{"id":149030,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149030","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c3c100a9878a076fcca8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a0322165cd330bf6083615ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳欣盈","委員發言時間":"10:55:45 - 11:11:10","影片長度":"00:15:25","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-15"},"date":"2023-12-14","duration":925,"end_time":"2023-12-14T11:11:10+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-14T10:55:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":909,"blocks":[["吳委員欣盈：（10時55分）謝謝，有請部長及外交部李次長。"],["主席：請部長及次長。"],["薛部長富盛：吳召委好。"],["吳委員欣盈：謝謝兩位。剛剛聽到薛部長的報告是以專業、務實及有貢獻來報告這次COP的出國，可是我個人感覺是一個mix picture，然後我覺得是見仁見智，譬如這七年臺灣的碳使用率增加，天然氣也是增加，當然以整個經濟的成長或是從百分比來看的話，不同角度來看這個東西就會有不同的解答。","其實我知道這次外交部有安排一些會議，這裡有一些照片是外交部及立法院安排的，有一些是我私人的會議，譬如在右上方這位Michael Sheren，就是我在FB上面有PO的綠色金融大師，我本來是想在藍區跟他見面，可是因為臨時我們四位立法委員全部都沒辦法進去，所以我就在外面這個公共空間跟他喝杯咖啡，然後把我本來想在藍區跟他討論的事情變成在外面討論。他之前在聯合國開發計畫署（UNDP）擔任永續金融中心的高級顧問，在2016年到2019年期間，他也擔任G20永續金融研究小組的主席，同時他在2016年的時候幫中國銀行在英國證交所發行他們第一個Green Bond，所以他的經驗非常豐富，他有很多Public-Private Partnership的經驗。","接下來我有一個影片要快速跟大家分享一下。","（播放影片）"],["吳委員欣盈：謝謝。所以我想展示的是，其實臺灣在外交困境當中是非常艱難的，事實上我有被邀請參加兩場Parliamentary Pavilion，就是週一上午的時候跟週二下午的時候，我都有作為與談人，可是最後因為沒有拿到藍區的證件，我也沒有辦法進去，相當地可惜。","之後星期四的時候，我們去COP，但是星期四COP剛好休會，所以我就自己跨了邊界去了阿布達比。我也想跟兩位分享，其實我是被邀請去做與談人，這次有辦法進去，因為我是用民間的名義進去的，這是國際智庫Milken研究院，中間這位是Michael Milken本人，這是第5屆中東及非洲國家召開峰會，關心未來再生能源用金融帶動產業轉型，Milken專注在4個主軸：教育、健康、新創企業（entrepreneurship）還有金融的部分。","同時，我要提到，其實這次過去阿布達比邊界的時候也發現到，阿布達比現在有全世界最大的太陽能板的面積，它是跟中國合作的，這也代表石油國家可以重新再做能源轉型，它本身就有油，同時空間大、太陽多、風也多，要做轉型是非常有利基點的。這也呼應了我覺得臺灣應該要勇敢面對，如果我們真的要變成能源堅韌國家的話，我們其實選擇是不多的，因為我們是一個小島國，也沒有很多的天然資源，不像中東。這次我們私下跟一些歐洲國家的議員交流，像盧森堡，他們覺得他們不支持核能，可是他們是跟邊界的比利時買核能，對不對？這些國家雖然不支持核能、不簽署這些合約，不代表他們沒有在用核能的電。可是臺灣就是一個鎖國，我們要在這個情況之下怎麼樣去突破這個困境？我覺得不考慮啟動核能的話，是不務實的。","再來，我想要分享的是我們實際上面對外交的困境。這個是我從CSIS智庫2020年報告後面的截圖，上面列出臺灣撤出聯合國之後現在所有的observing或是full member的membership，裡頭重點也有講到ADB，就是中間第二排的下面，到時候可以提供你們參考。","對我而言，我覺得我們要更務實地面對臺灣的外交困境。世界這麼大，我們常常講我們有13個邦交國，可是事實上這13個邦交國所占的地面面積是全球的0.1%，以全球的國家人口來看，這250萬人是全世界的0.3%人口面積而已，所以臺灣在這個情況之下，我們要站在什麼樣的立場？不只是用政府機關，像這次我們4位委員都沒有辦法進入藍區的場……"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["吳委員欣盈：部長，你也沒辦法進去，對不對？我們要怎麼樣能發揮其他我看到這些NGO的membership？為什麼我突然講到Asian Development Bank，就是亞洲開發銀行呢？接下來我想要分享，我個人的看法是，如果今天臺灣必須要走到淨零碳排的話，我們的金融產業必須要跟國際接軌，然後我們所有官方的金融機構必須官民一把尺，才能讓我們跟國際接軌，同時能淨零碳排、淨零轉型，我們的金融產業必須要走到國際化。你可以看到，這次像COP有loss and damage fund，這個loss and damage fund裡頭對我而言，其實叫做氣候金融的二軌外交。譬如像氣候金融投資、主權基金等等，這些都是可以互相彼此投資的。譬如這次我有跟我們的邦交國諾魯做交流，對不對？諾魯這個國家還比帛琉更小，我問他們現在淨零的方向是如何、能源用得怎麼樣，他們說他們是用柴油（diesel）為主，島上只要裝兩個區塊的太陽能板，馬上50%就可以走Go Clean。OK！我說：「請問一下你的solar panel誰幫你裝？」他說中國幫他裝的，然後同時他說最近要蓋個碼頭，是中國幫他做的；那我說：「你不是我們臺灣的邦交國嗎？你是邦交國，為什麼這個案子是給中國做？」他說中國就是Asian Development Bank去做這個談判的。所以我的意思就是說其實透過ADB（亞洲開發銀行），我們臺灣是full membership，我們在這一部分打輸的話，我覺得是相當可惜的。而且我要提到，您看外交部現在這個報告上有講到：有充分發揮外交的效益。我會覺得，也提供你們參考，很多國家像澳洲、西班牙、義大利跟加拿大，他們的MOFA跟MOE是併在一起的，它的名字叫做Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade，我真的覺得這是個非常重要的議題，可以呼應我們的外交跟經濟是不是可以一起並肩作戰？這樣子的話才不會有像我們的邦交國諾魯這個案子，現在我們有ADB的full membership，反而被中國把這個案子簽走。"],["李次長淳：委員，可以讓我簡單回答一下嗎？ADB的案子是透過招標、有廠商，所以是中國廠商得標，不是中國去協助諾魯。"],["吳委員欣盈：是，我知道。"],["李次長淳：中國廠商為什麼會得標？事實上這邊也講到CABEI，其實中國廠商在全世界各地都用低價的方式去競標，它背後有大量的政府或其他的補貼，所以很多的國家都在抱怨說這些投標機制可能要做修改，只是跟委員補充，臺灣當然會非常積極的運用ADB，我們是以一個full membership的身分來充分發揮，我們也用很多機制來鼓勵我們的業者去參加ADB的標案，只是在剛才您提到這個特定的標案上面，最終是中國的企業得標，ADB是甲方，它來招標，得標的企業是中國，不是中國在協助諾魯。"],["吳委員欣盈：我現在只是跟外交部及我們行政單位講，要作戰的時候，尤其我們這麼多委員出現，應該是要走大門、走正路的，OK！我知道我們臺灣的外交處境是非常有困境的，這次我們這樣子去……"],["李次長淳：委員，我們都希望所有人都可以走大門、走正路。"],["吳委員欣盈：我覺得我很對不起納稅人，我覺得我沒有發揮到我們該發揮到的效應，如果真的要做立院外交的話，我們等立法院院長請這些國際人員來就好了，舉例來講，我遇到好幾個這些跟我們吃早飯的人，他們的牌子上都寫「Party Overflow」，那什麼意思？Party不是開Party的Party，Party是一個團體的意思。那些委員告訴我「Party Overflow」是說不能發言的委員才在飯店外面跟我們吃早飯……"],["李次長淳：報告委員，這個情況在COP28以前一直存在，我們會持續跟立法院一起來努力。這次有一些特殊狀況，我相信委員也很清楚。"],["吳委員欣盈：是，所以我的意思是說剛剛那些組織有full membership，我們應該積極的把相關的窗口，不管是經濟部、財政部或什麼的，對剛剛那些相關有full member的組織能夠接上對口來發揮真正的功能，對不對？"],["李次長淳：當然、當然。"],["吳委員欣盈：然後我們比較不是正式會員的一些組織，就要走正的路，像這次這些NPO全部都是先認同一個中國的，對不對？我們用這些證件進去的話，我們也認同一個中國嗎？"],["李次長淳：委員，我們也非常感謝我們立法院在國會外交上來協助一起推動，我們當然希望所有人都可以走大門、走正路，但是對於國際情勢，我們也希望大家一起來配合。"],["吳委員欣盈：當時我在現場的時候，我們要拿之前你們給我們的證件進去的時候，當場就有聯合國的人在現場跟我講，我聽到啦！