{"id":149022,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149022","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c35e64c62bff11918ca8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a032299b491e425fd1a755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:34:24 - 09:45:11","影片長度":"00:10:47","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-15"},"date":"2023-12-14","duration":647,"end_time":"2023-12-14T09:45:11+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-14T09:34:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":438,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時34分）謝謝主席，我們請薛部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["薛部長富盛：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長好。部長跟幾位委員有實地到COP28的現場去看過，確實帶回了很多第一手的資料，所以剛剛洪委員講的，我其實很想說，洪委員講的我們都贊成，我們直接簽連署，請部長直接照做。不過有一些細節的部分，確實還可以請部長再多說明一點，比如說，剛剛說到這個決議的部分，洪委員剛剛提到了，因為這樣的一個會議開下來，在不同的時間當中，也有各種不同的團體、不同的國家集結成不同意見的發送，但是我們必須說，COP 28的結論應該只有一個吧！應該只有一個。我這樣問好了，部長，這次的會議到底有沒有結論？"],["薛部長富盛：有，事實上，他們有……"],["蘇委員巧慧：有結論嘛！所以結論是在什麼時候發出？昨天嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：昨天下午最後一個……"],["蘇委員巧慧：不用啦！部長，這個問題很簡單，有沒有結論？有嘛！這個結論是什麼時候發出的？"],["薛部長富盛：昨天下午。"],["蘇委員巧慧：昨天嘛！所以昨天以前的都不叫大會結論，對吧？"],["薛部長富盛：那個都是倡議而已。"],["蘇委員巧慧：都是倡議而已嘛！所以大會結論是在昨天才發出的嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["蘇委員巧慧：而且就是現在我的投影片列出來的，也是你剛剛報告的，昨天發出的這個才是這一次、本屆、今年COP 28的結論，可以這樣說嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是，可以。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長，我想請問你，也請你簡短的回答，你剛剛在回答洪委員的時候，我們有提到國內有人直接在12月5日的時候就已經把某一次的倡議變成COP 28會議的結論，然後大肆宣揚，這中間其實在講的就是對核能的態度。我們回到前一頁，部長，我想請你在備詢臺上面再次的說明，在COP 28裡面對於核能的態度到底是什麼？它的比重還有談論到的狀況是如何？請你簡單說明一下。"],["薛部長富盛：是的，事實上，我在看到國內這個報導之後，我馬上接受媒體的聯訪，我表達得非常清楚，現階段核能對臺灣而言是假議題。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長，我想先請問你的是，COP 28的結論當中提到核能的比重有多少，並且它是把核能列為一個什麼樣的狀況？"],["薛部長富盛：在倡議裡面是希望2050年……"],["蘇委員巧慧：那是倡議，我現在問的是結論。"],["薛部長富盛：結論沒有啊！"],["蘇委員巧慧：結論有啦！結論還是有啦！在結論當中，它是在加快零排放和低排放技術的發展這一項當中，確實有把核能放進去。"],["薛部長富盛：就是（e）的這個部分，有把核能列進去。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我們就事論事嘛！它有把核能放進去，在加快零排放及低排放技術的發展這一項當中有列了進去，但是這就表示它把核能列為綠電嗎？其實也不盡然嘛！但是它確實表示這是可能降低碳排的技術之一，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以我們必須說，其實在整個COP 28的大會結論當中有提到核能，沒有錯，但是其實是把它列為應該要繼續發展的新技術之一。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：但是並不是前面所講的在22個國家提出的倡議當中說我們全世界就是應該要用三倍速的方向來發展核能，完全沒有這件事情嘛！對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：對，完全沒有。"],["蘇委員巧慧：完全沒有這件事情嘛！在結論跟倡議不一樣的狀況之下，在結論當中，我們甚至也沒有倡議這樣的內容，你以一個參與過這次會議的部長的身分，應該是可以在這裡向全國公開再次聲明吧！"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒有所謂在2050年要把核能三倍速的發展，完全沒有這個結論，但是核能在某些國家可以變成再生能源，甚至配合那些國家自己的環境去發展。"],["蘇委員巧慧：配合它的條件嘛！對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：對，每個國家的情況都不一樣。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，那麼現在就回來看，當COP 28有這樣的結論之後，又必須要適應每一個國家不同的條件，就是你現在所說的這樣嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長，你在之前的言論當中有說到，對臺灣來講，核能的發展是一個假議題，你可不可以在這裡再一次表示「核能的發展是假議題」這句話是什麼意思？其實你也有前提啊！"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你也有前提啊！我都還從報紙上幫你剪了這個報導。"],["薛部長富盛：是，必須在三個前提獲得確保之後，臺灣再去發展核電，我相信到那時候大家是可以接受的，那我們並不是說因為沒有把它列入我們未來發展的方向就忽略掉核能，事實上，我們很多學術研究單位持續關注核能的研發技術。