{"id":148958,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148958","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a7202992d5ddf92ada601e92351fad24fff329c986728e607a032212eae036270d068b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"江啟臣","委員發言時間":"10:51:14 - 11:06:53","影片長度":"00:15:39","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精進作為」，併請內政部、教育部、勞動部列席，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":939,"end_time":"2023-12-11T11:06:53+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T10:51:14+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":600,"blocks":[["江委員啟臣：（10時51分）謝謝，請主席邀請部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長國正：江委員好。"],["江委員啟臣：部長，今年臺灣代表字的票選，大家選出「缺」字，我看你對這個字有做出回應，你說國軍缺乏更好的場地、訓練、更好的裝備等等。我請教一下部長，缺場地的部分，你現在覺得最缺的是哪一部分？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員首先說明，我沒有講什麼缺場地，我講缺的是我們缺乏訓練，我擔憂我們訓練不足，我只怕這一個。"],["江委員啟臣：所以是缺乏訓練？"],["邱部長國正：對，因為那天有這個字出來，結果就問我，我講我沒有表達任何意見，委員不要誤會，我沒有講缺場地……"],["江委員啟臣：OK，我看到媒體寫到你說缺更好的場地訓練。"],["邱部長國正：對，我們期待訓練得更好，這是當然要的。"],["江委員啟臣：我想說奇怪，所有我們該蓋的場地等等，立法院幾乎全部都給你預算，但是的確有一些延宕，對不對？你們在發包的時候，或者在做一些工程施作的時候，我們每一年審查預算常常都會出現預算沒有執行或執行率不佳。第一個，場地的部分，我認為基本上國防部編列的預算立法院幾乎都審議通過、都是支持的，所以接下來是你們執行率的問題。至於你提到更好的訓練這一塊，我想這個也的確是一個大問題，但不管是場地、人或者是裝備，包括裝備的部分，其實大家也都很關心，之前大家認為一些軍購延宕，雖然後來你們也修改了發價書，變更了交貨的期程，不過這個變更是延後的，這也是一個事實。我現在要問的就是，不管是F-16V、反裝甲的飛彈或者是肩射的刺針防空飛彈、M1A2T的裝甲車，還有F-16上面所用到的我們所採購的相關裝備，更改後的日期會不會再變？"],["邱部長國正：不會再變，因為……"],["江委員啟臣：不會再變了？"],["邱部長國正：對，有一些因為比較……"],["江委員啟臣：因為這個已經更改過交貨的日期了。"],["邱部長國正：但基本上最終交貨時間不會變。"],["江委員啟臣：最終交貨時間不會變？"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["江委員啟臣：所以我現在所看到的，不管是F-16V延到2025年第4季，反裝甲飛彈今年開始交運，肩射飛彈這部分延到2025年，甚至M1A2T也是明年才開始交貨，這些不會再變了吧？"],["邱部長國正：不會再變了。"],["江委員啟臣：不會了？"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["江委員啟臣：這個我要確認，因為基本上這都是預算沒有問題，而是交貨被延宕的部分。再來，其實如果要講「缺」，我認為國防部要最擔心的是缺人，缺人才是一個大問題。"],["邱部長國正：但是我沒有講到缺人，因為我們持續招募一定要經常做，這沒有缺不缺的問題。"],["江委員啟臣：對，當然，我知道你們也認真在招募，招募也在持續，可是你現在最大的問題就是你的編制員額21.5萬，我講的是志願役的部分，義務役當然很多人關心，明年1月開始義務役恢復成1年役期的徵兵制，但志願役的部分恐怕是你們……我認為這一塊不該被忽略，甚至應該要好好地去檢視跟檢討，因為21.5萬的編制員額，但是現在只有15.5萬，這個幾乎已經逼近七成，就是編現比從過去的八成多，一路掉、掉、掉到現在七成二，這個是一個滿大的危機。就算我們把純軍職的拿出來看，純軍職19.4萬的編制，但現在的員額是15.5萬，也才七成九、79%，也不到八成。更令人擔憂的是，這也是立法院預算中心所提出來的，就是第一線的戰鬥部隊編現比不到八成的問題，第一線的戰鬥部隊大概很難期待用未來1年期的義務役去彌補吧？不太容易。如果原本蔡總統所講的，義務役1年的兵役是以守備部隊為主，並不是第一線的主力戰鬥部隊，你要去彌補現在這個缺額，這個恐怕沒辦法彌補。而且我們現在所採購的這些新式武器，大概也很難用一般的義務役來訓練跟操作，你可能連訓練的時間都不夠，所以我說缺人才是你要面對的問題，到底原因是什麼？為什麼編現比一直掉？然後編現比一直掉就算了，你們現在還調高編制員額，112年開始逐次調整到現在是21.8萬，所以已經不是21.5萬。如果我們用21.8萬來除的時候，你現在的編現比是更低的，明年搞不好不到七成，這是代表要放棄志願役、放棄募兵制嗎？部長，不會調整吧？"],["邱部長國正：不會放棄，不會，因為……"],["江委員啟臣：不會到後來反過來變成是以義務役為主，志願役為輔？"],["邱部長國正：不會，我花一點時間跟委員報告，剛剛講要守備部隊沒有錯，但是我們當初有規劃得很好，有一些服兵役的弟兄有意願到主戰部隊去，他的專長要符合，經過我們測考、評鑑他可以……"],["江委員啟臣：可是他就是1年啊！"],["邱部長國正：沒有錯，所以一到主戰部隊以後，他不見得就投入主戰兵力，因為主戰部隊裡面也有很多戰鬥支援、勤務支援單位，這都可以算在裡面作為主戰部隊。"],["江委員啟臣：對，可是部長你要想，你現在馬上的落差21.8跟15.5，你算一下差多少？差將近6萬。你如果期待明年開始的1年期義務役補到這個數字要補多久？因為明年了不起讓你有個八、九千個1年期義務役回來當兵就已經不錯了，你原本預期是9,700個，但你認為會有9,700個，如你所想嗎？不見得啊！很多因素有可能導致他緩徵，緩徵是有可能的……"],["邱部長國正：會有這種問題，但明年我們查過了……"],["江委員啟臣：對，所以你要馬上彌補，我一直講這個gap，21.8跟現在的15.5，然後你馬上要接裝這些新的武器，這些新的武器不是只有操作這些，還包括維護、維修、後勤各方面，這個是一個大問題，部長，你們想好了沒？"],["邱部長國正：是，我要跟委員報告，這15萬還沒有包含維持員額，加上去裡面大概有十九萬多，我請戰規司跟您說明。"],["李司長世強：您剛剛講的分母就是志願役的人力，您剛剛是用19萬4……"],["江委員啟臣：對啊！我現在講的就是志願役，19萬4。"],["李司長世強：我們現員是15萬5，沒有錯，這中間有個缺口。"],["江委員啟臣：所以中間差了4萬。"],["李司長世強：對，編現比現在大概79.8%。"],["江委員啟臣：所以它基本上還是沒有達到，以往我們都拿8成來看，其實8成也是不夠啦！我要提出來的是，第一個，你用什麼方式留住現在招募來的？第二個，要能夠招募到新的。其實去年你們宣布恢復1年期徵兵的時候，有包括提高義務役的待遇，但我一直認為你們志願役的待遇都沒有提高，也沒有調，當時我也質問過部長，你們說就照行政院的人事相關規定來辦理，但是你們國防部自己有沒有想法？其實你們薪資待遇的誘因不足也是一個大因素，這個比較之下其實是很現實的問題，甚至我們到第一線去，我記得我當召委的時候，排了好幾次的考察，有一個小兵私底下跑到我旁邊跟我講悄悄話，他不敢跟你們講，他說的第一個：委員，我們常常都要待命，都沒辦法放假，沒辦法回去陪小孩、陪家人，那就算了！但是連津貼都沒有增加，也就是說，如果我們用加班費來比較的話，連這個也沒有，不管任何部隊，尤其是在第一線的這種戰備部隊。前陣子，包括現在也一樣，兩岸關係好像也沒有比較緩和，也沒有啦！他們出勤的狀況增加了，但是他的待遇卻沒有提高，他的加給、補給統統沒有增加，這是這一些基層士官兵不敢跟你們講的，可是他們卻偷偷到我耳邊講，甚至有些還直接寫陳情給我。部長，所以薪資待遇是一個問題，當然還有其他相關的配套福利，我知道你們想要蓋好的房舍給他們住，我們都支持，興安專案你們去蓋，我們都支持，可是薪資結構這一部分，你們有要調整嗎？目前的規劃有嗎？"],["鄧司長克雄：跟委員報告，有關薪資待遇的部分，除了他的基本待遇是跟著軍公教衡平的原則，我們依行政院的政策指導，另外我們也……"],["江委員啟臣：行政院的政策指導有要調嗎？沒有嘛！"],["鄧司長克雄：我們明年是調4%。"],["江委員啟臣：那個就是跟著所有的軍公教一起嘛。"],["鄧司長克雄：另外，我們還要依據他部隊的特性跟任務的屬性。"],["江委員啟臣：我知道，這個是原本有戰鬥加給，或者外島加給、特勤加給，對不對？"],["鄧司長克雄：是，會調整各種勤務跟專業加給，我們這個有逐年做滾動式的檢討。"],["江委員啟臣：但是最近也沒有調，我的意思是明年義務役的待遇大幅地調了，但志願役都沒有調，你看到你們的編現比都不緊張嗎？你不緊張，我還真的替你們緊張，為什麼？因為這中間會產生很多的空窗期會銜接不上、會有大問題，所以即便我們的武器來了、新式裝備來了，但是你會發覺怎麼樣？你沒有人力可以去熟悉、去操作，這個是國防上很大的一個問題，因為國防最後還是回到人，我就舉例美國2024年的NDAA，你知道它裡面直接寫軍人加薪，增加安全，增加這個預算總額，NDAA要求為美國軍人加薪5.2%，沒有錯，你說美國是軍事大國，可是他們也是一樣，他到現在還在為職業軍人加薪，所以我今天在這邊特別提出來，之前我也提過了，但我看到你們的編現比之後，覺得令人更加地擔心。","因為主席站起來了，我最後提出一個問題，在美國剛出爐的國防授權法（NDAA）裡面，基本上參眾兩院都已經有基本的一些共識了，這當中也提到了很多關於對臺的部分，有關情報交換、軍事訓練合作等，特別是軍事訓練合作這一塊，他們特別、特別地強調，我想請教一下部長，目前我們主要都還是以陸軍為主，對不對？"],["邱部長國正：地面的。"],["江委員啟臣：以陸軍為主，規模稍微比較大一點的，海、空軍的部分未來有沒有打算？"],["邱部長國正：這是我們現在一直在做的工作。"],["李司長世強：陸海空軍都有。"],["江委員啟臣：陸海空軍都有？"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["江委員啟臣：這部分的規模應該會持續加大吧？"],["李司長世強：報告，會持續地把它鞏固下去。"],["江委員啟臣：好，那在NDAA這一次的條文裡面，你們注意看，它特別提到一個部分，我認為是值得注意的，它特別提到要求美國的國防部長，還有他們參謀聯席會議的主席，甚至是情報單位，要deliver一個完整的報告，這個報告是關於什麼？任何可能被共軍怎麼樣？封鎖的可能跟方式，然後因應的這些方案等等，這部分我們自己有沒有做相關的研析跟推演？"],["邱部長國正：有，這就是為什麼我們每一年都有這個備戰計畫，將各種可能的行動全部放在裡面，這也是我們平常部隊演訓的一個依據，一定要放上去的。"],["江委員啟臣：因為這裡面特別提到，identification of warning signs of a potential blockade，就是說對於一個有潛在的封鎖、可能的徵兆，要有辦法identify，我們有辦法嗎？