他就跟你們講說：「You know you betrayed my trust. This is not how was supposed to be. You shouldn't be here」就是你們不應該在這邊。"],["李次長淳：委員也很清楚，您出發前我們有跟您溝通兩次，今年情況比較特殊一點，我相信您也知道特殊的地方在什麼地方。"],["吳委員欣盈：沒有什麼特殊的地方……"],["李次長淳：所以我們大家要一起努力。"],["吳委員欣盈：你們照的方式就是，你們要的話，就是要用正當的方式跟國際上做交流……"],["李次長淳：當然、當然。"],["吳委員欣盈：否則你會讓所有想幫助我們的人都很難做事情，謝謝你。"],["李次長淳：沒錯。"],["吳委員欣盈：然後，最後，不好意思，我要講最後一頁，就是關於環境部的部分，我之前跟部長追過，就是環境部的十年碳定價路徑圖，因為其實我之前也多次呼籲有關碳費、碳稅、碳抵換交易、碳交換的平臺這四種到底要怎麼樣陸續有配套措施？因為這不只是對產業，還有臺灣碳排金融接軌的國際性是非常重要的，因為很多產業和業界都不瞭解碳權到底要不要買，然後要買多少，未來這個東西能不能成為金融商品，有沒有一些其他碳定價的機制存在。產業轉型需要很多年的時間，不能一次馬上到位，如果整個架構沒有提出來的話，產業很難做一些中長期的規劃，所以我想瞭解你們什麼時候可以提出十年路徑圖？上次我跟部長詢問過，看看次長今天有什麼樣的想法，可以給我承諾嗎？什麼時候可以做出來？"],["施次長文真：跟委員報告，這個部分之前也有委員提到，我們應該可以在3個月內，因為最主要還是要看政府這一端要做的中長期規劃，目前是先以碳價，也就是收碳費為主，我們會依委員的指示在3個月內確實……"],["吳委員欣盈：你的意思是3個月只能做碳費……"],["施次長文真：沒有，3個月內我們會把十年整體的路徑圖提出來跟委員做報告。"],["吳委員欣盈：OK！只要有時間出來，謝謝。"],["主席（吳委員欣盈）：不好意思！我釐清一下，薛部長離席的原因是因為他要去做預算討論協商，剛剛是由施次長來代理質詢。","請陳委員瑩發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-15","speakers":["吳欣盈","洪申翰","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","林為洲","邱泰源","黃秀芳","陳椒華","徐志榮","張育美","陳瑩","王婉諭","賴惠員","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":393,"meetingDate":["2023-12-14"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委\n員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候\n變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130201_00006"}},"transcript":{"id":"149030","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149030","tool":"pyannote","id":"149030-pyannote"},"job_id":"Tqm7N4SPM9f4ZjN9","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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\"end\": 916.779, \"score\": 0.538}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 916.779, \"end\": 916.799, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"吳\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 920.722, \"end\": 921.507, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 921.507, \"end\": 921.728, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 921.728, \"end\": 921.809, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 921.809, \"end\": 921.93, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"穎\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 921.93, \"end\": 921.95, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:13,463 --> 00:00:20,291\n謝謝有請部長還有外交理事長、學部長跟理事長部長還次長\n\n2\n00:00:26,786 --> 00:00:47,418\n謝謝兩位我剛剛其實剛聽到這個薛部長有報告就是說以專業務實跟有貢獻來報告這次COP的出國那可是我覺得我個人感覺是一個mixedpicture然後我覺得是見仁見智啦比如說像這七年來臺灣的這個探用使用率增加那\n\n3\n00:00:49,778 --> 00:01:08,622\n自然天然氣增加以整個經濟成長或百分比不同的角度看這個東西會有不同的解答我抱著投影還沒出來我知道外交部這次有安排一些會議比如說\n\n4\n00:01:15,134 --> 00:01:43,098\n在就是說一些會議那像這裡頭有些照片是跟外交部這邊立法院安排的那有一些是我自己私人的一些會議那像比如說在右上方這位跟MichaelSharon就是我FB有PO的這個綠色金融大使我本來是在藍區跟他見面可是因為臨時我們沒有辦法立法委員全部四位都沒辦法進去嘛所以我就是在外面的這個\n\n5\n00:01:43,778 --> 00:02:03,635\n公共空間跟他喝杯咖啡然後把我本來在藍區想跟他討論的事情在外面討論那他之前在聯合國從開發計畫的UNDP裡頭是擔任永續金融中心的這個高級顧問在2016年到2019年期間他也擔任G20的永續金融研究小組的主席\n\n6\n00:02:07,732 --> 00:02:27,777\n同時在2016年的時候幫中國銀行在英國的證交所發他們第一個GreenBond經驗非常豐富他有很多一些PrivatePublicPartnership的一些經驗接下來我有一個影片跟大家快速的分享一下\n\n7\n00:02:36,493 --> 00:03:02,331\n一些建築物等等的大家可以看到就說像這COP的現場比較明顯的一些建築物等等的我們就被交代要非常低調要到大家回台北的時候才能PO比較辨識度高的COP地標在這邊反而用民間的企業或是基金會進來相對來講算榮譽\n\n8\n00:03:18,038 --> 00:03:21,541\n這是在阿布達底的部分可是其他那些都在COP\n\n9\n00:03:25,009 --> 00:03:50,658\n今天就看到了Fusion跟Fission的公司Fusion是台美合作的公司叫做AlphaRing它是在Monterey,California跟在台北這邊合作的公司Fusion呢是唯一真的是ZeroWaste的部分因為其實我現在講很多綠能的像Solar跟Wind的話它事實上還是有一些TreatmentProblems這個部分但還是在研究當中能不能真的是\n\n10\n00:03:55,079 --> 00:04:17,224\n現場的車子都是電動車不同的國家也有他們一些各國管那裡頭還有分藍區跟綠區藍區的話就是各國領袖跟智庫的人員可以參加一般在做一些keydecisionmaker綠區的話呢就是很多的一些新創跟綠能相關的產業或是一些綠色金融很好的一些典範呢也在這邊跟大家可以分享\n\n11\n00:04:20,206 --> 00:04:35,679\n所以我想展示就是說其實在臺灣的這個外交困境當中呢是非常艱難的然後想要解釋下一個我也麻煩你就是說其實事實上呢我其實有被邀請兩場在所謂的ParliamentaryPavilion\n\n12\n00:04:36,710 --> 00:04:52,528\n上午的時候跟週二下午的時候都有作為與談人可是因為就是沒有最後拿到藍區的這個證件呢我也沒有辦法進去就相當的可惜那之後呢其實星期四的時候因為我們去COP那COP是星期四剛好休會\n\n13\n00:04:53,289 --> 00:05:13,427\n所以我就自己跑跨了邊界去了阿布達比然後這時候也想跟兩位分享就是說其實我是被邀請也是去做與談人那這次有辦法進去因為我是用民間的名義進去的這是國際智庫米爾肯研究院然後中間這位是MikeMilken本人\n\n14\n00:05:16,090 --> 00:05:27,060\n第五屆中東及非洲國家開放會關心未來再生能源用金融帶動產業轉型Milken專注四個主軸教育、健康、新創企業、金融\n\n15\n00:05:36,759 --> 00:05:56,100\n同時我要提到其實這次過去阿布達比邊界的時候你也發現到說阿布達比現在是有全世界最大的太陽能板的面積它是跟中國做合作的那這也代表就是說石油的國家它可以重新再做能源轉型\n\n16\n00:05:58,522 --> 00:06:18,777\n同時它現在空間大、太陽多、風也多它其實要整個做這個轉型是非常有利基點的那這也呼應就是說其實我覺得臺灣必須要勇敢面對就是說如果真的我們要變成一個能源堅韌的國家的話我們其實選擇是不多的因為我們是一個小島國\n\n17\n00:06:19,758 --> 00:06:43,706\n然後我們也沒有很多的天然的資源不像中東的話連這次我們私下跟一些歐洲的國家的議員交流的話像盧森堡他們覺得他們不支持核能可是他們是跟邊界的比利時買核能啊對不對那這些國家邊界他們雖然不支持核能不簽署這些合約不代表說他們沒有在用核能的電\n\n18\n00:06:44,246 --> 00:07:00,783\n可是臺灣就是一個鎖國我們要在這個情況之下怎麼樣去突破這個困境我覺得不考慮啟動核能的話是不務實的那再來就是想要分享就是說下一位麻煩William\n\n19\n00:07:01,776 --> 00:07:16,156\n就是說我們實際上面對外交的這個困境那這個是我從這個CSIS一個智庫它2020年的報告後面的這個截圖就是這列出所有現在臺灣撤出聯合國之後所有的\n\n20\n00:07:16,496 --> 00:07:21,717\n全體合作發展基金會及全體合作發展基金會及全體合作發展基金會及全體合作發展基金會及全體合作\n\n21\n00:07:42,503 --> 00:08:09,725\n國家人口250萬人是全世界的0.3人口的面積而已所以是台灣在這個情況之下我們要什麼樣的立場不只是用政府機關因為這個原因這次我們四個委員都沒有辦法進藍區的場部長進你也沒辦法進去嘛對不對那我們要怎麼樣能發揮其他我看到這些NGO的一些membership為什麼我突然講到這個AsianDevelopmentBank就是亞洲開發銀行呢就接下來想要分享就是說\n\n22\n00:08:10,546 --> 00:08:27,004\n我個人的看法是如果今天台灣必須要走到淨零碳排的話我們的金融產業必須要跟國際接軌然後呢我們的所有的官方的金融機構必須官民一把尺才能讓我們跟國際接軌同時能淨零碳排淨零轉型\n\n23\n00:08:27,885 --> 00:08:54,087\n我們的金融產業必須要走到國際化那你可以看就是說這次像COP有這個所謂的LossandDamageFund那這LossandDamageFund裡頭呢其實就是所謂的對我而言是一個叫做氣候二軌的這個氣候金融的二軌外交那譬如說這個像譬如說氣候金融投資主權基金等等的這都是可以互相彼此投資的不然您先領洗我知道對去看省預算好謝謝對那\n\n24\n00:08:56,937 --> 00:09:17,566\n比如說這次我有跟這個諾魯諾魯我們一個邦交國做交流諾魯他的國家還比帛琉更小我問他說你們現在的這個淨零的方向是如何你們現在能源用的怎麼樣他說他們是用Diesel就用柴油為主他說我們只要裝兩個區塊我們島上只要裝兩個區塊的太陽能板我馬上50%就可以goclean那我說那請問一下你的這個\n\n25\n00:09:24,829 --> 00:09:39,697\n你這個solarpanel誰幫你裝他說中國幫他裝的然後同時他說最近要蓋個碼頭是中國幫他做的那我說欸納魯你不是我們台灣的邦交國嗎那你是邦交國為什麼這個案子是給這個中國做他說中國就是AsianDevelopmentBank去做這個談判的\n\n26\n00:09:41,138 --> 00:10:03,175\n所以我的意思就是說其實透過這個ADB亞洲開發銀行這是我們台灣是fullmembership的我們在這一場這樣這部分打輸的話我覺得是相當的可惜的而且要提到說您看您外交部現在這個報告上面也有講就是說你們外交部的報告對COP說有充分發揮外交的效益我會覺得是說以提供你們參考\n\n27\n00:10:04,036 --> 00:10:24,170\n向很多國家澳洲、西班牙、意大利跟加拿大他們的MOFA跟MOE是併在一起的他們的名字叫做DepartmentofForeignAffairsandTrade我真的非常的覺得是個非常重要的議題所以可以呼應說我們的外交跟經濟是不是可以一起並肩作戰而這樣子的話才不會讓我們的這個邦交國像納魯\n\n28\n00:10:25,811 --> 00:10:28,693\n主要主要主要主要主要主要主要\n\n29\n00:10:44,825 --> 00:10:59,097\n中國廠商為什麼會得標?事實上這邊也講到Kathy其實中國廠商他在全世界各地都用低價的方式去競標那他有背後有大量的政府或其他的補貼所以很多的國家都在抱怨說這些投標機制可能要做修改\n\n30\n00:10:59,797 --> 00:11:21,339\n只是跟委員補充,ATB台灣當然會非常積極的運用我們是一個FullMembership的身份來充分的發揮我們也用很多機制來鼓勵我們的業者去參加ATB的標案那只是說在剛才您提到這個特定的標案上面,最終是中國的企業得標ATB是甲方,他來招標,然後得標的企業是中國,不是中國在協助農業\n\n31\n00:11:22,981 --> 00:11:36,658\n跟外交部跟我們行政單位是講說要作戰的時候尤其我們這麼多委員出現我們是應該是走大門走正路的我知道我們台灣的外交處境是非常有困境的這次我們這樣子去\n\n32\n00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:59,703\n我覺得我很對不起納稅人我覺得我沒有發揮到我們該發揮到的效應如果真的要做立院的外交的話我們等立法院的院長請這些國際的人員來就好了舉例講好幾個我遇到這些跟我們後來吃飯、找飯的人他們的牌子都寫到PartyOverflow我還在玩牌子上也寫到PartyOverflow這是什麼意思\n\n33\n00:12:00,123 --> 00:12:19,332\nPARTY不是開PARTY的PARTY那PARTY是一個團體的意思PARTYOVERFLOW那些委員告訴我是說是不能發言的委員才跟我們來吃早飯在飯店外面跟我們吃早飯的這個情況在COP28以前一直存在我們會持續跟立法院一起來努力這一次有一些特殊狀況我相信委員很清楚有FULLMEMBERSHIP剛剛那些組織我們應該積極地把相關的窗口不管是經濟部、財政部或什麼的相關剛剛那些\n\n34\n00:12:27,996 --> 00:12:50,980\n全體組織的做上對口來發揮真正的功能然後一些比較我們不是正式的會員的就要走正的路像這次這些NPO全部都是簽認騰一個中國的啊我們非常感謝我們立法院在國會外交的協助一起推動我們當然希望所有人都可以走大門走正路\n\n35\n00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:58,067\n當時我在現場的時候我們拿到我們之前你給我們的證件要進去的時候當場就有聯合國人在我現場跟我講我聽到了就跟你們講說youbetrayedmytrust,thisisnothowit'ssupposedtobe,youshouldn'tbehere\n\n36\n00:13:10,948 --> 00:13:30,436\n委員其實在委員很清楚您出發前我們兩次有跟您溝通今年情況比較特殊一點那我相信您也知道特殊的地方是什麼地方沒有什麼特殊的地方所以我們大家要一起努力你們要的話就是要用正當的方式跟國際上做交流否則這樣你會讓所有想幫助我們都很難做的事情謝謝你\n\n37\n00:13:31,716 --> 00:13:35,898\n然後最後不好意思我要講的最後一頁就是不好意思主席就是那個關於這個這個是環境部的部分環境部的話就是說我想要想要追就是說因為不好意思我之前跟部長是追過就是這個10年的這個環境部的這個途徑藍圖\n\n38\n00:13:50,103 --> 00:14:01,814\n因為其實我之前多次也呼籲就是說碳費、碳稅、碳底換的交易、碳交放的平台這四種到底要陸續怎麼樣有些配套措施因為這不只是對產業還有這個臺灣這個金融接軌金融這個\n\n39\n00:14:06,378 --> 00:14:26,742\n碳排金融接軌的國際性是非常重要的因為很多產業業界都不了解就是說碳權到底是要不要買然後要買多少然後未來這東西可能成為金融商品然後有沒有一些其他碳定價的機制在那產業要轉型的話是需要很多年的時間不能一次馬上到位\n\n40\n00:14:27,102 --> 00:14:41,251\n那如果整個架構沒有提出來的話這樣子產業很難做一些中長期的規劃所以想了解說你們什麼時候可以做出一個十年的路徑圖上次我跟部長問過那看看市長今天有什麼樣的想法可以給我承諾嗎什麼時候可以做出來跟委員報告我們之前這個有跟也是委員有提到說我們應該可以在一個\n\n41\n00:14:52,580 --> 00:15:16,799\n三個月內在三個月內因為最主要還是要看政府這一段我們要做中長期的規劃我們先在目前是先以碳價就是這個收碳費為主那這個三個月內我們做的規劃確實會依委員的指示就是在十年內所以你是說只有三個月能做碳費沒有沒有我說三個月內我們會把十年的路徑圖跟委員做報告就是整體的好再有時間出來謝謝\n\n42\n00:15:20,722 --> 00:15:21,950\n謝謝吳委員下一位陳穎委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n13463\t20291\t謝謝有請部長還有外交理事長、學部長跟理事長部長還次長\n26786\t47418\t謝謝兩位我剛剛其實剛聽到這個薛部長有報告就是說以專業務實跟有貢獻來報告這次COP的出國那可是我覺得我個人感覺是一個mixed