{"id":148967,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148967","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a7202993414f19f3c56faf94fc233f19f174e7c986728e607a0322826982371071214a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳以信","委員發言時間":"11:19:37 - 11:31:48","影片長度":"00:12:11","會議時間":"2023-12-11T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢。二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡適應等25人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。三、原住民族工作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-13"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":731,"end_time":"2023-12-11T11:31:48+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T11:19:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":668,"blocks":[["陳委員以信：（11時19分）謝謝召委，請中選會李主委備詢。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["陳委員以信：主委早。我想要針對臺南市現在的立法委員選舉第五選區，現在候選人是王家貞，他現在因為有一個之前的助理費案件，所以在緩刑當中，我現在要請問關於他登記參選立法委員的資格，中選會現在的認定是什麼？"],["李主任委員進勇：跟委員做個說明，有關於立法委員候選人資格的認定問題，我們會在這個月15號的委員會議進行認定。"],["陳委員以信：你對他這個案子有沒有瞭解啊？"],["李主任委員進勇：這個案子我是看媒體報導，有一些瞭解，但是真正……"],["陳委員以信：你不知道他這個案子可能有爭議，你們有可能會不受理他的登記，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：最後的結果必須要是15號的委員會來認定。"],["陳委員以信：我當然知道，我們現在就是要來討論這一個事情，為什麼？因為我們已經預先看到這個事情。"],["李主任委員進勇：大家討論的重點可能在公職人員選罷法第二十六條第九款的這個規定。"],["陳委員以信：對！"],["李主任委員進勇：我們就第二十六條第九款的規定，它是非常清楚的，也就是你犯了第二十六條第一款到第六款以外的罪，經過法院判決有期徒刑以上的刑確定了，還沒有執行、或者執行還沒有完、或者是在緩刑中、或者是行刑權時效消滅等等，這些種種的狀況也都是消極資格的情況。"],["陳委員以信：我知道這個修法，這個修法當然還有很多的疑義，這不是我們現在討論的重點。我現在要問的就是，這個修法是在5月的時候進行，王家貞當時案件的判決是在2月，所以他那時候聲請緩刑的時間點是2月，他怎麼會知道3個月之後，他的緩刑聲請會變成他不能夠參選的理由呢？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們有關於候選人資格的認定時間點就是在登記截止的時間，登記截止的時間也就是24號、到24號。"],["陳委員以信：不是，我是說2月王家貞他要選擇緩刑的時候，他怎麼會知道他如果選擇緩刑，3個月之後會因為修法而沒有辦法取得候選人的資格呢？如果他2月的時候選擇易科罰金就沒這回事啊！他當時信賴緩刑並不會有其他的後遺症，這個信賴為什麼到3個月之後不見了？然後現在中選會可能要以這個理由來剝奪他的參選資格。"],["李主任委員進勇：我想緩刑或者是易科罰金，這是法院的判決來做決定……"],["陳委員以信：對啊，他就是判決他可以易科罰金、也可以緩刑啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：倒不一定是被告……"],["陳委員以信：不是，你現在第九款只有針對緩刑、沒有針對易科罰金嘛，所以他2月的時候如果選擇易科罰金，他現在就可以選了。"],["李主任委員進勇：易科罰金也必須要執行完畢。"],["陳委員以信：易科罰金，錢繳了就執行完畢了嘛。"],["李主任委員進勇：對。"],["陳委員以信：對啊，所以他當時選擇易科罰金，他現在就可以選了啊！結果他當時選擇緩刑，然後你們現在就有可能按照新法第二十六條第九款讓他不能夠登記。"],["李主任委員進勇：我想不管任何的個案，就是說我們……"],["陳委員以信：什麼不管任何個案！我告訴你喔！來，我問你，刑法第二條是什麼概念？你自己學法律，不曉得刑法第二條是什麼概念？"],["李主任委員進勇：我知道、我知道。"],["陳委員以信：什麼概念？"],["李主任委員進勇：但是這個資格跟刑法那個……"],["陳委員以信：不是！刑法第二條就是罪刑法定主義嘛，如果今天新法跟舊法競合的時候，新法是比較嚴格，他在行為的時候不知道新法的話，那麼必須要怎麼樣？必須要從舊從輕嘛，這是最基本的原則！"],["李主任委員進勇：我想現在……"],["陳委員以信：可是他在2月的時候根本不知道5月會修法，他當時選擇緩刑，之後他怎麼知道他會因為這樣而被剝奪他的參政權？"],["李主任委員進勇：委員的這個意見……"],["陳委員以信：這沒有期待可能性啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：委員的這個意見我們予以尊重，但是因為這已經牽涉到個案了，而且認定的權限是在我們的委員會，所以我也沒有辦法……"],["陳委員以信：我現在就是要告訴你，你們的認定有可能會侵害他的權利嘛……"],["李主任委員進勇：我們一定……"],["陳委員以信：你們在做一個非常嚴重的處理。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們一定是根據法律的規定來做審查、嚴格地來審查。"],["陳委員以信：法律的規定現在就有問題！我現在就要開始講，去年是不是有這樣的案例、洪本成的案例？是不是在彰化有這樣的案例？"],["李主任委員進勇：是，洪本成……"],["陳委員以信：你記不記得？你記得嘛，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：有這個案子。"],["陳委員以信：當時是不是有提出行政假處分？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["陳委員以信：有沒有同意假處分？"],["李主任委員進勇：有……"],["陳委員以信：有同意嘛！來，這個當中為什麼會同意行政假處分？"],["李主任委員進勇：法院……"],["陳委員以信：第一個，它是屬於公法上面的爭議，為什麼？因為是當事人的參政權，跟你們是相對人，所以有公法上的爭議。第二個，對於當事人的參政權而言，如果他這次不能夠選，他的參政權是重大的損害、無法回復，而且無法以金錢彌補，對不對？然後他說，對於你這個相對人而言，如果你現在讓他選，到最後你們認為他不符合消極要件，你們可以怎麼做？你的救濟是什麼？"],["李主任委員進勇：如果法院有假處分的話，我們會遵照假處分的規定。"],["陳委員以信：我當然知道！我現在就是要告訴你，如果有假處分，你當然要聽，可是我們現在先看假處分的理由，你本身還有救濟管道，對不對？什麼是救濟管道？你不知道呀？"],["李主任委員進勇：誰的救濟管道？"],["陳委員以信：你的啦！如果現在給你行政假處分，他真的選了、選上了，你怎麼救濟？