{"id":148977,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148977","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a720294ee0de950887a4d994fc233f19f174e7c986728e607a0322d6f935e5ba50cb3a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"江啟臣","委員發言時間":"12:23:11 - 12:34:40","影片長度":"00:11:29","會議時間":"2023-12-11T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢。二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡適應等25人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。三、原住民族工作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-13"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":689,"end_time":"2023-12-11T12:34:40+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T12:23:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":920,"blocks":[["江委員啟臣：（12時23分）召委，邀請內政部部長還有原民會主委。"],["主席：林部長、夷將主委請。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["江委員啟臣：兩位好。我想我的時間有限，主要今天就針對土地問題，土地問題應該都跟你們部會有關。大家都知道早期在臺灣，早一點的這些農民、祖先等等在山地上開墾，後來因為有些土地就列為林保地、原保地，特別是像原保地這些，所以他們一路在訴求這個土地的權利，不管是使用權或所有權這部分，其實訴求很久。因為本席的選區當中有不少都屬於這樣子的土地，也很困擾。過去不管是內政部、監察院、原民會，其實你們都知道這個問題，我不曉得部長瞭不瞭解，但主委應該很瞭解才對。2010年的時候，內政部曾經針對是否要放寬「還我土地」計畫這件事情有開會，也有一些決議，但是後來也不了了之。2021年7月監察院直接糾正內政部，關於這件事情，應該要有效地去處理。針對這個糾正案，內政部當初認為這不是他們管轄的，應該是國有財產署，而且因為涉及原保地，所以應該屬於原住民族委員會。不管怎麼樣，到現在沒有處理啦，所以這些人也只能抗爭、也只能陳情、也只能無奈！當然，有一些人或許不是真的在耕作，但有不少人真的是祖宗八代一直下來就在那塊土地上面耕作，可是他們面臨使用權、所有權可能統統沒辦法。或許有一些你們說可以修法讓他們租用，但是包括這一塊，到現在我也沒有看到任何處理進度，所以導致這些人也只能不斷地抗爭、不斷地陳情，有一些都已經好幾代了，從他的阿公、爸爸，到他現在，產權各方面都還是不明。所以我想請教兩位，這到底是誰的事情？如果是涉及這麼多部會的事情，為什麼行政院沒有一個政務委員出來協調，就放任這個事情在那裡呢？然後你們面對監察院的糾正也不理啊！這是2021年監察院7月份給你們的糾正，你們有處理嗎？現在已經2023年了耶！"],["林部長右昌：委員，你提的是原保地的問題？"],["江委員啟臣：對啊，就是這些原墾農他們的訴求。他們最早的訴求就是「還我土地」嘛！對不對？不要讓這個事情變成漢人和原住民之間的衝突，不應該是這樣子！它有它的歷史背景，可是也不能因為過去的歷史到現在很複雜，就把它丟著嘛！我想這也是為什麼監察院會去糾正你們的原因，你們也沒有處理，就放任它在那邊啊！","主委，你沒有接到過這些陳情嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：跟委員報告，原住民保留地非原住民可以有承租權，因為目前山坡地保育利用條例明定原住民保留地所有權移轉以原住民為限，所以一般非原民的使用權，就是承租權還是可以的。"],["江委員啟臣：承租權也不完整，也不是大家都可以承租喔！有一些它直接命你收回。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：有些個案是因為……"],["江委員啟臣：我們現在遇到有一些是直接要求收回，它也不再租啊！所以我之前找原民會來協調的時候，也找了林務局、內政部、國有財產局，都開過協調會，太多次了啦！我當了快12年的立委，這個議題不知道困擾我們多久，到現在你們沒有一個單位有那樣子的承擔！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我跟委員補充報告一點就是……"],["江委員啟臣：你們說要修原開條例嘛！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：特別提到白毛台的案例……"],["江委員啟臣：不只白毛台，太多了，包括和平地區。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：以這個案例來講的話，我們行政院版的原住民族保留地管理利用條例的草案目前已經在立法院了，那就是要解決這些問題。"],["江委員啟臣：但是前幾天游次長有協商，也沒有共識啊！所以就代表這個問題在這個會期也不可能有結果啦！行政部門的勇氣到底在哪裡？你們的承擔到底在哪裡嘛！對不對？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們願意把條例送到立法院就是要解決這些問題。"],["江委員啟臣：這些不完全是立法院的事情！如果你們行政部門沒有辦法把這個事情做釐清，也不願意去承擔這些責任的話，在立法院怎麼可能談得出共識？不可能有共識的啊！每個立委代表的都是不同的族群，要怎麼有共識？對不對？政府的行政責任在哪裡？你們的行政責任就是解決問題，你要擔起來啊！你們到底要怎麼做啊？你說可以承租，也不見得大家都可以承租喔！並不是喔！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：有些不能承租是因為它超限利用才不能承租。"],["江委員啟臣：超限利用歸超限利用……"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：大部分的案例是超限利用。"],["江委員啟臣：我現在講的都是幾十年來人家就在那邊開墾的，甚至……"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：有些是借名登記的問題，跟承租……"],["江委員啟臣：甚至早期都還是政府鼓勵開墾的，結果他現在可能連個農民身分都拿不到，為什麼？因為土地問題，要嘛沒有所有權，要嘛沒有承租權、沒有契約，現在如果要重新打契約，一堆新的規定又來了！