{"id":149039,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149039","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/82fae47d7884a3e2cd2686a0b7bf6e416be509c1802f8863c986728e607a032204f966d313e88c125ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游毓蘭","委員發言時間":"09:31:04 - 09:33:08","影片長度":"00:02:04","會議時間":"2023-12-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第12次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院財政委員會報告彙總完成中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告案（社會福利及衛生環境委員會）；本院財政委員會函送外交及國防委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案；本院財政委員會函送經濟、財政、司法及法制三委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案；本院財政委員會函送內政、教育及文化、交通三委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案等15案。 \n二、12月15日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議","id":"院會-10-8-12","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12},"date":"2023-12-18","duration":124,"end_time":"2023-12-18T09:33:08+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-18T09:31:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":104,"blocks":[["游委員毓蘭：（9時31分）主席、各位同仁大家早安。今天三讀通過槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案，增訂槍砲彈藥的主要組成零件材質及殺傷力的認定基準，由中央主管機關公告。很遺憾未採用本席的主張──經槍砲彈藥審認爭議諮詢小組審議後，再由中央主管機關公告之，而非由行政機關單獨認定。本席期盼主管機關日後能徵詢各界專家、學者甚至相關團體的意見，秉公正、客觀的立場加以認定，並參採國際標準與時俱進，以杜各界的疑慮。","另外，本席修法主張爭議諮詢小組的組成應該遴聘相關機關代表及專家學者，而且外聘委員人數不得少於全體委員的二分之一。雖然內政部林右昌部長在委員會審查時支持本席看法，並建議調整外聘委員人數不得少於全體委員的三分之一，但卻未明定於修正的條文中，相關的組織運作則授權由中央主管機關定之。希望日後訂定相關子法時能夠確實明文規定外界委員的比例，以維護審議的專業、中立、客觀。","本條例雖然三讀通過，但部分民間團體仍有疑義。本席希望主管機關能夠多加與民眾溝通、消弭爭議、明確執法。願天佑臺灣、人民平安。謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請廖國棟委員、廖國棟委員、廖國棟委員不在。","繼續進行討論事項第五案。","五、本院內政委員會報告併案審查委員莊瑞雄等17人及委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案。（本案經提本院第10屆第8會期第9次會議報告決定：交內政委員會審查。茲接報告，爰於本次會議提出討論。）"],["主席：請宣讀審查報告。","立法院內政委員會函","受文者：議事處","發文日期：中華民國112年12月11日","發文字號：台立內字第1124002372號","速別：普通件","密等及解密條件或保密期限：","附件：如說明二","主旨：院會交付審查委員莊瑞雄等17人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」，業經併案審查完竣復請查照，提報院會公決。","說明：","一、復貴處112年12月06日台立議字第1120703876號、112年12月06日台立議字第1120703878號函。","二、附審查報告乙份（含條文對照表）。","正本：議事處","副本：內政委員會","併案審查本院委員莊瑞雄等17人及委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」審查報告","一、本院委員莊瑞雄等17人及委員蔡易餘等16人提案，均經本院第10屆第8會期第9次會議（112年11月24日）報告後決定：「交內政委員會審查。」