過去呢我曾經在地方擔任副首長每個月都組成治安會報我都會只要求不能只看什麼報案率因為如果你看報案率他們解決報案的人啊吃案嘛對不對結果呢破案率如果沒有提高民眾還是覺得治安不好嘛是不是這樣子所以我們要改善治安不只要看報案率報案率提高不見得是壞事要看破案率有沒有提高如果我們一味的要求\n90049\t107521\t犯罪率要下降可能你得到的只是報案率下降而已主委同不同意是有這種可能的好那我們來看一下零貴銀行零貴有效阻詐而且呢建築非常成長這代表詐騙唱絕呢還是代表我們防堵有效\n110280\t133280\t我的觀點覺得我們的銀行防堵上有發揮效益但是民眾可能還是感覺到說好像詐騙很多嘛來我們來看一下金融詐騙我們的境內犯罪率如果我們積極破案就是臨櫃防堵嘛但是境外呢有沒有辦法防堵目前目前我們境內的大概都會透過臨櫃就攔下來了對不對所以目前的詐騙是不是大部分都境外犯罪\n135721\t161073\t我們的了解是境外來源比較多所以我們目前只在國內的臨櫃主詐是有幫助但是我們還要加強對於境外犯罪的防堵好不好是好謝謝那我們來看一下詐騙的問題來上海銀行我之前上次問過了一萬四千個客戶各自外洩有查出來是誰做的嗎路徑找出來了嗎這個局裡面說一下有沒有趕快時間\n162697\t177149\t報告委員他們其實內部做了很詳盡的查核啦那目前他們還透過第三方所以其實透過第三方好Keyword找到了來 主委是這樣齁我上週才對宮古航空要求啊\n178391\t195890\t那麼要去加強做這些治安敏感職務人員的訓練跟考核根據金融庫公司及銀行業內部控制及集合制度的實施辦法第38條之一 有沒有 有只要是銀行業 不管你是不是公股行庫你都要設置專職人員 而且要奏訊 是不是 有沒有\n196511\t224899\t是有啦有啦好所以我請你比照我對財政部要求公務航空的做法你可不可以要求國營本國銀行統整出敏感職務哪些是跟治安敏感職務而且加強跟我們治安審查跟教育可不可以這個我們可以朝這個方向去努力好所以你承諾要做這個事情因為公務航空已經答應了但他必須但是敏感職位可能是一不同銀行而有差別但是你們要去統整啊提報啊來審查好不好可以嗎\n226431\t249800\t我們不太方便 只是他們會提報你們要求他就要做這個事情對 但是審查我們不太容易從我們不是基於至少你可以要求他要落實對不對 我們可以做這件事情好不好 是要落實對於敏感植物的盤點跟人員的審查和訓練 講習 可以嗎可以好 那我們來看一下 那另外呢一指戶App到雙誰該負責是\n252403\t256628\t金管會還是衛福部還是我們的抒發部\n258823\t283762\t這個後來了解各自部份應該屬於衛福部這邊在那金管會有沒有責任有沒有採取行動我們財經公司有跟大光公司要求他去確認他委外當初是因為委外的關係而產生各自的外洩所以要聯合各部會不是推給別人就是你可以做的就做對不對有的同時在做的那醫子會有沒有釐清各自外洩的來源跟途徑呢應該有好\n286465\t288067\t其實在我們國家對於關鍵基礎設施的保護從設施部分有這個法律\n296857\t317572\t那如果這個設施要保護 包括什麼 知通系統 對不對那用這個案子來往下看其實行政院除了對於硬體之外 它對於人員的審查也很重要它有規定行政院要求所有政府採購對於大陸的廠牌的知通安全系統之外機關要去要求執行的團隊不可以有中國籍的人士 是不是這樣\n318453\t327023\t有沒有看到行政院這個函這是要求公務採購的部分嘛 政府採購的部分嘛那你可不可以要求本國銀行也比照辦理\n329090\t351478\t這個如果是公股比較可以公股要用財政部的財政部沒問題其他銀行部分我們要其他要了解你們要要求好不好不是只有所有的政府採購本國銀行的資安是連通的不過分你是公股行股還是不是公股行股他在一個地方攻破通通都進來了主委可不可以要求考慮這個局長有沒有什麼想法\n353237\t369092\t報告委員 確實是那個公營的部分確實是比較辦理的那至於其他本國銀行的部分本國銀行的部分的話金融網絡是連通的啊對 我們會再研議因為之前是要我們要往這個方向去要求啊\n371433\t391959\t我們先了解一下其他非公股銀行使用大陸廠牌資訊產品的情況很好,這是一個起點,先要求他了解他用了多少然後再要求他了解他怎麼去管控先了解他用了哪些,怎麼管控,往下來,我們看第三階段,有這些服務TSP業者他找了開發APP,然後有這麼多的服務,往下看\n392719\t403049\t那現在第三方服務要提供損害賠償責任根據我們銀行公會會員銀行以及第三方服務提供者的合作自律規範第六條第九項第三方有負責損害賠償對不對\n405666\t427733\t是不是這樣 同不同意所以第三方也跟銀行一樣我們往下看希望你們看一看中國的軟硬體在韓國造成了這些敏感個資外洩華為也在台灣有類似的情況所以往下看所以希望未來對這些TSP的業者也比照我們的\n428613\t454521\t政府採購一樣不只是政府要落實也請TSP業者參考我們工程會第八條第四款可以嗎這個就我剛剛跟您報告比方說非公股我們先盤點這些TSP業者有沒有好也一樣第一步先掏出去好不好好謝謝那我們往下看謝謝那另外呢我要再關心綠色行動3.0這個3.0的報告當中你們核心策略要接入碳排的資訊投融資去推動整體產業的減碳是不是這樣子\n457222\t481736\t金管官有在這樣做嗎?