{"id":148982,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148982","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a720295c49baac9895ff5d92351fad24fff329c986728e607a03220436e44e2df3ed965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉世芳","委員發言時間":"13:08:01 - 13:22:47","影片長度":"00:14:46","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精進作為」，併請內政部、教育部、勞動部列席，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":886,"end_time":"2023-12-11T13:22:47+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T13:08:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1326,"blocks":[["劉委員世芳：（13時8分）謝謝召委，現在時間比較晚了，我可不可以請一下部長，還有總督察長、法律事務司、聯三，還有訓練參謀、國防大學跟中科院？因為我要問三個問題。"],["主席：好，通通上來，總督察長室李中將，還有法律司……"],["劉委員世芳：請自己過來，好嗎？我先問一下部長，部長剛剛蔡適應委員有提到，臺灣高等檢察署的新聞稿有提到陳姓被告10人，現在只有一位叫做陳裕炘，他雖然是一個退役人員，但是是退役商人，請問一下你瞭不瞭解他有沒有被通緝？"],["邱部長國正：我知道這10人當中有3個是已經退的，7個是現役的。"],["劉委員世芳：我知道，就你所瞭解的部分，這個陳裕炘有沒有被通緝？"],["邱部長國正：有通緝。"],["劉委員世芳：有通緝了嘛？"],["邱部長國正：通緝了，有的好像已經跑到對岸。"],["劉委員世芳：是，有通緝，所以這個部分看起來，不管是7個人或是10個人，最後到法院判決的時候，應該都會觸犯到貪污治罪條例，甚至國安法，或者是情工法。我要請教一下，部長雖然可以看到這個是11月27日臺灣高等檢察署所發布的新聞稿，但是我們略為知道，不管是特種的像化學兵或是陸海空等等相關極精密的國防部內部資料，請問我們後續的補救方案或是亡羊補牢的方案，現在開始啟動了沒有？"],["邱部長國正：我們同步來啟動，因為當初這個案子一出以後，我們有很多要補強的，也就是人家講的損害管控……"],["劉委員世芳：是補強還是廢掉？我知道損害管控很重要，這種風險的部分。但是我要跟你講，這裡面有好多是極機密的部分，極機密要按照國防部內部的程序，還是必須要由譬如下面不管是哪一個軍種再上上來，但是這樣子的機制會不會太慢？我要跟部長提到的就是，因為這裡面太多極機密的部分，有沒有可能馬上先通案處理？譬如先把它撤掉或是先把所謂的舊案全部都一起否決掉，然後趕快重新擬定新的方案，而不是只有換湯不換藥。"],["邱部長國正：我們當然要同步在做。"],["劉委員世芳：你知道我的意思，那你什麼時候可以完成我所說的？依高檢署所發布的新聞稿，我相信你們從他的起訴判決書裡面一定會瞭解到國防部內部到底有哪一些極機密、機密，不管是陸海空三軍哪一個部分受到影響，現在要趕快亡羊補牢，部長，你可以答應我什麼時候可以把它完成補強的工作？"],["李總督察長兆明：報告委員，針對所有洩密的資料，剛剛前面已經有委員指導過，我們跟地方法院拿到起訴書相關的證據以後，會做成一個清單，然後將所有洩密出去的計畫全部修訂。"],["劉委員世芳：要作廢，對不對？"],["李總督察長兆明：是。"],["劉委員世芳：先作廢再修訂。我剛剛問的是什麼時候可以完成，這是你們內部的行政程序可以做到……"],["李總督察長兆明：這個在今年……"],["劉委員世芳：不需要經過臺灣高檢署同意啊！"],["李總督察長兆明：是，報告委員，這個在明年第一季就可以完成。"],["劉委員世芳：明年第一季？就表示從目前開始，你要3個月才完成，3個月裡面如果有任何其他境外的勢力來了，太慢了吧？"],["李總督察長兆明：是。"],["劉委員世芳：部長，極機密的部分可不可以儘快來完成？"],["李總督察長兆明：可以、可以。"],["邱部長國正：跟委員報告，我們只要有這個名稱以後，馬上就截止或作廢，這是可以很快做的。"],["劉委員世芳：對、是。"],["邱部長國正：拿到後就一個命令下去，他們就去追查及作廢了，其他也補強……"],["劉委員世芳：是，所以你可不可以就在這個禮拜內把極機密的部分趕快儘量把它截止或作廢？"],["邱部長國正：可以，我跟委員報告，我們只要拿到相關資料知道名稱以後，一個禮拜絕對綽綽有餘了。"],["劉委員世芳：一個禮拜喔！麻煩到時候拜託……"],["邱部長國正：只要我們跟法務單位拿到資料以後下命令去追，一個禮拜綽綽有餘。"],["劉委員世芳：新聞稿已經出來了，國防部是受害者嘛！所以儘量趕快找到相關資料，好嗎？"],["邱部長國正：好。"],["劉委員世芳：這是第一個。第二個我要問的就是葛明德這一位國防大學的教授。跟現役軍官遭吸收部分相關的首長可以先回去。我想問一下國防大學這個部分，他將研究成果跟中國籍人士申請專利，請問國防大學還有中科院怎麼看待這件事？請回應一下。"],["李教育長成中：跟委員報告，目前他跟對岸廠商申請專利的……"],["劉委員世芳：申請專利怎麼會是跟對岸廠商？一定是對岸的官方廠商機構，哪有去跟對岸的廠商申請專利？"],["李教育長成中：沒有……"],["劉委員世芳：你來看一下，這裡面的部分就是有關電鍍法製備高披覆性抗沾黏類陶瓷的部分，這個不是做碗，你要搞清楚啊！你要知道我們在國科會剛剛通過了幾個國家核心關鍵技術，有相關這些技術屬國防部主管就很多，包括碳纖維、碳高溫耐燒蝕技術等等這些，所以事實上你們不能把它等閒視之，覺得好像只是為了一點點錢，然後就申請中國專利，你們要搞清楚狀況。"],["李教育長成中：跟委員報告，媒體上面那些專利事實上跟我們學校持有的專利是沒有相關的，有些我們還在查證中，有些是不屬實的。"],["劉委員世芳：表示你還在查核當中，那我再問一下中科院，你瞭不瞭解？中科院也有若干的委託計畫給這位葛明德教授，我剛所說的用電鍍法製備高披覆性抗沾黏類陶瓷鍍膜技術，還有先進的環保鉻碳類陶瓷製程技術等等，有沒有牽涉到中科院自己內部認定是屬於關鍵技術或是屬於國防機密？"],["張院長忠誠：跟委員報告，這幾年來我們查了一下，葛明德跟我們中科院有14個案子。"],["劉委員世芳：對。"],["張院長忠誠：那14個案子都是基礎科學研究，也就是剛才有委員詢答，我們講了，基礎關鍵是依照三級的TRL，就是技術備便水準，所以這14個案子我們這兩天特別漏夜來查，它沒有涉及到機密。"],["劉委員世芳：好，但是這裡面是不是還有包含3個110年到112年先進系統工程研究中心？他是不是其中一個？"],["張院長忠誠：這個就不是中科院的範疇了……"],["劉委員世芳：請再查核清楚，好嗎？國防部或者是國防大學再查核清楚，有14案，這14案裡面是葛明德先生或是葛明德教授有涉案的部分，我們現在擔心的就是核心關鍵技術，如果沒有把它查清楚的話，你會認為只是一般的學研，甚至他跑到中國去申請專利的時候，申請完專利變成中國就可以無限被授權使用，我覺得這個非常糟糕。部長，您聽到這樣子的部分，你的指示是什麼？最近有沒有什麼樣子的方式來指示中科院或者國防大學？"],["邱部長國正：委員剛剛講的，我們已經交代了，不管是中科院也好或國防大學理工學院分別去查，但我們同步在做，第一個做的事情是完全把他移送法辦，原本他們還講要查到某個地步再移送，我想這個不用等，這兩個工作是同步在做。"],["劉委員世芳：好，就是部長已經指示乾脆移送法辦，不用再經過內部的行政調查，是嗎？"],["邱部長國正：不是，有行政調查，但移送法辦以後我們一樣要走我們的程序。"],["劉委員世芳：就是同步進行就對了？"],["邱部長國正：對，同步。"],["劉委員世芳：好，瞭解。同步進行，我想這樣才能夠真正遏止我們的關鍵技術外流，好嗎？"],["邱部長國正：是的。"],["劉委員世芳：部長，你指示要移送法辦的時間是什麼時候？"],["邱部長國正：我昨天就講了，禮拜六我知道以後打電話給國防大學校長，我有跟他講了。"],["劉委員世芳：是，但是12月8號為什麼國防大學自己對外說成立專案小組啟動調查？表示這是行政調查。"],["邱部長國正：所以那天……"],["劉委員世芳：國防大學有沒有收到部長的指示？"],["李教育長成中：跟委員報告，早上媒播出來之後，我們就立刻成立專案調查小組，然後這一整天就開始調查，然後也在研擬相關後續的作為。"],["劉委員世芳：有關移送法辦這件事情是由國防部移送法辦還是國防大學移送法辦？到底是誰？"],["邱部長國正：我要求他們。"],["劉委員世芳：是，所以教育長你所回應的是啟動調查，這就是我所說的，這叫做行政調查，你到底有沒有按照國防部長的指示移送法辦？"],["李教育長成中：有，確實有按照部長的指示來做……"],["劉委員世芳：函送法辦嘛！公文什麼時候出去的？"],["李教育長成中：今天上午。"],["劉委員世芳：今天上午才出去嘛？"],["李教育長成中：今天上午函送。"],["劉委員世芳：所以部長昨天指示，你們今天上午出去，這樣算是快，是不是？"],["李教育長成中：因為昨天是週日，我們已經有同仁在作業，今天早上是上班日，今天上午就會送走……"],["劉委員世芳：就會送走是表示還沒送，還是送了？"],["李教育長成中：已經函送出去了，已經批示發文了。"],["劉委員世芳：可以對外公布函送出去的時間讓我知道一下，好嗎？"],["李教育長成中：是。"],["劉委員世芳：再來，我想要請教部長，最近這兩天包括某個媒體也都在批評我們立法院即將二、三讀的軍事營區安全維護條例裡面是否涉及侵害到一般尤其是有關攝錄影這個部分，後來我們來查證一下，就是說在原來我們的法律有個要塞堡壘地帶法第四條第一款也是一樣，沒有受到國防部特別命令的話，不得為測量、攝影等等，如果有違反的話，其有期徒刑是一年到七年，但是同樣很類似的部分，放在軍事營區安全維護條例草案第六條是「非經軍事機關許可」。我是不是可以直接請沈中將來回應一下，請問這兩個之間的差別在哪裡？競合在哪裡？為什麼會對於有一些軍事迷有興趣、不一定涉及國家安全的人會對這個有些反彈？是不是請沈中將可以回答一下？"],["沈司長世偉：是，報告委員，跟委員簡單說明，要塞堡壘地帶法規範的是要塞堡壘，要塞堡壘必須經過公告，現在全部地區大概有22處，不是所有的營區都是要塞堡壘，而軍事營區安全維護條例所保護的客體是營區，我們作戰部門有概略統計過，大概有上千個營區。