{"id":149018,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149018","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d6b042a0f393a6d701ab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a0322e9d50a309363faa25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"11:12:32 - 11:26:39","影片長度":"00:14:07","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":847,"end_time":"2023-12-13T11:26:39+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T11:12:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":719,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時12分）請許部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我今天還是想要跟勞動部討論關於工安的問題，你覺得我們臺灣的工安，目前的預警、預防做得怎麼樣？"],["許部長銘春：還要再加油啦！"],["洪委員申翰：還要再加油，是不是？部長，我們最近看到還是發生很多起嚴重的工安意外，我請部長看一下下面這幾則新聞。這是昨天發生在捷運信義線東延段施工的工安意外，目前有一名工人墜落命危；再下面一起，這一起是11月底的時候發生在林口的工安意外，這個意外事件跟臺中中捷的事件很像，都是吊車斷裂掉落，這次砸在公車亭，但是這個事件還好，人跑得快，沒有被砸傷。部長，這些發生在工作場所或者是生活周遭的工安事故，其實現在擔心的不只是勞工，連附近的居民都很擔心，部長，你可以體會跟瞭解嗎？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你知道如果住家附近的工地發生事故，有鷹架或是這些起重機的吊臂突然掉下來，你走在附近，你會不會有點擔心？會嗎？"],["許部長銘春：會。"],["洪委員申翰：會喔，好。大家都很擔心，可是現在看到這麼多的新聞，我的辦公室也會接到民眾的電話，大家會來詢問這些發生在附近的案件，到底政府有沒有去檢查？檢查完以後有沒有改善？有沒有去罰？其實大家都在問這個問題喔。"],["許部長銘春：都有。"],["洪委員申翰：所以現在民眾很擔心這沒有督導，也很擔心這些災難會發生在自己的身上，更擔心會不會發生就像臺中林淑雅老師的這個事件。部長，你會不會想預防這些悲劇？"],["許部長銘春：當然。"],["洪委員申翰：如果可以建立預警機制的話，你會不會想建立？"],["許部長銘春：當然要建立。"],["洪委員申翰：好，部長，我相信你的回答是這樣。那現在臺灣的建築工地這麼多，勞動部可能也不一定有量能一一去進行勞檢，所以我自己覺得這裡面有一個很關鍵的事情是要怎麼把高風險的名單建立起來，甚至對外揭露可能很重要，部長同意嗎？"],["許部長銘春：同意。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，其實我在去年4月曾經開了一場記者會，這場記者會的主題叫做「沒有死傷的工安事故就沒人管」，在這場記者會上面我有要求勞動部應該彙整並公開工安事故的紀錄還有後續勞檢的紀錄，在今年5月的時候我其實也質詢過勞動部，當時勞動部的李俊俋次長也承諾會建立一個公開查詢的系統，把勞檢相關的處理紀錄放在這個系統中，可以供大家查詢，其核心的概念就是希望讓大家可以知道高風險的場域、高風險的職場、高風險的地方，。部長，我認為這個要求其實真的並不高，只要有發生意外，勞動部有去勞檢也做出處分，其實就讓大家知道相關的處分嘛！我們不是偷偷摸摸的處分，對不對？尤其是這個工安事件如果是火災、爆炸、化學品洩漏、鷹架倒塌、外牆倒塌，就算沒有死傷，但是這應該都是職安高風險的地方，部長同意嗎？"],["許部長銘春：同意。"],["洪委員申翰：沒有死傷，但是發生這種事情，也是高風險的地方啊！"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["洪委員申翰：沒有死傷可能只是這次運氣好啊！就像剛才講的在公車亭的人，可能只是上面的人跑得快啊！部長，後來勞動部做了什麼？在我做了這個要求以後，部長知道勞動部後來做了什麼嗎？署長知不知道？"],["許部長銘春：我們有開會，署長可以說明。"],["鄒署長子廉：有找大家來討論。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，後來職安署創了一個「媒體報導重大災害訊息」，媒體有報導的才放上來，但是請部長看一下，從這些內容，其實我們都不會知道事故發生的地點在哪裡，也不知道是哪一個廠商，後續到底發生什麼或者有沒有改善什麼，我們在這個「媒體報導重大災害訊息」裡面都看不到。所以如果民眾看完之後回到勞動部的裁罰系統裡面，因為他也不知道發生日期跟發生地點，所以他也不知道到底是不是同一個案件。我在這邊提醒勞動部一件事情，就是現在我們看到你們的這個系統，甚至是直接貼上來，把職災受害者的姓名直接公布出來，然後公布一年多了都沒有拿掉。部長，我們發現這個系統是該公布的沒公布，不該公布的卻把它公布在上面，已經一年多了，都沒有拿下來，反而是不該被揭露的受害者姓名被放在上面。部長，你覺得這個系統需不需要改善？"],["許部長銘春：委員，這個要改善，像這個系統做這樣的揭露，我覺得是很不OK的。我所理解的是他們在明年1月1日馬上會有一個系統上線，就是我們勞動部有一個違反勞動法令事業單位查詢系統，有關職安衛的部分會增加發生日期、發生地的欄位，到時候就是如果有發生職災，我們的檢查還有處分等部分都會在這邊揭露。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你知不知道其實你們有開了一個研商會議，這個研商會議所公布的範圍限縮在職安法第三十七條第三項，也就是勞動部已經有去檢查和處分的案件裡面，只有發生勞工死亡或重傷才要公布發生日期跟發生地點，我不清楚你知不知道這件事情，就是把它限縮了！所以我的意思是什麼？我更簡單地跟大家說，像我們現在已經發生的、已經去勞檢、裁罰的這個中捷事件，還有這次林口吊車吊臂斷裂的事件，按照現在職安法第三十七條第三項裡面，對不起，按照你們召開的研商會議的紀錄，都是不用公開的喔！因為裡面沒有勞工死亡，對不起，中捷事件死亡的是乘客林淑雅　老師，不是勞工死亡，所以按照你們現在研商會議的內容，像中捷事件，像剛才說的這個林口吊車吊臂斷裂事件，都是不用公開的喔！許部長，我們既然說要公開，為什麼不把事情給做到位？如果大家上去查發現，明明這麼嚴重的中捷事件，結果上面居然沒有紀錄，不用公開，民眾的感受是什麼？部長，你知不知道現在我們要公布的範圍被嚴重限縮，只有勞工死亡才要公開，所以中捷事故是不用公開的。"],["許部長銘春：我是覺得職安署要再整個檢討一下，這件事情委員也關心好幾次，我覺得我們要做就把它做好，該揭露就揭露啦！"