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以是哪三個條件？"],["薛部長富盛：第一個是確保核能的安全，第二個是核廢料獲得妥善的處理，第三個是有全民共識，我想這三個應該大家是可以接受的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：在這三個當中最難的其實就是你這次說的核廢未解決，所以談核電是假議題嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：為什麼會這樣講的原因是，因為現在在發展核電的國家當中，我們必須說，其實他們都是屬於有能力或者有現況可以處理核廢料的國家。"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["蘇委員巧慧：在這些國家當中，其實很大一個條件，大部分就是地廣人稀，它有一個空間可以去處理核廢，偏偏臺灣的狀況就是地狹人稠，恰恰相反，所以從過去到現在來講，甚至不管是哪一個政黨執政，沒有一個中央政府……"],["薛部長富盛：沒有一個縣市願意去……"],["蘇委員巧慧：現在還沒有辦法處理最終處置場的問題啊！"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以在沒有辦法處理核廢之前，其實你核電技術再怎麼發展，除非你有辦法發展到我們做核電都完全沒有核廢料，或讓這個核廢料是所有人都認為它是安全的，科學檢測它也是安全的，我現在說的是核廢料，還不是核能發電而已，在這樣的狀況下才有空間，臺灣才有可能進行到共識的這個部分，對不對？所以部長，我們今天在這裡要把幾個層次分清楚，一個是世界對於核電的態度是什麼，另外一個是臺灣到底有沒有條件來使用核電，而臺灣使用核電的前提是我們到底有沒有辦法處理核廢料，所以這幾個層次其實部長你應該像念經一樣，不停地、不停地對全國來做一個宣達，也就是全國人民要認知到的是，我們在討論使用核電之前的前提是，到底我們臺灣有沒有能耐、有沒有縣市願意接受處理核廢料成為在你身邊的最終處置場，就是這樣子而已嘛！其他的技術都是另外的問題，所以在這樣的狀況下，部長，我再一次地說，其實資訊的傳達真的是非常重要，所以這一題如此。","另外一個題目，我覺得可能會變成新的狀況是，您剛剛在在的說，氣候損失與損害基金是這一次COP28的重要結論之一，臺灣也表示我們願意參與，甚至是先行參與這個基金的建置，以至於我們未來可以參與更多的組織面向，我想請你簡短地回答，請問我們是要用什麼樣的名義捐助、捐助多少、何時捐、預算來源、想要達到什麼樣的效果？這個部分你始終還沒有做過解釋，請你現在解釋。"],["薛部長富盛：我先講一個案例，就是剛剛我跟洪委員有提到，今年7月份外交部吳部長跟我們太平洋4個友邦國家，包括帛琉、諾魯、馬紹爾以及另外一個國家成立一個Just Transition Fund，我們臺灣已經提供1,000萬美元去做那個基金，所以同樣我對媒體也講過，假如我們能夠實際參與COP的締約國大會，那臺灣願意履行會員的一個責任，我們來捐，當然這個經費要捐多少就必須要我們行政院或者甚至是更高層次……"],["蘇委員巧慧：因為我想大家都會更想要知道我們這個預算是從哪一個部門、哪一個項目出來，另外，這個預算能夠達到的效果是什麼，比如說，你剛剛說我們已經跟這4個國家有過這樣子的一個基金，變成一個團體，那麼請問一下，這次在大會當中，他們對我們的態度如何？"],["薛部長富盛：非常正面，他們在聯合國氣候大會裡面為我們發聲，覺得不應該遺漏任何一個國家或地區。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我們為什麼當時選擇這4個國家？"],["薛部長富盛：因為太平洋島國這個事實上是比較嚴重，我這次跟很多包括加勒比海我們的友邦，他們都紛紛跟我表達說希望他們能夠加入這個基金，所以事實上反應很正面，我昨天也跟院長、跟外交部……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是嘛！所以這是一個正向的發展，因為我們選擇這幾個國家是他們跟我們一樣，都是屬於海島型國家。"],["薛部長富盛：沒錯。"],["蘇委員巧慧：大家都是面對氣候變遷首當其衝的國家，而在這些條件的國家當中，臺灣是屬於比較有能力的國家，所以我們率先出來，這等於是Taiwan can help再一次的證明。在這樣的狀況之下，我們果然因此收穫了善意的循環，所以他們願意幫我們在大會發聲，我們當然期待這個可以繼續下去。我想部長，因為它確實是動用了國家的預算，所以其他的委員一定會繼續地追問你成效如何，我期待的是你能夠像剛剛使用核能的這一題，你念經也好，你就是一樣的東西一直講，一定要說到大家都能夠懂。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：大家都能夠耳熟能詳，大家就知道國家政策的方向是如此這般，你才有可能得到追隨者嘛！所以在這裡我是希望部長能夠把這個部分再講更清楚一點。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝。"],["蘇委員巧慧：繼續傳達，謝謝部長。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝蘇委員。"],["主席：謝謝蘇委員。有請吳玉琴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-15","speakers":["吳欣盈","洪申翰","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","林為洲","邱泰源","黃秀芳","陳椒華","徐志榮","張育美","陳瑩","王婉諭","賴惠員","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":393,"meetingDate":["2023-12-14"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委\n員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候\n變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130201_00006"}},"transcript":{"id":"149022","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149022","tool":"pyannote","id":"149022-pyannote"},"job_id":"RwWcNtouwDgIgZn8","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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{\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 561.826, \"end\": 561.846, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 563.866, \"end\": 578.356, \"text\": \"因為太平洋島國這個事實上是比較嚴重我這次跟很多包括加勒比海我們的友邦他們都紛紛跟我表達說希望他們能夠加入這個基金所以事實上環境很正面我昨天跟院長跟外交部\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 