這是其中之一好,那我們來看一下銀行在建商端的土建籠還有消費端購買綠建築的房屋貸款都有給予比較優惠的一個條件嗎?有沒有?這個在銀行公費授信審查準的第20條好像有類似對這種規定那實質看法的成效可不可以告訴我本國銀行在民間綠建築的融資推廣成效如果核電多少件?\n482509\t500537\t我們調查之後跟您報告好你們還沒有做調查來我告訴你這是我從內政部得到的資料在2022跟2023比較我們所有的公建、商辦、住宅、合發建造數量有這麼多那麼綠住宅有這些大概比例民間的綠建築比例偏低\n501721\t517456\t就是說我們國家在推但是民間的綠建築通過的2%到3.2%好 如果我們把公建跟商販拿掉只看純住宅往下看純住宅稍微好一點但是住宅的綠建築比例也是不高\n518357\t544646\t所以我們來看一下到底我們金管會提供的這個綠色行動有沒有幫助市場上的住宅消費者或建商願意來興辦綠建築您覺得有沒有實際上的推動的效果我認為是有但是可能不如您的期待沒有還沒調查出來可能有沒有我的符合還不知道我們來看一下其實我去調查的結果呢非督跟案通常不會選擇綠建築為什麼\n546889\t570052\t因為我們注意到在內政部公布的資料當中如果你是都更案他就有綠建築的容積率獎勵那因為容積率獎勵之後他利潤大於綠建築增加的成本所以幾乎我們看到的營建內政部的資料通通集中在什麼都更案他們才會去做綠建築但是如果非都更案的話沒有\n570922\t595896\t所以我也去注意到你回去查一查你們本國銀行去推動的綠建築的融資有沒有非督更案回去再來查一查跟我報告所以我認為我查的是沒有啦所以問題在哪裡今天綠建築的推動屬於融資獎勵的還有有效但是如果是屬於融資優惠的你們現在提出的好像沒有讓建商改變他的想法我們往下看\n596596\t611686\t因為我們目前的都更案大部分的建商是因為隆基獎勵他選擇了綠建築不是融資的優惠因為我們目前聽說融資優惠小於綠建築增加的營建成本所以建商沒有意願所以我可以做這麼一個\n612819\t634465\t先做這樣的定論 目前的綠色建築行動方案的融資優惠其實吸引不了現商去做綠建築那你再回去看看有沒有什麼資料 可以反證我的話那我接下來結論就出來了根據我們銀集綠建築的案例 內政部研究所他大概銀集的綠建築 每平方公尺增加600到900那樓地盤面積如果是13000米來講的話 營業成本要增加780萬那我舉這個例子\n641144\t661012\t事實上目前我們建籠動波的方式它土籠放款的金額要達到讓建商覺得我來做綠建築你的土建籠要調降0.8%那反而非都更的建案呢它所減少土建籠的利息支出小於它去做綠建築得到的獎勵簡單講結論來了往下看\n665465\t674233\t是不是金管會可不可以你去具體的方案來積極的推廣立建族包含對你們目前的融資投融資的獎勵去調查一下可以嗎\n675339\t698076\t可以有人照這個方向去努力好 那我其他三個要很快的講一遍請金管會統整出民管職務加強資安審查及教育 OK就剛剛跟您報告的這個方向好 那國營及所屬的合作的欠商和保險公司它執行團隊成員只要是非本國籍的或同時擁有其他國籍的它的資通訊的產品都應該加強資安及背景審查是不是往這方向去努力\n698556\t726832\t報告員這個因為有其他國籍不要讓其他國籍我了解我沒有禁止我要你們去加強的去進行了解跟審查就是不要歧視我們沒有歧視只要求你去掌握可以嗎我們就是用事實為基礎去了解最後金管會要求開放銀行的TSP業者的通訊軟體硬體的服務也應該要求他的執行團隊是不是是中國籍人士而且不得使用來自中國的直通產品\n727532\t742823\t這就跟您報告,我們先了解他的產品跟他的人的背景好,那請在多久內提出來我們分會這樣可能時間長一點,三個月可以嗎好,同意,那就請召委這邊來要求,謝謝謝謝委員,謝謝主委,謝謝召委好,謝謝鍾委員,我們現在休息五分鐘\n","txt":"請黃主委上台備選謝謝委員長主委長剛剛有委員問到這個詐騙的問題我先問幾個治安有沒有改善要看哪三個第一個是犯罪率第二個是報案率第三個是破案率治安有沒有改善你覺得要先看哪一個率\n這個我不是犯罪專家這個一嘗試嘛民眾覺得自然有沒有改善我們要看哪些數字犯罪率有沒有上升對不對可是犯罪率是來自什麼民眾要有報案嘛所以警方就有所謂叫報案率嘛但是呢有沒有破案如果破案了那麼歹徒就不敢妄為所以犯案率就會下降是不是這樣子是所以有人說一個笑話有人是在解決問題啊有人在解決提出問題的人\n所以過去呢我曾經在地方擔任副首長每個月都組成治安會報我都會只要求不能只看什麼報案率因為如果你看報案率他們解決報案的人啊吃案嘛對不對結果呢破案率如果沒有提高民眾還是覺得治安不好嘛是不是這樣子所以我們要改善治安不只要看報案率報案率提高不見得是壞事要看破案率有沒有提高如果我們一味的要求\n犯罪率要下降可能你得到的只