{"id":149023,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149023","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c3bdc7fe97080a56eba8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a03227ec09d647ab4e3bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳玉琴","委員發言時間":"09:45:19 - 09:57:55","影片長度":"00:12:36","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-15"},"date":"2023-12-14","duration":756,"end_time":"2023-12-14T09:57:55+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-14T09:45:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":503,"blocks":[["吳委員玉琴：（9時45分）謝謝主席。我要先請經濟部曾次長，還有環境部薛部長以及農業部王玉真王副司長，謝謝。"],["主席：有請行政單位。"],["吳委員玉琴：曾次長，我先請教你，因為有關經濟部的議題，這次COP第28次締約大會針對有關轉型脫離化石燃料的一個共識，裡面有幾項要跟經濟部討論一下，因為接下來這樣一個目標，檢視我們國內的情形到底達標或是難度有沒有很高，剛剛其實洪申翰委員也有稍微提到，比如說COP28的結論裡面再生能源要成長3倍，增至3倍，如果照我們現在的情形來講，臺灣的再生能源現在大概占整個總發電量的8.26%，如果在2030年……"],["曾次長文生：2022年。"],["吳委員玉琴：2022年的時候，接下來到2030年如果要成長3倍，我大概估算總電量增加2%，然後再生能源大概要達到24.8%左右，如果這樣估算應該是合理。其實我們從2050年淨零排放的規劃裡面，再生能源要達到60%到70%，但因為我們沒有一個中間的目標值，經濟部在估算過程中應該是循序漸進的成長，我們2030年要達到24.8%這個目標可行嗎？"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，就是兩個部分，第一個部分是您這一頁簡報裡面提到2030年24.8%，國發會的規劃是要能源部門做到27%。"],["吳委員玉琴：27%？"],["曾次長文生：到30%。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以比這個要求還更高。"],["曾次長文生：所以是會比這個量還更高。第二個部分跟委員報告，這次COP28在計算的時候是算裝置容量。"],["吳委員玉琴：裝置容量！所以不是發電？"],["曾次長文生：我們的裝置容量到2030年依照我們的規劃是絕對會超過3倍的，我們現在規劃起來的量，以2022年大概14個giga來做基礎的話，我們到2030年會超過40個giga是目標值。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["曾次長文生：是目標，我們會超過40個giga，所以，以這一個要求來講，再生能源裝置容量成長3倍，或是委員提的這一頁簡報，就是發電量要比2022年成長3倍，都是我們的目標，我們也覺得達成的機會非常非常的高。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。就能源的配置上面，這個再生能源是我們現在的風力發電─陸上風電、海上風電、地面光電、屋頂光電，有沒有地熱？在整個發展裡面。"],["曾次長文生：地熱這部分，我們大概有三個重要的目標，第一個就是加速speed up，然後scale up，這是既有的一些技術，另外一個是diversify，就是要讓它更多元化。除了風跟光以外，地熱是我們接下來第三個最重要的再生能源，當然也會配合水力。"],["吳委員玉琴：喔，還有水力的部分。謝謝。","接下來也要請教您一下，煤電減排的部分還是我們經濟部的議題，在這次COP28也談到應該要去發展所謂的碳捕捉負排放（CCUS）技術，在這樣一個技術裡面，請問，如果我們真的在2050年要吸收4,020萬公噸的二氧化碳，我們辦公室在估算二氧化碳透過這樣一個碳捕捉技術把它抓下來，我要問的是這個量應該很大吧？未來怎麼儲存？"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，這次跟化石燃料有關的，從phase out一路改變成transition away，其實化石燃料也有不同的類型，燃煤、燃油、天然氣三個的排碳量排碳密度是不一樣的，其實這一次天然氣的角色也有被特別突出，當然它必須配合CCS，它必須配合CCS，就是碳捕捉封存或是碳捕捉再利用，碳捕捉封存再利用這裡面算到了4,000萬噸……"],["吳委員玉琴：這是您的報告裡面提到的？"],["曾次長文生：對，這是國發會當時在算整個路徑的時候估算的。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["曾次長文生：這個CCS現在正在發展中，有幾個事情，我們現在跟國科會合作的相關項目包含國內的地質學者，事實上臺灣西岸有一些適合的地層能夠來做碳的封存，但是現在捕捉的技術要跟全世界一起合作，因為碳的封存、碳的捕捉跟脫附然後再封存，這中間怎麼能夠提升它的捕捉效率，這是重要的工作。"],["吳委員玉琴：也就是說2050年，我們的碳捕捉技術可能還會不斷精進。"],["曾次長文生：其實這幾年包括國際上很多的大公司都在做這一塊。"],["吳委員玉琴：是，我問的是這些固化的二氧化碳捕捉下來了會變成碳酸鈣嘛，那這些的儲存，你剛剛也提到西部有地方可以放，因為我在估算量的時候，其實它大概每4年就可以在大安森林公園這個面積上堆了一座101耶！所以這個量蠻大的，關於去化等等，你們有在思考這個問題嗎？"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，因為它地質上面的尺度，如果可以的話，我們其實應該找專門的學者來，我只是聽他們的說明之後轉述，我怕有點不精準。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["曾次長文生：但他們現在估算出來的量遠高於此，因為這個是1年0.4億噸，他們算出來的……"],["吳委員玉琴：更高？"],["曾次長文生：對，是比這個還要高的，而且它是打到海水底下的鹽水層，他們有一些他們的作法，我覺得很多技術細節，如果在這邊講……"],["吳委員玉琴：是，瞭解。"],["曾次長文生：我不是專家，我怕講錯。"],["吳委員玉琴：到2050年其實有很多技術還有很多的課題要面對，我想我們政府以及剛剛聽曾次長這樣講是有在思考的，不是完全沒有去想這些事。"],["曾次長文生：常常在討論這些問題。"],["吳委員玉琴：好，謝謝，我知道這個技術還是有很多要討論的。","接下來要問有關這一次在COP 28裡面提到甲烷要清零，這要問農業部跟環境部，我們知道在2023年國家排放清冊裡面有記載甲烷的排放，2021年甲烷的排放大概是445萬噸左右二氧化碳當量，這樣的情形之下，其實農業大概占了188萬噸，廢棄物大概占了180萬噸。