563.866, \"end\": 564.126, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"太\", \"start\": 564.126, \"end\": 564.326, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"平\", \"start\": 564.326, \"end\": 564.466, \"score\": 0.781}, {\"word\": \"洋\", \"start\": 564.466, \"end\": 565.487, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"島\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 565.487, \"end\": 565.647, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 565.647, \"end\": 565.827, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 565.827, \"end\": 565.987, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 565.987, \"end\": 566.468, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"嚴\"}, {\"word\": 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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:10,202\n好謝謝主席我們請薛部長有請部長好蘇委員好部長好那部長跟幾位委員有實地到這個COP28的現場去看過確實帶回了很多第一手的資料所以剛剛洪委員講的我其實很想說洪委員講的我們都贊成啦我們直接簽連署啦請部長直接照做\n\n2\n00:00:32,918 --> 00:00:57,792\n不過這個有一些細節的部分確實部長還可以請你再多做說明一點比如說剛剛說這個決議的部分洪委員剛剛提到了因為同樣的這樣的一個會議開下來在時間的不同當中也有各種不同的團體不同的國家集結成不同意見的發送但我們必須說COP28的結論應該只有一個吧\n\n3\n00:01:00,453 --> 00:01:00,834\n昨天下午最後一個\n\n4\n00:01:13,257 --> 00:01:37,703\n不用啦部長這個問題很簡單啦有沒有結論嘛有嘛什麼時候發出的這個結論昨天下午啊昨天嘛所以昨天以前的都不叫大會結論對吧不是那個都是倡議而已都是倡議而已嘛所以大會結論是在昨天才發出的嘛而且就是我們現在列出來這個也是你剛剛報告的現在我的投影片這個這個才是昨天這一次本屆今年COP28的結論可以這樣說嘛好那部長\n\n5\n00:01:41,104 --> 00:02:05,452\n部長我想請問一下請你用一點簡短的回答你剛剛在回答洪委員的時候我們有提到的是國內有人據說他直接在12月5號的時候就已經把這個某一次的倡議變成了28會議的結論然後大肆宣揚這中間其實在講的就是對核能的態度所以我們回到前夜好不好回到前夜\n\n6\n00:02:07,089 --> 00:02:27,004\n我想請你在這個備詢台上你再次的說明在COP28裡面對於核能的態度到底是什麼它的比重談論到的狀況是如何請你簡單說明一下是的我在事實上在看到國內這個報導之後我馬上接受媒體的聯訪\n\n7\n00:02:29,005 --> 00:02:47,402\n我表達得非常清楚現階段核能對臺灣而言是假議題部長我想先請問你的是COP28它的結論當中提到核能有多少並且它把核能列為一個什麼樣的狀況它是倡議裡面是希望2050年那是倡議我現在問的是結論結論沒有啊\n\n8\n00:02:52,767 --> 00:03:10,714\n結論有啦結論有啦結論還是有啦在結論當中他是在加快零排放和低排放技術發展的這一項當中在這個當中把核能確實有放進去我們就事論事嘛他把核能有放進去在這個\n\n9\n00:03:12,274 --> 00:03:31,645\n加快零排放及低排放技術的發展當中有列進去但這表示他就是把核能列為綠電嗎其實也不盡然嘛也不盡然但他確實表示這是一個可能降低碳排的技術之一對不對所以我們必須說其實在整個COP28的這個結論當中大會結論當中有提到核能沒有錯但\n\n10\n00:03:36,127 --> 00:03:53,261\n它是把它列為應該要繼續發展的新技術之一但不是前面所說的在22個國家裡面提出的倡議當中說哎呀我們全世界就是應該要用三倍數的方向來發展核能完全沒有這件事情嘛對不對\n\n11\n00:03:54,062 --> 00:04:09,180\n完全沒有這件事情嘛結論跟倡議是不一樣的狀況之下在結論我們甚至是也沒有倡議的這樣的內容這個應該是可以部長在這裡以一個參與過的以一個部長的身份在這裡向全國公開再次聲明吧\n\n12\n00:04:09,881 --> 00:04:25,448\n是沒有所謂在2050年要把核能三倍的這個結論完全沒有但是核能對某些國家它可以變成再生能源甚至它\n\n13\n00:04:26,208 --> 00:04:51,794\n配合他自己國家的環境配合他的條件嘛對不對對每個國家情況都不一樣那麼現在這樣就回來是當COP28有這樣的結論之後又必須要適應的是每一個國家不同的條件就是你現在這樣說的嘛好所以部長你在之前的言論當中你有說到對台灣來講核能的發展是一個假議題你可不可以在這裡再一次表示核能的發展是假議題這句話是什麼意思\n\n14\n00:04:52,794 --> 00:05:14,703\n其實你也有前提啊是你也有前提啊連報紙我都還幫你選必須在三個前提之下獲得確保之後台灣去發展核電我相信那時候大家是可以接受的那我們並不是說沒有把它列入我們的未來發展方向就不會去就忽略掉核能\n\n15\n00:05:15,183 --> 00:05:37,262\n事實上我們很多協助研究單位持續針對核能的研發所以是哪三個條件第一個確保核能的安全第二個核廢料獲得妥善的處理第三個有全民共識我想這三個應該那在這三個當中其實最難的其實就是你這次說的就核廢未解決所以談核電是假議題\n\n16\n00:05:38,423 --> 00:05:57,661\n為什麼會這樣講的原因是因為現在在發展核電的國家當中我們必須說其實他們都是屬於有能力或者有現況可以處理核廢料的部分的國家嘛那在這些國家當中其實很大一個條件大部分的就是地廣人稀他有一個空間可以去處理核廢那偏偏台灣的狀況就是地狹人叢恰恰相反\n\n17\n00:06:03,166 --> 00:06:23,897\n所以以從過去到現在來講甚至不管是哪一個政黨執政沒有一個中央政府現在還沒有辦法處理最終處置場的問題啊所以在沒有辦法處理核廢之前其實你核電技術再怎麼發展除非你有辦法發展到我們做核電都完全沒有核廢料\n\n18\n00:06:24,597 --> 