要塞堡壘地帶法第四條規範的罰則，就像委員剛剛講的，可能有到徒刑的處罰，而軍事營區安全維護條例第六條所規範的罰則，原則上是只有行政罰，並沒有到所謂刑罰的處罰。"],["劉委員世芳：是，除非他是……"],["沈司長世偉：程度不一樣。"],["劉委員世芳：對、對，但是為什麼大家會反彈就在於你所說的，要塞堡壘地帶法所牽涉到的範圍比較小、比較少。"],["沈司長世偉：是。"],["劉委員世芳：但是軍事營區的安全，就像你所說會有一千多個營區，很多人就會懷疑，出了這個鐵圍籬之外，我如果對著空中上面拍攝F-16或是我對著大樓上面拍攝，譬如海軍的活動等等，是不是已經影響到軍事營區安全維護條例？這個怎麼辦？"],["沈司長世偉：報告委員，單純這種對著天空拍攝飛機飛行的概況，或是拍攝戰車從馬路經過，通通都不在規範的範圍之內。"],["劉委員世芳：我建議沈中將要對外說清楚。"],["沈司長世偉：是。"],["劉委員世芳：臺灣也有很多軍事迷，他們純粹是軍事迷或是很多軍事攝影雜誌也很希望拍攝，尤其像最近海鯤號受到民眾的支持，滿意度非常高，我們自己對內，不管是這個機制的保存也好，或是保防，都做得還算不錯，如果我們把軍安條例無限擴大，讓他覺得拿個攝影機就會受到影響，甚至會有人拿著槍出來趕他走，這個部分如果沒有說清楚講明白會很糟糕，尤其是「非經軍事機關許可」，就我瞭解應該是要該營區裡面的指揮官許可才可以，是不是？"],["沈司長世偉：是。"],["劉委員世芳：還是門哨就可以許可？"],["沈司長世偉：如果是拍攝的相關許可的話，我們在後面會訂定7個辦法，也就是有7個子法。另外，哪些地方能拍不能拍或是哪些地方有管制，會有4個公告。該有的法規命令、該有的公告，我們都會按程序來做，誰有權許可、在什麼樣的營區由什麼樣的人可以許可等等，以及如果發覺有人違規該怎麼樣去通報、該怎麼樣請示，都會在相關的法規命令裡面來規範。"],["劉委員世芳：因為這裡面也牽涉到電視臺或者是其他的媒體，他們也很關心這個部分，所以未來要公告的時候，主管機關是放在國防部來主管，還是放在行政院主管會比較好？"],["沈司長世偉：報告……"],["劉委員世芳：因為行政院在主管的過程當中，他們會比較考慮到涉及到言論自由的部分，譬如電視臺或者是媒體等等，他們的管制方向跟國防部還會有一些必須要溝通的部分，如果純粹由國防部自己就軍安維護條例來當主管機關，會不會讓人家覺得有差池？會覺得國防部自己不願意受到任何其他媒體或者是正常媒體宣傳的競合作為？"],["沈司長世偉：跟委員報告，我們將來訂定法規命令，行政院也有規範，我們現在都在草擬，將來的法規命令要正式準備進行法規程序之前也會先預告，預告完了，行政院對這些也都會有指導，完全都要行政院同意了之後，最後要行政院核定之後才會生效執行。"],["劉委員世芳：你不能這樣講，法律不是這樣子的。立法院通過之後，行政院也只能按照立法院所通過的法條來處理。"],["沈司長世偉：是、是。"],["劉委員世芳：你不能說立法院通過之後，行政院又可以另外再下指導棋，不能這樣！"],["沈司長世偉：不會、不會，我們是照著法律授權……"],["劉委員世芳：你是學法的，你應該知道。對，要法律授權……"],["沈司長世偉：對，我們是照著法律授權的範圍……"],["劉委員世芳：所以法律授權放在行政院來訂定子法或者是其他行政命令會比較好，還是放在國防部會比較好？"],["沈司長世偉：報告委員，應該是放在國防部，這個我們先前就有討論過，我們是主管機關，由我們來訂定……"],["劉委員世芳：我先跟你提醒，因為再接著下來可能在四黨協商的時候，這個議題還是會被提出來，如果我們考量這個時間上的因素，希望趕快通過的話，恐怕對每個不同黨團之間的溝通或者是對外界的溝通要說清楚講明白，最後二、三讀通過才比較不會有其他的疑慮，好嗎？"],["沈司長世偉：是，我們會持續去說明。"],["劉委員世芳：好，謝謝，謝謝部長，謝謝各位。"],["沈司長世偉：謝謝委員。"],["主席：跟劉委員說明一下，那個協商過了，只是一週內要提7個辦法跟4個公告出來……"],["劉委員世芳：這個我知道！"],["主席：所以也請儘速提出來，我們再來詳細討論，就執行面當中，大家會比較質疑一點點……"],["劉委員世芳：二、三讀還沒有……"],["主席：對，二、三讀還沒有。"],["劉委員世芳：我剛剛講的是二、三讀。"],["主席：是，好，謝謝。","接下來蘇治芬、蘇治芬，蘇治芬委員不在。","翁重鈞、翁重鈞、翁重鈞，翁重鈞委員不在。","王鴻薇、王鴻薇、王鴻薇，王鴻薇委員不在。","蔡易餘、蔡易餘、蔡易餘，蔡易餘委員不在。","今天登記質詢的委員除不在場者外，都已經發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。本日會議有陳明文委員、蔡易餘委員、馬文君委員、趙天麟委員及陳超明委員提出書面質詢，列入紀錄，並刊登公報，請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復聯席各委員，並副知聯席會。今日委員口頭質詢未答復部分及要求補充資料者，請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供給各個委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","speakers":["廖婉汝","李德維","林昶佐","陳亭妃","陳以信","賴瑞隆","王定宇","楊瓊瓔","吳斯懷","江啟臣","林靜儀","何志偉","劉世芳","羅致政","蔡適應","邱臣遠","陳椒華","陳明文","蔡易餘","馬文君","趙天麟","陳超明"],"page_start":157,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精\n進作為」，並備質詢；二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1130201_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"148982","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148982","tool":"pyannote","id":"148982-pyannote"},"job_id":"zxfVuuALHNqkB4wY","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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138.47, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"換\"}, {\"word\": \"湯\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 138.47, \"end\": 138.49, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"換\"}, {\"word\": \"藥\"}]}, {\"start\": 148.257, \"end\": 165.249, \"text\": \"我相信你們從他的這個起訴判決書裡面一定會了解到我們國防部內部到底有哪一些極機密機密不管是哪一個陸海空三軍的部分受到影響那現在趕快做亡羊補牢那個部長你可以答應我什麼時候可以把它完成補牆的工作\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 148.257, \"end\": 148.397, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 148.397, \"end\": 148.577, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"信\", \"start\": 148.577, \"end\": 148.717, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 148.717, \"end\": 149.217, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 149.217, \"end\": 149.398, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 149.398, \"end\": 150.358, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 150.358, \"end\": 150.859, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"訴\"}, {\"word\": \"判\", \"start\": 150.859, 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0.982}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"配\", \"start\": 168.836, \"end\": 169.056, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 169.056, \"end\": 169.236, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 169.236, \"end\": 169.356, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"項\"}, {\"word\": \"研\", \"start\": 169.356, \"end\": 169.456, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"習\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 169.456, \"end\": 169.557, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"推\", \"start\": 