比如我們現在能不能告訴大家，在什麼狀況底下，我們看得出來這可能要對臺灣進行封鎖？"],["邱部長國正：這個就是我們平常在研判的，看到徵候……"],["江委員啟臣：我們自己有沒有這個identification的list？"],["邱部長國正：我們當然有各種備案，但我們……"],["江委員啟臣：當然，有一些不能在這裡講。"],["主席（廖委員婉汝）：對。"],["江委員啟臣：但我要確認你們到底有沒有？"],["主席：有啦！"],["邱部長國正：跟委員報告，國軍建軍備戰這麼多年……"],["主席：詳細的跟江委員報告一下。"],["邱部長國正：假如沒有的話，那真的是笑話一則啦！"],["江委員啟臣：好，這個問題在於你要如何預防，沒有錯，這是一些警示，可是面對這些警示，你要如何破解、如何預防，讓它不要發生？這部分有沒有相關的準備？"],["邱部長國正：我們每一年……"],["主席：應該也有吧？沙盤推演都有在做。"],["邱部長國正：我們派人私下跟委員報告，好不好？"],["主席：之前考察都有去看，任何警訊都有。"],["江委員啟臣：好，因為這個NDAA裡面特別提出來，所以我在這邊要講的是，當它特別提出來的時候就代表這個恐怕也是未來我們要面對的一個重點，請國防部好好準備，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：好的。"],["主席：好，謝謝江委員。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：我們幾次的考察都瞭解，不敢說國防部其實情資掌控得非常好，但是應該都有在掌控，可是這個自願役的加給一定要提高，不提高，退伍潮會很多，謝謝。","現在我們處理臨時提案，有2個案子，請議事人員宣讀第1案。","一、","鑒於共軍無人機對我外島防務威脅日深，國軍急需無人機反制系統應對威脅，惟今年由經濟部委民間研製之無人機反制系統原型系統，因系統整合失敗，陸軍司令部已予解約。據國防部向立法院送交之報告指出，未來將由工程會、經濟部及國防部等跨部會另成立無人機反制系統專案小組，研議系統規格及採購作法。","中科院本具備研製無人機反制或防禦系統之能力，惟為因應經濟部無人機國家隊之發展，扶植國內無人機反制系統產業，國防部考量外島需求，及國內國防產業技術整合能力，以委託研究方式，檢視國內廠商全系統研製能量，以做為未來建置籌獲參考。","未免失去扶植國內相關產業發展之本意，爰要求國防部未來不得以代理商取代研製之方式，招標無人機反制系統。","提案人：廖婉汝　　陳以信　　吳斯懷　　李德維"],["主席：請問國防部對提案內容有沒有意見？"],["李司長世強：委員，這邊補充說明一下，剛剛還來不及跟委員報告，如果按照委員這樣的臨時動議，就等於完全限制在我國內廠商，這一次的委製案為什麼後來會不成功？就是國內廠商自己沒有辦法整合，每一家又各自堅持自己的部分，它沒有辦法去變成一個team把它整合起來，所以這次的委製案才會失敗，但是我們現在開的限制性招標，是希望它在國內自製的比率越高，我給它的評分、加權就相對越高，用這樣子的方式來扶植我國內的產業，但是又不會去妨礙國外更先進的技術引進我國內。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["李司長世強：所以我們建議修成由經濟部來協助國內產業發展無人機反制系統。"],["主席：我這邊的修正，我原來要改了，「或經濟部」或什麼，沒有關係啦！那個就是照原來的文字，然後「或代理商應與國內合格廠商進行產業合作及項目投資，並落實技術轉移」可以嗎？"],["李司長世強：報告，可以。"],["主席：可以吧？"],["李司長世強：只要我們不要百分之百排除代理商的技術引進，這樣就可以。"],["主席：當然你們絕對沒有辦法，目前來講一定是代理商，我們要求代理商剛剛我講的就是國內設廠，不然就是你要跟我們的國內廠商做產業合作跟技術移轉，經濟部能不能同意？"],["連署長錦漳：遵照辦理。"],["李司長世強：那我們來修。"],["主席：好，你參考……"],["林委員靜儀：等一下，經濟部你們確定我們今天要委託的任何一間廠商要跟你們處理的時候，別人都願意把這個東西技轉給我們？你要確定喔！"],["主席：無人機應該OK啦！軍購的話就很難啦！"],["林委員靜儀：你不要到時候說人家不要技轉，我們就沒有辦法用到這種先進技程喔！"],["連署長錦漳：我跟委員報告，這有兩個路徑，一個就是國內的廠商自行開發，另外一條路徑就是主席講的可以跟代理商合作，這兩個路徑一定要同時進行。"],["主席：到最後一定是合作，只是不能完全買來交給我們就好了。"],["林委員靜儀：剛剛主席講的代理商合作，他還要求說你要有技轉，或者是一定要有相關的代理商要跟我們有怎麼樣的作法，你要不要把文字先聽清楚，確定是怎麼樣的文字。"],["主席：那個文字思考一下，來。"],["連署長錦漳：有……"],["主席：因為我知道完全否決代理商，你們絕對會反對，我也有腹案，參考一下文字修正，就是加註後面那些……"],["連署長錦漳：我建議可以加「爰要求國防部未來除尋求國內製造之外，可請求代理商與國內合格廠商進行產業合作及相互投資並落實技術移轉……」"],["主席：前面國防部那一塊加起來。"],["連署長錦漳：把國產的那一塊加在最前面。"],["主席：可以，前面國防部那一段沒有的，你加。"],["連署長錦漳：就是把國產製的那一塊加進去。"],["何委員志偉：我們可不可以先看一下最新版的更新文字，好不好？這樣我覺得比較妥善。"],["主席：對，那你們修正一下，我們進行第2案，好不好？把握時間。","第2案請議事人員宣讀。","二、","臨時提案","國防部為突破募兵之困境及建立培育文武兼備人才之教育模式，清華大學與國防部多次協調終獲同意成立「國防學士班」計畫，二○一九年招收優秀高中畢業生從軍報國。二○二○年成功大學等頂尖大學也陸續加入，開啟了我國大學募兵新頁。","惟因招生人數不如計畫預期，國防部已發函各大學，審視國防學士班招生狀況，並有學校已規劃明年度停止辦理國防學士班招生。目前正在辦理「國防學士班」的清華、成大、中興三校，均向國防部表達了續辦意願、極力争取。雖國防部今年九月獲同意續辦，卻於十一月又來函勒令停招。","教育部已核定招生、學校亦已宣傳招生，為避免侵害信賴保護原則、培育文武兼備人才及多元募兵之意旨，爰要求國防部針對同意續辦之學校，應繼續辦理國防學士班計畫。","提案人：廖婉汝　　陳以信　　楊瓊瓔　　吳斯懷　　李德維"],["主席：國防部有沒有意見？"],["劉次長沛智：跟委員報告，它這裡有提到9月同意續辦這個部分，其實我們今年在6月7號的時候發函到各學校，有7所學校，其中4所學校表達他們不願意辦了，只剩下中興、成功跟清華他們願意試辦，後來我們整個做完……"],["主席：怎麼跟你報告相反啊？清華、中興跟成功是不要……"],["劉次長沛智：沒有，中興、成功跟清華這3所是要續辦的，後來我們整個檢討之後成效不佳，而且它跟ROTC的重複性很高，它完全可以用ROTC的模式來進入軍中，所以我們有發函給這3所大學，希望能夠去跟他們做一個說明，那中興大學後來也願意配合國防部的政策停止招辦，不辦理了；清華跟成大他們在報紙所刊的那些並不是事實。"],["主席：那副校長講的是假話？"],["劉次長沛智：不是，我在這邊非常負責任跟委員報告，我們所有的紀錄都有非常清楚的紀錄，他們一延再延，就是一直再延到12月底，所有的招生簡章是在12月初到1月才會出來，所以現在根本都還沒有開始招生，它必須要在招生簡章出來，在明年1月20號學測之後才會開始招生，也就是說113年所有的學生並沒有開始招生。我們檢討了這些所有的經過之後，決定113年停招，後續如果還有意願想從軍的都可以循ROTC的模式進入軍中。"],["主席：好，瞭解，那這個提案呢？我如果改成「建議」就好了？"],["劉委員世芳：主席，我可以發言嗎？"],["主席：可以。"],["劉委員世芳：我覺得主席跟一些提案委員的提案其實是相當的積極跟正面，大家都知道開這個國防學士班跟所謂的 ROTC最重要是裡面的教學內容，並不是表示這些所謂的文人大學，就是不是軍事院校的這些文人大學的學校沒有這個意願，更何況我們現在國防部不是只有針對職業軍人或是志願役，未來有很多包括可以到中科院或是可以到理工科系為主的，包括什麼無人機也好或是飛彈等等這些，如果可以從這3、4所學校裡面得到更先進的一些計畫或者是教學方向的話，其實都可行。我們只要在限制招生的條件上面，不要說你要去參加以後一定要當志願役，所以我覺得主席你的提案可不可以只有在最後「應繼續積極溝通辦理國防學士班計畫」，因為我不認為有一些大學副校長講的話是偏頗的，可能在溝通上面出現一些狀況……"],["主席：是。"],["劉委員世芳：主席也非常瞭解這中間的差距，所以我認為第一個，當時包括我們立法院外交及國防委員會都希望國防部可以跟這些所謂的頂尖大學一起來合作，但是合作開辦的科目或是教學的對象其實是可以再多做溝通的，所以不要當成說我們就不辦就好了，我想這樣反而不好，會斷掉我們原來文人，尤其是有基本頂尖科研學校的合作機會。以上。"],["主席：好，我同意劉委員的修正方式，你針對內容修正……"],["羅委員致政：主席……"],["主席：請說。"],["羅委員致政：可以建議啦！就是也結合剛才劉世芳委員的建議，我是建議就改一個字就好了，最後兩句就是「爰要求國防部針對同意續辦之學校，研議繼續辦理國防學士班計畫。」這樣就好了吧？"],["主席：沒錯，我也只改兩個字啦！比較快，因為其實我覺得這是一種管道，ROTC試辦失敗也再辦過，我覺得不要把這個管道封鎖了。"],["劉委員世芳：對、對、對。"],["主席：好不好？研議可以，「要求」改「研議」，可以嗎？國防部。"],["劉次長沛智：跟委員說明，我們正期班的招募成效103%、ROTC 135%、專業軍官班109%，但是整個國防學士班招募的狀況只有33%，扣掉21個退學之後，只剩下22%，整個成本效益跟招募的效果真的是……"],["主席：對不起啦！我是提案，我是留一條路你們未來可以走……"],["劉次長沛智：繼續研議。"],["主席：我沒有要求你們，你們跟它說停辦了，現在沒有要求你明年113年一定要招嘛！但是我是覺得研議，對不對？留一個未來國防學士班的話或許可行嘛！"],["羅委員致政：可以啦！可以啦！"],["主席：我說你們誘因不足嘛！"],["劉次長沛智：是，瞭解。"],["主席：而且那個設計的方式不對啊！國防學士班如果他不想念的時候，連學籍都沒有，他當然不敢報名了啊！因為你們很多人都不適應退伍了，他們怎麼知道我念的國防學士班能不能念得完，對不對？所以我是覺得主要是設計上也有一點機制上的問題，不然的話，教學合作班為什麼理工學院都非常踴躍？雙學位，他們多踴躍啊！對不對？好不好？我是覺得改「研議」，可以嗎？"],["劉次長沛智：報告委員，我們最後提個意見，倒數第二行「爰要求」改成「爰建議」國防部，後面就是……"],["主席：建議、研議都可以啦！"],["劉次長沛智：「應繼續」就是委員所剛剛說的……"],["主席：我也是改這兩個字而已。"],["劉次長沛智：是。"],["主席：你們要研議還是建議？研議比較好啦！「應研議繼續」好，OK。"],["羅委員致政：好啦！可以啦！就把「應」改成「研議」兩個字就好了。"],["主席：「應」改成「研議」好了，可以嗎？"],["劉次長沛智：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：各位委員沒有意見吧？好，那第1案呢？我們請議事人員宣讀嗎？"],["何委員志偉：可不可以也拜託讓議事人員把那個新的版本文字提供紙本給我們，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：第1案先唸。"],["何委員志偉：同步提供紙本，好嗎？