00:06:45,900\n或讓這個核廢料是所有人都認為它是安全的科學檢測它也是安全的我現在說的是核廢料還不是核能發電而已喔在這樣的狀況下才有空間台灣才有可能進行到共識的這個部分嘛對不對所以部長我們今天在這裡要把幾個層次分清楚一個是世界對於核電的態度是什麼\n\n19\n00:06:46,440 --> 00:07:07,825\n另外一個是臺灣到底有沒有條件來使用核電而臺灣使用核電的前提是我們到底有沒有辦法處理核廢料所以這幾個層次其實部長你應該像念經一樣不停的不停的對全國來做一個宣達也就是全國人民要認知到的是我們在討論使用核電之前的前提是到底我們臺灣有沒有能耐\n\n20\n00:07:10,026 --> 00:07:21,957\n有沒有縣市願意接受處理核廢料成為在你身邊的最終處置場就是這樣子而已其他的技術都是另外的問題所以在這樣的狀況下部長我再次的說其實資訊的傳達真的是非常重要所以\n\n21\n00:07:28,342 --> 00:07:44,407\n這題如此那另外一個題目我覺得可能會變成新的狀況是你剛剛在在的說氣候損失與損害基金是這一次COP28的結論重要結論之一那臺灣也表示我們願意參與甚至是先行參與這個基金的這個建制\n\n22\n00:07:45,467 --> 00:08:09,739\n以致於我們未來可以參與更多的組織面向那我想請你簡短的回答請問我們是要用什麼樣的名義捐助捐助多少何時捐預算來源想要達到什麼樣的效果這個部分你始終還沒有做過解釋請你現在解釋我先講一個案例就是剛剛我跟洪委員有提到我們今年七月份外交部吳部長跟我們太平洋\n\n23\n00:08:10,479 --> 00:08:36,751\n四個有幫國家包括柏流、諾魯還有馬薩爾以及另外一個國家成立一個JustTransitionFund那我們台灣已經提供10million就是一千萬美元去做那個基金所以同樣我對媒體也講過假如我們能夠實際參與COP的第一國的大會\n\n24\n00:08:38,452 --> 00:08:57,421\n臺灣願意履行會員的一個責任我們來捐那當然這個經費要捐多少就必須要我們行政院或者甚至是更高的成績因為我想大家都會更想要知道說我們這個的預算是從哪一個部門哪一個項目來出來\n\n25\n00:08:58,041 --> 00:09:21,846\n那另外這個預算能夠達到的效果是什麼比如說你剛剛說我們已經跟這四個國家有過這樣子的一個基金變成一個團體那麼請問一下這一次在大會當中他們對我們的態度如何我非常正面他們在聯合國大會氣候大會裡面事實上為我們發聲覺得不應該遺漏任何一個國家或地區那我們為什麼當時選擇這四個國家\n\n26\n00:09:23,866 --> 00:09:38,356\n因為太平洋島國這個事實上是比較嚴重我這次跟很多包括加勒比海我們的友邦他們都紛紛跟我表達說希望他們能夠加入這個基金所以事實上環境很正面我昨天跟院長跟外交部\n\n27\n00:09:39,176 --> 00:09:59,433\n所以這是一個正向的發展因為我們選擇這幾個國家是他們跟我們一樣都屬於海島型國家大家都是會面對氣候變遷首當其衝的國家而在這一些條件的國家當中台灣是屬於比較有能力的國家所以我們率先出來這等於是台灣canhelp的再一次的證明嘛\n\n28\n00:09:59,873 --> 00:10:05,477\n那在這樣的狀況之下我們果然因此收獲了善意的循環所以他們願意幫我們在大會發聲那我們當然期待這個可以繼續下去我想部長因為他確實是動用了國家的預算所以其他的委員一定會繼續的追問你成效如何我期待的是你能夠像剛剛使用何能的這一題你念經也好啦你就是一樣的東西一直講\n\n29\n00:10:26,332 --> 00:10:41,605\n一定要說到大家都能夠懂大家都能夠耳熟能詳大家就知道國家政策的方向是如此這般那你才有可能得到追隨者嘛所以在這裡的話我是希望部長能夠把這個部分再講更清楚一點繼續傳達謝謝部長好謝謝蘇偉仁好謝謝謝謝蘇偉仁有請吳益勤委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7560\t10202\t好 謝謝主席 我們請薛部長有請部長好 蘇委員好部長好那部長跟幾位委員有實地到這個COP28的現場去看過確實帶回了很多第一手的資料所以剛剛洪委員講的我其實很想說洪委員講的我們都贊成啦我們直接簽連署啦請部長直接照做\n32918\t57792\t不過這個有一些細節的部分確實部長還可以請你再多做說明一點比如說剛剛說這個決議的部分洪委員剛剛提到了因為同樣的這樣的一個會議開下來在時間的不同當中也有各種不同的團體不同的國家集結成不同意見的發送但我們必須說COP28的結論應該只有一個吧\n60453\t60834\t昨天下午最後一個\n73257\t97703\t不用啦部長這個問題很簡單啦有沒有結論嘛有嘛什麼時候發出的這個結論昨天下午啊昨天嘛所以昨天以前的都不叫大會結論對吧不是那個都是倡議而已都是倡議而已嘛所以大會結論是在昨天才發出的嘛而且就是我們現在列出來這個也是你剛剛報告的現在我的投影片這個這個才是昨天這一次本屆今年COP28的結論可以這樣說嘛好那部長\n101104\t125452\t部長我想請問一下請你用一點簡短的回答你剛剛在回答洪委員的時候我們有提到的是國內有人據說他直接在12月5號的時候就已經把這個某一次的倡議變成了28會議的結論然後大肆宣揚這中間其實在講的就是對核能的態度所以我們回到前夜好不好回到前夜\n127089\t147004\t我想請你在這個備詢台上你再次的說明在COP28裡面對於核能的態度到底是什麼它的比重談論到的狀況是如何請你簡單說明一下是的我在事實上在看到國內這個報導之後我馬上接受媒體的聯訪\n149005\t167402\t我表達得非常清楚現階段核能對臺灣而言是假議題部長我想先請問你的是COP28它的結論當中提到核能有多少並且它把核能列為一個什麼樣的狀況它是倡議裡面是希望2050年那是倡議我現在問的是結論結論沒有啊\n172767\t190714\t結論有啦結論有啦結論還是有啦在結論當中他是在加快零排放和低排放技術發展的這一項當中在這個當中把核能確實有放進去我們就事論事嘛他把核能有放進去在這個\n192274\t211645\t加快零排放及低排放技術的發展當中有列進去但這表示他就是把核能列為綠電嗎其實也不盡然嘛也不盡然但他確實表示這是一個可能降低碳排的技術之一對不對所以我們必須說其實在整個COP28的這個結論當中大會結論當中有提到核能沒有錯但\n216127\t233261\t它是把它列為應該要繼續發展的新技術之一但不是前面所說的在22個國家裡面提出的倡議當中說哎呀我們全世界就是應該要用三倍數的方向來發展核能完全沒有這件事情嘛對不對\n234062\t249180\t完全沒有這件事情嘛結論跟倡議是不一樣的狀況之下在結論我們甚至是也沒有倡議的這樣的內容這個應該是可以部長在這裡以一個參與過的以一個部長的身份在這裡向全國公開再次聲明吧\n249881\t265448\t是沒有所謂在2050年要把核能三倍的這個結論完全沒有但是核能對某些國家它可以變成再生能源甚至它\n266208\t291794\t配合他自己國家的環境配合他的條件嘛對不對對每個國家情況都不一樣那麼現在這樣就回來是當COP28有這樣的結論之後又必須要適應的是每一個國家不同的條件就是你現在這樣說的嘛好所以部長你在之前的言論當中你有說到對台灣來講核能的發展是一個假議題你可不可以在這裡再一次表示核能的發展是假議題這句話是什麼意思\n292794\t314703\t其實你也有前提啊是你也有前提啊連報紙我都還幫你選必須在三個前提之下獲得