如果到2030年要甲烷淨零，畜牧業部分，因為最主要的甲烷大概就是畜牧業還有廢棄物，請問農業部跟環境部有什麼想法？"],["薛部長富盛：跟吳委員報告，有關廢棄物的部分，我們已經在推動厭氧發酵產生沼氣，這已經有一些示範的場域，未來會持續。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以2030年要清零，有沒有問題？因為他的目標也是2030年甲烷要清零。"],["顏署長旭明：跟委員報告，我們的廢棄物最主要來自掩埋場，掩埋有機物造成甲烷……"],["吳委員玉琴：還有污水場啊！"],["顏署長旭明：對，還有污水場的污泥。在掩埋場部分，目前我們的掩埋場有48座，封閉之後設置太陽能，這是中和的部分；沼氣發電在短期之內，如果能夠負極的，我們會發電，比較沒有辦法負極的，我們是破壞做沼氣收集。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["顏署長旭明：所以目前以高峰相比的話，整個掩埋場的甲烷排放量已經降到以前的10%左右，只剩下10%，我們會依上述的講法來做中和跟解除。"],["吳委員玉琴：有一個目標值，我們再來努力嘛！"],["顏署長旭明：是，謝謝。"],["吳委員玉琴：農業部因為畜牧要養豬、養牛，這好像很難，你們的目標或是你們怎麼處理這個？"],["王副司長玉真：是，簡單跟委員報告，我們在畜牧產業的部分，除了我們積極推動禽畜糞尿的資源化處理，所有的家禽、家畜，包括最重要的……"],["吳委員玉琴：你們也是用厭氧發酵來發電嗎？"],["王副司長玉真：豬隻的部分的話，是。而且我們已經超過250萬頭以上在做沼氣的再利用。"],["吳委員玉琴：是，所以也是朝這個目標來解決啦！"],["王副司長玉真：有、有、有，謝謝。"],["吳委員玉琴：好，謝謝。最後我要問環境部，給你一點時間來回應氣候變遷保護績效CCPI對我們臺灣的評價，說我們的排名倒數第7；或是我們溫室氣體排放排名倒數第4；再生能源所占比例好像也太低；且能源耗用與節能也表現很差。我們有那麼差嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上這個CCPI它的方法學是完全錯誤，跟整個COP28締約方大家追求的方向完全相反，舉個例子而言，菲律賓跟印度竟然排名第6名跟第7名。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["薛部長富盛：他們在過去這一年碳排量都增加了6、70%，而且還在增加燃煤發電廠。"],["吳委員玉琴：嗯。"],["薛部長富盛：所以這個完全是違背我們一般的認知，更何況在2030年我們臺灣人均每個人一年只能排放2.7噸，結果菲律賓、印度每個人可以排放到7噸到8噸，同樣是人，為什麼他們會那麼高？"],["吳委員玉琴：對，為什麼會這樣計算？"],["薛部長富盛：所以我們就說這個CCPI根本是不值得去討論、不用花時間去討論。"],["吳委員玉琴：喔！是。"],["薛部長富盛：我們國內也有學者發表文章來反駁這個CCPI。"],["吳委員玉琴：是，雖然部長這樣講，可是當國際NGO來對我們這樣的評價，其實對我們來講國際形象還是有傷的啊！"],["薛部長富盛：給委員報告，聯合國另外有一個歐盟的氣候研究中心，它的評比在210個國家裡面，我們是排第45名。"],["吳委員玉琴：是、是。"],["薛部長富盛：那個才是根據減碳量的表現，所以在210個國家裡面我們排第45名，我們是屬於前段班的。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["薛部長富盛：這個CCPI它才選67個國家，去年選63個國家，今年選67個國家，那麼在我們後面的國家還包括韓國、加拿大，美國跟日本也大概跟我們都一樣排在第5、60名。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["薛部長富盛：所以我個人覺得就是，我們國內應該對自己的國家有信心，對於排碳的努力，雖然我們還沒有達到完美的境界，但是我們一直朝這個方向努力，應該給大家肯定。當然我們在政策方面，事實上CCPI也對我們國家的政策肯定，我們在政策的部分排名第24啊！"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["薛部長富盛：它是排碳量這一部分把我們排到很後面，因為它的方法根本就是錯誤的嘛！所以大概是這樣子。"],["吳委員玉琴：嗯、好，所以說有機會讓部長能夠說明。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["吳委員玉琴：因為我看到這個對我們評價這麼差，我們也有點嚇一跳啦！雖然我們這幾年真的是很努力在法制跟政策方面……"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["吳委員玉琴：都已經朝2050年淨零排放的一個目標在努力，所以我們還是持續來努力。"],["薛部長富盛：是，好，謝謝吳委員！"],["吳委員玉琴：謝謝部長、謝謝次長！"],["主席：謝謝，有請林為洲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-15","speakers":["吳欣盈","洪申翰","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","林為洲","邱泰源","黃秀芳","陳椒華","徐志榮","張育美","陳瑩","王婉諭","賴惠員","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":393,"meetingDate":["2023-12-14"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委\n員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候\n變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130201_00006"}},"transcript":{"id":"149023","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149023","tool":"pyannote","id":"149023-pyannote"},"job_id":"fjLOmOWcz2MbQW0P","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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\"start\": 