反正感覺就是：你們趕快走，不要在這邊耕作了啦，我土地要收回啦，這就是我的原住民保留地、這就是我的林保地，我就是不讓你們耕作了！太多了！我遇到太多這樣子的個案了！這些個案過去也曾經有被逼到自殺的，不是沒有啊，我也處理過啊！所以才會有監察院這個糾正案嘛！這難道是在糾正立法院嗎？是在糾正你們耶！你怎麼會反過來跟我們講法案躺在立法院？這根本是標準的卸責！拖了多少年了？這些人……"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：監察院這個糾正案是包含借名登記……"],["江委員啟臣：主委，你講話小心一點，我跟你講，如果你們站在處理這個問題的立場上面還是這麼「壓霸」的態度的話……"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我沒有「壓霸」啊，我們的……"],["江委員啟臣：你就是讓這些人不斷抗議！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們的法律案已經送到大院這裡了。"],["江委員啟臣：法律案雖然送到這邊，問題是在協商的過程裡面沒辦法達成共識，然後行政部門又挑起什麼責任了呢？難道這個糾正案是監察院在糾正我們哦？是糾正你們耶！糾正內政部，內政部又推給原民會、又推給國有財產署！沒有答案啊！到現在也沒有啊！不然你告訴我怎麼解決嘛！對於這些人的抗爭、這些人的訴求，你告訴我怎麼解決！我是一個民意代表，我不是行政官員，我也不是部長，我能做的事情就是幫他們表達他們的訴求、他們的意見、他們的想法，他們就是想要耕作，他們就是想要合法地祖宗三代都在那邊務農，他能不能在那邊務農下去？你不能一竿子打翻，好像所有的人都是不法的，其實有很多人也是合法在那邊務農的啊！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：委員，其實有許多案例都是取得承租權，這些案例會後可以給委員做參考。"],["江委員啟臣：有一些有，但是有一些沒有，不然……"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：多半有。"],["江委員啟臣：不然不會有那麼多人拿不到農保資格，甚至在受到天然災害影響的時候，政府的補助他也沒有資格拿，為什麼？因為他沒有身分！這裡面還涉及很多其他的問題啦，原漢之間這個我不要講，可是我要跟你講的就是，真正在那邊耕作的人不見得有土地的使用權和所有權，過去因為政府沒有一個法制化的管理，造成這些土地因為被劃歸為原住民保留地，所以只有原住民才能夠有所有權，對不對？但是這些土地能不能賣？你們的規定是怎麼樣你自己也很清楚，可是中間就透過很多私人的不管是租或賣等等的，然後也沒有去管理，最後造成真正在這上面種果樹的、務農的也沒有農民身分，既沒有辦法拿到農保，相關的農業他也拿不到，為什麼？因為土地身分沒有得到證明、沒有得到法律上面的一個合法的保障。","針對這些土地衍生出來的身分問題，我在這邊只是要求你們趕快解決這個問題，而不是要你來這邊推卸責任！難道修了那個法，這個問題就解決了嗎？還有，在這個修法的過程裡面，所有的委員難道對這個問題能夠有共識嗎？因為每個委員背後所代表的，不要說什麼啦，連族群的利益都不見得一樣。所以這就有賴行政部門去看法規上怎麼處理，才能夠得到最圓滿的解決嘛！我們的要求就是這樣子而已，所以你不要在這邊推卸責任啦！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我沒有推卸責任。"],["江委員啟臣：那你就回去看怎麼樣面對這些抗爭啊！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們會把條例送到大院就不是推卸責任啦！"],["江委員啟臣：好，那你告訴我！現在條例也沒有辦法解決啊！的確就是沒有共識啊！沒有共識……"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們尊重大院的共識。"],["江委員啟臣：不是「尊重大院」，而是你要去處理那些問題啦！不是「尊重大院」，不然要這個政府幹嘛？對不對？如果這個政府沒辦法解決問題，要這個政府幹嘛？政府就是要處理問題的，不能因為它複雜就不處理啊！","所以你也答不出來啊！"],["主席（鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員代）：接下來我們請游毓蘭召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-13","speakers":["游毓蘭","賴品妤","陳玉珍","張宏陸","王美惠","陳以信","黃世杰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅美玲","莊瑞雄","江啟臣","李德維","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳椒華","林文瑞","陳琬惠","邱臣遠","廖國棟Sufin‧Siluko","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住\n民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦\n理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢；二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原\n住民身分法修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五\n條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第\n九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案、(六)繼\n續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」\n案、( 七) 審查委員蔡適應等25 人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案；三、原住民族工\n作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)審\n查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)審查\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案、(四)審查\n委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員陳瑩等\n17 人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 審查委員廖國棟等25 