。","二、本院內政委員會於112年12月7日（星期四）召開第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議，審查該二草案；由內政委員會羅召集委員美玲擔任主席，除邀請提案委員說明提案要旨，並邀請相關機關列席報告並備質詢。有莊瑞雄委員說明提案要旨，內政部部長林右昌、海洋委員會政務副主任委員周美伍報告、及大陸委員會、國防部、交通部、法務部、農業部等相關機關代表列席並備質詢。","三、委員莊瑞雄等17人提案要旨：","為有效遏阻抽砂船違法抽砂行為，避免犯罪行為人主張所用之抽砂船或器具非屬其所有規避罰責，爰依刑法第三十八條第二項但書規定，爰擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」，針對該條第三項所定犯罪用之船舶或其他機械設備，增訂「不問屬於犯罪行為人與否」等內容，以完備其法令規範。","四、委員蔡易餘等16人提案要旨：","鑑於中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法自民國八十七年一月二十一日制定公布以來，歷經一次修正，最近一次修正公布為民國一百十年一月二十七日。為有效遏阻抽砂船違法抽砂行為，避免犯罪行為人主張所用之抽砂船或器具非屬其所有規避罰責，爰依刑法第三十八條第二項但書規定，爰擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」，針對該條第三項所定犯罪用之船舶或其他機械設備，增訂「不問屬於犯罪行為人與否」等內容，以完備其法令規範。","(一)民國111年4月26日海洋委員會海巡署於澎湖七美西南方五十四浬查獲華益九號抽砂船違法盜砂，民國112年1月10日橋頭地院判決，船長處有期徒刑一年十個月，沒收抽砂船。針對上述判決，船長於民國112年2月3日提出上訴，臺灣高等法院高雄分院於民國112年8月10日開庭審議船長維持原判，惟抽砂船部分因無證據證明船主為共犯，不符供犯罪所用之物須屬「犯罪行為人」之要件，爰撤銷抽砂船沒收之判決。有關前述撤銷抽砂船沒收之判決，臺灣高等檢察署高雄檢察分署已於民國112年8月24日提出上訴，顯見為有效防堵抽砂船違法抽砂之行為，本條有修正之必要性。","(二)為有效遏阻抽砂船違法抽砂行為，本條前於民國110年1月27日修正公布，除大幅提高罰責外，並針對經判決沒收確定之犯罪用船舶或其他機械設備，訂有相關去化措施；為避免犯罪行為人主張所用之抽砂船或器具非屬其所有規避罰責，爰依《刑法》第三十八條第二項但書規定，修正本條第三項，增列「不問屬於犯罪行為人與否」等內容，以完備其法令規範。","五、內政部書面報告：","主席、各位委員女士、先生：","首先感謝各位委員對內政業務的關注與指導，今天大院內政委員會召開會議審查大院委員提案之中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第18條修正草案，本人應邀前來報告並備質詢，甚感榮幸及感謝。謹將本部意見說明如次，敬請委員參考：","有關莊瑞雄委員等17人、蔡易餘委員等16人提出，因刑法第38條第2項規定「供犯罪所用、犯罪預備之物或犯罪所生之物，屬於犯罪行為人者，得沒收之。但有特別規定者，依其規定。」故現行司法實務上，已有因無證據證明船主為共犯，不符供犯罪所用之物屬「犯罪行為人」之要件，而撤銷抽砂船沒收之判決；為有效遏阻抽砂船違法抽砂行為，避免犯罪行為人主張所用之抽砂船或器具非屬其所有規避罰責，爰提案修正「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」第18條條文，針對第3項所定犯罪用之船舶或其他機械設備，增訂「不問屬於犯罪行為人與否」等內容，以完備法令規範。本部對本次修法，予以尊重。惟案涉檢察官偵查起訴實務及法官自由裁量權，是否透過修法限縮法院裁量空間，本部尊重協商共識。","六、大陸委員會書面報告：","主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生：","承蒙貴委員會邀請，就併案審查「(一)委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案及(二)委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案之相關內容進行報告，以下謹提出本會說明，敬請各位委員指教。","(一)為加強遏阻抽砂船違法抽砂行為，本會支持本次修法，進一步完備法令規範","1.為有效遏阻抽砂船違法抽砂行為，中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第18條（下稱本條）條文前於110年1月27日修正公布，大幅提高刑責，並針對經判決沒收確定之犯罪用船舶或其他機械設備，訂有相關去化措施。據海洋委員會海巡署統計，我方於離島海域驅離及查扣陸籍越界抽（運）砂船艘次，自110年逐年顯著下降，至本（112）年9月底為止，於馬祖及澎湖海域驅離越界抽砂之陸船艘次，均已降至個位數，金門海域則幾無陸方抽砂船蹤跡，研判係因修法重罰產生遏阻實效，且海巡署持續加強執法力度所致。","2.