727.73, \"end\": 727.85, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"維\"}, {\"word\": \"洲\", \"start\": 727.85, \"end\": 727.97, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"林\", \"start\": 727.97, \"end\": 727.99, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 727.99, \"end\": 728.01, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,189 --> 00:00:12,696\n主席我要先請經濟部的曾次長還有我們環境部學務部長以及農業部的王玉珍王副司長謝謝\n\n2\n00:00:17,745 --> 00:00:31,226\n有請行政單位曾次長我先請教你因為有關經濟部的議題這是COP這個第28次的第一大會裡面針對有關轉型脫離化石燃料的一個\n\n3\n00:00:32,087 --> 00:00:55,615\n共識裡面有幾項要來跟經濟部討論一下因為接下來這樣的一個目標那檢視我們國內的情形到底達標或是這個難度有沒有很高剛剛其實洪森漢我也有稍微提到比如說我們這個COP28的結論裡面再生能源要成長三倍增至三倍那如果照我們現在的情形來講臺灣的這個再生能源現在是大概佔了整個總\n\n4\n00:01:00,097 --> 00:01:03,622\n總發電量的8.26那如果在2030年2022年的時候那接下來我們如果要到2030年要到成長三倍我是大概估算了它的總電量的增加2%\n\n5\n00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:36,411\n然後這個再生能源大概要達到24.8%左右如果這樣估算應該是合理那如果其實我們從我們2050年淨零排放的規劃裡面其實再生能源要達60到70看起來應該我們2030年這個因為我們中間沒有一個中間的目標值\n\n6\n00:01:38,855 --> 00:01:43,565\n從經濟部在估算的過程中應該是循序漸進的成長嗎我們2030年要達到24.8這個目標可行嗎\n\n7\n00:01:49,386 --> 00:02:10,616\n跟委員報告就是兩個部分第一個部分是您這一頁簡報裡面提到2030年24.8那個國發會的規劃是要農業部門做到27到30所以比這個量還更高那第二個部分跟委員報告就是說這次COP28它在計算的時候是算那個裝置容量\n\n8\n00:02:10,976 --> 00:02:13,957\n我們的裝置容量到2030是依照我們的規劃是絕對會超過三倍的那個是我們現在規劃起來的量以2022年大概14個GIGA來做基礎的話我們到2030年會超過40個GIGA目標值\n\n9\n00:02:30,164 --> 00:02:51,435\n是目標我們會超過40個Giga所以以這一個要求來講再生能源、裝置能量成長三倍或是委員提的這一頁簡報就是發電量要比2020年成長三倍都是我們的目標我們也覺得達成的機會非常非常的高那就能源的配置上面這個再生能源是我們現在風力發電路上風電、海上風電、地面光電、屋頂光電有沒有地熱\n\n10\n00:03:00,281 --> 00:03:18,881\n我們大概有三個重要的目標第一個就是加速然後這是既有的一些技術另外一個是就是要讓它更多元化除了風跟光以外地熱是我們接下來第三個最重要的再生能源當然也會配合水利\n\n11\n00:03:20,057 --> 00:03:28,059\n好還有水利的部分好謝謝那接下來也要請教您一下就是這個煤電的減排的部分還是我們經濟部的議題那在這個因為我們在這次的COP28裡面也談到說應該要去發展這個所謂碳補桌副排放的\n\n12\n00:03:39,782 --> 00:03:39,802\n致獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲\n\n13\n00:04:03,873 --> 00:04:28,371\n淡捕捉的技術把它抓下來那我要問的是這個量應該很大吧?那未來怎麼儲存?這次跟化石燃料有關的從Face-out一路改變成純芯的位其實化石燃料也有不同的類型燃煤、燃油、天然氣三個的排碳量排碳密度是不一樣的\n\n14\n00:04:29,071 --> 00:04:46,484\n那其實這一次天然氣的角色也有被特別突出當然它必須配合CCS它必須配合CCS就是碳補桌封存或是碳補桌再利用那碳補桌封存再利用這裡面算到了這個這個四千萬噸這是你們的報告裡面提到的對這是國發會當時在算整個路徑的時候估算的\n\n15\n00:04:50,927 --> 00:05:12,539\n這個CCS的部分現在正在發展中我想說有幾個事情包含我們跟國科會合作的相關項目現在包含國內的地質學者因為台灣的西岸其實事實上是有一些適合的地層能夠來做那個碳的封存但是捕捉的技術\n\n16\n00:05:13,781 --> 00:05:33,698\n現在要跟全世界一起合作因為碳的捕捉跟託付然後在封存的中間怎麼樣子能夠提升它的效率捕捉效率也就是說2050年我們碳捕捉的技術可能還會不斷去精進其實這幾年大家包括很多國際上很多大公司都在做這一塊\n\n17\n00:05:34,338 --> 00:05:52,060\n我再問的是說這些固化的二氧化碳你捕捉下來的會變成碳酸鈣嗎那這些的儲存你剛剛也提到說西部有地方可以放因為我在估算這個量的時候其實它大概會每四年就可以在大安森林公園這個面積上堆了一座101\n\n18\n00:05:53,542 --> 00:06:23,062\n所以這個量蠻大的所以去化或是你們有在思考這個問題嗎跟委員包括因為它那個地質上面的尺度因為如果可以的話我們其實應該找這一個專門學門的學者來我只是聽他們的說明以後轉述一下我怕有點不精準但它那個整個規它現在估算出來的一個量是遠高於因為這個是0.4億噸一年他們算出來的更高\n\n19\n00:06:25,362 --> 00:06:48,427\n對,是比這個還要高的,而且它是打到海水底下的淹水層它有一些他們的做法,我覺得那個很多技術細節,如果在這裡講...