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我知道職安署會說這是法規問題，我要說這件事情其實早在環境部還在環保署的時候，也就是它還是署的時候就都已經做到了，在他們的系統裡面，其實裁處的日期、裁處的公司名稱、違反的日期都一清二楚，我甚至都曾經建議過勞動部，你甚至都可以把……假如它有改善，你也可以把它放到網路上面，我也沒意見，它做不好的地方，我們公布，它後來有改善，以後的結果你也可以公布，我也都沒意見，不要讓這個廠商覺得好像犯錯一件事情，我就被貼標籤一輩子，你說我已經改善了，你們去查，它改善了，你要公布，我也沒意見，但把事情給揭露就是預警機制啊！這是把高風險的狀況給預警出來。我認為現在職安署不乾不脆，甚至自己限縮，為什麼環保署做得到的事情勞動部做不到？署長，為什麼？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，我們職安法對有些項目是沒有授權揭露，我想或許明年職安法修法的時候把這個法規授權更有效的讓我們來執行，我想這是我們會先處理的。至於委員這兩個月一直督導我們、push我們，非常感謝，因為揭露資訊，讓民眾有來查的空間，我們也認為是非常核心的重點。至於說是全部都揭露，我們有一些法規的部分，我個人覺得還是要有法規授權比較得當。"],["洪委員申翰：署長，對你這個說法我要挑戰，這是你們做的行政處分欸，你們做的行政處分有什麼好不能揭露的？你們是偷偷摸摸嗎？你們自己去勞檢有處罰，這是你們做的行政處分，為什麼不能揭露？只要把必要的個資資訊隱蔽起來，什麼地方不能揭露？你告訴我，這是你們的行政處分，我沒有要去公布他們的商業機密啊！你只要把個資隱蔽起來，為什麼不能揭露？你給我一個理由。署長，這跟法規授權……對不起，這是你們的行政處分欸，你們去勞檢以後，只是因為沒有勞工死亡，為什麼這樣就不能揭露？我聽不懂，我知道有法規授權更好，但我完全聽不懂，為什麼你們的行政處分不能讓社會知道，難道現在勞動部網站上所有公開的行政處分，都是有法規，都一條一條授權才可以嗎？我不知道為什麼行政處分不能夠讓社會大眾知道。"],["許部長銘春：委員，沒關係，我請職安署好好的把這件事情做好，相關如果是有牽涉到他們疑慮的法規範的部分，我會請法務司這邊來幫忙，我們務必要把預警的一些機制建立好。"],["洪委員申翰：署長，我要提醒一件事情，之前我們在修職安法的時候，我們其實也討論過揭露的問題，當時職安署跟大家的說法都是說不要寫太細啦！結果現在不要寫太細變成你們不揭露的理由了。"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，職安法是102年修的。"],["洪委員申翰：不是，我是說當時我們在討論相關事情的時候，我們都說我們不要寫太細，我現在的意思是說，署長，這些是可以揭露的事情，沒有不行，只是你要做或不做，我覺得不用拿法規來搪塞，有法規當然更好。"],["鄒署長子廉：是。"],["洪委員申翰：但我認為社會大眾沒辦法接受像中捷這麼離譜的事情，居然在上面完全看不到，像剛才說林口的這個吊車吊臂的事情，大家看不到，我覺得這是大家沒辦法接受的事情。部長，大概多久時間可以把這個系統給處理好？不是只是推出一個系統來而已，而是把該公開的，而且是真正能夠達到預警效果的，我要求這件事已經要求很久，我不是要求為了公開而公開，我不是為了這個事情，我不是要求形式上面你給我一個交代，我們是希望有達到預警效果的，真正把高風險的地方可以公開出來。","我都說了，你要說它已經有改善，你把它改善的狀況也公開出來，我都不反對，你讓大家知道這個雇主或者是這個老闆他有做了努力，我也不反對，但現在不是啊！我覺得現在像擠牙膏一樣，一點、一點、一點，可是整個看起來就達不到預警機制的效果啊！部長，你覺得多久時間可以把這事情給做好？"],["鄒署長子廉：金額的部分確實要請法務司來幫忙……"],["許部長銘春：講一個時間嘛。"],["鄒署長子廉：2個月我們來處理。"],["洪委員申翰：2個月是不是？好，部長、署長，2個月的時間好不好？我同意2個月的時間，但我們就把它做到位好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["洪委員申翰：不要再找理由牽拖了，我已經質詢很多次了，但每一次都是這樣擠牙膏一點、一點的，坦白說，我是很失望的，可以嗎？麻煩部長好好督導這個事情。"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。有請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 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\"start\": 824.074, \"end\": 824.174, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 824.174, \"end\": 824.294, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 824.294, \"end\": 824.414, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 824.414, \"end\": 824.434, \"score\": 0.199}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:22,230 --> 00:00:45,887\n新徐部長劉晴部長同委你好部長我今天還是想要來跟勞工部討論關於公安的問題喔嗯哼部長你覺得我們台灣的公安目前的預警預防做的怎麼樣還要再加油還要再加油啦\n\n2\n00:00:46,357 --> 00:00:48,658\n第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案。\n\n3\n00:01:10,700 --> 00:01:37,567\n這一起是11月底的時候發生在林口的公安意外這個意外的事件跟臺中終結的事件很像都是吊車斷裂掉落砸在公車亭但在這個事件還好人跑得快沒有被砸傷不想這些發生在工作場所或者是生活周遭公安的事故其實現在擔心的不只是勞工囉\n\n4\n00:01:39,271 --> 00:02:02,426\n連附近的居民都很擔心,部長你可以體會跟了解嗎?是。部長所以如果你知道如果住家附近的工地發生事故有鷹架或者是這些其中的吊壁工人掉下來你走在附近你會不會有點擔心?會。會嗎?會。會齁,好。