確保之後台灣去發展核電我相信那時候大家是可以接受的那我們並不是說沒有把它列入我們的未來發展方向就不會去就忽略掉核能\n315183\t337262\t事實上我們很多協助研究單位持續針對核能的研發所以是哪三個條件第一個確保核能的安全第二個核廢料獲得妥善的處理第三個有全民共識我想這三個應該那在這三個當中其實最難的其實就是你這次說的就核廢未解決所以談核電是假議題\n338423\t357661\t為什麼會這樣講的原因是因為現在在發展核電的國家當中我們必須說其實他們都是屬於有能力或者有現況可以處理核廢料的部分的國家嘛那在這些國家當中其實很大一個條件大部分的就是地廣人稀他有一個空間可以去處理核廢那偏偏台灣的狀況就是地狹人叢恰恰相反\n363166\t383897\t所以以從過去到現在來講甚至不管是哪一個政黨執政沒有一個中央政府現在還沒有辦法處理最終處置場的問題啊所以在沒有辦法處理核廢之前其實你核電技術再怎麼發展除非你有辦法發展到我們做核電都完全沒有核廢料\n384597\t405900\t或讓這個核廢料是所有人都認為它是安全的科學檢測它也是安全的我現在說的是核廢料還不是核能發電而已喔在這樣的狀況下才有空間台灣才有可能進行到共識的這個部分嘛 對不對所以部長我們今天在這裡要把幾個層次分清楚一個是世界對於核電的態度是什麼\n406440\t427825\t另外一個是臺灣到底有沒有條件來使用核電而臺灣使用核電的前提是我們到底有沒有辦法處理核廢料所以這幾個層次其實部長你應該像念經一樣不停的不停的對全國來做一個宣達也就是全國人民要認知到的是我們在討論使用核電之前的前提是到底我們臺灣有沒有能耐\n430026\t441957\t有沒有縣市願意接受處理核廢料成為在你身邊的最終處置場就是這樣子而已其他的技術都是另外的問題所以在這樣的狀況下部長我再次的說其實資訊的傳達真的是非常重要所以\n448342\t464407\t這題如此那另外一個題目我覺得可能會變成新的狀況是你剛剛在在的說氣候損失與損害基金是這一次COP28的結論重要結論之一那臺灣也表示我們願意參與甚至是先行參與這個基金的這個建制\n465467\t489739\t以致於我們未來可以參與更多的組織面向那我想請你簡短的回答請問我們是要用什麼樣的名義捐助捐助多少何時捐預算來源想要達到什麼樣的效果這個部分你始終還沒有做過解釋請你現在解釋我先講一個案例就是剛剛我跟洪委員有提到我們今年七月份外交部吳部長跟我們太平洋\n490479\t516751\t四個有幫國家包括柏流、諾魯還有馬薩爾以及另外一個國家成立一個Just Transition Fund那我們台灣已經提供10 million就是一千萬美元去做那個基金所以同樣我對媒體也講過假如我們能夠實際參與COP的第一國的大會\n518452\t537421\t臺灣願意履行會員的一個責任我們來捐那當然這個經費要捐多少就必須要我們行政院或者甚至是更高的成績因為我想大家都會更想要知道說我們這個的預算是從哪一個部門哪一個項目來出來\n538041\t561846\t那另外這個預算能夠達到的效果是什麼比如說你剛剛說我們已經跟這四個國家有過這樣子的一個基金變成一個團體那麼請問一下這一次在大會當中他們對我們的態度如何我非常正面他們在聯合國大會氣候大會裡面事實上為我們發聲覺得不應該遺漏任何一個國家或地區那我們為什麼當時選擇這四個國家\n563866\t578356\t因為太平洋島國這個事實上是比較嚴重我這次跟很多包括加勒比海我們的友邦他們都紛紛跟我表達說希望他們能夠加入這個基金所以事實上環境很正面我昨天跟院長跟外交部\n579176\t599433\t所以這是一個正向的發展因為我們選擇這幾個國家是他們跟我們一樣都屬於海島型國家大家都是會面對氣候變遷首當其衝的國家而在這一些條件的國家當中台灣是屬於比較有能力的國家所以我們率先出來這等於是台灣can help的再一次的證明嘛\n599873\t605477\t那在這樣的狀況之下我們果然因此收獲了善意的循環所以他們願意幫我們在大會發聲那我們當然期待這個可以繼續下去我想部長因為他確實是動用了國家的預算所以其他的委員一定會繼續的追問你成效如何我期待的是你能夠像剛剛使用何能的這一題你念經也好啦你就是一樣的東西一直講\n626332\t641605\t一定要說到大家都能夠懂大家都能夠耳熟能詳大家就知道國家政策的方向是如此這般那你才有可能得到追隨者嘛所以在這裡的話我是希望部長能夠把這個部分再講更清楚一點繼續傳達 謝謝部長好 謝謝蘇偉仁好 謝謝謝謝蘇偉仁 有請吳益勤委員\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 我們請薛部長有請部長好 蘇委員好部長好那部長跟幾位委員有實地到這個COP28的現場去看過確實帶回了很多第一手的資料所以剛剛洪委員講的我其實很想說洪委員講的我們都贊成啦我們直接簽連署啦請部長直接照做\n不過這個有一些細節的部分確實部長還可以請你再多做說明一點比如說剛剛說這個決議的部分洪委員剛剛提到了因為同樣的這樣的一個會議開下來在時間的不同當中也有各種不同的團體不同的國家集結成不同意見的發送但我們必須說COP28的結論應該只有一個吧\n昨天下午最後一個\n不用啦部長這個問題很簡單啦有沒有結論嘛有嘛什麼時候發出的這個結論昨天下午啊昨天嘛所以昨天以前的都不叫大會結論對吧不是那個都是倡議而已都是倡議而已嘛所以大會結論是在昨天才發出的嘛而且就是我們現在列出來這個也是你剛剛報告的現在我的投影片這個這個才是昨天這一次本屆今年COP28的結論可以這樣說嘛好那部長\n部長我想請問一下請你用一點簡短的回答你剛剛在回答洪委員的時候我們有提到的是國內有人據說他直接在12月5號的時候就已經把這個某一次的倡議變成了28會議的結論然後大肆宣揚這中間其實在講的就是對核能的態度所以我們回到前夜好不好回到前夜\n我想請你在這個備詢台上你再次的說明在COP28裡面對於核能的態度到底是什麼它的比重談論到的狀況是如何請你簡單說明一下是的我在事實上在看到國內這個報導之後我馬上接受媒體的聯訪\n我表達得非常清楚現階段核能對臺灣而言是假議題部長我想先請問你的是COP28它的結論當中提到核能有多少並且它把核能列為一個什麼樣的狀況它是倡議裡面是希望2050年那是倡議我現在問的是結論結論沒有啊\n結論有啦結論有啦結論還是有啦在結論當中他是在加快零排放和低排放技術發展的這一項當中在這個當中把核能確實有放進去我們就事論事嘛他把核能有放進去在這個\n加快零排放及低排放技術的發展當中有列進去但這表示他就是把核能列為綠電嗎其實也不盡然嘛也不盡然但他確實表示這是一個可能降低碳排的技術之一對不對所以我們必須說其實在整個COP28的這個結論當中大會結論當中有提到核能沒有錯但\n它是把它列為應該要繼續發展的新技術之一但不是前面所說的在22個國家裡面提出的倡議當中說哎呀我們全世界就是應該要用三倍數的方向來發展核能完全沒有這件事情嘛對不對\n完全沒有這件事情嘛結論跟倡議是不一樣的狀況之下在結論我們甚至是也沒有倡議的這樣的內容這個應該是可以部長在這裡以一個參與過的以一個部長的身份在這裡向全國公開再次聲明吧\n是沒有所謂在2050年要把核能三倍的這個結論完全沒有但是核能對某些國家它可以變成再生能源甚至它\n配合他自己國家的環境配合他的條件嘛對不對對每個國家情況都不一樣那麼現在這樣就回來是當COP28有這樣的結論之後又必須要適應的是每一個國家不同的條件就是你現在這樣說的嘛好所以部長你在之前的言論當中你有說到對台灣來講核能的發展是一個假議題你可不可以在這裡再一次表示核能的發展是假議題這句話是什麼意思\n其實你也有前提啊是你也有