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們會斟酌案情，看有沒有抗告的必要。"],["陳委員以信：你一定會按照選罷法第二十九條提起當選無效之訴嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：在假處分還沒有確定之前，我們會斟酌他的理由，決定是不是要抗告。"],["陳委員以信：你當然要抗告，你被駁回嘛！你去年的抗告被最高行政法院駁回，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：誰的？"],["陳委員以信：你的抗告啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：洪本成的案件嗎？"],["陳委員以信：對啊！你被駁回對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：本案最後他敗訴了。"],["陳委員以信：那是什麼時候？"],["李主任委員進勇：本案最後……"],["陳委員以信：來，這個就是關鍵了，去年你抗告被駁回，所以他可以選，選完之後你今年又提出選舉無效訴訟，對不對？對不對嘛？"],["李主任委員進勇：有選舉無效訴訟。"],["陳委員以信：對嘛！你今年才提嘛！提了以後的結果是另一回事。但是重點來了，重點在利益衡平之下，你現在如果不讓他選，他的權益就是立即重大而且不可回復的侵害，而你！你們相對人是有救濟權的耶！你們有救濟權，所以為什麼高等行政法院跟最高行政法院統統都駁回你們的聲請？而你現在、我們事件發生之初，我就告訴你有這種狀況，你還執意而行，連刑法都不可以從新從重……"],["李主任委員進勇：我現在還沒有執意而行，因為那個必須要15號的委員會來做決定。"],["陳委員以信：如果15號判定讓他可以繼續選，我就跟你說對不起，我就跟你說對不起。"],["李主任委員進勇：這不是我一個人的決定……"],["陳委員以信：所以我就跟你講嘛！我們現在就可以預見15號的狀況，你們極有可能會不受理他的登記嘛！因為你們認為新法已經把他的資格取消掉，而事實上他在新法資格取消的時候，早在3個月之前他根本不知道他沒有期待的可能性，他的信賴利益呢？完全受到侵害！他根本不會知道3個月之後要修法嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：我們是根據現行的法律規定來進行審查的工作。"],["陳委員以信：所以你現在看到現行法律即將要侵害到他不可回復、金錢無法補償的參政權的時候，你們兩手一攤，什麼都不做嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：不是，如果當事人有其他救濟管道的話，我們也尊重……"],["陳委員以信：我們現在就在救濟啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：我們也尊重。"],["陳委員以信：我告訴你，現在這個案件已經發生了，你們中選會仍然可以在15號之前做出什麼樣的一個事情，但是我要告訴你……"],["李主任委員進勇：15號之前什麼都不能做，要等15號……"],["陳委員以信：你看看，你剛剛只是不願意告訴我你的結果，實際上你的結果已經不言可喻了嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：15號大家開會、委員會做決議了，我們才會有一個結果出來。"],["陳委員以信：我現在要求你們，你應該要讓委員會的委員知道這個案例，為什麼？因為你們的權力是不對等的，你現在一旦剝奪了他的參政權，事實上他當時沒有其他的可能性，他根本沒有辦法預見3個月之後他選擇緩刑這件事情會被取消參選資格。再來，你現在身為中選會主委，你是有救濟管道的，你的救濟管道就是之後你可以提出選舉無效訴訟，而這個是可以回復的，但對他而言，你現在不讓他登記，他就沒有了，而且最高行政法院的判決裡面講了一個很重要的原則是什麼？即民主原則，也就是說王家貞自己本身有權參政，人民有權利選擇他，這個叫選舉權，我們有權利選擇他，結果人民選擇王家貞的權利被你中選會剝奪了，而剝奪的理由……"],["李主任委員進勇：不是被我剝奪了。"],["陳委員以信：你在認定上面，基本上在認定上是有問題的，因為這個法修得太快！"],["李主任委員進勇：這個修法在今年6月才經過立法院三讀通過……"],["陳委員以信：那我問你，2月的時候他選擇緩刑的時候……"],["李主任委員進勇：是立法院通過的法律、我們根據大院通過的法律來執行……"],["陳委員以信：我問你，2月的時候他怎麼會知道他選擇緩刑會被剝奪參政權？為什麼？你知不知道4個月以後你會不會下臺？"],["李主任委員進勇：這在立法的過程裡面應該都會有所考量，所以我們……"],["陳委員以信：你不用去考慮立法的過程，我現在要告訴你，你們現在即將要對撞，即將就要發生，這個禮拜就要發生，你們中選會就要做出一個比刑法第二條罪刑法定主義還要嚴格的判斷，從後去剝奪一個人的參政權，參政權是憲法的基本人權，你們中選會就會成為剝奪憲法基本人權的一個幫兇。我現在就要告訴你，現在最高行政法院也好，高等行政法院也好，去年所有的判決都已經講出這樣的原則，更何況你現在身為一個相對人，你有救濟的管道，你憑什麼在之前就不讓他選？"],["李主任委員進勇：如果有法院確定的裁判，我們都會尊重，都會按照確定的裁判來執行。"],["陳委員以信：當然，今天如果有行政假處分的話就這麼做，我現在是希望你們在事前就能夠讓大家知道有這樣的一個案例並充分的討論。"],["李主任委員進勇：事前我沒有辦法，事前我只能夠根據法律規定是怎麼樣，我照這樣來回答委員的質詢。"],["陳委員以信：我希望中選會的委員在開會的時候能充分知道這個案件，做充分的討論！"],["李主任委員進勇：有利、不利的，我們都會予以考量。"],["陳委員以信：這個案件其實是一個……"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有預設立場。"],["陳委員以信：我們今天論辯的這個過程，未來都有可能會進入到憲法法院、憲法訴訟法裡面來進行這樣的討論，為什麼？因為這個法從現在個人的層次，未來如果對於當事人的傷害是確定的話，當事人也不排除會一路走到憲法解釋的層級。"],["李主任委員進勇：是，我們都尊重。"],["陳委員以信：所以我現在要告訴你，中選會身為主管機關，你有可能就是這樣一個可以說是扼殺參政權的劊子手……"],["李主任委員進勇：這個責任我們負擔不起，我們依法執行……"],["陳委員以信：你就是執行人啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：我們依法執行，不是我們來扼殺他。"],["陳委員以信：你依法執行，但是就會扼殺了這個參政權，我現在要讓你知道，我現在要留下這個紀錄，讓你知道未來一旦進入憲法訴訟的時候，必須要在這個地方來思考如何保障基本人權，這才是我們最主要的目的。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們尊重當事人的權利主張，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝主委、謝謝陳以信委員。