{"id":149015,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149015","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d690f85f163cb4c58bab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a0322b67a135d127549fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王婉諭","委員發言時間":"10:39:15 - 10:50:15","影片長度":"00:11:00","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":660,"end_time":"2023-12-13T10:50:15+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T10:39:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":566,"blocks":[["王委員婉諭：（10時39分）主席有請勞動部許部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：王委員好。"],["王委員婉諭：部長你好。我們知道過去勞退舊制的情況之下，勞工需要在同一個事業單位，累積一定的年資才符合請領退休金的條件。如果他工作被解僱或者是被迫離職就沒有辦法累積年資，又或者也曾經出現過許多的事業單位惡性倒閉等等，造成勞工無法請領退休金。我們看到勞退新制從2005年上路之後，的確解決了這個問題，我想不可諱言，這個部分也應該給予肯定。勞退新制是採用個人帳戶制之下，讓勞工不會因為轉換事業單位而中斷年資，可是我們也看到在勞退新制上路之後，大家一直在反映的是、我們勞工團體一直在訴求的是，政府只告訴勞工朋友們勞退新制可以讓他們更有機會領到退休金，可是沒有說的是，這樣子的退休金其實是大打折扣的。我們以2021年勞工薪資中位數大約51萬來計算他的年資以及退休金，如果是以勞退舊制來計算，加起來總共大概是191萬元的勞退退休金，但是以勞退新制雇主提撥6%的比率來說，就只有91萬，所以在這樣的情況之下，很明顯的是，如果我們希望能夠保障他們請領的退休金是一樣的情況之下，回推回去後，雇主的提撥比率應該要高達12.5%。","我想這個部長一定很清楚，勞工團體們一直在訴求的是，我們希望能夠提高雇主的提撥比率，當然我也知道，部長一直在講這個6%是最低的部分，其實是可以透過勞資協議來增加，但是我們也看到相較之下，在今（2023）年7月公務人員退撫新制上路之後，強制提撥15%，其中政府的負擔是65%，換算過來雇主的提撥率高達9.75%，我覺得這就是再次地打臉勞工朋友。","我們也看到的確這個6%是最低的部分，可以透過勞資協議來提升，不過，我們也要跟部長來做一個提醒和回憶，就是在今年7月的時候，中華電信工會也發起了調高勞退雇主提撥比率的遊行，中華電信工會那時候就有提到，其實他們已經很多次向公司反映應該要提升提撥率，以彌平新舊制制度上的落差，但是公司的回應是要回去再研究，而實際上研究之後，最終中華電信公司也跳票了，它表示說，提撥比率涉及了政府的修法，所以不願意調整。","我想跟部長報告的是，即便這6%是最低，但是包括中華電信工會，它相對來說是比較大的工會，它跟雇主做協商都是這樣的情況了，都是完全沒有辦法提升，而且公司仍然認為這個6%是政府明定的，要調升其實是需要政府來做修法，更遑論其他的雇主以及其他的勞工朋友們，根本很難達到這樣的比率，所以我想這個議題部長你一定很清楚，當時其實你也曾經承諾，而且當時6月蔡英文總統在參加全國工會會員代表大會的時候也提到，這部分會持續地來做溝通。","所以我們其實有二個問題想要請部長來做說明，第一個，這個6%的比率，到底實際上有多少的雇主願意提高超過6%？還有，在高於6%提撥率的情況之下，有多少是透過勞資協議來達成的？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，目前雇主提繳率超過6%的大概有3,532家的事業單位，占比大概0.61%。"],["王委員婉諭：是，所以非常少，連1%都不到，尤其是剛剛提的中華電信工會就已經是一個很明顯的例子，即便像他們是比較嚴謹、比較大的工會，即便是中華電信，都不認為這個6%以上是他們應該要來共同討論的。"],["許部長銘春：我們法規定最低、至少是6%，其實是可以再增加……"],["王委員婉諭：是啊！但是實際上再增加的比率非常低啊！"],["許部長銘春：當然有些時候事業單位、雇主他可能會考慮到他所增加的一些……"],["王委員婉諭：當然，這就是為什麼大家一直在訴求這個6%應該要往上提升。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為這個部分其實也變成一個比較困難的地方，如果以整體來講，如果我們提高1%，一年的整個法定成本，就是雇主的法定成本，大概就是增加將近390億，所以這件事情當然要去……"],["王委員婉諭：我想勞工朋友今天之所以覺得很不公平或是覺得很受到委屈的是，我們新舊制比起來真的是差非常的多；第二個部分，剛剛提到像公務人員退撫新制上路之後，其實算起來也是在9.75%，當然我們很希望臺灣能夠慢慢發展成勞資的權利、地位可以更加平等，透過勞資協商來推進，可是實務上，部長您剛剛提的數據其實就很明顯的呈現出來，不管勞工朋友喊得多大聲、多麼希望透過勞資協議來做處理，可是實際上的發生率不到1%，即便連剛才報告的中華電信這樣子的公司、這樣子的工會，都沒有辦法讓他們的雇主能夠願意承擔，甚至雇主還表示這必須要透過修法，難道我們的修法不應該更加保障勞工朋友的權益嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，的確，這個部分當然法律這樣的明定，要鼓勵他們自己願意提升，雇主……"],["王委員婉諭：難上加難啦，我想大家不用昧著良心說話啦，真的是難上加難啦，部長不會不知道。"],["許部長銘春：我瞭解，但就是我們現在要修法，當然這就是一個制度的變革，我是覺得這牽涉到雙方的權益，當然，我們會願意再跟大家來開會、溝通……"],["王委員婉諭：好，接下來請教，其實當時也說實際上對於這個6%要提升，蔡英文總統也曾經承諾過勞動部會來繼續努力和溝通。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["王委員婉諭：我們也想請教一下，從6月蔡英文總統承諾要來做溝通到現在，我們做了哪些部分？又研議的方向如何？以及什麼時候會有一個比較具體的目標？"],["許部長銘春：這個部分喔，其實我們……"],["王委員婉諭：這個溝通，我說的是要真正溝通，不是說嘴巴上溝通而已。"],["許部長銘春：是，但說實在這件事情當然不是那麼容易啦，因為這是要說服……"],["王委員婉諭：是啊！所以我們一定要看到實際上做了哪些事情，從6月到現在進行了哪些溝通？又跟哪些單位做了溝通？"],["許部長銘春：我們其實透過這個團體協約的部分，就是鼓勵大家能夠明文約定提高，這部分也有一些效果，然後讓那些……"],["王委員婉諭：部長，我覺得我們就先不講這個勞資協議或團體協議，你知道這有多困難，我相信部長不會不知道，所以我想請教的是要朝著我們法定做提高的部分，當時6月就承諾過會來善盡溝通，以及評估這樣的可能性，我們想問這部分有沒有具體溝通了哪些事情？還是就是沒有回答，意思就是沒有溝通？