picture然後我覺得是見仁見智啦比如說像這七年來臺灣的這個探用使用率增加那\n49778\t68622\t自然天然氣增加以整個經濟成長或百分比不同的角度看這個東西會有不同的解答我抱著投影還沒出來我知道外交部這次有安排一些會議比如說\n75134\t103098\t在就是說一些會議那像這裡頭有些照片是跟外交部這邊立法院安排的那有一些是我自己私人的一些會議那像比如說在右上方這位跟Michael Sharon就是我FB有PO的這個綠色金融大使我本來是在藍區跟他見面可是因為臨時我們沒有辦法立法委員全部四位都沒辦法進去嘛所以我就是在外面的這個\n103778\t123635\t公共空間跟他喝杯咖啡然後把我本來在藍區想跟他討論的事情在外面討論那他之前在聯合國從開發計畫的UNDP裡頭是擔任永續金融中心的這個高級顧問在2016年到2019年期間他也擔任G20的永續金融研究小組的主席\n127732\t147777\t同時在2016年的時候幫中國銀行在英國的證交所發他們第一個Green Bond經驗非常豐富他有很多一些Private Public Partnership的一些經驗接下來我有一個影片跟大家快速的分享一下\n156493\t182331\t一些建築物等等的大家可以看到就說像這COP的現場比較明顯的一些建築物等等的我們就被交代要非常低調要到大家回台北的時候才能PO比較辨識度高的COP地標在這邊反而用民間的企業或是基金會進來相對來講算榮譽\n198038\t201541\t這是在阿布達底的部分可是其他那些都在COP\n205009\t230658\t今天就看到了Fusion跟Fission的公司Fusion是台美合作的公司叫做Alpha Ring它是在Monterey, California跟在台北這邊合作的公司Fusion呢是唯一真的是Zero Waste的部分因為其實我現在講很多綠能的像Solar跟Wind的話它事實上還是有一些Treatment Problems這個部分但還是在研究當中能不能真的是\n235079\t257224\t現場的車子都是電動車不同的國家也有他們一些各國管那裡頭還有分藍區跟綠區藍區的話就是各國領袖跟智庫的人員可以參加一般在做一些key decision maker綠區的話呢就是很多的一些新創跟綠能相關的產業或是一些綠色金融很好的一些典範呢也在這邊跟大家可以分享\n260206\t275679\t所以我想展示就是說其實在臺灣的這個外交困境當中呢是非常艱難的然後想要解釋下一個我也麻煩你就是說其實事實上呢我其實有被邀請兩場在所謂的Parliamentary Pavilion\n276710\t292528\t上午的時候跟週二下午的時候都有作為與談人可是因為就是沒有最後拿到藍區的這個證件呢我也沒有辦法進去就相當的可惜那之後呢其實星期四的時候因為我們去COP那COP是星期四剛好休會\n293289\t313427\t所以我就自己跑跨了邊界去了阿布達比然後這時候也想跟兩位分享就是說其實我是被邀請也是去做與談人那這次有辦法進去因為我是用民間的名義進去的這是國際智庫米爾肯研究院然後中間這位是Mike Milken本人\n316090\t327060\t第五屆中東及非洲國家開放會關心未來再生能源用金融帶動產業轉型Milken專注四個主軸教育、健康、新創企業、金融\n336759\t356100\t同時我要提到其實這次過去阿布達比邊界的時候你也發現到說阿布達比現在是有全世界最大的太陽能板的面積它是跟中國做合作的那這也代表就是說石油的國家它可以重新再做能源轉型\n358522\t378777\t同時它現在空間大、太陽多、風也多它其實要整個做這個轉型是非常有利基點的那這也呼應就是說其實我覺得臺灣必須要勇敢面對就是說如果真的我們要變成一個能源堅韌的國家的話我們其實選擇是不多的因為我們是一個小島國\n379758\t403706\t然後我們也沒有很多的天然的資源不像中東的話連這次我們私下跟一些歐洲的國家的議員交流的話像盧森堡他們覺得他們不支持核能可是他們是跟邊界的比利時買核能啊對不對那這些國家邊界他們雖然不支持核能不簽署這些合約不代表說他們沒有在用核能的電\n404246\t420783\t可是臺灣就是一個鎖國我們要在這個情況之下怎麼樣去突破這個困境我覺得不考慮啟動核能的話是不務實的那再來就是想要分享就是說下一位麻煩William\n421776\t436156\t就是說我們實際上面對外交的這個困境那這個是我從這個CSIS一個智庫它2020年的報告後面的這個截圖就是這列出所有現在臺灣撤出聯合國之後所有的\n436496\t441717\t全體合作發展基金會及全體合作發展基金會及全體合作發展基金會及全體合作發展基金會及全體合作\n462503\t489725\t國家人口250萬人是全世界的0.3人口的面積而已所以是台灣在這個情況之下我們要什麼樣的立場不只是用政府機關因為這個原因這次我們四個委員都沒有辦法進藍區的場部長進你也沒辦法進去嘛 對不對那我們要怎麼樣能發揮其他我看到這些NGO的一些membership為什麼我突然講到這個Asian Development Bank就是亞洲開發銀行呢就接下來想要分享就是說\n490546\t507004\t我個人的看法是如果今天台灣必須要走到淨零碳排的話我們的金融產業必須要跟國際接軌然後呢我們的所有的官方的金融機構必須官民一把尺才能讓我們跟國際接軌同時能淨零碳排淨零轉型\n507885\t534087\t我們的金融產業必須要走到國際化那你可以看就是說這次像COP有這個所謂的Loss and Damage Fund那這Loss and Damage Fund裡頭呢其實就是所謂的對我而言是一個叫做氣候二軌的這個氣候金融的二軌外交那譬如說這個像譬如說氣候金融投資主權基金等等的這都是可以互相彼此投資的不然您先領洗我知道對去看省預算好謝謝對那\n536937\t557566\t比如說這次我有跟這個諾魯諾魯我們一個邦交國做交流諾魯他的國家還比帛琉更小我問他說你們現在的這個淨零的方向是如何你們現在能源用的怎麼樣他說他們是用Diesel就用柴油為主他說我們只要裝兩個區塊我們島上只要裝兩個區塊的太陽能板我馬上50%就可以go clean那我說那請問一下你的這個\n564829\t579697\t你這個solar panel誰幫你裝他說中國幫他裝的然後同時他說最近要蓋個碼頭是中國幫他做的那我說欸納魯你不是我們台灣的邦交國嗎那你是邦交國為什麼這個案子是給這個中國做他說中國就是Asian Development Bank去做這個談判的\n581138\t603175\t所以我的意思就是說其實透過這個ADB亞洲開發銀行這是我們台灣是full membership的我們在這一場這樣這部分打輸的話我覺得是相當的可惜的而且要提到說您看您外交部現在這個報告上面也有講就是說你們外交部的報告對COP說有充分發揮外交的效益我會覺得是說以提供你們參考\n604036\t624170\t向很多國家澳洲、西班牙、意大利跟加拿大他們的MOFA跟MOE是併在一起的他們的名字叫做Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade我真的非常的覺得是個非常重要的議題所以可以呼應說我們的外交跟經濟是不是可以一起並肩作戰而這樣子的話才不會讓我們的這個邦交國像納魯\n625811\t628693\t主要主要主要主要主要主要主要\n644825\t659097\t中國廠商為什麼會得標?事實上這邊也講到Kathy其實中國廠商他在全世界各地都用低價的方式去競標那他有背後有大量的政府或其他的補貼所以很多的國家都在抱怨說這些投標機制可能要做修改\n659797\t681339\t只是跟委員補充,ATB台灣當然會非常積極的運用我們是一個Full Membership的身份來充分的發揮我們也用很多機制來鼓勵我們的業者去參加ATB的標案那只是說在剛才您提到這個特定的標案上面,最終是中國的企業得標ATB是甲方,他來招標,然後得標的企業是中國,不是中國在協助農業\n682981\t696658\t跟外交部跟我們行政單位是講說要作戰的時候尤其我們這麼多委員出現我們是應該是走大門走正路的我知道我們台灣的外交處境是非常有困境的這次我們這樣子去\n698760\t719703\t我覺得我很對不起納稅人我覺得我沒有發揮到我們該發揮到的效應如果真的要做立院的外交的話我們等立法院的院長請這些國際的人員來就好了舉例講好幾個我遇到這些跟我們後來吃飯、找飯的人他們的牌子都寫到Party Overflow我還在玩牌子上也寫到Party Overflow這是什麼意思\n720123\t739332\tPARTY不是開PARTY的PARTY那PARTY是一個團體的意思PARTY OVERFLOW那些委員告訴我是說是不能發言的委員才跟我們來吃早飯在飯店外面跟我們吃早飯的這個情況在COP28以前一直存在我們會持續跟立法院一起來努力這一次有一些特殊狀況我相信委員很清楚有FULL MEMBERSHIP剛剛那些組織我們應該積極地把相關的窗口不管是經濟部、財政部或什麼的相關剛剛那些\n747996\t770980\t全體組織的做上對口來發揮真正的功能然後一些比較我們不是正式的會員的就要走正的路像這次這些NPO全部都是簽認騰一個中國的啊我們非常感謝我們立法院在國會外交的協助一起推動我們當然希望所有人都可以走大門走正路\n771440\t778067\t當時我在現場的時候我們拿到我們之前你給我們的證件要進去的時候當場就有聯合國人在我現場跟我講我聽到了就跟你們講說you betrayed my trust, this is not how it's supposed to be, you shouldn't be