是報案率下降而已主委同不同意是有這種可能的好那我們來看一下零貴銀行零貴有效阻詐而且呢建築非常成長這代表詐騙唱絕呢還是代表我們防堵有效\n我的觀點覺得我們的銀行防堵上有發揮效益但是民眾可能還是感覺到說好像詐騙很多嘛來我們來看一下金融詐騙我們的境內犯罪率如果我們積極破案就是臨櫃防堵嘛但是境外呢有沒有辦法防堵目前目前我們境內的大概都會透過臨櫃就攔下來了對不對所以目前的詐騙是不是大部分都境外犯罪\n我們的了解是境外來源比較多所以我們目前只在國內的臨櫃主詐是有幫助但是我們還要加強對於境外犯罪的防堵好不好是好謝謝那我們來看一下詐騙的問題來上海銀行我之前上次問過了一萬四千個客戶各自外洩有查出來是誰做的嗎路徑找出來了嗎這個局裡面說一下有沒有趕快時間\n報告委員他們其實內部做了很詳盡的查核啦那目前他們還透過第三方所以其實透過第三方好Keyword找到了來 主委是這樣齁我上週才對宮古航空要求啊\n那麼要去加強做這些治安敏感職務人員的訓練跟考核根據金融庫公司及銀行業內部控制及集合制度的實施辦法第38條之一 有沒有 有只要是銀行業 不管你是不是公股行庫你都要設置專職人員 而且要奏訊 是不是 有沒有\n是有啦有啦好所以我請你比照我對財政部要求公務航空的做法你可不可以要求國營本國銀行統整出敏感職務哪些是跟治安敏感職務而且加強跟我們治安審查跟教育可不可以這個我們可以朝這個方向去努力好所以你承諾要做這個事情因為公務航空已經答應了但他必須但是敏感職位可能是一不同銀行而有差別但是你們要去統整啊提報啊來審查好不好可以嗎\n我們不太方便 只是他們會提報你們要求他就要做這個事情對 但是審查我們不太容易從我們不是基於至少你可以要求他要落實對不對 我們可以做這件事情好不好 是要落實對於敏感植物的盤點跟人員的審查和訓練 講習 可以嗎可以好 那我們來看一下 那另外呢一指戶App到雙誰該負責是\n金管會還是衛福部還是我們的抒發部\n這個後來了解各自部份應該屬於衛福部這邊在那金管會有沒有責任有沒有採取行動我們財經公司有跟大光公司要求他去確認他委外當初是因為委外的關係而產生各自的外洩所以要聯合各部會不是推給別人就是你可以做的就做對不對有的同時在做的那醫子會有沒有釐清各自外洩的來源跟途徑呢應該有好\n其實在我們國家對於關鍵基礎設施的保護從設施部分有這個法律\n那如果這個設施要保護 包括什麼 知通系統 對不對那用這個案子來往下看其實行政院除了對於硬體之外 它對於人員的審查也很重要它有規定行政院要求所有政府採購對於大陸的廠牌的知通安全系統之外機關要去要求執行的團隊不可以有中國籍的人士 是不是這樣\n有沒有看到行政院這個函這是要求公務採購的部分嘛 政府採購的部分嘛那你可不可以要求本國銀行也比照辦理\n這個如果是公股比較可以公股要用財政部的財政部沒問題其他銀行部分我們要其他要了解你們要要求好不好不是只有所有的政府採購本國銀行的資安是連通的不過分你是公股行股還是不是公股行股他在一個地方攻破通通都進來了主委可不可以要求考慮這個局長有沒有什麼想法\n報告委員 確實是那個公營的部分確實是比較辦理的那至於其他本國銀行的部分本國銀行的部分的話金融網絡是連通的啊對 我們會再研議因為之前是要我們要往這個方向去要求啊\n我們先了解一下其他非公股銀行使用大陸廠牌資訊產品的情況很好,這是一個起點,先要求他了解他用了多少然後再要求他了解他怎麼去管控先了解他用了哪些,怎麼管控,往下來,我們看第三階段,有這些服務TSP業者他找了開發APP,然後有這麼多的服務,往下看\n那現在第三方服務要提供損害賠償責任根據我們銀行公會會員銀行以及第三方服務提供者的合作自律規範第六條第九項第三方有負責損害賠償對不對\n是不是這樣 同不同意所以第三方也跟銀行一樣我們往下看希望你們看一看中國的軟硬體在韓國造成了這些敏感個資外洩華為也在台灣有類似的情況所以往下看所以希望未來對這些TSP的業者也比照我們的\n政府採購一樣不只是政府要落實也請TSP業者參考我們工程會第八條第四款可以嗎這個就我剛剛跟您報告比方說非公股我們先盤點這些TSP業者有沒有好也一樣第一步先掏出去好不好好謝謝那我們往下看謝謝那另外呢我要再關心綠色行動3.0這個3.0的報告當中你們核心策略要接入碳排的資訊投融資去推動整體產業的減碳是不是這樣子\n金管官有在這樣做嗎?這是其中之一好,那我們來看一下銀行在建商端的土建籠還有消費端購買綠建築的房屋貸款都有給予比較優惠的一個條件嗎?有沒有?這個在銀行公費授信審查準的第20條好像有類似對這種規定那實質看法的成效可不可以告訴我本國銀行在民間綠建築的融資推廣成效如果核電多少件?