前提啊連報紙我都還幫你選必須在三個前提之下獲得確保之後台灣去發展核電我相信那時候大家是可以接受的那我們並不是說沒有把它列入我們的未來發展方向就不會去就忽略掉核能\n事實上我們很多協助研究單位持續針對核能的研發所以是哪三個條件第一個確保核能的安全第二個核廢料獲得妥善的處理第三個有全民共識我想這三個應該那在這三個當中其實最難的其實就是你這次說的就核廢未解決所以談核電是假議題\n為什麼會這樣講的原因是因為現在在發展核電的國家當中我們必須說其實他們都是屬於有能力或者有現況可以處理核廢料的部分的國家嘛那在這些國家當中其實很大一個條件大部分的就是地廣人稀他有一個空間可以去處理核廢那偏偏台灣的狀況就是地狹人叢恰恰相反\n所以以從過去到現在來講甚至不管是哪一個政黨執政沒有一個中央政府現在還沒有辦法處理最終處置場的問題啊所以在沒有辦法處理核廢之前其實你核電技術再怎麼發展除非你有辦法發展到我們做核電都完全沒有核廢料\n或讓這個核廢料是所有人都認為它是安全的科學檢測它也是安全的我現在說的是核廢料還不是核能發電而已喔在這樣的狀況下才有空間台灣才有可能進行到共識的這個部分嘛 對不對所以部長我們今天在這裡要把幾個層次分清楚一個是世界對於核電的態度是什麼\n另外一個是臺灣到底有沒有條件來使用核電而臺灣使用核電的前提是我們到底有沒有辦法處理核廢料所以這幾個層次其實部長你應該像念經一樣不停的不停的對全國來做一個宣達也就是全國人民要認知到的是我們在討論使用核電之前的前提是到底我們臺灣有沒有能耐\n有沒有縣市願意接受處理核廢料成為在你身邊的最終處置場就是這樣子而已其他的技術都是另外的問題所以在這樣的狀況下部長我再次的說其實資訊的傳達真的是非常重要所以\n這題如此那另外一個題目我覺得可能會變成新的狀況是你剛剛在在的說氣候損失與損害基金是這一次COP28的結論重要結論之一那臺灣也表示我們願意參與甚至是先行參與這個基金的這個建制\n以致於我們未來可以參與更多的組織面向那我想請你簡短的回答請問我們是要用什麼樣的名義捐助捐助多少何時捐預算來源想要達到什麼樣的效果這個部分你始終還沒有做過解釋請你現在解釋我先講一個案例就是剛剛我跟洪委員有提到我們今年七月份外交部吳部長跟我們太平洋\n四個有幫國家包括柏流、諾魯還有馬薩爾以及另外一個國家成立一個Just Transition Fund那我們台灣已經提供10 million就是一千萬美元去做那個基金所以同樣我對媒體也講過假如我們能夠實際參與COP的第一國的大會\n臺灣願意履行會員的一個責任我們來捐那當然這個經費要捐多少就必須要我們行政院或者甚至是更高的成績因為我想大家都會更想要知道說我們這個的預算是從哪一個部門哪一個項目來出來\n那另外這個預算能夠達到的效果是什麼比如說你剛剛說我們已經跟這四個國家有過這樣子的一個基金變成一個團體那麼請問一下這一次在大會當中他們對我們的態度如何我非常正面他們在聯合國大會氣候大會裡面事實上為我們發聲覺得不應該遺漏任何一個國家或地區那我們為什麼當時選擇這四個國家\n因為太平洋島國這個事實上是比較嚴重我這次跟很多包括加勒比海我們的友邦他們都紛紛跟我表達說希望他們能夠加入這個基金所以事實上環境很正面我昨天跟院長跟外交部\n所以這是一個正向的發展因為我們選擇這幾個國家是他們跟我們一樣都屬於海島型國家大家都是會面對氣候變遷首當其衝的國家而在這一些條件的國家當中台灣是屬於比較有能力的國家所以我們率先出來這等於是台灣can help的再一次的證明嘛\n那在這樣的狀況之下我們果然因此收獲了善意的循環所以他們願意幫我們在大會發聲那我們當然期待這個可以繼續下去我想部長因為他確實是動用了國家的預算所以其他的委員一定會繼續的追問你成效如何我期待的是你能夠像剛剛使用何能的這一題你念經也好啦你就是一樣的東西一直講\n一定要說到大家都能夠懂大家都能夠耳熟能詳大家就知道國家政策的方向是如此這般那你才有可能得到追隨者嘛所以在這裡的話我是希望部長能夠把這個部分再講更清楚一點繼續傳達 謝謝部長好 謝謝蘇偉仁好 謝謝謝謝蘇偉仁 有請吳益勤委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.560 --> 00:10.202\n好謝謝主席我們請薛部長有請部長好蘇委員好部長好那部長跟幾位委員有實地到這個COP28的現場去看過確實帶回了很多第一手的資料所以剛剛洪委員講的我其實很想說洪委員講的我們都贊成啦我們直接簽連署啦請部長直接照做\n\n00:32.918 --> 00:57.792\n不過這個有一些細節的部分確實部長還可以請你再多做說明一點比如說剛剛說這個決議的部分洪委員剛剛提到了因為同樣的這樣的一個會議開下來在時間的不同當中也有各種不同的團體不同的國家集結成不同意見的發送但我們必須說COP28的結論應該只有一個吧\n\n01:00.453 --> 01:00.834\n昨天下午最後一個\n\n01:13.257 --> 01:37.703\n不用啦部長這個問題很簡單啦有沒有結論嘛有嘛什麼時候發出的這個結論昨天下午啊昨天嘛所以昨天以前的都不叫大會結論對吧不是那個都是倡議而已都是倡議而已嘛所以大會結論是在昨天才發出的嘛而且就是我們現在列出來這個也是你剛剛報告的現在我的投影片這個這個才是昨天這一次本屆今年COP28的結論可以這樣說嘛好那部長\n\n01:41.104 --> 02:05.452\n部長我想請問一下請你用一點簡短的回答你剛剛在回答洪委員的時候我們有提到的是國內有人據說他直接在12月5號的時候就已經把這個某一次的倡議變成了28會議的結論然後大肆宣揚這中間其實在講的就是對核能的態度所以我們回到前夜好不好回到前夜\n\n02:07.089 --> 02:27.004\n我想請你在這個備詢台上你再次的說明在COP28裡面對於核能的態度到底是什麼它的比重談論到的狀況是如何請你簡單說明一下是的我在事實上在看到國內這個報導之後我馬上接受媒體的聯訪\n\n02:29.005 --> 02:47.402\n我表達得非常清楚現階段核能對臺灣而言是假議題部長我想先請問你的是COP28它的結論當中提到核能有多少並且它把核能列為一個什麼樣的狀況它是倡議裡面是希望2050年那是倡議我現在問的是結論結論沒有啊\n\n02:52.767 --> 03:10.714\n結論有啦結論有啦結論還是有啦在結論當中他是在加快零排放和低排放技術發展的這一項當中在這個當中把核能確實有放進去我們就事論事嘛他把核能有放進去在這個\n\n03:12.274 --> 03:31.645\n加快零排放及低排放技術的發展當中有列進去但這表示他就是把核能列為綠電嗎其實也不盡然嘛也不盡然但他確實表示這是一個可能降低碳排的技術之一對不對所以我們必須說其實在整個COP28的這個結論當中大會結論當中有提到核能沒有錯但\n\n03:36.127 --> 03:53.261\n它是把它列為應該要繼續發展的新技術之一但不是前面所說的在22個國家裡面提出的倡議當中說哎呀我們全世界就是應該要用三倍數的方向來發展核能完全沒有這件事情嘛對不對\n\n03:54.062 --> 04:09.180\n完全沒有這件事情嘛結論跟倡議是不一樣的狀況之下在結論我們甚至是也沒有倡議的這樣的內容這個應該是可以部長在這裡以一個參與過的以一個部長的身份在這裡向全國公開再次聲明吧\n\n04:09.881 --> 04:25.448\n是沒有所謂在2050年要把核能三倍的這個結論完全沒有但是核能對某些國家它可以變成再生能源甚至它\n\n04:26.208 --> 