接下來請黃世杰委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-13","speakers":["游毓蘭","賴品妤","陳玉珍","張宏陸","王美惠","陳以信","黃世杰","鄭天財Sra 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0.856}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 726.139, \"end\": 726.66, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"尊\", \"start\": 726.66, \"end\": 726.82, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 726.82, \"end\": 727.181, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 727.181, \"end\": 727.301, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 727.301, \"end\": 727.441, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 727.441, \"end\": 727.722, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"利\", \"start\": 727.722, \"end\": 727.862, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 727.862, \"end\": 728.002, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"張\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 728.002, \"end\": 728.142, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 728.142, \"end\": 728.162, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,060 --> 00:00:08,387\n謝謝昭偉是不是請中選會李主委備詢請李主委\n\n2\n00:00:19,594 --> 00:00:39,404\n主委早我想要針對台南市現在的立法委員選舉第5選區現在候選人是王家珍那他因為現在有一個之前的助理費的案件所以在緩刑當中我現在要問他現在針對他立法委員登記的參選資格中選會現在的認定是什麼\n\n3\n00:00:44,120 --> 00:01:03,035\n跟委員做個說明有關於立法委員候選人資格的認定的問題我們會在這個月15號的委員會議來進行你對他這個案子有沒有了解這個案子我是看媒體報導有一些了解你不知道他這個案子現在可能有爭議你們有可能會\n\n4\n00:01:04,796 --> 00:01:23,695\n你們有可能會不受理他的登記對不對最後的結果必須要是15號的委員會我當然知道我們現在就是要來討論這個事情為什麼因為我們已經預先看到這個事情大家討論的重點可能在公職人員選罷法第26條第9款\n\n5\n00:01:25,697 --> 00:01:26,378\n法院判決有期徒刑以上的刑確定\n\n6\n00:01:42,874 --> 00:02:07,960\n還沒有執行或者執行還沒有完或者是在緩刑中或者是行刑權施加消滅等等這種種的狀況也都是消極資格的情況我知道這個修法這個修法當然還有很多的疑義我們不是現在討論的重點我現在要問的就是說這個修法是在5月的時候進行是\n\n7\n00:02:08,260 --> 00:02:23,147\n那王家珍他那個時候案件的判決是在2月所以他那個時候申請要緩刑時間點是2月他怎麼會知道3個月之後他的緩刑的申請會變成他不能夠參選的理由呢\n\n8\n00:02:24,910 --> 00:02:38,878\n我們有關於候選人資格的認定的時間點就是在登記截止的時間登記截止的時候也就是24號到24號不是我是說2月的時候王家珍他要選擇\n\n9\n00:02:41,399 --> 00:03:06,450\n這個緩刑的時候他怎麼會知道他如果選擇緩刑他三個月之後會因為修法然後他沒有辦法取得這個候選人的資格呢如果他當時二月之後選擇一顆髮金就沒這回事啊他當時信賴緩刑並沒有其他的後遺症這個信賴為什麼到三個月之後不見了然後現在中選會要對他來可能要以這個理由來剝奪他的參選資格呢\n\n10\n00:03:08,371 --> 00:03:20,458\n我想這個緩刑或者是一顆罰金這是法院的判決來做決定他就是判他可以一顆罰金也可以緩刑啊到不一定是這個候選不是你現在第9款只有針對緩刑沒有針對一顆罰金嘛\n\n11\n00:03:23,900 --> 00:03:50,920\n所以他二月的時候他就選擇一顆髮金他現在就可以選了啊一顆髮金也必須要執行完畢一顆髮金前腳的就執行完畢了嗎對啊所以他當時選擇一顆髮金他就可以現在就可以選了啊結果他當時選擇緩刑然後你們現在就有可能按照新法26條第9款然後讓他不能夠登記啊我想不管任何的個案就是說我們什麼不管任何個案我告訴你來我問你新法第二條是什麼概念\n\n12\n00:03:53,559 --> 00:04:10,847\n你自己學法律不曉得刑法第二條是什麼概念刑法第二條就是罪行法定主義嘛就是要從輕從如果今天新法跟舊法競合的時候新法是比較嚴格他在行為的時候不知道新法的話那麼必須要怎麼樣必須要從舊從輕嘛\n\n13\n00:04:12,848 --> 00:04:37,394\n這最基本的原則可是現在他在二月的時候他根本不知道五月會修法他當時選擇這個緩刑根本就不代表說他之後他怎麼會知道他會因為這樣而被剝奪他的參政權委員的這個意見沒有期待可能性啊委員的這個意見我們予以尊重但是就個案這因為已經牽涉到個案了而且認定的權限是在我們的委員會\n\n14\n00:04:38,594 --> 00:04:55,010\n我現在就是要告訴你你們的認定有可能會侵害他的一個權利嘛你會再做一個非常嚴重的一個處理法法律的規定現在就有問題我現在就要開始去年是不是有這樣的案例紅本城的案例是不是在彰化有這樣的案例\n\n15\n00:04:56,251 --> 00:05:20,492\n你記不記得你記得嘛對不對當時是不是有提出行政假處分是有沒有同意假處分有同意嘛來這個當中為什麼會同意行政假處分第一個它是屬於公法上面的爭議為什麼因為是當事人的參政權跟你們是相對人所以有公法上的爭議第二個對於當事人的參政權而言如果他這次不能夠選他的\n\n16\n00:05:22,652 --> 00:05:50,658\n參政權是重大的損害無法回復而且無法以金錢彌補對不對然後他說對於你這個相對人而言如果你現在讓他選他到最後如果你們認為他不符合消極要件你們可以怎麼做你的究竟是什麼如果法院有假處分的話我們會遵照假我當然知道你我現在就是要告訴你說你如果有假處分當然要聽我可是我們現在是看假處分的理由你本身還有救濟管道對不對什麼是救濟管道\n\n17\n00:05:52,281 --> 00:05:53,582\n你去年的抗告被稅高行政法院駁回對不對\n\n18\n00:06:20,138 --> 00:06:34,959\n誰的你的抗告啦洪本成的案件對洪本成的案件對啊你被駁回對不對本案最後他敗訴啦那是什麼時候本案最後來這個就是關鍵了去年你抗告被駁回所以他可以選選完之後你今年又提出選舉無效訴訟對不對\n\n19\n00:06:37,474 --> 00:06:53,547\n有選舉無瑕事兆對嘛你今年才提嘛提了以後結果是另一回事但是重點來了重點在利益橫平之下你如果現在不讓他選他的權益就是利己而重大而且不可毀損的回復的親愛而你你們相對人是有救濟權的\n\n20\n00:06:54,895 --> 00:07:11,389\n你人有救濟權耶所以為什麼最高等行政法院跟最高行政法院通通都駁回你們的申請而你現在我們事件發生之初我就告訴你這種狀況你還執意而行連刑法都不可以重就重新重奏因為這個必須要15號的委員會來做這個如果你今天15號判定讓他可以繼續選我就跟你說對不起\n\n21\n00:07:19,235 --> 00:07:42,225\n我就跟你說對不起所以嘛我就跟你講我們現在這個預見15號的狀況你們極有可能會不受理他的登記嘛因為你們認為舊法清法已經把他的資格取消掉而事實上他在這個新法資格取消到的這個時候他早在三個月之前他根本不知道他沒有期待可能性他的信賴利益呢完全受到侵害他根本不會知道三個月之後要修法嘛\n\n22\n00:07:43,072 --> 00:08:05,899\n我們是根據現行的法律的規定來進行審查的所以你現在看到你們現行法律要即將侵害到他不可回復金錢無法補償的參政權的時候你們兩手一攤什麼都不做嗎不是如果當事人他有其他的救濟的管道的話我們現在就在救濟啊我們也尊重我告訴你現在這個案件已經發生了\n\n23\n00:08:06,859 --> 00:08:34,242\n你們現在中選會仍然可以在這個15號之前做出什麼樣的一個事情但是我要告訴你15號之前什麼都不能做所以你看看你剛剛只是不願意告訴我你的結果事實上你的結果已經不言可喻了嘛15號大家開會委員會做決議了我們才有一個結果出來我現在要求你們就是說你應該要讓委員會的委員知道這個案例為什麼因為你們的權利是不對等的\n\n24\n00:08:35,083 --> 00:09:01,868\n你一旦現在剝奪了他的這個選擇權他的參政權事實上他當時沒有其他的可能性他根本沒有辦法預見三個月之後他選擇緩行這件事情會被取消他的參選資格好再來你現在身為中選會你是有救濟管道的你的救濟管道就是之後你可以有選舉有效的訴訟的提出而這個是可以回復的對他而言你現在不讓他登記\n\n25\n00:09:02,748 --> 00:09:28,708\n他就沒有了而且其實在這個最高行政法院的判決裡面講了很重要的一個原則是什麼還有民主原則也就是說王家珍自己本身有權參政人民有權利選擇他這個叫選舉權我們有權利選擇他結果人民選擇王家珍的權利是被你中選會剝奪剝奪的理由不是被我剝奪了你在認定上面基本上認定上面是有問題因為這個法修得太快\n\n26\n00:09:29,268 --> 00:09:45,576\n這個修法在今年的6月才經過立法院單獨通過那我問你2月的時候他怎麼會知道他選擇反行的時候是立法院通過的法律我們根據大院通過的法律來執行我問你2月的時候他怎麼會知道他選擇反行他會被剝奪參政權為什麼\n\n27\n00:09:47,287 --> 00:10:04,290\n你是不是要四個月以後你會不會下台這個在立法的過程裡面應該都會有所考量你不用去考慮立法的過程我現在要告訴你說你們現在即將要對撞即將就要發生這個禮拜就要發生你們中選會就要做出一個比刑法第二條\n\n28\n00:10:05,251 --> 00:10:30,082\n最新法定主義還要嚴格的這樣一個判斷從後去剝奪一個人的參政權參政權是憲法的基本人權你們中選會就會成為剝奪憲法基本人權的一個幫兇我現在就要告訴你現在最高行政法院也好高等行政法院也好去年的所有的一個判決還有都已經講出這樣的一個原則更何況你現在身為一個相對人你有救濟的管道你憑什麼在之前就不讓他選\n\n29\n00:10:30,862 --> 00:10:59,862\n如果有法院的確定的裁判我們都會尊重都會按照確定裁判來執行當然今天如果有行政假處分的話就會這麼做我現在是希望你們能夠在事前就能夠讓大家知道有這樣的一個案例充分的討論事前我沒有辦法事前我只能夠根據這個法律規定是怎麼樣我照這樣來回答我希望讓中選會的委員在開會的時候能夠充分知道這個案件做充分的討論有利不利的我們都會予以考量\n\n30\n00:11:01,387 --> 00:11:28,555\n這個案件沒有預設立場這個我們今天是有論辯這個過程未來都有可能會進入到憲法法院來憲法訴訟法裡面來進行這樣的一個討論為什麼因為這個法從現在個人的層次如果一旦未來如果說這個對於傷害人當事人的傷害是確定的話當事人也不排除一路會走到憲法這個解釋的程序\n\n31\n00:11:29,316 --> 00:11:41,890\n政績所以我現在要告訴你現在你身為中選會的一個主管機關你有可能就是這樣的一個可以說是扼殺參政權的一個筷子手這個責任我們負擔不起我們依法執行不是我們來扼殺他依法執行但是就會扼殺了\n\n32\n00:11:50,439 --> 00:12:08,162\n二殺的參政權我現在要留下這個紀錄讓你知道未來我們一旦進入到憲法訴訟的時候我們必須要在這個地方來思考如何保障基本人權這才是我們最大的目的我們尊重當事人的權利主張好謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6060\t8387\t謝謝昭偉是不是請中選會李主委備詢請李主委\n19594\t39404\t主委早我想要針對台南市現在的立法委員選舉第5選區現在候選人是王家珍那他因為現在有一個之前的助理費的案件所以在緩刑當中我現在要問他現在針對他立法委員登記的參選資格中選會現在的認定是什麼\n44120\t63035\t跟委員做個說明有關於立法委員候選人資格的認定的問題我們會在這個月15號的委員會議來進行你對他這個案子有沒有了解這個案子我是看媒體報導有一些了解你不知道他這個案子現在可能有爭議你們有可能會\n64796\t83695\t你們有可能會不受理他的登記對不對最後的結果必須要是15號的委員會我當然知道我們現在就是要來討論這個事情為什麼因為我們已經預先看到這個事情大家討論的重點可能在公職人員選罷法第26條第9款\n85697\t86378\t法院判決有期徒刑以上的刑確定\n102874\t127960\t還沒有執行或者執行還沒有完或者是在緩刑中或者是行刑權施加消滅等等這種種的狀況也都是消極資格的情況我知道這個修法這個修法當然還有很多的疑義我們不是現在討論的重點我現在要問的就是說這個修法是在5月的時候進行是\n128260\t143147\t那王家珍他那個時候案件的判決是在2月所以他那個時候申請要緩刑時間點是2月他怎麼會知道3個月之後他的緩刑的申請會變成他不能夠參選的理由呢\n144910\t158878\t我們有關於候選人資格的認定的時間點就是在登記截止的時間登記截止的時候也就是24號到24號不是我是說2月的時候王家珍他要選擇\n161399\t186450\t這個緩刑的時候他怎麼會知道他如果選擇緩刑他三個月之後會因為修法然後他沒有辦法取得這個候選人的資格呢如果他當時二月之後選擇一顆髮金就沒這回事啊他當時信賴緩刑並沒有其他的後遺症這個信賴為什麼到三個月之後不見了然後現在中選會要對他來可能要以這個理由來剝奪他的參選資格呢\n188371\t200458\t我想這個緩刑或者是一顆罰金這是法院的判決來做決定他就是判他可以一顆罰金也可以緩刑啊到不一定是這個候選不是你現在第9款只有針對緩刑沒有針對一顆罰金嘛\n203900\t230920\t所以他二月的時候他就選擇一顆髮金他現在就可以選了啊一顆髮金也必須要執行完畢一顆髮金前腳的就執行完畢了嗎對啊所以他當時選擇一顆髮金他就可以現在就可以選了啊結果他當時選擇緩刑然後你們現在就有可能按照新法26條第9款然後讓他不能夠登記啊我想不管任何的個案就是說我們什麼不管任何個案我告訴你來我問你新法第二條是什麼概念\n233559\t250847\t你自己學法律不曉得刑法第二條是什麼概念刑法第二條就是罪行法定主義嘛就是要從輕從如果今天新法跟舊法競合的時候新法是比較嚴格他在行為的時候不知道新法的話那麼必須要怎麼樣必須要從舊從輕嘛\n252848\t277394\t這最基本的原則可是現在他在二月的時候他根本不知道五月會修法他當時選擇這個緩刑根本就不代表說他之後他怎麼會知道他會因為這樣而被剝奪他的參政權委員的這個意見沒有期待可能性啊委員的這個意見我們予以尊重但是就個案這因為已經牽涉到個案了而且認定的權限是在我們的委員會\n278594\t295010\t我現在就是要告訴你你們的認定有可能會侵害他的一個權利嘛你會再做一個非常嚴重的一個處理法法律的規定現在就有問題我現在就要開始去年是不是有這樣的案例紅本城的案例是不是在彰化有這樣的案例\n296251\t320492\t你記不記得你記得嘛對不對當時是不是有提出行政假處分是有沒有同意假處分有同意嘛來這個當中為什麼會同意行政假處分第一個它是屬於公法上面的爭議為什麼因為是當事人的參政權跟你們是相對人所以有公法上的爭議第二個對於當事人的參政權而言如果他這次不能夠選他的\n322652\t350658\t參政權是重大的損害無法回復而且無法以金錢彌補對不對然後他說對於你這個相對人而言如果你現在讓他選他到最後如果你們認為他不符合消極要件你們可以怎麼做你的究竟是什麼如果法院有假處分的話我們會遵照假我當然知道你我現在就是要告訴你說你如果有假處分當然要聽我可是我們現在是看假處分的理由你本身還有救濟管道對不對什麼是救濟管道\n352281\t353582\t你去年的抗告被稅高行政法院駁回對不對\n380138\t394959\t誰的你的抗告啦洪本成的案件對洪本成的案件對啊你被駁回對不