\n我們調查之後跟您報告好你們還沒有做調查來我告訴你這是我從內政部得到的資料在2022跟2023比較我們所有的公建、商辦、住宅、合發建造數量有這麼多那麼綠住宅有這些大概比例民間的綠建築比例偏低\n就是說我們國家在推但是民間的綠建築通過的2%到3.2%好 如果我們把公建跟商販拿掉只看純住宅往下看純住宅稍微好一點但是住宅的綠建築比例也是不高\n所以我們來看一下到底我們金管會提供的這個綠色行動有沒有幫助市場上的住宅消費者或建商願意來興辦綠建築您覺得有沒有實際上的推動的效果我認為是有但是可能不如您的期待沒有還沒調查出來可能有沒有我的符合還不知道我們來看一下其實我去調查的結果呢非督跟案通常不會選擇綠建築為什麼\n因為我們注意到在內政部公布的資料當中如果你是都更案他就有綠建築的容積率獎勵那因為容積率獎勵之後他利潤大於綠建築增加的成本所以幾乎我們看到的營建內政部的資料通通集中在什麼都更案他們才會去做綠建築但是如果非都更案的話沒有\n所以我也去注意到你回去查一查你們本國銀行去推動的綠建築的融資有沒有非督更案回去再來查一查跟我報告所以我認為我查的是沒有啦所以問題在哪裡今天綠建築的推動屬於融資獎勵的還有有效但是如果是屬於融資優惠的你們現在提出的好像沒有讓建商改變他的想法我們往下看\n因為我們目前的都更案大部分的建商是因為隆基獎勵他選擇了綠建築不是融資的優惠因為我們目前聽說融資優惠小於綠建築增加的營建成本所以建商沒有意願所以我可以做這麼一個\n先做這樣的定論 目前的綠色建築行動方案的融資優惠其實吸引不了現商去做綠建築那你再回去看看有沒有什麼資料 可以反證我的話那我接下來結論就出來了根據我們銀集綠建築的案例 內政部研究所他大概銀集的綠建築 每平方公尺增加600到900那樓地盤面積如果是13000米來講的話 營業成本要增加780萬那我舉這個例子\n事實上目前我們建籠動波的方式它土籠放款的金額要達到讓建商覺得我來做綠建築你的土建籠要調降0.8%那反而非都更的建案呢它所減少土建籠的利息支出小於它去做綠建築得到的獎勵簡單講結論來了往下看\n是不是金管會可不可以你去具體的方案來積極的推廣立建族包含對你們目前的融資投融資的獎勵去調查一下可以嗎\n可以有人照這個方向去努力好 那我其他三個要很快的講一遍請金管會統整出民管職務加強資安審查及教育 OK就剛剛跟您報告的這個方向好 那國營及所屬的合作的欠商和保險公司它執行團隊成員只要是非本國籍的或同時擁有其他國籍的它的資通訊的產品都應該加強資安及背景審查是不是往這方向去努力\n報告員這個因為有其他國籍不要讓其他國籍我了解我沒有禁止我要你們去加強的去進行了解跟審查就是不要歧視我們沒有歧視只要求你去掌握可以嗎我們就是用事實為基礎去了解最後金管會要求開放銀行的TSP業者的通訊軟體硬體的服務也應該要求他的執行團隊是不是是中國籍人士而且不得使用來自中國的直通產品\n這就跟您報告,我們先了解他的產品跟他的人的背景好,那請在多久內提出來我們分會這樣可能時間長一點,三個月可以嗎好,同意,那就請召委這邊來要求,謝謝謝謝委員,謝謝主委,謝謝召委好,謝謝鍾委員,我們現在休息五分鐘\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.989 --> 00:29.634\n請黃主委上台備選謝謝委員長主委長剛剛有委員問到這個詐騙的問題我先問幾個治安有沒有改善要看哪三個第一個是犯罪率第二個是報案率第三個是破案率治安有沒有改善你覺得要先看哪一個率\n\n00:31.961 --> 01:00.204\n這個我不是犯罪專家這個一嘗試嘛民眾覺得自然有沒有改善我們要看哪些數字犯罪率有沒有上升對不對可是犯罪率是來自什麼民眾要有報案嘛所以警方就有所謂叫報案率嘛但是呢有沒有破案如果破案了那麼歹徒就不敢妄為所以犯案率就會下降是不是這樣子是所以有人說一個笑話有人是在解決問題啊有人在解決提出問題的人\n\n01:01.585 --> 01:28.819\n所以過去呢我曾經在地方擔任副首長每個月都組成治安會報我都會只要求不能只看什麼報案率因為如果你看報案率他們解決報案的人啊吃案嘛對不對結果呢破案率如果沒有提高民眾還是覺得治安不好嘛是不是這樣子所以我們要改善治安不只要看報案率報案率提高不見得是壞事要看破案率有沒有提高如果我們一味的要求\n\n01:30.049 --> 01:47.521\n犯罪率要下降可能你得到的只是報案率下降而已主委同不同意是有這種可能的好那我們來看一下零貴銀行零貴有效阻詐而且呢建築非常成長這代表詐騙唱絕呢還是代表我們防堵有效\n\n01:50.280 --> 02:13.280\n我的觀點覺得我們的銀行防堵上有發揮效益但是民眾可能還是感覺到說好像詐騙很多嘛來我們來看一下金融詐騙我們的境內犯罪率如果我們積極破案就是臨櫃防堵嘛但是境外呢有沒有辦法防堵目前目前我們境內的大概都會透過臨櫃就攔下來了對不對所以目前的詐騙是不是大部分都境外犯罪\n\n02:15.721 --> 02:41.073\n我們的了解是境外來源比較多所以我們目前只在國內的臨櫃主詐是有幫助但是我們還要加強對於境外犯罪的防堵好不好是好謝謝那我們來看一下詐騙的問題來上海銀行我之前上次問過了一萬四千個客戶各自外洩有查出來是誰做的嗎路徑找出來了嗎這個局裡面說一下有沒有趕快時間\n\n02:42.697 --> 02:57.149\n報告委員他們其實內部做了很詳盡的查核啦那目前他們還透過第三方所以其實透過第三方好Keyword找到了來主委是這樣齁我上週才對宮古航空要求啊\n\n02:58.391 --> 