人擬具\n「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工\n作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案；四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人\n擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等20人\n擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名\n條例第九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"148977","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148977","tool":"pyannote","id":"148977-pyannote"},"job_id":"qU5qeALDe8NWql0x","queued_at":"2024-06-02 16:21:20","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-02 16:21:20","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148977"},{"time":"2024-06-02 16:21:21","msg":"downloading 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00:00:20,123\n請召委要請內政部長還有原民會主委林部長、宜將主委請兩位好我想時間有限主要今天要針對這個土地問題\n\n2\n00:00:22,935 --> 00:00:42,515\n那土地問題應該都跟兩個部位有關大家知道這個早期臺灣的這些早一點的農民、祖先等等在山地上開墾但後來因為有些土地又列為林保地、原保地特別是像原保地這些\n\n3\n00:00:43,576 --> 00:00:58,850\n所以其實他們一路在訴求這個土地的權利不管是使用權或所有權這部分其實訴求很久那本是因為我的這個選區當中有不少都屬於這部分的這樣子的土地也很困擾\n\n4\n00:01:00,732 --> 00:01:14,384\n過去不管是內政部、監察院、原民會其實你們都知道這個問題或許我不曉得部長你了不了解但是主委應該了解才對2010年的時候內政部曾經針對這個\n\n5\n00:01:17,447 --> 00:01:37,937\n是否要放寬這環我土地計畫這件事情有開會也有一些決議但後來也不了了之那2021年7月今天才有一個直接糾正內政部關於這件事情就是說應該要有效的去處理\n\n6\n00:01:39,342 --> 00:01:58,002\n那針對這個糾正案內政部當初認為說這不是我管轄的然後應該是有國有差案署又涉及到元寶地所以應該屬於原住民委員會不管怎麼樣到現在沒有處理啦所以這些人也只能抗爭也只能陳情也只能無奈因為\n\n7\n00:01:59,461 --> 00:02:26,360\n當然有一些人或許他不是真的在耕作那大部分有不少人他是真的祖宗八大這樣子下來他就在那塊土地上面耕作可是他面臨到什麼他面臨到說使用權、所有權可能通通沒辦法那或許有一些你們說我來修法讓你去租用但是包括這一塊到現在我也沒有看到任何的處理進度\n\n8\n00:02:27,594 --> 00:02:52,928\n所以導致這些人也只能不斷的抗爭不斷的陳情那有一些都已經好幾代了從他的阿公、爸爸到他現在這個產權各方面都還是不明的所以我想請教兩位就是說這到底是誰的事情如果涉及到這麼多部會的事情那為什麼行政院沒有一個政務委員出來協調勒\n\n9\n00:02:54,554 --> 00:03:07,059\n然後就放任這個事情在那裡然後你們面對監察院的糾正也不理阿這是2021年的監察院7月份給你們糾正阿你們有處理嗎現在已經2023年了委員你提的是元寶地的問題對啊就是這一些元墾農他們的訴求嘛他們最早的稅就是還我土地嘛對不對不要讓這個事情變成是\n\n10\n00:03:25,238 --> 00:03:49,390\n漢人跟原住民之間的變成這樣子的一個衝突不應該是這樣子他有他的歷史背景可是也不能因為過去的歷史到現在很複雜就把它丟著我想這也是為什麼監察院會去糾正你們的原因你們沒有處理就放任他在那邊拿到那個\n\n11\n00:03:53,413 --> 00:04:13,303\n主委你沒有你沒有接受接受過這些陳情嗎跟委員報告原住民保留地非原住民是有可以有陳租錢那因為目前山坡地保育利用條例他是明定\n\n12\n00:04:14,727 --> 00:04:30,996\n原住民保留地的所有錢遺傳是以原住民為限所以一般非原民的部分他的使用錢就是承租錢是還是可以的承租錢也不完整也不是大家都可以承租有一些他直接面臨收回\n\n13\n00:04:32,159 --> 00:05:00,155\n有些個案是因為我們現在所遇到的有些是直接要求收回他也不再承諸所以原民會之前我找來協調的時候我也找了原民會、林務局、內政部跟我參與都開過協調會啦太多次了我擔任快12年的立委這個議題不知道困擾我們多久到現在你們沒有一個單位有那樣子的承擔補充報告第一點就是\n\n14\n00:05:01,725 --> 00:05:30,265\n你們說要修那個原開條例嘛特別提到那個白毛臺的那個案例嘛不只白毛臺太多了包括和平地區以這個案例來講的話我們現在就是因為我們行政院版的原住民保留地開發管理條例的那個案子現在目前已經在立法院了所以就要解決這些問題但是有沒有就前幾天是不是有院長來協調啊有協商啊也沒有共識啊也沒有共識啊所以這問題就代表這個會議也不可能有結果啦\n\n15\n00:05:31,394 --> 00:05:56,024\n那行政部門你們的勇氣到底在哪裡?你們的承擔到底在哪裡?我們會願意把條例送到立法院就是要解決這些問題這些不完全是立法院的事情如果你們行政部門沒有辦法把這些事情做釐清也不願意去承擔這些責任的話你在立法院怎麼可能談得出共識?不可能有共識的每一個立委代表的都是不同的族群你怎麼有共識?\n\n16\n00:05:57,452 --> 00:06:26,231\n對不對那你政府的行政責任在哪裡你們行政責任就是解決問題你要擔起來啊你們到底要怎麼做啊對不對你說可以有成豬也不見得大家都可以成豬喔並不是喔有些不能成豬的是因為它是超限利用才不能成豬的超限利用歸超限利用大部分案例是超限利用我現在講的是都是幾十年來人家就在那邊開墾的有些是藉由經濟問題甚至早期都還是政府鼓勵開墾的\n\n17\n00:06:28,033 --> 00:06:56,869\n結果他現在可能連一個農民身份都拿不到為什麼因為土地問題要嘛沒有所有權要嘛沒有承租權沒有契約那現在如果要重新打契約的時候一堆新的規定又來了反正就是感覺就是說你們趕快走啦不要在這邊耕作了啦我土地要收回啦這就是我的原住民保留地這就是我的林保地我就不讓你們耕作了太多了遇到太多這樣子的個案了\n\n18\n00:06:58,482 --> 00:07:15,869\n這些對岸過去也曾經被逼到被逼到自殺的也不是沒有啊我也處理過啊所以才會有監察院這個糾正案嘛難道這個在糾正立法院嗎這糾正你們欸怎麼會反過來糾...