惟考量實務上常見犯罪行為人以抗辯非船東、僅係租用抽砂船舶等手法逃避查緝，為防杜爾後越界抽砂情事死灰復燃，避免犯罪行為人主張所用之抽砂船或器具非屬其所有以規避刑責，爰依刑法第38條第2項但書規定，本次委員所提兩版本，重點均在修正本條第3項，增列「不問屬於犯罪行為人與否，沒收之」等內容，以完備其法令規範，本會敬表支持。","(二)本會將持續循兩岸既有機制，提供陸方相關事證，並呼籲對岸約束其所屬的船舶及人員，勿放任陸船越界作業，善盡維護海洋資源的責任","為遏阻陸籍船舶在我方海域違法抽砂，除海巡署就帶回留置陸籍船員事項請法務部向陸方進行通報外，本會亦均循例透過兩岸既有機制，要求陸方有關部門應加強約束其所屬人員及船舶，切勿放任陸船越界抽砂，並請陸方協調有關部門，積極配合協同執法，以保障離島居民權益，維護海洋環境與資源。","七、海洋委員會書面報告：","主席、各位委員女士、先生，大家好：","海洋委員會（以下簡稱本會）成立以來，承蒙大院委員支持及指教，使得各項海洋事務循序推展，在此表達至高的謝忱。","針對本日排審之「專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」，感謝大院的關切與重視，並優先納入審議排程，本日應邀提出報告及說明，敬請各位委員惠予支持，不吝指導。","(一)前言","臺灣是民主國家，司法獨立，必須尊重法官臨案盱衡的裁量權，而判決的法律見解不同，會造成判決落差過大，例如，本會海巡署於同（111）年查扣之「展盛98號」及「華益9號」兩艘抽砂船是否沒收判決，臺灣高等法院高雄分院與福建連江地方法院因所持之法律見解不同，導致兩案要件相當，卻有完全相反之判決。","福建連江地方法院於111年度訴字第2號刑事判決提及，船長對於其駕駛船舶航行時所管領航行於水域之船舶具有高度之事實上處分權。扣案之「展盛98號」抽砂船屬犯罪所用之物，如僅將船上人員判刑而未將船隻（生財工具）併予處置，則對於幕後操縱犯罪之人而言，其犯罪成本遠低於可能獲得之暴利，將無法遏止此類犯罪，自應依「刑法」第38條第2項前段規定，於其罪刑項下諭知沒收系爭船舶，藉以剝奪其事實上處分權，以預防並遏止犯罪。","而臺灣高等法院高雄分院112年度上訴字第144刑事判決提及，針對「華益9號」抽砂船無從認定船舶所有人為本案之共同正犯，且船長基於職務對於船舶航行之職權行使，尚與關於船舶本身財產價值之事實上處分權無關，更與「刑法」第38條第2項規定沒收供犯罪所用之物，必須「屬於犯罪行為人者」之要件不合，爰撤銷沒收之判決，不予宣告沒收。","大陸抽砂船違法抽砂破壞我國海域生態環境甚鉅，為有效防堵抽砂船違法抽砂之行為，避免犯罪行為人主張所用之抽砂船或器具非屬其所有規避罰責，本次大院委員針對「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」提案修法，就其犯罪用之船舶或其他機械設備，增訂「不問屬於犯罪行為人與否」等內容，讓遂行抽砂這種惡行的船舶，不問是否為行為人所有，都應予沒收，除可有效嚇阻違法抽砂行為外，更能完備海巡機關執行工作時所需法制。","(二)結語","大陸抽砂船體積龐大，而我海巡艦艇體積相對較小，我海巡同仁冒著生命危險執法，然而所查扣之抽砂船，因法官法律見解不同，卻有完全相反之判決，將造成未來海巡第一線同仁執法窒礙。","本次「專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」之修正，應可更完備法令規範，避免犯罪行為人主張所用之抽砂船或器具非屬其所有而規避罰責，並期藉犯罪用船舶或其機械設備之沒收，提升遏阻抽砂船違法抽砂行為之效。","以上報告敬請指教，並祝各位委員身體健康，萬事如意。謝謝！","八、國防部書面報告：","主席、各位委員先進：","今天大院內政委員會審查行政院函請審議，相關委員提案之「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法部分條文」修正草案條文第十八條，增訂供前項犯罪用之船舶或其他機械設備，不問屬於犯罪行為人與否，沒收之；其經判決沒收確定者，得視個案情節需要拍賣或變賣，有關修正條文增訂內容，本部敬表尊重。","國軍運用聯合情監偵系統，加強掌控越界船舶早期預警，並與海巡署保持聯繫與情資交換；另視海巡署需求，適時協助支援，謝謝！","九、交通部書面報告：","(一)前言","主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生：","今天應邀列席貴委員會，就貴委員會審查委員莊委員瑞雄等、蔡委員易餘等相關委員擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」共2案修正提案，提出本部建議供貴委員會參採，謹報告說明如後，敬請指教。","(二)相關委員提案修正重點及本部建議處理意見","有關莊委員瑞雄等、蔡委員易餘等相關委員擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」第十八條條文修正草案，針對該條第三項所定犯罪用之船舶或其他機械設備，增訂「不問屬於犯罪行為人與否」等內容，以完備其法令規範部分，涉及本條第2項未經許可，以船舶或其他機械設備方式，在中華民國專屬經濟海域或大陸礁層採取土石者之行為，本部尊重主管機關內政部處理意見。","(三)結語","綜上說明，本部感佩相關委員之提案，併謹提供本部建議處理意見，尚請各位委員參考。