03:15.890\n那麼要去加強做這些治安敏感職務人員的訓練跟考核根據金融庫公司及銀行業內部控制及集合制度的實施辦法第38條之一有沒有有只要是銀行業不管你是不是公股行庫你都要設置專職人員而且要奏訊是不是有沒有\n\n03:16.511 --> 03:44.899\n是有啦有啦好所以我請你比照我對財政部要求公務航空的做法你可不可以要求國營本國銀行統整出敏感職務哪些是跟治安敏感職務而且加強跟我們治安審查跟教育可不可以這個我們可以朝這個方向去努力好所以你承諾要做這個事情因為公務航空已經答應了但他必須但是敏感職位可能是一不同銀行而有差別但是你們要去統整啊提報啊來審查好不好可以嗎\n\n03:46.431 --> 04:09.800\n我們不太方便只是他們會提報你們要求他就要做這個事情對但是審查我們不太容易從我們不是基於至少你可以要求他要落實對不對我們可以做這件事情好不好是要落實對於敏感植物的盤點跟人員的審查和訓練講習可以嗎可以好那我們來看一下那另外呢一指戶App到雙誰該負責是\n\n04:12.403 --> 04:16.628\n金管會還是衛福部還是我們的抒發部\n\n04:18.823 --> 04:43.762\n這個後來了解各自部份應該屬於衛福部這邊在那金管會有沒有責任有沒有採取行動我們財經公司有跟大光公司要求他去確認他委外當初是因為委外的關係而產生各自的外洩所以要聯合各部會不是推給別人就是你可以做的就做對不對有的同時在做的那醫子會有沒有釐清各自外洩的來源跟途徑呢應該有好\n\n04:46.465 --> 04:48.067\n其實在我們國家對於關鍵基礎設施的保護從設施部分有這個法律\n\n04:56.857 --> 05:17.572\n那如果這個設施要保護包括什麼知通系統對不對那用這個案子來往下看其實行政院除了對於硬體之外它對於人員的審查也很重要它有規定行政院要求所有政府採購對於大陸的廠牌的知通安全系統之外機關要去要求執行的團隊不可以有中國籍的人士是不是這樣\n\n05:18.453 --> 05:27.023\n有沒有看到行政院這個函這是要求公務採購的部分嘛政府採購的部分嘛那你可不可以要求本國銀行也比照辦理\n\n05:29.090 --> 05:51.478\n這個如果是公股比較可以公股要用財政部的財政部沒問題其他銀行部分我們要其他要了解你們要要求好不好不是只有所有的政府採購本國銀行的資安是連通的不過分你是公股行股還是不是公股行股他在一個地方攻破通通都進來了主委可不可以要求考慮這個局長有沒有什麼想法\n\n05:53.237 --> 06:09.092\n報告委員確實是那個公營的部分確實是比較辦理的那至於其他本國銀行的部分本國銀行的部分的話金融網絡是連通的啊對我們會再研議因為之前是要我們要往這個方向去要求啊\n\n06:11.433 --> 06:31.959\n我們先了解一下其他非公股銀行使用大陸廠牌資訊產品的情況很好,這是一個起點,先要求他了解他用了多少然後再要求他了解他怎麼去管控先了解他用了哪些,怎麼管控,往下來,我們看第三階段,有這些服務TSP業者他找了開發APP,然後有這麼多的服務,往下看\n\n06:32.719 --> 06:43.049\n那現在第三方服務要提供損害賠償責任根據我們銀行公會會員銀行以及第三方服務提供者的合作自律規範第六條第九項第三方有負責損害賠償對不對\n\n06:45.666 --> 07:07.733\n是不是這樣同不同意所以第三方也跟銀行一樣我們往下看希望你們看一看中國的軟硬體在韓國造成了這些敏感個資外洩華為也在台灣有類似的情況所以往下看所以希望未來對這些TSP的業者也比照我們的\n\n07:08.613 --> 07:34.521\n政府採購一樣不只是政府要落實也請TSP業者參考我們工程會第八條第四款可以嗎這個就我剛剛跟您報告比方說非公股我們先盤點這些TSP業者有沒有好也一樣第一步先掏出去好不好好謝謝那我們往下看謝謝那另外呢我要再關心綠色行動3.0這個3.0的報告當中你們核心策略要接入碳排的資訊投融資去推動整體產業的減碳是不是這樣子\n\n07:37.222 --> 08:01.736\n金管官有在這樣做嗎?這是其中之一好,那我們來看一下銀行在建商端的土建籠還有消費端購買綠建築的房屋貸款都有給予比較優惠的一個條件嗎?有沒有?這個在銀行公費授信審查準的第20條好像有類似對這種規定那實質看法的成效可不可以告訴我本國銀行在民間綠建築的融資推廣成效如果核電多少件?