04:51.794\n配合他自己國家的環境配合他的條件嘛對不對對每個國家情況都不一樣那麼現在這樣就回來是當COP28有這樣的結論之後又必須要適應的是每一個國家不同的條件就是你現在這樣說的嘛好所以部長你在之前的言論當中你有說到對台灣來講核能的發展是一個假議題你可不可以在這裡再一次表示核能的發展是假議題這句話是什麼意思\n\n04:52.794 --> 05:14.703\n其實你也有前提啊是你也有前提啊連報紙我都還幫你選必須在三個前提之下獲得確保之後台灣去發展核電我相信那時候大家是可以接受的那我們並不是說沒有把它列入我們的未來發展方向就不會去就忽略掉核能\n\n05:15.183 --> 05:37.262\n事實上我們很多協助研究單位持續針對核能的研發所以是哪三個條件第一個確保核能的安全第二個核廢料獲得妥善的處理第三個有全民共識我想這三個應該那在這三個當中其實最難的其實就是你這次說的就核廢未解決所以談核電是假議題\n\n05:38.423 --> 05:57.661\n為什麼會這樣講的原因是因為現在在發展核電的國家當中我們必須說其實他們都是屬於有能力或者有現況可以處理核廢料的部分的國家嘛那在這些國家當中其實很大一個條件大部分的就是地廣人稀他有一個空間可以去處理核廢那偏偏台灣的狀況就是地狹人叢恰恰相反\n\n06:03.166 --> 06:23.897\n所以以從過去到現在來講甚至不管是哪一個政黨執政沒有一個中央政府現在還沒有辦法處理最終處置場的問題啊所以在沒有辦法處理核廢之前其實你核電技術再怎麼發展除非你有辦法發展到我們做核電都完全沒有核廢料\n\n06:24.597 --> 06:45.900\n或讓這個核廢料是所有人都認為它是安全的科學檢測它也是安全的我現在說的是核廢料還不是核能發電而已喔在這樣的狀況下才有空間台灣才有可能進行到共識的這個部分嘛對不對所以部長我們今天在這裡要把幾個層次分清楚一個是世界對於核電的態度是什麼\n\n06:46.440 --> 07:07.825\n另外一個是臺灣到底有沒有條件來使用核電而臺灣使用核電的前提是我們到底有沒有辦法處理核廢料所以這幾個層次其實部長你應該像念經一樣不停的不停的對全國來做一個宣達也就是全國人民要認知到的是我們在討論使用核電之前的前提是到底我們臺灣有沒有能耐\n\n07:10.026 --> 07:21.957\n有沒有縣市願意接受處理核廢料成為在你身邊的最終處置場就是這樣子而已其他的技術都是另外的問題所以在這樣的狀況下部長我再次的說其實資訊的傳達真的是非常重要所以\n\n07:28.342 --> 07:44.407\n這題如此那另外一個題目我覺得可能會變成新的狀況是你剛剛在在的說氣候損失與損害基金是這一次COP28的結論重要結論之一那臺灣也表示我們願意參與甚至是先行參與這個基金的這個建制\n\n07:45.467 --> 08:09.739\n以致於我們未來可以參與更多的組織面向那我想請你簡短的回答請問我們是要用什麼樣的名義捐助捐助多少何時捐預算來源想要達到什麼樣的效果這個部分你始終還沒有做過解釋請你現在解釋我先講一個案例就是剛剛我跟洪委員有提到我們今年七月份外交部吳部長跟我們太平洋\n\n08:10.479 --> 08:36.751\n四個有幫國家包括柏流、諾魯還有馬薩爾以及另外一個國家成立一個JustTransitionFund那我們台灣已經提供10million就是一千萬美元去做那個基金所以同樣我對媒體也講過假如我們能夠實際參與COP的第一國的大會\n\n08:38.452 --> 08:57.421\n臺灣願意履行會員的一個責任我們來捐那當然這個經費要捐多少就必須要我們行政院或者甚至是更高的成績因為我想大家都會更想要知道說我們這個的預算是從哪一個部門哪一個項目來出來\n\n08:58.041 --> 09:21.846\n那另外這個預算能夠達到的效果是什麼比如說你剛剛說我們已經跟這四個國家有過這樣子的一個基金變成一個團體那麼請問一下這一次在大會當中他們對我們的態度如何我非常正面他們在聯合國大會氣候大會裡面事實上為我們發聲覺得不應該遺漏任何一個國家或地區那我們為什麼當時選擇這四個國家\n\n09:23.866 --> 09:38.356\n因為太平洋島國這個事實上是比較嚴重我這次跟很多包括加勒比海我們的友邦他們都紛紛跟我表達說希望他們能夠加入這個基金所以事實上環境很正面我昨天跟院長跟外交部\n\n09:39.176 --> 09:59.433\n所以這是一個正向的發展因為我們選擇這幾個國家是他們跟我們一樣都屬於海島型國家大家都是會面對氣候變遷首當其衝的國家而在這一些條件的國家當中台灣是屬於比較有能力的國家所以我們率先出來這等於是台灣canhelp的再一次的證明嘛\n\n09:59.873 --> 10:05.477\n那在這樣的狀況之下我們果然因此收獲了善意的循環所以他們願意幫我們在大會發聲那我們當然期待這個可以繼續下去我想部長因為他確實是動用了國家的預算所以其他的委員一定會繼續的追問你成效如何我期待的是你能夠像剛剛使用何能的這一題你念經也好啦你就是一樣的東西一直講\n\n10:26.332 --> 10:41.605\n一定要說到大家都能夠懂大家都能夠耳熟能詳大家就知道國家政策的方向是如此這般那你才有可能得到追隨者嘛所以在這裡的話我是希望部長能夠把這個部分再講更清楚一點繼續傳達謝謝部長好謝謝蘇偉仁好謝謝謝謝蘇偉仁有請吳益勤委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.56,"end":10.202,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請薛部長有請部長好 蘇委員好部長好那部長跟幾位委員有實地到這個COP28的現場去看過確實帶回了很多第一手的資料所以剛剛洪委員講的我其實很想說洪委員講的我們都贊成啦我們直接簽連署啦請部長直接照做"},{"start":32.918,"end":57.792,"text":"不過這個有一些細節的部分確實部長還可以請你再多做說明一點比如說剛剛說這個決議的部分洪委員剛剛提到了因為同樣的這樣的一個會議開下來在時間的不同當中也有各種不同的團體不同的國家集結成不同意見的發送但我們必須說COP28的結論應該只有一個吧"},{"start":60.453,"end":60.834,"text":"昨天下午最後一個"},{"start":73.257,"end":97.703,"text":"不用啦部長這個問題很簡單啦有沒有結論嘛有嘛什麼時候發出的這個結論昨天下午啊昨天嘛所以昨天以前的都不叫大會結論對吧不是那個都是倡議而已都是倡議而已嘛所以大會結論是在昨天才發出的嘛而且就是我們現在列出來這個也是你剛剛報告的現在我的投影片這個這個才是昨天這一次本屆今年COP28的結論可以這樣說嘛好那部長"},{"start":101.104,"end":125.452,"text":"部長我想請問一下請你用一點簡短的回答你剛剛在回答洪委員的時候我們有提到的是國內有人據說他直接在12月5號的時候就已經把這個某一次的倡議變成了28會議的結論然後大肆宣揚這中間其實在講的就是對核能的態度所以我們回到前夜好不好回到前夜"},{"start":127.089,"end":147.004,"text":"我想請你在這個備詢台上你再次的說明在COP28裡面對於核能的態度到底是什麼它的比重談論到的狀況是如何請你簡單說明一下是的我在事實上在看到國內這個報導之後我馬上接受媒體的聯訪"},{"start":149.005,"end":167.402,"text":"我表達得非常清楚現階段核能對臺灣而言是假議題部長我想先