169.557, \"end\": 170.557, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"總\"}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 170.557, \"end\": 170.778, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 170.778, \"end\": 170.898, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 170.898, \"end\": 170.918, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 170.918, \"end\": 170.938, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 170.938, 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188.171, \"end\": 190.574, \"text\": \"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 188.171, \"end\": 188.371, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 188.371, \"end\": 188.491, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 188.491, \"end\": 188.632, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 188.632, \"end\": 188.732, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 188.732, \"end\": 188.872, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 188.872, \"end\": 188.972, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 188.972, \"end\": 188.992, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 188.992, \"end\": 189.012, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 189.012, \"end\": 189.372, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 189.372, \"end\": 189.573, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 189.573, \"end\": 189.613, 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\"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"極\"}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"密\", \"start\": 210.596, \"end\": 210.736, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 210.736, \"end\": 210.896, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 210.896, \"end\": 211.056, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 211.056, \"end\": 211.316, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 211.316, \"end\": 211.436, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 211.436, \"end\": 211.576, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 211.576, \"end\": 211.756, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 211.756, \"end\": 212.637, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"盡\"}, {\"word\": \"快\", \"start\": 212.637, \"end\": 213.237, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 213.237, \"end\": 213.597, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 213.597, \"end\": 213.897, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", 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881.393, \"end\": 881.413, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,069 --> 00:00:00,890\n總督察長、法律事務司、訓練參謀、國防大學、中科院\n\n2\n00:00:19,485 --> 00:00:43,171\n因為我要問三個問題了督察室李中將還有法律師我先問一下部長部長剛剛蔡市委員有提到就是我們臺灣高檢署檢查署臺灣高等檢查署的新聞稿有提到有陳姓被告10人的部分那現在只有一位叫做陳玉新的部分他雖然是一個退役人員但是退役商人請問一下你了不了解他有沒有被通緝\n\n3\n00:00:44,625 --> 00:01:12,685\n我知道他這個10人當中有3個是已經退的7個是我們現役的我知道我是說這個陳玉新你所了解的部分他有沒有被通緝有通緝嘛有通緝的嘛有一個好像已經跑到所以這個部分看起來不管是7個人或是10個人最後到那個法院去判決的時候應該都是會觸犯到貪污自罪條例甚至國安法或者是一些勤工法的部分那我要請教一下\n\n4\n00:01:13,365 --> 00:01:34,150\n部長雖然可以看到說這個是11月27日台灣高等檢察署所發布的新聞稿但是我們略微知道就是不管是特種的像化學兵或是陸海空等等這些相關的極機密國防部內部的這個資料請問一下我們後續的這個補救方案或是亡羊補牢的方案現在開始啟動了沒有?\n\n5\n00:01:34,827 --> 00:02:02,437\n我們同步來啟動因為當初這案子一出以後啊我們有很多這個叫做等下補強避免人家講損害管控啊我知道損害管控很重要這種風險的部分但是我要跟你講說這裡面有好多是極精密的部分但是極精密的話要按照我們國防部內部的程序還是必須要由這個比如說下面的不管是哪一個軍種再上上來但是這樣子的機制會不會太慢\n\n6\n00:02:04,204 --> 00:02:18,490\n我要跟部長提到的部分就是說因為這裡面太多極機密的部分有沒有可能馬上先通案譬如說先把它撤掉或是說先把這個所謂的舊案全部都一起否決掉然後趕快重新擬定新的方案而不是只有換湯不換藥\n\n7\n00:02:28,257 --> 00:02:45,249\n我相信你們從他的這個起訴判決書裡面一定會了解到我們國防部內部到底有哪一些極機密機密不管是哪一個陸海空三軍的部分受到影響那現在趕快做亡羊補牢那個部長你可以答應我什麼時候可以把它完成補牆的工作\n\n8\n00:02:47,555 --> 00:03:07,651\n我們配合各項研習的推論總統,有沒有話要講?報告委員,這個所有洩密的資料我們剛剛前面已經有委員指導過我們去跟這個地方法院拿到起訴書相關的證據以後我們會做成一個清單然後將所有洩密出去的計畫全部做一個修訂\n\n9\n00:03:08,171 --> 00:03:10,574\n二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員\n\n10\n00:03:30,416 --> 00:03:42,081\n市長,極機密的部分可不可以盡快來完成?可以可以,我們只要有這個名稱以後啊,下單就是這個馬上就截止或作廢。這個是可以很快做的。\n\n11\n00:03:43,919 --> 00:03:46,641\n二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員\n\n12\n00:04:07,895 --> 00:04:33,491\n他已經新聞搞出來了所以國防部是受害者嘛所以盡量趕快找到相關資料好嗎?好這第一個那第二個呢我要問的就是葛明德這個這一位啊國防大學的教授那個跟這個所謂的現役軍官遭吸收了部分的相關的這個這個首長可以先回去我想問一下國防大學的這個部分啊將研究成果跟中國籍人士來申請專利請問國防大學還有中科院怎麼看待這件事?