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們的溝通方式是多元的，或許不是一個正式召開的會議叫勞資雙方都來，而是在各種場合去跟他們做說明，希望雇主……"],["王委員婉諭：其實就是跟沒有講一樣嘛！就是一直在宣示，希望大家可以來努力，但就是沒有努力。","好，沒關係，那我們下一個題目。我們看到最近3名總統候選人，包括我們的賴清德，還有侯友宜以及柯文哲等3位候選人都有提到應該要來調整法律的命令，包括說如果雇主願意來提高提撥的部分，或許我們可以透過獎勵免稅的機制，或是減稅的機制來提高他們提高撥補的可能性，所以我們想請教對於這個方向，部長有沒有一個想法？或者是如何能夠來支持？又或者是不支持這樣的方向？因為剛才提到，如果法定要提高6%一直說要溝通，但是卻完全提不出具體溝通了什麼，那在我們希望雇主主動提高提撥率，我們又如何來鼓勵雇主來提高？不要再說要透過勞資協議了，因為部長你的數據已經打臉你們自己說的，透過勞資協議可以來提高的，實際上不到1%，上路了18年，卻不到1%，我相信這個勞資協議真的非常困難。"],["許部長銘春：當然希望這些雇主他們能夠接受提高強制提撥率，而這個部分當然也要有一些誘因，那這些誘因可能就必須大家跨部會來做討論，因為這個有時候會牽涉到稅負的問題，這個部分我們後續願意跟相關的部會大家一起來……"],["王委員婉諭：什麼時候我們可以看得到方向？我想當然第一個是透過法規修訂來提高它的強制力，第二個是用鼓勵的方式提高誘因，讓他們願意來進行，這兩個部分我覺得都必須要處理。那第一個部分，從蔡總統6月承諾到現在並沒有進行什麼具體的溝通，第二部分是，如果朝著鼓勵的方式，我們什麼時候會有一個比較明確溝通的結果，或是溝通的方向？我想大家都希望朝這個目標，不是說就把目標放在那邊就會達到，而是真的要有進程，做了些什麼，至少可以告訴大家，我覺得大家之所以現在會很生氣的，就是在於我們完全看不到路徑，不能相信我們的目標有可能會達到，更不相信政府的誠意在哪裡。我想部長你一定很知道勞工朋友的辛苦，剛才的數據也很明顯的呈現出要靠勞資協議，其實是非常、非常、非常、非常的困難，即便我們推動倡議了十幾年到現在仍然不到1%是超過6%的。部長，所以這就是為什麼我們希望能夠看得到，因為不論是強制又或者是鼓勵，我們都要有清楚的路徑，又或者是至少讓我們看到政府願意努力了吧！"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我會責由業務單位來做一個規劃，就是說我們就這個議題的部分，我們有個具體的規劃，就是在……"],["王委員婉諭：兩個部分都做具體的規劃，1個月內給我們方便嗎？一個是能不能朝這6%的部分在法規面上來提升？第二個是如果我們透過獎勵的部分，該如何來做處理？我還是要再次強調，勞工朋友都在講「6%不夠花，老後被打趴！」我想6%這個部分是大家長期以來的訴求，希望能夠提升，不論是用修法又或者是退而求其次，政府用鼓勵的措施來做努力，我覺得這些都應該要具體來面對，不要講了10幾年說要透過勞資協議、透過團體協約可以做，從實際上的數據就可以知道，這就是完全非常困難的一件事情，不應該把這樣的責任放任說讓勞工朋友自己去爭取，我覺得勞動部絕對有責任，也必須要承擔起勞工朋友的權益，希望部長能夠在一個月內，把這兩項未來會規劃和討論的方式告訴我們，並向大家做一個報告和說明。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["王委員婉諭：謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。有請林為洲林委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"id":"149015","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149015","tool":"pyannote","id":"149015-pyannote"},"job_id":"GNiu4SzKaA2UbCKB","queued_at":"2024-06-02 15:55:34","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-02 15:56:26","msg":"downloading 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\"及\", \"start\": 182.792, \"end\": 182.912, \"score\": 0.722}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 182.912, \"end\": 183.012, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 183.012, \"end\": 183.172, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 183.172, \"end\": 183.532, \"score\": 0.722}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 183.532, \"end\": 183.673, \"score\": 0.68}, {\"word\": \"朋\", \"start\": 183.673, \"end\": 183.793, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"友\", \"start\": 183.793, \"end\": 184.273, \"score\": 0.759}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"根\", \"start\": 184.273, \"end\": 184.433, \"score\": 0.678}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 184.433, \"end\": 184.513, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 184.513, \"end\": 184.533, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"難\"}, {\"word\": \"達\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 184.533, \"end\": 184.553, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 184.553, \"end\": 184.614, \"score\": 0.311}, 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\"end\": 270.877, \"text\": \"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 269.494, \"end\": 269.514, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 269.514, \"end\": 