來...你來跟我們講說欸躺在立法院這根本是標準的卸責啊\n\n19\n00:07:20,489 --> 00:07:37,675\n拖了多少年了那這些人如果啊主委主委你講話小型一點我可以講你們站在這個問題處理的立場上面如果還是這麼壓霸的態度的話你就是讓這些人不斷的抗議啊對不對\n\n20\n00:07:40,956 --> 00:07:50,160\n法律案的問題是在協商的過程裡面沒辦法達成共識然後行政部門你們又挑起了什麼責任勒難道這個財安署要糾正我們喔是糾正你們勒你糾正你內政部內政部又推給什麼原民會又推給國有財安署沒有答案啊到現在沒有啊不然你告訴我嘛怎麼解決嘛\n\n21\n00:08:09,264 --> 00:08:33,855\n這些人的抗爭這些人的訴求你告訴我怎麼解決我是一個民意代表我不是行政官員我也不是部長我能做的事情就是幫他們表達他們的訴求他們的意見他們的想法他們就是想要工作他們就是想要合法的在那邊這個組裝商在那邊勿攏他能不能在那邊勿攏下去嗎\n\n22\n00:08:36,274 --> 00:09:03,447\n你不能把所有的人都打都一竿子打翻所有人好像他們通通都是不法的其實有很多人他也是合法站在那邊啊很多的案例都是取得層出權對不對會後也可以給委員做參考有一些有但有一些沒有不然不會不然不會有那麼多人他拿不到農保他甚至在天然災害受到影響的時候政府的補助他也沒有資格拿為什麼因為\n\n23\n00:09:06,547 --> 00:09:33,712\n他沒有身份這裡面還涉及到很多其他的問題啦原案之間這我不要講可是我要跟你講的就是真正在那邊耕作的人他不見得有土地的使用權跟所有權過去因為政府沒有沒有一個法制化的管理所以造成這些土地因為被劃歸原住民保留地所以只有原住民才能夠有所有權對不對但是這些土地能不能賣\n\n24\n00:09:35,626 --> 00:10:03,464\n你們的規定是怎麼樣你自己也很清楚可是中間呢就透過很多私人的這些他們的不管是租啦賣啦這些等等的然後也沒有去管理然後就最後造成真正在這上面種種果樹的啦務農的啦他也沒有農民身份他也沒有辦法拿到農保相關的農業補助他也拿不到為什麼因為土地身份沒有得到\n\n25\n00:10:04,366 --> 00:10:33,638\n沒有得到證明沒有得到法律上面的一個合法的保障所以這是土地衍生出來它的身份問題我在這邊只是要求你們趕快解決這個問題而不是要你來這邊推卸責任那你難道你修了那個法這個問題就解決了嗎還有在這修法過程裡面你們所有的委員難道對這個問題能夠有共識嗎因為每個人背後所代表的\n\n26\n00:10:34,568 --> 00:11:03,343\n不要說什麼,連族群的利益都不見得一樣所以這就是有賴你行政部門你們要去看法規上怎麼處理能夠得到最圓滿的解決我們要求就是這樣子而已所以你不要在這邊推卸責任沒有推卸責任那你就回去看怎麼樣面對這些抗爭所以把條例送到大院就是不是推卸責任那你告訴我嘛現在也沒有辦法解決啊你那個什麼條例也沒辦法解決啊的確就是沒有共識啊\n\n27\n00:11:04,584 --> 00:11:20,535\n那沒有共識,不是尊重大院你要去處理那些問題啦不是尊重大院,阿不然要這個政府幹嘛對不對,你如果這個政府沒辦法解決問題,要這個政府幹嘛政府就是要處理問題的阿不能因為他複雜,阿就不處理阿所以你也答不出來阿\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2191\t20123\t請召委要請內政部長還有原民會主委林部長、宜將主委請兩位好我想時間有限主要今天要針對這個土地問題\n22935\t42515\t那土地問題應該都跟兩個部位有關大家知道這個早期臺灣的這些早一點的農民、祖先等等在山地上開墾但後來因為有些土地又列為林保地、原保地特別是像原保地這些\n43576\t58850\t所以其實他們一路在訴求這個土地的權利不管是使用權或所有權這部分其實訴求很久那本是因為我的這個選區當中有不少都屬於這部分的這樣子的土地也很困擾\n60732\t74384\t過去不管是內政部、監察院、原民會其實你們都知道這個問題或許我不曉得部長你了不了解但是主委應該了解才對2010年的時候內政部曾經針對這個\n77447\t97937\t是否要放寬這環我土地計畫這件事情有開會也有一些決議但後來也不了了之那2021年7月今天才有一個直接糾正內政部關於這件事情就是說應該要有效的去處理\n99342\t118002\t那針對這個糾正案內政部當初認為說這不是我管轄的然後應該是有國有差案署又涉及到元寶地所以應該屬於原住民委員會不管怎麼樣到現在沒有處理啦所以這些人也只能抗爭也只能陳情也只能無奈因為\n119461\t146360\t當然有一些人或許他不是真的在耕作那大部分有不少人他是真的祖宗八大這樣子下來他就在那塊土地上面耕作可是他面臨到什麼他面臨到說使用權、所有權可能通通沒辦法那或許有一些你們說我來修法讓你去租用但是包括這一塊到現在我也沒有看到任何的處理進度\n147594\t172928\t所以導致這些人也只能不斷的抗爭不斷的陳情那有一些都已經好幾代了從他的阿公、爸爸到他現在這個產權各方面都還是不明的所以我想請教兩位就是說這到底是誰的事情如果涉及到這麼多部會的事情那為什麼行政院沒有一個政務委員出來協調勒\n174554\t187059\t然後就放任這個事情在那裡然後你們面對監察院的糾正也不理阿這是2021年的監察院7月份給你們糾正阿你們有處理嗎現在已經2023年了委員你提的是元寶地的問題對啊就是這一些元墾農他們的訴求嘛他們最早的稅就是還我土地嘛對不對不要讓這個事情變成是\n205238\t229390\t漢人跟原住民之間的變成這樣子的一個衝突不應該是這樣子他有他的歷史背景可是也不能因為過去的歷史到現在很複雜就把它丟著我想這也是為什麼監察院會去糾正你們的原因你們沒有處理就放任他在那邊拿到那個\n233413\t253303\t主委你沒有你沒有接受接受過這些陳情嗎跟委員報告原住民保留地非原住民是有可以有陳租錢那因為目前山坡地保育利用條例他是明定\n254727\t270996\t原住民保留地的所有錢遺傳是以原住民為限所以一般非原民的部分他的使用錢就是承租錢是還是可以的承租錢也不完整也不是大家都可以承租有一些他直接面臨收回\n272159\t300155\t有些個案是因為我們現在所遇到的有些是直接要求收回他也不再承諸所以原民會之前我找來協調的時候我也找了原民會、林務局、內政部跟我參與都開過協調會啦太多次了我擔任快12年的立委這個議題不知道困擾我們多久到現在你們沒有一個單位有那樣子的承擔補充報告第一點就是\n301725\t330265\t你們說要修那個原開條例嘛特別提到那個白毛臺的那個案例嘛不只白毛臺 太多了 包括和平地區以這個案例來講的話我們現在就是因為我們行政院版的原住民保留地開發管理條例的那個案子現在目前已經在立法院了所以就要解決這些問題但是有沒有 就前幾天是不是有院長來協調啊 有協商啊 也沒有共識啊也沒有共識啊 所以這問題就代表這個會議也不可能有結果啦\n331394\t356024\t那行政部門你們的勇氣到底在哪裡?