{"id":149078,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149078","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7594f10b9bbee689529091bfaf1f64a6826b98f121effac12be4303bcf228b50b8c13e2482b2d9d15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱臣遠","委員發言時間":"09:44:35 - 10:00:18","影片長度":"00:15:43","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":1,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1},"date":"2024-01-09","duration":943,"end_time":"2024-01-09T10:00:18+08:00","start_time":"2024-01-09T09:44:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":235,"blocks":[["邱委員臣遠：（9時44分）謝謝主席，我們邀請陳建仁院長。"],["主席：陳院長請。"],["陳院長建仁：邱委員早。"],["邱委員臣遠：院長早安。今天火氣有點大，稍微冷靜一下。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，因為我覺得我們今天如果大家都來談高端……"],["邱委員臣遠：我想今天我們還是針對議題來討論，昨天其實我們立法院召開朝野協商，當時就針對高端合約是不是要公布，我想還是回到今天的重點。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["邱委員臣遠：當時我們協商的結論，我們是希望行政院在昨天下午的5點就提供相關今天專案報告的書面資料，我想這個不過分吧？"],["陳院長建仁：你們昨天才告訴我，那書面資料這麼厚，但是當時也……"],["邱委員臣遠：但是你知道我什麼時候才收到嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：以往所有的專案報告都是早上提出來。"],["邱委員臣遠：今天早上8點15分才送到我辦公室。"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！以往的專案報告都是這樣。"],["邱委員臣遠：依法專案報告，請問一下，這個報告才11頁，你需要到今天早上8點15分？9點就要進行院會的專報……"],["陳院長建仁：所有的資料都需要再三查證……"],["邱委員臣遠：9點就要進行專案報告了，你8點15分才送到委員辦公室，請問一下這樣子是面對立法院、面對民意的態度嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我們以往的專案報告都是在當天……"],["邱委員臣遠：院長，我建議你，你如果要繼續這樣子，用這樣的態度，這跟你平常真的不太一樣，如果你要繼續用這樣的態度，我想全體的國人都在看，今天大家對於高端的意見……"],["陳院長建仁：我們是以很審慎的態度……"],["邱委員臣遠：大家的質疑，看的是政府面對民意的態度，你面對中華民國最高民意殿堂，你今天這樣子的態度是對的嗎？11頁的報告，整個高端採購500萬劑的疫苗，花了國人40億的公帑，打了三百多萬劑，銷毀了……"],["陳院長建仁：保護了三百多萬人的生命。"],["邱委員臣遠：沒有錯，但是相關國際採購的疫苗，今天有相關已經可以使用的狀況下，你的EUA，你實際在推動的過程中有這麼多的疑慮，甚至後續股價的異常，這個都還沒有談到，今天光是針對一個採購合約的公開都沒有辦法來完成，整個40億的公帑銷毀了12億，總共一百多萬劑的疫苗，你今天給我11頁的專案報告，你還要拖到早上8點15分才要送到我辦公室，這是對的嗎？這是你面對民意的態度嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：以往專案報告都是這樣。"],["邱委員臣遠：如果你今天繼續這樣下去，我可以告訴你，今天這個專案報告、今天這個臨時會等於是白開了，全體的國人都在看，為什麼？因為今天的結論就是你們不願意公開，你告訴我因為高端董事會不同意……"],["陳院長建仁：我們講得很清楚嘛！"],["邱委員臣遠：你們還在溝通、還在要求，但是我必須告訴你，難道政府完全對它沒有約束力嗎？難道完全都沒有辦法要求嗎？這個案子不是1天、2天，你的合約不能公開是因為價格的問題、商業的問題、保密的問題，我都瞭解，我是海外臺商出身，我非常清楚，但是那是在疫情期間，當時市場上有相對競爭的時候，但是疫情解封到現在已經一年多了、已經一年多了，很多的國家也陸續有公開……"],["陳院長建仁：當時的合約是簽5年。"],["邱委員臣遠：而且目前國內的民意……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你沒有給我講話的機會。"],["邱委員臣遠：國內的民意大家是希望公開的……"],["陳院長建仁：當時簽約是5年保密，所以政府要維持政府的誠信。"],["邱委員臣遠：5年保密，那這中間不能溝通嗎？為什麼現在有六成的民意希望政黨輪替？我今天不想在這邊講政治，但是我希望你很正視這個問題，我可以告訴你，在政治上的立場，你不公開對你們是比較傷啦！老實說是這樣子啦！可是今天你的態度讓我非常的失望……"],["陳院長建仁：賴副總統說要公開，政府也要公開，但是政府必須要維持誠信。"],["邱委員臣遠：我告訴你程序是什麼，你今天包含法務部在105年的函釋就有提到「得標廠商投標單、清單載有投標者投標（履約）內容，乃民眾監督履約之工具，尚非得為拒絕申請政府資訊之理由。」這個部分很清楚啦！其實如果涉及跟民眾相關權益有關的，你是可以要求它的啊！法務部已經函釋啦！難道完全對高端公司都沒有相關的約束力？今天老實講，難道一間公司用人民的納稅錢來做這個疫苗採購、國產疫苗的發展、國產疫苗的開發，我們都支持，這個是整個國家的戰略物資、國家安全……"],["陳院長建仁：並不是這樣喔！"],["邱委員臣遠：這個我們都同意，但是過程大家可以這樣子嗎？你先告訴我，為什麼沒有辦法要求它公開？你能不能在這邊具體承諾到底什麼時候要公開？"],["陳院長建仁：我講過了嘛！賴副總統主張要公開，我們政府也主張要公開，但是因為政府是簽約雙方的一方，需要維持簽約的保密協定，但是已經努力的來跟高端講，請它來公開……"],["邱委員臣遠：它到底不公開的主要原因是什麼？你們溝通的內容、溝通的細節、溝通的結果，你可不可以跟國人在這邊簡單報告？為什麼它不公開，它的理由是什麼？價格不是都已經公開了嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：它需要經過董事會的同意，它需要召開董事會。"],["邱委員臣遠：841塊一劑嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：它需要召開董事會來決定。"],["邱委員臣遠：開個董事會有這麼困難嗎？你們不能積極的要求、積極的來溝通嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：那就要問高端。所以我是覺得……"],["邱委員臣遠：所以今天給國人的感覺就是行政院、衛福部、高端，大家在互相甩鍋，雙面手法嘛！拖過去嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有要拖，你這樣子是錯假的，這是錯的。"],["邱委員臣遠：什麼時候開個董事會這麼困難？立法院臨時會都可以開了，各黨朝野大家現在……"],["陳院長建仁：在立法院也……"],["邱委員臣遠：大家都可以來開會了，為什麼高端不行？"],["陳院長建仁：在立法院也召開過。"],["邱委員臣遠：為什麼高端不行？為什麼……"],["陳院長建仁：你要給我講話嗎？"],["邱委員臣遠：好。"],["陳院長建仁：立法院也召開了調閱小組的委員會，所有高端的疫苗，大家也在那個小組裡面有看過了，而且監察院也調過這個資料，檢調單位也有這個資料，所以這一件事情……"],["邱委員臣遠：沒錯啊！63案簽結。"],["陳院長建仁：如果需要調查的時候，為了全民的健康，我們當然需要這樣做……"],["邱委員臣遠：63案簽結，但是你們資訊就不公開啊！"],["陳院長建仁：當時我們有保密協定在，政府有負責保密的誠信的態度……"],["邱委員臣遠：你就繼續保密吧，我建議你繼續保密，你看國人會怎麼看今天執政黨處理這件事情。"],["陳院長建仁：我們現在已經有在溝通了，我們現在已經溝通，和高端……一起來公開……"],["邱委員臣遠：政治的核心在執行力，成功的人找方法，失敗的人找藉口……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有找藉口，完全沒有找藉口！"],["邱委員臣遠：我想如果你要用這樣的態度來面對民意，院長，我不想跟你在這邊口舌之爭，但是你今天這樣子的態度，讓我非常的失望，從今天行政院你們的聯絡人告訴我們的原因，為什麼今天早上才送到辦公室，因為長官說沒有辦法提供，昨天沒有辦法提供。