269.534, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"劉\"}, {\"word\": \"世\", \"start\": 269.534, \"end\": 269.554, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"芳\", \"start\": 269.554, \"end\": 269.715, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 269.715, \"end\": 269.815, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 269.815, \"end\": 269.895, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"擬\"}, {\"word\": \"具\", \"start\": 269.895, \"end\": 270.035, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \":\"}, {\"word\": \"「\"}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 270.035, \"end\": 270.275, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"退\", \"start\": 270.275, \"end\": 270.356, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"休\", \"start\": 270.356, \"end\": 270.416, \"score\": 0.663}, {\"word\": 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\"end\": 658.768, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 658.768, \"end\": 658.909, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 658.909, \"end\": 658.929, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,638 --> 00:00:27,428\n主席有請勞動部委員許部長有請部長我委員好部長你好我們知道過去這個勞退救治的情況之下勞工需要在同一個事業單位累積一定的年資才符合勤領退休金的條件嘛那如果他早上工作被解僱又或者是被迫離職就沒有辦法累積年資又或者是曾經也出現過許多的事業單位惡性倒閉等等造成勞工無法勤領退休金\n\n2\n00:00:27,828 --> 00:00:54,429\n所以我們看到這個勞退薪制從2005年上路之後的確來解決了這個部分我想這部分是不可諱言也應該給予肯定的勞退薪制是採用個人的帳戶制之下讓勞工不會因為轉換事業單位而中斷年資可是呢我們也看到在勞退薪制的上路之後大家一直在反映的是我們的勞工團體也一直在訴求的是政府只告訴勞工朋友們勞退薪制可以讓他們更有機會領到退休金可是沒有說的是在於\n\n3\n00:00:55,189 --> 00:00:57,552\n二、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具«勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一\n\n4\n00:01:14,088 --> 00:01:38,403\n僱主提撥6%的比例來說是只有91萬所以比如說在這樣的情況之下就可以很明顯的是如果我們希望能夠讓他們保障到請你的退休金是一樣的情況之下回推回去僱主的提撥比例應該要是高達12.5%我想這個部長您一定很清楚勞工團體們一直在訴求的是我們希望能夠提高僱主的提撥比例當然我也知道部長一直在講\n\n5\n00:01:39,523 --> 00:02:02,017\n這個6%是最低的部分其實可以透過勞資協議來做增加但是呢我們也看到相較之下在今年的2023在今年的7月公務人員的退府薪資上路之後強制提撥15%其中政府的負擔是65%意思就換算過來是貴族的提撥率高達9.75%我覺得就是再次的打臉勞工朋友所以我們也看到說\n\n6\n00:02:02,677 --> 00:02:17,755\n的確啊這個6%是最低的部分可以透過勞資協議來做提升不過我們也要跟部長這邊來做一個提醒和回憶齁就今年七月的時候下一頁今年七月的時候中華電信工會也有發起了要來調高勞退雇主的提撥比例的的遊行\n\n7\n00:02:18,456 --> 00:02:21,238\n而實際上研究之後最終中華電信公司也跳票了他表示說提撥比率涉及了政府的修法所以不願意調整\n\n8\n00:02:41,331 --> 00:03:04,814\n所以我想跟部長報告的是即便是這6%是最低但是包括連中華電信和中華電信工會是相對來說比較大的工會了來跟僱主做協商都是這樣的情況是完全沒有辦法提升而且公司仍然認為這個6%是政府明定的所以要調升其實是需要政府來做修法更是還問其他的僱主以及其他的勞工朋友們根本很難達到這樣的比例啦\n\n9\n00:03:06,235 --> 00:03:31,466\n所以我想這個議題部長你一定很清楚當時其實你也曾經有承諾當時在因為總統在參加在六月參加全國工會的會員代表大會的時候也提到這部分會持續的來做溝通所以我們其實有兩個問題想要請部長來做說明第一個是這個6%的比例到底實際上有多少的雇主願意提高超過6%還有這個在高於6%的提撥率的情況之下有多少是透過勞資協議來達成的\n\n10\n00:03:34,806 --> 00:04:00,315\n報告委員目前那個顧主提繳率超過6%的大概有3,532家的事業單位了。占比?占比大概0.61%啦。是,所以非常少,連1%都不到。尤其是剛剛其實中華電信的工會就已經是一個很明顯的例子。即便像他們是工會比較嚴謹、比較大一些些,即便是中華電信都不認為這個6%以上是他們應該要來共同討論的。因為他當然他\n\n11\n00:04:04,016 --> 00:04:27,413\n其實我們法規定是說最低至少6%嘛那其實是可以再增加但是有些時候當然以事業單位顧主委他可能會考慮到他的所增加的一些當然這就是為什麼大家一直在訴求的是這個6%應該要往上提升報告委也因為這個部分其實也變成是比較困難的地方就是說如果以整體來講一年\n\n12\n00:04:29,494 --> 00:04:30,877\n三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一\n\n13\n00:04:38,164 --> 00:05:02,972\n所以這件事情當然要去...我想老公朋友今天之所以覺得很不公平的或是覺得很受到委屈的是在於我們新救治比起來真的是差非常的多這個部分是剛剛才提到說將這個公務員員退服薪資上路之後其實算起來也是在9.75%那當然我們很希望能夠台灣慢慢發展成勞資的權利是更加平等、地位是更加平等透過勞資協商來做推進可是實務上部長您剛剛的數據其實就很明顯的呈現出來\n\n14\n00:05:07,773 --> 00:05:30,993\n不管勞工朋友喊得多大聲,多麼希望透過勞資協定來做處理,可是實際上的發生率不到1%。