\n\n08:02.509 --> 08:20.537\n我們調查之後跟您報告好你們還沒有做調查來我告訴你這是我從內政部得到的資料在2022跟2023比較我們所有的公建、商辦、住宅、合發建造數量有這麼多那麼綠住宅有這些大概比例民間的綠建築比例偏低\n\n08:21.721 --> 08:37.456\n就是說我們國家在推但是民間的綠建築通過的2%到3.2%好如果我們把公建跟商販拿掉只看純住宅往下看純住宅稍微好一點但是住宅的綠建築比例也是不高\n\n08:38.357 --> 09:04.646\n所以我們來看一下到底我們金管會提供的這個綠色行動有沒有幫助市場上的住宅消費者或建商願意來興辦綠建築您覺得有沒有實際上的推動的效果我認為是有但是可能不如您的期待沒有還沒調查出來可能有沒有我的符合還不知道我們來看一下其實我去調查的結果呢非督跟案通常不會選擇綠建築為什麼\n\n09:06.889 --> 09:30.052\n因為我們注意到在內政部公布的資料當中如果你是都更案他就有綠建築的容積率獎勵那因為容積率獎勵之後他利潤大於綠建築增加的成本所以幾乎我們看到的營建內政部的資料通通集中在什麼都更案他們才會去做綠建築但是如果非都更案的話沒有\n\n09:30.922 --> 09:55.896\n所以我也去注意到你回去查一查你們本國銀行去推動的綠建築的融資有沒有非督更案回去再來查一查跟我報告所以我認為我查的是沒有啦所以問題在哪裡今天綠建築的推動屬於融資獎勵的還有有效但是如果是屬於融資優惠的你們現在提出的好像沒有讓建商改變他的想法我們往下看\n\n09:56.596 --> 10:11.686\n因為我們目前的都更案大部分的建商是因為隆基獎勵他選擇了綠建築不是融資的優惠因為我們目前聽說融資優惠小於綠建築增加的營建成本所以建商沒有意願所以我可以做這麼一個\n\n10:12.819 --> 10:34.465\n先做這樣的定論目前的綠色建築行動方案的融資優惠其實吸引不了現商去做綠建築那你再回去看看有沒有什麼資料可以反證我的話那我接下來結論就出來了根據我們銀集綠建築的案例內政部研究所他大概銀集的綠建築每平方公尺增加600到900那樓地盤面積如果是13000米來講的話營業成本要增加780萬那我舉這個例子\n\n10:41.144 --> 11:01.012\n事實上目前我們建籠動波的方式它土籠放款的金額要達到讓建商覺得我來做綠建築你的土建籠要調降0.8%那反而非都更的建案呢它所減少土建籠的利息支出小於它去做綠建築得到的獎勵簡單講結論來了往下看\n\n11:05.465 --> 11:14.233\n是不是金管會可不可以你去具體的方案來積極的推廣立建族包含對你們目前的融資投融資的獎勵去調查一下可以嗎\n\n11:15.339 --> 11:38.076\n可以有人照這個方向去努力好那我其他三個要很快的講一遍請金管會統整出民管職務加強資安審查及教育OK就剛剛跟您報告的這個方向好那國營及所屬的合作的欠商和保險公司它執行團隊成員只要是非本國籍的或同時擁有其他國籍的它的資通訊的產品都應該加強資安及背景審查是不是往這方向去努力\n\n11:38.556 --> 12:06.832\n報告員這個因為有其他國籍不要讓其他國籍我了解我沒有禁止我要你們去加強的去進行了解跟審查就是不要歧視我們沒有歧視只要求你去掌握可以嗎我們就是用事實為基礎去了解最後金管會要求開放銀行的TSP業者的通訊軟體硬體的服務也應該要求他的執行團隊是不是是中國籍人士而且不得使用來自中國的直通產品\n\n12:07.532 --> 12:22.823\n這就跟您報告,我們先了解他的產品跟他的人的背景好,那請在多久內提出來我們分會這樣可能時間長一點,三個月可以嗎好,同意,那就請召委這邊來要求,謝謝謝謝委員,謝謝主委,謝謝召委好,謝謝鍾委員,我們現在休息五分鐘\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.989,"end":29.634,"text":"請黃主委上台備選謝謝委員長主委長剛剛有委員問到這個詐騙的問題我先問幾個治安有沒有改善要看哪三個第一個是犯罪率第二個是報案率第三個是破案率治安有沒有改善你覺得要先看哪一個率"},{"start":31.961,"end":60.204,"text":"這個我不是犯罪專家這個一嘗試嘛民眾覺得自然有沒有改善我們要看哪些數字犯罪率有沒有上升對不對可是犯罪率是來自什麼民眾要有報案嘛所以警方就有所謂叫報案率嘛但是呢有沒有破案如果破案了那麼歹徒就不敢妄為所以犯案率就會下降是不是這樣子是所以有人說一個笑話有人是在解決問題啊有人在解決提出問題的人"},{"start":61.585,"end":88.819,"text":"所以過去呢我曾經在地方擔任副首長每個月都組成治安會報我都會只要求不能只看什麼報案率因為如果你看報案率他們解決報案的人啊吃案嘛對不對結果呢破案率如果沒有提高民眾還是覺得治安不好嘛是不是這樣子所以我們要改善治安不只要看報案率報案率提高不見得是壞事要看破案率有沒有提高如果我們一味的要求"},{"start":90.049,"end":107.521,"text":"犯罪率要下降可能你得到的只是報案率下降而已主委同不同意是有這種可能的好那我們來看一下零貴銀行零貴有效阻詐而且呢建築非常成長這代表詐騙唱絕呢還是代表我們防堵有效"},{"start":110.28,"end":133.28,"text":"我的觀點覺得我們的銀行防堵上有發揮效益但是民眾可能還是感覺到說好像詐騙很多嘛來我們來看一下金融詐騙我們的境內犯罪率如果我們積極破案就是臨櫃防堵嘛但是境外呢有沒有辦法防堵目前目前我們境內的大概都會透過臨櫃就攔下來了對不對所以目前的詐騙是不是大部分都境外犯罪"},{"start":135.721,"end":161.073,"text":"我們的了解是境外來源比較多所以我們目前只在國內的臨櫃主詐是有幫助但是我們還要加強對於境外犯罪的防堵好不好是好謝謝那我們來看一下詐騙的問題來上海銀行我之前上次問過了一萬四千個客戶各自外洩有查出來是誰做的嗎路徑找出來了嗎這個局裡面說一下有沒有趕快時間"},{"start":162.697,"end":177.149,"text":"報告委員他們其實內部做了很詳盡的查核啦那目前他們還透過第三方所以其實透過第三方好Keyword找到了來 