請問這是哪一位長官？"],["陳院長建仁：我們沒有說沒有辦法提供。"],["邱委員臣遠：哪一位長官？"],["陳院長建仁：我要跟委員講，我們昨天開會開到了晚上的時候，還在準備這些……"],["邱委員臣遠：所以你們還是要互相套招，然後11頁的……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有套招，你這一句話……"],["邱委員臣遠：那我問你，為什麼11頁你要給我搞1天？"],["陳院長建仁：所有的資料都要比對……"],["邱委員臣遠：請問你裡面有什麼資訊內容？"],["陳院長建仁：所以你這樣講是不合理的說法……"],["邱委員臣遠：什麼叫不合邏輯？"],["陳院長建仁：因為裡面所有的資料要一一查證……"],["邱委員臣遠：你今天這樣子面對中華民國立法院最高民意殿堂，你11頁的總共40億的公帑，難道1頁就占了4億元相關的公帑，是這樣子來計算嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：當時高端……"],["邱委員臣遠：我告訴你啦，今天民進黨在國會實質過半啦，今天你們所有調閱的小組、所有相關提供的資料都是遮蔽，遮蔽至少三分之一以上啦，相關重要資訊都遮蔽，這要怎麼審查？你告訴我！只要不同意的全部都透過表決把我們封殺掉……"],["陳院長建仁：剛才也提到所有資料在國外公布的時候，重要的訊息……"],["邱委員臣遠：你們民進黨還有臉叫國人讓你們實質過半？實質過半就是實質護航啦！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，幸好是國會過半啦，如果照當時，當時貴黨就主張不要開發國內的疫苗，要開始……"],["邱委員臣遠：我們什麼時候說不用開發國內疫苗？我在這邊質詢，你去調資料，我每次質詢高端，我第一件事就是說我們支持國產疫苗發展，不要亂扣帽子！"],["陳院長建仁：當時有多少在野黨……"],["邱委員臣遠：不要亂扣帽子！"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有，扣帽子是你啊！不是我啊！"],["邱委員臣遠：扣你什麼帽子？你今天這個11頁的報告，你不是早上8點15分才送來嗎？這合理嗎？你給我45分鐘看，我要怎麼質詢？"],["陳院長建仁：是，但是我們所有專案報告，以往送來的時間都是在報告的當時送過來的。"],["邱委員臣遠：什麼叫當時送過來？這個案子是今天才出來的嗎？這已經兩年多了，大家都在關心，社會高度關注，11頁的報告，你今天8點15分才送來？"],["陳院長建仁：但是你要求這個報告，是昨天才做決定的。"],["邱委員臣遠：昨天我們朝野協商，民進黨黨團也同意，希望5點，我本來還希望你們中午，昨天5點你們就要送過來，你們沒有送過來。"],["陳院長建仁：你是昨天才決定的，我們昨天忙到晚上11點才完成。"],["邱委員臣遠：我今天早上7點就到辦公室等你們的報告，我還要等到8點15分，我今天院會第一個簽到。"],["陳院長建仁：我們昨天晚上忙到11點才把這個報告給完成，所以委員你講的，我沒辦法同意……"],["邱委員臣遠：我可以告訴你，院長，你的報告結論就是不公開……"],["陳院長建仁：要公開。"],["邱委員臣遠：全部以高端董事會的決議為主，只要它不同意，你就沒有辦法公開，你對它完全沒皮條，國人的訴求，你沒有辦法回應，簡單來講就是這樣子，今天給我們的結論就是這樣子，請問一下，我們在這邊質詢，我們這樣有意義嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我想……"],["邱委員臣遠：法務部105年的函釋就講得很清楚了，政府是可以去要求的，如果你什麼事情都要推給民間，這樣子國人能夠接受嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：政府需要講誠信。"],["邱委員臣遠：而且這個相關資訊，如果今天是在疫情緊繃的期間，它有國際上採購、商業秘密、價格之間的競爭，我們都同意，今天解封已經一年多了，國人有知的權利，而且這件事情是賴清德副總統，也是民進黨總統候選人在總統辯論會上面，他也主張的。"],["陳院長建仁：當時簽約的時候，就是5年的保密協定……"],["邱委員臣遠：今天你是不是也應該回應民意？如果你們今天要用這樣的態度……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我可以回答嗎？"],["邱委員臣遠：你請說。"],["陳院長建仁：委員你說我們要尊重合約，我們合約當時簽訂的就是5年的保密協定、保密條款，所以我們是應該要遵照這個5年保密條款的方式來進行。"],["邱委員臣遠：好，那你就繼續保存5年，然後資料再繼續封存30年！"],["陳院長建仁：但是我剛才講得很清楚……"],["邱委員臣遠：你看看全體國人的感受是怎麼樣，今天高端到最後銷毀這麼多劑，甚至很多國際的認證，到日本還要去補打，這是國人實際的感受，我們不想去污名化，但是這是事實。包含相關的股價，我們一再……"],["陳院長建仁：高端的疫苗我剛才已經報告得很清楚，真實世界的數據出來，它和BNT、莫德納是一樣好的保護，當時就是因為有很多人在抹黑高端，讓很多可以打高端減少副作用的人沒有，然後偏偏來鼓勵說要打科興、打國藥，結果科興、國藥的免疫原性、它的抗體產生的比例是所有疫苗最低的，比AZ還低。"],["邱委員臣遠：我能理解。"],["陳院長建仁：高端是最高的。"],["邱委員臣遠：涉及國家安全我們都同意……"],["陳院長建仁：所以當時我們去分析打高端以後，打高端的人他的保護作用跟BNT和莫德納是一樣……"],["邱委員臣遠：國產疫苗本來就是戰略物資，本來就是國家安全的重要戰略物資，我們都理解，但是……"],["陳院長建仁：但是高端被抹黑以後很多人不敢打高端，害死了很多人。"],["邱委員臣遠：但是高端的整個過程、國人的疑慮、採購的金額、相關合約的內容、甚至股價的異常波動，中間有沒有委託中資公司「丘以思」來做三期臨床試驗，這些都是國人需要瞭解的，但是幾次的報告沒有辦法講清楚、說明白。"],["陳院長建仁：臨床試驗的結果早就出來了……"],["邱委員臣遠：到了昨天協商要開臨時會，你的報告還要早上8點15分才送到立法院！"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你這講得都不對。"],["邱委員臣遠：我又不對，你都對！"],["陳院長建仁：我就講，動物實驗的結果早就發表了啊！臨床一期的結果早就出來了啊！"],["邱委員臣遠：我現在在告訴你高端合約的解密，相關的效力，我們沒有在跟你質疑效力，我從頭到尾都沒有跟你質疑疫苗效力……"],["陳院長建仁：真實世界的效果也出來了。"],["邱委員臣遠：你不要再聲東擊西了，院長！不要這樣子，好不好？我現在是跟你講今天專報的內容，相關合約採購的目標什麼時候要公布？什麼時候高端能夠取得共識？什麼時候能讓國人有知的權利？這才是今天專報的重點，我沒在跟你討論疫苗的效力，我拜託一下！"],["陳院長建仁：我剛才講過了，我們正在請高端儘快地公布啊！"],["邱委員臣遠：你剛剛還在糾正台上的委員。"],["陳院長建仁：我們希望高端能很好地回應啊！"],["邱委員臣遠：我現在聽起來，合約是不可能公布了啦！至少在今天沒有結論啦！"],["陳院長建仁：這是你的講法。"],["邱委員臣遠：至少在今天沒有結論，我這樣聽起來啦！我希望你們繼續去要求，這個法務部的函釋，我希望你們仔細去看，你們用這個函釋是不是能對高端公司進行相關的要求。","另外一個部分，我們還是一再強調，我們會支持政府的本土生技產業，但是我們不希望有人利用這樣的正當性，趁機哄抬股價，我們不希望有人在這中間牟取不當的利益。高端股價的問題，從30塊附近漲起，在短短一年半就暴漲逾13倍，2021年5月更衝上了417元，尤其政府高層多次不避嫌，在高端股跌停的時候還出面呼籲國產疫苗要有信心，甚至帶頭打高端，我想這個部分是不是能請院長解釋相關的股價異常波動上，有沒有相關的問題。"],["陳院長建仁：委員是專家，我跟你講，全世界……"],["邱委員臣遠：不會啦！你比較專家啦！"],["陳院長建仁：如果你承認我是專家，全世界在發展疫苗的人，在發展的過程中，當動物實驗成功、臨床實驗成功的時候，那個股價就會一直上升，但是實驗失敗的時候就會下降，所以那個上升……"],["邱委員臣遠：但那個比例是正常的嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：你看莫德納、你看BNT的股價變化是怎麼樣，所以藥物的開發，本來就是會隨著開發的不同期程，成功的時候它的股價就會一直上升，這個是很正常的事情，所以不要懷疑它。那你如果講說，有沒有什麼涉及不法，實際上我們檢調單位已經查過，士林地檢署對於有一位專家審查委員洩密高端實驗好的結果給他的太太，結果被判刑了3個月，緩刑兩年，我想你也很清楚嘛！所以我們對於所有這些不法的事情，都有在查證、都有在偵辦，所以這一件事情很重要，而且在立法院衛環委員會實際上他們也有調閱相關的資料，你說相關的資料在當時要提供說明，也提供說明，開了這麼多的次會議、調閱小組開了這麼多次的會議，也看了合約，結果當時怎麼會沒有意見？現在選舉到了，又再來吵這個事情。"],["邱委員臣遠：意見都很多啦！只是都會被民進黨在國會直接表決封殺掉。沒關係，院長，我剩下30秒，我在這邊還是誠懇地呼籲，我希望你們用謙卑的態度來面對民意。"],["陳院長建仁：我們一向謙卑。"],["邱委員臣遠：民意既然想要公開，希望國人有知的權利，包括賴副總統也講了，我希望你們儘速、儘速、愈快愈好。"],["陳院長建仁：我們會愈快愈好。"],["邱委員臣遠：高端的問題，我這邊再提點，包含合約採購內容的公開、中間EUA的審查，甚至有沒有相關股價的異常波動，其實這個是國人相對關心的議題，我希望你們以嚴正的態度面對，謝謝！"],["陳院長建仁：我們一向很慎重在面對。