是,了解,因為我覺得到2050年其實很多的技術還有很多課題要面對,我想我們政府都聽剛剛政策長這樣講是有在思考的,不是完全沒有去想這些事\n\n20\n00:06:50,147 --> 00:07:13,770\n好謝謝我知道因為這個技術還是有很多要來討論的好謝謝那我接下來要問有關這一次在COP28裡面也提到甲烷要清零這個是要問農業部跟環境部的部分那我們知道甲烷的一個排放在我們的2023年的國家排放清澈有記載的有所在就是那個2021年我們甲烷的排放大概是445\n\n21\n00:07:16,773 --> 00:07:24,780\n二氧化碳的當量這樣的一個情形其實農業的部分大概佔了188萬噸廢棄物大概佔了180萬噸接下來我們要如果到2030年要所謂的\n\n22\n00:07:33,969 --> 00:07:34,169\n甲碗淨零\n\n23\n00:08:05,177 --> 00:08:27,200\n跟委員報告最主要我們那個會區主要來自掩埋場掩埋有幾乎造成還有污水場對還有污水場的污泥這個部分那在掩埋場的部分目前我們的這個掩埋場有48座是封閉之後設置太陽能這大概是綜合的部分\n\n24\n00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:27,860\n中央會議中央會議\n\n25\n00:08:47,763 --> 00:09:04,735\n剩下百分之十我們會依上述的講法來做一個綜合跟有一個目標值我們就再去來努力嘛那農業部這邊因為農畜牧我們要養豬啦養牛啦這個好像很難你們的目標或是你們怎麼處理這個\n\n26\n00:09:06,456 --> 00:09:24,901\n簡單跟委員報告我們在畜牧產業的部分除了就是說我們積極推動有情緒分尿的資源化處理所有的家庭家畜那包括就是說你們也是豔陽發酵嗎對株枝的部分的話是而且我們已經超過250萬頭以上有在做早期的一個再利用\n\n27\n00:09:25,822 --> 00:09:35,532\n是所以也是朝這個目標解決有有有好謝謝那最後我要問那個環境部來環境部給你一點時間回應這個氣候變遷績效的CCPI對我們臺灣的評價說我們告訴第七\n\n28\n00:09:44,348 --> 00:10:10,104\n或是我們衛生氣體排放倒數第四再生能源比例好像也太低那能源耗用跟節能也表現極差我們有那麼差嗎?實際上這個CCPI它的方法學是完全錯誤跟整個COP28、DA大家要追求的方向完全相反\n\n29\n00:10:10,984 --> 00:10:34,256\n舉個例子菲律賓跟印度既然排名第六名跟第七名他們在過去這一年碳排量都增加了60、70%而且還在增加燃煤化電廠所以這個完全是違背我們一般的認知更何況我們人均台灣只能每個人一年排2.7萬噸在2030年\n\n30\n00:10:37,117 --> 00:10:44,486\n結果菲律賓、印度他可以排到七頓到八頓為什麼他們會那麼高所以我們就說這個CCPI根本是不值得去討論不用花時間去討論我們國內也有寫著發表文章來反駁這個CCPI\n\n31\n00:10:58,221 --> 00:11:25,196\n雖然部長這樣講可是當國際的一個應該是NGO來對我們這樣的評價其實對我們來講還是國際形象還是有傷的啊聯合國另外有一個歐盟的氣候研究中心它的評比裡面在210個國家我們是排45名那個才是根據減碳量的表現所以我們45名在210個裡面我們是前段班的\n\n32\n00:11:26,697 --> 00:11:28,919\n新冠肺炎疫苗疫苗疫苗疫苗疫苗疫苗\n\n33\n00:11:51,218 --> 00:11:52,059\n國際合作發展基金會主席\n\n34\n00:12:07,710 --> 00:12:08,010\n有請林維洲、林委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n189\t12696\t主席我要先請經濟部的曾次長還有我們環境部學務部長以及農業部的王玉珍王副司長謝謝\n17745\t31226\t有請行政單位曾次長我先請教你因為有關經濟部的議題這是COP這個第28次的第一大會裡面針對有關轉型脫離化石燃料的一個\n32087\t55615\t共識裡面有幾項要來跟經濟部討論一下因為接下來這樣的一個目標那檢視我們國內的情形到底達標或是這個難度有沒有很高剛剛其實洪森漢我也有稍微提到比如說我們這個COP28的結論裡面再生能源要成長三倍增至三倍那如果照我們現在的情形來講臺灣的這個再生能源現在是大概佔了整個總\n60097\t63622\t總發電量的8.26那如果在2030年2022年的時候那接下來我們如果要到2030年要到成長三倍我是大概估算了它的總電量的增加2%\n76400\t96411\t然後這個再生能源大概要達到24.8%左右如果這樣估算應該是合理那如果其實我們從我們2050年淨零排放的規劃裡面其實再生能源要達60到70看起來應該我們2030年這個因為我們中間沒有一個中間的目標值\n98855\t103565\t從經濟部在估算的過程中應該是循序漸進的成長嗎我們2030年要達到24.8這個目標可行嗎\n109386\t130616\t跟委員報告就是兩個部分第一個部分是您這一頁簡報裡面提到2030年24.8那個國發會的規劃是要農業部門做到27到30所以比這個量還更高那第二個部分跟委員報告就是說這次COP28它在計算的時候是算那個裝置容量\n130976\t133957\t我們的裝置容量到2030是依照我們的規劃是絕對會超過三倍的那個是我們現在規劃起來的量以2022年大概14個GIGA來做基礎的話我們到2030年會超過40個GIGA目標值\n150164\t171435\t是目標 我們會超過40個Giga所以以這一個要求來講再生能源、裝置能量成長三倍或是委員提的這一頁簡報就是發電量要比2020年成長三倍都是我們的目標我們也覺得達成的機會非常非常的高那就能源的配置上面這個再生能源是我們現在風力發電路上風電、海上風電、地面光電、屋頂光電有沒有地熱\n180281\t198881\t我們大概有三個重要的目標第一個就是加速然後這是既有的一些技術另外一個是就是要讓它更多元化除了風跟光以外地熱是我們接下來第三個最重要的再生能源當然也會配合水利\n200057\t208059\t好還有水利的部分好謝謝那接下來也要請教您一下就是這個煤電的減排的部分還是我們經濟部的議題那在這個因為我們在這次的COP28裡面也談到說應該要去發展這個所謂碳補桌副排放的\n219782\t219802\t致獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲\n243873\t268371\t淡捕捉的技術把它抓下來那我要問的是這個量應該很大吧?那未來怎麼儲存?