大家都很擔心啊可是現在看到這麼多的新聞齁\n\n5\n00:02:04,065 --> 00:02:32,816\n我的辦公室其實也會接到民眾的電話大家會來詢問這些發生在附近的案件到底政府有沒有去檢查檢查完以後有沒有改善有沒有去罰其實大家都要問這個問題所以現在民眾很擔心這沒有督導那也很擔心這些災難會發生在自己的身上更擔心會不會就像臺中的林淑雅老師的這個事件\n\n6\n00:02:34,451 --> 00:02:46,499\n不然這些悲劇你會不會想預防當然如果可以建立預警機制的話會不會想建立當然要建立不然我相信你的回答是這樣\n\n7\n00:02:49,985 --> 00:03:05,266\n現在台灣的建築工地這麼多勞工不可能也不一定有量能一一的去勞檢所以我自己覺得這裡面一個很關鍵的事情是要怎麼把高風險的名單給建立起來甚至對外揭露可能很重要部長同意嗎同意\n\n8\n00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:35,289\n在去年的四月我其實曾經開了一場記者會這場記者會的主題叫做沒有死傷的公安事故沒人管在這場記者會上面我其實要求勞動部應該彙整並公開公安事故的紀錄還有後續勞檢的紀錄那在今年五月的時候我其實也質詢過勞動部那當時勞動部的李俊逸次長那也承諾會建立一個公開查詢的系統\n\n9\n00:03:36,553 --> 00:03:39,514\n其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一\n\n10\n00:03:55,458 --> 00:04:10,985\n立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第\n\n11\n00:04:21,260 --> 00:04:43,398\n沒有死傷但發生這些事情也是高風險的地方啊沒死傷可能只是這次運氣好啊就像剛才在公車停可能只是下面的人跑得快啊但部長後來勞動部做了什麼我在做這個要求後部長知不知道勞動部後來做了什麼部長知不知道我們有開會部長後來治安署創了一個叫做媒體報導重大災害訊息\n\n12\n00:04:50,784 --> 00:05:08,616\n將媒體有報導的才放上來但請部長看一下這些內容其實我們都不會知道事故發生的地點在哪裡也不知道是哪個廠商後續到底發了什麼或者有沒有改善什麼在這一個媒體重大災害訊息裡面我們都看不到我們都看不到\n\n13\n00:05:11,690 --> 00:05:38,501\n所以如果民眾看完回到勞動部的裁罰系統裡面因為他也不知道發生日期跟發生地點所以他也不知道到底是不是同一個案件我這邊提醒勞工部一件事情就是你們的現在甚至我們看到你們的這個系統甚至喔直接貼上來直接把職災的受害者的姓名直接公布出來喔然後公布一年多都沒有拿掉喔\n\n14\n00:05:39,611 --> 00:05:58,525\n所以部長這個系統我們發現是該公佈的沒公佈不該公佈的卻把它公佈在上面一年多沒有拿下來反而不該被揭露的受害者不能被放在上面所以部長你覺得這個系統需不需要改善\n\n15\n00:06:00,207 --> 00:06:11,614\n議員,這個要改善。這樣的一個系統這樣的揭露我覺得很不OK。所以我所理解的是他們目前\n\n16\n00:06:12,967 --> 00:06:38,473\n在明年1月1日馬上會上線的就是我們一個勞動部違反勞動法律世界單位財運系統有關職安位的部分會增加有發生日期發生地的這個欄位那大概這個部分應該就是到時候就是說我們有這個職災的我們也檢查還有那個\n\n17\n00:06:43,315 --> 00:07:10,727\n處分的部分都會在這邊揭露。部長你知不知道其實你們開了一個研商會議這個研商會議公佈的範圍限縮在職安法第37條第三項也就是勞動部已經有去檢查和處分的案件裡只有勞工死亡跟重傷才要公佈發生日期跟發生地點我不知道你知不知道這件事情他把他限縮了所以我的意思是什麼更簡單跟大家說像是我們現在已經發生的\n\n18\n00:07:12,435 --> 00:07:39,955\n已經去勞檢裁罰的終結的這個事件還有這次林口吊車斷裂事故的事件按照現在的職安法第37條第三項裡面對不起按照你們召開的研商會議的記錄都是不用公開的喔因為裡面沒有勞工死亡對不起死亡的是終結事件死亡的是陳克林蘇亞老師不是勞工死亡\n\n19\n00:07:41,934 --> 00:08:04,233\n所以按照你們現在研商會議的內容像終結事件像是剛才說的這個林口吊車斷裂事件都是不用公開的喔徐副長我們說既然說要公開為什麼不把就把事情給做到位如果大家上去查發現欸\n\n20\n00:08:07,591 --> 00:08:32,527\n明明這麼嚴重的終結的事件結果在上面居然沒有記錄不用公開民眾的感受是什麼?部長你知不知道現在我們的要公佈的範圍被嚴重限縮只有勞工死亡才要所以終結事故是不用公開的這個齁我是覺得治安署你們再要再整個再檢討一下啦我覺得\n\n21\n00:08:33,294 --> 00:08:40,860\n這件事情我覺得委員關心好幾次我覺得我們要做就把它做好該揭露的就揭露了\n\n22\n00:08:44,441 --> 00:09:11,627\n我想說這件事情其實環境部還在環保署的時候還是署的時候其實都已經做到了啦在他們的系統裡面其實採儲的日期採儲的公司名稱違反的日期其實都一清二楚我甚至曾經都建議過勞動部你甚至都可以把假如他有改善你也可以把他放到網路上面去我也沒意見\n\n23\n00:09:13,713 --> 00:09:30,527\n立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12條條文修正草案：立法院第13屆第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14\n\n24\n00:09:33,169 --> 00:09:44,288\n這是把高風險的狀況給預警出來現在我認為現在治安署不乾不脆甚至自己先說為什麼環保署做得到的事情為什麼勞工部做不到?署長為什麼?\n\n25\n00:09:49,123 --> 00:10:11,528\n我們執法法對有些項目是沒有授權揭露這邊我們想或許明年我們執法修法的時候把這個法規授權更有效的讓我們來做執行我想這是我們會先處理的那至於說委員這兩次這兩個月一直督導我們push我們我們非常感謝因為揭露資訊讓民眾來的空間都是我們也是認為是非常核心的重點\n\n26\n00:10:12,188 --> 00:10:38,760\n那至於說是全部都揭露我們有一些法規的部分的我個人覺得還是要有法規所以比較得當了署長我對你這個說法我要挑戰這是你們做的行政處分欸你們做的行政處分有什麼好不能揭露的你們是偷偷摸摸嗎你們自己去勞檢有處罰這是你們做的行政處分為什麼不能揭露只要把必要的各自的資訊給隱蔽起來\n\n27\n00:10:42,753 --> 00:10:53,001\n這什麼地方不能揭露你告訴我這是你們行政處分我沒有要去公佈他們的商業機密啊你只要把個資隱蔽起來為什麼不能揭露你給我一個理由署長這跟法規授權對不起這是你們的行政處分欸你們去勞檢以後只是因為他沒有勞工死亡為什麼這樣就不能揭露\n\n28\n00:11:12,574 --> 00:11:33,308\n我聽不懂我知道有法規授權更好但我完全聽不懂為什麼你們行政處分不能讓社會知道難道現在勞動部網站上面的所有公開的行政處分都是有法規都有一條一條授權才可以嗎我不知道為什麼行政處分不能夠讓社會大眾知道那個沒關係我請治安署這邊齁把這件事情\n\n29\n00:11:41,718 --> 00:12:01,431\n兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第\n\n30\n00:12:09,994 --> 