\n\n13\n00:04:35,875 --> 00:05:00,615\n來,請回應一下跟委員報告那目前他在那個跟對岸廠商申請那個專利的那個發明申請專利怎麼會跟對岸廠商一定是對岸的官方機構啊哪有去跟對岸的廠商申請專利你來看一下它裡面的部分是有關電鍍法來自備高批負性的這個沾黏這個陶瓷類的部分這個不是做完欸你要搞清楚啊\n\n14\n00:05:01,095 --> 00:05:19,851\n你要知道我們在國客會剛剛通過了幾個國家核心關鍵技術裡面有相關的這些技術在國防部主管就很多包括碳纖維、高溫耐燒、熔石技術等等這些所以事實上你們不能把它等閒視之好像覺得只是為了一點點錢然後就申請中國專利你們沒搞清楚狀況啊\n\n15\n00:05:20,512 --> 00:05:35,541\n公委員報告媒體上面那些專利事實上是跟我們學校持有的專利是沒有相關的我們還在查案中有些是不屬實的表示你還在查的當中那我再問一下中科院你了不了解\n\n16\n00:05:36,221 --> 00:05:56,354\n中科院也若干的委託計畫給這位葛明德教授我剛所說的用電鍍法制備高批負性的抗沾黏的類陶瓷鍍膜技術還有先進的環保、落炭類陶瓷製成技術等等這些有沒有牽涉到中科院自己內部認定的是屬於關鍵技術或是屬於國防機密\n\n17\n00:05:58,775 --> 00:06:27,461\n各位報告這十年來我們查了一下葛明德跟我們中科院案有14個案子那14個案子都是基礎科學研究也就是剛才有委員詢答我們講了基礎關鍵是一到三級的TIL基礎備備水準這14個案子我們昨天這兩天特別漏月來查它沒有涉及到機密但是它裡面是不是還有包含三個從110年到112年的先進系統工程研究中心它是不是其中的一個\n\n18\n00:06:30,989 --> 00:06:55,654\n請再查核清楚好嗎?國防部或者是國防大學再查核清楚有十四案十四案裡面是葛明德先生或是葛明德教授有涉案的部分我們現在擔心的就是核心關鍵技術如果沒有把它查清楚的話你會認為只是一般的學研甚至他跑到中國去申請專利的時候申請完專利那變成中國就可以無限被授權來使用我覺得是這個非常糟糕啊部長\n\n19\n00:06:56,754 --> 00:07:21,881\n您聽到這樣子的部分的話,你的指示是什麼?有沒有最近跟中科院或者國防大學做一下什麼樣子的方式來指示他們?委員長講到我們已經交代了,不管是中科院也好,或國防大學、理工學院分別去查。但我們同步在做,第一個做的事情是完全把輿送法辦了。原本他們還講要查到某個地步再輿送,我想這個不用等,這兩個工作同步在做的。\n\n20\n00:07:22,681 --> 00:07:42,372\n就是部長你已經指示說就乾脆移送法辦不用再經過內部的行政調查是嗎?不是,就是要行政調查是移送法辦以後我們一樣要說我們程序嘛。就是同步進行就對了。對,同步做。好了解,同步進行我想這樣才能夠真正遏止我們的關鍵技術外流好嗎?是的。那那個部長你指示要移送法辦的時間是什麼時候?\n\n21\n00:07:43,997 --> 00:07:49,643\n但是12月8號的時候為什麼國防大學自己都要講說成立專案小組啟動調查,這表示是行政調查啊?國防大學有沒有收到那個部長的指示?\n\n22\n00:08:05,979 --> 00:08:06,199\n國防部議員\n\n23\n00:08:22,325 --> 00:08:47,592\n是啊,所以國防大學教育長你所回應的是你啟動調查,這就是我所說的,這叫行政調查啊那你到底有沒有按照國防部長的指示就是移送法辦有,有確實的按照部長的指示來做那個安送法辦嘛,什麼時候出去的?公文今天上午今天上午才出去嘛今天上午會,是,今天上午請這個做寒送所以部長昨天指示你們今天上午出去,這樣算是快,是不是?\n\n24\n00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:59,514\n昨天是週日我們已經有同仁在作業然後今天早上是上班日然後今天上午就會出手就會送走是表示還沒送還是送了?\n\n25\n00:09:01,019 --> 00:09:03,600\n最近這兩天包括某個媒體也都在批評就是說我們立法院即將二三讀的這個軍事營區安全維護條例裡面\n\n26\n00:09:22,390 --> 00:09:37,262\n是否為涉及就是說侵害到有一般尤其是什麼露營啊射露營這個部分後來我們來查證一下的部分就是說在原來啊我們那個法律有個要塞堡壘地帶法的地帶法的第四條第一款也是一樣\n\n27\n00:09:37,862 --> 00:09:57,318\n沒有受到國防部的特別命令的話不得為測量、攝影等等這些如果有違反的話呢它的有期徒刑是在一年到七年那但是呢同樣很類似的部分放在我們的軍事營區的安全而物條例裡面第六條的審查裡面是非經軍事居關許可我想我是不是可以直接請這個省中將來回應一下請問這兩個之間的差別在哪裡?競合在哪裡?\n\n28\n00:10:02,622 --> 00:10:25,663\n為什麼會有一些就是說對於軍事迷他們有興趣不一定涉及國家安全的人會對這個有些反彈是不是請沈中將可以來回答一下是報告委員跟委員做簡單的說明要塞堡壘地帶法它規範的是要塞堡壘要塞堡壘它必須經過公告那現在在我們全部地區大概有22處不是所有的營區都是要塞堡壘\n\n29\n00:10:26,323 --> 00:10:49,617\n那軍事營區安全維護條例它的保護的課題是營區我們作戰部門有概略統計過大概有上千個營區那藥材保理第二法第四條它規範的罰則就像委員剛剛講的它可能有到徒刑的處罰那軍事營區安全維護條例它第六條裡面所規範的罰則那個只有原來上面原則上是只有行政法並沒有到並沒有到所謂刑罰的處罰\n\n30\n00:10:50,538 --> 00:10:53,642\n二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員\n\n31\n00:11:10,282 --> 00:11:21,171\n我如果對著空中上面拍攝F16或是我對著這個大樓上面拍攝譬如說我們海軍的活動等等這些那是不是已經影響到軍事營區安全維護的條例?這個怎麼辦?單純這種你對著天空拍攝這個飛機的飛行的概況或是說我們有戰車經過馬路的從馬路經過你拍攝這個這個通通都不在規範的範圍之內那我建議是\n\n32\n00:11:35,903 --> 00:11:50,975\n拜託省中將要對外說清楚,台灣也很多軍事迷,他們純粹是軍事迷或是我們很多的軍事攝影雜誌也很希望拍攝,尤其像我們最近海昆號其實受到這個民眾的支持滿意度是非常高,那我們自己對內\n\n33\n00:11:52,076 --> 00:11:52,316\n二、審查本院委員\n\n34\n00:12:12,105 --> 00:12:29,168\n尤其是非經濟事機關許可就我了解應該是說該營區裡面的指揮官要許可才可以是不是?還是門哨就可以許可?如果要拍攝相關的許可的話我們會在後面有定的有七個辦法有七個執法\n\n35\n00:12:29,828 --> 00:12:54,468\n另外哪些地方能拍不能拍或是哪些地方有管制有四個公告該有的法規命令該有的公告我們都會按著程序來做誰有權許可在什麼樣的營區有什麼樣的人可以做許可等等那如果發覺有人違規該怎麼樣去做通報該怎麼樣請示都會在相關的法規命令裡面來規範因為這裡面也牽涉到如果說是電視台或者是其他的媒體他們也會很關心這個部分\n\n36\n00:12:56,730 --> 00:13:17,718\n所以我們未來要公告的時候或是未來要主管機關放在還是放在國防部來主管還是放在行政院主管會比較好因為行政院在主管的過程當中他們會比較考慮到涉及到言論自由比如說是電視台或者是媒體等等這些他們的這個管制的方向會跟國防部還會有一些必須要溝通的\n\n37\n00:13:18,038 --> 00:13:18,938\n國防部會否不願意受到媒體宣傳禁核?\n\n38\n00:13:35,424 --> 00:13:55,241\n我跟委員報告我們將來定法規命令行政院也有規範我們現在都在朝你將來的法規命令要正式要準備要進行法規程序之前也會先做預告那預告完了行政院對這些也都會有點都會有指導完全都要行政院同意了之後最後才會行政院要核定你不能這樣講法律不是這樣子的\n\n39\n00:13:55,922 --> 00:14:17,407\n立法院通過之後,行政院也只能按照立法院所通過的法條來處理。你不能說立法院通過之後,我行政院可以另外再下指導期。不能這樣子。我們是照著法律授權。對,我們是照著法律授權的範圍。所以法律授權放在行政院執法或者是其他的行政命令的話會比較好,還是放在國防部會比較好?\n\n40\n00:14:17,915 --> 00:14:41,413\n二、報委應該是放在國防部這個我們先前就有討論過我們是主管機關有我們來定我先跟你提醒了因為再接著下來可能我們在四黨協商的時候呢這個議題還是會被提出來那如果我們考量這個時間上的因素希望趕快通過的話恐怕對每個不同的黨團之間的溝通或者是對外界的溝通要說清楚講明白最後二三度通過才比較不會有其他的疑慮好嗎我們會持續去說明謝謝部長謝謝各位\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n69\t890\t總督察長、法律事務司、訓練參謀、國防大學、中科院\n19485\t43171\t因為我要問三個問題了督察室李中將還有法律師我先問一下部長部長剛剛蔡市委員有提到就是我們臺灣高檢署檢查署臺灣高等檢查署的新聞稿有提到有陳姓被告10人的部分那現在只有一位叫做陳玉新的部分他雖然是一個退役人員但是退役商人請問一下你了不了解他有沒有被通緝\n44625\t72685\t我知道他這個10人當中有3個是已經退的7個是我們現役的我知道我是說這個陳玉新你所了解的部分他有沒有被通緝有通緝嘛有通緝的嘛有一個好像已經跑到所以這個部分看起來不管是7個人或是10個人最後到那個法院去判決的時候應該都是會觸犯到貪污自罪條例甚至國安法或者是一些勤工法的部分那我要請教一下\n73365\t94150\t部長雖然可以看到說這個是11月27日台灣高等檢察署所發布的新聞稿但是我們略微知道就是不管是特種的像化學兵或是陸海空等等這些相關的極機密國防部內部的這個資料請問一下我們後續的這個補救方案或是亡羊補牢的方案現在開始啟動了沒有?\n94827\t122437\t我們同步來啟動因為當初這案子一出以後啊我們有很多這個叫做等下補強避免人家講損害管控啊我知道損害管控很重要這種風險的部分但是我要跟你講說這裡面有好多是極精密的部分但是極精密的話要按照我們國防部內部的程序還是必須要由這個比如說下面的不管是哪一個軍種再上上來但是這樣子的機制會不會太慢\n124204\t138490\t我要跟部長提到的部分就是說因為這裡面太多極機密的部分有沒有可能馬上先通案譬如說先把它撤掉或是說先把這個所謂的舊案全部都一起否決掉然後趕快重新擬定新的方案而不是只有換湯不換藥\n148257\t165249\t我相信你們從他的這個起訴判決書裡面一定會了解到我們國防部內部到底有哪一些極機密機密不管是哪一個陸海空三軍的部分受到影響那現在趕快做亡羊補牢那個部長你可以答應我什麼時候可以把它完成補牆的工作\n167555\t187651\t我們配合各項研習的推論總統,有沒有話要講?報告委員,這個所有洩密的資料我們剛剛前面已經有委員指導過我們去跟這個地方法院拿到起訴書相關的證據以後我們會做成一個清單然後將所有洩密出去的計畫全部做一個修訂\n188171\t190574\t二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員\n210416\t222081\t市長,極機密的部分可不可以盡快來完成?