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員。","接下來請曾委員銘宗質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"meet_id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林俊憲","賴士葆","邱泰源","王鴻薇","蔡適應","吳斯懷","洪申翰","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","李德維","吳玉琴","林為洲"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-01-09"],"gazette_id":"1130301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130301_00002","1130301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報\n告並備質詢─ 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00:00:56,878\n邱院長院長早安今天火氣有點大因為我覺得我們今天如果大家都來談高端我們還是針對議題來討論那昨天其實我們立法院召開朝野協商當時就針對這個高端合約是不是要公布我想還是回到今天的重點當時我們協商的結論我們是希望行政院在昨天下午的5點就提供相關今天專案報告的書面資料我想這個不過分吧\n\n3\n00:00:57,778 --> 00:01:09,008\n對你們昨天才告訴我那你那個數據資料這麼獲益吧但是你知道我們什麼時候才收到嗎今天早上8點15分才送到我辦公室對那依法的專案報告請問一下這個報告才11頁你需要到今天早上8點159點就要進行院會的專案報告9點就要\n\n4\n00:01:22,459 --> 00:01:41,355\n進行專案報告了你8點15才送到委員辦公室請問一下這樣子是面對立法院面對民意的態度嗎我想這個院長我建議你好你如果要繼續這樣子用這樣的態度這跟你平常真的不太一樣如果你要繼續用這樣的態度我想全體的國人都在看\n\n5\n00:01:41,795 --> 00:02:00,112\n今天大家對於高端的意見大家的質疑看的是政府面對民意的態度你面對中華民國最高民意殿堂你今天這樣子的態度是對的嗎11月的報告整個高端採購500萬劑的疫苗花了國人40億的公帑\n\n6\n00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:27,667\n消毀了300多萬人的生命沒有錯但是相關國際採購的疫苗今天有相關已經可以使用的狀況下你的EUA你的實際在推動的過程中這麼多的疑慮甚至他後續的股價的異常這個都還沒有談到今天光是針對一個採購合約的一個公開都沒有辦法來完成\n\n7\n00:02:28,107 --> 00:02:44,410\n整個40億的公帑銷毀了12億總共100多萬劑的疫苗你今天給我11頁的專案報告你還要拖到早上8點15才送到我辦公室這是對的嗎這是你面對民意的態度嗎如果你今天繼續這樣下去我可以告訴你\n\n8\n00:02:44,890 --> 00:03:08,889\n今天這個專案報告今天這個臨時會等於是白開的全體的國人都在開為什麼因為今天的結論就是你們不願意公開你告訴我因為高端董事會不同意你們還在溝通還在要求但是我必須告訴你難道政府完全對他們沒有約束力嗎難道完全都沒有辦法要求嗎這個案子不是一天兩天你的合約不能公開是因為價格的問題商業的問題保密的問題\n\n9\n00:03:10,430 --> 00:03:29,001\n我都了解我是海外台商出身我非常清楚但是那是在疫情期間當時市場上有相對競爭的時候但是疫情解封到現在已經一年多了已經一年多了很多的國家也陸續的公開而且目前國內的民意國內的民意大家是希望公開\n\n10\n00:03:30,962 --> 00:03:34,604\n所以政府要維持政府的戰線政府也要公開但是政府必要維持誠信我告訴你誠信是什麼你今天包含法務部在105年的韓誓這邊就有提到\n\n11\n00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:26,887\n得標的廠商投標單清單載有投標者投標履約的內容乃民眾監督履約之工具尚非為拒絕申請政府資訊之理由這個部分很清楚啦其實如果涉及跟民眾相關權益有關的你是可以要求大家法務部已經含釋了難道完全對高端公司都沒有相關的約束力難道一間公司用今天老實講用人民的納稅權來做這個疫苗採購\n\n12\n00:04:28,747 --> 00:04:29,088\n我想過了嘛\n\n13\n00:04:48,042 --> 00:05:08,275\n賴副總統主張要公開我們政府也主張要公開但是因為政府是簽約雙方的一方需要維持這個簽約的保密協定但是已經努力的來跟高端講請他來公開他到底不公開的主要原因是什麼你們溝通的內容溝通的細節溝通的結果你可不可以跟國人在這邊簡單報告\n\n14\n00:05:09,836 --> 00:05:31,588\n為什麼他不公開?他的理由是什麼?價格不是都已經公開了嗎?840億塊一季嗎?他需要召開董事會來決定開個董事會有這麼困難嗎?那是要問高端嗎?要問高端所以我是覺得所以今天給國人的感覺就是行政院衛福部高端大家在互相甩鍋雙面手法嘛拖過去嘛沒有要拖\n\n15\n00:05:32,719 --> 00:06:00,869\n什麼時候開個董事會這麼困難立法院臨時會都可以開了各黨朝野大家現在都可以來開會了為什麼高端不行立法院也召開過立法院也召開了這個調閱小組的委員會所有的高端的疫苗大家也在那個小組裡面有看過了監察院也調過這個資料\n\n16\n00:06:02,629 --> 00:06:19,568\n這一個檢調單位也有這個資料所以這一件事情是如果有需要調查的時候為了要全民的健康利益我們當然需要要這樣做但是呢當時我們有保密協定在保密協定政府有負責保密的\n\n17\n00:06:20,809 --> 00:06:47,000\n那你就繼續保密吧我建議你就繼續保密啊你看國人會怎麼看你們你看國人會怎麼看今天執政黨處理這件事情政治的核心在執行力啦成功的人找方法失敗找藉口我想如果沒有這樣的態度用這樣的態度來面對民意必須院長我不想跟你在這邊口舌之爭但是你今天的這樣子的態度讓我非常的失望從你們今天行政院你們的聯絡人告訴我們的原因是什麼\n\n18\n00:06:47,933 --> 00:07:08,784\n為什麼今天早上才送到辦公室因為長官說沒有辦法提供昨天沒有辦法提供請問這是哪一位長官我們沒有說沒有辦法提供我要跟你們講我們昨天開會開到了晚上的時候還在準備所以你們還是要互相套招然後11月的沒有套招我不是讓我問你為什麼11月你要給我搞一天\n\n19\n00:07:10,265 --> 00:07:10,465\n當時高端\n\n20\n00:07:30,806 --> 00:07:44,879\n我告訴你啦今天民進黨在國會實質過半啦實質過半今天你們所有的道業小組所有的相關提供的資料都是遮蔽啦遮蔽至少三分之一以上啦相關的重要資訊都遮蔽這要怎麼審查你告訴我\n\n21\n00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:57,702\n只要不同意的全部都要透過表決幫我們封殺掉剛才你還有你們民進黨還有臉叫國會這樣不能讓你們實質過半實質過半就是實質護航啊沒有幸好是國會過半啦如果到當時呢當時在貴黨就主張說不要開發國內的疫苗我們什麼時候說不用開發國內疫苗我在這邊質詢你去調資料我每次質詢高端我第一件事情是說我們支持國產疫苗發展不要放靠報紙\n\n22\n00:08:16,127 --> 00:08:34,546\n當時有多少在野黨不要亂扣帽子扣帽子是你啊扣你什麼帽子你今天11月的這個報告你不是早上8點15分回來送來嗎這合理嗎你給我45分鐘看我要怎麼質詢我們所有的專案報告以往送來的時間都是在報告的當時送過來的\n\n23\n00:08:35,367 --> 00:08:37,368\n昨天晚上7點就到辦公室在等你們的報告我還要等到8點15\n\n24\n00:08:58,939 --> 00:09:23,434\n我們昨天晚上忙到11點才把這個報告給完成所以在委員你講的我會告訴院長你的報告結論就是不公開全部以高端董事會的決議為主只要他不同意你就沒有辦法公開你對他完全沒批調國人的訴求你沒有辦法回應簡單來講就是這樣子今天給我們的結論就是這樣子請問一下我們在這邊質詢我們這樣有意義嗎\n\n25\n00:09:26,069 --> 00:09:31,394\n我想法務部的105年的函式就講得很清楚了政府是可以去要求的\n\n26\n00:09:32,130 --> 00:09:58,169\n那如果你什麼事情都要推給民間那這樣子國人能夠接受嗎而且這個相關的資訊如果說今天是在疫情緊繃的期間他有國際上採購商業秘密價格之間的競爭這個我們都同意今天解封已經一年多了國人有資的權利而且這件事情是賴清德副總統也是我們的民進黨總統候選人他在總統辯論會上面他也主張的今天你是不是也應該來去回應民意\n\n27\n00:10:01,852 --> 