主委是這樣齁我上週才對宮古航空要求啊"},{"start":178.391,"end":195.89,"text":"那麼要去加強做這些治安敏感職務人員的訓練跟考核根據金融庫公司及銀行業內部控制及集合制度的實施辦法第38條之一 有沒有 有只要是銀行業 不管你是不是公股行庫你都要設置專職人員 而且要奏訊 是不是 有沒有"},{"start":196.511,"end":224.899,"text":"是有啦有啦好所以我請你比照我對財政部要求公務航空的做法你可不可以要求國營本國銀行統整出敏感職務哪些是跟治安敏感職務而且加強跟我們治安審查跟教育可不可以這個我們可以朝這個方向去努力好所以你承諾要做這個事情因為公務航空已經答應了但他必須但是敏感職位可能是一不同銀行而有差別但是你們要去統整啊提報啊來審查好不好可以嗎"},{"start":226.431,"end":249.8,"text":"我們不太方便 只是他們會提報你們要求他就要做這個事情對 但是審查我們不太容易從我們不是基於至少你可以要求他要落實對不對 我們可以做這件事情好不好 是要落實對於敏感植物的盤點跟人員的審查和訓練 講習 可以嗎可以好 那我們來看一下 那另外呢一指戶App到雙誰該負責是"},{"start":252.403,"end":256.628,"text":"金管會還是衛福部還是我們的抒發部"},{"start":258.823,"end":283.762,"text":"這個後來了解各自部份應該屬於衛福部這邊在那金管會有沒有責任有沒有採取行動我們財經公司有跟大光公司要求他去確認他委外當初是因為委外的關係而產生各自的外洩所以要聯合各部會不是推給別人就是你可以做的就做對不對有的同時在做的那醫子會有沒有釐清各自外洩的來源跟途徑呢應該有好"},{"start":286.465,"end":288.067,"text":"其實在我們國家對於關鍵基礎設施的保護從設施部分有這個法律"},{"start":296.857,"end":317.572,"text":"那如果這個設施要保護 包括什麼 知通系統 對不對那用這個案子來往下看其實行政院除了對於硬體之外 它對於人員的審查也很重要它有規定行政院要求所有政府採購對於大陸的廠牌的知通安全系統之外機關要去要求執行的團隊不可以有中國籍的人士 是不是這樣"},{"start":318.453,"end":327.023,"text":"有沒有看到行政院這個函這是要求公務採購的部分嘛 政府採購的部分嘛那你可不可以要求本國銀行也比照辦理"},{"start":329.09,"end":351.478,"text":"這個如果是公股比較可以公股要用財政部的財政部沒問題其他銀行部分我們要其他要了解你們要要求好不好不是只有所有的政府採購本國銀行的資安是連通的不過分你是公股行股還是不是公股行股他在一個地方攻破通通都進來了主委可不可以要求考慮這個局長有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":353.237,"end":369.092,"text":"報告委員 確實是那個公營的部分確實是比較辦理的那至於其他本國銀行的部分本國銀行的部分的話金融網絡是連通的啊對 我們會再研議因為之前是要我們要往這個方向去要求啊"},{"start":371.433,"end":391.959,"text":"我們先了解一下其他非公股銀行使用大陸廠牌資訊產品的情況很好,這是一個起點,先要求他了解他用了多少然後再要求他了解他怎麼去管控先了解他用了哪些,怎麼管控,往下來,我們看第三階段,有這些服務TSP業者他找了開發APP,然後有這麼多的服務,往下看"},{"start":392.719,"end":403.049,"text":"那現在第三方服務要提供損害賠償責任根據我們銀行公會會員銀行以及第三方服務提供者的合作自律規範第六條第九項第三方有負責損害賠償對不對"},{"start":405.666,"end":427.733,"text":"是不是這樣 同不同意所以第三方也跟銀行一樣我們往下看希望你們看一看中國的軟硬體在韓國造成了這些敏感個資外洩華為也在台灣有類似的情況所以往下看所以希望未來對這些TSP的業者也比照我們的"},{"start":428.613,"end":454.521,"text":"政府採購一樣不只是政府要落實也請TSP業者參考我們工程會第八條第四款可以嗎這個就我剛剛跟您報告比方說非公股我們先盤點這些TSP業者有沒有好也一樣第一步先掏出去好不好好謝謝那我們往下看謝謝那另外呢我要再關心綠色行動3.0這個3.0的報告當中你們核心策略要接入碳排的資訊投融資去推動整體產業的減碳是不是這樣子"},{"start":457.222,"end":481.736,"text":"金管官有在這樣做嗎?