你們的承擔到底在哪裡?我們會願意把條例送到立法院就是要解決這些問題這些不完全是立法院的事情如果你們行政部門沒有辦法把這些事情做釐清也不願意去承擔這些責任的話你在立法院怎麼可能談得出共識?不可能有共識的每一個立委代表的都是不同的族群你怎麼有共識?\n357452\t386231\t對不對那你政府的行政責任在哪裡你們行政責任就是解決問題你要擔起來啊你們到底要怎麼做啊對不對你說可以有成豬也不見得大家都可以成豬喔並不是喔有些不能成豬的是因為它是超限利用才不能成豬的超限利用歸超限利用大部分案例是超限利用我現在講的是都是幾十年來人家就在那邊開墾的有些是藉由經濟問題甚至早期都還是政府鼓勵開墾的\n388033\t416869\t結果他現在可能連一個農民身份都拿不到為什麼因為土地問題要嘛沒有所有權要嘛沒有承租權沒有契約那現在如果要重新打契約的時候一堆新的規定又來了反正就是感覺就是說你們趕快走啦不要在這邊耕作了啦我土地要收回啦這就是我的原住民保留地這就是我的林保地我就不讓你們耕作了太多了遇到太多這樣子的個案了\n418482\t435869\t這些對岸過去也曾經被逼到被逼到自殺的也不是沒有啊我也處理過啊所以才會有監察院這個糾正案嘛難道這個在糾正立法院嗎這糾正你們欸怎麼會反過來糾...來...你來跟我們講說欸躺在立法院這根本是標準的卸責啊\n440489\t457675\t拖了多少年了那這些人如果啊主委主委你講話小型一點我可以講你們站在這個問題處理的立場上面如果還是這麼壓霸的態度的話你就是讓這些人不斷的抗議啊對不對\n460956\t470160\t法律案的問題是在協商的過程裡面沒辦法達成共識然後行政部門你們又挑起了什麼責任勒難道這個財安署要糾正我們喔是糾正你們勒你糾正你內政部內政部又推給什麼 原民會又推給國有財安署沒有答案啊到現在沒有啊不然你告訴我嘛 怎麼解決嘛\n489264\t513855\t這些人的抗爭這些人的訴求你告訴我怎麼解決我是一個民意代表我不是行政官員我也不是部長我能做的事情就是幫他們表達他們的訴求他們的意見他們的想法他們就是想要工作他們就是想要合法的在那邊這個組裝商在那邊勿攏他能不能在那邊勿攏下去嗎\n516274\t543447\t你不能把所有的人都打都一竿子打翻所有人好像他們通通都是不法的其實有很多人他也是合法站在那邊啊很多的案例都是取得層出權對不對會後也可以給委員做參考有一些有但有一些沒有不然不會不然不會有那麼多人他拿不到農保他甚至在天然災害受到影響的時候政府的補助他也沒有資格拿為什麼因為\n546547\t573712\t他沒有身份這裡面還涉及到很多其他的問題啦原案之間這我不要講可是我要跟你講的就是真正在那邊耕作的人他不見得有土地的使用權跟所有權過去因為政府沒有沒有一個法制化的管理所以造成這些土地因為被劃歸原住民保留地所以只有原住民才能夠有所有權對不對但是這些土地能不能賣\n575626\t603464\t你們的規定是怎麼樣你自己也很清楚可是中間呢就透過很多私人的這些他們的不管是租啦賣啦這些等等的然後也沒有去管理然後就最後造成真正在這上面種種果樹的啦 務農的啦他也沒有農民身份他也沒有辦法拿到農保相關的農業補助他也拿不到 為什麼因為土地身份沒有得到\n604366\t633638\t沒有得到證明沒有得到法律上面的一個合法的保障所以這是土地衍生出來它的身份問題我在這邊只是要求你們趕快解決這個問題而不是要你來這邊推卸責任那你難道你修了那個法這個問題就解決了嗎還有在這修法過程裡面你們所有的委員難道對這個問題能夠有共識嗎因為每個人背後所代表的\n634568\t663343\t不要說什麼,連族群的利益都不見得一樣所以這就是有賴你行政部門你們要去看法規上怎麼處理能夠得到最圓滿的解決我們要求就是這樣子而已所以你不要在這邊推卸責任沒有推卸責任那你就回去看怎麼樣面對這些抗爭所以把條例送到大院就是不是推卸責任那你告訴我嘛現在也沒有辦法解決啊你那個什麼條例也沒辦法解決啊的確就是沒有共識啊\n664584\t680535\t那沒有共識,不是尊重大院你要去處理那些問題啦不是尊重大院,阿不然要這個政府幹嘛對不對,你如果這個政府沒辦法解決問題,要這個政府幹嘛政府就是要處理問題的阿不能因為他複雜,阿就不處理阿所以你也答不出來阿\n","txt":"請召委要請內政部長還有原民會主委林部長、宜將主委請兩位好我想時間有限主要今天要針對這個土地問題\n那土地問題應該都跟兩個部位有關大家知道這個早期臺灣的這些早一點的農民、祖先等等在山地上開墾但後來因為有些土地又列為林保地、原保地特別是像原保地這些\n所以其實他們一路在訴求這個土地的權利不管是使用權或所有權這部分其實訴求很久那本是因為我的這個選區當中有不少都屬於這部分的這樣子的土地也很困擾\n過去不管是內政部、監察院、原民會其實你們都知道這個問題或許我不曉得部長你了不了解但是主委應該了解才對2010年的時候內政部曾經針對這個\n是否要放寬這環我土地計畫這件事情有開會也有一些決議但後來也不了了之那2021年7月今天才有一個直接糾正內政部關於這件事情就是說應該要有效的去處理\n那針對這個糾正案內政部當初認為說這不是我管轄的然後應該是有國有差案署又涉及到元寶地所以應該屬於原住民委員會不管怎麼樣到現在沒有處理啦所以這些人也只能抗爭也只能陳情也只能無奈因為\n當然有一些人或許他不是真的在耕作那大部分有不少人他是真的祖宗八大這樣子下來他就在那塊土地上面耕作可是他面臨到什麼他面臨到說使用權、所有權可能通通沒辦法那或許有一些你們說我來修法讓你去租用但是包括這一塊到現在我也沒有看到任何的處理進度\n所以導致這些人也只能不斷的抗爭不斷的陳情那有一些都已經好幾代了從他的阿公、爸爸到他現在這個產權各方面都還是不明的所以我想請教兩位就是說這到底是誰的事情如果涉及到這麼多部會的事情那為什麼行政院沒有一個政務委員出來協調勒\n然後就放任這個事情在那裡然後你們面對監察院的糾正也不理阿這是2021年的監察院7月份給你們糾正阿你們有處理嗎現在已經2023年了委員你提的是元寶地的問題對啊就是這一些元墾農他們的訴求嘛他們最早的稅就是還我土地嘛對不對不要讓這個事情變成是\n漢人跟原住民之間的變成這樣子的一個衝突不應該是這樣子他有他的歷史背景可是也不能因為過去的歷史到現在很複雜就把它丟著我想這也是為什麼監察院會去糾正你們的原因你們沒有處理就放任他在那邊拿到那個\n主委你沒有你沒有接受接受過這些陳情嗎跟委員報告原住民保留地非原住民是有可以有陳租錢那因為目前山坡地保育利用條例他是明定\n原住民保留地的所有錢遺傳是以原住民為限所以一般非原民的部分他的使用錢就是承租錢是還是可以的承租錢也不完整也不是大家都可以承租有一些他直接面臨收回\n有些個案是因為我們現在所遇到的有些是直接要求收回他也不再承諸所以原民會之前我找來協調的時候我也找了原民會、林務局、內政部跟我參與都開過協調會啦太多次了我擔任快12年的立委這個議題不知道困擾我們多久到現在你們沒有一個單位有那樣子的承擔補充報告第一點就是\n你們說要修那個原開條例嘛特別提到那個白毛臺的那個案例嘛不只白毛臺 太多了 包括和平地區以這個案例來講的話我們現在就是因為我們行政院版的原住民保留地開發管理條例的那個案子現在目前已經在立法院了所以就要解決這些問題但是有沒有 就前幾天是不是有院長來協調啊 有協商啊 也沒有共識啊也沒有共識啊 所以這問題就代表這個會議也不可能有結果啦\n那行政部門你們的勇氣到底在哪裡?