00:10:20,568\n應該來去回應民意那如果你們要今天用這樣的態度委員你說我們要尊重合約那我們合約簽當時簽訂的就是5年的保密協定保密條款所以我們是應該要遵照這個5年的保密條款的方式來進行那你就繼續保存5年吧\n\n28\n00:10:20,868 --> 00:10:23,610\n但是我剛才講得很清楚啊我剛才講得很清楚我剛才講得很清楚我可以講話\n\n29\n00:10:45,223 --> 00:10:56,813\n高端的疫苗我剛才已經報告得很清楚真實世界的數據出來他是跟BNT跟莫德納是一樣好的保護當時就是因為有很多人在\n\n30\n00:10:57,774 --> 00:11:16,662\n某黑高端讓很多可以打高端減少副作用的人沒有然後偏偏來鼓勵說要打科興打國藥結果那個科興國藥我跟委員報告科興國藥的免疫原性它的抗體產生的比例是所有的疫苗最低的\n\n31\n00:11:17,642 --> 00:11:25,727\n我們理解涉及國家安全我們都同意涉及國產疫苗本來就是戰略物資本來就是國家安全的重要戰略物資我們都理解但是高端整個的過程國人的餘率採購的金額相關合約的內容\n\n32\n00:11:38,053 --> 00:11:38,834\n委員你這講的都不對的啦\n\n33\n00:11:58,348 --> 00:12:13,564\n我又不對你都對好我講啊動物食業的結果早就發表了我們現在在告訴你高端合約的解密相關的效力我們沒有在跟你質疑效力喔我從頭到尾沒有在跟你質疑疫苗效力喔你不要在這個聲東擊西啦院長\n\n34\n00:12:16,087 --> 00:12:38,600\n不要這樣子好不好我們現在跟你講今天專報的內容相關合約採購的目標什麼時候要公布什麼時候能夠高端取得共識什麼時候能讓國人有自的權利這才是今天專報的重點我沒有在跟你討論疫苗的效力我拜託一下你剛剛還在糾正這個台上的委員另外一個部分除了在這個我今天我這樣聽起來合約是不可能公布的啦\n\n35\n00:12:44,623 --> 00:13:06,749\n至少在今天沒有結論啦我這樣聽起來啦我希望你們繼續來去要求這個法務部的含釋我希望你們仔細去看你們來用這個含釋是不是能對高端公司來進行相關的要求另外一個部分我們還是一再強調我們會支持政府的本土生技產業但是我們不希望有人利用這樣的正當性趁機哄抬股價\n\n36\n00:13:07,429 --> 00:13:21,599\n我們不希望有人在這中間謀取不斷的利益那高端股價的問題從他30塊附近漲起在短短一年半就暴漲逾13倍2021年5月更衝上417元尤其政府高層多次不避嫌\n\n37\n00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:49,122\n高端股跌停的時候還出面呼籲國產疫苗要有信心甚至帶頭打高端我想這個部分是不是請院長你解釋相關的股價異常波動上有沒有相關的問題好委員你是專家啦我跟你講全世界不會啦你比較專家啦好那你如果承認我是專家全世界在發展疫苗的人在發展的過程當中當動物實驗成功臨床實驗成功的時候那個股價就會一直上升\n\n38\n00:13:49,922 --> 00:14:17,133\n但是呢如果實驗失敗的時候就會下降所以那個上升你看莫德納你看BNT的股價的變化是怎麼樣所以藥物的開發本來就是會隨著開發的不同期程它有成功的時候呢它就會股價會一直上升這個是很正常的事情所以不要懷疑它那你如果講到說有沒有什麼涉及不法實際上我們檢調單位已經查過這個士林的地檢署對於\n\n39\n00:14:18,894 --> 00:14:33,711\n有一位專家審查委員洩密這個高端實驗的好的結果給他的太太結果呢被判刑了三個月要緩刑兩年我想你也很清楚嘛所以我們對於所有這些不法的事情都有在查證喔都有在這個偵辦那\n\n40\n00:14:36,400 --> 00:15:05,479\n所以這一件事情很重要而且立法院在衛黃委員會實際上呢他們也有調閱相關的這個資料那你說相關的資料在當時要提供說明也提供說明開了這麼多次的會議調閱小組開了這麼多次的會議也看了合約結果當時怎麼會沒有意見現在選舉到了又再來吵這個事情意見都很多啦只是都會被民進黨在國會直接表決封殺掉沒關係院長我剩下30秒我在這邊還是誠懇的呼籲我希望你們\n\n41\n00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:07,580\n我希望你們嚴正的態度面對\n\n42\n00:15:43,231 --> 00:15:43,253\n好\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n19425\t20849\t謝謝主席 我們邀請陳建仁院長陳院長請\n29130\t56878\t邱院長院長早安今天火氣有點大因為我覺得我們今天如果大家都來談高端我們還是針對議題來討論那昨天其實我們立法院召開朝野協商當時就針對這個高端合約是不是要公布我想還是回到今天的重點當時我們協商的結論我們是希望行政院在昨天下午的5點就提供相關今天專案報告的書面資料我想這個不過分吧\n57778\t69008\t對 你們昨天才告訴我 那你那個數據資料這麼獲益吧但是你知道我們什麼時候才收到嗎今天早上8點15分才送到我辦公室對 那依法的專案報告請問一下 這個報告才11頁你需要到今天早上8點15 9點就要進行院會的專案報告 9點就要\n82459\t101355\t進行專案報告了你8點15才送到委員辦公室請問一下這樣子是面對立法院面對民意的態度嗎我想這個院長我建議你好你如果要繼續這樣子用這樣的態度這跟你平常真的不太一樣如果你要繼續用這樣的態度我想全體的國人都在看\n101795\t120112\t今天大家對於高端的意見大家的質疑看的是政府面對民意的態度你面對中華民國最高民意殿堂你今天這樣子的態度是對的嗎11月的報告整個高端採購500萬劑的疫苗花了國人40億的公帑\n122080\t147667\t消毀了300多萬人的生命沒有錯但是相關國際採購的疫苗今天有相關已經可以使用的狀況下你的EUA你的實際在推動的過程中這麼多的疑慮甚至他後續的股價的異常這個都還沒有談到今天光是針對一個採購合約的一個公開都沒有辦法來完成\n148107\t164410\t整個40億的公帑銷毀了12億總共100多萬劑的疫苗你今天給我11頁的專案報告你還要拖到早上8點15才送到我辦公室這是對的嗎這是你面對民意的態度嗎如果你今天繼續這樣下去我可以告訴你\n164890\t188889\t今天這個專案報告今天這個臨時會等於是白開的全體的國人都在開為什麼因為今天的結論就是你們不願意公開你告訴我因為高端董事會不同意你們還在溝通還在要求但是我必須告訴你難道政府完全對他們沒有約束力嗎難道完全都沒有辦法要求嗎這個案子不是一天兩天你的合約不能公開是因為價格的問題商業的問題保密的問題\n190430\t209001\t我都了解我是海外台商出身我非常清楚但是那是在疫情期間當時市場上有相對競爭的時候但是疫情解封到現在已經一年多了已經一年多了很多的國家也陸續的公開而且目前國內的民意國內的民意大家是希望公開\n210962\t214604\t所以政府要維持政府的戰線政府也要公開但是政府必要維持誠信我告訴你誠信是什麼你今天包含法務部在105年的韓誓這邊就有提到\n240920\t266887\t得標的廠商投標單清單載有投標者投標履約的內容乃民眾監督履約之工具尚非為拒絕申請政府資訊之理由這個部分很清楚啦其實如果涉及跟民眾相關權益有關的你是可以要求大家法務部已經含釋了難道完全對高端公司都沒有相關的約束力難道一間公司用今天老實講用人民的納稅權來做這個疫苗採購\n268747\t269088\t我想過了嘛\n288042\t308275\t賴副總統主張要公開我們政府也主張要公開但是因為政府是簽約雙方的一方需要維持這個簽約的保密協定但是已經努力的來跟高端講請他來公開他到底不公開的主要原因是什麼你們溝通的內容溝通的細節溝通的結果你可不可以跟國人在這邊簡單報告\n309836\t331588\t為什麼他不公開?他的理由是什麼?價格不是都已經公開了嗎?840億塊一季嗎?他需要召開董事會來決定開個董事會有這麼困難嗎?那是要問高端嗎?要問高端所以我是覺得所以今天給國人的感覺就是行政院衛福部高端大家在互相甩鍋雙面手法嘛拖過去嘛沒有要拖\n332719\t360869\t什麼時候開個董事會這麼困難立法院臨時會都可以開了各黨朝野大家現在都可以來開會了為什麼高端不行立法院也召開過立法院也召開了這個調閱小組的委員會所有的高端的疫苗大家也在那個小組裡面有看過了監察院也調過這個資料\n362629\t379568\t這一個檢調單位也有這個資料所以這一件事情是如果有需要調查的時候為了要全民的健康利益我們當然需要要這樣做但是呢當時我們有保密協定在保密協定政府有負責保密的\n380809\t407000\t那你就繼續保密吧我建議你就繼續保密啊你看國人會怎麼看你們你看國人會怎麼看今天執政黨處理這件事情政治的核心在執行力啦成功的人找方法失敗找藉口我想如果沒有這樣的態度用這樣的態度來面對民意必須院長我不想跟你在這邊口舌之爭但是你今天的這樣子的態度讓我非常的失望從你們今天行政院你們的聯絡人告訴我們的原因是什麼\n407933\t428784\t為什麼今天早上才送到辦公室 因為長官說沒有辦法提供昨天沒有辦法提供 請問這是哪一位長官我們沒有說沒有辦法提供 我要跟你們講我們昨天開會開到了晚上的時候還在準備所以你們還是要互相套招 