謝謝！"],["主席：先印紙本，我們就第2案先唸好不好？第1案趕快先印紙本給大家參考。","好，宣讀第2案。","第2案協商結果：爰要求國防部針對同意續辦之學校，研議繼續辦理國防學士班計畫，其餘均照原提案通過。"],["主席：好，第2案各位委員沒有意見吧？國防部沒有意見吧？那我們修正通過，謝謝。","第1案趕快印，分送給大家。"],["何委員志偉：好，第2案沒意見，第1案？"],["主席：好，各位手上拿到第1案，我們請議事人員宣讀。","第1案修正之文字：未免失去扶植國內相關產業發展之本意，爰要求國防部除採購國內自製產品，若採購國外現貨應要求代理商與國內合格廠商進行產業合作及相互投資，並落實技術轉移。其他同原提案通過。另第1段第3行「陸軍司令部已予解約」改為「陸軍司令部已予終止合約」，其他照原提案通過。"],["主席：好，各位委員有沒有意見？"],["連署長錦漳：剛剛無人機反制那個，為了讓它能夠更確實落實，我們建議這樣修正：「爰要求國防部除採購國內產製產品外，如係採購國外貨品，應要求落實在地化組裝或與國內廠商合作。」"],["主席：除國防部採購國內自製產品，要加「國防部」就是了？"],["連署長錦漳：對，因為採購是國防部……"],["林委員靜儀：你前面就有「爰要求國防部」了啊！"],["連署長錦漳：那個本來就國防部的。"],["主席：所以你對哪一個有意見？"],["連署長錦漳：我重新唸一次？「爰要求國防部除採購國內產製產品外，如係採購國外貨品，應要求落實在地化組裝或與國內廠商合作。」"],["林委員靜儀：我覺得這樣比較順，所以文字跟我們現在手上的紙本又不一樣囉？"],["主席：國內「自製」改「產製」對不對？國內產製產品若……"],["林委員靜儀：加一個「外，」。"],["主席：好，再重新唸一次吧？"],["林委員靜儀：你文字有給國防部了嘛！對不對？"],["劉委員世芳：我們這邊文字不是新的喔！我們這邊的文字不是新的。"],["主席：還要再印嗎？"],["羅委員致政：不用了啦，唸一次就夠了。"],["主席：唸一次，大家注意一下！"],["林委員靜儀：署長，你文字有給召委了嘛！"],["連署長錦漳：我剛剛給……"],["主席：給了。來，請議事人員從「爰要求國防部」那裡開始再唸一次。","第1案修正文字：爰要求國防部除採購國內產製產品外，如係採購國外貨品，應要求落實在地化組裝或與國內廠商合作。"],["主席：後面「及相互投資，並落實技術轉移」沒有嗎？"],["連署長錦漳：對啊！就是要落實，跟國內廠商合作有不同方式啊！那個方式，我們不要把它限制住。","跟主席報告一下，因為有一些技術，我們國內如果已經達到一定……如果所採購的是比較先進的，他要向國外採購的話，我們不要給他限制一定的模式，譬如說，他如果可以共同投資，或是技術授權或種種方式，我們把它涵蓋為叫做「與國內廠商合作」。"],["羅委員致政：主席，我覺得經濟部這樣的建議是有必要，因為相互有時候是我們技術比較尖端，你要強迫我們一定要技轉給他，或者反過來講，他要投資我們，因為被他買掉也有可能啊！所以保留一定的彈性，這樣可能會比較好，用一般性的相互合作，這樣就好。"],["劉委員世芳：主席，我來講一下，在臨時提案裡面有寫到工程會，其實工程會它是處理有關政府採購法的部分，所以它是不是會納入所謂的無人機反制系統專案小組，因為它不可能球員兼裁判，所以其實這個工程會放進去是比較奇怪。","第二個是國科會上個禮拜也公布我們臺灣的關鍵基礎設施或是關鍵基礎的部分是要受限的，所以能不能跟國外廠商合作，其實這些有關的限制條件都要放進去，因為我們這邊講的無人機，應該不是指一般的商用，或者是遊戲用的無人機，應該是軍用商規，或是軍用軍規，所以應該有更嚴格的限制，不能就是這樣說，我們可以這樣做那樣做，我是覺得一定要符合臺灣國內的法制基礎，還有符合對國家安全的需求才可以，我認為要加上這樣的限制條件比較合範。"],["主席：所以按照經濟部提的內容嗎？"],["連署長錦漳：那如果說像剛才委員提的話，我們後面就說「要與國內廠商合作，並遵守相關法令規定。」"],["主席：原來你們的那個產業發展條例裡面，就有相關法律規定，我們要求的是要落實。"],["連署長錦漳：剛剛劉委員講的是那個關鍵技術，現在最近……"],["主席：我跟你講，關鍵技術就是那個……我們今天主要要審的國防產業發展條例，你們根本不敢動嘛！因為技轉完全是零啦，很難啦，尤其是軍購的東西，我是覺得經濟部如果這樣寫我們是能接受啦，一定要跟國內廠商合作嘛！不管是我們學他，他學我們都一樣，在地組裝也可以啦！"],["劉委員世芳：把代理商刪掉啦，因為代理商看起來不太像是一個產製的廠商，因為第一段有代理商。"],["連署長錦漳：我是寫採購國外貨品啦！"],["主席：來，請議事人員再唸一次。"],["連署長錦漳：後來改的那一版沒有代理商。"],["主席：經濟部改的這一塊啦。代理商是非常敏感的字眼啦，沒有關係啦，你們要改可以啦，先宣讀一次。","第1案修正文字：爰要求國防部除採購國內產製產品外，如係採購國外貨品，應要求落實在地化組裝或與國內廠商合作。"],["主席：可以嗎？"],["劉委員世芳：「要符合法律的規定」寫在哪裡？"],["主席：我覺得「法律規定」，那個原來就有法律規定了，我們在提案當中也不用寫到什麼法律規定。"],["何委員志偉：主席，我們是不是最後一段乾脆就把它刪掉好不好？"],["主席：哪一段？"],["何委員志偉：就是「未免失去扶植國內產業發展本意……」我覺得整段就不用了嘛！就留第一段跟第二段，我覺得這樣是否……因為裡面還討論到，這一次我們外島無人機的問題，其實不是國防部，也不是中科院，問題出在經濟部啊！你們現在搞這麼久，拖這麼久，那我們當時規格也好，其實技術、技術、技術，其實技術全部都有，那是廠商跟廠商之間不整合，就我們之前開出來的規格不整合，所以也不需要去提到任何國外的技術了，國內就有了，而且國內的技術，也有外銷到國外去，那是因為這一次整合起來，就簡單一點，就廠商跟廠商之間彼此之間的分配上面有問題嘛！所以我這邊建議是否留第一段、留第二段，第三段這邊，我們也不用去討論到國外了，因為這國內技術都夠，問題出在我們的整合啊，經濟部在這件事情上面，其實你的責任是最大的，你自己也清楚。"],["連署長錦漳：我跟委員報告……"],["何委員志偉：你知道整個會期中科院跟國防部都被白罵了，你知道嗎？他們被罵了一整個會期。"],["連署長錦漳：我跟委員報告，我們是推薦4家有能力的廠商到國防部，至於國防部後面怎麼進行採購，那是國防部在主責。"],["主席：那你為什麼現在招標是公開呢？除了那4家之外，其他沒有經過你們推薦也可以來參加招標！"],["何委員志偉：你如果當時候願意推薦他，他就願意可以整合啊！這些東西當時就整合不出來嘛！"],["連署長錦漳：報告委員，有關整合一事，我們本來是推薦四家，並仿照前面無人機，建議個別分開招標……"],["何委員志偉：我必須講我知道大家都很努力，也是為了這個國家好。但這件事情搞太久了，好不好？沒關係，對於臨時提案的文字我請教一下召委，我們是否就留第一段與第二段？第三段感覺好像又開了一個空間出來，因為國內就可以處理了。"],["主席：國內如果可以處理，原型機早就已經造出來了！不然誰能講國內可以做？中科院院長？"],["蔡委員適應：主席，不好意思，我再問一下次長。剛才聽經濟部的說法，原來經濟部推薦給國防部四家，是認為這四家都有能力來完成這樣的要求，是國防部自己要求這四家整合成二個團隊？沒錯？所以國防部沒事為什麼要幹這種事？弄完之後最後弄不出來？原來經濟部的意思是認為這四家都能夠個別做出無人機反制防禦系統，最後由國防部個別評審，你的建議原來是這樣子嗎？"],["連署長錦漳：報告委員，國防部有開規格給我們，由經濟部、國防部、國科會與工程會組成專案小組審查，審查後推薦這四家……"],["蔡委員適應：所以這四家的每一家都是個別廠商都能夠做，而不是這四家一定要整合成一家或兩家，沒有這樣要求吧？"],["連署長錦漳：當時給的建議並沒有要整合。"],["蔡委員適應：那就是國防部的問題了！"],["主席：來，國防部誰要說明？反正兩兩整合就是失敗，現在就是要公開招標！"],["蔡委員適應：主席，剛才經濟部講得很清楚，那四家自己做都可以成功，意思就是這樣，所以不要整合就沒事了！"],["林委員靜儀：什麼原因要求整合？可以說一下嗎？"],["趙主任亞平：因為經濟部的評估，原本這四家廠商沒有一家有完全能力的，所以必須自由組合，而陸軍並沒有要求說要怎麼組合，不論三加一、二加二或一家去整合三家都沒有問題。後來由他們四家自己去配對，也就是兩兩；兩兩裡面誰比較好？就用評選的機制選出來，也就是創未來和創思達這兩家公司為一個單位來承接這個委製案。承接委製案的結果是：他們做不出來！而做不出來是因為甲、乙這兩家廠商……創思達不跟創未來整合，因為他的能力，如雷達方面不願意跟他合作，以致他們兩個合作破局，這段是他們廠商之間的問題，我們希望……"],["蔡委員適應：上次審預算的時候，我們其實有問過這個案子，當時我們有做過一個決議，我記得王定宇委員也在。當時有說你再問一下另外一家有沒有意願要做？部長現場說沒問題，會再問另外一家有沒有意願，後來有沒有問？因為你們現在解約了？"],["趙主任亞平：對。"],["蔡委員適應：你們有沒有問另外一組？你們有沒有去問另外那兩家有沒有意願做？這原來是科研案，對不對？"],["趙主任亞平：是一個委託研究案。"],["蔡委員適應：你們有沒有去問？因為部長現場答應我們，也說不然也鼓勵另外兩家參與，這是部長現場說的，可是一個禮拜後你們就公告案子解約，我也不曉得為什麼？"],["主席：我們就是搞不清楚為什麼？而且現在變成公開招標？其實公開招標可以獲得的話都可以，但這些技術，如果每一家廠商標到的有一些技術 knowhow需要合作，因為兩兩合作都弄不出來的話，我相信當中一定有一些關鍵技術，而且一定要在地組裝！經濟部說要在地組裝或與國內廠商合作，這些我們都沒有意見，至少相輔相成。再說，我們有一些技術移轉內容，不管是兩兩或經濟部推薦的那四家，按照國防部要求的資格是OK的，但是你要叫他們合作生產就是有問題啊，所以才會解約嘛！"],["趙主任亞平：報告委員，後續的量產案……"],["主席：就停擺啦！延宕啦！"],["趙主任亞平：我們就沒有綁住要兩兩或是要哪幾家廠商相互合作，也就是開放式的……"],["主席：簡單講，他們就是不合作……"],["趙主任亞平：沒有，但是量產案的話所有廠商都可以來參加……"],["主席：他們不合作也就沒有原型機出來，也沒有辦法量產！"],["趙主任亞平：原本就是選了那四家……"],["主席：對，但是那四家不合作，所以你們現在就開放，已經不是經濟部評審的那四家，全部都可以來……"],["趙主任亞平：對、對。"],["主席：但你覺得優的這四家都做不出來了，還要公開？其實我覺得都沒問題，所以我要拜託各位委員，我提案目的只是希望能採購到，不管用什麼方式，如果覺得代理商這名字不好聽，要取消掉，那沒有關係，但我希望國內廠商引進的國外技術能技轉、能合作、能在地生產就好了，好不好？可不可以這樣子？"],["何委員志偉：主席，我就教一下，第三段要留嗎？還是……"],["主席：都要留！"],["何委員志偉：我的認知是最後真正應該要求的是時間，是時間啦！"],["主席：他們有預算壓力，你說「未免失去扶植國內……」這個要拿掉嗎？"],["何委員志偉：不然就按照大家的共識……"],["主席：對，按照經濟部這個可以吧？"],["羅委員致政：對。主席，我建議，坦白講，我們也沒那麼偉大，通過決議後你們馬上就生得出來！事實上這只是我們立場的表態，要求你們落實相關的……因為顯然國內這條路走不出去了，走不出一條路來，如果用代理商或進口方式也許能夠儘量……並因此協助國內廠商的研發能力。我覺得修改後的文字是主席的核心，應該是可以接受的，不要再刪了。"],["主席：其他委員呢？國防部？"],["何委員志偉：不然就按照原文字，好不好？"],["主席：不是原文字，按照修正過的經濟部文字。國防部？"],["趙主任亞平：沒意見。"],["何委員志偉：國防部不能再拖了！"],["主席：修正通過。