here\n790948\t810436\t委員其實在委員很清楚您出發前我們兩次有跟您溝通今年情況比較特殊一點那我相信您也知道特殊的地方是什麼地方沒有什麼特殊的地方所以我們大家要一起努力你們要的話就是要用正當的方式跟國際上做交流否則這樣你會讓所有想幫助我們都很難做的事情謝謝你\n811716\t815898\t然後最後不好意思我要講的最後一頁就是不好意思主席就是那個關於這個這個是環境部的部分環境部的話就是說我想要想要追就是說因為不好意思我之前跟部長是追過就是這個10年的這個環境部的這個途徑藍圖\n830103\t841814\t因為其實我之前多次也呼籲就是說碳費、碳稅、碳底換的交易、碳交放的平台這四種到底要陸續怎麼樣有些配套措施因為這不只是對產業還有這個臺灣這個金融接軌金融這個\n846378\t866742\t碳排金融接軌的國際性是非常重要的因為很多產業業界都不了解就是說碳權到底是要不要買然後要買多少然後未來這東西可能成為金融商品然後有沒有一些其他碳定價的機制在那產業要轉型的話是需要很多年的時間不能一次馬上到位\n867102\t881251\t那如果整個架構沒有提出來的話這樣子產業很難做一些中長期的規劃所以想了解說你們什麼時候可以做出一個十年的路徑圖上次我跟部長問過那看看市長今天有什麼樣的想法可以給我承諾嗎什麼時候可以做出來跟委員報告我們之前這個有跟也是委員有提到說我們應該可以在一個\n892580\t916799\t三個月內在三個月內因為最主要還是要看政府這一段我們要做中長期的規劃我們先在目前是先以碳價就是這個收碳費為主那這個三個月內我們做的規劃確實會依委員的指示就是在十年內所以你是說只有三個月能做碳費沒有沒有我說三個月內我們會把十年的路徑圖跟委員做報告就是整體的好再有時間出來謝謝\n920722\t921950\t謝謝吳委員下一位陳穎委員\n","txt":"謝謝有請部長還有外交理事長、學部長跟理事長部長還次長\n謝謝兩位我剛剛其實剛聽到這個薛部長有報告就是說以專業務實跟有貢獻來報告這次COP的出國那可是我覺得我個人感覺是一個mixed picture然後我覺得是見仁見智啦比如說像這七年來臺灣的這個探用使用率增加那\n自然天然氣增加以整個經濟成長或百分比不同的角度看這個東西會有不同的解答我抱著投影還沒出來我知道外交部這次有安排一些會議比如說\n在就是說一些會議那像這裡頭有些照片是跟外交部這邊立法院安排的那有一些是我自己私人的一些會議那像比如說在右上方這位跟Michael Sharon就是我FB有PO的這個綠色金融大使我本來是在藍區跟他見面可是因為臨時我們沒有辦法立法委員全部四位都沒辦法進去嘛所以我就是在外面的這個\n公共空間跟他喝杯咖啡然後把我本來在藍區想跟他討論的事情在外面討論那他之前在聯合國從開發計畫的UNDP裡頭是擔任永續金融中心的這個高級顧問在2016年到2019年期間他也擔任G20的永續金融研究小組的主席\n同時在2016年的時候幫中國銀行在英國的證交所發他們第一個Green Bond經驗非常豐富他有很多一些Private Public Partnership的一些經驗接下來我有一個影片跟大家快速的分享一下\n一些建築物等等的大家可以看到就說像這COP的現場比較明顯的一些建築物等等的我們就被交代要非常低調要到大家回台北的時候才能PO比較辨識度高的COP地標在這邊反而用民間的企業或是基金會進來相對來講算榮譽\n這是在阿布達底的部分可是其他那些都在COP\n今天就看到了Fusion跟Fission的公司Fusion是台美合作的公司叫做Alpha Ring它是在Monterey, California跟在台北這邊合作的公司Fusion呢是唯一真的是Zero Waste的部分因為其實我現在講很多綠能的像Solar跟Wind的話它事實上還是有一些Treatment Problems這個部分但還是在研究當中能不能真的是\n現場的車子都是電動車不同的國家也有他們一些各國管那裡頭還有分藍區跟綠區藍區的話就是各國領袖跟智庫的人員可以參加一般在做一些key decision maker綠區的話呢就是很多的一些新創跟綠能相關的產業或是一些綠色金融很好的一些典範呢也在這邊跟大家可以分享\n所以我想展示就是說其實在臺灣的這個外交困境當中呢是非常艱難的然後想要解釋下一個我也麻煩你就是說其實事實上呢我其實有被邀請兩場在所謂的Parliamentary Pavilion\n上午的時候跟週二下午的時候都有作為與談人可是因為就是沒有最後拿到藍區的這個證件呢我也沒有辦法進去就相當的可惜那之後呢其實星期四的時候因為我們去COP那COP是星期四剛好休會\n所以我就自己跑跨了邊界去了阿布達比然後這時候也想跟兩位分享就是說其實我是被邀請也是去做與談人那這次有辦法進去因為我是用民間的名義進去的這是國際智庫米爾肯研究院然後中間這位是Mike Milken本人\n第五屆中東及非洲國家開放會關心未來再生能源用金融帶動產業轉型Milken專注四個主軸教育、健康、新創企業、金融\n同時我要提到其實這次過去阿布達比邊界的時候你也發現到說阿布達比現在是有全世界最大的太陽能板的面積它是跟中國做合作的那這也代表就是說石油的國家它可以重新再做能源轉型\n同時它現在空間大、太陽多、風也多它其實要整個做這個轉型是非常有利基點的那這也呼應就是說其實我覺得臺灣必須要勇敢面對就是說如果真的我們要變成一個能源堅韌的國家的話我們其實選擇是不多的因為我們是一個小島國\n然後我們也沒有很多的天然的資源不像中東的話連這次我們私下跟一些歐洲的國家的議員交流的話像盧森堡他們覺得他們不支持核能可是他們是跟邊界的比利時買核能啊對不對那這些國家邊界他們雖然不支持核能不簽署這些合約不代表說他們沒有在用核能的電\n可是臺灣就是一個鎖國我們要在這個情況之下怎麼樣去突破這個困境我覺得不考慮啟動核能的話是不務實的那再來就是想要分享就是說下一位麻煩William\n就是說我們實際上面對外交的這個困境那這個是我從這個CSIS一個智庫它2020年的報告後面的這個截圖就是這列出所有現在臺灣撤出聯合國之後所有的\n全體合作發展基金會及全體合作發展基金會及全體合作發展基金會及全體合作發展基金會及全體合作\n國家人口250萬人是全世界的0.3人口的面積而已所以是台灣在這個情況之下我們要什麼樣的立場不只是用政府機關因為這個原因這次我們四個委員都沒有辦法進藍區的場部長進你也沒辦法進去嘛 對不對那我們要怎麼樣能發揮其他我看到這些NGO的一些membership為什麼我突然講到這個Asian Development Bank就是亞洲開發銀行呢就接下來想要分享就是說\n我個人的看法是如果今天台灣必須要走到淨零碳排的話我們的金融產業必須要跟國際接軌然後呢我們的所有的官方的金融機構必須官民一把尺才能讓我們跟國際接軌同時能淨零碳排淨零轉型\n我們的金融產業必須要走到國際化那你可以看就是說這次像COP有這個所謂的Loss and Damage Fund那這Loss and Damage Fund裡頭呢其實就是所謂的對我而言是一個叫做氣候二軌的這個氣候金融的二軌外交那譬如說這個像譬如說氣候金融投資主權基金等等的這都是可以互相彼此投資的不然您先領洗我知道對去看省預算好謝謝對那\n比如說這次我有跟這個諾魯諾魯我們一個邦交國做交流諾魯他的國家還比帛琉更小我問他說你們現在的這個淨零的方向是如何你們現在能源用的怎麼樣他說他們是用Diesel就用柴油為主他說我們只要裝兩個區塊我們島上只要裝兩個區塊的太陽能板我馬上50%就可以go clean那我說那請問一下你的這個\n你這個solar panel誰幫你裝他說中國幫他裝的然後同時他說最近要蓋個碼頭是中國幫他做的那我說欸納魯你不是我們台灣的邦交國嗎那你是邦交國為什麼這個案子是給這個中國做他說中國就是Asian Development Bank去做這個談判的\n所以我的意思就是說其實透過這個ADB亞洲開發銀行這是我們台灣是full membership的我們在這一場這樣這部分打輸的話我覺得是相當的可惜的而且要提到說您看您外交部現在這個報告上面也有講就是說你們外交部的報告對COP說有充分發揮外交的效益我會覺得是說以提供你們參考\n向很多國家澳洲、西班牙、意大利跟加拿大他們的MOFA跟MOE是併在一起的他們的名字叫做Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade我真的非常的覺得是個非常重要的議題所以可以呼應說我們的外交跟經濟是不是可以一起並肩作戰而這樣子的話才不會讓我們的這個邦交國像納魯\n主要主要主要主要主要主要主要\n中國廠商為什麼會得標?