然後11月的沒有套招我不是讓我問你為什麼11月你要給我搞一天\n430265\t430465\t當時高端\n450806\t464879\t我告訴你啦今天民進黨在國會實質過半啦實質過半今天你們所有的道業小組所有的相關提供的資料都是遮蔽啦遮蔽至少三分之一以上啦相關的重要資訊都遮蔽這要怎麼審查你告訴我\n465640\t477702\t只要不同意的全部都要透過表決幫我們封殺掉剛才你還有你們民進黨還有臉叫國會這樣不能讓你們實質過半實質過半就是實質護航啊沒有幸好是國會過半啦如果到當時呢當時在貴黨就主張說不要開發國內的疫苗我們什麼時候說不用開發國內疫苗我在這邊質詢你去調資料我每次質詢高端我第一件事情是說我們支持國產疫苗發展不要放靠報紙\n496127\t514546\t當時有多少在野黨不要亂扣帽子扣帽子是你啊扣你什麼帽子你今天11月的這個報告你不是早上8點15分回來送來嗎這合理嗎你給我45分鐘看我要怎麼質詢我們所有的專案報告以往送來的時間都是在報告的當時送過來的\n515367\t517368\t昨天晚上7點就到辦公室在等你們的報告我還要等到8點15\n538939\t563434\t我們昨天晚上忙到11點才把這個報告給完成所以在委員你講的我會告訴院長你的報告結論就是不公開全部以高端董事會的決議為主只要他不同意你就沒有辦法公開你對他完全沒批調國人的訴求你沒有辦法回應簡單來講就是這樣子今天給我們的結論就是這樣子請問一下我們在這邊質詢我們這樣有意義嗎\n566069\t571394\t我想法務部的105年的函式就講得很清楚了政府是可以去要求的\n572130\t598169\t那如果你什麼事情都要推給民間那這樣子國人能夠接受嗎而且這個相關的資訊如果說今天是在疫情緊繃的期間他有國際上採購商業秘密價格之間的競爭這個我們都同意今天解封已經一年多了國人有資的權利而且這件事情是賴清德副總統也是我們的民進黨總統候選人他在總統辯論會上面他也主張的今天你是不是也應該來去回應民意\n601852\t620568\t應該來去回應民意那如果你們要今天用這樣的態度委員你說我們要尊重合約那我們合約簽當時簽訂的就是5年的保密協定保密條款所以我們是應該要遵照這個5年的保密條款的方式來進行那你就繼續保存5年吧\n620868\t623610\t但是我剛才講得很清楚啊我剛才講得很清楚我剛才講得很清楚我可以講話\n645223\t656813\t高端的疫苗我剛才已經報告得很清楚真實世界的數據出來他是跟BNT跟莫德納是一樣好的保護當時就是因為有很多人在\n657774\t676662\t某黑高端讓很多可以打高端減少副作用的人沒有然後偏偏來鼓勵說要打科興打國藥結果那個科興國藥我跟委員報告科興國藥的免疫原性它的抗體產生的比例是所有的疫苗最低的\n677642\t685727\t我們理解涉及國家安全我們都同意涉及國產疫苗本來就是戰略物資本來就是國家安全的重要戰略物資我們都理解但是高端整個的過程國人的餘率採購的金額相關合約的內容\n698053\t698834\t委員你這講的都不對的啦\n718348\t733564\t我又不對 你都對好 我講啊 動物食業的結果早就發表了我們現在在告訴你高端合約的解密相關的效力我們沒有在跟你質疑效力喔我從頭到尾沒有在跟你質疑疫苗效力喔你不要在這個聲東擊西啦 院長\n736087\t758600\t不要這樣子好不好我們現在跟你講今天專報的內容相關合約採購的目標什麼時候要公布什麼時候能夠高端取得共識什麼時候能讓國人有自的權利這才是今天專報的重點我沒有在跟你討論疫苗的效力我拜託一下你剛剛還在糾正這個台上的委員另外一個部分除了在這個我今天我這樣聽起來合約是不可能公布的啦\n764623\t786749\t至少在今天沒有結論啦我這樣聽起來啦我希望你們繼續來去要求這個法務部的含釋我希望你們仔細去看你們來用這個含釋是不是能對高端公司來進行相關的要求另外一個部分我們還是一再強調我們會支持政府的本土生技產業但是我們不希望有人利用這樣的正當性趁機哄抬股價\n787429\t801599\t我們不希望有人在這中間謀取不斷的利益那高端股價的問題從他30塊附近漲起在短短一年半就暴漲逾13倍2021年5月更衝上417元尤其政府高層多次不避嫌\n802720\t829122\t高端股跌停的時候還出面呼籲國產疫苗要有信心甚至帶頭打高端我想這個部分是不是請院長你解釋相關的股價異常波動上有沒有相關的問題好 委員你是專家啦我跟你講全世界不會啦 你比較專家啦好 那你如果承認我是專家全世界在發展疫苗的人在發展的過程當中當動物實驗成功 臨床實驗成功的時候那個股價就會一直上升\n829922\t857133\t但是呢如果實驗失敗的時候就會下降所以那個上升你看莫德納你看BNT的股價的變化是怎麼樣所以藥物的開發本來就是會隨著開發的不同期程它有成功的時候呢它就會股價會一直上升這個是很正常的事情所以不要懷疑它那你如果講到說有沒有什麼涉及不法實際上我們檢調單位已經查過這個士林的地檢署對於\n858894\t873711\t有一位專家審查委員洩密這個高端實驗的好的結果給他的太太結果呢被判刑了三個月要緩刑兩年我想你也很清楚嘛所以我們對於所有這些不法的事情都有在查證喔都有在這個偵辦那\n876400\t905479\t所以這一件事情很重要而且立法院在衛黃委員會實際上呢他們也有調閱相關的這個資料那你說相關的資料在當時要提供說明也提供說明開了這麼多次的會議調閱小組開了這麼多次的會議也看了合約結果當時怎麼會沒有意見現在選舉到了又再來吵這個事情意見都很多啦只是都會被民進黨在國會直接表決封殺掉沒關係院長我剩下30秒我在這邊還是誠懇的呼籲我希望你們\n906400\t907580\t我希望你們嚴正的態度面對\n943231\t943253\t好\n","txt":"謝謝主席 我們邀請陳建仁院長陳院長請\n邱院長院長早安今天火氣有點大因為我覺得我們今天如果大家都來談高端我們還是針對議題來討論那昨天其實我們立法院召開朝野協商當時就針對這個高端合約是不是要公布我想還是回到今天的重點當時我們協商的結論我們是希望行政院在昨天下午的5點就提供相關今天專案報告的書面資料我想這個不過分吧\n對 你們昨天才告訴我 那你那個數據資料這麼獲益吧但是你知道我們什麼時候才收到嗎今天早上8點15分才送到我辦公室對 那依法的專案報告請問一下 這個報告才11頁你需要到今天早上8點15 9點就要進行院會的專案報告 9點就要\n進行專案報告了你8點15才送到委員辦公室請問一下這樣子是面對立法院面對民意的態度嗎我想這個院長我建議你好你如果要繼續這樣子用這樣的態度這跟你平常真的不太一樣如果你要繼續用這樣的態度我想全體的國人都在看\n今天大家對於高端的意見大家的質疑看的是政府面對民意的態度你面對中華民國最高民意殿堂你今天這樣子的態度是對的嗎11月的報告整個高端採購500萬劑的疫苗花了國人40億的公帑\n消毀了300多萬人的生命沒有錯但是相關國際採購的疫苗今天有相關已經可以使用的狀況下你的EUA你的實際在推動的過程中這麼多的疑慮甚至他後續的股價的異常這個都還沒有談到今天光是針對一個採購合約的一個公開都沒有辦法來完成\n整個40億的公帑銷毀了12億總共100多萬劑的疫苗你今天給我11頁的專案報告你還要拖到早上8點15才送到我辦公室這是對的嗎這是你面對民意的態度嗎如果你今天繼續這樣下去我可以告訴你\n今天這個專案報告今天這個臨時會等於是白開的全體的國人都在開為什麼因為今天的結論就是你們不願意公開你告訴我因為高端董事會不同意你們還在溝通還在要求但是我必須告訴你難道政府完全對他們沒有約束力嗎難道完全都沒有辦法要求嗎這個案子不是一天兩天你的合約不能公開是因為價格的問題商業的問題保密的問題\n我都了解我是海外台商出身我非常清楚但是那是在疫情期間當時市場上有相對競爭的時候但是疫情解封到現在已經一年多了已經一年多了很多的國家也陸續的公開而且目前國內的民意國內的民意大家是希望公開\n所以政府要維持政府的戰線政府也要公開但是政府必要維持誠信我告訴你誠信是什麼你今天包含法務部在105年的韓誓這邊就有提到\n得標的廠商投標單清單載有投標者投標履約的內容乃民眾監督履約之工具尚非為拒絕申請政府資訊之理由這個部分很清楚啦其實如果涉及跟民眾相關權益有關的你是可以要求大家法務部已經含釋了難道完全對高端公司都沒有相關的約束力難道一間公司用今天老實講用人民的納稅權來做這個疫苗採購\n我想過了嘛\n賴副總統主張要公開我們政府也主張要公開但是因為政府是簽約雙方的一方需要維持這個簽約的保密協定但是已經努力的來跟高端講請他來公開他到底不公開的主要原因是什麼你們溝通的內容溝通的細節溝通的結果你可不可以跟國人在這邊簡單報告\n為什麼他不公開?他的理由是什麼?價格不是都已經公開了嗎?840億塊一季嗎?他需要召開董事會來決定開個董事會有這麼困難嗎?那是要問高端嗎?