可以可以,我們只要有這個名稱以後啊,下單就是這個馬上就截止或作廢。這個是可以很快做的。\n223919\t226641\t二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員\n247895\t273491\t他已經新聞搞出來了所以國防部是受害者嘛所以盡量趕快找到相關資料好嗎?好這第一個那第二個呢我要問的就是葛明德這個這一位啊國防大學的教授那個跟這個所謂的現役軍官遭吸收了部分的相關的這個這個首長可以先回去我想問一下國防大學的這個部分啊將研究成果跟中國籍人士來申請專利請問國防大學還有中科院怎麼看待這件事?\n275875\t300615\t來,請回應一下跟委員報告那目前他在那個跟對岸廠商申請那個專利的那個發明申請專利怎麼會跟對岸廠商一定是對岸的官方機構啊哪有去跟對岸的廠商申請專利你來看一下它裡面的部分是有關電鍍法來自備高批負性的這個沾黏這個陶瓷類的部分這個不是做完欸你要搞清楚啊\n301095\t319851\t你要知道我們在國客會剛剛通過了幾個國家核心關鍵技術裡面有相關的這些技術在國防部主管就很多包括碳纖維、高溫耐燒、熔石技術等等這些所以事實上你們不能把它等閒視之好像覺得只是為了一點點錢然後就申請中國專利你們沒搞清楚狀況啊\n320512\t335541\t公委員報告媒體上面那些專利事實上是跟我們學校持有的專利是沒有相關的我們還在查案中有些是不屬實的表示你還在查的當中那我再問一下中科院你了不了解\n336221\t356354\t中科院也若干的委託計畫給這位葛明德教授我剛所說的用電鍍法制備高批負性的抗沾黏的類陶瓷鍍膜技術還有先進的環保、落炭類陶瓷製成技術等等這些有沒有牽涉到中科院自己內部認定的是屬於關鍵技術或是屬於國防機密\n358775\t387461\t各位報告這十年來我們查了一下葛明德跟我們中科院案有14個案子那14個案子都是基礎科學研究也就是剛才有委員詢答我們講了基礎關鍵是一到三級的TIL基礎備備水準這14個案子我們昨天這兩天特別漏月來查它沒有涉及到機密但是它裡面是不是還有包含三個從110年到112年的先進系統工程研究中心它是不是其中的一個\n390989\t415654\t請再查核清楚好嗎?國防部或者是國防大學再查核清楚有十四案十四案裡面是葛明德先生或是葛明德教授有涉案的部分我們現在擔心的就是核心關鍵技術如果沒有把它查清楚的話你會認為只是一般的學研甚至他跑到中國去申請專利的時候申請完專利那變成中國就可以無限被授權來使用我覺得是這個非常糟糕啊部長\n416754\t441881\t您聽到這樣子的部分的話,你的指示是什麼?有沒有最近跟中科院或者國防大學做一下什麼樣子的方式來指示他們?委員長講到我們已經交代了,不管是中科院也好,或國防大學、理工學院分別去查。但我們同步在做,第一個做的事情是完全把輿送法辦了。原本他們還講要查到某個地步再輿送,我想這個不用等,這兩個工作同步在做的。\n442681\t462372\t就是部長你已經指示說就乾脆移送法辦不用再經過內部的行政調查是嗎?不是,就是要行政調查是移送法辦以後我們一樣要說我們程序嘛。就是同步進行就對了。對,同步做。好了解,同步進行我想這樣才能夠真正遏止我們的關鍵技術外流好嗎?是的。那那個部長你指示要移送法辦的時間是什麼時候?\n463997\t469643\t但是12月8號的時候為什麼國防大學自己都要講說成立專案小組啟動調查,這表示是行政調查啊?國防大學有沒有收到那個部長的指示?\n485979\t486199\t國防部議員\n502325\t527592\t是啊,所以國防大學教育長你所回應的是你啟動調查,這就是我所說的,這叫行政調查啊那你到底有沒有按照國防部長的指示就是移送法辦有,有確實的按照部長的指示來做那個 安送法辦嘛,什麼時候出去的?公文今天上午今天上午才出去嘛今天上午會,是,今天上午請這個做寒送 所以部長昨天指示你們今天上午出去,這樣算是快,是不是?\n530520\t539514\t昨天是週日我們已經有同仁在作業然後今天早上是上班日然後今天上午就會出手就會送走是表示還沒送還是送了?\n541019\t543600\t最近這兩天包括某個媒體也都在批評就是說我們立法院即將二三讀的這個軍事營區安全維護條例裡面\n562390\t577262\t是否為涉及就是說侵害到有一般尤其是什麼露營啊射露營這個部分後來我們來查證一下的部分就是說在原來啊我們那個法律有個要塞堡壘地帶法的地帶法的第四條第一款也是一樣\n577862\t597318\t沒有受到國防部的特別命令的話不得為測量、攝影等等這些如果有違反的話呢它的有期徒刑是在一年到七年那但是呢同樣很類似的部分放在我們的軍事營區的安全而物條例裡面第六條的審查裡面是非經軍事居關許可我想我是不是可以直接請這個省中將來回應一下請問這兩個之間的差別在哪裡?競合在哪裡?\n602622\t625663\t為什麼會有一些就是說對於軍事迷他們有興趣不一定涉及國家安全的人會對這個有些反彈是不是請沈中將可以來回答一下是報告委員跟委員做簡單的說明要塞堡壘地帶法它規範的是要塞堡壘要塞堡壘它必須經過公告那現在在我們全部地區大概有22處不是所有的營區都是要塞堡壘\n626323\t649617\t那軍事營區安全維護條例它的保護的課題是營區我們作戰部門有概略統計過大概有上千個營區那藥材保理第二法第四條它規範的罰則就像委員剛剛講的它可能有到徒刑的處罰那軍事營區安全維護條例它第六條裡面所規範的罰則那個只有原來上面原則上是只有行政法並沒有到並沒有到所謂刑罰的處罰\n650538\t653642\t二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員\n670282\t681171\t我如果對著空中上面拍攝F16或是我對著這個大樓上面拍攝譬如說我們海軍的活動等等這些那是不是已經影響到軍事營區安全維護的條例?這個怎麼辦?單純這種你對著天空拍攝這個飛機的飛行的概況或是說我們有戰車經過馬路的從馬路經過你拍攝這個這個通通都不在規範的範圍之內那我建議是\n695903\t710975\t拜託省中將要對外說清楚,台灣也很多軍事迷,他們純粹是軍事迷或是我們很多的軍事攝影雜誌也很希望拍攝,尤其像我們最近海昆號其實受到這個民眾的支持滿意度是非常高,那我們自己對內\n712076\t712316\t二、審查本院委員\n732105\t749168\t尤其是非經濟事機關許可就我了解應該是說該營區裡面的指揮官要許可才可以是不是?還是門哨就可以許可?如果要拍攝相關的許可的話我們會在後面有定的有七個辦法有七個執法\n749828\t774468\t另外哪些地方能拍不能拍或是哪些地方有管制有四個公告該有的法規命令該有的公告我們都會按著程序來做誰有權許可在什麼樣的營區有什麼樣的人可以做許可等等那如果發覺有人違規該怎麼樣去做通報該怎麼樣請示都會在相關的法規命令裡面來規範因為這裡面也牽涉到如果說是電視台或者是其他的媒體他們也會很關心這個部分\n776730\t797718\t所以我們未來要公告的時候或是未來要主管機關放在還是放在國防部來主管還是放在行政院主管會比較好因為行政院在主管的過程當中他們會比較考慮到涉及到言論自由比如說是電視台或者是媒體等等這些他們的這個管制的方向會跟國防部還會有一些必須要溝通的\n798038\t798938\t國防部會否不願意受到媒體宣傳禁核?\n815424\t835241\t我跟委員報告我們將來定法規命令行政院也有規範我們現在都在朝你將來的法規命令要正式要準備要進行法規程序之前也會先做預告那預告完了行政院對這些也都會有點都會有指導完全都要行政院同意了之後最後才會行政院要核定你不能這樣講法律不是這樣子的\n835922\t857407\t立法院通過之後,行政院也只能按照立法院所通過的法條來處理。你不能說立法院通過之後,我行政院可以另外再下指導期。不能這樣子。我們是照著法律授權。對,我們是照著法律授權的範圍。所以法律授權放在行政院執法或者是其他的行政命令的話會比較好,還是放在國防部會比較好?\n857915\t881413\t二、報委應該是放在國防部這個我們先前就有討論過我們是主管機關有我們來定我先跟你提醒了因為再接著下來可能我們在四黨協商的時候呢這個議題還是會被提出來那如果我們考量這個時間上的因素希望趕快通過的話恐怕對每個不同的黨團之間的溝通或者是對外界的溝通要說清楚講明白最後二三度通過才比較不會有其他的疑慮好嗎我們會持續去說明謝謝部長謝謝各位\n","txt":"總督察長、法律事務司、訓練參謀、國防大學、中科院\n因為我要問三個問題了督察室李中將還有法律師我先問一下部長部長剛剛蔡市委員有提到就是我們臺灣高檢署檢查署臺灣高等檢查署的新聞稿有提到有陳姓被告10人的部分那現在只有一位叫做陳玉新的部分他雖然是一個退役人員但是退役商人請問一下你了不了解他有沒有被通緝\n我知道他這個10人當中有3個是已經退的7個是我們現役的我知道我是說這個陳玉新你所了解的部分他有沒有被通緝有通緝嘛有通緝的嘛有一個好像已經跑到所以這個部分看起來不管是7個人或是10個人最後到那個法院去判決的時候應該都是會觸犯到貪污自罪條例甚至國安法或者是一些勤工法的部分那我要請教一下\n部長雖然可以看到說這個是11月27日台灣高等檢察署所發布的新聞稿但是我們略微知道就是不管是特種的像化學兵或是陸海空等等這些相關的極機密國防部內部的這個資料請問一下我們後續的這個補救方案或是亡羊補牢的方案現在開始啟動了沒有?\n我們同步來啟動因為當初這案子一出以後啊我們有很多這個叫做等下補強避免人家講損害管控啊我知道損害管控很重要這種風險的部分但是我要跟你講說這裡面有好多是極精密的部分但是極精密的話要按照我們國防部內部的程序還是必須要由這個比如說下面的不管是哪一個軍種再上上來但是這樣子的機制會不會太慢\n我要跟部長提到的部分就是說因為這裡面太多極機密的部分有沒有可能馬上先通案譬如說先把它撤掉或是說先把這個所謂的舊案全部都一起否決掉然後趕快重新擬定新的方案而不是只有換湯不換藥\n我相信你們從他的這個起訴判決書裡面一定會了解到我們國防部內部到底有哪一些極機密機密不管是哪一個陸海空三軍的部分受到影響那現在趕快做亡羊補牢那個部長你可以答應我什麼時候可以把它完成補牆的工作\n我們配合各項研習的推論總統,有沒有話要講?報告委員,這個所有洩密的資料我們剛剛前面已經有委員指導過我們去跟這個地方法院拿到起訴書相關的證據以後我們會做成一個清單然後將所有洩密出去的計畫全部做一個修訂\n二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員\n市長,極機密的部分可不可以盡快來完成?可以可以,我們只要有這個名稱以後啊,下單就是這個馬上就截止或作廢。