事實上這邊也講到Kathy其實中國廠商他在全世界各地都用低價的方式去競標那他有背後有大量的政府或其他的補貼所以很多的國家都在抱怨說這些投標機制可能要做修改\n只是跟委員補充,ATB台灣當然會非常積極的運用我們是一個Full Membership的身份來充分的發揮我們也用很多機制來鼓勵我們的業者去參加ATB的標案那只是說在剛才您提到這個特定的標案上面,最終是中國的企業得標ATB是甲方,他來招標,然後得標的企業是中國,不是中國在協助農業\n跟外交部跟我們行政單位是講說要作戰的時候尤其我們這麼多委員出現我們是應該是走大門走正路的我知道我們台灣的外交處境是非常有困境的這次我們這樣子去\n我覺得我很對不起納稅人我覺得我沒有發揮到我們該發揮到的效應如果真的要做立院的外交的話我們等立法院的院長請這些國際的人員來就好了舉例講好幾個我遇到這些跟我們後來吃飯、找飯的人他們的牌子都寫到Party Overflow我還在玩牌子上也寫到Party Overflow這是什麼意思\nPARTY不是開PARTY的PARTY那PARTY是一個團體的意思PARTY OVERFLOW那些委員告訴我是說是不能發言的委員才跟我們來吃早飯在飯店外面跟我們吃早飯的這個情況在COP28以前一直存在我們會持續跟立法院一起來努力這一次有一些特殊狀況我相信委員很清楚有FULL MEMBERSHIP剛剛那些組織我們應該積極地把相關的窗口不管是經濟部、財政部或什麼的相關剛剛那些\n全體組織的做上對口來發揮真正的功能然後一些比較我們不是正式的會員的就要走正的路像這次這些NPO全部都是簽認騰一個中國的啊我們非常感謝我們立法院在國會外交的協助一起推動我們當然希望所有人都可以走大門走正路\n當時我在現場的時候我們拿到我們之前你給我們的證件要進去的時候當場就有聯合國人在我現場跟我講我聽到了就跟你們講說you betrayed my trust, this is not how it's supposed to be, you shouldn't be here\n委員其實在委員很清楚您出發前我們兩次有跟您溝通今年情況比較特殊一點那我相信您也知道特殊的地方是什麼地方沒有什麼特殊的地方所以我們大家要一起努力你們要的話就是要用正當的方式跟國際上做交流否則這樣你會讓所有想幫助我們都很難做的事情謝謝你\n然後最後不好意思我要講的最後一頁就是不好意思主席就是那個關於這個這個是環境部的部分環境部的話就是說我想要想要追就是說因為不好意思我之前跟部長是追過就是這個10年的這個環境部的這個途徑藍圖\n因為其實我之前多次也呼籲就是說碳費、碳稅、碳底換的交易、碳交放的平台這四種到底要陸續怎麼樣有些配套措施因為這不只是對產業還有這個臺灣這個金融接軌金融這個\n碳排金融接軌的國際性是非常重要的因為很多產業業界都不了解就是說碳權到底是要不要買然後要買多少然後未來這東西可能成為金融商品然後有沒有一些其他碳定價的機制在那產業要轉型的話是需要很多年的時間不能一次馬上到位\n那如果整個架構沒有提出來的話這樣子產業很難做一些中長期的規劃所以想了解說你們什麼時候可以做出一個十年的路徑圖上次我跟部長問過那看看市長今天有什麼樣的想法可以給我承諾嗎什麼時候可以做出來跟委員報告我們之前這個有跟也是委員有提到說我們應該可以在一個\n三個月內在三個月內因為最主要還是要看政府這一段我們要做中長期的規劃我們先在目前是先以碳價就是這個收碳費為主那這個三個月內我們做的規劃確實會依委員的指示就是在十年內所以你是說只有三個月能做碳費沒有沒有我說三個月內我們會把十年的路徑圖跟委員做報告就是整體的好再有時間出來謝謝\n謝謝吳委員下一位陳穎委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:13.463 --> 00:20.291\n謝謝有請部長還有外交理事長、學部長跟理事長部長還次長\n\n00:26.786 --> 00:47.418\n謝謝兩位我剛剛其實剛聽到這個薛部長有報告就是說以專業務實跟有貢獻來報告這次COP的出國那可是我覺得我個人感覺是一個mixedpicture然後我覺得是見仁見智啦比如說像這七年來臺灣的這個探用使用率增加那\n\n00:49.778 --> 01:08.622\n自然天然氣增加以整個經濟成長或百分比不同的角度看這個東西會有不同的解答我抱著投影還沒出來我知道外交部這次有安排一些會議比如說\n\n01:15.134 --> 01:43.098\n在就是說一些會議那像這裡頭有些照片是跟外交部這邊立法院安排的那有一些是我自己私人的一些會議那像比如說在右上方這位跟MichaelSharon就是我FB有PO的這個綠色金融大使我本來是在藍區跟他見面可是因為臨時我們沒有辦法立法委員全部四位都沒辦法進去嘛所以我就是在外面的這個\n\n01:43.778 --> 02:03.635\n公共空間跟他喝杯咖啡然後把我本來在藍區想跟他討論的事情在外面討論那他之前在聯合國從開發計畫的UNDP裡頭是擔任永續金融中心的這個高級顧問在2016年到2019年期間他也擔任G20的永續金融研究小組的主席\n\n02:07.732 --> 02:27.777\n同時在2016年的時候幫中國銀行在英國的證交所發他們第一個GreenBond經驗非常豐富他有很多一些PrivatePublicPartnership的一些經驗接下來我有一個影片跟大家快速的分享一下\n\n02:36.493 --> 03:02.331\n一些建築物等等的大家可以看到就說像這COP的現場比較明顯的一些建築物等等的我們就被交代要非常低調要到大家回台北的時候才能PO比較辨識度高的COP地標在這邊反而用民間的企業或是基金會進來相對來講算榮譽\n\n03:18.038 --> 03:21.541\n這是在阿布達底的部分可是其他那些都在COP\n\n03:25.009 --> 03:50.658\n今天就看到了Fusion跟Fission的公司Fusion是台美合作的公司叫做AlphaRing它是在Monterey,California跟在台北這邊合作的公司Fusion呢是唯一真的是ZeroWaste的部分因為其實我現在講很多綠能的像Solar跟Wind的話它事實上還是有一些TreatmentProblems這個部分但還是在研究當中能不能真的是\n\n03:55.079 --> 04:17.224\n現場的車子都是電動車不同的國家也有他們一些各國管那裡頭還有分藍區跟綠區藍區的話就是各國領袖跟智庫的人員可以參加一般在做一些keydecisionmaker綠區的話呢就是很多的一些新創跟綠能相關的產業或是一些綠色金融很好的一些典範呢也在這邊跟大家可以分享\n\n04:20.206 --> 04:35.679\n所以我想展示就是說其實在臺灣的這個外交困境當中呢是非常艱難的然後想要解釋下一個我也麻煩你就是說其實事實上呢我其實有被邀請兩場在所謂的ParliamentaryPavilion\n\n04:36.710 --> 04:52.528\n上午的時候跟週二下午的時候都有作為與談人可是因為就是沒有最後拿到藍區的這個證件呢我也沒有辦法進去就相當的可惜那之後呢其實星期四的時候因為我們去COP那COP是星期四剛好休會\n\n04:53.289 --> 05:13.427\n所以我就自己跑跨了邊界去了阿布達比然後這時候也想跟兩位分享就是說其實我是被邀請也是去做與談人那這次有辦法進去因為我是用民間的名義進去的這是國際智庫米爾肯研究院然後中間這位是MikeMilken本人\n\n05:16.090 --> 05:27.060\n第五屆中東及非洲國家開放會關心未來再生能源用金融帶動產業轉型Milken專注四個主軸教育、健康、新創企業、金融\n\n05:36.759 --> 05:56.100\n同時我要提到其實這次過去阿布達比邊界的時候你也發現到說阿布達比現在是有全世界最大的太陽能板的面積它是跟中國做合作的那這也代表就是說石油的國家它可以重新再做能源轉型\n\n05:58.522 --> 06:18.777\n同時它現在空間大、太陽多、風也多它其實要整個做這個轉型是非常有利基點的那這也呼應就是說其實我覺得臺灣必須要勇敢面對就是說如果真的我們要變成一個能源堅韌的國家的話我們其實選擇是不多的因為我們是一個小島國\n\n06:19.758 --> 06:43.706\n然後我們也沒有很多的天然的資源不像中東的話連這次我們私下跟一些歐洲的國家的議員交流的話像盧森堡他們覺得他們不支持核能可是他們是跟邊界的比利時買核能啊對不對那這些國家邊界他們雖然不支持核能不簽署這些合約不代表說他們沒有在用核能的電\n\n06:44.246 --> 07:00.783\n可是臺灣就是一個鎖國我們要在這個情況之下怎麼樣去突破這個困境我覺得不考慮啟動核能的話是不務實的那再來就是想要分享就是說下一位麻煩William\n\n07:01.776 --> 07:16.156\n就是說我們實際上面對外交的這個困境那這個是我從這個CSIS一個智庫它2020年的報告後面的這個截圖就是這列出所有現在臺灣撤出聯合國之後所有的\n\n07:16.496 --> 07:21.717\n全體合作發展基金會及全體合作發展基金會及全體合作發展基金會及全體合作發展基金會及全體合作\n\n07:42.503 --> 08:09.725\n國家人口250萬人是全世界的0.3人口的面積而已所以是台灣在這個情況之下我們要什麼樣的立場不只是用政府機關因為這個原因這次我們四個委員都沒有辦法進藍區的場部長進你也沒辦法進去嘛對不對那我們要怎麼樣能發揮其他我看到這些NGO的一些membership為什麼我突然講到這個AsianDevelopmentBank就是亞洲開發銀行呢就接下來想要分享就是說\n\n08:10.546 --> 08:27.004\n我個人的看法是如果今天台灣必須要走到淨零碳排的話我們的金融產業必須要跟國際接軌然後呢我們的所有的官方的金融機構必須官民一把尺才能讓我們跟國際接軌同時能淨零碳排淨零轉型\n\n08:27.885 --> 08:54.087\n我們的金融產業必須要走到國際化那你可以看就是說這次像COP有這個所謂的LossandDamageFund那這LossandDamageFund裡頭呢其實就是所謂的對我而言是一個叫做氣候二軌的這個氣候金融的二軌外交那譬如說這個像譬如說氣候金融投資主權基金等等的這都是可以互相彼此投資的不然您先領洗我知道對去看省預算好謝謝對那\n\n08:56.937 --> 09:17.566\n比如說這次我有跟這個諾魯諾魯我們一個邦交國做交流諾魯他的國家還比帛琉更小我問他說你們現在的這個淨零的方向是如何你們現在能源用的怎麼樣他說他們是用Diesel就用柴油為主他說我們只要裝兩個區塊我們島上只要裝兩個區塊的太陽能板我馬上50%就可以goclean那我說那請問一下你的這個\n\n09:24.829 --> 09:39.697\n你這個solarpanel誰幫你裝他說中國幫他裝的然後同時他說最近要蓋個碼頭是中國幫他做的那我說欸納魯你不是我們台灣的邦交國嗎那你是邦交國為什麼這個案子是給這個中國做他說中國就是AsianDevelopmentBank去做這個談判的\n\n09:41.138 --> 10:03.175\n所以我的意思就是說其實透過這個ADB亞洲開發銀行這是我們台灣是fullmembership的我們在這一場這樣這部分打輸的話我覺得是相當的可惜的而且要提到說您看您外交部現在這個報告上面也有講就是說你們外交部的報告對COP說有充分發揮外交的效益我會覺得是說以提供你們參考\n\n10:04.036 --> 10:24.170\n向很多國家澳洲、西班牙、意大利跟加拿大他們的MOFA跟MOE是併在一起的他們的名字叫做DepartmentofForeignAffairsandTrade我真的非常的覺得是個非常重要的議題所以可以呼應說我們的外交跟經濟是不是可以一起並肩作戰而這樣子的話才不會讓我們的這個邦交國像納魯\n\n10:25.811 --> 10:28.693\n主要主要主要主要主要主要主要\n\n10:44.825 --> 10:59.097\n中國廠商為什麼會得標?