休息10分鐘。","休息（11時36分）","繼續開會（11時46分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。接下來請蔡適應委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","speakers":["廖婉汝","李德維","林昶佐","陳亭妃","陳以信","賴瑞隆","王定宇","楊瓊瓔","吳斯懷","江啟臣","林靜儀","何志偉","劉世芳","羅致政","蔡適應","邱臣遠","陳椒華","陳明文","蔡易餘","馬文君","趙天麟","陳超明"],"page_start":157,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精\n進作為」，並備質詢；二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1130201_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"148958","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148958","tool":"pyannote","id":"148958-pyannote"},"job_id":"LRgYJgP58vwr821F","queued_at":"2025-10-22 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{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"姜\", \"start\": 936.978, \"end\": 937.178, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 937.178, \"end\": 937.198, \"score\": 0.003}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,051 --> 00:00:04,555\n請這個主席邀請部長邱委員好部長這個今年啊\n\n2\n00:00:20,438 --> 00:00:39,945\n台灣的代表制的這個票選,大家選出缺字嘛那我看你有對這個自由做出回應說,你說國軍缺乏更好的場地訓練然後更好的這些裝備等等那我請教一下部長,缺場地這個部分你現在\n\n3\n00:00:41,065 --> 00:00:57,807\n我覺得最缺的是哪一步?我沒有講缺場地,我缺的是缺乏我們訓練,我擔心我們訓練不足,我只怕這一個。所以是缺乏訓練?對,因為那天有這個字出來,我就去問,我沒有表達任何意見。\n\n4\n00:01:00,830 --> 00:01:16,156\n我看到媒體寫說,你說缺更好的場地做訓練。我想說奇怪,這些我們該蓋的場地等等,立法院幾乎全部都給你預算,但是的確有一些延宕。\n\n5\n00:01:17,276 --> 00:01:43,347\n對不對,你們在發包的時候,或者在做一些工程的這些施作的時候我們每年審查預算常常都會出現預算沒有執行,或執行率不佳嘛所以第一個,場地的部分我認為基本上國防部編列的預算,立法院幾乎都審議通過啦,都是支持的所以接下來是你們執行率的問題至於你提到說更好的訓練這一塊,我想這個\n\n6\n00:01:46,948 --> 00:02:08,820\n也的確是一個大問題,但不管是場地、人或者是裝備,包括裝備的這部分其實大家也都很關心,之前大家認為說一些軍購的延宕雖然後來你們也修改了發架書,變更了這個交貨的期程不過這個變更是延後的,這也是一個事實\n\n7\n00:02:09,580 --> 00:02:27,811\n那我現在要問的就是說,不管是F16V仿裝甲的飛彈,或者是建設的次增防空飛彈M1A2T的裝甲車,還有這個F16上面所用到的這些相關的我們說採購的裝備更改後的這些日期,會不會再變?\n\n8\n00:02:32,559 --> 00:02:56,236\n不會再變因為這個已經更改過交貨的日期了但基本上最終止交貨的時間不會變最終止交貨不會變所以我現在所看到的不管是F-16V延到2025年的第四季然後仿專甲飛彈延到今年開始交運然後監射飛彈這邊延到2025\n\n9\n00:02:59,598 --> 00:03:18,425\n甚至是M1A2T也是明年才開始交貨,這些不會再變了吧不會再變這個我要確認,因為基本上這都是預算沒有問題,都是交貨被延宕的部分再來一個其實如果要講缺,我認為最大國防部你要擔心的是缺人\n\n10\n00:03:20,733 --> 00:03:47,031\n我沒有講這個缺人,因為我們這個持續招募一定要經常做,當然招募我知道你們也認真在招募,招募也在持續可是你現在最大的問題就是你的編制元額21.5萬,我講志願役的部分義務役當然很多人關心,明年1月開始,義務役恢復成一年的疫期的增兵制但志願役的部分,這恐怕是你們\n\n11\n00:03:48,152 --> 00:04:08,136\n我認為這一塊不該被忽略,甚至應該要好好的去檢視跟檢討的因為21.5萬的編制元額,但是現在只有15.5萬這個是幾乎已經逼近七成就編線比,從過去的八成多一路掉掉,掉到現在七成二\n\n12\n00:04:10,230 --> 00:04:38,243\n這個是一個蠻大的危機就算我們把這個純均值的拿出來看你純均值的19.4萬的編制但現在的原額是15.5萬那也才7乘979%也不到八成那更令人擔憂的這也是立法院預算中心所提出來的就是說第一線的戰鬥部隊編線比不到八成的問題\n\n13\n00:04:39,417 --> 00:04:57,986\n那這個第一線的戰鬥部隊,你大概很難期待說用未來一年期的義務役去彌補吧,不太容易吧如果原本蔡總統所講的,義務役一年的兵役是以守備部隊為主,它並不是所謂第一線的主力戰鬥部隊\n\n14\n00:04:59,625 --> 00:05:20,094\n那你要去彌補你現在這個缺額,那這個恐怕沒辦法做彌補而且我們現在所採購的這些新式的武器,你大概也很難用一般的EVE來做訓練跟操作你可能連訓練的時間都不夠,所以我說缺人的這個問題才是你要面對的問題\n\n15\n00:05:21,394 --> 00:05:31,600\n到底原因是什麼,為什麼邊線比一直掉然後邊線比一直掉就算了你們現在還調高編制元額喔從21.5萬然後從112年開始逐次調整到現在是21.8萬所以已經不是21.5萬了所以如果我們用21.8萬來除的時候你現在的邊線比是更低的啊\n\n16\n00:05:50,112 --> 00:05:51,221\n明年搞不好不到七成\n\n17\n00:05:52,116 --> 00:06:20,758\n那這是代表要放棄志願役嗎?放棄募兵制嗎?部長不會調整吧?不會不會因為到後來反過來變成是義務役為主然後志願役為服務我跟委員花點時間跟文靜報告喔就是說剛剛講說的守備部隊沒有錯但我們當中有規劃很好喔有一些伏兵役的弟兄他有意願到主戰部隊去的喔他的專長要符合經過我們測考可以評鑑可是他就是一年啊\n\n18\n00:06:21,278 --> 00:06:46,186\n沒有錯,所以我們一到主戰部隊以後,他不見得就投入主戰兵力因為主戰部隊裡面也有很多戰鬥支援、勤務支援單位這都可以算在裡面可是部長你要想,你現在馬上的落差21.8跟15.5你算一下差多少?差將近6萬\n\n19\n00:06:47,586 --> 00:07:15,088\n差將近六萬然後你如果要期待說明年開始的一年期的義務役補到這個數字你要補多久因為你明年了不起讓你讓你有個八九千個一年期的義務役回來來當兵就已經不錯囉你原本預期是九千七百個嘛但你認為會有九千七百個如你所想嗎不見得啊很多因素有可能導致他怎麼樣他緩爭啊\n\n20\n00:07:17,832 --> 00:07:42,993\n他緩爭是有可能的所以你要馬上彌補啊,我一直講這個gap你21.8跟你現在15.5然後你馬上要接裝這些新的武器這些新的武器不是只有說操作這些包括維護維修後勤各方面這個是一個大問題部長你們想好了沒\n\n21\n00:07:45,736 --> 00:08:09,475\n這15萬我要跟委員報告,它還沒有包含這個維持原額喔在風扇裡面大概有19萬多啦好不好,我這跟...請上官...您剛講的分母就是自願役的人力對啊,自願役,我現在講的就是自願役的19萬4嘛那我們縣緣是15萬5沒有錯,這中間有個缺口這中間差了4萬對,大概邊縣比現在大概79.8嘛所以它基本上還是沒有達到\n\n22\n00:08:13,659 --> 00:08:27,573\n以往我們都拿八成來看其實八成也是不夠啦所以我要提出來就是說你用什麼方式第一個留住現在的招募來的第二個要能夠找不到新的\n\n23\n00:08:29,238 --> 00:08:49,627\n其實去年你們在宣布說恢復增兵,一年期增兵的時候,包括提高了EWE的待遇但我一直認為你們自願意待遇都沒有提啊,也沒有調啊當時候我也質問過部長嘛,那你們是講說我們就照這個行政院的人事相關的規定來辦理\n\n24\n00:08:52,669 --> 00:09:09,474\n但是你們國防部自己有沒有想法說其實你的薪資待遇的誘因不足也是一個大因素這個比較之下其實是很現實的問題甚至我們到第一線去我記得有當召委的時候排了好幾次的考察\n\n25\n00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:31,708\n有一些小兵私底下跑到我旁邊跟我講悄悄話他不敢跟你們講他說第一個他說委員我們常常都待命都沒辦法放假沒辦法回去陪小孩陪家人那就算了連什麼連津貼都沒有增加也就是說啦如果我們用加班費來比較的話連這個也沒有\n\n26\n00:09:34,399 --> 00:09:54,445\n不管任何部隊啦,尤其在第一線這種戰備的部隊尤其前陣子,包括現在也一樣,兩岸關係也沒有說因為現在好像比較緩和,也沒有啦他們的出勤的狀況也都增加,但是他的待遇沒有提高,他的家籍補給都沒有增加\n\n27\n00:09:56,816 --> 00:10:21,706\n這是這些基層士官兵,他不敢跟你們講的可是他們卻偷偷到我耳邊講,甚至有些直接寫陳情給我所以部長,薪資待遇是一個問題當然還有其他的相關的配套福利,我知道你們想要蓋好的房舍給他們住,我們都支持啊新安專案你們去蓋我們都支持啊可是薪資結構這一部分,你們有要調整嗎\n\n28\n00:10:23,955 --> 00:10:43,444\n目前的規劃有嗎跟委員報告有關於薪資待遇的部分除了他的基本待遇是跟著軍公教橫屏的原則我們依行政院的政策指導行政院的政策指導有要調嗎沒有嘛那個就是跟著所有的軍公教一起另外我們還依據他的部隊的特性跟任務的屬性\n\n29\n00:10:44,184 --> 00:11:07,227\n你知道那個是原本有戰鬥加級、會調整各種勤務跟專業加級我們這個是逐年有在做滾動式的檢討但是最近也沒有調啦我的意思是說明年EWE的大幅的調了但志願也都沒有調可是你看到你的邊線筆你們都不緊張嗎你不緊張我真的還替你們緊張\n\n30\n00:11:08,528 --> 00:11:33,391\n為什麼因為這種東西會產生很多的空窗期會銜接不上會有大問題所以即便我們武器來了新式裝備來了但是你就會發覺怎麼樣你沒有人力可以去熟悉去操作這個是國防上很大的一個問題因為國防最後還是回到人啦我就舉例嘛美國的NDAA2024年的NDAA你知道它裡面\n\n31\n00:11:34,656 --> 00:11:42,823\n它裡面直接寫軍人加薪增加預算總額這個NDA要求為美國軍人加薪5.2%沒有錯你說美國它是軍事大國可是呢\n\n32\n00:11:57,295 --> 00:12:17,505\n他們也是一樣,他現在還在為軍人,職業軍人,這是職業軍人所以我今天在這邊特別提出來,就是我之前我也提過了啦但我覺得就是看到你們編憲筆之後,令人更加的擔心啦那最後最後,因為主席站起來了,我最後提出一個問題,就是說\n\n33\n00:12:20,186 --> 00:12:46,013\n這個NDA裡面國防授權法,美國剛出爐的這個國防授權法這個基本上參眾兩院都已經有基本的一些共識了這當中也提到了很多關於對台的這一部分情報交換、軍事訓練合作那特別是軍事訓練合作這一塊他們特別特別的強調,我想請教一下部長\n\n34\n00:12:47,458 --> 00:13:04,675\n目前我們主要都還是以陸軍為主陸軍為主,比較規模稍微大一點的海空軍的部分未來有沒有打算?