要問高端所以我是覺得所以今天給國人的感覺就是行政院衛福部高端大家在互相甩鍋雙面手法嘛拖過去嘛沒有要拖\n什麼時候開個董事會這麼困難立法院臨時會都可以開了各黨朝野大家現在都可以來開會了為什麼高端不行立法院也召開過立法院也召開了這個調閱小組的委員會所有的高端的疫苗大家也在那個小組裡面有看過了監察院也調過這個資料\n這一個檢調單位也有這個資料所以這一件事情是如果有需要調查的時候為了要全民的健康利益我們當然需要要這樣做但是呢當時我們有保密協定在保密協定政府有負責保密的\n那你就繼續保密吧我建議你就繼續保密啊你看國人會怎麼看你們你看國人會怎麼看今天執政黨處理這件事情政治的核心在執行力啦成功的人找方法失敗找藉口我想如果沒有這樣的態度用這樣的態度來面對民意必須院長我不想跟你在這邊口舌之爭但是你今天的這樣子的態度讓我非常的失望從你們今天行政院你們的聯絡人告訴我們的原因是什麼\n為什麼今天早上才送到辦公室 因為長官說沒有辦法提供昨天沒有辦法提供 請問這是哪一位長官我們沒有說沒有辦法提供 我要跟你們講我們昨天開會開到了晚上的時候還在準備所以你們還是要互相套招 然後11月的沒有套招我不是讓我問你為什麼11月你要給我搞一天\n當時高端\n我告訴你啦今天民進黨在國會實質過半啦實質過半今天你們所有的道業小組所有的相關提供的資料都是遮蔽啦遮蔽至少三分之一以上啦相關的重要資訊都遮蔽這要怎麼審查你告訴我\n只要不同意的全部都要透過表決幫我們封殺掉剛才你還有你們民進黨還有臉叫國會這樣不能讓你們實質過半實質過半就是實質護航啊沒有幸好是國會過半啦如果到當時呢當時在貴黨就主張說不要開發國內的疫苗我們什麼時候說不用開發國內疫苗我在這邊質詢你去調資料我每次質詢高端我第一件事情是說我們支持國產疫苗發展不要放靠報紙\n當時有多少在野黨不要亂扣帽子扣帽子是你啊扣你什麼帽子你今天11月的這個報告你不是早上8點15分回來送來嗎這合理嗎你給我45分鐘看我要怎麼質詢我們所有的專案報告以往送來的時間都是在報告的當時送過來的\n昨天晚上7點就到辦公室在等你們的報告我還要等到8點15\n我們昨天晚上忙到11點才把這個報告給完成所以在委員你講的我會告訴院長你的報告結論就是不公開全部以高端董事會的決議為主只要他不同意你就沒有辦法公開你對他完全沒批調國人的訴求你沒有辦法回應簡單來講就是這樣子今天給我們的結論就是這樣子請問一下我們在這邊質詢我們這樣有意義嗎\n我想法務部的105年的函式就講得很清楚了政府是可以去要求的\n那如果你什麼事情都要推給民間那這樣子國人能夠接受嗎而且這個相關的資訊如果說今天是在疫情緊繃的期間他有國際上採購商業秘密價格之間的競爭這個我們都同意今天解封已經一年多了國人有資的權利而且這件事情是賴清德副總統也是我們的民進黨總統候選人他在總統辯論會上面他也主張的今天你是不是也應該來去回應民意\n應該來去回應民意那如果你們要今天用這樣的態度委員你說我們要尊重合約那我們合約簽當時簽訂的就是5年的保密協定保密條款所以我們是應該要遵照這個5年的保密條款的方式來進行那你就繼續保存5年吧\n但是我剛才講得很清楚啊我剛才講得很清楚我剛才講得很清楚我可以講話\n高端的疫苗我剛才已經報告得很清楚真實世界的數據出來他是跟BNT跟莫德納是一樣好的保護當時就是因為有很多人在\n某黑高端讓很多可以打高端減少副作用的人沒有然後偏偏來鼓勵說要打科興打國藥結果那個科興國藥我跟委員報告科興國藥的免疫原性它的抗體產生的比例是所有的疫苗最低的\n我們理解涉及國家安全我們都同意涉及國產疫苗本來就是戰略物資本來就是國家安全的重要戰略物資我們都理解但是高端整個的過程國人的餘率採購的金額相關合約的內容\n委員你這講的都不對的啦\n我又不對 你都對好 我講啊 動物食業的結果早就發表了我們現在在告訴你高端合約的解密相關的效力我們沒有在跟你質疑效力喔我從頭到尾沒有在跟你質疑疫苗效力喔你不要在這個聲東擊西啦 院長\n不要這樣子好不好我們現在跟你講今天專報的內容相關合約採購的目標什麼時候要公布什麼時候能夠高端取得共識什麼時候能讓國人有自的權利這才是今天專報的重點我沒有在跟你討論疫苗的效力我拜託一下你剛剛還在糾正這個台上的委員另外一個部分除了在這個我今天我這樣聽起來合約是不可能公布的啦\n至少在今天沒有結論啦我這樣聽起來啦我希望你們繼續來去要求這個法務部的含釋我希望你們仔細去看你們來用這個含釋是不是能對高端公司來進行相關的要求另外一個部分我們還是一再強調我們會支持政府的本土生技產業但是我們不希望有人利用這樣的正當性趁機哄抬股價\n我們不希望有人在這中間謀取不斷的利益那高端股價的問題從他30塊附近漲起在短短一年半就暴漲逾13倍2021年5月更衝上417元尤其政府高層多次不避嫌\n高端股跌停的時候還出面呼籲國產疫苗要有信心甚至帶頭打高端我想這個部分是不是請院長你解釋相關的股價異常波動上有沒有相關的問題好 委員你是專家啦我跟你講全世界不會啦 你比較專家啦好 那你如果承認我是專家全世界在發展疫苗的人在發展的過程當中當動物實驗成功 臨床實驗成功的時候那個股價就會一直上升\n但是呢如果實驗失敗的時候就會下降所以那個上升你看莫德納你看BNT的股價的變化是怎麼樣所以藥物的開發本來就是會隨著開發的不同期程它有成功的時候呢它就會股價會一直上升這個是很正常的事情所以不要懷疑它那你如果講到說有沒有什麼涉及不法實際上我們檢調單位已經查過這個士林的地檢署對於\n有一位專家審查委員洩密這個高端實驗的好的結果給他的太太結果呢被判刑了三個月要緩刑兩年我想你也很清楚嘛所以我們對於所有這些不法的事情都有在查證喔都有在這個偵辦那\n所以這一件事情很重要而且立法院在衛黃委員會實際上呢他們也有調閱相關的這個資料那你說相關的資料在當時要提供說明也提供說明開了這麼多次的會議調閱小組開了這麼多次的會議也看了合約結果當時怎麼會沒有意見現在選舉到了又再來吵這個事情意見都很多啦只是都會被民進黨在國會直接表決封殺掉沒關係院長我剩下30秒我在這邊還是誠懇的呼籲我希望你們\n我希望你們嚴正的態度面對\n好\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:19.425 --> 00:20.849\n謝謝主席我們邀請陳建仁院長陳院長請\n\n00:29.130 --> 00:56.878\n邱院長院長早安今天火氣有點大因為我覺得我們今天如果大家都來談高端我們還是針對議題來討論那昨天其實我們立法院召開朝野協商當時就針對這個高端合約是不是要公布我想還是回到今天的重點當時我們協商的結論我們是希望行政院在昨天下午的5點就提供相關今天專案報告的書面資料我想這個不過分吧\n\n00:57.778 --> 01:09.008\n對你們昨天才告訴我那你那個數據資料這麼獲益吧但是你知道我們什麼時候才收到嗎今天早上8點15分才送到我辦公室對那依法的專案報告請問一下這個報告才11頁你需要到今天早上8點159點就要進行院會的專案報告9點就要\n\n01:22.459 --> 01:41.355\n進行專案報告了你8點15才送到委員辦公室請問一下這樣子是面對立法院面對民意的態度嗎我想這個院長我建議你好你如果要繼續這樣子用這樣的態度這跟你平常真的不太一樣如果你要繼續用這樣的態度我想全體的國人都在看\n\n01:41.795 --> 02:00.112\n今天大家對於高端的意見大家的質疑看的是政府面對民意的態度你面對中華民國最高民意殿堂你今天這樣子的態度是對的嗎11月的報告整個高端採購500萬劑的疫苗花了國人40億的公帑\n\n02:02.080 --> 02:27.667\n消毀了300多萬人的生命沒有錯但是相關國際採購的疫苗今天有相關已經可以使用的狀況下你的EUA你的實際在推動的過程中這麼多的疑慮甚至他後續的股價的異常這個都還沒有談到今天光是針對一個採購合約的一個公開都沒有辦法來完成\n\n02:28.107 --> 02:44.410\n整個40億的公帑銷毀了12億總共100多萬劑的疫苗你今天給我11頁的專案報告你還要拖到早上8點15才送到我辦公室這是對的嗎這是你面對民意的態度嗎如果你今天繼續這樣下去我可以告訴你\n\n02:44.890 --> 03:08.889\n今天這個專案報告今天這個臨時會等於是白開的全體的國人都在開為什麼因為今天的結論就是你們不願意公開你告訴我因為高端董事會不同意你們還在溝通還在要求但是我必須告訴你難道政府完全對他們沒有約束力嗎難道完全都沒有辦法要求嗎這個案子不是一天兩天你的合約不能公開是因為價格的問題商業的問題保密的問題\n\n03:10.430 --> 03:29.001\n我都了解我是海外台商出身我非常清楚但是那是在疫情期間當時市場上有相對競爭的時候但是疫情解封到現在已經一年多了已經一年多了很多的國家也陸續的公開而且目前國內的民意國內的民意大家是希望公開\n\n03:30.962 --> 03:34.604\n所以政府要維持政府的戰線政府也要公開但是政府必要維持誠信我告訴你誠信是什麼你今天包含法務部在105年的韓誓這邊就有提到\n\n04:00.920 --> 04:26.887\n得標的廠商投標單清單載有投標者投標履約的內容乃民眾監督履約之工具尚非為拒絕申請政府資訊之理由這個部分很清楚啦其實如果涉及跟民眾相關權益有關的你是可以要求大家法務部已經含釋了難道完全對高端公司都沒有相關的約束力難道一間公司用今天老實講用人民的納稅權來做這個疫苗採購\n\n04:28.747 --> 04:29.088\n我想過了嘛\n\n04:48.042 --> 05:08.275\n賴副總統主張要公開我們政府也主張要公開但是因為政府是簽約雙方的一方需要維持這個簽約的保密協定但是已經努力的來跟高端講請他來公開他到底不公開的主要原因是什麼你們溝通的內容溝通的細節溝通的結果你可不可以跟國人在這邊簡單報告\n\n05:09.836 --> 05:31.588\n為什麼他不公開?他的理由是什麼?價格不是都已經公開了嗎?840億塊一季嗎?他需要召開董事會來決定開個董事會有這麼困難嗎?那是要問高端嗎?