即便連剛才報告的中華電信這樣子的公司、這樣子的工會都沒有辦法讓他們的僱主能夠願意來承擔,甚至是僱主表示這必須要透過修法,難道我們修法不應該來更加來保障勞工朋友的權益嗎?\n\n15\n00:05:32,102 --> 00:05:38,851\n是,報告委因為的確啦齁這個部分當然法律家的民定要鼓勵他們\n\n16\n00:05:39,788 --> 00:05:45,273\n及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條\n\n17\n00:06:05,532 --> 00:06:09,675\n參議院總統曾承諾過說勞動部會來繼續做努力和溝通我們也想請教一下從六月參議院總統承諾要來做溝通到現在我們做了哪些部分和研議的方向如何以及什麼時候會有一個比較具體的目標\n\n18\n00:06:26,570 --> 00:06:27,550\n三、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具\n\n19\n00:06:47,918 --> 00:06:50,920\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具«勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一\n\n20\n00:07:10,549 --> 00:07:35,434\n當時六月承諾會來善盡溝通以及來評估這樣的可能性。我們想問這部分有沒有具體溝通的哪些事情還是就是沒有回答的意思就是沒有溝通?報委我們的溝通方式是多元的啦或許不是正式的一個召開的會議說叫勞資雙方都來就是說在各種場合去跟他們做說明其實就是跟沒有講一樣嗎就是一直在宣示使用\n\n21\n00:07:35,734 --> 00:07:40,958\n三、委員賴清德、侯友宜及柯文哲等三位候選人提到,我應該要來調整法律的命令,包括說,如果僱主願意來提高撥補,或許我們可以透過獎勵免稅的機制或是減稅的機制來提高他們撥補的可能性。所以我們想請教,對於這個方向,部長有沒有一個想法,或者是如何能夠來支持又或者是不支持?\n\n22\n00:08:05,674 --> 00:08:06,194\n當然對這些僱主希望他們能夠來接受說\n\n23\n00:08:35,627 --> 00:08:46,594\n提高這個提撥率強制的提撥率那這個部分當然也要有一些誘因那這些誘因就是說可能就是必須大家跨部會來做討論因為這個有時候會牽涉到稅賦的問題這個部分我們\n\n24\n00:08:50,976 --> 00:08:53,458\n第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案。\n\n25\n00:09:17,065 --> 00:09:41,392\n我想大家希望朝這個目標不是說就把目標放在那邊就會達到而是真的要有進程做了些什麼至少可以告訴大家我覺得大家之所以現在會很生氣的就是在於我們完全看不到路徑更不能相信我們的目標有可能會達到更不相信政府的誠意在哪裡我想部長你一定很知道勞工朋友的辛苦你剛剛數據也很明顯的呈現出來要靠勞資協議其實是非常非常的困難\n\n26\n00:09:43,132 --> 00:09:57,438\n即便我們推動倡議了十幾年到現在仍然不到1%是超過6%的部長所以這就是為什麼我們希望能夠看得到如果不論是強制又或者是鼓勵我們都要有清楚的路徑又或者是至少讓我們看到政府願意努力的吧\n\n27\n00:09:59,504 --> 00:10:22,501\n我會擇由業務單位來做一個規劃就是說我們就這個議題的部分我們一個具體的規劃兩個部分都有具體的規劃一個月內給我們方便嗎?就是一個是能不能朝著6%的部分用法規面上來提升第二個是如果我們透過獎勵的部分我們能如何來做處理因為我還是要再次強調勞工朋友們都在講的是6%不夠花老後被打趴\n\n28\n00:10:22,901 --> 00:10:45,232\n我想這個部分略怕是大家長期以來的訴求希望能夠提升不論是用修法又或者是退而求其是政府用鼓勵的措施來做努力我覺得這應該要具體來做面對不要再講了十幾年說透過勞資協議透過團體協約我們可以做事實上數據就知道這就是完全非常困難的一件事情了不應該把這樣的責任放到勞工朋友自己要去爭取我覺得勞動部\n\n29\n00:10:47,194 --> 00:10:58,929\n絕對有責任也必須要承擔起勞工朋友的權益。」希望部長能夠在一個月內把這兩項具體未來會規劃的方式和討論的方式告訴我們,跟大家做一個報告和說明。好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1638\t27428\t主席有請勞動部委員許部長有請部長我委員好部長你好我們知道過去這個勞退救治的情況之下勞工需要在同一個事業單位累積一定的年資才符合勤領退休金的條件嘛那如果他早上工作被解僱又或者是被迫離職就沒有辦法累積年資又或者是曾經也出現過許多的事業單位惡性倒閉等等造成勞工無法勤領退休金\n27828\t54429\t所以我們看到這個勞退薪制從2005年上路之後的確來解決了這個部分我想這部分是不可諱言也應該給予肯定的勞退薪制是採用個人的帳戶制之下讓勞工不會因為轉換事業單位而中斷年資可是呢我們也看到在勞退薪制的上路之後大家一直在反映的是我們的勞工團體也一直在訴求的是政府只告訴勞工朋友們勞退薪制可以讓他們更有機會領到退休金可是沒有說的是在於\n55189\t57552\t二、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一\n74088\t98403\t僱主提撥6%的比例來說是只有91萬所以比如說在這樣的情況之下就可以很明顯的是如果我們希望能夠讓他們保障到請你的退休金是一樣的情況之下回推回去僱主的提撥比例應該要是高達12.5%我想這個部長您一定很清楚勞工團體們一直在訴求的是我們希望能夠提高僱主的提撥比例當然我也知道部長一直在講\n99523\t122017\t這個6%是最低的部分其實可以透過勞資協議來做增加但是呢我們也看到相較之下在今年的2023在今年的7月公務人員的退府薪資上路之後強制提撥15%其中政府的負擔是65%意思就換算過來是貴族的提撥率高達9.75%我覺得就是再次的打臉勞工朋友所以我們也看到說\n122677\t137755\t的確啊這個6%是最低的部分可以透過勞資協議來做提升不過我們也要跟部長這邊來做一個提醒和回憶齁就今年七月的時候下一頁今年七月的時候中華電信工會也有發起了要來調高勞退雇主的提撥比例的的遊行\n138456\t141238\t而實際上研究之後最終中華電信公司也跳票了他表示說提撥比率涉及了政府的修法所以不願意調整\n161331\t184814\t所以我想跟部長報告的是即便是這6%是最低但是包括連中華電信和中華電信工會是相對來說比較大的工會了來跟僱主做協商都是這樣的情況是完全沒有辦法提升而且公司仍然認為這個6%是政府明定的所以要調升其實是需要政府來做修法更是還問其他的僱主以及其他的勞工朋友們根本很難達到這樣的比例啦\n186235\t211466\t所以我想這個議題部長你一定很清楚當時其實你也曾經有承諾當時在因為總統在參加在六月參加全國工會的會員代表大會的時候也提到這部分會持續的來做溝通所以我們其實有兩個問題想要請部長來做說明第一個是這個6%的比例到底實際上有多少的雇主願意提高超過6%還有這個在高於6%的提撥率的情況之下有多少是透過勞資協議來達成的\n214806\t240315\t報告委員目前那個顧主提繳率超過6%的大概有3,532家的事業單位了。占比?占比大概0.61%啦。是,所以非常少,連1%都不到。尤其是剛剛其實中華電信的工會就已經是一個很明顯的例子。