謝謝！","十、法務部書面報告：","主席、各位委員、各位女士、先生：","今天奉邀列席　大院貴委員會審查「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」等2案代表本部列席報告，並備質詢，茲報告如下，敬請指教：","(一)有關委員莊瑞雄、游毓蘭等17人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案","1.提案重點","為避免犯罪行為人主張所用之抽砂船或器具非屬其所有規避罰責，爰依刑法第38條第2項但書規定，就中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第18條第3項所定犯罪用之船舶或其他機械設備，增訂「不問屬於犯罪行為人與否，沒收之」之文字，以完備法令規範。","2.本部意見","上開草案就是類供犯罪之用之船舶或其他機械設備，改採絕對主義沒收原則，以避免困難以舉證屬於被告所有而無法沒收，致使行為人再利用此等犯罪工具而為犯罪行為，本部敬表贊同。","(二)有關委員蔡易餘、莊瑞雄、林靜儀等16人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案","1.提案重點","為避免犯罪行為人主張所用之抽砂船或器具非屬其所有規避罰責，爰依刑法第38條第2項但書規定，就中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第18條第3項所定犯罪用之船舶或其他機械設備，增訂「不問屬於犯罪行為人與否，沒收之」之文字，以完備法令規範。","2.本部意見","本部敬表贊同，理由同前所述。","以上報告，敬請主席及各位委員指教。","十一、農業部書面報告：","主席、各位委員女士、先生：","有關大院內政委員會審查委員莊瑞雄等17人、委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」，以下謹就草案中涉及本部業務部分予以說明，敬請不吝指教。","(一)「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」條文意見","1.為有效遏阻抽砂船違法抽砂行為，本條文前經行政院邀集各相關部會進行多次討論後，於110年1月27日修正公布，除大幅提高罰則外，並針對經判決確定之犯罪用船舶或其他機械設備，訂定除拍賣或變賣外，並可經專案報准後，留供公用、廢棄或其他適當處置等去化措施。","2.本次為避免犯罪行為人主張所用之抽砂或器具非屬其所有規避罰責，增列「不問屬於犯罪行為人與否，沒收之」等內容，完備本條文之規範，有助於防杜抽砂行為而影響魚類棲息環境，本部支持。","3.針對沒入之違法抽砂船舶相關去化作為，本部已規劃適合投放大型船礁之礁區，將配合海洋委員會進行去化處置，共同維護我國海域生態與環境資源。","(二)結語","本案修正目的係為完備法規規範，以避免犯罪行為人規避罰責，本部敬表支持。","十二、112年12月7日報告及詢答完畢，旋即進行審查。與會委員於聽取說明及詢答後，感認有修法之必要，應予支持。經縝密討論後，爰將全案審查完竣，擬具審查報告，提報院會討論；院會討論前，不須交由黨團協商，並推請羅召集委員美玲於院會討論時作補充說明。","十三、檢附條文對照表1份。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-12","speakers":["蔡其昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","游毓蘭"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-18"],"gazette_id":"1130102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130102_00002","1130102_00003","1130102_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議紀錄","content":"討論事項\n槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例增訂第五條之三、第九條之一、第十三條之一、第二十條之二及第二十條\n之三條文；並修正第四條、第五條之二、第十三條、第十八條、第二十條之一及第二十五條條文\n─ 完成三讀─","agenda_id":"1130102_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"149039","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149039","tool":"pyannote","id":"149039-pyannote"},"job_id":"IWCL0FTIK6SVOVk5","queued_at":"2024-06-02 