一直都有我們工作一直在做的陸海空軍都有這部分的規模應該會持續的加大\n\n35\n00:13:11,010 --> 00:13:29,627\n會持續的把它鞏固下去那在這個NDA裡面,這一次他的條文裡面,你們注意看他特別提到一個部分,我認為是值得注意的,他特別提到要求美國的國防部長還有他們的這個參謀聯席會議的主席,甚至是情報單位\n\n36\n00:13:31,209 --> 00:13:49,484\n要deliver一個完整的報告,這個報告是關於什麼?任何可能被共軍怎麼樣封鎖的可能跟方式然後因應的這些方案等等的這一部分\n\n37\n00:13:50,988 --> 00:14:08,735\n我們自己有沒有做相關的研析跟推演?這就是我們為什麼每一年有備戰計畫,不要調各種可能行動全部放在裡面這也就我們平常部隊演訓的一個依據因為這裡面特別提到,他說\n\n38\n00:14:09,975 --> 00:14:31,177\nidentificationofwarningsignofapotentialblockade就是說一個有潛在的封鎖可能的徵兆,要有辦法identify我們有辦法嗎?比如說我們現在能不能告訴大家說這什麼樣的狀況底下我們看出來,這可能要對台灣進行封鎖\n\n39\n00:14:33,252 --> 00:14:52,405\n我們平常都在研判的我們自己有沒有這個identification的list我們當然有各種備案當然有一些不能在這裡講但我要確認的就是你們到底有沒有我們跟委員報告,國際監獄對戰這麼多年要講沒有的話那真的笑話一則這個問題就是在於說,你要如何預防\n\n40\n00:15:03,112 --> 00:15:18,783\n警示,可是面對這些警示你如何破警,你如何預防,讓它不要發生這部分有沒有相關的準備?應該也有吧,大盤推演都有在演之前考察都有去看\n\n41\n00:15:20,748 --> 00:15:37,198\n好那就是說這個NDA裡面特別提出來所以我在這邊要講的就是當他特別提出來的時候就代表這個恐怕也是未來我們要面對的一個重點所以請國防部好好準備好不好好謝謝姜委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2051\t4555\t請這個主席邀請部長邱委員好部長這個今年啊\n20438\t39945\t台灣的代表制的這個票選,大家選出缺字嘛那我看你有對這個自由做出回應說,你說國軍缺乏更好的場地訓練然後更好的這些裝備等等那我請教一下部長,缺場地這個部分你現在\n41065\t57807\t我覺得最缺的是哪一步?我沒有講缺場地,我缺的是缺乏我們訓練,我擔心我們訓練不足,我只怕這一個。所以是缺乏訓練?對,因為那天有這個字出來,我就去問,我沒有表達任何意見。\n60830\t76156\t我看到媒體寫說,你說缺更好的場地做訓練。我想說奇怪,這些我們該蓋的場地等等,立法院幾乎全部都給你預算,但是的確有一些延宕。\n77276\t103347\t對不對,你們在發包的時候,或者在做一些工程的這些施作的時候我們每年審查預算常常都會出現預算沒有執行,或執行率不佳嘛所以第一個,場地的部分我認為基本上國防部編列的預算,立法院幾乎都審議通過啦,都是支持的所以接下來是你們執行率的問題至於你提到說更好的訓練這一塊,我想這個\n106948\t128820\t也的確是一個大問題,但不管是場地、人或者是裝備,包括裝備的這部分其實大家也都很關心,之前大家認為說一些軍購的延宕雖然後來你們也修改了發架書,變更了這個交貨的期程不過這個變更是延後的,這也是一個事實\n129580\t147811\t那我現在要問的就是說,不管是F16V仿裝甲的飛彈,或者是建設的次增防空飛彈M1A2T的裝甲車,還有這個F16上面所用到的這些相關的我們說採購的裝備更改後的這些日期,會不會再變?\n152559\t176236\t不會再變因為這個已經更改過交貨的日期了但基本上最終止交貨的時間不會變最終止交貨不會變所以我現在所看到的不管是F-16V延到2025年的第四季然後仿專甲飛彈延到今年開始交運然後監射飛彈這邊延到2025\n179598\t198425\t甚至是M1A2T也是明年才開始交貨,這些不會再變了吧不會再變這個我要確認,因為基本上這都是預算沒有問題,都是交貨被延宕的部分再來一個其實如果要講缺,我認為最大國防部你要擔心的是缺人\n200733\t227031\t我沒有講這個缺人,因為我們這個持續招募一定要經常做,當然招募我知道你們也認真在招募,招募也在持續可是你現在最大的問題就是你的編制元額21.5萬,我講志願役的部分義務役當然很多人關心,明年1月開始,義務役恢復成一年的疫期的增兵制但志願役的部分,這恐怕是你們\n228152\t248136\t我認為這一塊不該被忽略,甚至應該要好好的去檢視跟檢討的因為21.5萬的編制元額,但是現在只有15.5萬這個是幾乎已經逼近七成就編線比,從過去的八成多一路掉掉,掉到現在七成二\n250230\t278243\t這個是一個蠻大的危機就算我們把這個純均值的拿出來看你純均值的19.4萬的編制但現在的原額是15.5萬那也才7乘979%也不到八成那更令人擔憂的這也是立法院預算中心所提出來的就是說第一線的戰鬥部隊編線比不到八成的問題\n279417\t297986\t那這個第一線的戰鬥部隊,你大概很難期待說用未來一年期的義務役去彌補吧,不太容易吧如果原本蔡總統所講的,義務役一年的兵役是以守備部隊為主,它並不是所謂第一線的主力戰鬥部隊\n299625\t320094\t那你要去彌補你現在這個缺額,那這個恐怕沒辦法做彌補而且我們現在所採購的這些新式的武器,你大概也很難用一般的EVE來做訓練跟操作你可能連訓練的時間都不夠,所以我說缺人的這個問題才是你要面對的問題\n321394\t331600\t到底原因是什麼,為什麼邊線比一直掉然後邊線比一直掉就算了你們現在還調高編制元額喔從21.5萬然後從112年開始逐次調整到現在是21.8萬所以已經不是21.5萬了所以如果我們用21.8萬來除的時候你現在的邊線比是更低的啊\n350112\t351221\t明年搞不好不到七成\n352116\t380758\t那這是代表要放棄志願役嗎?放棄募兵制嗎?部長不會調整吧?不會不會因為到後來反過來變成是義務役為主然後志願役為服務我跟委員花點時間跟文靜報告喔就是說剛剛講說的守備部隊沒有錯但我們當中有規劃很好喔有一些伏兵役的弟兄他有意願到主戰部隊去的喔他的專長要符合經過我們測考可以評鑑可是他就是一年啊\n381278\t406186\t沒有錯,所以我們一到主戰部隊以後,他不見得就投入主戰兵力因為主戰部隊裡面也有很多戰鬥支援、勤務支援單位這都可以算在裡面可是部長你要想,你現在馬上的落差21.8跟15.5你算一下差多少?差將近6萬\n407586\t435088\t差將近六萬然後你如果要期待說明年開始的一年期的義務役補到這個數字你要補多久因為你明年了不起讓你讓你有個八九千個一年期的義務役回來來當兵就已經不錯囉你原本預期是九千七百個嘛但你認為會有九千七百個如你所想嗎不見得啊很多因素有可能導致他怎麼樣他緩爭啊\n437832\t462993\t他緩爭是有可能的所以你要馬上彌補啊,我一直講這個gap你21.8跟你現在15.5然後你馬上要接裝這些新的武器這些新的武器不是只有說操作這些包括維護維修後勤各方面這個是一個大問題部長你們想好了沒\n465736\t489475\t這15萬我要跟委員報告,它還沒有包含這個維持原額喔在風扇裡面大概有19萬多啦好不好,我這跟...請上官...您剛講的分母就是自願役的人力對啊,自願役,我現在講的就是自願役的19萬4嘛那我們縣緣是15萬5沒有錯,這中間有個缺口這中間差了4萬對,大概邊縣比現在大概79.8嘛所以它基本上還是沒有達到\n493659\t507573\t以往我們都拿八成來看其實八成也是不夠啦所以我要提出來就是說你用什麼方式第一個留住現在的招募來的第二個要能夠找不到新的\n509238\t529627\t其實去年你們在宣布說恢復增兵,一年期增兵的時候,包括提高了EWE的待遇但我一直認為你們自願意待遇都沒有提啊,也沒有調啊當時候我也質問過部長嘛,那你們是講說我們就照這個行政院的人事相關的規定來辦理\n532669\t549474\t但是你們國防部自己有沒有想法說其實你的薪資待遇的誘因不足也是一個大因素這個比較之下其實是很現實的問題甚至我們到第一線去我記得有當召委的時候排了好幾次的考察\n550960\t571708\t有一些小兵私底下跑到我旁邊跟我講悄悄話他不敢跟你們講他說第一個他說委員我們常常都待命都沒辦法放假沒辦法回去陪小孩陪家人那就算了連什麼連津貼都沒有增加也就是說啦如果我們用加班費來比較的話連這個也沒有\n574399\t594445\t不管任何部隊啦,尤其在第一線這種戰備的部隊尤其前陣子,包括現在也一樣,兩岸關係也沒有說因為現在好像比較緩和,也沒有啦他們的出勤的狀況也都增加,但是他的待遇沒有提高,他的家籍補給都沒有增加\n596816\t621706\t這是這些基層士官兵,他不敢跟你們講的可是他們卻偷偷到我耳邊講,甚至有些直接寫陳情給我所以部長,薪資待遇是一個問題當然還有其他的相關的配套福利,我知道你們想要蓋好的房舍給他們住,我們都支持啊新安專案你們去蓋我們都支持啊可是薪資結構這一部分,你們有要調整嗎\n623955\t643444\t目前的規劃有嗎跟委員報告有關於薪資待遇的部分除了他的基本待遇是跟著軍公教橫屏的原則我們依行政院的政策指導行政院的政策指導有要調嗎沒有嘛那個就是跟著所有的軍公教一起另外我們還依據他的部隊的特性跟任務的屬性\n644184\t667227\t你知道那個是原本有戰鬥加級、會調整各種勤務跟專業加級我們這個是逐年有在做滾動式的檢討但是最近也沒有調啦我的意思是說明年EWE的大幅的調了但志願也都沒有調可是你看到你的邊線筆你們都不緊張嗎你不緊張我真的還替你們緊張\n668528\t693391\t為什麼 因為這種東西會產生很多的空窗期會銜接不上 會有大問題所以即便我們武器來了 新式裝備來了但是你就會發覺怎麼樣 你沒有人力可以去熟悉去操作這個是國防上很大的一個問題因為國防最後還是回到人啦我就舉例嘛 美國的NDAA2024年的NDAA 你知道它裡面\n694656\t702823\t它裡面直接寫軍人加薪增加預算總額這個NDA要求為美國軍人加薪5.2%沒有錯你說美國它是軍事大國可是呢\n717295\t737505\t他們也是一樣,他現在還在為軍人,職業軍人,這是職業軍人所以我今天在這邊特別提出來,就是我之前我也提過了啦但我覺得就是看到你們編憲筆之後,令人更加的擔心啦那最後最後,因為主席站起來了,我最後提出一個問題,就是說\n740186\t766013\t這個NDA裡面國防授權法,美國剛出爐的這個國防授權法這個基本上參眾兩院都已經有基本的一些共識了這當中也提到了很多關於對台的這一部分情報交換、軍事訓練合作那特別是軍事訓練合作這一塊他們特別特別的強調,我想請教一下部長\n767458\t784675\t目前我們主要都還是以陸軍為主陸軍為主,比較規模稍微大一點的海空軍的部分未來有沒有打算?