00:12:28,803\n報告委員責任法是102年修的不是我說當時我們在討論相關的事情的時候我們都會說我們不要寫太細我現在意思是說市長事實是可以揭露的事情沒有不行只是你要做或不做我覺得不用拿法規來搪塞有法規當然更好\n\n31\n00:12:30,834 --> 00:12:41,926\n但我認為社會大眾沒辦法接受像終結這麼離譜的事情居然在上面完全看不到像剛才說林口的這個吊車吊幣的事情大家看不到我覺得這大家沒辦法接受的事情是不是可以部長\n\n32\n00:12:45,395 --> 00:12:48,417\n第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一\n\n33\n00:13:16,797 --> 00:13:40,537\n你讓大家知道這個僱主或者是這個老闆他有做的努力我也不反對但現在不是啊我覺得現在是這個像擠牙膏一樣一點一點一點可是整個看起來就達不到預警機制的這個效果啊部長你覺得多久時間我們可以把這事情給做好金額的部分確實要請保護師來幫忙不是講一個時間嘛\n\n34\n00:13:43,753 --> 00:13:44,434\n兩月我們要處理好了。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n22230\t45887\t新徐部長劉晴部長同委你好部長我今天還是想要來跟勞工部討論關於公安的問題喔嗯哼部長你覺得我們台灣的公安目前的預警預防做的怎麼樣還要再加油還要再加油啦\n46357\t48658\t第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案 案。\n70700\t97567\t這一起是11月底的時候發生在林口的公安意外這個意外的事件跟臺中終結的事件很像都是吊車斷裂掉落砸在公車亭但在這個事件還好人跑得快沒有被砸傷不想這些發生在工作場所或者是生活周遭公安的事故其實現在擔心的不只是勞工囉\n99271\t122426\t連附近的居民都很擔心,部長你可以體會跟了解嗎?是。部長所以如果你知道如果住家附近的工地發生事故有鷹架或者是這些其中的吊壁工人掉下來你走在附近你會不會有點擔心?會。會嗎?會。會齁,好。大家都很擔心啊可是現在看到這麼多的新聞齁\n124065\t152816\t我的辦公室其實也會接到民眾的電話大家會來詢問這些發生在附近的案件到底政府有沒有去檢查檢查完以後有沒有改善有沒有去罰其實大家都要問這個問題所以現在民眾很擔心這沒有督導那也很擔心這些災難會發生在自己的身上更擔心會不會就像臺中的林淑雅老師的這個事件\n154451\t166499\t不然這些悲劇你會不會想預防當然如果可以建立預警機制的話會不會想建立當然要建立不然我相信你的回答是這樣\n169985\t185266\t現在台灣的建築工地這麼多勞工不可能也不一定有量能一一的去勞檢所以我自己覺得這裡面一個很關鍵的事情是要怎麼把高風險的名單給建立起來甚至對外揭露可能很重要部長同意嗎同意\n187160\t215289\t在去年的四月我其實曾經開了一場記者會這場記者會的主題叫做沒有死傷的公安事故沒人管在這場記者會上面我其實要求勞動部應該彙整並公開公安事故的紀錄還有後續勞檢的紀錄那在今年五月的時候我其實也質詢過勞動部那當時勞動部的李俊逸次長那也承諾會建立一個公開查詢的系統\n216553\t219514\t其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一\n235458\t250985\t立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第\n261260\t283398\t沒有死傷但發生這些事情也是高風險的地方啊沒死傷可能只是這次運氣好啊就像剛才在公車停可能只是下面的人跑得快啊但部長後來勞動部做了什麼我在做這個要求後部長知不知道勞動部後來做了什麼部長知不知道我們有開會部長後來治安署創了一個叫做媒體報導重大災害訊息\n290784\t308616\t將媒體有報導的才放上來但請部長看一下這些內容其實我們都不會知道事故發生的地點在哪裡也不知道是哪個廠商後續到底發了什麼或者有沒有改善什麼在這一個媒體重大災害訊息裡面我們都看不到我們都看不到\n311690\t338501\t所以如果民眾看完回到勞動部的裁罰系統裡面因為他也不知道發生日期跟發生地點所以他也不知道到底是不是同一個案件我這邊提醒勞工部一件事情就是你們的現在甚至我們看到你們的這個系統甚至喔直接貼上來直接把職災的受害者的姓名直接公布出來喔然後公布一年多都沒有拿掉喔\n339611\t358525\t所以部長這個系統我們發現是該公佈的沒公佈不該公佈的卻把它公佈在上面一年多沒有拿下來反而不該被揭露的受害者不能被放在上面所以部長你覺得這個系統需不需要改善\n360207\t371614\t議員,這個要改善。這樣的一個系統這樣的揭露我覺得很不OK。所以我所理解的是他們目前\n372967\t398473\t在明年1月1日馬上會上線的就是我們一個勞動部違反勞動法律世界單位財運系統有關職安位的部分會增加有發生日期發生地的這個欄位那大概這個部分應該就是到時候就是說我們有這個職災的我們也檢查還有那個\n403315\t430727\t處分的部分都會在這邊揭露。部長你知不知道其實你們開了一個研商會議這個研商會議公佈的範圍限縮在職安法第37條第三項也就是勞動部已經有去檢查和處分的案件裡只有勞工死亡跟重傷才要公佈發生日期跟發生地點我不知道你知不知道這件事情他把他限縮了所以我的意思是什麼更簡單跟大家說像是我們現在已經發生的\n432435\t459955\t已經去勞檢裁罰的終結的這個事件還有這次林口吊車斷裂事故的事件按照現在的職安法第37條第三項裡面對不起按照你們召開的研商會議的記錄都是不用公開的喔因為裡面沒有勞工死亡對不起死亡的是終結事件死亡的是陳克林蘇亞老師不是勞工死亡\n461934\t484233\t所以按照你們現在研商會議的內容像終結事件像是剛才說的這個林口吊車斷裂事件都是不用公開的喔徐副長我們說既然說要公開為什麼不把就把事情給做到位如果大家上去查發現欸\n487591\t512527\t明明這麼嚴重的終結的事件結果在上面居然沒有記錄不用公開民眾的感受是什麼?部長你知不知道現在我們的要公佈的範圍被嚴重限縮只有勞工死亡才要所以終結事故是不用公開的這個齁我是覺得治安署你們再要再整個再檢討一下啦我覺得\n513294\t520860\t這件事情我覺得委員關心好幾次我覺得我們要做就把它做好該揭露的就揭露了\n524441\t551627\t我想說這件事情其實環境部還在環保署的時候還是署的時候其實都已經做到了啦在他們的系統裡面其實採儲的日期採儲的公司名稱違反的日期其實都一清二楚我甚至曾經都建議過勞動部你甚至都可以把假如他有改善你也可以把他放到網路上面去我也沒意見\n553713\t570527\t立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12條條文修正草案：立法院第13屆第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14\n573169\t584288\t這是把高風險的狀況給預警出來現在我認為現在治安署不乾不脆甚至自己先說為什麼環保署做得到的事情為什麼勞工部做不到?署長為什麼?