這次跟化石燃料有關的從Face-out一路改變成純芯的位其實化石燃料也有不同的類型燃煤、燃油、天然氣三個的排碳量排碳密度是不一樣的\n269071\t286484\t那其實這一次天然氣的角色也有被特別突出當然它必須配合CCS它必須配合CCS就是碳補桌封存或是碳補桌再利用那碳補桌封存再利用這裡面算到了這個這個四千萬噸這是你們的報告裡面提到的對這是國發會當時在算整個路徑的時候估算的\n290927\t312539\t這個CCS的部分現在正在發展中我想說有幾個事情包含我們跟國科會合作的相關項目現在包含國內的地質學者因為台灣的西岸其實事實上是有一些適合的地層能夠來做那個碳的封存但是捕捉的技術\n313781\t333698\t現在要跟全世界一起合作因為碳的捕捉跟託付然後在封存的中間怎麼樣子能夠提升它的效率捕捉效率也就是說2050年我們碳捕捉的技術可能還會不斷去精進其實這幾年大家包括很多國際上很多大公司都在做這一塊\n334338\t352060\t我再問的是說這些固化的二氧化碳你捕捉下來的會變成碳酸鈣嗎那這些的儲存你剛剛也提到說西部有地方可以放因為我在估算這個量的時候其實它大概會每四年就可以在大安森林公園這個面積上堆了一座101\n353542\t383062\t所以這個量蠻大的所以去化或是你們有在思考這個問題嗎跟委員包括因為它那個地質上面的尺度因為如果可以的話我們其實應該找這一個專門學門的學者來我只是聽他們的說明以後轉述一下我怕有點不精準但它那個整個規它現在估算出來的一個量是遠高於因為這個是0.4億噸一年他們算出來的更高\n385362\t408427\t對,是比這個還要高的,而且它是打到海水底下的淹水層它有一些他們的做法,我覺得那個很多技術細節,如果在這裡講...是,了解,因為我覺得到2050年其實很多的技術還有很多課題要面對,我想我們政府都聽剛剛政策長這樣講是有在思考的,不是完全沒有去想這些事\n410147\t433770\t好謝謝我知道因為這個技術還是有很多要來討論的好謝謝那我接下來要問有關這一次在COP28裡面也提到甲烷要清零這個是要問農業部跟環境部的部分那我們知道甲烷的一個排放在我們的2023年的國家排放清澈有記載的有所在就是那個2021年我們甲烷的排放大概是445\n436773\t444780\t二氧化碳的當量這樣的一個情形其實農業的部分大概佔了188萬噸廢棄物大概佔了180萬噸接下來我們要如果到2030年要所謂的\n453969\t454169\t甲碗淨零\n485177\t507200\t跟委員報告最主要我們那個會區主要來自掩埋場掩埋有幾乎造成還有污水場對還有污水場的污泥這個部分那在掩埋場的部分目前我們的這個掩埋場有48座是封閉之後設置太陽能這大概是綜合的部分\n507720\t507860\t中央會議中央會議\n527763\t544735\t剩下百分之十我們會依上述的講法來做一個綜合跟有一個目標值我們就再去來努力嘛那農業部這邊因為農畜牧我們要養豬啦養牛啦這個好像很難你們的目標或是你們怎麼處理這個\n546456\t564901\t簡單跟委員報告我們在畜牧產業的部分除了就是說我們積極推動有情緒分尿的資源化處理所有的家庭家畜那包括就是說你們也是豔陽發酵嗎對 株枝的部分的話是而且我們已經超過250萬頭以上有在做早期的一個再利用\n565822\t575532\t是所以也是朝這個目標解決有有有好謝謝那最後我要問那個環境部來環境部給你一點時間回應這個氣候變遷績效的CCPI對我們臺灣的評價說我們告訴第七\n584348\t610104\t或是我們衛生氣體排放倒數第四再生能源比例好像也太低那能源耗用跟節能也表現極差我們有那麼差嗎?實際上這個CCPI它的方法學是完全錯誤跟整個COP28、DA大家要追求的方向完全相反\n610984\t634256\t舉個例子菲律賓跟印度既然排名第六名跟第七名他們在過去這一年碳排量都增加了60、70%而且還在增加燃煤化電廠所以這個完全是違背我們一般的認知更何況我們人均台灣只能每個人一年排2.7萬噸在2030年\n637117\t644486\t結果菲律賓、印度他可以排到七頓到八頓為什麼他們會那麼高所以我們就說這個CCPI根本是不值得去討論不用花時間去討論我們國內也有寫著發表文章來反駁這個CCPI\n658221\t685196\t雖然部長這樣講可是當國際的一個應該是NGO來對我們這樣的評價其實對我們來講還是國際形象還是有傷的啊聯合國另外有一個歐盟的氣候研究中心它的評比裡面在210個國家我們是排45名那個才是根據減碳量的表現所以我們45名在210個裡面我們是前段班的\n686697\t688919\t新冠肺炎疫苗疫苗疫苗疫苗疫苗疫苗\n711218\t712059\t國際合作發展基金會主席\n727710\t728010\t有請林維洲、林委員\n","txt":"主席我要先請經濟部的曾次長還有我們環境部學務部長以及農業部的王玉珍王副司長謝謝\n有請行政單位曾次長我先請教你因為有關經濟部的議題這是COP這個第28次的第一大會裡面針對有關轉型脫離化石燃料的一個\n共識裡面有幾項要來跟經濟部討論一下因為接下來這樣的一個目標那檢視我們國內的情形到底達標或是這個難度有沒有很高剛剛其實洪森漢我也有稍微提到比如說我們這個COP28的結論裡面再生能源要成長三倍增至三倍那如果照我們現在的情形來講臺灣的這個再生能源現在是大概佔了整個總\n總發電量的8.26那如果在2030年2022年的時候那接下來我們如果要到2030年要到成長三倍我是大概估算了它的總電量的增加2%\n然後這個再生能源大概要達到24.8%左右如果這樣估算應該是合理那如果其實我們從我們2050年淨零排放的規劃裡面其實再生能源要達60到70看起來應該我們2030年這個因為我們中間沒有一個中間的目標值\n從經濟部在估算的過程中應該是循序漸進的成長嗎我們2030年要達到24.8這個目標可行嗎\n跟委員報告就是兩個部分第一個部分是您這一頁簡報裡面提到2030年24.8那個國發會的規劃是要農業部門做到27到30所以比這個量還更高那第二個部分跟委員報告就是說這次COP28它在計算的時候是算那個裝置容量\n我們的裝置容量到2030是依照我們的規劃是絕對會超過三倍的那個是我們現在規劃起來的量以2022年大概14個GIGA來做基礎的話我們到2030年會超過40個GIGA目標值\n是目標 我們會超過40個Giga所以以這一個要求來講再生能源、裝置能量成長三倍或是委員提的這一頁簡報就是發電量要比2020年成長三倍都是我們的目標我們也覺得達成的機會非常非常的高那就能源的配置上面這個再生能源是我們現在風力發電路上風電、海上風電、地面光電、屋頂光電有沒有地熱\n我們大概有三個重要的目標第一個就是加速然後這是既有的一些技術另外一個是就是要讓它更多元化除了風跟光以外地熱是我們接下來第三個最重要的再生能源當然也會配合水利\n好還有水利的部分好謝謝那接下來也要請教您一下就是這個煤電的減排的部分還是我們經濟部的議題那在這個因為我們在這次的COP28裡面也談到說應該要去發展這個所謂碳補桌副排放的\n致獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲\n淡捕捉的技術把它抓下來那我要問的是這個量應該很大吧?那未來怎麼儲存?