15:37:36","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-02 15:37:58","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149039"},{"time":"2024-06-02 15:37:59","msg":"downloading https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/82fae47d7884a3e2cd2686a0b7bf6e416be509c1802f88631f10bfb76773b17f21fef65ff170004a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"},{"time":"2024-06-02 15:38:03","msg":"converting mp4 to wav"},{"time":"2024-06-02 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{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,335 --> 00:00:26,408\n主席各位同仁大家早安今天三讀通過槍砲彈藥刀切管制條例部分條文修正草案整理槍砲彈藥的主要組成零件材質及殺傷力的認定基準由中央主管機關公告很遺憾為採用本席的主張經槍砲彈藥審認爭議\n\n2\n00:00:30,451 --> 00:00:44,316\n諮詢小組審議後再由中央主管機關公告之﹐而非由行政機關單獨認定本期期盼主管機關日後能徵詢﹐各界專家學者甚至相關團體的意見﹐\n\n3\n00:00:47,036 --> 00:01:08,981\n並公正、客觀的立場加以認定．參採國際標準與時俱進．渡各界疑慮本席修法主張爭議諮詢小組的組成．應聘相關機關代表及專家學者．外聘委員人數不得少於全體委員的二分之一．\n\n4\n00:01:09,701 --> 00:01:31,935\n雖然內政部林佑昌部長在委員會審查時支持本席看法並建議調整外聘委員人數不得少於全體委員的三分之一但卻未明定於修正的條文中相關的組織運作則授權由中央主管機關定制\n\n5\n00:01:32,595 --> 00:01:50,191\n希望日後訂定相關執法時﹐能確實明文規定外界委員的比例﹐以維護審議的專業、中立、客觀本條例雖然三讀通過﹐但部分民間團體仍有疑議\n\n6\n00:01:51,112 --> 00:02:01,986\n本席希望主管機關能夠多加與民眾溝通消弭爭議明確執法願天佑台灣人民平安謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7335\t26408\t主席各位同仁大家早安今天三讀通過槍砲彈藥刀切管制條例部分條文修正草案整理槍砲彈藥的主要組成零件材質及殺傷力的認定基準由中央主管機關公告很遺憾為採用本席的主張經槍砲彈藥審認爭議\n30451\t44316\t諮詢小組審議後再由中央主管機關公告之﹐而非由行政機關單獨認定本期期盼主管機關日後能徵詢﹐各界專家學者甚至相關團體的意見﹐\n47036\t68981\t並公正、客觀的立場加以認定．參採國際標準與時俱進．渡各界疑慮本席修法主張爭議諮詢小組的組成．應聘相關機關代表及專家學者．外聘委員人數不得少於全體委員的二分之一．\n69701\t91935\t雖然內政部林佑昌部長在委員會審查時支持本席看法並建議調整外聘委員人數不得少於全體委員的三分之一但卻未明定於修正的條文中相關的組織運作則授權由中央主管機關定制\n92595\t110191\t希望日後訂定相關執法時﹐能確實明文規定外界委員的比例﹐以維護審議的專業、中立、客觀本條例雖然三讀通過﹐但部分民間團體仍有疑議\n111112\t121986\t本席希望主管機關能夠多加與民眾溝通消弭爭議明確執法願天佑台灣人民平安謝謝\n","txt":"主席各位同仁大家早安今天三讀通過槍砲彈藥刀切管制條例部分條文修正草案整理槍砲彈藥的主要組成零件材質及殺傷力的認定基準由中央主管機關公告很遺憾為採用本席的主張經槍砲彈藥審認爭議\n諮詢小組審議後再由中央主管機關公告之﹐而非由行政機關單獨認定本期期盼主管機關日後能徵詢﹐各界專家學者甚至相關團體的意見﹐\n並公正、客觀的立場加以認定．參採國際標準與時俱進．渡各界疑慮本席修法主張爭議諮詢小組的組成．應聘相關機關代表及專家學者．外聘委員人數不得少於全體委員的二分之一．\n雖然內政部林佑昌部長在委員會審查時支持本席看法並建議調整外聘委員人數不得少於全體委員的三分之一但卻未明定於修正的條文中相關的組織運作則授權由中央主管機關定制\n希望日後訂定相關執法時﹐能確實明文規定外界委員的比例﹐以維護審議的專業、中立、客觀本條例雖然三讀通過﹐但部分民間團體仍有疑議\n本席希望主管機關能夠多加與民眾溝通消弭爭議明確執法願天佑台灣人民平安謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.335 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