{"id":149128,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149128","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61d28f3f53a2feb6f853ab08c9bedd1fb347916f9bc661eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6a3e4a50336754e9c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"10:42:55 - 10:58:32","影片長度":"00:15:37","會議時間":"2024-02-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-23","duration":937,"end_time":"2024-02-23T10:58:32+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-23T10:42:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":361,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（10時42分）有請院長。院長，謝謝您剛剛的食安專題報告，我想請問院長，您對於落實源頭管理、確保國人食安，您給自己打幾分？"],["主席：請行政院陳院長答復。"],["陳院長建仁：從2016年之前跟2016年以後，我們來做一個比較，我剛才講過，有關於系統性的食安問題已經大幅地減少，大部分都是個案的問題。"],["陳委員昭姿：所以您給自己的……"],["陳院長建仁：所以我覺得食安問題之所以會這樣好，不是只有中央政府的努力，包括了地方政府、學界、民間業界……"],["陳委員昭姿：所以你整體的……"],["陳院長建仁：所以我整體來看、整體來看，相對於亞洲附近的國家，我覺得臺灣的食安是不錯的。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝院長！院長，我下面想請教你一個邏輯問題，針對開放美國萊豬進口，以下說法何者正確──當政府沒有檢出萊克多巴胺的時候，是不是就等於飼養的時候沒有使用萊克多巴胺？或者是沒有檢出萊克多巴胺，並無法得出飼養時沒有使用萊克多巴胺的結論？請院長作答，謝謝！"],["陳院長建仁：好，如果政府開放美豬進口，因為我們沒有開放萊豬進口……"],["陳委員昭姿：在沒有檢出的情況下……"],["陳院長建仁：但是在我們沒有檢出的時候，這個時候我們可以說，進口的豬肉實際上是不含有萊克多巴胺，但是這個是美豬，所以是美國飼養的時候，他有沒有使用萊克多巴胺，因為你講的是……"],["陳委員昭姿：所以院長的答案是上面，還是下面？是未檢出就等於沒有使用呢？還是不能有這樣的結論？"],["陳院長建仁：在這裡的話，未檢出我們只能夠講沒有檢出。"],["陳委員昭姿：沒有檢出，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：就是沒有檢出。"],["陳院長建仁：是嘛！是沒有檢出。"],["陳委員昭姿：好。院長，沒有檢出不代表沒有使用才是正確的。"],["陳院長建仁：但是委員……"],["陳委員昭姿：陳部長……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我們現在萊克多巴胺的檢驗是用HPLC……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，我知道，敏感度……"],["陳院長建仁：HPLC是一個相當精準的檢驗方法。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝院長。陳吉仲前部長說，萊克多巴胺的半衰期短，代謝非常快，24小時內會代謝掉八成。根據我的精算大概只剩2%，農民只要在兩天前停藥，事實上，殘留量會大幅衰減，這個表示未檢出不代表未使用，你同意嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：我同意，但是我要講的是，您是藥學的專家，所以我不敢跟你班門弄斧……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝院長。"],["陳院長建仁：但是我們……"],["陳委員昭姿：這個方向、原則我瞭解。"],["陳院長建仁：現在各國都是用進口豬肉檢驗，這也是唯一的標準，也是國際標準。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝院長。去年10月食藥署副署長說，這幾年都沒有萊豬進口。院長，如果我們剛剛有這樣的小共識──沒有檢出未必代表沒有使用，那麼政府沒有檢出，食藥署副署長可不可以說都沒有萊豬進口？您同意這樣的說法嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：實際上各國進口的標準，都是按照進口豬肉檢出有沒有符合標準。當然您講的是對的，也許他有用……"],["陳委員昭姿：對，院長……"],["陳院長建仁：但是進口的貨品……"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝院長。"],["陳院長建仁：國際標準就是要針對進口豬肉檢驗。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長，其實我強調的是，希望官員能夠把話講清楚。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["陳委員昭姿：沒有檢出就是沒有檢出，你不能把沒有檢出跟沒有萊豬進口劃等號，這個說法您同意嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：可以這樣講，科學上……"],["陳委員昭姿：就是要講清楚，不要有話術。"],["陳院長建仁：但是實際上國際標準不是這樣，是按照進口豬肉檢驗。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝院長。"],["陳院長建仁：檢驗沒有萊克多巴胺就准進口，這是國際標準。"],["陳委員昭姿：我要請教院長，在政府的公務出國報告資訊網的網站上，我查到八件公務員到美國進行肉品查核的報告，是有關美牛的。我們知道自從開放進口後政府要定期查核，但是2021年當政府要開放美豬來臺時，明明承諾要到美國查廠，而且通過的業者才能夠輸到臺灣，可是我看了公務出國報告資訊網，為什麼到目前為止一件美豬查廠案的報告都沒有？目前掛零。院長，美豬查廠報告是機密嗎？還是有什麼不可告人之處呢？掛零。