即便像他們是工會比較嚴謹、比較大一些些,即便是中華電信都不認為這個6%以上是他們應該要來共同討論的。因為他當然他\n244016\t267413\t其實我們法規定是說最低至少6%嘛那其實是可以再增加但是有些時候當然以事業單位顧主委他可能會考慮到他的所增加的一些當然這就是為什麼大家一直在訴求的是這個6%應該要往上提升報告委也因為這個部分其實也變成是比較困難的地方就是說如果以整體來講一年\n269494\t270877\t三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一\n278164\t302972\t所以這件事情當然要去...我想老公朋友今天之所以覺得很不公平的或是覺得很受到委屈的是在於我們新救治比起來真的是差非常的多這個部分是剛剛才提到說將這個公務員員退服薪資上路之後其實算起來也是在9.75%那當然我們很希望能夠台灣慢慢發展成勞資的權利是更加平等、地位是更加平等透過勞資協商來做推進可是實務上部長您剛剛的數據其實就很明顯的呈現出來\n307773\t330993\t不管勞工朋友喊得多大聲,多麼希望透過勞資協定來做處理,可是實際上的發生率不到1%。即便連剛才報告的中華電信這樣子的公司、這樣子的工會都沒有辦法讓他們的僱主能夠願意來承擔,甚至是僱主表示這必須要透過修法,難道我們修法不應該來更加來保障勞工朋友的權益嗎?\n332102\t338851\t是,報告委因為的確啦齁這個部分當然法律家的民定要鼓勵他們\n339788\t345273\t及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條\n365532\t369675\t參議院總統曾承諾過說勞動部會來繼續做努力和溝通我們也想請教一下從六月參議院總統承諾要來做溝通到現在我們做了哪些部分和研議的方向如何以及什麼時候會有一個比較具體的目標\n386570\t387550\t三、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具\n407918\t410920\t三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一\n430549\t455434\t當時六月承諾會來善盡溝通以及來評估這樣的可能性。我們想問這部分有沒有具體溝通的哪些事情還是就是沒有回答的意思就是沒有溝通?報委我們的溝通方式是多元的啦或許不是正式的一個召開的會議說叫勞資雙方都來就是說在各種場合去跟他們做說明其實就是跟沒有講一樣嗎就是一直在宣示使用\n455734\t460958\t三、委員賴清德、侯友宜及柯文哲等三位候選人提到,我應該要來調整法律的命令,包括說,如果僱主願意來提高撥補,或許我們可以透過獎勵免稅的機制或是減稅的機制來提高他們撥補的可能性。所以我們想請教,對於這個方向,部長有沒有一個想法,或者是如何能夠來支持又或者是不支持?\n485674\t486194\t當然對這些僱主希望他們能夠來接受說\n515627\t526594\t提高這個提撥率強制的提撥率那這個部分當然也要有一些誘因那這些誘因就是說可能就是必須大家跨部會來做討論因為這個有時候會牽涉到稅賦的問題這個部分我們\n530976\t533458\t第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案。\n557065\t581392\t我想大家希望朝這個目標不是說就把目標放在那邊就會達到而是真的要有進程做了些什麼至少可以告訴大家我覺得大家之所以現在會很生氣的就是在於我們完全看不到路徑更不能相信我們的目標有可能會達到更不相信政府的誠意在哪裡我想部長你一定很知道勞工朋友的辛苦你剛剛數據也很明顯的呈現出來要靠勞資協議其實是非常非常的困難\n583132\t597438\t即便我們推動倡議了十幾年到現在仍然不到1%是超過6%的部長所以這就是為什麼我們希望能夠看得到如果不論是強制又或者是鼓勵我們都要有清楚的路徑又或者是至少讓我們看到政府願意努力的吧\n599504\t622501\t我會擇由業務單位來做一個規劃就是說我們就這個議題的部分我們一個具體的規劃兩個部分都有具體的規劃一個月內給我們方便嗎?就是一個是能不能朝著6%的部分用法規面上來提升第二個是如果我們透過獎勵的部分我們能如何來做處理因為我還是要再次強調勞工朋友們都在講的是6%不夠花老後被打趴\n622901\t645232\t我想這個部分略怕是大家長期以來的訴求希望能夠提升不論是用修法又或者是退而求其是政府用鼓勵的措施來做努力我覺得這應該要具體來做面對不要再講了十幾年說透過勞資協議透過團體協約我們可以做事實上數據就知道這就是完全非常困難的一件事情了不應該把這樣的責任放到勞工朋友自己要去爭取我覺得勞動部\n647194\t658929\t絕對有責任也必須要承擔起勞工朋友的權益。」希望部長能夠在一個月內把這兩項具體未來會規劃的方式和討論的方式告訴我們,跟大家做一個報告和說明。好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席。\n","txt":"主席有請勞動部委員許部長有請部長我委員好部長你好我們知道過去這個勞退救治的情況之下勞工需要在同一個事業單位累積一定的年資才符合勤領退休金的條件嘛那如果他早上工作被解僱又或者是被迫離職就沒有辦法累積年資又或者是曾經也出現過許多的事業單位惡性倒閉等等造成勞工無法勤領退休金\n所以我們看到這個勞退薪制從2005年上路之後的確來解決了這個部分我想這部分是不可諱言也應該給予肯定的勞退薪制是採用個人的帳戶制之下讓勞工不會因為轉換事業單位而中斷年資可是呢我們也看到在勞退薪制的上路之後大家一直在反映的是我們的勞工團體也一直在訴求的是政府只告訴勞工朋友們勞退薪制可以讓他們更有機會領到退休金可是沒有說的是在於\n二、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一\n僱主提撥6%的比例來說是只有91萬所以比如說在這樣的情況之下就可以很明顯的是如果我們希望能夠讓他們保障到請你的退休金是一樣的情況之下回推回去僱主的提撥比例應該要是高達12.5%我想這個部長您一定很清楚勞工團體們一直在訴求的是我們希望能夠提高僱主的提撥比例當然我也知道部長一直在講\n這個6%是最低的部分其實可以透過勞資協議來做增加但是呢我們也看到相較之下在今年的2023在今年的7月公務人員的退府薪資上路之後強制提撥15%其中政府的負擔是65%意思就換算過來是貴族的提撥率高達9.75%我覺得就是再次的打臉勞工朋友所以我們也看到說\n的確啊這個6%是最低的部分可以透過勞資協議來做提升不過我們也要跟部長這邊來做一個提醒和回憶齁就今年七月的時候下一頁今年七月的時候中華電信工會也有發起了要來調高勞退雇主的提撥比例的的遊行\n而實際上研究之後最終中華電信公司也跳票了他表示說提撥比率涉及了政府的修法所以不願意調整\n所以我想跟部長報告的是即便是這6%是最低但是包括連中華電信和中華電信工會是相對來說比較大的工會了來跟僱主做協商都是這樣的情況是完全沒有辦法提升而且公司仍然認為這個6%是政府明定的所以要調升其實是需要政府來做修法更是還問其他的僱主以及其他的勞工朋友們根本很難達到這樣的比例啦\n所以我想這個議題部長你一定很清楚當時其實你也曾經有承諾當時在因為總統在參加在六月參加全國工會的會員代表大會的時候也提到這部分會持續的來做溝通所以我們其實有兩個問題想要請部長來做說明第一個是這個6%的比例到底實際上有多少的雇主願意提高超過6%還有這個在高於6%的提撥率的情況之下有多少是透過勞資協議來達成的\n報告委員目前那個顧主提繳率超過6%的大概有3,532家的事業單位了。占比?占比大概0.61%啦。