請問你的是COP28它的結論當中提到核能有多少並且它把核能列為一個什麼樣的狀況它是倡議裡面是希望2050年那是倡議我現在問的是結論結論沒有啊"},{"start":172.767,"end":190.714,"text":"結論有啦結論有啦結論還是有啦在結論當中他是在加快零排放和低排放技術發展的這一項當中在這個當中把核能確實有放進去我們就事論事嘛他把核能有放進去在這個"},{"start":192.274,"end":211.645,"text":"加快零排放及低排放技術的發展當中有列進去但這表示他就是把核能列為綠電嗎其實也不盡然嘛也不盡然但他確實表示這是一個可能降低碳排的技術之一對不對所以我們必須說其實在整個COP28的這個結論當中大會結論當中有提到核能沒有錯但"},{"start":216.127,"end":233.261,"text":"它是把它列為應該要繼續發展的新技術之一但不是前面所說的在22個國家裡面提出的倡議當中說哎呀我們全世界就是應該要用三倍數的方向來發展核能完全沒有這件事情嘛對不對"},{"start":234.062,"end":249.18,"text":"完全沒有這件事情嘛結論跟倡議是不一樣的狀況之下在結論我們甚至是也沒有倡議的這樣的內容這個應該是可以部長在這裡以一個參與過的以一個部長的身份在這裡向全國公開再次聲明吧"},{"start":249.881,"end":265.448,"text":"是沒有所謂在2050年要把核能三倍的這個結論完全沒有但是核能對某些國家它可以變成再生能源甚至它"},{"start":266.208,"end":291.794,"text":"配合他自己國家的環境配合他的條件嘛對不對對每個國家情況都不一樣那麼現在這樣就回來是當COP28有這樣的結論之後又必須要適應的是每一個國家不同的條件就是你現在這樣說的嘛好所以部長你在之前的言論當中你有說到對台灣來講核能的發展是一個假議題你可不可以在這裡再一次表示核能的發展是假議題這句話是什麼意思"},{"start":292.794,"end":314.703,"text":"其實你也有前提啊是你也有前提啊連報紙我都還幫你選必須在三個前提之下獲得確保之後台灣去發展核電我相信那時候大家是可以接受的那我們並不是說沒有把它列入我們的未來發展方向就不會去就忽略掉核能"},{"start":315.183,"end":337.262,"text":"事實上我們很多協助研究單位持續針對核能的研發所以是哪三個條件第一個確保核能的安全第二個核廢料獲得妥善的處理第三個有全民共識我想這三個應該那在這三個當中其實最難的其實就是你這次說的就核廢未解決所以談核電是假議題"},{"start":338.423,"end":357.661,"text":"為什麼會這樣講的原因是因為現在在發展核電的國家當中我們必須說其實他們都是屬於有能力或者有現況可以處理核廢料的部分的國家嘛那在這些國家當中其實很大一個條件大部分的就是地廣人稀他有一個空間可以去處理核廢那偏偏台灣的狀況就是地狹人叢恰恰相反"},{"start":363.166,"end":383.897,"text":"所以以從過去到現在來講甚至不管是哪一個政黨執政沒有一個中央政府現在還沒有辦法處理最終處置場的問題啊所以在沒有辦法處理核廢之前其實你核電技術再怎麼發展除非你有辦法發展到我們做核電都完全沒有核廢料"},{"start":384.597,"end":405.9,"text":"或讓這個核廢料是所有人都認為它是安全的科學檢測它也是安全的我現在說的是核廢料還不是核能發電而已喔在這樣的狀況下才有空間台灣才有可能進行到共識的這個部分嘛 對不對所以部長我們今天在這裡要把幾個層次分清楚一個是世界對於核電的態度是什麼"},{"start":406.44,"end":427.825,"text":"另外一個是臺灣到底有沒有條件來使用核電而臺灣使用核電的前提是我們到底有沒有辦法處理核廢料所以這幾個層次其實部長你應該像念經一樣不停的不停的對全國來做一個宣達也就是全國人民要認知到的是我們在討論使用核電之前的前提是到底我們臺灣有沒有能耐"},{"start":430.026,"end":441.957,"text":"有沒有縣市願意接受處理核廢料成為在你身邊的最終處置場就是這樣子而已其他的技術都是另外的問題所以在這樣的狀況下部長我再次的說其實資訊的傳達真的是非常重要所以"},{"start":448.342,"end":464.407,"text":"這題如此那另外一個題目我覺得可能會變成新的狀況是你剛剛在在的說氣候損失與損害基金是這一次COP28的結論重要結論之一那臺灣也表示我們願意參與甚至是先行參與這個基金的這個建制"},{"start":465.467,"end":489.739,"text":"以致於我們未來可以參與更多的組織面向那我想請你簡短的回答請問我們是要用什麼樣的名義捐助捐助多少何時捐預算來源想要達到什麼樣的效果這個部分你始終還沒有做過解釋請你現在解釋我先講一個案例就是剛剛我跟洪委員有提到我們今年七月份外交部吳部長跟我們太平洋"},{"start":490.479,"end":516.751,"text":"四個有幫國家包括柏流、諾魯還有馬薩爾以及另外一個國家成立一個Just Transition Fund那我們台灣已經提供10 million就是一千萬美元去做那個基金所以同樣我對媒體也講過假如我們能夠實際參與COP的第一國的大會"},{"start":518.452,"end":537.421,"text":"臺灣願意履行會員的一個責任我們來捐那當然這個經費要捐多少就必須要我們行政院或者甚至是更高的成績因為我想大家都會更想要知道說我們這個的預算是從哪一個部門哪一個項目來出來"},{"start":538.041,"end":561.846,"text":"那另外這個預算能夠達到的效果是什麼比如說你剛剛說我們已經跟這四個國家有過這樣子的一個基金變成一個團體那麼請問一下這一次在大會當中他們對我們的態度如何我非常正面他們在聯合國大會氣候大會裡面事實上為我們發聲覺得不應該遺漏任何一個國家或地區那我們為什麼當時選擇這四個國家"},{"start":563.866,"end":578.356,"text":"因為太平洋島國這個事實上是比較嚴重我這次跟很多包括加勒比海我們的友邦他們都紛紛跟我表達說希望他們能夠加入這個基金所以事實上環境很正面我昨天跟院長跟外交部"},{"start":579.176,"end":599.433,"text":"所以這是一個正向的發展因為我們選擇這幾個國家是他們跟我們一樣都屬於海島型國家大家都是會面對氣候變遷首當其衝的國家而在這一些條件的國家當中台灣是屬於比較有能力的國家所以我們率先出來這等於是台灣can help的再一次的證明嘛"},{"start":599.873,"end":605.477,"text":"那在這樣的狀況之下我們果然因此收獲了善意的循環所以他們願意幫我們在大會發聲那我們當然期待這個可以繼續下去我想部長因為他確實是動用了國家的預算所以其他的委員一定會繼續的追問你成效如何我期待的是你能夠像剛剛使用何能的這一題你念經也好啦你就是一樣的東西一直講"},{"start":626.332,"end":641.605,"text":"一定要說到大家都能夠懂大家都能夠耳熟能詳大家就知道國家政策的方向是如此這般那你才有可能得到追隨者嘛所以在這裡的話我是希望部長能夠把這個部分再講更清楚一點繼續傳達 謝謝部長好 謝謝蘇偉仁好 謝謝謝謝蘇偉仁 有請吳益勤委員"}]}}}}