事實上這邊也講到Kathy其實中國廠商他在全世界各地都用低價的方式去競標那他有背後有大量的政府或其他的補貼所以很多的國家都在抱怨說這些投標機制可能要做修改\n\n10:59.797 --> 11:21.339\n只是跟委員補充,ATB台灣當然會非常積極的運用我們是一個FullMembership的身份來充分的發揮我們也用很多機制來鼓勵我們的業者去參加ATB的標案那只是說在剛才您提到這個特定的標案上面,最終是中國的企業得標ATB是甲方,他來招標,然後得標的企業是中國,不是中國在協助農業\n\n11:22.981 --> 11:36.658\n跟外交部跟我們行政單位是講說要作戰的時候尤其我們這麼多委員出現我們是應該是走大門走正路的我知道我們台灣的外交處境是非常有困境的這次我們這樣子去\n\n11:38.760 --> 11:59.703\n我覺得我很對不起納稅人我覺得我沒有發揮到我們該發揮到的效應如果真的要做立院的外交的話我們等立法院的院長請這些國際的人員來就好了舉例講好幾個我遇到這些跟我們後來吃飯、找飯的人他們的牌子都寫到PartyOverflow我還在玩牌子上也寫到PartyOverflow這是什麼意思\n\n12:00.123 --> 12:19.332\nPARTY不是開PARTY的PARTY那PARTY是一個團體的意思PARTYOVERFLOW那些委員告訴我是說是不能發言的委員才跟我們來吃早飯在飯店外面跟我們吃早飯的這個情況在COP28以前一直存在我們會持續跟立法院一起來努力這一次有一些特殊狀況我相信委員很清楚有FULLMEMBERSHIP剛剛那些組織我們應該積極地把相關的窗口不管是經濟部、財政部或什麼的相關剛剛那些\n\n12:27.996 --> 12:50.980\n全體組織的做上對口來發揮真正的功能然後一些比較我們不是正式的會員的就要走正的路像這次這些NPO全部都是簽認騰一個中國的啊我們非常感謝我們立法院在國會外交的協助一起推動我們當然希望所有人都可以走大門走正路\n\n12:51.440 --> 12:58.067\n當時我在現場的時候我們拿到我們之前你給我們的證件要進去的時候當場就有聯合國人在我現場跟我講我聽到了就跟你們講說youbetrayedmytrust,thisisnothowit'ssupposedtobe,youshouldn'tbehere\n\n13:10.948 --> 13:30.436\n委員其實在委員很清楚您出發前我們兩次有跟您溝通今年情況比較特殊一點那我相信您也知道特殊的地方是什麼地方沒有什麼特殊的地方所以我們大家要一起努力你們要的話就是要用正當的方式跟國際上做交流否則這樣你會讓所有想幫助我們都很難做的事情謝謝你\n\n13:31.716 --> 13:35.898\n然後最後不好意思我要講的最後一頁就是不好意思主席就是那個關於這個這個是環境部的部分環境部的話就是說我想要想要追就是說因為不好意思我之前跟部長是追過就是這個10年的這個環境部的這個途徑藍圖\n\n13:50.103 --> 14:01.814\n因為其實我之前多次也呼籲就是說碳費、碳稅、碳底換的交易、碳交放的平台這四種到底要陸續怎麼樣有些配套措施因為這不只是對產業還有這個臺灣這個金融接軌金融這個\n\n14:06.378 --> 14:26.742\n碳排金融接軌的國際性是非常重要的因為很多產業業界都不了解就是說碳權到底是要不要買然後要買多少然後未來這東西可能成為金融商品然後有沒有一些其他碳定價的機制在那產業要轉型的話是需要很多年的時間不能一次馬上到位\n\n14:27.102 --> 14:41.251\n那如果整個架構沒有提出來的話這樣子產業很難做一些中長期的規劃所以想了解說你們什麼時候可以做出一個十年的路徑圖上次我跟部長問過那看看市長今天有什麼樣的想法可以給我承諾嗎什麼時候可以做出來跟委員報告我們之前這個有跟也是委員有提到說我們應該可以在一個\n\n14:52.580 --> 15:16.799\n三個月內在三個月內因為最主要還是要看政府這一段我們要做中長期的規劃我們先在目前是先以碳價就是這個收碳費為主那這個三個月內我們做的規劃確實會依委員的指示就是在十年內所以你是說只有三個月能做碳費沒有沒有我說三個月內我們會把十年的路徑圖跟委員做報告就是整體的好再有時間出來謝謝\n\n15:20.722 --> 15:21.950\n謝謝吳委員下一位陳穎委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":13.463,"end":20.291,"text":"謝謝有請部長還有外交理事長、學部長跟理事長部長還次長"},{"start":26.786,"end":47.418,"text":"謝謝兩位我剛剛其實剛聽到這個薛部長有報告就是說以專業務實跟有貢獻來報告這次COP的出國那可是我覺得我個人感覺是一個mixed picture然後我覺得是見仁見智啦比如說像這七年來臺灣的這個探用使用率增加那"},{"start":49.778,"end":68.622,"text":"自然天然氣增加以整個經濟成長或百分比不同的角度看這個東西會有不同的解答我抱著投影還沒出來我知道外交部這次有安排一些會議比如說"},{"start":75.134,"end":103.098,"text":"在就是說一些會議那像這裡頭有些照片是跟外交部這邊立法院安排的那有一些是我自己私人的一些會議那像比如說在右上方這位跟Michael Sharon就是我FB有PO的這個綠色金融大使我本來是在藍區跟他見面可是因為臨時我們沒有辦法立法委員全部四位都沒辦法進去嘛所以我就是在外面的這個"},{"start":103.778,"end":123.635,"text":"公共空間跟他喝杯咖啡然後把我本來在藍區想跟他討論的事情在外面討論那他之前在聯合國從開發計畫的UNDP裡頭是擔任永續金融中心的這個高級顧問在2016年到2019年期間他也擔任G20的永續金融研究小組的主席"},{"start":127.732,"end":147.777,"text":"同時在2016年的時候幫中國銀行在英國的證交所發他們第一個Green Bond經驗非常豐富他有很多一些Private Public Partnership的一些經驗接下來我有一個影片跟大家快速的分享一下"},{"start":156.493,"end":182.331,"text":"一些建築物等等的大家可以看到就說像這COP的現場比較明顯的一些建築物等等的我們就被交代要非常低調要到大家回台北的時候才能PO比較辨識度高的COP地標在這邊反而用民間的企業或是基金會進來相對來講算榮譽"},{"start":198.038,"end":201.541,"text":"這是在阿布達底的部分可是其他那些都在COP"},{"start":205.009,"end":230.658,"text":"今天就看到了Fusion跟Fission的公司Fusion是台美合作的公司叫做Alpha Ring它是在Monterey, California跟在台北這邊合作的公司Fusion呢是唯一真的是Zero Waste的部分因為其實我現在講很多綠能的像Solar跟Wind的話它事實上還是有一些Treatment Problems這個部分但還是在研究當中能不能真的是"},{"start":235.079,"end":257.224,"text":"現場的車子都是電動車不同的國家也有他們一些各國管那裡頭還有分藍區跟綠區藍區的話就是各國領袖跟智庫的人員可以參加一般在做一些key decision maker綠區的話呢就是很多的一些新創跟綠能相關的產業或是一些綠色金融很好的一些典範呢也在這邊跟大家可以分享"},{"start":260.206,"end":275.679,"text":"所以我想展示就是說其實在臺灣的這個外交困境當中呢是非常艱難的然後想要解釋下一個我也麻煩你就是說其實事實上呢我其實有被邀請兩場在所謂的Parliamentary Pavilion"},{"start":276.71,"end":292.528,"text":"上午的時候跟週二下午的時候都有作為與談人可是因為就是沒有最後拿到藍區的這個證件呢我也沒有辦法進去就相當的可惜那之後呢其實星期四的時候因為我們去COP那COP是星期四剛好休會"},{"start":293.289,"end":313.427,"text":"所以我就自己跑跨了邊界去了阿布達比然後這時候也想跟兩位分享就是說其實我是被邀請也是去做與談人那這次有辦法進去因為我是用民間的名義進去的這是國際智庫米爾肯研究院然後中間這位是Mike