你們的承擔到底在哪裡?我們會願意把條例送到立法院就是要解決這些問題這些不完全是立法院的事情如果你們行政部門沒有辦法把這些事情做釐清也不願意去承擔這些責任的話你在立法院怎麼可能談得出共識?不可能有共識的每一個立委代表的都是不同的族群你怎麼有共識?\n對不對那你政府的行政責任在哪裡你們行政責任就是解決問題你要擔起來啊你們到底要怎麼做啊對不對你說可以有成豬也不見得大家都可以成豬喔並不是喔有些不能成豬的是因為它是超限利用才不能成豬的超限利用歸超限利用大部分案例是超限利用我現在講的是都是幾十年來人家就在那邊開墾的有些是藉由經濟問題甚至早期都還是政府鼓勵開墾的\n結果他現在可能連一個農民身份都拿不到為什麼因為土地問題要嘛沒有所有權要嘛沒有承租權沒有契約那現在如果要重新打契約的時候一堆新的規定又來了反正就是感覺就是說你們趕快走啦不要在這邊耕作了啦我土地要收回啦這就是我的原住民保留地這就是我的林保地我就不讓你們耕作了太多了遇到太多這樣子的個案了\n這些對岸過去也曾經被逼到被逼到自殺的也不是沒有啊我也處理過啊所以才會有監察院這個糾正案嘛難道這個在糾正立法院嗎這糾正你們欸怎麼會反過來糾...來...你來跟我們講說欸躺在立法院這根本是標準的卸責啊\n拖了多少年了那這些人如果啊主委主委你講話小型一點我可以講你們站在這個問題處理的立場上面如果還是這麼壓霸的態度的話你就是讓這些人不斷的抗議啊對不對\n法律案的問題是在協商的過程裡面沒辦法達成共識然後行政部門你們又挑起了什麼責任勒難道這個財安署要糾正我們喔是糾正你們勒你糾正你內政部內政部又推給什麼 原民會又推給國有財安署沒有答案啊到現在沒有啊不然你告訴我嘛 怎麼解決嘛\n這些人的抗爭這些人的訴求你告訴我怎麼解決我是一個民意代表我不是行政官員我也不是部長我能做的事情就是幫他們表達他們的訴求他們的意見他們的想法他們就是想要工作他們就是想要合法的在那邊這個組裝商在那邊勿攏他能不能在那邊勿攏下去嗎\n你不能把所有的人都打都一竿子打翻所有人好像他們通通都是不法的其實有很多人他也是合法站在那邊啊很多的案例都是取得層出權對不對會後也可以給委員做參考有一些有但有一些沒有不然不會不然不會有那麼多人他拿不到農保他甚至在天然災害受到影響的時候政府的補助他也沒有資格拿為什麼因為\n他沒有身份這裡面還涉及到很多其他的問題啦原案之間這我不要講可是我要跟你講的就是真正在那邊耕作的人他不見得有土地的使用權跟所有權過去因為政府沒有沒有一個法制化的管理所以造成這些土地因為被劃歸原住民保留地所以只有原住民才能夠有所有權對不對但是這些土地能不能賣\n你們的規定是怎麼樣你自己也很清楚可是中間呢就透過很多私人的這些他們的不管是租啦賣啦這些等等的然後也沒有去管理然後就最後造成真正在這上面種種果樹的啦 務農的啦他也沒有農民身份他也沒有辦法拿到農保相關的農業補助他也拿不到 為什麼因為土地身份沒有得到\n沒有得到證明沒有得到法律上面的一個合法的保障所以這是土地衍生出來它的身份問題我在這邊只是要求你們趕快解決這個問題而不是要你來這邊推卸責任那你難道你修了那個法這個問題就解決了嗎還有在這修法過程裡面你們所有的委員難道對這個問題能夠有共識嗎因為每個人背後所代表的\n不要說什麼,連族群的利益都不見得一樣所以這就是有賴你行政部門你們要去看法規上怎麼處理能夠得到最圓滿的解決我們要求就是這樣子而已所以你不要在這邊推卸責任沒有推卸責任那你就回去看怎麼樣面對這些抗爭所以把條例送到大院就是不是推卸責任那你告訴我嘛現在也沒有辦法解決啊你那個什麼條例也沒辦法解決啊的確就是沒有共識啊\n那沒有共識,不是尊重大院你要去處理那些問題啦不是尊重大院,阿不然要這個政府幹嘛對不對,你如果這個政府沒辦法解決問題,要這個政府幹嘛政府就是要處理問題的阿不能因為他複雜,阿就不處理阿所以你也答不出來阿\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.191 --> 00:20.123\n請召委要請內政部長還有原民會主委林部長、宜將主委請兩位好我想時間有限主要今天要針對這個土地問題\n\n00:22.935 --> 00:42.515\n那土地問題應該都跟兩個部位有關大家知道這個早期臺灣的這些早一點的農民、祖先等等在山地上開墾但後來因為有些土地又列為林保地、原保地特別是像原保地這些\n\n00:43.576 --> 00:58.850\n所以其實他們一路在訴求這個土地的權利不管是使用權或所有權這部分其實訴求很久那本是因為我的這個選區當中有不少都屬於這部分的這樣子的土地也很困擾\n\n01:00.732 --> 01:14.384\n過去不管是內政部、監察院、原民會其實你們都知道這個問題或許我不曉得部長你了不了解但是主委應該了解才對2010年的時候內政部曾經針對這個\n\n01:17.447 --> 01:37.937\n是否要放寬這環我土地計畫這件事情有開會也有一些決議但後來也不了了之那2021年7月今天才有一個直接糾正內政部關於這件事情就是說應該要有效的去處理\n\n01:39.342 --> 01:58.002\n那針對這個糾正案內政部當初認為說這不是我管轄的然後應該是有國有差案署又涉及到元寶地所以應該屬於原住民委員會不管怎麼樣到現在沒有處理啦所以這些人也只能抗爭也只能陳情也只能無奈因為\n\n01:59.461 --> 02:26.360\n當然有一些人或許他不是真的在耕作那大部分有不少人他是真的祖宗八大這樣子下來他就在那塊土地上面耕作可是他面臨到什麼他面臨到說使用權、所有權可能通通沒辦法那或許有一些你們說我來修法讓你去租用但是包括這一塊到現在我也沒有看到任何的處理進度\n\n02:27.594 --> 02:52.928\n所以導致這些人也只能不斷的抗爭不斷的陳情那有一些都已經好幾代了從他的阿公、爸爸到他現在這個產權各方面都還是不明的所以我想請教兩位就是說這到底是誰的事情如果涉及到這麼多部會的事情那為什麼行政院沒有一個政務委員出來協調勒\n\n02:54.554 --> 03:07.059\n然後就放任這個事情在那裡然後你們面對監察院的糾正也不理阿這是2021年的監察院7月份給你們糾正阿你們有處理嗎現在已經2023年了委員你提的是元寶地的問題對啊就是這一些元墾農他們的訴求嘛他們最早的稅就是還我土地嘛對不對不要讓這個事情變成是\n\n03:25.238 --> 03:49.390\n漢人跟原住民之間的變成這樣子的一個衝突不應該是這樣子他有他的歷史背景可是也不能因為過去的歷史到現在很複雜就把它丟著我想這也是為什麼監察院會去糾正你們的原因你們沒有處理就放任他在那邊拿到那個\n\n03:53.413 --> 04:13.303\n主委你沒有你沒有接受接受過這些陳情嗎跟委員報告原住民保留地非原住民是有可以有陳租錢那因為目前山坡地保育利用條例他是明定\n\n04:14.727 --> 04:30.996\n原住民保留地的所有錢遺傳是以原住民為限所以一般非原民的部分他的使用錢就是承租錢是還是可以的承租錢也不完整也不是大家都可以承租有一些他直接面臨收回\n\n04:32.159 --> 05:00.155\n有些個案是因為我們現在所遇到的有些是直接要求收回他也不再承諸所以原民會之前我找來協調的時候我也找了原民會、林務局、內政部跟我參與都開過協調會啦太多次了我擔任快12年的立委這個議題不知道困擾我們多久到現在你們沒有一個單位有那樣子的承擔補充報告第一點就是\n\n05:01.725 --> 05:30.265\n你們說要修那個原開條例嘛特別提到那個白毛臺的那個案例嘛不只白毛臺太多了包括和平地區以這個案例來講的話我們現在就是因為我們行政院版的原住民保留地開發管理條例的那個案子現在目前已經在立法院了所以就要解決這些問題但是有沒有就前幾天是不是有院長來協調啊有協商啊也沒有共識啊也沒有共識啊所以這問題就代表這個會議也不可能有結果啦\n\n05:31.394 --> 05:56.024\n那行政部門你們的勇氣到底在哪裡?