對本案最後他敗訴啦那是什麼時候本案最後來這個就是關鍵了去年你抗告被駁回所以他可以選選完之後你今年又提出選舉無效訴訟對不對\n397474\t413547\t有選舉無瑕事兆對嘛你今年才提嘛提了以後結果是另一回事但是重點來了重點在利益橫平之下你如果現在不讓他選他的權益就是利己而重大而且不可毀損的回復的親愛而你你們相對人是有救濟權的\n414895\t431389\t你人有救濟權耶所以為什麼最高等行政法院跟最高行政法院通通都駁回你們的申請而你現在我們事件發生之初我就告訴你這種狀況你還執意而行連刑法都不可以重就重新重奏因為這個必須要15號的委員會來做這個如果你今天15號判定讓他可以繼續選我就跟你說對不起\n439235\t462225\t我就跟你說對不起所以嘛我就跟你講我們現在這個預見15號的狀況你們極有可能會不受理他的登記嘛因為你們認為舊法清法已經把他的資格取消掉而事實上他在這個新法資格取消到的這個時候他早在三個月之前他根本不知道他沒有期待可能性他的信賴利益呢完全受到侵害他根本不會知道三個月之後要修法嘛\n463072\t485899\t我們是根據現行的法律的規定來進行審查的所以你現在看到你們現行法律要即將侵害到他不可回復金錢無法補償的參政權的時候你們兩手一攤什麼都不做嗎不是 如果當事人他有其他的救濟的管道的話我們現在就在救濟啊我們也尊重我告訴你現在這個案件已經發生了\n486859\t514242\t你們現在中選會仍然可以在這個15號之前做出什麼樣的一個事情但是我要告訴你15號之前什麼都不能做所以你看看你剛剛只是不願意告訴我你的結果事實上你的結果已經不言可喻了嘛15號大家開會委員會做決議了我們才有一個結果出來我現在要求你們就是說你應該要讓委員會的委員知道這個案例為什麼因為你們的權利是不對等的\n515083\t541868\t你一旦現在剝奪了他的這個選擇權他的參政權事實上他當時沒有其他的可能性他根本沒有辦法預見三個月之後他選擇緩行這件事情會被取消他的參選資格好再來你現在身為中選會你是有救濟管道的你的救濟管道就是之後你可以有選舉有效的訴訟的提出而這個是可以回復的對他而言你現在不讓他登記\n542748\t568708\t他就沒有了而且其實在這個最高行政法院的判決裡面講了很重要的一個原則是什麼還有民主原則也就是說王家珍自己本身有權參政人民有權利選擇他這個叫選舉權我們有權利選擇他結果人民選擇王家珍的權利是被你中選會剝奪剝奪的理由不是被我剝奪了你在認定上面基本上認定上面是有問題因為這個法修得太快\n569268\t585576\t這個修法在今年的6月才經過立法院單獨通過那我問你2月的時候他怎麼會知道他選擇反行的時候是立法院通過的法律我們根據大院通過的法律來執行我問你2月的時候他怎麼會知道他選擇反行他會被剝奪參政權為什麼\n587287\t604290\t你是不是要四個月以後你會不會下台這個在立法的過程裡面應該都會有所考量你不用去考慮立法的過程我現在要告訴你說你們現在即將要對撞即將就要發生這個禮拜就要發生你們中選會就要做出一個比刑法第二條\n605251\t630082\t最新法定主義還要嚴格的這樣一個判斷從後去剝奪一個人的參政權參政權是憲法的基本人權你們中選會就會成為剝奪憲法基本人權的一個幫兇我現在就要告訴你現在最高行政法院也好高等行政法院也好去年的所有的一個判決還有都已經講出這樣的一個原則更何況你現在身為一個相對人你有救濟的管道你憑什麼在之前就不讓他選\n630862\t659862\t如果有法院的確定的裁判我們都會尊重都會按照確定裁判來執行當然今天如果有行政假處分的話就會這麼做我現在是希望你們能夠在事前就能夠讓大家知道有這樣的一個案例充分的討論事前我沒有辦法事前我只能夠根據這個法律規定是怎麼樣我照這樣來回答我希望讓中選會的委員在開會的時候能夠充分知道這個案件做充分的討論有利不利的我們都會予以考量\n661387\t688555\t這個案件沒有預設立場這個我們今天是有論辯這個過程未來都有可能會進入到憲法法院來憲法訴訟法裡面來進行這樣的一個討論為什麼因為這個法從現在個人的層次如果一旦未來如果說這個對於傷害人當事人的傷害是確定的話當事人也不排除一路會走到憲法這個解釋的程序\n689316\t701890\t政績所以我現在要告訴你現在你身為中選會的一個主管機關你有可能就是這樣的一個可以說是扼殺參政權的一個筷子手這個責任我們負擔不起我們依法執行不是我們來扼殺他依法執行但是就會扼殺了\n710439\t728162\t二殺的參政權我現在要留下這個紀錄讓你知道未來我們一旦進入到憲法訴訟的時候我們必須要在這個地方來思考如何保障基本人權這才是我們最大的目的我們尊重當事人的權利主張好 謝謝委員\n","txt":"謝謝昭偉是不是請中選會李主委備詢請李主委\n主委早我想要針對台南市現在的立法委員選舉第5選區現在候選人是王家珍那他因為現在有一個之前的助理費的案件所以在緩刑當中我現在要問他現在針對他立法委員登記的參選資格中選會現在的認定是什麼\n跟委員做個說明有關於立法委員候選人資格的認定的問題我們會在這個月15號的委員會議來進行你對他這個案子有沒有了解這個案子我是看媒體報導有一些了解你不知道他這個案子現在可能有爭議你們有可能會\n你們有可能會不受理他的登記對不對最後的結果必須要是15號的委員會我當然知道我們現在就是要來討論這個事情為什麼因為我們已經預先看到這個事情大家討論的重點可能在公職人員選罷法第26條第9款\n法院判決有期徒刑以上的刑確定\n還沒有執行或者執行還沒有完或者是在緩刑中或者是行刑權施加消滅等等這種種的狀況也都是消極資格的情況我知道這個修法這個修法當然還有很多的疑義我們不是現在討論的重點我現在要問的就是說這個修法是在5月的時候進行是\n那王家珍他那個時候案件的判決是在2月所以他那個時候申請要緩刑時間點是2月他怎麼會知道3個月之後他的緩刑的申請會變成他不能夠參選的理由呢\n我們有關於候選人資格的認定的時間點就是在登記截止的時間登記截止的時候也就是24號到24號不是我是說2月的時候王家珍他要選擇\n這個緩刑的時候他怎麼會知道他如果選擇緩刑他三個月之後會因為修法然後他沒有辦法取得這個候選人的資格呢如果他當時二月之後選擇一顆髮金就沒這回事啊他當時信賴緩刑並沒有其他的後遺症這個信賴為什麼到三個月之後不見了然後現在中選會要對他來可能要以這個理由來剝奪他的參選資格呢\n我想這個緩刑或者是一顆罰金這是法院的判決來做決定他就是判他可以一顆罰金也可以緩刑啊到不一定是這個候選不是你現在第9款只有針對緩刑沒有針對一顆罰金嘛\n所以他二月的時候他就選擇一顆髮金他現在就可以選了啊一顆髮金也必須要執行完畢一顆髮金前腳的就執行完畢了嗎對啊所以他當時選擇一顆髮金他就可以現在就可以選了啊結果他當時選擇緩刑然後你們現在就有可能按照新法26條第9款然後讓他不能夠登記啊我想不管任何的個案就是說我們什麼不管任何個案我告訴你來我問你新法第二條是什麼概念\n你自己學法律不曉得刑法第二條是什麼概念刑法第二條就是罪行法定主義嘛就是要從輕從如果今天新法跟舊法競合的時候新法是比較嚴格他在行為的時候不知道新法的話那麼必須要怎麼樣必須要從舊從輕嘛\n這最基本的原則可是現在他在二月的時候他根本不知道五月會修法他當時選擇這個緩刑根本就不代表說他之後他怎麼會知道他會因為這樣而被剝奪他的參政權委員的這個意見沒有期待可能性啊委員的這個意見我們予以尊重但是就個案這因為已經牽涉到個案了而且認定的權限是在我們的委員會\n我現在就是要告訴你你們的認定有可能會侵害他的一個權利嘛你會再做一個非常嚴重的一個處理法法律的規定現在就有問題我現在就要開始去年是不是有這樣的案例紅本城的案例是不是在彰化有這樣的案例\n你記不記得你記得嘛對不對當時是不是有提出行政假處分是有沒有同意假處分有同意嘛來這個當中為什麼會同意行政假處分第一個它是屬於公法上面的爭議為什麼因為是當事人的參政權跟你們是相對人所以有公法上的爭議第二個對於當事人的參政權而言如果他這次不能夠選他的\n參政權是重大的損害無法回復而且無法以金錢彌補對不對然後他說對於你這個相對人而言如果你現在讓他選他到最後如果你們認為他不符合消極要件你們可以怎麼做你的究竟是什麼如果法院有假處分的話我們會遵照假我當然知道你我現在就是要告訴你說你如果有假處分當然要聽我可是我們現在是看假處分的理由你本身還有救濟管道對不對什麼是救濟管道\n你去年的抗告被稅高行政法院駁回對不對\n誰的你的抗告啦洪本成的案件對洪本成的案件對啊你被駁回對不對本案最後他敗訴啦那是什麼時候本案最後來這個就是關鍵了去年你抗告被駁回所以他可以選選完之後你今年又提出選舉無效訴訟對不對\n有選舉無瑕事兆對嘛你今年才提嘛提了以後結果是另一回事但是重點來了重點在利益橫平之下你如果現在不讓他選他的權益就是利己而重大而且不可毀損的回復的親愛而你你們相對人是有救濟權的\n你人有救濟權耶所以為什麼最高等行政法院跟最高行政法院通通都駁回你們的申請而你現在我們事件發生之初我就告訴你這種狀況你還執意而行連刑法都不可以重就重新重奏因為這個必須要15號的委員會來做這個如果你今天15號判定讓他可以繼續選我就跟你說對不起\n我就跟你說對不起所以嘛我就跟你講我們現在這個預見15號的狀況你們極有可能會不受理他的登記嘛因為你們認為舊法清法已經把他的資格取消掉而事實上他在這個新法資格取消到的這個時候他早在三個月之前他根本不知道他沒有期待可能性他的信賴利益呢完全受到侵害他根本不會知道三個月之後要修法嘛\n我們是根據現行的法律的規定來進行審查的所以你現在看到你們現行法律要即將侵害到他不可回復金錢無法補償的參政權的時候你們兩手一攤什麼都不做嗎不是 