\n589123\t611528\t我們執法法對有些項目是沒有授權揭露這邊我們想或許明年我們執法修法的時候把這個法規授權更有效的讓我們來做執行我想這是我們會先處理的那至於說委員這兩次這兩個月一直督導我們push我們我們非常感謝因為揭露資訊讓民眾來的空間都是我們也是認為是非常核心的重點\n612188\t638760\t那至於說是全部都揭露我們有一些法規的部分的我個人覺得還是要有法規所以比較得當了署長我對你這個說法我要挑戰這是你們做的行政處分欸你們做的行政處分有什麼好不能揭露的你們是偷偷摸摸嗎你們自己去勞檢有處罰這是你們做的行政處分為什麼不能揭露只要把必要的各自的資訊給隱蔽起來\n642753\t653001\t這什麼地方不能揭露你告訴我這是你們行政處分我沒有要去公佈他們的商業機密啊你只要把個資隱蔽起來為什麼不能揭露你給我一個理由署長這跟法規授權對不起這是你們的行政處分欸你們去勞檢以後只是因為他沒有勞工死亡為什麼這樣就不能揭露\n672574\t693308\t我聽不懂我知道有法規授權更好但我完全聽不懂為什麼你們行政處分不能讓社會知道難道現在勞動部網站上面的所有公開的行政處分都是有法規都有一條一條授權才可以嗎我不知道為什麼行政處分不能夠讓社會大眾知道那個沒關係我請治安署這邊齁把這件事情\n701718\t721431\t兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第\n729994\t748803\t報告委員責任法是102年修的不是我說當時我們在討論相關的事情的時候我們都會說我們不要寫太細我現在意思是說市長事實是可以揭露的事情沒有不行只是你要做或不做我覺得不用拿法規來搪塞有法規當然更好\n750834\t761926\t但我認為社會大眾沒辦法接受像終結這麼離譜的事情居然在上面完全看不到像剛才說林口的這個吊車吊幣的事情大家看不到我覺得這大家沒辦法接受的事情是不是可以部長\n765395\t768417\t第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一\n796797\t820537\t你讓大家知道這個僱主或者是這個老闆他有做的努力我也不反對但現在不是啊我覺得現在是這個像擠牙膏一樣一點一點一點可是整個看起來就達不到預警機制的這個效果啊部長你覺得多久時間我們可以把這事情給做好金額的部分確實要請保護師來幫忙不是講一個時間嘛\n823753\t824434\t兩月我們要處理好了。\n","txt":"新徐部長劉晴部長同委你好部長我今天還是想要來跟勞工部討論關於公安的問題喔嗯哼部長你覺得我們台灣的公安目前的預警預防做的怎麼樣還要再加油還要再加油啦\n第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案 案。\n這一起是11月底的時候發生在林口的公安意外這個意外的事件跟臺中終結的事件很像都是吊車斷裂掉落砸在公車亭但在這個事件還好人跑得快沒有被砸傷不想這些發生在工作場所或者是生活周遭公安的事故其實現在擔心的不只是勞工囉\n連附近的居民都很擔心,部長你可以體會跟了解嗎?是。部長所以如果你知道如果住家附近的工地發生事故有鷹架或者是這些其中的吊壁工人掉下來你走在附近你會不會有點擔心?會。會嗎?會。會齁,好。大家都很擔心啊可是現在看到這麼多的新聞齁\n我的辦公室其實也會接到民眾的電話大家會來詢問這些發生在附近的案件到底政府有沒有去檢查檢查完以後有沒有改善有沒有去罰其實大家都要問這個問題所以現在民眾很擔心這沒有督導那也很擔心這些災難會發生在自己的身上更擔心會不會就像臺中的林淑雅老師的這個事件\n不然這些悲劇你會不會想預防當然如果可以建立預警機制的話會不會想建立當然要建立不然我相信你的回答是這樣\n現在台灣的建築工地這麼多勞工不可能也不一定有量能一一的去勞檢所以我自己覺得這裡面一個很關鍵的事情是要怎麼把高風險的名單給建立起來甚至對外揭露可能很重要部長同意嗎同意\n在去年的四月我其實曾經開了一場記者會這場記者會的主題叫做沒有死傷的公安事故沒人管在這場記者會上面我其實要求勞動部應該彙整並公開公安事故的紀錄還有後續勞檢的紀錄那在今年五月的時候我其實也質詢過勞動部那當時勞動部的李俊逸次長那也承諾會建立一個公開查詢的系統\n其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一\n立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第\n沒有死傷但發生這些事情也是高風險的地方啊沒死傷可能只是這次運氣好啊就像剛才在公車停可能只是下面的人跑得快啊但部長後來勞動部做了什麼我在做這個要求後部長知不知道勞動部後來做了什麼部長知不知道我們有開會部長後來治安署創了一個叫做媒體報導重大災害訊息\n將媒體有報導的才放上來但請部長看一下這些內容其實我們都不會知道事故發生的地點在哪裡也不知道是哪個廠商後續到底發了什麼或者有沒有改善什麼在這一個媒體重大災害訊息裡面我們都看不到我們都看不到\n所以如果民眾看完回到勞動部的裁罰系統裡面因為他也不知道發生日期跟發生地點所以他也不知道到底是不是同一個案件我這邊提醒勞工部一件事情就是你們的現在甚至我們看到你們的這個系統甚至喔直接貼上來直接把職災的受害者的姓名直接公布出來喔然後公布一年多都沒有拿掉喔\n所以部長這個系統我們發現是該公佈的沒公佈不該公佈的卻把它公佈在上面一年多沒有拿下來反而不該被揭露的受害者不能被放在上面所以部長你覺得這個系統需不需要改善\n議員,這個要改善。這樣的一個系統這樣的揭露我覺得很不OK。所以我所理解的是他們目前\n在明年1月1日馬上會上線的就是我們一個勞動部違反勞動法律世界單位財運系統有關職安位的部分會增加有發生日期發生地的這個欄位那大概這個部分應該就是到時候就是說我們有這個職災的我們也檢查還有那個\n處分的部分都會在這邊揭露。部長你知不知道其實你們開了一個研商會議這個研商會議公佈的範圍限縮在職安法第37條第三項也就是勞動部已經有去檢查和處分的案件裡只有勞工死亡跟重傷才要公佈發生日期跟發生地點我不知道你知不知道這件事情他把他限縮了所以我的意思是什麼更簡單跟大家說像是我們現在已經發生的\n已經去勞檢裁罰的終結的這個事件還有這次林口吊車斷裂事故的事件按照現在的職安法第37條第三項裡面對不起按照你們召開的研商會議的記錄都是不用公開的喔因為裡面沒有勞工死亡對不起死亡的是終結事件死亡的是陳克林蘇亞老師不是勞工死亡\n所以按照你們現在研商會議的內容像終結事件像是剛才說的這個林口吊車斷裂事件都是不用公開的喔徐副長我們說既然說要公開為什麼不把就把事情給做到位如果大家上去查發現欸\n明明這麼嚴重的終結的事件結果在上面居然沒有記錄不用公開民眾的感受是什麼?部長你知不知道現在我們的要公佈的範圍被嚴重限縮只有勞工死亡才要所以終結事故是不用公開的這個齁我是覺得治安署你們再要再整個再檢討一下啦我覺得\n這件事情我覺得委員關心好幾次我覺得我們要做就把它做好該揭露的就揭露了\n我想說這件事情其實環境部還在環保署的時候還是署的時候其實都已經做到了啦在他們的系統裡面其實採儲的日期採儲的公司名稱違反的日期其實都一清二楚我甚至曾經都建議過勞動部你甚至都可以把假如他有改善你也可以把他放到網路上面去我也沒意見\n立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12條條文修正草案：立法院第13屆第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14\n這是把高風險的狀況給預警出來現在我認為現在治安署不乾不脆甚至自己先說為什麼環保署做得到的事情為什麼勞工部做不到?