這是其中之一好,那我們來看一下銀行在建商端的土建籠還有消費端購買綠建築的房屋貸款都有給予比較優惠的一個條件嗎?有沒有?這個在銀行公費授信審查準的第20條好像有類似對這種規定那實質看法的成效可不可以告訴我本國銀行在民間綠建築的融資推廣成效如果核電多少件?"},{"start":482.509,"end":500.537,"text":"我們調查之後跟您報告好你們還沒有做調查來我告訴你這是我從內政部得到的資料在2022跟2023比較我們所有的公建、商辦、住宅、合發建造數量有這麼多那麼綠住宅有這些大概比例民間的綠建築比例偏低"},{"start":501.721,"end":517.456,"text":"就是說我們國家在推但是民間的綠建築通過的2%到3.2%好 如果我們把公建跟商販拿掉只看純住宅往下看純住宅稍微好一點但是住宅的綠建築比例也是不高"},{"start":518.357,"end":544.646,"text":"所以我們來看一下到底我們金管會提供的這個綠色行動有沒有幫助市場上的住宅消費者或建商願意來興辦綠建築您覺得有沒有實際上的推動的效果我認為是有但是可能不如您的期待沒有還沒調查出來可能有沒有我的符合還不知道我們來看一下其實我去調查的結果呢非督跟案通常不會選擇綠建築為什麼"},{"start":546.889,"end":570.052,"text":"因為我們注意到在內政部公布的資料當中如果你是都更案他就有綠建築的容積率獎勵那因為容積率獎勵之後他利潤大於綠建築增加的成本所以幾乎我們看到的營建內政部的資料通通集中在什麼都更案他們才會去做綠建築但是如果非都更案的話沒有"},{"start":570.922,"end":595.896,"text":"所以我也去注意到你回去查一查你們本國銀行去推動的綠建築的融資有沒有非督更案回去再來查一查跟我報告所以我認為我查的是沒有啦所以問題在哪裡今天綠建築的推動屬於融資獎勵的還有有效但是如果是屬於融資優惠的你們現在提出的好像沒有讓建商改變他的想法我們往下看"},{"start":596.596,"end":611.686,"text":"因為我們目前的都更案大部分的建商是因為隆基獎勵他選擇了綠建築不是融資的優惠因為我們目前聽說融資優惠小於綠建築增加的營建成本所以建商沒有意願所以我可以做這麼一個"},{"start":612.819,"end":634.465,"text":"先做這樣的定論 目前的綠色建築行動方案的融資優惠其實吸引不了現商去做綠建築那你再回去看看有沒有什麼資料 可以反證我的話那我接下來結論就出來了根據我們銀集綠建築的案例 內政部研究所他大概銀集的綠建築 每平方公尺增加600到900那樓地盤面積如果是13000米來講的話 營業成本要增加780萬那我舉這個例子"},{"start":641.144,"end":661.012,"text":"事實上目前我們建籠動波的方式它土籠放款的金額要達到讓建商覺得我來做綠建築你的土建籠要調降0.8%那反而非都更的建案呢它所減少土建籠的利息支出小於它去做綠建築得到的獎勵簡單講結論來了往下看"},{"start":665.465,"end":674.233,"text":"是不是金管會可不可以你去具體的方案來積極的推廣立建族包含對你們目前的融資投融資的獎勵去調查一下可以嗎"},{"start":675.339,"end":698.076,"text":"可以有人照這個方向去努力好 那我其他三個要很快的講一遍請金管會統整出民管職務加強資安審查及教育 OK就剛剛跟您報告的這個方向好 那國營及所屬的合作的欠商和保險公司它執行團隊成員只要是非本國籍的或同時擁有其他國籍的它的資通訊的產品都應該加強資安及背景審查是不是往這方向去努力"},{"start":698.556,"end":726.832,"text":"報告員這個因為有其他國籍不要讓其他國籍我了解我沒有禁止我要你們去加強的去進行了解跟審查就是不要歧視我們沒有歧視只要求你去掌握可以嗎我們就是用事實為基礎去了解最後金管會要求開放銀行的TSP業者的通訊軟體硬體的服務也應該要求他的執行團隊是不是是中國籍人士而且不得使用來自中國的直通產品"},{"start":727.532,"end":742.823,"text":"這就跟您報告,我們先了解他的產品跟他的人的背景好,那請在多久內提出來我們分會這樣可能時間長一點,三個月可以嗎好,同意,那就請召委這邊來要求,謝謝謝謝委員,謝謝主委,謝謝召委好,謝謝鍾委員,我們現在休息五分鐘"}]}}}}