如果當事人他有其他的救濟的管道的話我們現在就在救濟啊我們也尊重我告訴你現在這個案件已經發生了\n你們現在中選會仍然可以在這個15號之前做出什麼樣的一個事情但是我要告訴你15號之前什麼都不能做所以你看看你剛剛只是不願意告訴我你的結果事實上你的結果已經不言可喻了嘛15號大家開會委員會做決議了我們才有一個結果出來我現在要求你們就是說你應該要讓委員會的委員知道這個案例為什麼因為你們的權利是不對等的\n你一旦現在剝奪了他的這個選擇權他的參政權事實上他當時沒有其他的可能性他根本沒有辦法預見三個月之後他選擇緩行這件事情會被取消他的參選資格好再來你現在身為中選會你是有救濟管道的你的救濟管道就是之後你可以有選舉有效的訴訟的提出而這個是可以回復的對他而言你現在不讓他登記\n他就沒有了而且其實在這個最高行政法院的判決裡面講了很重要的一個原則是什麼還有民主原則也就是說王家珍自己本身有權參政人民有權利選擇他這個叫選舉權我們有權利選擇他結果人民選擇王家珍的權利是被你中選會剝奪剝奪的理由不是被我剝奪了你在認定上面基本上認定上面是有問題因為這個法修得太快\n這個修法在今年的6月才經過立法院單獨通過那我問你2月的時候他怎麼會知道他選擇反行的時候是立法院通過的法律我們根據大院通過的法律來執行我問你2月的時候他怎麼會知道他選擇反行他會被剝奪參政權為什麼\n你是不是要四個月以後你會不會下台這個在立法的過程裡面應該都會有所考量你不用去考慮立法的過程我現在要告訴你說你們現在即將要對撞即將就要發生這個禮拜就要發生你們中選會就要做出一個比刑法第二條\n最新法定主義還要嚴格的這樣一個判斷從後去剝奪一個人的參政權參政權是憲法的基本人權你們中選會就會成為剝奪憲法基本人權的一個幫兇我現在就要告訴你現在最高行政法院也好高等行政法院也好去年的所有的一個判決還有都已經講出這樣的一個原則更何況你現在身為一個相對人你有救濟的管道你憑什麼在之前就不讓他選\n如果有法院的確定的裁判我們都會尊重都會按照確定裁判來執行當然今天如果有行政假處分的話就會這麼做我現在是希望你們能夠在事前就能夠讓大家知道有這樣的一個案例充分的討論事前我沒有辦法事前我只能夠根據這個法律規定是怎麼樣我照這樣來回答我希望讓中選會的委員在開會的時候能夠充分知道這個案件做充分的討論有利不利的我們都會予以考量\n這個案件沒有預設立場這個我們今天是有論辯這個過程未來都有可能會進入到憲法法院來憲法訴訟法裡面來進行這樣的一個討論為什麼因為這個法從現在個人的層次如果一旦未來如果說這個對於傷害人當事人的傷害是確定的話當事人也不排除一路會走到憲法這個解釋的程序\n政績所以我現在要告訴你現在你身為中選會的一個主管機關你有可能就是這樣的一個可以說是扼殺參政權的一個筷子手這個責任我們負擔不起我們依法執行不是我們來扼殺他依法執行但是就會扼殺了\n二殺的參政權我現在要留下這個紀錄讓你知道未來我們一旦進入到憲法訴訟的時候我們必須要在這個地方來思考如何保障基本人權這才是我們最大的目的我們尊重當事人的權利主張好 謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.060 --> 00:08.387\n謝謝昭偉是不是請中選會李主委備詢請李主委\n\n00:19.594 --> 00:39.404\n主委早我想要針對台南市現在的立法委員選舉第5選區現在候選人是王家珍那他因為現在有一個之前的助理費的案件所以在緩刑當中我現在要問他現在針對他立法委員登記的參選資格中選會現在的認定是什麼\n\n00:44.120 --> 01:03.035\n跟委員做個說明有關於立法委員候選人資格的認定的問題我們會在這個月15號的委員會議來進行你對他這個案子有沒有了解這個案子我是看媒體報導有一些了解你不知道他這個案子現在可能有爭議你們有可能會\n\n01:04.796 --> 01:23.695\n你們有可能會不受理他的登記對不對最後的結果必須要是15號的委員會我當然知道我們現在就是要來討論這個事情為什麼因為我們已經預先看到這個事情大家討論的重點可能在公職人員選罷法第26條第9款\n\n01:25.697 --> 01:26.378\n法院判決有期徒刑以上的刑確定\n\n01:42.874 --> 02:07.960\n還沒有執行或者執行還沒有完或者是在緩刑中或者是行刑權施加消滅等等這種種的狀況也都是消極資格的情況我知道這個修法這個修法當然還有很多的疑義我們不是現在討論的重點我現在要問的就是說這個修法是在5月的時候進行是\n\n02:08.260 --> 02:23.147\n那王家珍他那個時候案件的判決是在2月所以他那個時候申請要緩刑時間點是2月他怎麼會知道3個月之後他的緩刑的申請會變成他不能夠參選的理由呢\n\n02:24.910 --> 02:38.878\n我們有關於候選人資格的認定的時間點就是在登記截止的時間登記截止的時候也就是24號到24號不是我是說2月的時候王家珍他要選擇\n\n02:41.399 --> 03:06.450\n這個緩刑的時候他怎麼會知道他如果選擇緩刑他三個月之後會因為修法然後他沒有辦法取得這個候選人的資格呢如果他當時二月之後選擇一顆髮金就沒這回事啊他當時信賴緩刑並沒有其他的後遺症這個信賴為什麼到三個月之後不見了然後現在中選會要對他來可能要以這個理由來剝奪他的參選資格呢\n\n03:08.371 --> 03:20.458\n我想這個緩刑或者是一顆罰金這是法院的判決來做決定他就是判他可以一顆罰金也可以緩刑啊到不一定是這個候選不是你現在第9款只有針對緩刑沒有針對一顆罰金嘛\n\n03:23.900 --> 03:50.920\n所以他二月的時候他就選擇一顆髮金他現在就可以選了啊一顆髮金也必須要執行完畢一顆髮金前腳的就執行完畢了嗎對啊所以他當時選擇一顆髮金他就可以現在就可以選了啊結果他當時選擇緩刑然後你們現在就有可能按照新法26條第9款然後讓他不能夠登記啊我想不管任何的個案就是說我們什麼不管任何個案我告訴你來我問你新法第二條是什麼概念\n\n03:53.559 --> 04:10.847\n你自己學法律不曉得刑法第二條是什麼概念刑法第二條就是罪行法定主義嘛就是要從輕從如果今天新法跟舊法競合的時候新法是比較嚴格他在行為的時候不知道新法的話那麼必須要怎麼樣必須要從舊從輕嘛\n\n04:12.848 --> 04:37.394\n這最基本的原則可是現在他在二月的時候他根本不知道五月會修法他當時選擇這個緩刑根本就不代表說他之後他怎麼會知道他會因為這樣而被剝奪他的參政權委員的這個意見沒有期待可能性啊委員的這個意見我們予以尊重但是就個案這因為已經牽涉到個案了而且認定的權限是在我們的委員會\n\n04:38.594 --> 04:55.010\n我現在就是要告訴你你們的認定有可能會侵害他的一個權利嘛你會再做一個非常嚴重的一個處理法法律的規定現在就有問題我現在就要開始去年是不是有這樣的案例紅本城的案例是不是在彰化有這樣的案例\n\n04:56.251 --> 05:20.492\n你記不記得你記得嘛對不對當時是不是有提出行政假處分是有沒有同意假處分有同意嘛來這個當中為什麼會同意行政假處分第一個它是屬於公法上面的爭議為什麼因為是當事人的參政權跟你們是相對人所以有公法上的爭議第二個對於當事人的參政權而言如果他這次不能夠選他的\n\n05:22.652 --> 05:50.658\n參政權是重大的損害無法回復而且無法以金錢彌補對不對然後他說對於你這個相對人而言如果你現在讓他選他到最後如果你們認為他不符合消極要件你們可以怎麼做你的究竟是什麼如果法院有假處分的話我們會遵照假我當然知道你我現在就是要告訴你說你如果有假處分當然要聽我可是我們現在是看假處分的理由你本身還有救濟管道對不對什麼是救濟管道\n\n05:52.281 --> 05:53.582\n你去年的抗告被稅高行政法院駁回對不對\n\n06:20.138 --> 06:34.959\n誰的你的抗告啦洪本成的案件對洪本成的案件對啊你被駁回對不對本案最後他敗訴啦那是什麼時候本案最後來這個就是關鍵了去年你抗告被駁回所以他可以選選完之後你今年又提出選舉無效訴訟對不對\n\n06:37.474 --> 06:53.547\n有選舉無瑕事兆對嘛你今年才提嘛提了以後結果是另一回事但是重點來了重點在利益橫平之下你如果現在不讓他選他的權益就是利己而重大而且不可毀損的回復的親愛而你你們相對人是有救濟權的\n\n06:54.895 --> 07:11.389\n你人有救濟權耶所以為什麼最高等行政法院跟最高行政法院通通都駁回你們的申請而你現在我們事件發生之初我就告訴你這種狀況你還執意而行連刑法都不可以重就重新重奏因為這個必須要15號的委員會來做這個如果你今天15號判定讓他可以繼續選我就跟你說對不起\n\n07:19.235 --> 07:42.225\n我就跟你說對不起所以嘛我就跟你講我們現在這個預見15號的狀況你們極有可能會不受理他的登記嘛因為你們認為舊法清法已經把他的資格取消掉而事實上他在這個新法資格取消到的這個時候他早在三個月之前他根本不知道他沒有期待可能性他的信賴利益呢完全受到侵害他根本不會知道三個月之後要修法嘛\n\n07:43.072 --> 08:05.899\n我們是根據現行的法律的規定來進行審查的所以你現在看到你們現行法律要即將侵害到他不可回復金錢無法補償的參政權的時候你們兩手一攤什麼都不做嗎不是如果當事人他有其他的救濟的管道的話我們現在就在救濟啊我們也尊重我告訴你現在這個案件已經發生了\n\n08:06.859 --> 08:34.242\n你們現在中選會仍然可以在這個15號之前做出什麼樣的一個事情但是我要告訴你15號之前什麼都不能做所以你看看你剛剛只是不願意告訴我你的結果事實上你的結果已經不言可喻了嘛15號大家開會委員會做決議了我們才有一個結果出來我現在要求你們就是說你應該要讓委員會的委員知道這個案例為什麼因為你們的權利是不對等的\n\n08:35.083 --> 09:01.868\n你一旦現在剝奪了他的這個選擇權他的參政權事實上他當時沒有其他的可能性他根本沒有辦法預見三個月之後他選擇緩行這件事情會被取消他的參選資格好再來你現在身為中選會你是有救濟管道的你的救濟管道就是之後你可以有選舉有效的訴訟的提出而這個是可以回復的對他而言你現在不讓他登記\n\n09:02.748 --> 09:28.708\n他就沒有了而且其實在這個最高行政法院的判決裡面講了很重要的一個原則是什麼還有民主原則也就是說王家珍自己本身有權參政人民有權利選擇他這個叫選舉權我們有權利選擇他結果人民選擇王家珍的權利是被你中選會剝奪剝奪的理由不是被我剝奪了你在認定上面基本上認定上面是有問題因為這個法修得太快\n\n09:29.268 --> 09:45.576\n這個修法在今年的6月才經過立法院單獨通過那我問你2月的時候他怎麼會知道他選擇反行的時候是立法院通過的法律我們根據大院通過的法律來執行我問你2月的時候他怎麼會知道他選擇反行他會被剝奪參政權為什麼\n\n09:47.287 --> 10:04.290\n你是不是要四個月以後你會不會下台這個在立法的過程裡面應該都會有所考量你不用去考慮立法的過程我現在要告訴你說你們現在即將要對撞即將就要發生這個禮拜就要發生你們中選會就要做出一個比刑法第二條\n\n10:05.251 --> 10:30.082\n最新法定主義還要嚴格的這樣一個判斷從後去剝奪一個人的參政權參政權是憲法的基本人權你們中選會就會成為剝奪憲法基本人權的一個幫兇我現在就要告訴你現在最高行政法院也好高等行政法院也好去年的所有的一個判決還有都已經講出這樣的一個原則更何況你現在身為一個相對人你有救濟的管道你憑什麼在之前就不讓他選\n\n10:30.862 --> 10:59.862\n如果有法院的確定的裁判我們都會尊重都會按照確定裁判來執行當然今天如果有行政假處分的話就會這麼做我現在是希望你們能夠在事前就能夠讓大家知道有這樣的一個案例充分的討論事前我沒有辦法事前我只能夠根據這個法律規定是怎麼樣我照這樣來回答我希望讓中選會的委員在開會的時候能夠充分知道這個案件做充分的討論有利不利的我們都會予以考量\n\n11:01.387 --> 11:28.555\n這個案件沒有預設立場這個我們今天是有論辯這個過程未來都有可能會進入到憲法法院來憲法訴訟法裡面來進行這樣的一個討論為什麼因為這個法從現在個人的層次如果一旦未來如果說這個對於傷害人當事人的傷害是確定的話當事人也不排除一路會走到憲法這個解釋的程序\n\n11:29.316 --> 11:41.890\n政績所以我現在要告訴你現在你身為中選會的一個主管機關你有可能就是這樣的一個可以說是扼殺參政權的一個筷子手這個責任我們負擔不起我們依法執行不是我們來扼殺他依法執行但是就會扼殺了\n\n11:50.439 --> 12:08.162\n二殺的參政權我現在要留下這個紀錄讓你知道未來我們一旦進入到憲法訴訟的時候我們必須要在這個地方來思考如何保障基本人權這才是我們最大的目的我們尊重當事人的權利主張好謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.06,"end":8.387,"text":"謝謝昭偉是不是請中選會李主委備詢請李主委"},{"start":19.594,"end":39.404,"text":"主委早我想要針對台南市現在的立法委員選舉第5選區現在候選人是王家珍那他因為現在有一個之前的助理費的案件所以在緩刑當中我現在要問他現在針對他立法委員登記的參選資格中選會現在的認定是什麼"},{"start":44.12,"end":63.035,"text":"跟委員做個說明有關於立法委員候選人資格的認定的問題我們會在這個月15號的委員會議來進行你對他這個案子有沒有了解這個案子我是看媒體報導有一些了解你不知道他這個案子現在可能有爭議你們有可能會"},{"start":64.796,"end":83.695,"text":"你們有可能會不受理他的登記對不對最後的結果必須要是15號的委員會我當然知道我們現在就是要來討論這個事情為什麼因為我們已經預先看到這個事情大家討論的重點可能在公職人員選罷法第26條第9款"},{"start":85.697,"end":86.378,"text":"法院判決有期徒刑以上的刑確定"},{"start":102.874,"end":127.96,"text":"還沒有執行或者執行還沒有完或者是在緩刑中或者是行刑權施加消滅等等這種種的狀況也都是消極資格的情況我知道這個修法這個修法當然還有很多的疑義我們不是現在討論的重點我現在要問的就是說這個修法是在5月的時候進行是"},{"start":128.26,"end":143.147,"text":"那王家珍他那個時候案件的判決是在2月所以他那個時候申請要緩刑時間點是2月他怎麼會知道3個月之後他的緩刑的申請會變成他不能夠參選的理由呢"},{"start":144.91,"end":158.878,"text":"我們有關於候選人資格的認定的時間點就是在登記截止的時間登記截止的時候也就是24號到24號不是我是說2月的時候王家珍他要選擇"},{"start":161.399,"end":186.45,"text":"這個緩刑的時候他怎麼會知道他如果選擇緩刑他三個月之後會因為修法然後他沒有辦法取得這個候選人的資格呢如果他當時二月之後選擇一顆髮金就沒這回事啊他當時信賴緩刑並沒有其他的後遺症這個信賴為什麼到三個月之後不見了然後現在中選會要對他來可能要以這個理由來剝奪他的參選資格呢"},{"start":188