Milken本人"},{"start":316.09,"end":327.06,"text":"第五屆中東及非洲國家開放會關心未來再生能源用金融帶動產業轉型Milken專注四個主軸教育、健康、新創企業、金融"},{"start":336.759,"end":356.1,"text":"同時我要提到其實這次過去阿布達比邊界的時候你也發現到說阿布達比現在是有全世界最大的太陽能板的面積它是跟中國做合作的那這也代表就是說石油的國家它可以重新再做能源轉型"},{"start":358.522,"end":378.777,"text":"同時它現在空間大、太陽多、風也多它其實要整個做這個轉型是非常有利基點的那這也呼應就是說其實我覺得臺灣必須要勇敢面對就是說如果真的我們要變成一個能源堅韌的國家的話我們其實選擇是不多的因為我們是一個小島國"},{"start":379.758,"end":403.706,"text":"然後我們也沒有很多的天然的資源不像中東的話連這次我們私下跟一些歐洲的國家的議員交流的話像盧森堡他們覺得他們不支持核能可是他們是跟邊界的比利時買核能啊對不對那這些國家邊界他們雖然不支持核能不簽署這些合約不代表說他們沒有在用核能的電"},{"start":404.246,"end":420.783,"text":"可是臺灣就是一個鎖國我們要在這個情況之下怎麼樣去突破這個困境我覺得不考慮啟動核能的話是不務實的那再來就是想要分享就是說下一位麻煩William"},{"start":421.776,"end":436.156,"text":"就是說我們實際上面對外交的這個困境那這個是我從這個CSIS一個智庫它2020年的報告後面的這個截圖就是這列出所有現在臺灣撤出聯合國之後所有的"},{"start":436.496,"end":441.717,"text":"全體合作發展基金會及全體合作發展基金會及全體合作發展基金會及全體合作發展基金會及全體合作"},{"start":462.503,"end":489.725,"text":"國家人口250萬人是全世界的0.3人口的面積而已所以是台灣在這個情況之下我們要什麼樣的立場不只是用政府機關因為這個原因這次我們四個委員都沒有辦法進藍區的場部長進你也沒辦法進去嘛 對不對那我們要怎麼樣能發揮其他我看到這些NGO的一些membership為什麼我突然講到這個Asian Development Bank就是亞洲開發銀行呢就接下來想要分享就是說"},{"start":490.546,"end":507.004,"text":"我個人的看法是如果今天台灣必須要走到淨零碳排的話我們的金融產業必須要跟國際接軌然後呢我們的所有的官方的金融機構必須官民一把尺才能讓我們跟國際接軌同時能淨零碳排淨零轉型"},{"start":507.885,"end":534.087,"text":"我們的金融產業必須要走到國際化那你可以看就是說這次像COP有這個所謂的Loss and Damage Fund那這Loss and Damage Fund裡頭呢其實就是所謂的對我而言是一個叫做氣候二軌的這個氣候金融的二軌外交那譬如說這個像譬如說氣候金融投資主權基金等等的這都是可以互相彼此投資的不然您先領洗我知道對去看省預算好謝謝對那"},{"start":536.937,"end":557.566,"text":"比如說這次我有跟這個諾魯諾魯我們一個邦交國做交流諾魯他的國家還比帛琉更小我問他說你們現在的這個淨零的方向是如何你們現在能源用的怎麼樣他說他們是用Diesel就用柴油為主他說我們只要裝兩個區塊我們島上只要裝兩個區塊的太陽能板我馬上50%就可以go clean那我說那請問一下你的這個"},{"start":564.829,"end":579.697,"text":"你這個solar panel誰幫你裝他說中國幫他裝的然後同時他說最近要蓋個碼頭是中國幫他做的那我說欸納魯你不是我們台灣的邦交國嗎那你是邦交國為什麼這個案子是給這個中國做他說中國就是Asian Development Bank去做這個談判的"},{"start":581.138,"end":603.175,"text":"所以我的意思就是說其實透過這個ADB亞洲開發銀行這是我們台灣是full membership的我們在這一場這樣這部分打輸的話我覺得是相當的可惜的而且要提到說您看您外交部現在這個報告上面也有講就是說你們外交部的報告對COP說有充分發揮外交的效益我會覺得是說以提供你們參考"},{"start":604.036,"end":624.17,"text":"向很多國家澳洲、西班牙、意大利跟加拿大他們的MOFA跟MOE是併在一起的他們的名字叫做Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade我真的非常的覺得是個非常重要的議題所以可以呼應說我們的外交跟經濟是不是可以一起並肩作戰而這樣子的話才不會讓我們的這個邦交國像納魯"},{"start":625.811,"end":628.693,"text":"主要主要主要主要主要主要主要"},{"start":644.825,"end":659.097,"text":"中國廠商為什麼會得標?事實上這邊也講到Kathy其實中國廠商他在全世界各地都用低價的方式去競標那他有背後有大量的政府或其他的補貼所以很多的國家都在抱怨說這些投標機制可能要做修改"},{"start":659.797,"end":681.339,"text":"只是跟委員補充,ATB台灣當然會非常積極的運用我們是一個Full Membership的身份來充分的發揮我們也用很多機制來鼓勵我們的業者去參加ATB的標案那只是說在剛才您提到這個特定的標案上面,最終是中國的企業得標ATB是甲方,他來招標,然後得標的企業是中國,不是中國在協助農業"},{"start":682.981,"end":696.658,"text":"跟外交部跟我們行政單位是講說要作戰的時候尤其我們這麼多委員出現我們是應該是走大門走正路的我知道我們台灣的外交處境是非常有困境的這次我們這樣子去"},{"start":698.76,"end":719.703,"text":"我覺得我很對不起納稅人我覺得我沒有發揮到我們該發揮到的效應如果真的要做立院的外交的話我們等立法院的院長請這些國際的人員來就好了舉例講好幾個我遇到這些跟我們後來吃飯、找飯的人他們的牌子都寫到Party Overflow我還在玩牌子上也寫到Party Overflow這是什麼意思"},{"start":720.123,"end":739.332,"text":"PARTY不是開PARTY的PARTY那PARTY是一個團體的意思PARTY OVERFLOW那些委員告訴我是說是不能發言的委員才跟我們來吃早飯在飯店外面跟我們吃早飯的這個情況在COP28以前一直存在我們會持續跟立法院一起來努力這一次有一些特殊狀況我相信委員很清楚有FULL MEMBERSHIP剛剛那些組織我們應該積極地把相關的窗口不管是經濟部、財政部或什麼的相關剛剛那些"},{"start":747.996,"end":770.98,"text":"全體組織的做上對口來發揮真正的功能然後一些比較我們不是正式的會員的就要走正的路像這次這些NPO全部都是簽認騰一個中國的啊我們非常感謝我們立法院在國會外交的協助一起推動我們當然希望所有人都可以走大門走正路"},{"start":771.44,"end":778.067,"text":"當時我在現場的時候我們拿到我們之前你給我們的證件要進去的時候當場就有聯合國人在我現場跟我講我聽到了就跟你們講說you betrayed my trust, this is not how it's supposed to be, you shouldn't be here"},{"start":790.948,"end":810.436,"text":"委員其實在委員很清楚您出發前我們兩次有跟您溝通今年情況比較特殊一點那我相信您也知道特殊的地方是什麼地方沒有什麼特殊的地方所以我們大家要一起努力你們要的話就是要用正當的方式跟國際上做交流否則這樣你會讓所有想幫助我們都很難做的事情謝謝你"},{"start":811.716,"end":815.898,"text":"然後最後不好意思我要講的最後一頁就是不好意思主席就是那個關於這個這個是環境部的部分環境部的話就是說我想要想要追就是說因為不好意思我之前跟部長是追過就是這個10年的這個環境部的這個途徑藍圖"},{"start":830.103,"end":841.814,"text":"因為其實我之前多次也呼籲就是說碳費、碳稅、碳底換的交易、碳交放的平台這四種到底要陸續怎麼樣有些配套措施因為這不只是對產業還有這個臺灣這個金融接軌金融這個"},{"start":846.378,"end":866.742,"text":"碳排金融接軌的國際性是非常重要的因為很多產業業界都不了解就是說碳權到底是要不要買然後要買多少然後未來這東西可能成為金融商品然後有沒有一些其他碳定價的機制在那產業要轉型的話是需要很多年的時間不能一次馬上到位"},{"start":867.102,"end":881.251,"text":"那如果整個架構沒有提出來的話這樣子產業很難做一些中長期的規劃所以想了解說你們什麼時候可以做出一個十年的路徑圖上次我跟部長問過那看看市長今天有什麼樣的想法可以給我承諾嗎什麼時候可以做出來跟委員報告我們之前這個有跟也是委員有提到說我們應該可以在一個"},{"start":892.58,"end":916.799,"text":"三個月內在三個月內因為最主要還是要看政府這一段我們要做中長期的規劃我們先在目前是先以碳價就是這個收碳費為主那這個三個月內我們做的規劃確實會依委員的指示就是在十年內所以你是說只有三個月能做碳費沒有沒有我說三個月內我們會把十年的路徑圖跟委員做報告就是整體的好再有時間出來謝謝"},{"start":920.722,"end":921.95,"text":"謝謝吳委員下一位陳穎委員"}]}}}}