要問高端所以我是覺得所以今天給國人的感覺就是行政院衛福部高端大家在互相甩鍋雙面手法嘛拖過去嘛沒有要拖\n\n05:32.719 --> 06:00.869\n什麼時候開個董事會這麼困難立法院臨時會都可以開了各黨朝野大家現在都可以來開會了為什麼高端不行立法院也召開過立法院也召開了這個調閱小組的委員會所有的高端的疫苗大家也在那個小組裡面有看過了監察院也調過這個資料\n\n06:02.629 --> 06:19.568\n這一個檢調單位也有這個資料所以這一件事情是如果有需要調查的時候為了要全民的健康利益我們當然需要要這樣做但是呢當時我們有保密協定在保密協定政府有負責保密的\n\n06:20.809 --> 06:47.000\n那你就繼續保密吧我建議你就繼續保密啊你看國人會怎麼看你們你看國人會怎麼看今天執政黨處理這件事情政治的核心在執行力啦成功的人找方法失敗找藉口我想如果沒有這樣的態度用這樣的態度來面對民意必須院長我不想跟你在這邊口舌之爭但是你今天的這樣子的態度讓我非常的失望從你們今天行政院你們的聯絡人告訴我們的原因是什麼\n\n06:47.933 --> 07:08.784\n為什麼今天早上才送到辦公室因為長官說沒有辦法提供昨天沒有辦法提供請問這是哪一位長官我們沒有說沒有辦法提供我要跟你們講我們昨天開會開到了晚上的時候還在準備所以你們還是要互相套招然後11月的沒有套招我不是讓我問你為什麼11月你要給我搞一天\n\n07:10.265 --> 07:10.465\n當時高端\n\n07:30.806 --> 07:44.879\n我告訴你啦今天民進黨在國會實質過半啦實質過半今天你們所有的道業小組所有的相關提供的資料都是遮蔽啦遮蔽至少三分之一以上啦相關的重要資訊都遮蔽這要怎麼審查你告訴我\n\n07:45.640 --> 07:57.702\n只要不同意的全部都要透過表決幫我們封殺掉剛才你還有你們民進黨還有臉叫國會這樣不能讓你們實質過半實質過半就是實質護航啊沒有幸好是國會過半啦如果到當時呢當時在貴黨就主張說不要開發國內的疫苗我們什麼時候說不用開發國內疫苗我在這邊質詢你去調資料我每次質詢高端我第一件事情是說我們支持國產疫苗發展不要放靠報紙\n\n08:16.127 --> 08:34.546\n當時有多少在野黨不要亂扣帽子扣帽子是你啊扣你什麼帽子你今天11月的這個報告你不是早上8點15分回來送來嗎這合理嗎你給我45分鐘看我要怎麼質詢我們所有的專案報告以往送來的時間都是在報告的當時送過來的\n\n08:35.367 --> 08:37.368\n昨天晚上7點就到辦公室在等你們的報告我還要等到8點15\n\n08:58.939 --> 09:23.434\n我們昨天晚上忙到11點才把這個報告給完成所以在委員你講的我會告訴院長你的報告結論就是不公開全部以高端董事會的決議為主只要他不同意你就沒有辦法公開你對他完全沒批調國人的訴求你沒有辦法回應簡單來講就是這樣子今天給我們的結論就是這樣子請問一下我們在這邊質詢我們這樣有意義嗎\n\n09:26.069 --> 09:31.394\n我想法務部的105年的函式就講得很清楚了政府是可以去要求的\n\n09:32.130 --> 09:58.169\n那如果你什麼事情都要推給民間那這樣子國人能夠接受嗎而且這個相關的資訊如果說今天是在疫情緊繃的期間他有國際上採購商業秘密價格之間的競爭這個我們都同意今天解封已經一年多了國人有資的權利而且這件事情是賴清德副總統也是我們的民進黨總統候選人他在總統辯論會上面他也主張的今天你是不是也應該來去回應民意\n\n10:01.852 --> 10:20.568\n應該來去回應民意那如果你們要今天用這樣的態度委員你說我們要尊重合約那我們合約簽當時簽訂的就是5年的保密協定保密條款所以我們是應該要遵照這個5年的保密條款的方式來進行那你就繼續保存5年吧\n\n10:20.868 --> 10:23.610\n但是我剛才講得很清楚啊我剛才講得很清楚我剛才講得很清楚我可以講話\n\n10:45.223 --> 10:56.813\n高端的疫苗我剛才已經報告得很清楚真實世界的數據出來他是跟BNT跟莫德納是一樣好的保護當時就是因為有很多人在\n\n10:57.774 --> 11:16.662\n某黑高端讓很多可以打高端減少副作用的人沒有然後偏偏來鼓勵說要打科興打國藥結果那個科興國藥我跟委員報告科興國藥的免疫原性它的抗體產生的比例是所有的疫苗最低的\n\n11:17.642 --> 11:25.727\n我們理解涉及國家安全我們都同意涉及國產疫苗本來就是戰略物資本來就是國家安全的重要戰略物資我們都理解但是高端整個的過程國人的餘率採購的金額相關合約的內容\n\n11:38.053 --> 11:38.834\n委員你這講的都不對的啦\n\n11:58.348 --> 12:13.564\n我又不對你都對好我講啊動物食業的結果早就發表了我們現在在告訴你高端合約的解密相關的效力我們沒有在跟你質疑效力喔我從頭到尾沒有在跟你質疑疫苗效力喔你不要在這個聲東擊西啦院長\n\n12:16.087 --> 12:38.600\n不要這樣子好不好我們現在跟你講今天專報的內容相關合約採購的目標什麼時候要公布什麼時候能夠高端取得共識什麼時候能讓國人有自的權利這才是今天專報的重點我沒有在跟你討論疫苗的效力我拜託一下你剛剛還在糾正這個台上的委員另外一個部分除了在這個我今天我這樣聽起來合約是不可能公布的啦\n\n12:44.623 --> 13:06.749\n至少在今天沒有結論啦我這樣聽起來啦我希望你們繼續來去要求這個法務部的含釋我希望你們仔細去看你們來用這個含釋是不是能對高端公司來進行相關的要求另外一個部分我們還是一再強調我們會支持政府的本土生技產業但是我們不希望有人利用這樣的正當性趁機哄抬股價\n\n13:07.429 --> 13:21.599\n我們不希望有人在這中間謀取不斷的利益那高端股價的問題從他30塊附近漲起在短短一年半就暴漲逾13倍2021年5月更衝上417元尤其政府高層多次不避嫌\n\n13:22.720 --> 13:49.122\n高端股跌停的時候還出面呼籲國產疫苗要有信心甚至帶頭打高端我想這個部分是不是請院長你解釋相關的股價異常波動上有沒有相關的問題好委員你是專家啦我跟你講全世界不會啦你比較專家啦好那你如果承認我是專家全世界在發展疫苗的人在發展的過程當中當動物實驗成功臨床實驗成功的時候那個股價就會一直上升\n\n13:49.922 --> 14:17.133\n但是呢如果實驗失敗的時候就會下降所以那個上升你看莫德納你看BNT的股價的變化是怎麼樣所以藥物的開發本來就是會隨著開發的不同期程它有成功的時候呢它就會股價會一直上升這個是很正常的事情所以不要懷疑它那你如果講到說有沒有什麼涉及不法實際上我們檢調單位已經查過這個士林的地檢署對於\n\n14:18.894 --> 14:33.711\n有一位專家審查委員洩密這個高端實驗的好的結果給他的太太結果呢被判刑了三個月要緩刑兩年我想你也很清楚嘛所以我們對於所有這些不法的事情都有在查證喔都有在這個偵辦那\n\n14:36.400 --> 15:05.479\n所以這一件事情很重要而且立法院在衛黃委員會實際上呢他們也有調閱相關的這個資料那你說相關的資料在當時要提供說明也提供說明開了這麼多次的會議調閱小組開了這麼多次的會議也看了合約結果當時怎麼會沒有意見現在選舉到了又再來吵這個事情意見都很多啦只是都會被民進黨在國會直接表決封殺掉沒關係院長我剩下30秒我在這邊還是誠懇的呼籲我希望你們\n\n15:06.400 --> 15:07.580\n我希望你們嚴正的態度面對\n\n15:43.231 --> 15:43.253\n好\n\n","segments":[{"start":19.425,"end":20.849,"text":"謝謝主席 我們邀請陳建仁院長陳院長請"},{"start":29.13,"end":56.878,"text":"邱院長院長早安今天火氣有點大因為我覺得我們今天如果大家都來談高端我們還是針對議題來討論那昨天其實我們立法院召開朝野協商當時就針對這個高端合約是不是要公布我想還是回到今天的重點當時我們協商的結論我們是希望行政院在昨天下午的5點就提供相關今天專案報告的書面資料我想這個不過分吧"},{"start":57.778,"end":69.008,"text":"對 你們昨天才告訴我 那你那個數據資料這麼獲益吧但是你知道我們什麼時候才收到嗎今天早上8點15分才送到我辦公室對 那依法的專案報告請問一下 這個報告才11頁你需要到今天早上8點15 9點就要進行院會的專案報告 9點就要"},{"start":82.459,"end":101.355,"text":"進行專案報告了你8點15才送到委員辦公室請問一下這樣子是面對立法院面對民意的態度嗎我想這個院長我建議你好你如果要繼續這樣子用這樣的態度這跟你平常真的不太一樣如果你要繼續用這樣的態度我想全體的國人都在看"},{"start":101.795,"end":120.112,"text":"今天大家對於高端的意見大家的質疑看的是政府面對民意的態度你面對中華民國最高民意殿堂你今天這樣子的態度是對的嗎11月的報告整個高端採購500萬劑的疫苗花了國人40億的公帑"},{"start":122.08,"end":147.667,"text":"消毀了300多萬人的生命沒有錯但是相關國際採購的疫苗今天有相關已經可以使用的狀況下你的EUA你的實際在推動的過程中這麼多的疑慮甚至他後續的股價的異常這個都還沒有談到今天光是針對一個採購合約的一個公開都沒有辦法來完成"},{"start":148.107,"end":164.41,"text":"整個40億的公帑銷毀了12億總共100多萬劑的疫苗你今天給我11頁的專案報告你還要拖到早上8點15才送到我辦公室這是對的嗎這是你面對民意的態度嗎如果你今天繼續這樣下去我可以告訴你"},{"start":164.89,"end":188.889,"text":"今天這個專案報告今天這個臨時會等於是白開的全體的國人都在開為什麼因為今天的結論就是你們不願意公開你告訴我因為高端董事會不同意你們還在溝通還在要求但是我必須告訴你難道政府完全對他們沒有約束力嗎難道完全都沒有辦法要求嗎這個案子不是一天兩天你的合約不能公開是因為價格的問題商業的問題保密的問題"},{"start":190.43,"end":209.001,"text":"我都了解我是海外台商出身我非常清楚但是那是在疫情期間當時市場上有相對競爭的時候但是疫情解封到現在已經一年多了已經一年多了很多的國家也陸續的公開而且目前國內的民意國內的民意大家是希望公開"},{"start":210.962,"end":214.604,"text":"所以政府要維持政府的戰線政府也要公開但是政府必要維持誠信我告訴你誠信是什麼你今天包含法務部在105年的韓誓這邊就有提到"},{"start":240.92,"end":266.887,"text":"得標的廠商投標單清單載有投標者投標履約的內容乃民眾監督履約之工具尚非為拒絕申請政府資訊之理由這個部分很清楚啦其實如果涉及跟民眾相關權益有關的你是可以要求大家法務部已經含釋了難道完全對高端公司都沒有相關的約束力難道一間公司用今天老實講用人民的納稅權來做這個疫苗採購"},{"start":268.747,"end":269.088,"text":"我想過了嘛"},{"start":288.042,"end":308.275,"text":"賴副總統主張要公開我們政府也主張要公開但是因為政府是簽約雙方的一方需要維持這個簽約的保密協定但是已經努力的來跟高端講請他來公開他到底不公開的主要原因是什麼你們溝通的內容溝通的細節溝通的結果你可不可以跟國人在這邊簡單報告"},{"start":309.836,"end":331.588,"text":"為什麼他不公開?