這次跟化石燃料有關的從Face-out一路改變成純芯的位其實化石燃料也有不同的類型燃煤、燃油、天然氣三個的排碳量排碳密度是不一樣的\n那其實這一次天然氣的角色也有被特別突出當然它必須配合CCS它必須配合CCS就是碳補桌封存或是碳補桌再利用那碳補桌封存再利用這裡面算到了這個這個四千萬噸這是你們的報告裡面提到的對這是國發會當時在算整個路徑的時候估算的\n這個CCS的部分現在正在發展中我想說有幾個事情包含我們跟國科會合作的相關項目現在包含國內的地質學者因為台灣的西岸其實事實上是有一些適合的地層能夠來做那個碳的封存但是捕捉的技術\n現在要跟全世界一起合作因為碳的捕捉跟託付然後在封存的中間怎麼樣子能夠提升它的效率捕捉效率也就是說2050年我們碳捕捉的技術可能還會不斷去精進其實這幾年大家包括很多國際上很多大公司都在做這一塊\n我再問的是說這些固化的二氧化碳你捕捉下來的會變成碳酸鈣嗎那這些的儲存你剛剛也提到說西部有地方可以放因為我在估算這個量的時候其實它大概會每四年就可以在大安森林公園這個面積上堆了一座101\n所以這個量蠻大的所以去化或是你們有在思考這個問題嗎跟委員包括因為它那個地質上面的尺度因為如果可以的話我們其實應該找這一個專門學門的學者來我只是聽他們的說明以後轉述一下我怕有點不精準但它那個整個規它現在估算出來的一個量是遠高於因為這個是0.4億噸一年他們算出來的更高\n對,是比這個還要高的,而且它是打到海水底下的淹水層它有一些他們的做法,我覺得那個很多技術細節,如果在這裡講...是,了解,因為我覺得到2050年其實很多的技術還有很多課題要面對,我想我們政府都聽剛剛政策長這樣講是有在思考的,不是完全沒有去想這些事\n好謝謝我知道因為這個技術還是有很多要來討論的好謝謝那我接下來要問有關這一次在COP28裡面也提到甲烷要清零這個是要問農業部跟環境部的部分那我們知道甲烷的一個排放在我們的2023年的國家排放清澈有記載的有所在就是那個2021年我們甲烷的排放大概是445\n二氧化碳的當量這樣的一個情形其實農業的部分大概佔了188萬噸廢棄物大概佔了180萬噸接下來我們要如果到2030年要所謂的\n甲碗淨零\n跟委員報告最主要我們那個會區主要來自掩埋場掩埋有幾乎造成還有污水場對還有污水場的污泥這個部分那在掩埋場的部分目前我們的這個掩埋場有48座是封閉之後設置太陽能這大概是綜合的部分\n中央會議中央會議\n剩下百分之十我們會依上述的講法來做一個綜合跟有一個目標值我們就再去來努力嘛那農業部這邊因為農畜牧我們要養豬啦養牛啦這個好像很難你們的目標或是你們怎麼處理這個\n簡單跟委員報告我們在畜牧產業的部分除了就是說我們積極推動有情緒分尿的資源化處理所有的家庭家畜那包括就是說你們也是豔陽發酵嗎對 株枝的部分的話是而且我們已經超過250萬頭以上有在做早期的一個再利用\n是所以也是朝這個目標解決有有有好謝謝那最後我要問那個環境部來環境部給你一點時間回應這個氣候變遷績效的CCPI對我們臺灣的評價說我們告訴第七\n或是我們衛生氣體排放倒數第四再生能源比例好像也太低那能源耗用跟節能也表現極差我們有那麼差嗎?實際上這個CCPI它的方法學是完全錯誤跟整個COP28、DA大家要追求的方向完全相反\n舉個例子菲律賓跟印度既然排名第六名跟第七名他們在過去這一年碳排量都增加了60、70%而且還在增加燃煤化電廠所以這個完全是違背我們一般的認知更何況我們人均台灣只能每個人一年排2.7萬噸在2030年\n結果菲律賓、印度他可以排到七頓到八頓為什麼他們會那麼高所以我們就說這個CCPI根本是不值得去討論不用花時間去討論我們國內也有寫著發表文章來反駁這個CCPI\n雖然部長這樣講可是當國際的一個應該是NGO來對我們這樣的評價其實對我們來講還是國際形象還是有傷的啊聯合國另外有一個歐盟的氣候研究中心它的評比裡面在210個國家我們是排45名那個才是根據減碳量的表現所以我們45名在210個裡面我們是前段班的\n新冠肺炎疫苗疫苗疫苗疫苗疫苗疫苗\n國際合作發展基金會主席\n有請林維洲、林委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.189 --> 00:12.696\n主席我要先請經濟部的曾次長還有我們環境部學務部長以及農業部的王玉珍王副司長謝謝\n\n00:17.745 --> 00:31.226\n有請行政單位曾次長我先請教你因為有關經濟部的議題這是COP這個第28次的第一大會裡面針對有關轉型脫離化石燃料的一個\n\n00:32.087 --> 00:55.615\n共識裡面有幾項要來跟經濟部討論一下因為接下來這樣的一個目標那檢視我們國內的情形到底達標或是這個難度有沒有很高剛剛其實洪森漢我也有稍微提到比如說我們這個COP28的結論裡面再生能源要成長三倍增至三倍那如果照我們現在的情形來講臺灣的這個再生能源現在是大概佔了整個總\n\n01:00.097 --> 01:03.622\n總發電量的8.26那如果在2030年2022年的時候那接下來我們如果要到2030年要到成長三倍我是大概估算了它的總電量的增加2%\n\n01:16.400 --> 01:36.411\n然後這個再生能源大概要達到24.8%左右如果這樣估算應該是合理那如果其實我們從我們2050年淨零排放的規劃裡面其實再生能源要達60到70看起來應該我們2030年這個因為我們中間沒有一個中間的目標值\n\n01:38.855 --> 01:43.565\n從經濟部在估算的過程中應該是循序漸進的成長嗎我們2030年要達到24.8這個目標可行嗎\n\n01:49.386 --> 02:10.616\n跟委員報告就是兩個部分第一個部分是您這一頁簡報裡面提到2030年24.8那個國發會的規劃是要農業部門做到27到30所以比這個量還更高那第二個部分跟委員報告就是說這次COP28它在計算的時候是算那個裝置容量\n\n02:10.976 --> 02:13.957\n我們的裝置容量到2030是依照我們的規劃是絕對會超過三倍的那個是我們現在規劃起來的量以2022年大概14個GIGA來做基礎的話我們到2030年會超過40個GIGA目標值\n\n02:30.164 --> 02:51.435\n是目標我們會超過40個Giga所以以這一個要求來講再生能源、裝置能量成長三倍或是委員提的這一頁簡報就是發電量要比2020年成長三倍都是我們的目標我們也覺得達成的機會非常非常的高那就能源的配置上面這個再生能源是我們現在風力發電路上風電、海上風電、地面光電、屋頂光電有沒有地熱\n\n03:00.281 --> 03:18.881\n我們大概有三個重要的目標第一個就是加速然後這是既有的一些技術另外一個是就是要讓它更多元化除了風跟光以外地熱是我們接下來第三個最重要的再生能源當然也會配合水利\n\n03:20.057 --> 03:28.059\n好還有水利的部分好謝謝那接下來也要請教您一下就是這個煤電的減排的部分還是我們經濟部的議題那在這個因為我們在這次的COP28裡面也談到說應該要去發展這個所謂碳補桌副排放的\n\n03:39.782 --> 03:39.802\n致獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲\n\n04:03.873 --> 04:28.371\n淡捕捉的技術把它抓下來那我要問的是這個量應該很大吧?那未來怎麼儲存?