你們的承擔到底在哪裡?我們會願意把條例送到立法院就是要解決這些問題這些不完全是立法院的事情如果你們行政部門沒有辦法把這些事情做釐清也不願意去承擔這些責任的話你在立法院怎麼可能談得出共識?不可能有共識的每一個立委代表的都是不同的族群你怎麼有共識?\n\n05:57.452 --> 06:26.231\n對不對那你政府的行政責任在哪裡你們行政責任就是解決問題你要擔起來啊你們到底要怎麼做啊對不對你說可以有成豬也不見得大家都可以成豬喔並不是喔有些不能成豬的是因為它是超限利用才不能成豬的超限利用歸超限利用大部分案例是超限利用我現在講的是都是幾十年來人家就在那邊開墾的有些是藉由經濟問題甚至早期都還是政府鼓勵開墾的\n\n06:28.033 --> 06:56.869\n結果他現在可能連一個農民身份都拿不到為什麼因為土地問題要嘛沒有所有權要嘛沒有承租權沒有契約那現在如果要重新打契約的時候一堆新的規定又來了反正就是感覺就是說你們趕快走啦不要在這邊耕作了啦我土地要收回啦這就是我的原住民保留地這就是我的林保地我就不讓你們耕作了太多了遇到太多這樣子的個案了\n\n06:58.482 --> 07:15.869\n這些對岸過去也曾經被逼到被逼到自殺的也不是沒有啊我也處理過啊所以才會有監察院這個糾正案嘛難道這個在糾正立法院嗎這糾正你們欸怎麼會反過來糾...來...你來跟我們講說欸躺在立法院這根本是標準的卸責啊\n\n07:20.489 --> 07:37.675\n拖了多少年了那這些人如果啊主委主委你講話小型一點我可以講你們站在這個問題處理的立場上面如果還是這麼壓霸的態度的話你就是讓這些人不斷的抗議啊對不對\n\n07:40.956 --> 07:50.160\n法律案的問題是在協商的過程裡面沒辦法達成共識然後行政部門你們又挑起了什麼責任勒難道這個財安署要糾正我們喔是糾正你們勒你糾正你內政部內政部又推給什麼原民會又推給國有財安署沒有答案啊到現在沒有啊不然你告訴我嘛怎麼解決嘛\n\n08:09.264 --> 08:33.855\n這些人的抗爭這些人的訴求你告訴我怎麼解決我是一個民意代表我不是行政官員我也不是部長我能做的事情就是幫他們表達他們的訴求他們的意見他們的想法他們就是想要工作他們就是想要合法的在那邊這個組裝商在那邊勿攏他能不能在那邊勿攏下去嗎\n\n08:36.274 --> 09:03.447\n你不能把所有的人都打都一竿子打翻所有人好像他們通通都是不法的其實有很多人他也是合法站在那邊啊很多的案例都是取得層出權對不對會後也可以給委員做參考有一些有但有一些沒有不然不會不然不會有那麼多人他拿不到農保他甚至在天然災害受到影響的時候政府的補助他也沒有資格拿為什麼因為\n\n09:06.547 --> 09:33.712\n他沒有身份這裡面還涉及到很多其他的問題啦原案之間這我不要講可是我要跟你講的就是真正在那邊耕作的人他不見得有土地的使用權跟所有權過去因為政府沒有沒有一個法制化的管理所以造成這些土地因為被劃歸原住民保留地所以只有原住民才能夠有所有權對不對但是這些土地能不能賣\n\n09:35.626 --> 10:03.464\n你們的規定是怎麼樣你自己也很清楚可是中間呢就透過很多私人的這些他們的不管是租啦賣啦這些等等的然後也沒有去管理然後就最後造成真正在這上面種種果樹的啦務農的啦他也沒有農民身份他也沒有辦法拿到農保相關的農業補助他也拿不到為什麼因為土地身份沒有得到\n\n10:04.366 --> 10:33.638\n沒有得到證明沒有得到法律上面的一個合法的保障所以這是土地衍生出來它的身份問題我在這邊只是要求你們趕快解決這個問題而不是要你來這邊推卸責任那你難道你修了那個法這個問題就解決了嗎還有在這修法過程裡面你們所有的委員難道對這個問題能夠有共識嗎因為每個人背後所代表的\n\n10:34.568 --> 11:03.343\n不要說什麼,連族群的利益都不見得一樣所以這就是有賴你行政部門你們要去看法規上怎麼處理能夠得到最圓滿的解決我們要求就是這樣子而已所以你不要在這邊推卸責任沒有推卸責任那你就回去看怎麼樣面對這些抗爭所以把條例送到大院就是不是推卸責任那你告訴我嘛現在也沒有辦法解決啊你那個什麼條例也沒辦法解決啊的確就是沒有共識啊\n\n11:04.584 --> 11:20.535\n那沒有共識,不是尊重大院你要去處理那些問題啦不是尊重大院,阿不然要這個政府幹嘛對不對,你如果這個政府沒辦法解決問題,要這個政府幹嘛政府就是要處理問題的阿不能因為他複雜,阿就不處理阿所以你也答不出來阿\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.191,"end":20.123,"text":"請召委要請內政部長還有原民會主委林部長、宜將主委請兩位好我想時間有限主要今天要針對這個土地問題"},{"start":22.935,"end":42.515,"text":"那土地問題應該都跟兩個部位有關大家知道這個早期臺灣的這些早一點的農民、祖先等等在山地上開墾但後來因為有些土地又列為林保地、原保地特別是像原保地這些"},{"start":43.576,"end":58.85,"text":"所以其實他們一路在訴求這個土地的權利不管是使用權或所有權這部分其實訴求很久那本是因為我的這個選區當中有不少都屬於這部分的這樣子的土地也很困擾"},{"start":60.732,"end":74.384,"text":"過去不管是內政部、監察院、原民會其實你們都知道這個問題或許我不曉得部長你了不了解但是主委應該了解才對2010年的時候內政部曾經針對這個"},{"start":77.447,"end":97.937,"text":"是否要放寬這環我土地計畫這件事情有開會也有一些決議但後來也不了了之那2021年7月今天才有一個直接糾正內政部關於這件事情就是說應該要有效的去處理"},{"start":99.342,"end":118.002,"text":"那針對這個糾正案內政部當初認為說這不是我管轄的然後應該是有國有差案署又涉及到元寶地所以應該屬於原住民委員會不管怎麼樣到現在沒有處理啦所以這些人也只能抗爭也只能陳情也只能無奈因為"},{"start":119.461,"end":146.36,"text":"當然有一些人或許他不是真的在耕作那大部分有不少人他是真的祖宗八大這樣子下來他就在那塊土地上面耕作可是他面臨到什麼他面臨到說使用權、所有權可能通通沒辦法那或許有一些你們說我來修法讓你去租用但是包括這一塊到現在我也沒有看到任何的處理進度"},{"start":147.594,"end":172.928,"text":"所以導致這些人也只能不斷的抗爭不斷的陳情那有一些都已