署長為什麼?\n我們執法法對有些項目是沒有授權揭露這邊我們想或許明年我們執法修法的時候把這個法規授權更有效的讓我們來做執行我想這是我們會先處理的那至於說委員這兩次這兩個月一直督導我們push我們我們非常感謝因為揭露資訊讓民眾來的空間都是我們也是認為是非常核心的重點\n那至於說是全部都揭露我們有一些法規的部分的我個人覺得還是要有法規所以比較得當了署長我對你這個說法我要挑戰這是你們做的行政處分欸你們做的行政處分有什麼好不能揭露的你們是偷偷摸摸嗎你們自己去勞檢有處罰這是你們做的行政處分為什麼不能揭露只要把必要的各自的資訊給隱蔽起來\n這什麼地方不能揭露你告訴我這是你們行政處分我沒有要去公佈他們的商業機密啊你只要把個資隱蔽起來為什麼不能揭露你給我一個理由署長這跟法規授權對不起這是你們的行政處分欸你們去勞檢以後只是因為他沒有勞工死亡為什麼這樣就不能揭露\n我聽不懂我知道有法規授權更好但我完全聽不懂為什麼你們行政處分不能讓社會知道難道現在勞動部網站上面的所有公開的行政處分都是有法規都有一條一條授權才可以嗎我不知道為什麼行政處分不能夠讓社會大眾知道那個沒關係我請治安署這邊齁把這件事情\n兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第\n報告委員責任法是102年修的不是我說當時我們在討論相關的事情的時候我們都會說我們不要寫太細我現在意思是說市長事實是可以揭露的事情沒有不行只是你要做或不做我覺得不用拿法規來搪塞有法規當然更好\n但我認為社會大眾沒辦法接受像終結這麼離譜的事情居然在上面完全看不到像剛才說林口的這個吊車吊幣的事情大家看不到我覺得這大家沒辦法接受的事情是不是可以部長\n第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一\n你讓大家知道這個僱主或者是這個老闆他有做的努力我也不反對但現在不是啊我覺得現在是這個像擠牙膏一樣一點一點一點可是整個看起來就達不到預警機制的這個效果啊部長你覺得多久時間我們可以把這事情給做好金額的部分確實要請保護師來幫忙不是講一個時間嘛\n兩月我們要處理好了。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:22.230 --> 00:45.887\n新徐部長劉晴部長同委你好部長我今天還是想要來跟勞工部討論關於公安的問題喔嗯哼部長你覺得我們台灣的公安目前的預警預防做的怎麼樣還要再加油還要再加油啦\n\n00:46.357 --> 00:48.658\n第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案。\n\n01:10.700 --> 01:37.567\n這一起是11月底的時候發生在林口的公安意外這個意外的事件跟臺中終結的事件很像都是吊車斷裂掉落砸在公車亭但在這個事件還好人跑得快沒有被砸傷不想這些發生在工作場所或者是生活周遭公安的事故其實現在擔心的不只是勞工囉\n\n01:39.271 --> 02:02.426\n連附近的居民都很擔心,部長你可以體會跟了解嗎?是。部長所以如果你知道如果住家附近的工地發生事故有鷹架或者是這些其中的吊壁工人掉下來你走在附近你會不會有點擔心?會。會嗎?會。會齁,好。大家都很擔心啊可是現在看到這麼多的新聞齁\n\n02:04.065 --> 02:32.816\n我的辦公室其實也會接到民眾的電話大家會來詢問這些發生在附近的案件到底政府有沒有去檢查檢查完以後有沒有改善有沒有去罰其實大家都要問這個問題所以現在民眾很擔心這沒有督導那也很擔心這些災難會發生在自己的身上更擔心會不會就像臺中的林淑雅老師的這個事件\n\n02:34.451 --> 02:46.499\n不然這些悲劇你會不會想預防當然如果可以建立預警機制的話會不會想建立當然要建立不然我相信你的回答是這樣\n\n02:49.985 --> 03:05.266\n現在台灣的建築工地這麼多勞工不可能也不一定有量能一一的去勞檢所以我自己覺得這裡面一個很關鍵的事情是要怎麼把高風險的名單給建立起來甚至對外揭露可能很重要部長同意嗎同意\n\n03:07.160 --> 03:35.289\n在去年的四月我其實曾經開了一場記者會這場記者會的主題叫做沒有死傷的公安事故沒人管在這場記者會上面我其實要求勞動部應該彙整並公開公安事故的紀錄還有後續勞檢的紀錄那在今年五月的時候我其實也質詢過勞動部那當時勞動部的李俊逸次長那也承諾會建立一個公開查詢的系統\n\n03:36.553 --> 03:39.514\n其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一\n\n03:55.458 --> 04:10.985\n立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第\n\n04:21.260 --> 04:43.398\n沒有死傷但發生這些事情也是高風險的地方啊沒死傷可能只是這次運氣好啊就像剛才在公車停可能只是下面的人跑得快啊但部長後來勞動部做了什麼我在做這個要求後部長知不知道勞動部後來做了什麼部長知不知道我們有開會部長後來治安署創了一個叫做媒體報導重大災害訊息\n\n04:50.784 --> 05:08.616\n將媒體有報導的才放上來但請部長看一下這些內容其實我們都不會知道事故發生的地點在哪裡也不知道是哪個廠商後續到底發了什麼或者有沒有改善什麼在這一個媒體重大災害訊息裡面我們都看不到我們都看不到\n\n05:11.690 --> 05:38.501\n所以如果民眾看完回到勞動部的裁罰系統裡面因為他也不知道發生日期跟發生地點所以他也不知道到底是不是同一個案件我這邊提醒勞工部一件事情就是你們的現在甚至我們看到你們的這個系統甚至喔直接貼上來直接把職災的受害者的姓名直接公布出來喔然後公布一年多都沒有拿掉喔\n\n05:39.611 --> 05:58.525\n所以部長這個系統我們發現是該公佈的沒公佈不該公佈的卻把它公佈在上面一年多沒有拿下來反而不該被揭露的受害者不能被放在上面所以部長你覺得這個系統需不需要改善\n\n06:00.207 --> 06:11.614\n議員,這個要改善。這樣的一個系統這樣的揭露我覺得很不OK。所以我所理解的是他們目前\n\n06:12.967 --> 06:38.473\n在明年1月1日馬上會上線的就是我們一個勞動部違反勞動法律世界單位財運系統有關職安位的部分會增加有發生日期發生地的這個欄位那大概這個部分應該就是到時候就是說我們有這個職災的我們也檢查還有那個\n\n06:43.315 --> 07:10.727\n處分的部分都會在這邊揭露。部長你知不知道其實你們開了一個研商會議這個研商會議公佈的範圍限縮在職安法第37條第三項也就是勞動部已經有去檢查和處分的案件裡只有勞工死亡跟重傷才要公佈發生日期跟發生地點我不知道你知不知道這件事情他把他限縮了所以我的意思是什麼更簡單跟大家說像是我們現在已經發生的\n\n07:12.435 --> 07:39.955\n已經去勞檢裁罰的終結的這個事件還有這次林口吊車斷裂事故的事件按照現在的職安法第37條第三項裡面對不起按照你們召開的研商會議的記錄都是不用公開的喔因為裡面沒有勞工死亡對不起死亡的是終結事件死亡的是陳克林蘇亞老師不是勞工死亡\n\n07:41.934 --> 08:04.233\n所以按照你們現在研商會議的內容像終結事件像是剛才說的這個林口吊車斷裂事件都是不用公開的喔徐副長我們說既然說要公開為什麼不把就把事情給做到位如果大家上去查發現欸\n\n08:07.591 --> 08:32.527\n明明這麼嚴重的終結的事件結果在上面居然沒有記錄不用公開民眾的感受是什麼?