這個是可以很快做的。\n二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員\n他已經新聞搞出來了所以國防部是受害者嘛所以盡量趕快找到相關資料好嗎?好這第一個那第二個呢我要問的就是葛明德這個這一位啊國防大學的教授那個跟這個所謂的現役軍官遭吸收了部分的相關的這個這個首長可以先回去我想問一下國防大學的這個部分啊將研究成果跟中國籍人士來申請專利請問國防大學還有中科院怎麼看待這件事?\n來,請回應一下跟委員報告那目前他在那個跟對岸廠商申請那個專利的那個發明申請專利怎麼會跟對岸廠商一定是對岸的官方機構啊哪有去跟對岸的廠商申請專利你來看一下它裡面的部分是有關電鍍法來自備高批負性的這個沾黏這個陶瓷類的部分這個不是做完欸你要搞清楚啊\n你要知道我們在國客會剛剛通過了幾個國家核心關鍵技術裡面有相關的這些技術在國防部主管就很多包括碳纖維、高溫耐燒、熔石技術等等這些所以事實上你們不能把它等閒視之好像覺得只是為了一點點錢然後就申請中國專利你們沒搞清楚狀況啊\n公委員報告媒體上面那些專利事實上是跟我們學校持有的專利是沒有相關的我們還在查案中有些是不屬實的表示你還在查的當中那我再問一下中科院你了不了解\n中科院也若干的委託計畫給這位葛明德教授我剛所說的用電鍍法制備高批負性的抗沾黏的類陶瓷鍍膜技術還有先進的環保、落炭類陶瓷製成技術等等這些有沒有牽涉到中科院自己內部認定的是屬於關鍵技術或是屬於國防機密\n各位報告這十年來我們查了一下葛明德跟我們中科院案有14個案子那14個案子都是基礎科學研究也就是剛才有委員詢答我們講了基礎關鍵是一到三級的TIL基礎備備水準這14個案子我們昨天這兩天特別漏月來查它沒有涉及到機密但是它裡面是不是還有包含三個從110年到112年的先進系統工程研究中心它是不是其中的一個\n請再查核清楚好嗎?國防部或者是國防大學再查核清楚有十四案十四案裡面是葛明德先生或是葛明德教授有涉案的部分我們現在擔心的就是核心關鍵技術如果沒有把它查清楚的話你會認為只是一般的學研甚至他跑到中國去申請專利的時候申請完專利那變成中國就可以無限被授權來使用我覺得是這個非常糟糕啊部長\n您聽到這樣子的部分的話,你的指示是什麼?有沒有最近跟中科院或者國防大學做一下什麼樣子的方式來指示他們?委員長講到我們已經交代了,不管是中科院也好,或國防大學、理工學院分別去查。但我們同步在做,第一個做的事情是完全把輿送法辦了。原本他們還講要查到某個地步再輿送,我想這個不用等,這兩個工作同步在做的。\n就是部長你已經指示說就乾脆移送法辦不用再經過內部的行政調查是嗎?不是,就是要行政調查是移送法辦以後我們一樣要說我們程序嘛。就是同步進行就對了。對,同步做。好了解,同步進行我想這樣才能夠真正遏止我們的關鍵技術外流好嗎?是的。那那個部長你指示要移送法辦的時間是什麼時候?\n但是12月8號的時候為什麼國防大學自己都要講說成立專案小組啟動調查,這表示是行政調查啊?國防大學有沒有收到那個部長的指示?\n國防部議員\n是啊,所以國防大學教育長你所回應的是你啟動調查,這就是我所說的,這叫行政調查啊那你到底有沒有按照國防部長的指示就是移送法辦有,有確實的按照部長的指示來做那個 安送法辦嘛,什麼時候出去的?公文今天上午今天上午才出去嘛今天上午會,是,今天上午請這個做寒送 所以部長昨天指示你們今天上午出去,這樣算是快,是不是?\n昨天是週日我們已經有同仁在作業然後今天早上是上班日然後今天上午就會出手就會送走是表示還沒送還是送了?\n最近這兩天包括某個媒體也都在批評就是說我們立法院即將二三讀的這個軍事營區安全維護條例裡面\n是否為涉及就是說侵害到有一般尤其是什麼露營啊射露營這個部分後來我們來查證一下的部分就是說在原來啊我們那個法律有個要塞堡壘地帶法的地帶法的第四條第一款也是一樣\n沒有受到國防部的特別命令的話不得為測量、攝影等等這些如果有違反的話呢它的有期徒刑是在一年到七年那但是呢同樣很類似的部分放在我們的軍事營區的安全而物條例裡面第六條的審查裡面是非經軍事居關許可我想我是不是可以直接請這個省中將來回應一下請問這兩個之間的差別在哪裡?競合在哪裡?\n為什麼會有一些就是說對於軍事迷他們有興趣不一定涉及國家安全的人會對這個有些反彈是不是請沈中將可以來回答一下是報告委員跟委員做簡單的說明要塞堡壘地帶法它規範的是要塞堡壘要塞堡壘它必須經過公告那現在在我們全部地區大概有22處不是所有的營區都是要塞堡壘\n那軍事營區安全維護條例它的保護的課題是營區我們作戰部門有概略統計過大概有上千個營區那藥材保理第二法第四條它規範的罰則就像委員剛剛講的它可能有到徒刑的處罰那軍事營區安全維護條例它第六條裡面所規範的罰則那個只有原來上面原則上是只有行政法並沒有到並沒有到所謂刑罰的處罰\n二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員\n我如果對著空中上面拍攝F16或是我對著這個大樓上面拍攝譬如說我們海軍的活動等等這些那是不是已經影響到軍事營區安全維護的條例?這個怎麼辦?單純這種你對著天空拍攝這個飛機的飛行的概況或是說我們有戰車經過馬路的從馬路經過你拍攝這個這個通通都不在規範的範圍之內那我建議是\n拜託省中將要對外說清楚,台灣也很多軍事迷,他們純粹是軍事迷或是我們很多的軍事攝影雜誌也很希望拍攝,尤其像我們最近海昆號其實受到這個民眾的支持滿意度是非常高,那我們自己對內\n二、審查本院委員\n尤其是非經濟事機關許可就我了解應該是說該營區裡面的指揮官要許可才可以是不是?還是門哨就可以許可?如果要拍攝相關的許可的話我們會在後面有定的有七個辦法有七個執法\n另外哪些地方能拍不能拍或是哪些地方有管制有四個公告該有的法規命令該有的公告我們都會按著程序來做誰有權許可在什麼樣的營區有什麼樣的人可以做許可等等那如果發覺有人違規該怎麼樣去做通報該怎麼樣請示都會在相關的法規命令裡面來規範因為這裡面也牽涉到如果說是電視台或者是其他的媒體他們也會很關心這個部分\n所以我們未來要公告的時候或是未來要主管機關放在還是放在國防部來主管還是放在行政院主管會比較好因為行政院在主管的過程當中他們會比較考慮到涉及到言論自由比如說是電視台或者是媒體等等這些他們的這個管制的方向會跟國防部還會有一些必須要溝通的\n國防部會否不願意受到媒體宣傳禁核?\n我跟委員報告我們將來定法規命令行政院也有規範我們現在都在朝你將來的法規命令要正式要準備要進行法規程序之前也會先做預告那預告完了行政院對這些也都會有點都會有指導完全都要行政院同意了之後最後才會行政院要核定你不能這樣講法律不是這樣子的\n立法院通過之後,行政院也只能按照立法院所通過的法條來處理。你不能說立法院通過之後,我行政院可以另外再下指導期。不能這樣子。我們是照著法律授權。對,我們是照著法律授權的範圍。所以法律授權放在行政院執法或者是其他的行政命令的話會比較好,還是放在國防部會比較好?\n二、報委應該是放在國防部這個我們先前就有討論過我們是主管機關有我們來定我先跟你提醒了因為再接著下來可能我們在四黨協商的時候呢這個議題還是會被提出來那如果我們考量這個時間上的因素希望趕快通過的話恐怕對每個不同的黨團之間的溝通或者是對外界的溝通要說清楚講明白最後二三度通過才比較不會有其他的疑慮好嗎我們會持續去說明謝謝部長謝謝各位\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.069 --> 00:00.890\n總督察長、法律事務司、訓練參謀、國防大學、中科院\n\n00:19.485 --> 00:43.171\n因為我要問三個問題了督察室李中將還有法律師我先問一下部長部長剛剛蔡市委員有提到就是我們臺灣高檢署檢查署臺灣高等檢查署的新聞稿有提到有陳姓被告10人的部分那現在只有一位叫做陳玉新的部分他雖然是一個退役人員但是退役商人請問一下你了不了解他有沒有被通緝\n\n00:44.625 --> 01:12.685\n我知道他這個10人當中有3個是已經退的7個是我們現役的我知道我是說這個陳玉新你所了解的部分他有沒有被通緝有通緝嘛有通緝的嘛有一個好像已經跑到所以這個部分看起來不管是7個人或是10個人最後到那個法院去判決的時候應該都是會觸犯到貪污自罪條例甚至國安法或者是一些勤工法的部分那我要請教一下\n\n01:13.365 --> 01:34.150\n部長雖然可以看到說這個是11月27日台灣高等檢察署所發布的新聞稿但是我們略微知道就是不管是特種的像化學兵或是陸海空等等這些相關的極機密國防部內部的這個資料請問一下我們後續的這個補救方案或是亡羊補牢的方案現在開始啟動了沒有?\n\n01:34.827 --> 02:02.437\n我們同步來啟動因為當初這案子一出以後啊我們有很多這個叫做等下補強避免人家講損害管控啊我知道損害管控很重要這種風險的部分但是我要跟你講說這裡面有好多是極精密的部分但是極精密的話要按照我們國防部內部的程序還是必須要由這個比如說下面的不管是哪一個軍種再上上來但是這樣子的機制會不會太慢\n\n02:04.204 --> 02:18.490\n我要跟部長提到的部分就是說因為這裡面太多極機密的部分有沒有可能馬上先通案譬如說先把它撤掉或是說先把這個所謂的舊案全部都一起否決掉然後趕快重新擬定新的方案而不是只有換湯不換藥\n\n02:28.257 --> 02:45.249\n我相信你們從他的這個起訴判決書裡面一定會了解到我們國防部內部到底有哪一些極機密機密不管是哪一個陸海空三軍的部分受到影響那現在趕快做亡羊補牢那個部長你可以答應我什麼時候可以把它完成補牆的工作\n\n02:47.555 --> 03:07.651\n我們配合各項研習的推論總統,有沒有話要講?報告委員,這個所有洩密的資料我們剛剛前面已經有委員指導過我們去跟這個地方法院拿到起訴書相關的證據以後我們會做成一個清單然後將所有洩密出去的計畫全部做一個修訂\n\n03:08.171 --> 03:10.574\n二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員\n\n03:30.416 --> 03:42.081\n市長,極機密的部分可不可以盡快來完成?可以可以,我們只要有這個名稱以後啊,下單就是這個馬上就截止或作廢。這個是可以很快做的。\n\n03:43.919 --> 03:46.641\n二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員\n\n04:07.895 --> 04:33.491\n他已經新聞搞出來了所以國防部是受害者嘛所以盡量趕快找到相關資料好嗎?好這第一個那第二個呢我要問的就是葛明德這個這一位啊國防大學的教授那個跟這個所謂的現役軍官遭吸收了部分的相關的這個這個首長可以先回去我想問一下國防大學的這個部分啊將研究成果跟中國籍人士來申請專利請問國防大學還有中科院怎麼看待這件事?