一直都有我們工作一直在做的陸海空軍都有這部分的規模應該會持續的加大\n791010\t809627\t會持續的把它鞏固下去那在這個NDA裡面,這一次他的條文裡面,你們注意看他特別提到一個部分,我認為是值得注意的,他特別提到要求美國的國防部長還有他們的這個參謀聯席會議的主席,甚至是情報單位\n811209\t829484\t要deliver一個完整的報告,這個報告是關於什麼?任何可能被共軍怎麼樣封鎖的可能跟方式然後因應的這些方案等等的這一部分\n830988\t848735\t我們自己有沒有做相關的研析跟推演?這就是我們為什麼每一年有備戰計畫,不要調各種可能行動全部放在裡面這也就我們平常部隊演訓的一個依據因為這裡面特別提到,他說\n849975\t871177\tidentification of warning sign of a potential blockade就是說一個有潛在的封鎖可能的徵兆,要有辦法identify我們有辦法嗎?比如說我們現在能不能告訴大家說這什麼樣的狀況底下我們看出來,這可能要對台灣進行封鎖\n873252\t892405\t我們平常都在研判的我們自己有沒有這個identification的list我們當然有各種備案當然有一些不能在這裡講但我要確認的就是你們到底有沒有我們跟委員報告,國際監獄對戰這麼多年要講沒有的話那真的笑話一則這個問題就是在於說,你要如何預防\n903112\t918783\t警示,可是面對這些警示你如何破警,你如何預防,讓它不要發生這部分有沒有相關的準備?應該也有吧,大盤推演都有在演之前考察都有去看\n920748\t937198\t好 那就是說這個NDA裡面特別提出來所以我在這邊要講的就是當他特別提出來的時候就代表這個恐怕也是未來我們要面對的一個重點所以請國防部好好準備好不好好 謝謝姜委員\n","txt":"請這個主席邀請部長邱委員好部長這個今年啊\n台灣的代表制的這個票選,大家選出缺字嘛那我看你有對這個自由做出回應說,你說國軍缺乏更好的場地訓練然後更好的這些裝備等等那我請教一下部長,缺場地這個部分你現在\n我覺得最缺的是哪一步?我沒有講缺場地,我缺的是缺乏我們訓練,我擔心我們訓練不足,我只怕這一個。所以是缺乏訓練?對,因為那天有這個字出來,我就去問,我沒有表達任何意見。\n我看到媒體寫說,你說缺更好的場地做訓練。我想說奇怪,這些我們該蓋的場地等等,立法院幾乎全部都給你預算,但是的確有一些延宕。\n對不對,你們在發包的時候,或者在做一些工程的這些施作的時候我們每年審查預算常常都會出現預算沒有執行,或執行率不佳嘛所以第一個,場地的部分我認為基本上國防部編列的預算,立法院幾乎都審議通過啦,都是支持的所以接下來是你們執行率的問題至於你提到說更好的訓練這一塊,我想這個\n也的確是一個大問題,但不管是場地、人或者是裝備,包括裝備的這部分其實大家也都很關心,之前大家認為說一些軍購的延宕雖然後來你們也修改了發架書,變更了這個交貨的期程不過這個變更是延後的,這也是一個事實\n那我現在要問的就是說,不管是F16V仿裝甲的飛彈,或者是建設的次增防空飛彈M1A2T的裝甲車,還有這個F16上面所用到的這些相關的我們說採購的裝備更改後的這些日期,會不會再變?\n不會再變因為這個已經更改過交貨的日期了但基本上最終止交貨的時間不會變最終止交貨不會變所以我現在所看到的不管是F-16V延到2025年的第四季然後仿專甲飛彈延到今年開始交運然後監射飛彈這邊延到2025\n甚至是M1A2T也是明年才開始交貨,這些不會再變了吧不會再變這個我要確認,因為基本上這都是預算沒有問題,都是交貨被延宕的部分再來一個其實如果要講缺,我認為最大國防部你要擔心的是缺人\n我沒有講這個缺人,因為我們這個持續招募一定要經常做,當然招募我知道你們也認真在招募,招募也在持續可是你現在最大的問題就是你的編制元額21.5萬,我講志願役的部分義務役當然很多人關心,明年1月開始,義務役恢復成一年的疫期的增兵制但志願役的部分,這恐怕是你們\n我認為這一塊不該被忽略,甚至應該要好好的去檢視跟檢討的因為21.5萬的編制元額,但是現在只有15.5萬這個是幾乎已經逼近七成就編線比,從過去的八成多一路掉掉,掉到現在七成二\n這個是一個蠻大的危機就算我們把這個純均值的拿出來看你純均值的19.4萬的編制但現在的原額是15.5萬那也才7乘979%也不到八成那更令人擔憂的這也是立法院預算中心所提出來的就是說第一線的戰鬥部隊編線比不到八成的問題\n那這個第一線的戰鬥部隊,你大概很難期待說用未來一年期的義務役去彌補吧,不太容易吧如果原本蔡總統所講的,義務役一年的兵役是以守備部隊為主,它並不是所謂第一線的主力戰鬥部隊\n那你要去彌補你現在這個缺額,那這個恐怕沒辦法做彌補而且我們現在所採購的這些新式的武器,你大概也很難用一般的EVE來做訓練跟操作你可能連訓練的時間都不夠,所以我說缺人的這個問題才是你要面對的問題\n到底原因是什麼,為什麼邊線比一直掉然後邊線比一直掉就算了你們現在還調高編制元額喔從21.5萬然後從112年開始逐次調整到現在是21.8萬所以已經不是21.5萬了所以如果我們用21.8萬來除的時候你現在的邊線比是更低的啊\n明年搞不好不到七成\n那這是代表要放棄志願役嗎?放棄募兵制嗎?部長不會調整吧?不會不會因為到後來反過來變成是義務役為主然後志願役為服務我跟委員花點時間跟文靜報告喔就是說剛剛講說的守備部隊沒有錯但我們當中有規劃很好喔有一些伏兵役的弟兄他有意願到主戰部隊去的喔他的專長要符合經過我們測考可以評鑑可是他就是一年啊\n沒有錯,所以我們一到主戰部隊以後,他不見得就投入主戰兵力因為主戰部隊裡面也有很多戰鬥支援、勤務支援單位這都可以算在裡面可是部長你要想,你現在馬上的落差21.8跟15.5你算一下差多少?差將近6萬\n差將近六萬然後你如果要期待說明年開始的一年期的義務役補到這個數字你要補多久因為你明年了不起讓你讓你有個八九千個一年期的義務役回來來當兵就已經不錯囉你原本預期是九千七百個嘛但你認為會有九千七百個如你所想嗎不見得啊很多因素有可能導致他怎麼樣他緩爭啊\n他緩爭是有可能的所以你要馬上彌補啊,我一直講這個gap你21.8跟你現在15.5然後你馬上要接裝這些新的武器這些新的武器不是只有說操作這些包括維護維修後勤各方面這個是一個大問題部長你們想好了沒\n這15萬我要跟委員報告,它還沒有包含這個維持原額喔在風扇裡面大概有19萬多啦好不好,我這跟...請上官...您剛講的分母就是自願役的人力對啊,自願役,我現在講的就是自願役的19萬4嘛那我們縣緣是15萬5沒有錯,這中間有個缺口這中間差了4萬對,大概邊縣比現在大概79.8嘛所以它基本上還是沒有達到\n以往我們都拿八成來看其實八成也是不夠啦所以我要提出來就是說你用什麼方式第一個留住現在的招募來的第二個要能夠找不到新的\n其實去年你們在宣布說恢復增兵,一年期增兵的時候,包括提高了EWE的待遇但我一直認為你們自願意待遇都沒有提啊,也沒有調啊當時候我也質問過部長嘛,那你們是講說我們就照這個行政院的人事相關的規定來辦理\n但是你們國防部自己有沒有想法說其實你的薪資待遇的誘因不足也是一個大因素這個比較之下其實是很現實的問題甚至我們到第一線去我記得有當召委的時候排了好幾次的考察\n有一些小兵私底下跑到我旁邊跟我講悄悄話他不敢跟你們講他說第一個他說委員我們常常都待命都沒辦法放假沒辦法回去陪小孩陪家人那就算了連什麼連津貼都沒有增加也就是說啦如果我們用加班費來比較的話連這個也沒有\n不管任何部隊啦,尤其在第一線這種戰備的部隊尤其前陣子,包括現在也一樣,兩岸關係也沒有說因為現在好像比較緩和,也沒有啦他們的出勤的狀況也都增加,但是他的待遇沒有提高,他的家籍補給都沒有增加\n這是這些基層士官兵,他不敢跟你們講的可是他們卻偷偷到我耳邊講,甚至有些直接寫陳情給我所以部長,薪資待遇是一個問題當然還有其他的相關的配套福利,我知道你們想要蓋好的房舍給他們住,我們都支持啊新安專案你們去蓋我們都支持啊可是薪資結構這一部分,你們有要調整嗎\n目前的規劃有嗎跟委員報告有關於薪資待遇的部分除了他的基本待遇是跟著軍公教橫屏的原則我們依行政院的政策指導行政院的政策指導有要調嗎沒有嘛那個就是跟著所有的軍公教一起另外我們還依據他的部隊的特性跟任務的屬性\n你知道那個是原本有戰鬥加級、會調整各種勤務跟專業加級我們這個是逐年有在做滾動式的檢討但是最近也沒有調啦我的意思是說明年EWE的大幅的調了但志願也都沒有調可是你看到你的邊線筆你們都不緊張嗎你不緊張我真的還替你們緊張\n為什麼 因為這種東西會產生很多的空窗期會銜接不上 會有大問題所以即便我們武器來了 新式裝備來了但是你就會發覺怎麼樣 你沒有人力可以去熟悉去操作這個是國防上很大的一個問題因為國防最後還是回到人啦我就舉例嘛 美國的NDAA2024年的NDAA 你知道它裡面\n它裡面直接寫軍人加薪增加預算總額這個NDA要求為美國軍人加薪5.2%沒有錯你說美國它是軍事大國可是呢\n他們也是一樣,他現在還在為軍人,職業軍人,這是職業軍人所以我今天在這邊特別提出來,就是我之前我也提過了啦但我覺得就是看到你們編憲筆之後,令人更加的擔心啦那最後最後,因為主席站起來了,我最後提出一個問題,就是說\n這個NDA裡面國防授權法,美國剛出爐的這個國防授權法這個基本上參眾兩院都已經有基本的一些共識了這當中也提到了很多關於對台的這一部分情報交換、軍事訓練合作那特別是軍事訓練合作這一塊他們特別特別的強調,我想請教一下部長\n目前我們主要都還是以陸軍為主陸軍為主,比較規模稍微大一點的海空軍的部分未來有沒有打算?一直都有我們工作一直在做的陸海空軍都有這部分的規模應該會持續的加大\n會持續的把它鞏固下去那在這個NDA裡面,這一次他的條文裡面,你們注意看他特別提到一個部分,我認為是值得注意的,他特別提到要求美國的國防部長還有他們的這個參謀聯席會議的主席,甚至是情報單位\n要deliver一個完整的報告,這個報告是關於什麼?任何可能被共軍怎麼樣封鎖的可能跟方式然後因應的這些方案等等的這一部分\n我們自己有沒有做相關的研析跟推演?這就是我們為什麼每一年有備戰計畫,不要調各種可能行動全部放在裡面這也就我們平常部隊演訓的一個依據因為這裡面特別提到,他說\nidentification of warning sign of a potential blockade就是說一個有潛在的封鎖可能的徵兆,要有辦法identify我們有辦法嗎?比如說我們現在能不能告訴大家說這什麼樣的狀況底下我們看出來,這可能要對台灣進行封鎖\n我們平常都在研判的我們自己有沒有這個identification的list我們當然有各種備案當然有一些不能在這裡講但我要確認的就是你們到底有沒有我們跟委員報告,國際監獄對戰這麼多年要講沒有的話那真的笑話一則這個問題就是在於說,你要如何預防\n警示,可是面對這些警示你如何破警,你如何預防,讓它不要發生這部分有沒有相關的準備?應該也有吧,大盤推演都有在演之前考察都有去看\n好 那就是說這個NDA裡面特別提出來所以我在這邊要講的就是當他特別提出來的時候就代表這個恐怕也是未來我們要面對的一個重點所以請國防部好好準備好不好好 謝謝姜委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.051 --> 00:04.555\n請這個主席邀請部長邱委員好部長這個今年啊\n\n00:20.438 --> 00:39.945\n台灣的代表制的這個票選,大家選出缺字嘛那我看你有對這個自由做出回應說,你說國軍缺乏更好的場地訓練然後更好的這些裝備等等那我請教一下部長,缺場地這個部分你現在\n\n00:41.065 --> 00:57.807\n我覺得最缺的是哪一步?我沒有講缺場地,我缺的是缺乏我們訓練,我擔心我們訓練不足,我只怕這一個。所以是缺乏訓練?對,因為那天有這個字出來,我就去問,我沒有表達任何意見。\n\n01:00.830 --> 01:16.156\n我看到媒體寫說,你說缺更好的場地做訓練。我想說奇怪,這些我們該蓋的場地等等,立法院幾乎全部都給你預算,但是的確有一些延宕。