部長你知不知道現在我們的要公佈的範圍被嚴重限縮只有勞工死亡才要所以終結事故是不用公開的這個齁我是覺得治安署你們再要再整個再檢討一下啦我覺得\n\n08:33.294 --> 08:40.860\n這件事情我覺得委員關心好幾次我覺得我們要做就把它做好該揭露的就揭露了\n\n08:44.441 --> 09:11.627\n我想說這件事情其實環境部還在環保署的時候還是署的時候其實都已經做到了啦在他們的系統裡面其實採儲的日期採儲的公司名稱違反的日期其實都一清二楚我甚至曾經都建議過勞動部你甚至都可以把假如他有改善你也可以把他放到網路上面去我也沒意見\n\n09:13.713 --> 09:30.527\n立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12條條文修正草案：立法院第13屆第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14\n\n09:33.169 --> 09:44.288\n這是把高風險的狀況給預警出來現在我認為現在治安署不乾不脆甚至自己先說為什麼環保署做得到的事情為什麼勞工部做不到?署長為什麼?\n\n09:49.123 --> 10:11.528\n我們執法法對有些項目是沒有授權揭露這邊我們想或許明年我們執法修法的時候把這個法規授權更有效的讓我們來做執行我想這是我們會先處理的那至於說委員這兩次這兩個月一直督導我們push我們我們非常感謝因為揭露資訊讓民眾來的空間都是我們也是認為是非常核心的重點\n\n10:12.188 --> 10:38.760\n那至於說是全部都揭露我們有一些法規的部分的我個人覺得還是要有法規所以比較得當了署長我對你這個說法我要挑戰這是你們做的行政處分欸你們做的行政處分有什麼好不能揭露的你們是偷偷摸摸嗎你們自己去勞檢有處罰這是你們做的行政處分為什麼不能揭露只要把必要的各自的資訊給隱蔽起來\n\n10:42.753 --> 10:53.001\n這什麼地方不能揭露你告訴我這是你們行政處分我沒有要去公佈他們的商業機密啊你只要把個資隱蔽起來為什麼不能揭露你給我一個理由署長這跟法規授權對不起這是你們的行政處分欸你們去勞檢以後只是因為他沒有勞工死亡為什麼這樣就不能揭露\n\n11:12.574 --> 11:33.308\n我聽不懂我知道有法規授權更好但我完全聽不懂為什麼你們行政處分不能讓社會知道難道現在勞動部網站上面的所有公開的行政處分都是有法規都有一條一條授權才可以嗎我不知道為什麼行政處分不能夠讓社會大眾知道那個沒關係我請治安署這邊齁把這件事情\n\n11:41.718 --> 12:01.431\n兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第\n\n12:09.994 --> 12:28.803\n報告委員責任法是102年修的不是我說當時我們在討論相關的事情的時候我們都會說我們不要寫太細我現在意思是說市長事實是可以揭露的事情沒有不行只是你要做或不做我覺得不用拿法規來搪塞有法規當然更好\n\n12:30.834 --> 12:41.926\n但我認為社會大眾沒辦法接受像終結這麼離譜的事情居然在上面完全看不到像剛才說林口的這個吊車吊幣的事情大家看不到我覺得這大家沒辦法接受的事情是不是可以部長\n\n12:45.395 --> 12:48.417\n第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一\n\n13:16.797 --> 13:40.537\n你讓大家知道這個僱主或者是這個老闆他有做的努力我也不反對但現在不是啊我覺得現在是這個像擠牙膏一樣一點一點一點可是整個看起來就達不到預警機制的這個效果啊部長你覺得多久時間我們可以把這事情給做好金額的部分確實要請保護師來幫忙不是講一個時間嘛\n\n13:43.753 --> 13:44.434\n兩月我們要處理好了。\n\n","segments":[{"start":22.23,"end":45.887,"text":"新徐部長劉晴部長同委你好部長我今天還是想要來跟勞工部討論關於公安的問題喔嗯哼部長你覺得我們台灣的公安目前的預警預防做的怎麼樣還要再加油還要再加油啦"},{"start":46.357,"end":48.658,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":70.7,"end":97.567,"text":"這一起是11月底的時候發生在林口的公安意外這個意外的事件跟臺中終結的事件很像都是吊車斷裂掉落砸在公車亭但在這個事件還好人跑得快沒有被砸傷不想這些發生在工作場所或者是生活周遭公安的事故其實現在擔心的不只是勞工囉"},{"start":99.271,"end":122.426,"text":"連附近的居民都很擔心,部長你可以體會跟了解嗎?是。部長所以如果你知道如果住家附近的工地發生事故有鷹架或者是這些其中的吊壁工人掉下來你走在附近你會不會有點擔心?會。會嗎?會。會齁,好。大家都很擔心啊可是現在看到這麼多的新聞齁"},{"start":124.065,"end":152.816,"text":"我的辦公室其實也會接到民眾的電話大家會來詢問這些發生在附近的案件到底政府有沒有去檢查檢查完以後有沒有改善有沒有去罰其實大家都要問這個問題所以現在民眾很擔心這沒有督導那也很擔心這些災難會發生在自己的身上更擔心會不會就像臺中的林淑雅老師的這個事件"},{"start":154.451,"end":166.499,"text":"不然這些悲劇你會不會想預防當然如果可以建立預警機制的話會不會想建立當然要建立不然我相信你的回答是這樣"},{"start":169.985,"end":185.266,"text":"現在台灣的建築工地這麼多勞工不可能也不一定有量能一一的去勞檢所以我自己覺得這裡面一個很關鍵的事情是要怎麼把高風險的名單給建立起來甚至對外揭露可能很重要部長同意嗎同意"},{"start":187.16,"end":215.289,"text":"在去年的四月我其實曾經開了一場記者會這場記者會的主題叫做沒有死傷的公安事故沒人管在這場記者會上面我其實要求勞動部應該彙整並公開公安事故的紀錄還有後續勞檢的紀錄那在今年五月的時候我其實也質詢過勞動部那當時勞動部的李俊逸次長那也承諾會建立一個公開查詢的系統"},{"start":216.553,"end":219.514,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":235.458,"end":250.985,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第"},{"start":261.26,"end":283.398,"text