\n\n04:35.875 --> 05:00.615\n來,請回應一下跟委員報告那目前他在那個跟對岸廠商申請那個專利的那個發明申請專利怎麼會跟對岸廠商一定是對岸的官方機構啊哪有去跟對岸的廠商申請專利你來看一下它裡面的部分是有關電鍍法來自備高批負性的這個沾黏這個陶瓷類的部分這個不是做完欸你要搞清楚啊\n\n05:01.095 --> 05:19.851\n你要知道我們在國客會剛剛通過了幾個國家核心關鍵技術裡面有相關的這些技術在國防部主管就很多包括碳纖維、高溫耐燒、熔石技術等等這些所以事實上你們不能把它等閒視之好像覺得只是為了一點點錢然後就申請中國專利你們沒搞清楚狀況啊\n\n05:20.512 --> 05:35.541\n公委員報告媒體上面那些專利事實上是跟我們學校持有的專利是沒有相關的我們還在查案中有些是不屬實的表示你還在查的當中那我再問一下中科院你了不了解\n\n05:36.221 --> 05:56.354\n中科院也若干的委託計畫給這位葛明德教授我剛所說的用電鍍法制備高批負性的抗沾黏的類陶瓷鍍膜技術還有先進的環保、落炭類陶瓷製成技術等等這些有沒有牽涉到中科院自己內部認定的是屬於關鍵技術或是屬於國防機密\n\n05:58.775 --> 06:27.461\n各位報告這十年來我們查了一下葛明德跟我們中科院案有14個案子那14個案子都是基礎科學研究也就是剛才有委員詢答我們講了基礎關鍵是一到三級的TIL基礎備備水準這14個案子我們昨天這兩天特別漏月來查它沒有涉及到機密但是它裡面是不是還有包含三個從110年到112年的先進系統工程研究中心它是不是其中的一個\n\n06:30.989 --> 06:55.654\n請再查核清楚好嗎?國防部或者是國防大學再查核清楚有十四案十四案裡面是葛明德先生或是葛明德教授有涉案的部分我們現在擔心的就是核心關鍵技術如果沒有把它查清楚的話你會認為只是一般的學研甚至他跑到中國去申請專利的時候申請完專利那變成中國就可以無限被授權來使用我覺得是這個非常糟糕啊部長\n\n06:56.754 --> 07:21.881\n您聽到這樣子的部分的話,你的指示是什麼?有沒有最近跟中科院或者國防大學做一下什麼樣子的方式來指示他們?委員長講到我們已經交代了,不管是中科院也好,或國防大學、理工學院分別去查。但我們同步在做,第一個做的事情是完全把輿送法辦了。原本他們還講要查到某個地步再輿送,我想這個不用等,這兩個工作同步在做的。\n\n07:22.681 --> 07:42.372\n就是部長你已經指示說就乾脆移送法辦不用再經過內部的行政調查是嗎?不是,就是要行政調查是移送法辦以後我們一樣要說我們程序嘛。就是同步進行就對了。對,同步做。好了解,同步進行我想這樣才能夠真正遏止我們的關鍵技術外流好嗎?是的。那那個部長你指示要移送法辦的時間是什麼時候?\n\n07:43.997 --> 07:49.643\n但是12月8號的時候為什麼國防大學自己都要講說成立專案小組啟動調查,這表示是行政調查啊?國防大學有沒有收到那個部長的指示?\n\n08:05.979 --> 08:06.199\n國防部議員\n\n08:22.325 --> 08:47.592\n是啊,所以國防大學教育長你所回應的是你啟動調查,這就是我所說的,這叫行政調查啊那你到底有沒有按照國防部長的指示就是移送法辦有,有確實的按照部長的指示來做那個安送法辦嘛,什麼時候出去的?公文今天上午今天上午才出去嘛今天上午會,是,今天上午請這個做寒送所以部長昨天指示你們今天上午出去,這樣算是快,是不是?\n\n08:50.520 --> 08:59.514\n昨天是週日我們已經有同仁在作業然後今天早上是上班日然後今天上午就會出手就會送走是表示還沒送還是送了?\n\n09:01.019 --> 09:03.600\n最近這兩天包括某個媒體也都在批評就是說我們立法院即將二三讀的這個軍事營區安全維護條例裡面\n\n09:22.390 --> 09:37.262\n是否為涉及就是說侵害到有一般尤其是什麼露營啊射露營這個部分後來我們來查證一下的部分就是說在原來啊我們那個法律有個要塞堡壘地帶法的地帶法的第四條第一款也是一樣\n\n09:37.862 --> 09:57.318\n沒有受到國防部的特別命令的話不得為測量、攝影等等這些如果有違反的話呢它的有期徒刑是在一年到七年那但是呢同樣很類似的部分放在我們的軍事營區的安全而物條例裡面第六條的審查裡面是非經軍事居關許可我想我是不是可以直接請這個省中將來回應一下請問這兩個之間的差別在哪裡?競合在哪裡?\n\n10:02.622 --> 10:25.663\n為什麼會有一些就是說對於軍事迷他們有興趣不一定涉及國家安全的人會對這個有些反彈是不是請沈中將可以來回答一下是報告委員跟委員做簡單的說明要塞堡壘地帶法它規範的是要塞堡壘要塞堡壘它必須經過公告那現在在我們全部地區大概有22處不是所有的營區都是要塞堡壘\n\n10:26.323 --> 10:49.617\n那軍事營區安全維護條例它的保護的課題是營區我們作戰部門有概略統計過大概有上千個營區那藥材保理第二法第四條它規範的罰則就像委員剛剛講的它可能有到徒刑的處罰那軍事營區安全維護條例它第六條裡面所規範的罰則那個只有原來上面原則上是只有行政法並沒有到並沒有到所謂刑罰的處罰\n\n10:50.538 --> 10:53.642\n二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員\n\n11:10.282 --> 11:21.171\n我如果對著空中上面拍攝F16或是我對著這個大樓上面拍攝譬如說我們海軍的活動等等這些那是不是已經影響到軍事營區安全維護的條例?這個怎麼辦?單純這種你對著天空拍攝這個飛機的飛行的概況或是說我們有戰車經過馬路的從馬路經過你拍攝這個這個通通都不在規範的範圍之內那我建議是\n\n11:35.903 --> 11:50.975\n拜託省中將要對外說清楚,台灣也很多軍事迷,他們純粹是軍事迷或是我們很多的軍事攝影雜誌也很希望拍攝,尤其像我們最近海昆號其實受到這個民眾的支持滿意度是非常高,那我們自己對內\n\n11:52.076 --> 11:52.316\n二、審查本院委員\n\n12:12.105 --> 12:29.168\n尤其是非經濟事機關許可就我了解應該是說該營區裡面的指揮官要許可才可以是不是?還是門哨就可以許可?如果要拍攝相關的許可的話我們會在後面有定的有七個辦法有七個執法\n\n12:29.828 --> 12:54.468\n另外哪些地方能拍不能拍或是哪些地方有管制有四個公告該有的法規命令該有的公告我們都會按著程序來做誰有權許可在什麼樣的營區有什麼樣的人可以做許可等等那如果發覺有人違規該怎麼樣去做通報該怎麼樣請示都會在相關的法規命令裡面來規範因為這裡面也牽涉到如果說是電視台或者是其他的媒體他們也會很關心這個部分\n\n12:56.730 --> 13:17.718\n所以我們未來要公告的時候或是未來要主管機關放在還是放在國防部來主管還是放在行政院主管會比較好因為行政院在主管的過程當中他們會比較考慮到涉及到言論自由比如說是電視台或者是媒體等等這些他們的這個管制的方向會跟國防部還會有一些必須要溝通的\n\n13:18.038 --> 13:18.938\n國防部會否不願意受到媒體宣傳禁核?\n\n13:35.424 --> 13:55.241\n我跟委員報告我們將來定法規命令行政院也有規範我們現在都在朝你將來的法規命令要正式要準備要進行法規程序之前也會先做預告那預告完了行政院對這些也都會有點都會有指導完全都要行政院同意了之後最後才會行政院要核定你不能這樣講法律不是這樣子的\n\n13:55.922 --> 14:17.407\n立法院通過之後,行政院也只能按照立法院所通過的法條來處理。你不能說立法院通過之後,我行政院可以另外再下指導期。不能這樣子。我們是照著法律授權。對,我們是照著法律授權的範圍。所以法律授權放在行政院執法或者是其他的行政命令的話會比較好,還是放在國防部會比較好?\n\n14:17.915 --> 14:41.413\n二、報委應該是放在國防部這個我們先前就有討論過我們是主管機關有我們來定我先跟你提醒了因為再接著下來可能我們在四黨協商的時候呢這個議題還是會被提出來那如果我們考量這個時間上的因素希望趕快通過的話恐怕對每個不同的黨團之間的溝通或者是對外界的溝通要說清楚講明白最後二三度通過才比較不會有其他的疑慮好嗎我們會持續去說明謝謝部長謝謝各位\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.069,"end":0.89,"text":"總督察長、法律事務司、訓練參謀、國防大學、中科院"},{"start":19.485,"end":43.171,"text":"因為我要問三個問題了督察室李中將還有法律師我先問一下部長部長剛剛蔡市委員有提到就是我們臺灣高檢署檢查署臺灣高等檢查署的新聞稿有提到有陳姓被告10人的部分那現在只有一位叫做陳玉新的部分他雖然是一個退役人員但是退役商人請問一下你了不了解他有沒有被通緝"},{"start":44.625,"end":72.685,"text":"我知道他這個10人當中有3個是已經退的7個是我們現役的我知道我是說這個陳玉新你所了解的部分他有沒有被通緝有通緝嘛有通緝的嘛有一個好像已經跑到所以這個部分看起來不管是7個人或是10個人最後到那個法院去判決的時候應該都是會觸犯到貪污自罪條例甚至國安法或者是一些勤工法的部分那我要請教一下"},{"start":73.365,"end":94.15,"text":"部長雖然可以看到說這個是11月27日台灣高等檢察署所發布的新聞稿但是我們略微知道就是不管是特種的像化學兵或是陸海空等等這些相關的極機密國防部內部的這個資料請問一下我們後續的這個補救方案或是亡羊補牢的方案現在開始啟動了沒有?"},{"start":94.827,"end":122.437,"text":"我們同步來啟動因為當初這案子一出以後啊我們有很多這個叫做等下補強避免人家講損害管控啊我知道損害管控很重要這種風險的部分但是我要跟你講說這裡面有好多是極精密的部分但是極精密的話要按照我們國防部內部的程序還是必須要由這個比如說下面的不管是哪一個軍種再上上來但是這樣子的機制會不會太慢"},{"start":124.204,"end":138.49,"text":"我要跟部長提到的部分就是說因為這裡面太多極機密的部分有沒有可能馬上先通案譬如說先把它撤掉或是說先把這個所謂的舊案全部都一起否決掉然後趕快重新擬定新的方案而不是只有換湯不換藥"},{"start":148.257,"end":165.249,"text":"我相信你們從他的這個起訴判決書裡面一定會了解到我們國防部內部到底有哪一些極機密機密不管是哪一個陸海空三軍的部分受到影響那現在趕快做亡羊補牢那個部長你可以答應我什麼時候可以把它完成補牆的工作"},{"start":167.555,"end":187.651,"text":"我們配合各項研習的推論總統,有沒有話要講?