這次跟化石燃料有關的從Face-out一路改變成純芯的位其實化石燃料也有不同的類型燃煤、燃油、天然氣三個的排碳量排碳密度是不一樣的\n\n04:29.071 --> 04:46.484\n那其實這一次天然氣的角色也有被特別突出當然它必須配合CCS它必須配合CCS就是碳補桌封存或是碳補桌再利用那碳補桌封存再利用這裡面算到了這個這個四千萬噸這是你們的報告裡面提到的對這是國發會當時在算整個路徑的時候估算的\n\n04:50.927 --> 05:12.539\n這個CCS的部分現在正在發展中我想說有幾個事情包含我們跟國科會合作的相關項目現在包含國內的地質學者因為台灣的西岸其實事實上是有一些適合的地層能夠來做那個碳的封存但是捕捉的技術\n\n05:13.781 --> 05:33.698\n現在要跟全世界一起合作因為碳的捕捉跟託付然後在封存的中間怎麼樣子能夠提升它的效率捕捉效率也就是說2050年我們碳捕捉的技術可能還會不斷去精進其實這幾年大家包括很多國際上很多大公司都在做這一塊\n\n05:34.338 --> 05:52.060\n我再問的是說這些固化的二氧化碳你捕捉下來的會變成碳酸鈣嗎那這些的儲存你剛剛也提到說西部有地方可以放因為我在估算這個量的時候其實它大概會每四年就可以在大安森林公園這個面積上堆了一座101\n\n05:53.542 --> 06:23.062\n所以這個量蠻大的所以去化或是你們有在思考這個問題嗎跟委員包括因為它那個地質上面的尺度因為如果可以的話我們其實應該找這一個專門學門的學者來我只是聽他們的說明以後轉述一下我怕有點不精準但它那個整個規它現在估算出來的一個量是遠高於因為這個是0.4億噸一年他們算出來的更高\n\n06:25.362 --> 06:48.427\n對,是比這個還要高的,而且它是打到海水底下的淹水層它有一些他們的做法,我覺得那個很多技術細節,如果在這裡講...是,了解,因為我覺得到2050年其實很多的技術還有很多課題要面對,我想我們政府都聽剛剛政策長這樣講是有在思考的,不是完全沒有去想這些事\n\n06:50.147 --> 07:13.770\n好謝謝我知道因為這個技術還是有很多要來討論的好謝謝那我接下來要問有關這一次在COP28裡面也提到甲烷要清零這個是要問農業部跟環境部的部分那我們知道甲烷的一個排放在我們的2023年的國家排放清澈有記載的有所在就是那個2021年我們甲烷的排放大概是445\n\n07:16.773 --> 07:24.780\n二氧化碳的當量這樣的一個情形其實農業的部分大概佔了188萬噸廢棄物大概佔了180萬噸接下來我們要如果到2030年要所謂的\n\n07:33.969 --> 07:34.169\n甲碗淨零\n\n08:05.177 --> 08:27.200\n跟委員報告最主要我們那個會區主要來自掩埋場掩埋有幾乎造成還有污水場對還有污水場的污泥這個部分那在掩埋場的部分目前我們的這個掩埋場有48座是封閉之後設置太陽能這大概是綜合的部分\n\n08:27.720 --> 08:27.860\n中央會議中央會議\n\n08:47.763 --> 09:04.735\n剩下百分之十我們會依上述的講法來做一個綜合跟有一個目標值我們就再去來努力嘛那農業部這邊因為農畜牧我們要養豬啦養牛啦這個好像很難你們的目標或是你們怎麼處理這個\n\n09:06.456 --> 09:24.901\n簡單跟委員報告我們在畜牧產業的部分除了就是說我們積極推動有情緒分尿的資源化處理所有的家庭家畜那包括就是說你們也是豔陽發酵嗎對株枝的部分的話是而且我們已經超過250萬頭以上有在做早期的一個再利用\n\n09:25.822 --> 09:35.532\n是所以也是朝這個目標解決有有有好謝謝那最後我要問那個環境部來環境部給你一點時間回應這個氣候變遷績效的CCPI對我們臺灣的評價說我們告訴第七\n\n09:44.348 --> 10:10.104\n或是我們衛生氣體排放倒數第四再生能源比例好像也太低那能源耗用跟節能也表現極差我們有那麼差嗎?實際上這個CCPI它的方法學是完全錯誤跟整個COP28、DA大家要追求的方向完全相反\n\n10:10.984 --> 10:34.256\n舉個例子菲律賓跟印度既然排名第六名跟第七名他們在過去這一年碳排量都增加了60、70%而且還在增加燃煤化電廠所以這個完全是違背我們一般的認知更何況我們人均台灣只能每個人一年排2.7萬噸在2030年\n\n10:37.117 --> 10:44.486\n結果菲律賓、印度他可以排到七頓到八頓為什麼他們會那麼高所以我們就說這個CCPI根本是不值得去討論不用花時間去討論我們國內也有寫著發表文章來反駁這個CCPI\n\n10:58.221 --> 11:25.196\n雖然部長這樣講可是當國際的一個應該是NGO來對我們這樣的評價其實對我們來講還是國際形象還是有傷的啊聯合國另外有一個歐盟的氣候研究中心它的評比裡面在210個國家我們是排45名那個才是根據減碳量的表現所以我們45名在210個裡面我們是前段班的\n\n11:26.697 --> 11:28.919\n新冠肺炎疫苗疫苗疫苗疫苗疫苗疫苗\n\n11:51.218 --> 11:52.059\n國際合作發展基金會主席\n\n12:07.710 --> 12:08.010\n有請林維洲、林委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.189,"end":12.696,"text":"主席我要先請經濟部的曾次長還有我們環境部學務部長以及農業部的王玉珍王副司長謝謝"},{"start":17.745,"end":31.226,"text":"有請行政單位曾次長我先請教你因為有關經濟部的議題這是COP這個第28次的第一大會裡面針對有關轉型脫離化石燃料的一個"},{"start":32.087,"end":55.615,"text":"共識裡面有幾項要來跟經濟部討論一下因為接下來這樣的一個目標那檢視我們國內的情形到底達標或是這個難度有沒有很高剛剛其實洪森漢我也有稍微提到比如說我們這個COP28的結論裡面再生能源要成長三倍增至三倍那如果照我們現在的情形來講臺灣的這個再生能源現在是大概佔了整個總"},{"start":60.097,"end":63.622,"text":"總發電量的8.26那如果在2030年2022年的時候那接下來我們如果要到2030年要到成長三倍我是大概估算了它的總電量的增加2%"},{"start":76.4,"end":96.411,"text":"然後這個再生能源大概要達到24.8%左右如果這樣估算應該是合理那如果其實我們從我們2050年淨零排放的規劃裡面其實再生能源要達60到70看起來應該我們2030年這個因為我們中間沒有一個中間的目標值"},{"start":98.855,"end":103.565,"text":"從經濟部在估算的過程中應該是循序漸進的成長嗎我們2030年要達到24.8這個目標可行嗎"},{"start":109.386,"end":130.616,"text":"跟委員報告就是兩個部分第一個部分是您這一頁簡報裡面提到2030年24.8那個國發會的規劃是要農業部門做到27到30所以比這個量還更高那第二個部分跟委員報告就是說這次COP28它在計算的時候是算那個裝置容量"},{"start":130.976,"end":133.957,"text":"我們的裝置容量到2030是依照我們的規劃是絕對會超過三倍的那個是我們現在規劃起來的量以2022年大概14個GIGA來做基礎的話我們到2030年會超過40個GIGA目標值"},{"start":150.164,"end":171.435,"text":"是目標 