是,所以非常少,連1%都不到。尤其是剛剛其實中華電信的工會就已經是一個很明顯的例子。即便像他們是工會比較嚴謹、比較大一些些,即便是中華電信都不認為這個6%以上是他們應該要來共同討論的。因為他當然他\n其實我們法規定是說最低至少6%嘛那其實是可以再增加但是有些時候當然以事業單位顧主委他可能會考慮到他的所增加的一些當然這就是為什麼大家一直在訴求的是這個6%應該要往上提升報告委也因為這個部分其實也變成是比較困難的地方就是說如果以整體來講一年\n三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一\n所以這件事情當然要去...我想老公朋友今天之所以覺得很不公平的或是覺得很受到委屈的是在於我們新救治比起來真的是差非常的多這個部分是剛剛才提到說將這個公務員員退服薪資上路之後其實算起來也是在9.75%那當然我們很希望能夠台灣慢慢發展成勞資的權利是更加平等、地位是更加平等透過勞資協商來做推進可是實務上部長您剛剛的數據其實就很明顯的呈現出來\n不管勞工朋友喊得多大聲,多麼希望透過勞資協定來做處理,可是實際上的發生率不到1%。即便連剛才報告的中華電信這樣子的公司、這樣子的工會都沒有辦法讓他們的僱主能夠願意來承擔,甚至是僱主表示這必須要透過修法,難道我們修法不應該來更加來保障勞工朋友的權益嗎?\n是,報告委因為的確啦齁這個部分當然法律家的民定要鼓勵他們\n及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條\n參議院總統曾承諾過說勞動部會來繼續做努力和溝通我們也想請教一下從六月參議院總統承諾要來做溝通到現在我們做了哪些部分和研議的方向如何以及什麼時候會有一個比較具體的目標\n三、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一\n當時六月承諾會來善盡溝通以及來評估這樣的可能性。我們想問這部分有沒有具體溝通的哪些事情還是就是沒有回答的意思就是沒有溝通?報委我們的溝通方式是多元的啦或許不是正式的一個召開的會議說叫勞資雙方都來就是說在各種場合去跟他們做說明其實就是跟沒有講一樣嗎就是一直在宣示使用\n三、委員賴清德、侯友宜及柯文哲等三位候選人提到,我應該要來調整法律的命令,包括說,如果僱主願意來提高撥補,或許我們可以透過獎勵免稅的機制或是減稅的機制來提高他們撥補的可能性。所以我們想請教,對於這個方向,部長有沒有一個想法,或者是如何能夠來支持又或者是不支持?\n當然對這些僱主希望他們能夠來接受說\n提高這個提撥率強制的提撥率那這個部分當然也要有一些誘因那這些誘因就是說可能就是必須大家跨部會來做討論因為這個有時候會牽涉到稅賦的問題這個部分我們\n第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案。\n我想大家希望朝這個目標不是說就把目標放在那邊就會達到而是真的要有進程做了些什麼至少可以告訴大家我覺得大家之所以現在會很生氣的就是在於我們完全看不到路徑更不能相信我們的目標有可能會達到更不相信政府的誠意在哪裡我想部長你一定很知道勞工朋友的辛苦你剛剛數據也很明顯的呈現出來要靠勞資協議其實是非常非常的困難\n即便我們推動倡議了十幾年到現在仍然不到1%是超過6%的部長所以這就是為什麼我們希望能夠看得到如果不論是強制又或者是鼓勵我們都要有清楚的路徑又或者是至少讓我們看到政府願意努力的吧\n我會擇由業務單位來做一個規劃就是說我們就這個議題的部分我們一個具體的規劃兩個部分都有具體的規劃一個月內給我們方便嗎?就是一個是能不能朝著6%的部分用法規面上來提升第二個是如果我們透過獎勵的部分我們能如何來做處理因為我還是要再次強調勞工朋友們都在講的是6%不夠花老後被打趴\n我想這個部分略怕是大家長期以來的訴求希望能夠提升不論是用修法又或者是退而求其是政府用鼓勵的措施來做努力我覺得這應該要具體來做面對不要再講了十幾年說透過勞資協議透過團體協約我們可以做事實上數據就知道這就是完全非常困難的一件事情了不應該把這樣的責任放到勞工朋友自己要去爭取我覺得勞動部\n絕對有責任也必須要承擔起勞工朋友的權益。」希望部長能夠在一個月內把這兩項具體未來會規劃的方式和討論的方式告訴我們,跟大家做一個報告和說明。好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.638 --> 00:27.428\n主席有請勞動部委員許部長有請部長我委員好部長你好我們知道過去這個勞退救治的情況之下勞工需要在同一個事業單位累積一定的年資才符合勤領退休金的條件嘛那如果他早上工作被解僱又或者是被迫離職就沒有辦法累積年資又或者是曾經也出現過許多的事業單位惡性倒閉等等造成勞工無法勤領退休金\n\n00:27.828 --> 00:54.429\n所以我們看到這個勞退薪制從2005年上路之後的確來解決了這個部分我想這部分是不可諱言也應該給予肯定的勞退薪制是採用個人的帳戶制之下讓勞工不會因為轉換事業單位而中斷年資可是呢我們也看到在勞退薪制的上路之後大家一直在反映的是我們的勞工團體也一直在訴求的是政府只告訴勞工朋友們勞退薪制可以讓他們更有機會領到退休金可是沒有說的是在於\n\n00:55.189 --> 00:57.552\n二、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具«勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一\n\n01:14.088 --> 01:38.403\n僱主提撥6%的比例來說是只有91萬所以比如說在這樣的情況之下就可以很明顯的是如果我們希望能夠讓他們保障到請你的退休金是一樣的情況之下回推回去僱主的提撥比例應該要是高達12.5%我想這個部長您一定很清楚勞工團體們一直在訴求的是我們希望能夠提高僱主的提撥比例當然我也知道部長一直在講\n\n01:39.523 --> 02:02.017\n這個6%是最低的部分其實可以透過勞資協議來做增加但是呢我們也看到相較之下在今年的2023在今年的7月公務人員的退府薪資上路之後強制提撥15%其中政府的負擔是65%意思就換算過來是貴族的提撥率高達9.75%我覺得就是再次的打臉勞工朋友所以我們也看到說\n\n02:02.677 --> 02:17.755\n的確啊這個6%是最低的部分可以透過勞資協議來做提升不過我們也要跟部長這邊來做一個提醒和回憶齁就今年七月的時候下一頁今年七月的時候中華電信工會也有發起了要來調高勞退雇主的提撥比例的的遊行\n\n02:18.456 --> 02:21.238\n而實際上研究之後最終中華電信公司也跳票了他表示說提撥比率涉及了政府的修法所以不願意調整\n\n02:41.331 --> 03:04.814\n所以我想跟部長報告的是即便是這6%是最低但是包括連中華電信和中華電信工會是相對來說比較大的工會了來跟僱主做協商都是這樣的情況是完全沒有辦法提升而且公司仍然認為這個6%是政府明定的所以要調升其實是需要政府來做修法更是還問其他的僱主以及其他的勞工朋友們根本很難達到這樣的比例啦\n\n03:06.235 --> 03:31.466\n所以我想這個議題部長你一定很清楚當時其實你也曾經有承諾當時在因為總統在參加在六月參加全國工會的會員代表大會的時候也提到這部分會持續的來做溝通所以我們其實有兩個問題想要請部長來做說明第一個是這個6%的比例到底實際上有多少的雇主願意提高超過6%還有這個在高於6%的提撥率的情況之下有多少是透過勞資協議來達成的\n\n03:34.806 --> 04:00.315\n報告委員目前那個顧主提繳率超過6%的大概有3,532家的事業單位了。占比?占比大概0.61%啦。是,所以非常少,連1%都不到。