報告委員,這個所有洩密的資料我們剛剛前面已經有委員指導過我們去跟這個地方法院拿到起訴書相關的證據以後我們會做成一個清單然後將所有洩密出去的計畫全部做一個修訂"},{"start":188.171,"end":190.574,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":210.416,"end":222.081,"text":"市長,極機密的部分可不可以盡快來完成?可以可以,我們只要有這個名稱以後啊,下單就是這個馬上就截止或作廢。這個是可以很快做的。"},{"start":223.919,"end":226.641,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":247.895,"end":273.491,"text":"他已經新聞搞出來了所以國防部是受害者嘛所以盡量趕快找到相關資料好嗎?好這第一個那第二個呢我要問的就是葛明德這個這一位啊國防大學的教授那個跟這個所謂的現役軍官遭吸收了部分的相關的這個這個首長可以先回去我想問一下國防大學的這個部分啊將研究成果跟中國籍人士來申請專利請問國防大學還有中科院怎麼看待這件事?"},{"start":275.875,"end":300.615,"text":"來,請回應一下跟委員報告那目前他在那個跟對岸廠商申請那個專利的那個發明申請專利怎麼會跟對岸廠商一定是對岸的官方機構啊哪有去跟對岸的廠商申請專利你來看一下它裡面的部分是有關電鍍法來自備高批負性的這個沾黏這個陶瓷類的部分這個不是做完欸你要搞清楚啊"},{"start":301.095,"end":319.851,"text":"你要知道我們在國客會剛剛通過了幾個國家核心關鍵技術裡面有相關的這些技術在國防部主管就很多包括碳纖維、高溫耐燒、熔石技術等等這些所以事實上你們不能把它等閒視之好像覺得只是為了一點點錢然後就申請中國專利你們沒搞清楚狀況啊"},{"start":320.512,"end":335.541,"text":"公委員報告媒體上面那些專利事實上是跟我們學校持有的專利是沒有相關的我們還在查案中有些是不屬實的表示你還在查的當中那我再問一下中科院你了不了解"},{"start":336.221,"end":356.354,"text":"中科院也若干的委託計畫給這位葛明德教授我剛所說的用電鍍法制備高批負性的抗沾黏的類陶瓷鍍膜技術還有先進的環保、落炭類陶瓷製成技術等等這些有沒有牽涉到中科院自己內部認定的是屬於關鍵技術或是屬於國防機密"},{"start":358.775,"end":387.461,"text":"各位報告這十年來我們查了一下葛明德跟我們中科院案有14個案子那14個案子都是基礎科學研究也就是剛才有委員詢答我們講了基礎關鍵是一到三級的TIL基礎備備水準這14個案子我們昨天這兩天特別漏月來查它沒有涉及到機密但是它裡面是不是還有包含三個從110年到112年的先進系統工程研究中心它是不是其中的一個"},{"start":390.989,"end":415.654,"text":"請再查核清楚好嗎?國防部或者是國防大學再查核清楚有十四案十四案裡面是葛明德先生或是葛明德教授有涉案的部分我們現在擔心的就是核心關鍵技術如果沒有把它查清楚的話你會認為只是一般的學研甚至他跑到中國去申請專利的時候申請完專利那變成中國就可以無限被授權來使用我覺得是這個非常糟糕啊部長"},{"start":416.754,"end":441.881,"text":"您聽到這樣子的部分的話,你的指示是什麼?有沒有最近跟中科院或者國防大學做一下什麼樣子的方式來指示他們?委員長講到我們已經交代了,不管是中科院也好,或國防大學、理工學院分別去查。但我們同步在做,第一個做的事情是完全把輿送法辦了。原本他們還講要查到某個地步再輿送,我想這個不用等,這兩個工作同步在做的。"},{"start":442.681,"end":462.372,"text":"就是部長你已經指示說就乾脆移送法辦不用再經過內部的行政調查是嗎?不是,就是要行政調查是移送法辦以後我們一樣要說我們程序嘛。就是同步進行就對了。對,同步做。好了解,同步進行我想這樣才能夠真正遏止我們的關鍵技術外流好嗎?是的。那那個部長你指示要移送法辦的時間是什麼時候?"},{"start":463.997,"end":469.643,"text":"但是12月8號的時候為什麼國防大學自己都要講說成立專案小組啟動調查,這表示是行政調查啊?國防大學有沒有收到那個部長的指示?"},{"start":485.979,"end":486.199,"text":"國防部議員"},{"start":502.325,"end":527.592,"text":"是啊,所以國防大學教育長你所回應的是你啟動調查,這就是我所說的,這叫行政調查啊那你到底有沒有按照國防部長的指示就是移送法辦有,有確實的按照部長的指示來做那個 安送法辦嘛,什麼時候出去的?公文今天上午今天上午才出去嘛今天上午會,是,今天上午請這個做寒送 所以部長昨天指示你們今天上午出去,這樣算是快,是不是?"},{"start":530.52,"end":539.514,"text":"昨天是週日我們已經有同仁在作業然後今天早上是上班日然後今天上午就會出手就會送走是表示還沒送還是送了?"},{"start":541.019,"end":543.6,"text":"最近這兩天包括某個媒體也都在批評就是說我們立法院即將二三讀的這個軍事營區安全維護條例裡面"},{"start":562.39,"end":577.262,"text":"是否為涉及就是說侵害到有一般尤其是什麼露營啊射露營這個部分後來我們來查證一下的部分就是說在原來啊我們那個法律有個要塞堡壘地帶法的地帶法的第四條第一款也是一樣"},{"start":577.862,"end":597.318,"text":"沒有受到國防部的特別命令的話不得為測量、攝影等等這些如果有違反的話呢它的有期徒刑是在一年到七年那但是呢同樣很類似的部分放在我們的軍事營區的安全而物條例裡面第六條的審查裡面是非經軍事居關許可我想我是不是可以直接請這個省中將來回應一下請問這兩個之間的差別在哪裡?競合在哪裡?"},{"start":602.622,"end":625.663,"text":"為什麼會有一些就是說對於軍事迷他們有興趣不一定涉及國家安全的人會對這個有些反彈是不是請沈中將可以來回答一下是報告委員跟委員做簡單的說明要塞堡壘地帶法它規範的是要塞堡壘要塞堡壘它必須經過公告那現在在我們全部地區大概有22處不是所有的營區都是要塞堡壘"},{"start":626.323,"end":649.617,"text":"那軍事營區安全維護條例它的保護的課題是營區我們作戰部門有概略統計過大概有上千個營區那藥材保理第二法第四條它規範的罰則就像委員剛剛講的它可能有到徒刑的處罰那軍事營區安全維護條例它第六條裡面所規範的罰則那個只有原來上面原則上是只有行政法並沒有到並沒有到所謂刑罰的處罰"},{"start":650.538,"end":653.642,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":670.282,"end":681.171,"text":"我如果對著空中上面拍攝F16或是我對著這個大樓上面拍攝譬如說我們海軍的活動等等這些那是不是已經影響到軍事營區安全維護的條例?這個怎麼辦?單純這種你對著天空拍攝這個飛機的飛行的概況或是說我們有戰車經過馬路的從馬路經過你拍攝這個這個通通都不在規範的範圍之內那我建議是"},{"start":695.903,"end":710.975,"text":"拜託省中將要對外說清楚,台灣也很多軍事迷,他們純粹是軍事迷或是我們很多的軍事攝影雜誌也很希望拍攝,尤其像我們最近海昆號其實受到這個民眾的支持滿意度是非常高,那我們自己對內"},{"start":712.076,"end":712.316,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":732.105,"end":749.168,"text":"尤其是非經濟事機關許可就我了解應該是說該營區裡面的指揮官要許可才可以是不是?還是門哨就可以許可?如果要拍攝相關的許可的話我們會在後面有定的有七個辦法有七個執法"},{"start":749.828,"end":774.468,"text":"另外哪些地方能拍不能拍或是哪些地方有管制有四個公告該有的法規命令該有的公告我們都會按著程序來做誰有權許可在什麼樣的營區有什麼樣的人可以做許可等等那如果發覺有人違規該怎麼樣去做通報該怎麼樣請示都會在相關的法規命令裡面來規範因為這裡面也牽涉到如果說是電視台或者是其他的媒體他們也會很關心這個部分"},{"start":776.73,"end":797.718,"text":"所以我們未來要公告的時候或是未來要主管機關放在還是放在國防部來主管還是放在行政院主管會比較好因為行政院在主管的過程當中他們會比較考慮到涉及到言論自由比如說是電視台或者是媒體等等這些他們的這個管制的方向會跟國防部還會有一些必須要溝通的"},{"start":798.038,"end":798.938,"text":"國防部會否不願意受到媒體宣傳禁核?"},{"start":815.424,"end":835.241,"text":"我跟委員報告我們將來定法規命令行政院也有規範我們現在都在朝你將來的法規命令要正式要準備要進行法規程序之前也會先做預告那預告完了行政院對這些也都會有點都會有指導完全都要行政院同意了之後最後才會行政院要核定你不能這樣講法律不是這樣子的"},{"start":835.922,"end":857.407,"text":"立法院通過之後,行政院也只能按照立法院所通過的法條來處理。你不能說立法院通過之後,我行政院可以另外再下指導期。不能這樣子。我們是照著法律授權。對,我們是照著法律授權的範圍。所以法律授權放在行政院執法或者是其他的行政命令的話會比較好,還是放在國防部會比較好?"},{"start":857.915,"end":881.413,"text":"二、報委應該是放在國防部這個我們先前就有討論過我們是主管機關有我們來定我先跟你提醒了因為再接著下來可能我們在四黨協商的時候呢這個議題還是會被提出來那如果我們考量這個時間上的因素希望趕快通過的話恐怕對每個不同的黨團之間的溝通或者是對外界的溝通要說清楚講明白最後二三度通過才比較不會有其他的疑慮好嗎我們會持續去說明謝謝部長謝謝各位"}]}}}}