\n\n01:17.276 --> 01:43.347\n對不對,你們在發包的時候,或者在做一些工程的這些施作的時候我們每年審查預算常常都會出現預算沒有執行,或執行率不佳嘛所以第一個,場地的部分我認為基本上國防部編列的預算,立法院幾乎都審議通過啦,都是支持的所以接下來是你們執行率的問題至於你提到說更好的訓練這一塊,我想這個\n\n01:46.948 --> 02:08.820\n也的確是一個大問題,但不管是場地、人或者是裝備,包括裝備的這部分其實大家也都很關心,之前大家認為說一些軍購的延宕雖然後來你們也修改了發架書,變更了這個交貨的期程不過這個變更是延後的,這也是一個事實\n\n02:09.580 --> 02:27.811\n那我現在要問的就是說,不管是F16V仿裝甲的飛彈,或者是建設的次增防空飛彈M1A2T的裝甲車,還有這個F16上面所用到的這些相關的我們說採購的裝備更改後的這些日期,會不會再變?\n\n02:32.559 --> 02:56.236\n不會再變因為這個已經更改過交貨的日期了但基本上最終止交貨的時間不會變最終止交貨不會變所以我現在所看到的不管是F-16V延到2025年的第四季然後仿專甲飛彈延到今年開始交運然後監射飛彈這邊延到2025\n\n02:59.598 --> 03:18.425\n甚至是M1A2T也是明年才開始交貨,這些不會再變了吧不會再變這個我要確認,因為基本上這都是預算沒有問題,都是交貨被延宕的部分再來一個其實如果要講缺,我認為最大國防部你要擔心的是缺人\n\n03:20.733 --> 03:47.031\n我沒有講這個缺人,因為我們這個持續招募一定要經常做,當然招募我知道你們也認真在招募,招募也在持續可是你現在最大的問題就是你的編制元額21.5萬,我講志願役的部分義務役當然很多人關心,明年1月開始,義務役恢復成一年的疫期的增兵制但志願役的部分,這恐怕是你們\n\n03:48.152 --> 04:08.136\n我認為這一塊不該被忽略,甚至應該要好好的去檢視跟檢討的因為21.5萬的編制元額,但是現在只有15.5萬這個是幾乎已經逼近七成就編線比,從過去的八成多一路掉掉,掉到現在七成二\n\n04:10.230 --> 04:38.243\n這個是一個蠻大的危機就算我們把這個純均值的拿出來看你純均值的19.4萬的編制但現在的原額是15.5萬那也才7乘979%也不到八成那更令人擔憂的這也是立法院預算中心所提出來的就是說第一線的戰鬥部隊編線比不到八成的問題\n\n04:39.417 --> 04:57.986\n那這個第一線的戰鬥部隊,你大概很難期待說用未來一年期的義務役去彌補吧,不太容易吧如果原本蔡總統所講的,義務役一年的兵役是以守備部隊為主,它並不是所謂第一線的主力戰鬥部隊\n\n04:59.625 --> 05:20.094\n那你要去彌補你現在這個缺額,那這個恐怕沒辦法做彌補而且我們現在所採購的這些新式的武器,你大概也很難用一般的EVE來做訓練跟操作你可能連訓練的時間都不夠,所以我說缺人的這個問題才是你要面對的問題\n\n05:21.394 --> 05:31.600\n到底原因是什麼,為什麼邊線比一直掉然後邊線比一直掉就算了你們現在還調高編制元額喔從21.5萬然後從112年開始逐次調整到現在是21.8萬所以已經不是21.5萬了所以如果我們用21.8萬來除的時候你現在的邊線比是更低的啊\n\n05:50.112 --> 05:51.221\n明年搞不好不到七成\n\n05:52.116 --> 06:20.758\n那這是代表要放棄志願役嗎?放棄募兵制嗎?部長不會調整吧?不會不會因為到後來反過來變成是義務役為主然後志願役為服務我跟委員花點時間跟文靜報告喔就是說剛剛講說的守備部隊沒有錯但我們當中有規劃很好喔有一些伏兵役的弟兄他有意願到主戰部隊去的喔他的專長要符合經過我們測考可以評鑑可是他就是一年啊\n\n06:21.278 --> 06:46.186\n沒有錯,所以我們一到主戰部隊以後,他不見得就投入主戰兵力因為主戰部隊裡面也有很多戰鬥支援、勤務支援單位這都可以算在裡面可是部長你要想,你現在馬上的落差21.8跟15.5你算一下差多少?差將近6萬\n\n06:47.586 --> 07:15.088\n差將近六萬然後你如果要期待說明年開始的一年期的義務役補到這個數字你要補多久因為你明年了不起讓你讓你有個八九千個一年期的義務役回來來當兵就已經不錯囉你原本預期是九千七百個嘛但你認為會有九千七百個如你所想嗎不見得啊很多因素有可能導致他怎麼樣他緩爭啊\n\n07:17.832 --> 07:42.993\n他緩爭是有可能的所以你要馬上彌補啊,我一直講這個gap你21.8跟你現在15.5然後你馬上要接裝這些新的武器這些新的武器不是只有說操作這些包括維護維修後勤各方面這個是一個大問題部長你們想好了沒\n\n07:45.736 --> 08:09.475\n這15萬我要跟委員報告,它還沒有包含這個維持原額喔在風扇裡面大概有19萬多啦好不好,我這跟...請上官...您剛講的分母就是自願役的人力對啊,自願役,我現在講的就是自願役的19萬4嘛那我們縣緣是15萬5沒有錯,這中間有個缺口這中間差了4萬對,大概邊縣比現在大概79.8嘛所以它基本上還是沒有達到\n\n08:13.659 --> 08:27.573\n以往我們都拿八成來看其實八成也是不夠啦所以我要提出來就是說你用什麼方式第一個留住現在的招募來的第二個要能夠找不到新的\n\n08:29.238 --> 08:49.627\n其實去年你們在宣布說恢復增兵,一年期增兵的時候,包括提高了EWE的待遇但我一直認為你們自願意待遇都沒有提啊,也沒有調啊當時候我也質問過部長嘛,那你們是講說我們就照這個行政院的人事相關的規定來辦理\n\n08:52.669 --> 09:09.474\n但是你們國防部自己有沒有想法說其實你的薪資待遇的誘因不足也是一個大因素這個比較之下其實是很現實的問題甚至我們到第一線去我記得有當召委的時候排了好幾次的考察\n\n09:10.960 --> 09:31.708\n有一些小兵私底下跑到我旁邊跟我講悄悄話他不敢跟你們講他說第一個他說委員我們常常都待命都沒辦法放假沒辦法回去陪小孩陪家人那就算了連什麼連津貼都沒有增加也就是說啦如果我們用加班費來比較的話連這個也沒有\n\n09:34.399 --> 09:54.445\n不管任何部隊啦,尤其在第一線這種戰備的部隊尤其前陣子,包括現在也一樣,兩岸關係也沒有說因為現在好像比較緩和,也沒有啦他們的出勤的狀況也都增加,但是他的待遇沒有提高,他的家籍補給都沒有增加\n\n09:56.816 --> 10:21.706\n這是這些基層士官兵,他不敢跟你們講的可是他們卻偷偷到我耳邊講,甚至有些直接寫陳情給我所以部長,薪資待遇是一個問題當然還有其他的相關的配套福利,我知道你們想要蓋好的房舍給他們住,我們都支持啊新安專案你們去蓋我們都支持啊可是薪資結構這一部分,你們有要調整嗎\n\n10:23.955 --> 10:43.444\n目前的規劃有嗎跟委員報告有關於薪資待遇的部分除了他的基本待遇是跟著軍公教橫屏的原則我們依行政院的政策指導行政院的政策指導有要調嗎沒有嘛那個就是跟著所有的軍公教一起另外我們還依據他的部隊的特性跟任務的屬性\n\n10:44.184 --> 11:07.227\n你知道那個是原本有戰鬥加級、會調整各種勤務跟專業加級我們這個是逐年有在做滾動式的檢討但是最近也沒有調啦我的意思是說明年EWE的大幅的調了但志願也都沒有調可是你看到你的邊線筆你們都不緊張嗎你不緊張我真的還替你們緊張\n\n11:08.528 --> 11:33.391\n為什麼因為這種東西會產生很多的空窗期會銜接不上會有大問題所以即便我們武器來了新式裝備來了但是你就會發覺怎麼樣你沒有人力可以去熟悉去操作這個是國防上很大的一個問題因為國防最後還是回到人啦我就舉例嘛美國的NDAA2024年的NDAA你知道它裡面\n\n11:34.656 --> 11:42.823\n它裡面直接寫軍人加薪增加預算總額這個NDA要求為美國軍人加薪5.2%沒有錯你說美國它是軍事大國可是呢\n\n11:57.295 --> 12:17.505\n他們也是一樣,他現在還在為軍人,職業軍人,這是職業軍人所以我今天在這邊特別提出來,就是我之前我也提過了啦但我覺得就是看到你們編憲筆之後,令人更加的擔心啦那最後最後,因為主席站起來了,我最後提出一個問題,就是說\n\n12:20.186 --> 12:46.013\n這個NDA裡面國防授權法,美國剛出爐的這個國防授權法這個基本上參眾兩院都已經有基本的一些共識了這當中也提到了很多關於對台的這一部分情報交換、軍事訓練合作那特別是軍事訓練合作這一塊他們特別特別的強調,我想請教一下部長\n\n12:47.458 --> 13:04.675\n目前我們主要都還是以陸軍為主陸軍為主,比較規模稍微大一點的海空軍的部分未來有沒有打算?一直都有我們工作一直在做的陸海空軍都有這部分的規模應該會持續的加大\n\n13:11.010 --> 13:29.627\n會持續的把它鞏固下去那在這個NDA裡面,這一次他的條文裡面,你們注意看他特別提到一個部分,我認為是值得注意的,他特別提到要求美國的國防部長還有他們的這個參謀聯席會議的主席,甚至是情報單位\n\n13:31.209 --> 13:49.484\n要deliver一個完整的報告,這個報告是關於什麼?任何可能被共軍怎麼樣封鎖的可能跟方式然後因應的這些方案等等的這一部分\n\n13:50.988 --> 14:08.735\n我們自己有沒有做相關的研析跟推演?這就是我們為什麼每一年有備戰計畫,不要調各種可能行動全部放在裡面這也就我們平常部隊演訓的一個依據因為這裡面特別提到,他說\n\n14:09.975 --> 14:31.177\nidentificationofwarningsignofapotentialblockade就是說一個有潛在的封鎖可能的徵兆,要有辦法identify我們有辦法嗎?比如說我們現在能不能告訴大家說這什麼樣的狀況底下我們看出來,這可能要對台灣進行封鎖\n\n14:33.252 --> 14:52.405\n我們平常都在研判的我們自己有沒有這個identification的list我們當然有各種備案當然有一些不能在這裡講但我要確認的就是你們到底有沒有我們跟委員報告,國際監獄對戰這麼多年要講沒有的話那真的笑話一則這個問題就是在於說,你要如何預防\n\n15:03.112 --> 15:18.783\n警示,可是面對這些警示你如何破警,你如何預防,讓它不要發生這部分有沒有相關的準備?應該也有吧,大盤推演都有在演之前考察都有去看\n\n15:20.748 --> 15:37.198\n好那就是說這個NDA裡面特別提出來所以我在這邊要講的就是當他特別提出來的時候就代表這個恐怕也是未來我們要面對的一個重點所以請國防部好好準備好不好好謝謝姜委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.051,"end":4.555,"text":"請這個主席邀請部長邱委員好部長這個今年啊"},{"start":20.438,"end":39.945,"text":"台灣的代表制的這個票選,大家選出缺字嘛那我看你有對這個自由做出回應說,你說國軍缺乏更好的場地訓練然後更好的這些裝備等等那我請教一下部長,缺場地這個部分你現在"},{"start":41.065,"end":57.807,"text":"我覺得最缺的是哪一步?我沒有講缺場地,我缺的是缺乏我們訓練,我擔心我們訓練不足,我只怕這一個。所以是缺乏訓練?對,因為那天有這個字出來,我就去問,我沒有表達任何意見。"},{"start":60.83,"end":76.156,"text":"我看到媒體寫說,你說缺更好的場地做訓練。我想說奇怪,這些我們該蓋的場地等等,立法院幾乎全部都給你預算,但是的確有一些延宕。"