":"沒有死傷但發生這些事情也是高風險的地方啊沒死傷可能只是這次運氣好啊就像剛才在公車停可能只是下面的人跑得快啊但部長後來勞動部做了什麼我在做這個要求後部長知不知道勞動部後來做了什麼部長知不知道我們有開會部長後來治安署創了一個叫做媒體報導重大災害訊息"},{"start":290.784,"end":308.616,"text":"將媒體有報導的才放上來但請部長看一下這些內容其實我們都不會知道事故發生的地點在哪裡也不知道是哪個廠商後續到底發了什麼或者有沒有改善什麼在這一個媒體重大災害訊息裡面我們都看不到我們都看不到"},{"start":311.69,"end":338.501,"text":"所以如果民眾看完回到勞動部的裁罰系統裡面因為他也不知道發生日期跟發生地點所以他也不知道到底是不是同一個案件我這邊提醒勞工部一件事情就是你們的現在甚至我們看到你們的這個系統甚至喔直接貼上來直接把職災的受害者的姓名直接公布出來喔然後公布一年多都沒有拿掉喔"},{"start":339.611,"end":358.525,"text":"所以部長這個系統我們發現是該公佈的沒公佈不該公佈的卻把它公佈在上面一年多沒有拿下來反而不該被揭露的受害者不能被放在上面所以部長你覺得這個系統需不需要改善"},{"start":360.207,"end":371.614,"text":"議員,這個要改善。這樣的一個系統這樣的揭露我覺得很不OK。所以我所理解的是他們目前"},{"start":372.967,"end":398.473,"text":"在明年1月1日馬上會上線的就是我們一個勞動部違反勞動法律世界單位財運系統有關職安位的部分會增加有發生日期發生地的這個欄位那大概這個部分應該就是到時候就是說我們有這個職災的我們也檢查還有那個"},{"start":403.315,"end":430.727,"text":"處分的部分都會在這邊揭露。部長你知不知道其實你們開了一個研商會議這個研商會議公佈的範圍限縮在職安法第37條第三項也就是勞動部已經有去檢查和處分的案件裡只有勞工死亡跟重傷才要公佈發生日期跟發生地點我不知道你知不知道這件事情他把他限縮了所以我的意思是什麼更簡單跟大家說像是我們現在已經發生的"},{"start":432.435,"end":459.955,"text":"已經去勞檢裁罰的終結的這個事件還有這次林口吊車斷裂事故的事件按照現在的職安法第37條第三項裡面對不起按照你們召開的研商會議的記錄都是不用公開的喔因為裡面沒有勞工死亡對不起死亡的是終結事件死亡的是陳克林蘇亞老師不是勞工死亡"},{"start":461.934,"end":484.233,"text":"所以按照你們現在研商會議的內容像終結事件像是剛才說的這個林口吊車斷裂事件都是不用公開的喔徐副長我們說既然說要公開為什麼不把就把事情給做到位如果大家上去查發現欸"},{"start":487.591,"end":512.527,"text":"明明這麼嚴重的終結的事件結果在上面居然沒有記錄不用公開民眾的感受是什麼?部長你知不知道現在我們的要公佈的範圍被嚴重限縮只有勞工死亡才要所以終結事故是不用公開的這個齁我是覺得治安署你們再要再整個再檢討一下啦我覺得"},{"start":513.294,"end":520.86,"text":"這件事情我覺得委員關心好幾次我覺得我們要做就把它做好該揭露的就揭露了"},{"start":524.441,"end":551.627,"text":"我想說這件事情其實環境部還在環保署的時候還是署的時候其實都已經做到了啦在他們的系統裡面其實採儲的日期採儲的公司名稱違反的日期其實都一清二楚我甚至曾經都建議過勞動部你甚至都可以把假如他有改善你也可以把他放到網路上面去我也沒意見"},{"start":553.713,"end":570.527,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12條條文修正草案：立法院第13屆第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14"},{"start":573.169,"end":584.288,"text":"這是把高風險的狀況給預警出來現在我認為現在治安署不乾不脆甚至自己先說為什麼環保署做得到的事情為什麼勞工部做不到?署長為什麼?"},{"start":589.123,"end":611.528,"text":"我們執法法對有些項目是沒有授權揭露這邊我們想或許明年我們執法修法的時候把這個法規授權更有效的讓我們來做執行我想這是我們會先處理的那至於說委員這兩次這兩個月一直督導我們push我們我們非常感謝因為揭露資訊讓民眾來的空間都是我們也是認為是非常核心的重點"},{"start":612.188,"end":638.76,"text":"那至於說是全部都揭露我們有一些法規的部分的我個人覺得還是要有法規所以比較得當了署長我對你這個說法我要挑戰這是你們做的行政處分欸你們做的行政處分有什麼好不能揭露的你們是偷偷摸摸嗎你們自己去勞檢有處罰這是你們做的行政處分為什麼不能揭露只要把必要的各自的資訊給隱蔽起來"},{"start":642.753,"end":653.001,"text":"這什麼地方不能揭露你告訴我這是你們行政處分我沒有要去公佈他們的商業機密啊你只要把個資隱蔽起來為什麼不能揭露你給我一個理由署長這跟法規授權對不起這是你們的行政處分欸你們去勞檢以後只是因為他沒有勞工死亡為什麼這樣就不能揭露"},{"start":672.574,"end":693.308,"text":"我聽不懂我知道有法規授權更好但我完全聽不懂為什麼你們行政處分不能讓社會知道難道現在勞動部網站上面的所有公開的行政處分都是有法規都有一條一條授權才可以嗎我不知道為什麼行政處分不能夠讓社會大眾知道那個沒關係我請治安署這邊齁把這件事情"},{"start":701.718,"end":721.431,"text":"兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第"},{"start":729.994,"end":748.803,"text":"報告委員責任法是102年修的不是我說當時我們在討論相關的事情的時候我們都會說我們不要寫太細我現在意思是說市長事實是可以揭露的事情沒有不行只是你要做或不做我覺得不用拿法規來搪塞有法規當然更好"},{"start":750.834,"end":761.926,"text":"但我認為社會大眾沒辦法接受像終結這麼離譜的事情居然在上面完全看不到像剛才說林口的這個吊車吊幣的事情大家看不到我覺得這大家沒辦法接受的事情是不是可以部長"},{"start":765.395,"end":768.417,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":796.797,"end":820.537,"text":"你讓大家知道這個僱主或者是這個老闆他有做的努力我也不反對但現在不是啊我覺得現在是這個像擠牙膏一樣一點一點一點可是整個看起來就達不到預警機制的這個效果啊部長你覺得多久時間我們可以把這事情給做好金額的部分確實要請保護師來幫忙不是講一個時間嘛"},{"start":823.753,"end":824.434,"text":"兩月我們要處理好了。"}]}}}}