經好幾代了從他的阿公、爸爸到他現在這個產權各方面都還是不明的所以我想請教兩位就是說這到底是誰的事情如果涉及到這麼多部會的事情那為什麼行政院沒有一個政務委員出來協調勒"},{"start":174.554,"end":187.059,"text":"然後就放任這個事情在那裡然後你們面對監察院的糾正也不理阿這是2021年的監察院7月份給你們糾正阿你們有處理嗎現在已經2023年了委員你提的是元寶地的問題對啊就是這一些元墾農他們的訴求嘛他們最早的稅就是還我土地嘛對不對不要讓這個事情變成是"},{"start":205.238,"end":229.39,"text":"漢人跟原住民之間的變成這樣子的一個衝突不應該是這樣子他有他的歷史背景可是也不能因為過去的歷史到現在很複雜就把它丟著我想這也是為什麼監察院會去糾正你們的原因你們沒有處理就放任他在那邊拿到那個"},{"start":233.413,"end":253.303,"text":"主委你沒有你沒有接受接受過這些陳情嗎跟委員報告原住民保留地非原住民是有可以有陳租錢那因為目前山坡地保育利用條例他是明定"},{"start":254.727,"end":270.996,"text":"原住民保留地的所有錢遺傳是以原住民為限所以一般非原民的部分他的使用錢就是承租錢是還是可以的承租錢也不完整也不是大家都可以承租有一些他直接面臨收回"},{"start":272.159,"end":300.155,"text":"有些個案是因為我們現在所遇到的有些是直接要求收回他也不再承諸所以原民會之前我找來協調的時候我也找了原民會、林務局、內政部跟我參與都開過協調會啦太多次了我擔任快12年的立委這個議題不知道困擾我們多久到現在你們沒有一個單位有那樣子的承擔補充報告第一點就是"},{"start":301.725,"end":330.265,"text":"你們說要修那個原開條例嘛特別提到那個白毛臺的那個案例嘛不只白毛臺 太多了 包括和平地區以這個案例來講的話我們現在就是因為我們行政院版的原住民保留地開發管理條例的那個案子現在目前已經在立法院了所以就要解決這些問題但是有沒有 就前幾天是不是有院長來協調啊 有協商啊 也沒有共識啊也沒有共識啊 所以這問題就代表這個會議也不可能有結果啦"},{"start":331.394,"end":356.024,"text":"那行政部門你們的勇氣到底在哪裡?你們的承擔到底在哪裡?我們會願意把條例送到立法院就是要解決這些問題這些不完全是立法院的事情如果你們行政部門沒有辦法把這些事情做釐清也不願意去承擔這些責任的話你在立法院怎麼可能談得出共識?不可能有共識的每一個立委代表的都是不同的族群你怎麼有共識?"},{"start":357.452,"end":386.231,"text":"對不對那你政府的行政責任在哪裡你們行政責任就是解決問題你要擔起來啊你們到底要怎麼做啊對不對你說可以有成豬也不見得大家都可以成豬喔並不是喔有些不能成豬的是因為它是超限利用才不能成豬的超限利用歸超限利用大部分案例是超限利用我現在講的是都是幾十年來人家就在那邊開墾的有些是藉由經濟問題甚至早期都還是政府鼓勵開墾的"},{"start":388.033,"end":416.869,"text":"結果他現在可能連一個農民身份都拿不到為什麼因為土地問題要嘛沒有所有權要嘛沒有承租權沒有契約那現在如果要重新打契約的時候一堆新的規定又來了反正就是感覺就是說你們趕快走啦不要在這邊耕作了啦我土地要收回啦這就是我的原住民保留地這就是我的林保地我就不讓你們耕作了太多了遇到太多這樣子的個案了"},{"start":418.482,"end":435.869,"text":"這些對岸過去也曾經被逼到被逼到自殺的也不是沒有啊我也處理過啊所以才會有監察院這個糾正案嘛難道這個在糾正立法院嗎這糾正你們欸怎麼會反過來糾...來...你來跟我們講說欸躺在立法院這根本是標準的卸責啊"},{"start":440.489,"end":457.675,"text":"拖了多少年了那這些人如果啊主委主委你講話小型一點我可以講你們站在這個問題處理的立場上面如果還是這麼壓霸的態度的話你就是讓這些人不斷的抗議啊對不對"},{"start":460.956,"end":470.16,"text":"法律案的問題是在協商的過程裡面沒辦法達成共識然後行政部門你們又挑起了什麼責任勒難道這個財安署要糾正我們喔是糾正你們勒你糾正你內政部內政部又推給什麼 原民會又推給國有財安署沒有答案啊到現在沒有啊不然你告訴我嘛 怎麼解決嘛"},{"start":489.264,"end":513.855,"text":"這些人的抗爭這些人的訴求你告訴我怎麼解決我是一個民意代表我不是行政官員我也不是部長我能做的事情就是幫他們表達他們的訴求他們的意見他們的想法他們就是想要工作他們就是想要合法的在那邊這個組裝商在那邊勿攏他能不能在那邊勿攏下去嗎"},{"start":516.274,"end":543.447,"text":"你不能把所有的人都打都一竿子打翻所有人好像他們通通都是不法的其實有很多人他也是合法站在那邊啊很多的案例都是取得層出權對不對會後也可以給委員做參考有一些有但有一些沒有不然不會不然不會有那麼多人他拿不到農保他甚至在天然災害受到影響的時候政府的補助他也沒有資格拿為什麼因為"},{"start":546.547,"end":573.712,"text":"他沒有身份這裡面還涉及到很多其他的問題啦原案之間這我不要講可是我要跟你講的就是真正在那邊耕作的人他不見得有土地的使用權跟所有權過去因為政府沒有沒有一個法制化的管理所以造成這些土地因為被劃歸原住民保留地所以只有原住民才能夠有所有權對不對但是這些土地能不能賣"},{"start":575.626,"end":603.464,"text":"你們的規定是怎麼樣你自己也很清楚可是中間呢就透過很多私人的這些他們的不管是租啦賣啦這些等等的然後也沒有去管理然後就最後造成真正在這上面種種果樹的啦 務農的啦他也沒有農民身份他也沒有辦法拿到農保相關的農業補助他也拿不到 為什麼因為土地身份沒有得到"},{"start":604.366,"end":633.638,"text":"沒有得到證明沒有得到法律上面的一個合法的保障所以這是土地衍生出來它的身份問題我在這邊只是要求你們趕快解決這個問題而不是要你來這邊推卸責任那你難道你修了那個法這個問題就解決了嗎還有在這修法過程裡面你們所有的委員難道對這個問題能夠有共識嗎因為每個人背後所代表的"},{"start":634.568,"end":663.343,"text":"不要說什麼,連族群的利益都不見得一樣所以這就是有賴你行政部門你們要去看法規上怎麼處理能夠得到最圓滿的解決我們要求就是這樣子而已所以你不要在這邊推卸責任沒有推卸責任那你就回去看怎麼樣面對這些抗爭所以把條例送到大院就是不是推卸責任那你告訴我嘛現在也沒有辦法解決啊你那個什麼條例也沒辦法解決啊的確就是沒有共識啊"},{"start":664.584,"end":680.535,"text":"那沒有共識,不是尊重大院你要去處理那些問題啦不是尊重大院,阿不然要這個政府幹嘛對不對,你如果這個政府沒辦法解決問題,要這個政府幹嘛政府就是要處理問題的阿不能因為他複雜,阿就不處理阿所以你也答不出來阿"}]}}}}