},{"start":77.276,"end":103.347,"text":"對不對,你們在發包的時候,或者在做一些工程的這些施作的時候我們每年審查預算常常都會出現預算沒有執行,或執行率不佳嘛所以第一個,場地的部分我認為基本上國防部編列的預算,立法院幾乎都審議通過啦,都是支持的所以接下來是你們執行率的問題至於你提到說更好的訓練這一塊,我想這個"},{"start":106.948,"end":128.82,"text":"也的確是一個大問題,但不管是場地、人或者是裝備,包括裝備的這部分其實大家也都很關心,之前大家認為說一些軍購的延宕雖然後來你們也修改了發架書,變更了這個交貨的期程不過這個變更是延後的,這也是一個事實"},{"start":129.58,"end":147.811,"text":"那我現在要問的就是說,不管是F16V仿裝甲的飛彈,或者是建設的次增防空飛彈M1A2T的裝甲車,還有這個F16上面所用到的這些相關的我們說採購的裝備更改後的這些日期,會不會再變?"},{"start":152.559,"end":176.236,"text":"不會再變因為這個已經更改過交貨的日期了但基本上最終止交貨的時間不會變最終止交貨不會變所以我現在所看到的不管是F-16V延到2025年的第四季然後仿專甲飛彈延到今年開始交運然後監射飛彈這邊延到2025"},{"start":179.598,"end":198.425,"text":"甚至是M1A2T也是明年才開始交貨,這些不會再變了吧不會再變這個我要確認,因為基本上這都是預算沒有問題,都是交貨被延宕的部分再來一個其實如果要講缺,我認為最大國防部你要擔心的是缺人"},{"start":200.733,"end":227.031,"text":"我沒有講這個缺人,因為我們這個持續招募一定要經常做,當然招募我知道你們也認真在招募,招募也在持續可是你現在最大的問題就是你的編制元額21.5萬,我講志願役的部分義務役當然很多人關心,明年1月開始,義務役恢復成一年的疫期的增兵制但志願役的部分,這恐怕是你們"},{"start":228.152,"end":248.136,"text":"我認為這一塊不該被忽略,甚至應該要好好的去檢視跟檢討的因為21.5萬的編制元額,但是現在只有15.5萬這個是幾乎已經逼近七成就編線比,從過去的八成多一路掉掉,掉到現在七成二"},{"start":250.23,"end":278.243,"text":"這個是一個蠻大的危機就算我們把這個純均值的拿出來看你純均值的19.4萬的編制但現在的原額是15.5萬那也才7乘979%也不到八成那更令人擔憂的這也是立法院預算中心所提出來的就是說第一線的戰鬥部隊編線比不到八成的問題"},{"start":279.417,"end":297.986,"text":"那這個第一線的戰鬥部隊,你大概很難期待說用未來一年期的義務役去彌補吧,不太容易吧如果原本蔡總統所講的,義務役一年的兵役是以守備部隊為主,它並不是所謂第一線的主力戰鬥部隊"},{"start":299.625,"end":320.094,"text":"那你要去彌補你現在這個缺額,那這個恐怕沒辦法做彌補而且我們現在所採購的這些新式的武器,你大概也很難用一般的EVE來做訓練跟操作你可能連訓練的時間都不夠,所以我說缺人的這個問題才是你要面對的問題"},{"start":321.394,"end":331.6,"text":"到底原因是什麼,為什麼邊線比一直掉然後邊線比一直掉就算了你們現在還調高編制元額喔從21.5萬然後從112年開始逐次調整到現在是21.8萬所以已經不是21.5萬了所以如果我們用21.8萬來除的時候你現在的邊線比是更低的啊"},{"start":350.112,"end":351.221,"text":"明年搞不好不到七成"},{"start":352.116,"end":380.758,"text":"那這是代表要放棄志願役嗎?放棄募兵制嗎?部長不會調整吧?不會不會因為到後來反過來變成是義務役為主然後志願役為服務我跟委員花點時間跟文靜報告喔就是說剛剛講說的守備部隊沒有錯但我們當中有規劃很好喔有一些伏兵役的弟兄他有意願到主戰部隊去的喔他的專長要符合經過我們測考可以評鑑可是他就是一年啊"},{"start":381.278,"end":406.186,"text":"沒有錯,所以我們一到主戰部隊以後,他不見得就投入主戰兵力因為主戰部隊裡面也有很多戰鬥支援、勤務支援單位這都可以算在裡面可是部長你要想,你現在馬上的落差21.8跟15.5你算一下差多少?差將近6萬"},{"start":407.586,"end":435.088,"text":"差將近六萬然後你如果要期待說明年開始的一年期的義務役補到這個數字你要補多久因為你明年了不起讓你讓你有個八九千個一年期的義務役回來來當兵就已經不錯囉你原本預期是九千七百個嘛但你認為會有九千七百個如你所想嗎不見得啊很多因素有可能導致他怎麼樣他緩爭啊"},{"start":437.832,"end":462.993,"text":"他緩爭是有可能的所以你要馬上彌補啊,我一直講這個gap你21.8跟你現在15.5然後你馬上要接裝這些新的武器這些新的武器不是只有說操作這些包括維護維修後勤各方面這個是一個大問題部長你們想好了沒"},{"start":465.736,"end":489.475,"text":"這15萬我要跟委員報告,它還沒有包含這個維持原額喔在風扇裡面大概有19萬多啦好不好,我這跟...請上官...您剛講的分母就是自願役的人力對啊,自願役,我現在講的就是自願役的19萬4嘛那我們縣緣是15萬5沒有錯,這中間有個缺口這中間差了4萬對,大概邊縣比現在大概79.8嘛所以它基本上還是沒有達到"},{"start":493.659,"end":507.573,"text":"以往我們都拿八成來看其實八成也是不夠啦所以我要提出來就是說你用什麼方式第一個留住現在的招募來的第二個要能夠找不到新的"},{"start":509.238,"end":529.627,"text":"其實去年你們在宣布說恢復增兵,一年期增兵的時候,包括提高了EWE的待遇但我一直認為你們自願意待遇都沒有提啊,也沒有調啊當時候我也質問過部長嘛,那你們是講說我們就照這個行政院的人事相關的規定來辦理"},{"start":532.669,"end":549.474,"text":"但是你們國防部自己有沒有想法說其實你的薪資待遇的誘因不足也是一個大因素這個比較之下其實是很現實的問題甚至我們到第一線去我記得有當召委的時候排了好幾次的考察"},{"start":550.96,"end":571.708,"text":"有一些小兵私底下跑到我旁邊跟我講悄悄話他不敢跟你們講他說第一個他說委員我們常常都待命都沒辦法放假沒辦法回去陪小孩陪家人那就算了連什麼連津貼都沒有增加也就是說啦如果我們用加班費來比較的話連這個也沒有"},{"start":574.399,"end":594.445,"text":"不管任何部隊啦,尤其在第一線這種戰備的部隊尤其前陣子,包括現在也一樣,兩岸關係也沒有說因為現在好像比較緩和,也沒有啦他們的出勤的狀況也都增加,但是他的待遇沒有提高,他的家籍補給都沒有增加"},{"start":596.816,"end":621.706,"text":"這是這些基層士官兵,他不敢跟你們講的可是他們卻偷偷到我耳邊講,甚至有些直接寫陳情給我所以部長,薪資待遇是一個問題當然還有其他的相關的配套福利,我知道你們想要蓋好的房舍給他們住,我們都支持啊新安專案你們去蓋我們都支持啊可是薪資結構這一部分,你們有要調整嗎"},{"start":623.955,"end":643.444,"text":"目前的規劃有嗎跟委員報告有關於薪資待遇的部分除了他的基本待遇是跟著軍公教橫屏的原則我們依行政院的政策指導行政院的政策指導有要調嗎沒有嘛那個就是跟著所有的軍公教一起另外我們還依據他的部隊的特性跟任務的屬性"},{"start":644.184,"end":667.227,"text":"你知道那個是原本有戰鬥加級、會調整各種勤務跟專業加級我們這個是逐年有在做滾動式的檢討但是最近也沒有調啦我的意思是說明年EWE的大幅的調了但志願也都沒有調可是你看到你的邊線筆你們都不緊張嗎你不緊張我真的還替你們緊張"},{"start":668.528,"end":693.391,"text":"為什麼 因為這種東西會產生很多的空窗期會銜接不上 會有大問題所以即便我們武器來了 新式裝備來了但是你就會發覺怎麼樣 你沒有人力可以去熟悉去操作這個是國防上很大的一個問題因為國防最後還是回到人啦我就舉例嘛 美國的NDAA2024年的NDAA 你知道它裡面"},{"start":694.656,"end":702.823,"text":"它裡面直接寫軍人加薪增加預算總額這個NDA要求為美國軍人加薪5.2%沒有錯你說美國它是軍事大國可是呢"},{"start":717.295,"end":737.505,"text":"他們也是一樣,他現在還在為軍人,職業軍人,這是職業軍人所以我今天在這邊特別提出來,就是我之前我也提過了啦但我覺得就是看到你們編憲筆之後,令人更加的擔心啦那最後最後,因為主席站起來了,我最後提出一個問題,就是說"},{"start":740.186,"end":766.013,"text":"這個NDA裡面國防授權法,美國剛出爐的這個國防授權法這個基本上參眾兩院都已經有基本的一些共識了這當中也提到了很多關於對台的這一部分情報交換、軍事訓練合作那特別是軍事訓練合作這一塊他們特別特別的強調,我想請教一下部長"},{"start":767.458,"end":784.675,"text":"目前我們主要都還是以陸軍為主陸軍為主,比較規模稍微大一點的海空軍的部分未來有沒有打算?一直都有我們工作一直在做的陸海空軍都有這部分的規模應該會持續的加大"},{"start":791.01,"end":809.627,"text":"會持續的把它鞏固下去那在這個NDA裡面,這一次他的條文裡面,你們注意看他特別提到一個部分,我認為是值得注意的,他特別提到要求美國的國防部長還有他們的這個參謀聯席會議的主席,甚至是情報單位"},{"start":811.209,"end":829.484,"text":"要deliver一個完整的報告,這個報告是關於什麼?任何可能被共軍怎麼樣封鎖的可能跟方式然後因應的這些方案等等的這一部分"},{"start":830.988,"end":848.735,"text":"我們自己有沒有做相關的研析跟推演?這就是我們為什麼每一年有備戰計畫,不要調各種可能行動全部放在裡面這也就我們平常部隊演訓的一個依據因為這裡面特別提到,他說"},{"start":849.975,"end":871.177,"text":"identification of warning sign of a potential blockade就是說一個有潛在的封鎖可能的徵兆,要有辦法identify我們有辦法嗎?比如說我們現在能不能告訴大家說這什麼樣的狀況底下我們看出來,這可能要對台灣進行封鎖"},{"start":873.252,"end":892.405,"text":"我們平常都在研判的我們自己有沒有這個identification的list我們當然有各種備案當然有一些不能在這裡講但我要確認的就是你們到底有沒有我們跟委員報告,國際監獄對戰這麼多年要講沒有的話那真的笑話一則這個問題就是在於說,你要如何預防"},{"start":903.112,"end":918.783,"text":"警示,可是面對這些警示你如何破警,你如何預防,讓它不要發生這部分有沒有相關的準備?應該也有吧,大盤推演都有在演之前考察都有去看"},{"start":920.748,"end":937.198,"text":"好 那就是說這個NDA裡面特別提出來所以我在這邊要講的就是當他特別提出來的時候就代表這個恐怕也是未來我們要面對的一個重點所以請國防部好好準備好不好好 謝謝姜委員"}]}}}}