尤其是剛剛其實中華電信的工會就已經是一個很明顯的例子。即便像他們是工會比較嚴謹、比較大一些些,即便是中華電信都不認為這個6%以上是他們應該要來共同討論的。因為他當然他\n\n04:04.016 --> 04:27.413\n其實我們法規定是說最低至少6%嘛那其實是可以再增加但是有些時候當然以事業單位顧主委他可能會考慮到他的所增加的一些當然這就是為什麼大家一直在訴求的是這個6%應該要往上提升報告委也因為這個部分其實也變成是比較困難的地方就是說如果以整體來講一年\n\n04:29.494 --> 04:30.877\n三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一\n\n04:38.164 --> 05:02.972\n所以這件事情當然要去...我想老公朋友今天之所以覺得很不公平的或是覺得很受到委屈的是在於我們新救治比起來真的是差非常的多這個部分是剛剛才提到說將這個公務員員退服薪資上路之後其實算起來也是在9.75%那當然我們很希望能夠台灣慢慢發展成勞資的權利是更加平等、地位是更加平等透過勞資協商來做推進可是實務上部長您剛剛的數據其實就很明顯的呈現出來\n\n05:07.773 --> 05:30.993\n不管勞工朋友喊得多大聲,多麼希望透過勞資協定來做處理,可是實際上的發生率不到1%。即便連剛才報告的中華電信這樣子的公司、這樣子的工會都沒有辦法讓他們的僱主能夠願意來承擔,甚至是僱主表示這必須要透過修法,難道我們修法不應該來更加來保障勞工朋友的權益嗎?\n\n05:32.102 --> 05:38.851\n是,報告委因為的確啦齁這個部分當然法律家的民定要鼓勵他們\n\n05:39.788 --> 05:45.273\n及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條\n\n06:05.532 --> 06:09.675\n參議院總統曾承諾過說勞動部會來繼續做努力和溝通我們也想請教一下從六月參議院總統承諾要來做溝通到現在我們做了哪些部分和研議的方向如何以及什麼時候會有一個比較具體的目標\n\n06:26.570 --> 06:27.550\n三、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具\n\n06:47.918 --> 06:50.920\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具«勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一\n\n07:10.549 --> 07:35.434\n當時六月承諾會來善盡溝通以及來評估這樣的可能性。我們想問這部分有沒有具體溝通的哪些事情還是就是沒有回答的意思就是沒有溝通?報委我們的溝通方式是多元的啦或許不是正式的一個召開的會議說叫勞資雙方都來就是說在各種場合去跟他們做說明其實就是跟沒有講一樣嗎就是一直在宣示使用\n\n07:35.734 --> 07:40.958\n三、委員賴清德、侯友宜及柯文哲等三位候選人提到,我應該要來調整法律的命令,包括說,如果僱主願意來提高撥補,或許我們可以透過獎勵免稅的機制或是減稅的機制來提高他們撥補的可能性。所以我們想請教,對於這個方向,部長有沒有一個想法,或者是如何能夠來支持又或者是不支持?\n\n08:05.674 --> 08:06.194\n當然對這些僱主希望他們能夠來接受說\n\n08:35.627 --> 08:46.594\n提高這個提撥率強制的提撥率那這個部分當然也要有一些誘因那這些誘因就是說可能就是必須大家跨部會來做討論因為這個有時候會牽涉到稅賦的問題這個部分我們\n\n08:50.976 --> 08:53.458\n第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案。\n\n09:17.065 --> 09:41.392\n我想大家希望朝這個目標不是說就把目標放在那邊就會達到而是真的要有進程做了些什麼至少可以告訴大家我覺得大家之所以現在會很生氣的就是在於我們完全看不到路徑更不能相信我們的目標有可能會達到更不相信政府的誠意在哪裡我想部長你一定很知道勞工朋友的辛苦你剛剛數據也很明顯的呈現出來要靠勞資協議其實是非常非常的困難\n\n09:43.132 --> 09:57.438\n即便我們推動倡議了十幾年到現在仍然不到1%是超過6%的部長所以這就是為什麼我們希望能夠看得到如果不論是強制又或者是鼓勵我們都要有清楚的路徑又或者是至少讓我們看到政府願意努力的吧\n\n09:59.504 --> 10:22.501\n我會擇由業務單位來做一個規劃就是說我們就這個議題的部分我們一個具體的規劃兩個部分都有具體的規劃一個月內給我們方便嗎?就是一個是能不能朝著6%的部分用法規面上來提升第二個是如果我們透過獎勵的部分我們能如何來做處理因為我還是要再次強調勞工朋友們都在講的是6%不夠花老後被打趴\n\n10:22.901 --> 10:45.232\n我想這個部分略怕是大家長期以來的訴求希望能夠提升不論是用修法又或者是退而求其是政府用鼓勵的措施來做努力我覺得這應該要具體來做面對不要再講了十幾年說透過勞資協議透過團體協約我們可以做事實上數據就知道這就是完全非常困難的一件事情了不應該把這樣的責任放到勞工朋友自己要去爭取我覺得勞動部\n\n10:47.194 --> 10:58.929\n絕對有責任也必須要承擔起勞工朋友的權益。」希望部長能夠在一個月內把這兩項具體未來會規劃的方式和討論的方式告訴我們,跟大家做一個報告和說明。好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席。\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.638,"end":27.428,"text":"主席有請勞動部委員許部長有請部長我委員好部長你好我們知道過去這個勞退救治的情況之下勞工需要在同一個事業單位累積一定的年資才符合勤領退休金的條件嘛那如果他早上工作被解僱又或者是被迫離職就沒有辦法累積年資又或者是曾經也出現過許多的事業單位惡性倒閉等等造成勞工無法勤領退休金"},{"start":27.828,"end":54.429,"text":"所以我們看到這個勞退薪制從2005年上路之後的確來解決了這個部分我想這部分是不可諱言也應該給予肯定的勞退薪制是採用個人的帳戶制之下讓勞工不會因為轉換事業單位而中斷年資可是呢我們也看到在勞退薪制的上路之後大家一直在反映的是我們的勞工團體也一直在訴求的是政府只告訴勞工朋友們勞退薪制可以讓他們更有機會領到退休金可是沒有說的是在於"},{"start":55.189,"end":57.552,"text":"二、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":74.088,"end":98.403,"text":"僱主提撥6%的比例來說是只有91萬所以比如說在這樣的情況之下就可以很明顯的是如果我們希望能夠讓他們保障到請你的退休金是一樣的情況之下回推回去僱主的提撥比例應該要是高達12.5%我想這個部長您一定很清楚勞工團體們一直在訴求的是我們希望能夠提高僱主的提撥比例當然我也知道部長一直在講"},{"start":99.523,"end":122.017,"text":"這個6%是最低的部分其實可以透過勞資協議來做增加但是呢我們也看到相較之下在今年的2023在今年的7月公務人員的退府薪資上路之後強制提撥15%其中政府的負擔是65%意思就換算過來是貴族的提撥率高達9.75%我覺得就是再次的打