.371,"end":200.458,"text":"我想這個緩刑或者是一顆罰金這是法院的判決來做決定他就是判他可以一顆罰金也可以緩刑啊到不一定是這個候選不是你現在第9款只有針對緩刑沒有針對一顆罰金嘛"},{"start":203.9,"end":230.92,"text":"所以他二月的時候他就選擇一顆髮金他現在就可以選了啊一顆髮金也必須要執行完畢一顆髮金前腳的就執行完畢了嗎對啊所以他當時選擇一顆髮金他就可以現在就可以選了啊結果他當時選擇緩刑然後你們現在就有可能按照新法26條第9款然後讓他不能夠登記啊我想不管任何的個案就是說我們什麼不管任何個案我告訴你來我問你新法第二條是什麼概念"},{"start":233.559,"end":250.847,"text":"你自己學法律不曉得刑法第二條是什麼概念刑法第二條就是罪行法定主義嘛就是要從輕從如果今天新法跟舊法競合的時候新法是比較嚴格他在行為的時候不知道新法的話那麼必須要怎麼樣必須要從舊從輕嘛"},{"start":252.848,"end":277.394,"text":"這最基本的原則可是現在他在二月的時候他根本不知道五月會修法他當時選擇這個緩刑根本就不代表說他之後他怎麼會知道他會因為這樣而被剝奪他的參政權委員的這個意見沒有期待可能性啊委員的這個意見我們予以尊重但是就個案這因為已經牽涉到個案了而且認定的權限是在我們的委員會"},{"start":278.594,"end":295.01,"text":"我現在就是要告訴你你們的認定有可能會侵害他的一個權利嘛你會再做一個非常嚴重的一個處理法法律的規定現在就有問題我現在就要開始去年是不是有這樣的案例紅本城的案例是不是在彰化有這樣的案例"},{"start":296.251,"end":320.492,"text":"你記不記得你記得嘛對不對當時是不是有提出行政假處分是有沒有同意假處分有同意嘛來這個當中為什麼會同意行政假處分第一個它是屬於公法上面的爭議為什麼因為是當事人的參政權跟你們是相對人所以有公法上的爭議第二個對於當事人的參政權而言如果他這次不能夠選他的"},{"start":322.652,"end":350.658,"text":"參政權是重大的損害無法回復而且無法以金錢彌補對不對然後他說對於你這個相對人而言如果你現在讓他選他到最後如果你們認為他不符合消極要件你們可以怎麼做你的究竟是什麼如果法院有假處分的話我們會遵照假我當然知道你我現在就是要告訴你說你如果有假處分當然要聽我可是我們現在是看假處分的理由你本身還有救濟管道對不對什麼是救濟管道"},{"start":352.281,"end":353.582,"text":"你去年的抗告被稅高行政法院駁回對不對"},{"start":380.138,"end":394.959,"text":"誰的你的抗告啦洪本成的案件對洪本成的案件對啊你被駁回對不對本案最後他敗訴啦那是什麼時候本案最後來這個就是關鍵了去年你抗告被駁回所以他可以選選完之後你今年又提出選舉無效訴訟對不對"},{"start":397.474,"end":413.547,"text":"有選舉無瑕事兆對嘛你今年才提嘛提了以後結果是另一回事但是重點來了重點在利益橫平之下你如果現在不讓他選他的權益就是利己而重大而且不可毀損的回復的親愛而你你們相對人是有救濟權的"},{"start":414.895,"end":431.389,"text":"你人有救濟權耶所以為什麼最高等行政法院跟最高行政法院通通都駁回你們的申請而你現在我們事件發生之初我就告訴你這種狀況你還執意而行連刑法都不可以重就重新重奏因為這個必須要15號的委員會來做這個如果你今天15號判定讓他可以繼續選我就跟你說對不起"},{"start":439.235,"end":462.225,"text":"我就跟你說對不起所以嘛我就跟你講我們現在這個預見15號的狀況你們極有可能會不受理他的登記嘛因為你們認為舊法清法已經把他的資格取消掉而事實上他在這個新法資格取消到的這個時候他早在三個月之前他根本不知道他沒有期待可能性他的信賴利益呢完全受到侵害他根本不會知道三個月之後要修法嘛"},{"start":463.072,"end":485.899,"text":"我們是根據現行的法律的規定來進行審查的所以你現在看到你們現行法律要即將侵害到他不可回復金錢無法補償的參政權的時候你們兩手一攤什麼都不做嗎不是 如果當事人他有其他的救濟的管道的話我們現在就在救濟啊我們也尊重我告訴你現在這個案件已經發生了"},{"start":486.859,"end":514.242,"text":"你們現在中選會仍然可以在這個15號之前做出什麼樣的一個事情但是我要告訴你15號之前什麼都不能做所以你看看你剛剛只是不願意告訴我你的結果事實上你的結果已經不言可喻了嘛15號大家開會委員會做決議了我們才有一個結果出來我現在要求你們就是說你應該要讓委員會的委員知道這個案例為什麼因為你們的權利是不對等的"},{"start":515.083,"end":541.868,"text":"你一旦現在剝奪了他的這個選擇權他的參政權事實上他當時沒有其他的可能性他根本沒有辦法預見三個月之後他選擇緩行這件事情會被取消他的參選資格好再來你現在身為中選會你是有救濟管道的你的救濟管道就是之後你可以有選舉有效的訴訟的提出而這個是可以回復的對他而言你現在不讓他登記"},{"start":542.748,"end":568.708,"text":"他就沒有了而且其實在這個最高行政法院的判決裡面講了很重要的一個原則是什麼還有民主原則也就是說王家珍自己本身有權參政人民有權利選擇他這個叫選舉權我們有權利選擇他結果人民選擇王家珍的權利是被你中選會剝奪剝奪的理由不是被我剝奪了你在認定上面基本上認定上面是有問題因為這個法修得太快"},{"start":569.268,"end":585.576,"text":"這個修法在今年的6月才經過立法院單獨通過那我問你2月的時候他怎麼會知道他選擇反行的時候是立法院通過的法律我們根據大院通過的法律來執行我問你2月的時候他怎麼會知道他選擇反行他會被剝奪參政權為什麼"},{"start":587.287,"end":604.29,"text":"你是不是要四個月以後你會不會下台這個在立法的過程裡面應該都會有所考量你不用去考慮立法的過程我現在要告訴你說你們現在即將要對撞即將就要發生這個禮拜就要發生你們中選會就要做出一個比刑法第二條"},{"start":605.251,"end":630.082,"text":"最新法定主義還要嚴格的這樣一個判斷從後去剝奪一個人的參政權參政權是憲法的基本人權你們中選會就會成為剝奪憲法基本人權的一個幫兇我現在就要告訴你現在最高行政法院也好高等行政法院也好去年的所有的一個判決還有都已經講出這樣的一個原則更何況你現在身為一個相對人你有救濟的管道你憑什麼在之前就不讓他選"},{"start":630.862,"end":659.862,"text":"如果有法院的確定的裁判我們都會尊重都會按照確定裁判來執行當然今天如果有行政假處分的話就會這麼做我現在是希望你們能夠在事前就能夠讓大家知道有這樣的一個案例充分的討論事前我沒有辦法事前我只能夠根據這個法律規定是怎麼樣我照這樣來回答我希望讓中選會的委員在開會的時候能夠充分知道這個案件做充分的討論有利不利的我們都會予以考量"},{"start":661.387,"end":688.555,"text":"這個案件沒有預設立場這個我們今天是有論辯這個過程未來都有可能會進入到憲法法院來憲法訴訟法裡面來進行這樣的一個討論為什麼因為這個法從現在個人的層次如果一旦未來如果說這個對於傷害人當事人的傷害是確定的話當事人也不排除一路會走到憲法這個解釋的程序"},{"start":689.316,"end":701.89,"text":"政績所以我現在要告訴你現在你身為中選會的一個主管機關你有可能就是這樣的一個可以說是扼殺參政權的一個筷子手這個責任我們負擔不起我們依法執行不是我們來扼殺他依法執行但是就會扼殺了"},{"start":710.439,"end":728.162,"text":"二殺的參政權我現在要留下這個紀錄讓你知道未來我們一旦進入到憲法訴訟的時候我們必須要在這個地方來思考如何保障基本人權這才是我們最大的目的我們尊重當事人的權利主張好 謝謝委員"}]}}}}