他的理由是什麼?價格不是都已經公開了嗎?840億塊一季嗎?他需要召開董事會來決定開個董事會有這麼困難嗎?那是要問高端嗎?要問高端所以我是覺得所以今天給國人的感覺就是行政院衛福部高端大家在互相甩鍋雙面手法嘛拖過去嘛沒有要拖"},{"start":332.719,"end":360.869,"text":"什麼時候開個董事會這麼困難立法院臨時會都可以開了各黨朝野大家現在都可以來開會了為什麼高端不行立法院也召開過立法院也召開了這個調閱小組的委員會所有的高端的疫苗大家也在那個小組裡面有看過了監察院也調過這個資料"},{"start":362.629,"end":379.568,"text":"這一個檢調單位也有這個資料所以這一件事情是如果有需要調查的時候為了要全民的健康利益我們當然需要要這樣做但是呢當時我們有保密協定在保密協定政府有負責保密的"},{"start":380.809,"end":407,"text":"那你就繼續保密吧我建議你就繼續保密啊你看國人會怎麼看你們你看國人會怎麼看今天執政黨處理這件事情政治的核心在執行力啦成功的人找方法失敗找藉口我想如果沒有這樣的態度用這樣的態度來面對民意必須院長我不想跟你在這邊口舌之爭但是你今天的這樣子的態度讓我非常的失望從你們今天行政院你們的聯絡人告訴我們的原因是什麼"},{"start":407.933,"end":428.784,"text":"為什麼今天早上才送到辦公室 因為長官說沒有辦法提供昨天沒有辦法提供 請問這是哪一位長官我們沒有說沒有辦法提供 我要跟你們講我們昨天開會開到了晚上的時候還在準備所以你們還是要互相套招 然後11月的沒有套招我不是讓我問你為什麼11月你要給我搞一天"},{"start":430.265,"end":430.465,"text":"當時高端"},{"start":450.806,"end":464.879,"text":"我告訴你啦今天民進黨在國會實質過半啦實質過半今天你們所有的道業小組所有的相關提供的資料都是遮蔽啦遮蔽至少三分之一以上啦相關的重要資訊都遮蔽這要怎麼審查你告訴我"},{"start":465.64,"end":477.702,"text":"只要不同意的全部都要透過表決幫我們封殺掉剛才你還有你們民進黨還有臉叫國會這樣不能讓你們實質過半實質過半就是實質護航啊沒有幸好是國會過半啦如果到當時呢當時在貴黨就主張說不要開發國內的疫苗我們什麼時候說不用開發國內疫苗我在這邊質詢你去調資料我每次質詢高端我第一件事情是說我們支持國產疫苗發展不要放靠報紙"},{"start":496.127,"end":514.546,"text":"當時有多少在野黨不要亂扣帽子扣帽子是你啊扣你什麼帽子你今天11月的這個報告你不是早上8點15分回來送來嗎這合理嗎你給我45分鐘看我要怎麼質詢我們所有的專案報告以往送來的時間都是在報告的當時送過來的"},{"start":515.367,"end":517.368,"text":"昨天晚上7點就到辦公室在等你們的報告我還要等到8點15"},{"start":538.939,"end":563.434,"text":"我們昨天晚上忙到11點才把這個報告給完成所以在委員你講的我會告訴院長你的報告結論就是不公開全部以高端董事會的決議為主只要他不同意你就沒有辦法公開你對他完全沒批調國人的訴求你沒有辦法回應簡單來講就是這樣子今天給我們的結論就是這樣子請問一下我們在這邊質詢我們這樣有意義嗎"},{"start":566.069,"end":571.394,"text":"我想法務部的105年的函式就講得很清楚了政府是可以去要求的"},{"start":572.13,"end":598.169,"text":"那如果你什麼事情都要推給民間那這樣子國人能夠接受嗎而且這個相關的資訊如果說今天是在疫情緊繃的期間他有國際上採購商業秘密價格之間的競爭這個我們都同意今天解封已經一年多了國人有資的權利而且這件事情是賴清德副總統也是我們的民進黨總統候選人他在總統辯論會上面他也主張的今天你是不是也應該來去回應民意"},{"start":601.852,"end":620.568,"text":"應該來去回應民意那如果你們要今天用這樣的態度委員你說我們要尊重合約那我們合約簽當時簽訂的就是5年的保密協定保密條款所以我們是應該要遵照這個5年的保密條款的方式來進行那你就繼續保存5年吧"},{"start":620.868,"end":623.61,"text":"但是我剛才講得很清楚啊我剛才講得很清楚我剛才講得很清楚我可以講話"},{"start":645.223,"end":656.813,"text":"高端的疫苗我剛才已經報告得很清楚真實世界的數據出來他是跟BNT跟莫德納是一樣好的保護當時就是因為有很多人在"},{"start":657.774,"end":676.662,"text":"某黑高端讓很多可以打高端減少副作用的人沒有然後偏偏來鼓勵說要打科興打國藥結果那個科興國藥我跟委員報告科興國藥的免疫原性它的抗體產生的比例是所有的疫苗最低的"},{"start":677.642,"end":685.727,"text":"我們理解涉及國家安全我們都同意涉及國產疫苗本來就是戰略物資本來就是國家安全的重要戰略物資我們都理解但是高端整個的過程國人的餘率採購的金額相關合約的內容"},{"start":698.053,"end":698.834,"text":"委員你這講的都不對的啦"},{"start":718.348,"end":733.564,"text":"我又不對 你都對好 我講啊 動物食業的結果早就發表了我們現在在告訴你高端合約的解密相關的效力我們沒有在跟你質疑效力喔我從頭到尾沒有在跟你質疑疫苗效力喔你不要在這個聲東擊西啦 院長"},{"start":736.087,"end":758.6,"text":"不要這樣子好不好我們現在跟你講今天專報的內容相關合約採購的目標什麼時候要公布什麼時候能夠高端取得共識什麼時候能讓國人有自的權利這才是今天專報的重點我沒有在跟你討論疫苗的效力我拜託一下你剛剛還在糾正這個台上的委員另外一個部分除了在這個我今天我這樣聽起來合約是不可能公布的啦"},{"start":764.623,"end":786.749,"text":"至少在今天沒有結論啦我這樣聽起來啦我希望你們繼續來去要求這個法務部的含釋我希望你們仔細去看你們來用這個含釋是不是能對高端公司來進行相關的要求另外一個部分我們還是一再強調我們會支持政府的本土生技產業但是我們不希望有人利用這樣的正當性趁機哄抬股價"},{"start":787.429,"end":801.599,"text":"我們不希望有人在這中間謀取不斷的利益那高端股價的問題從他30塊附近漲起在短短一年半就暴漲逾13倍2021年5月更衝上417元尤其政府高層多次不避嫌"},{"start":802.72,"end":829.122,"text":"高端股跌停的時候還出面呼籲國產疫苗要有信心甚至帶頭打高端我想這個部分是不是請院長你解釋相關的股價異常波動上有沒有相關的問題好 委員你是專家啦我跟你講全世界不會啦 你比較專家啦好 那你如果承認我是專家全世界在發展疫苗的人在發展的過程當中當動物實驗成功 臨床實驗成功的時候那個股價就會一直上升"},{"start":829.922,"end":857.133,"text":"但是呢如果實驗失敗的時候就會下降所以那個上升你看莫德納你看BNT的股價的變化是怎麼樣所以藥物的開發本來就是會隨著開發的不同期程它有成功的時候呢它就會股價會一直上升這個是很正常的事情所以不要懷疑它那你如果講到說有沒有什麼涉及不法實際上我們檢調單位已經查過這個士林的地檢署對於"},{"start":858.894,"end":873.711,"text":"有一位專家審查委員洩密這個高端實驗的好的結果給他的太太結果呢被判刑了三個月要緩刑兩年我想你也很清楚嘛所以我們對於所有這些不法的事情都有在查證喔都有在這個偵辦那"},{"start":876.4,"end":905.479,"text":"所以這一件事情很重要而且立法院在衛黃委員會實際上呢他們也有調閱相關的這個資料那你說相關的資料在當時要提供說明也提供說明開了這麼多次的會議調閱小組開了這麼多次的會議也看了合約結果當時怎麼會沒有意見現在選舉到了又再來吵這個事情意見都很多啦只是都會被民進黨在國會直接表決封殺掉沒關係院長我剩下30秒我在這邊還是誠懇的呼籲我希望你們"},{"start":906.4,"end":907.58,"text":"我希望你們嚴正的態度面對"},{"start":943.231,"end":943.253,"text":"好"}]}}}}