我們會超過40個Giga所以以這一個要求來講再生能源、裝置能量成長三倍或是委員提的這一頁簡報就是發電量要比2020年成長三倍都是我們的目標我們也覺得達成的機會非常非常的高那就能源的配置上面這個再生能源是我們現在風力發電路上風電、海上風電、地面光電、屋頂光電有沒有地熱"},{"start":180.281,"end":198.881,"text":"我們大概有三個重要的目標第一個就是加速然後這是既有的一些技術另外一個是就是要讓它更多元化除了風跟光以外地熱是我們接下來第三個最重要的再生能源當然也會配合水利"},{"start":200.057,"end":208.059,"text":"好還有水利的部分好謝謝那接下來也要請教您一下就是這個煤電的減排的部分還是我們經濟部的議題那在這個因為我們在這次的COP28裡面也談到說應該要去發展這個所謂碳補桌副排放的"},{"start":219.782,"end":219.802,"text":"致獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":243.873,"end":268.371,"text":"淡捕捉的技術把它抓下來那我要問的是這個量應該很大吧?那未來怎麼儲存?這次跟化石燃料有關的從Face-out一路改變成純芯的位其實化石燃料也有不同的類型燃煤、燃油、天然氣三個的排碳量排碳密度是不一樣的"},{"start":269.071,"end":286.484,"text":"那其實這一次天然氣的角色也有被特別突出當然它必須配合CCS它必須配合CCS就是碳補桌封存或是碳補桌再利用那碳補桌封存再利用這裡面算到了這個這個四千萬噸這是你們的報告裡面提到的對這是國發會當時在算整個路徑的時候估算的"},{"start":290.927,"end":312.539,"text":"這個CCS的部分現在正在發展中我想說有幾個事情包含我們跟國科會合作的相關項目現在包含國內的地質學者因為台灣的西岸其實事實上是有一些適合的地層能夠來做那個碳的封存但是捕捉的技術"},{"start":313.781,"end":333.698,"text":"現在要跟全世界一起合作因為碳的捕捉跟託付然後在封存的中間怎麼樣子能夠提升它的效率捕捉效率也就是說2050年我們碳捕捉的技術可能還會不斷去精進其實這幾年大家包括很多國際上很多大公司都在做這一塊"},{"start":334.338,"end":352.06,"text":"我再問的是說這些固化的二氧化碳你捕捉下來的會變成碳酸鈣嗎那這些的儲存你剛剛也提到說西部有地方可以放因為我在估算這個量的時候其實它大概會每四年就可以在大安森林公園這個面積上堆了一座101"},{"start":353.542,"end":383.062,"text":"所以這個量蠻大的所以去化或是你們有在思考這個問題嗎跟委員包括因為它那個地質上面的尺度因為如果可以的話我們其實應該找這一個專門學門的學者來我只是聽他們的說明以後轉述一下我怕有點不精準但它那個整個規它現在估算出來的一個量是遠高於因為這個是0.4億噸一年他們算出來的更高"},{"start":385.362,"end":408.427,"text":"對,是比這個還要高的,而且它是打到海水底下的淹水層它有一些他們的做法,我覺得那個很多技術細節,如果在這裡講...是,了解,因為我覺得到2050年其實很多的技術還有很多課題要面對,我想我們政府都聽剛剛政策長這樣講是有在思考的,不是完全沒有去想這些事"},{"start":410.147,"end":433.77,"text":"好謝謝我知道因為這個技術還是有很多要來討論的好謝謝那我接下來要問有關這一次在COP28裡面也提到甲烷要清零這個是要問農業部跟環境部的部分那我們知道甲烷的一個排放在我們的2023年的國家排放清澈有記載的有所在就是那個2021年我們甲烷的排放大概是445"},{"start":436.773,"end":444.78,"text":"二氧化碳的當量這樣的一個情形其實農業的部分大概佔了188萬噸廢棄物大概佔了180萬噸接下來我們要如果到2030年要所謂的"},{"start":453.969,"end":454.169,"text":"甲碗淨零"},{"start":485.177,"end":507.2,"text":"跟委員報告最主要我們那個會區主要來自掩埋場掩埋有幾乎造成還有污水場對還有污水場的污泥這個部分那在掩埋場的部分目前我們的這個掩埋場有48座是封閉之後設置太陽能這大概是綜合的部分"},{"start":507.72,"end":507.86,"text":"中央會議中央會議"},{"start":527.763,"end":544.735,"text":"剩下百分之十我們會依上述的講法來做一個綜合跟有一個目標值我們就再去來努力嘛那農業部這邊因為農畜牧我們要養豬啦養牛啦這個好像很難你們的目標或是你們怎麼處理這個"},{"start":546.456,"end":564.901,"text":"簡單跟委員報告我們在畜牧產業的部分除了就是說我們積極推動有情緒分尿的資源化處理所有的家庭家畜那包括就是說你們也是豔陽發酵嗎對 株枝的部分的話是而且我們已經超過250萬頭以上有在做早期的一個再利用"},{"start":565.822,"end":575.532,"text":"是所以也是朝這個目標解決有有有好謝謝那最後我要問那個環境部來環境部給你一點時間回應這個氣候變遷績效的CCPI對我們臺灣的評價說我們告訴第七"},{"start":584.348,"end":610.104,"text":"或是我們衛生氣體排放倒數第四再生能源比例好像也太低那能源耗用跟節能也表現極差我們有那麼差嗎?實際上這個CCPI它的方法學是完全錯誤跟整個COP28、DA大家要追求的方向完全相反"},{"start":610.984,"end":634.256,"text":"舉個例子菲律賓跟印度既然排名第六名跟第七名他們在過去這一年碳排量都增加了60、70%而且還在增加燃煤化電廠所以這個完全是違背我們一般的認知更何況我們人均台灣只能每個人一年排2.7萬噸在2030年"},{"start":637.117,"end":644.486,"text":"結果菲律賓、印度他可以排到七頓到八頓為什麼他們會那麼高所以我們就說這個CCPI根本是不值得去討論不用花時間去討論我們國內也有寫著發表文章來反駁這個CCPI"},{"start":658.221,"end":685.196,"text":"雖然部長這樣講可是當國際的一個應該是NGO來對我們這樣的評價其實對我們來講還是國際形象還是有傷的啊聯合國另外有一個歐盟的氣候研究中心它的評比裡面在210個國家我們是排45名那個才是根據減碳量的表現所以我們45名在210個裡面我們是前段班的"},{"start":686.697,"end":688.919,"text":"新冠肺炎疫苗疫苗疫苗疫苗疫苗疫苗"},{"start":711.218,"end":712.059,"text":"國際合作發展基金會主席"},{"start":727.71,"end":728.01,"text":"有請林維洲、林委員"}]}}}}