臉勞工朋友所以我們也看到說"},{"start":122.677,"end":137.755,"text":"的確啊這個6%是最低的部分可以透過勞資協議來做提升不過我們也要跟部長這邊來做一個提醒和回憶齁就今年七月的時候下一頁今年七月的時候中華電信工會也有發起了要來調高勞退雇主的提撥比例的的遊行"},{"start":138.456,"end":141.238,"text":"而實際上研究之後最終中華電信公司也跳票了他表示說提撥比率涉及了政府的修法所以不願意調整"},{"start":161.331,"end":184.814,"text":"所以我想跟部長報告的是即便是這6%是最低但是包括連中華電信和中華電信工會是相對來說比較大的工會了來跟僱主做協商都是這樣的情況是完全沒有辦法提升而且公司仍然認為這個6%是政府明定的所以要調升其實是需要政府來做修法更是還問其他的僱主以及其他的勞工朋友們根本很難達到這樣的比例啦"},{"start":186.235,"end":211.466,"text":"所以我想這個議題部長你一定很清楚當時其實你也曾經有承諾當時在因為總統在參加在六月參加全國工會的會員代表大會的時候也提到這部分會持續的來做溝通所以我們其實有兩個問題想要請部長來做說明第一個是這個6%的比例到底實際上有多少的雇主願意提高超過6%還有這個在高於6%的提撥率的情況之下有多少是透過勞資協議來達成的"},{"start":214.806,"end":240.315,"text":"報告委員目前那個顧主提繳率超過6%的大概有3,532家的事業單位了。占比?占比大概0.61%啦。是,所以非常少,連1%都不到。尤其是剛剛其實中華電信的工會就已經是一個很明顯的例子。即便像他們是工會比較嚴謹、比較大一些些,即便是中華電信都不認為這個6%以上是他們應該要來共同討論的。因為他當然他"},{"start":244.016,"end":267.413,"text":"其實我們法規定是說最低至少6%嘛那其實是可以再增加但是有些時候當然以事業單位顧主委他可能會考慮到他的所增加的一些當然這就是為什麼大家一直在訴求的是這個6%應該要往上提升報告委也因為這個部分其實也變成是比較困難的地方就是說如果以整體來講一年"},{"start":269.494,"end":270.877,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":278.164,"end":302.972,"text":"所以這件事情當然要去...我想老公朋友今天之所以覺得很不公平的或是覺得很受到委屈的是在於我們新救治比起來真的是差非常的多這個部分是剛剛才提到說將這個公務員員退服薪資上路之後其實算起來也是在9.75%那當然我們很希望能夠台灣慢慢發展成勞資的權利是更加平等、地位是更加平等透過勞資協商來做推進可是實務上部長您剛剛的數據其實就很明顯的呈現出來"},{"start":307.773,"end":330.993,"text":"不管勞工朋友喊得多大聲,多麼希望透過勞資協定來做處理,可是實際上的發生率不到1%。即便連剛才報告的中華電信這樣子的公司、這樣子的工會都沒有辦法讓他們的僱主能夠願意來承擔,甚至是僱主表示這必須要透過修法,難道我們修法不應該來更加來保障勞工朋友的權益嗎?"},{"start":332.102,"end":338.851,"text":"是,報告委因為的確啦齁這個部分當然法律家的民定要鼓勵他們"},{"start":339.788,"end":345.273,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條"},{"start":365.532,"end":369.675,"text":"參議院總統曾承諾過說勞動部會來繼續做努力和溝通我們也想請教一下從六月參議院總統承諾要來做溝通到現在我們做了哪些部分和研議的方向如何以及什麼時候會有一個比較具體的目標"},{"start":386.57,"end":387.55,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具"},{"start":407.918,"end":410.92,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":430.549,"end":455.434,"text":"當時六月承諾會來善盡溝通以及來評估這樣的可能性。我們想問這部分有沒有具體溝通的哪些事情還是就是沒有回答的意思就是沒有溝通?報委我們的溝通方式是多元的啦或許不是正式的一個召開的會議說叫勞資雙方都來就是說在各種場合去跟他們做說明其實就是跟沒有講一樣嗎就是一直在宣示使用"},{"start":455.734,"end":460.958,"text":"三、委員賴清德、侯友宜及柯文哲等三位候選人提到,我應該要來調整法律的命令,包括說,如果僱主願意來提高撥補,或許我們可以透過獎勵免稅的機制或是減稅的機制來提高他們撥補的可能性。所以我們想請教,對於這個方向,部長有沒有一個想法,或者是如何能夠來支持又或者是不支持?"},{"start":485.674,"end":486.194,"text":"當然對這些僱主希望他們能夠來接受說"},{"start":515.627,"end":526.594,"text":"提高這個提撥率強制的提撥率那這個部分當然也要有一些誘因那這些誘因就是說可能就是必須大家跨部會來做討論因為這個有時候會牽涉到稅賦的問題這個部分我們"},{"start":530.976,"end":533.458,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":557.065,"end":581.392,"text":"我想大家希望朝這個目標不是說就把目標放在那邊就會達到而是真的要有進程做了些什麼至少可以告訴大家我覺得大家之所以現在會很生氣的就是在於我們完全看不到路徑更不能相信我們的目標有可能會達到更不相信政府的誠意在哪裡我想部長你一定很知道勞工朋友的辛苦你剛剛數據也很明顯的呈現出來要靠勞資協議其實是非常非常的困難"},{"start":583.132,"end":597.438,"text":"即便我們推動倡議了十幾年到現在仍然不到1%是超過6%的部長所以這就是為什麼我們希望能夠看得到如果不論是強制又或者是鼓勵我們都要有清楚的路徑又或者是至少讓我們看到政府願意努力的吧"},{"start":599.504,"end":622.501,"text":"我會擇由業務單位來做一個規劃就是說我們就這個議題的部分我們一個具體的規劃兩個部分都有具體的規劃一個月內給我們方便嗎?就是一個是能不能朝著6%的部分用法規面上來提升第二個是如果我們透過獎勵的部分我們能如何來做處理因為我還是要再次強調勞工朋友們都在講的是6%不夠花老後被打趴"},{"start":622.901,"end":645.232,"text":"我想這個部分略怕是大家長期以來的訴求希望能夠提升不論是用修法又或者是退而求其是政府用鼓勵的措施來做努力我覺得這應該要具體來做面對不要再講了十幾年說透過勞資協議透過團體協約我們可以做事實上數據就知道這就是完全非常困難的一件事情了不應該把這樣的責任放到勞工朋友自己要去爭取我覺得勞動部"},{"start":647.194,"end":658.929,"text":"絕對有責任也必須要承擔起勞工朋友的權益。」希望部長能夠在一個月內把這兩項具體未來會規劃的方式和討論的方式告訴我們,跟大家做一個報告和說明。好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席。"}]}}}}