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，剛才衛福部長說有查廠，但是為什麼掛零我請他說明。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長，掛零。"],["薛部長瑞元：剛剛委員講的有一個地方不太正確，就是……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我就請你說為什麼美豬查廠是掛零？"],["薛部長瑞元：有。"],["陳委員昭姿：美牛查廠有八件，美豬查廠已經2、3年，為什麼是掛零？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們有去查了，也許……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，這樣子……"],["薛部長瑞元：我會把資料給你。"],["陳委員昭姿：這件事部長可不可以會後……"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["陳委員昭姿：我相信你們有報告。"],["陳院長建仁：對，我們請衛福部把資料給您。"],["陳委員昭姿：你是不是會後馬上請相關機關上傳？國人有權利瞭解這個檢查報告的內容，好嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["陳委員昭姿：就是這樣子，麻煩……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，查廠很重要……"],["陳委員昭姿：報告很重要。"],["陳院長建仁：但是進口的每批豬肉都要檢查更重要。"],["陳委員昭姿：報告是公定文書，我們瞭解。好，院長，關於美國豬肉進口，食藥署前後不同調，2014年姜副署長說，實地查核的範圍包括牧場、屠宰場及官方的衛生安全管制機制，透過實地查廠，食藥署還可以直接指定只有合格牧場生產的肉品才准進來。但是去年10月副署長林金富說，所謂的查廠是系統性的查核，是雙方研議出幾家廠商名單，再由我方查核，言下之意並不是逐廠查核。2021年蘇貞昌前院長為了推動開放美豬進口，在立法院承諾會赴美查廠，通過的才可以進口，也就是逐廠查驗的精神。請問院長，對於食藥署前後不同調，您的看法如何？"],["陳院長建仁：國際標準在這9年間確實有一些改變也說不定，但是最重要的我還是再強調，目前有一段時間……"],["陳委員昭姿：院長說的改變是說……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我跟你講一下，2023年面臨COVID-19，我們查廠實際上也有一些困難，我承認。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，我們瞭解。對於到底要實地逐廠查核還是所謂的系統性抽樣查核，您的想法呢？"],["陳院長建仁：應該是系統性查核，因為不可能逐廠查核，逐廠查核美國……"],["陳委員昭姿：這個是太不負責任的說法，因為這個在打臉姜郁美，也打臉蘇貞昌前院長在立法院的承諾。"],["陳院長建仁：所以我說這些規定可能在幾年內都有些改變。"],["陳委員昭姿：食藥署說10年未檢出瘦肉精，103年到112年衛生單位於抽驗豬肉檢驗乙型受體素，也就是瘦肉精，總共1萬9,300件，結果均未檢出，這是他們2月發的新聞稿。院長，您相信10年未檢出這個說法嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我當然相信，而且……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，你相信這個說法，院長，我可能要給你一些資料，您可能被騙了。我們先來看看2015年、2018年，這是近10年內……"],["陳院長建仁：剛才講的是進口。"],["陳委員昭姿：農委會都曾在前端飼養查獲違法使用瘦肉精而且開罰的至少有兩案，這是第一個。"],["陳院長建仁：是，那是國內養豬場出售前的檢驗。"],["陳委員昭姿：分別有查出它的量、它的內容，包括沙丁胺醇跟萊克多巴胺都是禁用的兩個成分，這是農委會前端的部分。好，你剛剛說你相信食藥署10年無查出的這個說法……"],["陳院長建仁：那是進口豬肉。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，下一張，事實上瘦肉精近5年都有違法使用。院長，根據食藥署自己的國際期刊Journal of FDA所刊登的同仁投書的報告，2011年到2015年抽驗1,487份畜產品檢測瘦肉精，有34件不合格，其中有24件為國內產品，這篇文章是用英文寫的，這是第一個。另外，我要告訴院長，監察院在2011年的時候，因為防檢局去檢測到非常高比率的違法使用瘦肉精，所以糾正了農委會「抽驗頻度過低，顯未善盡把關職責」。院長，剛剛……"],["陳院長建仁：這是國內的部分，委員，我想我們先澄清一下，在國外進口的部分，我們檢驗了1萬9,000多件，都正常……"],["陳委員昭姿：我想都是國人在……"],["陳院長建仁：國內產品的部分，我們有去檢查，那檢查的時候都是在銷售端之前檢查出來有不合格。"],["陳委員昭姿：現在我們再來討論銷售端跟後市場的問題。食藥署說10年來未檢出，你覺得這個說法正確嗎？該這樣講嗎？我已經告訴你農業部……"],["陳院長建仁：我要看一下食藥署的資料。"],["陳委員昭姿：食藥署的研究報告，自己刊登在國際期刊，也都有……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，它這個資料是commercial livestock products，就是所有的商業畜產品。"],["陳委員昭姿：畜產品裡面有牛也有其他的肉類。"],["陳院長建仁：我想看一下到底是豬肉或者牛肉。"],["陳委員昭姿：好。院長，我想這件事太離譜了，就是有這些資料還說10年未檢出，這是一個非常粗糙的說法。院長，這是假訊息呀！"],["陳院長建仁：我剛才講過那是豬肉進口。"],["陳委員昭姿：這是官方的假訊息呀！10年未檢出。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有假訊息。"],["陳委員昭姿：我認為署長、部長還是誰要負責呢？"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員，我可不可以說明一下？因為委員剛才說是農業部有關的訊息，那我們所掌握的就是近10年來總共有4件，這4件都是即時攔抯，在生產端的時候就攔抯了，所以沒有進到後市場。"],["陳委員昭姿：後市場沒有檢出，後市場跟前市場現在是脫鉤管理的。我就把食藥署的期刊……自己來看看。"],["陳院長建仁：本來就該脫鉤管理。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，今天回到食安事件最近的主角──天選之肉，院長，您看到的這個追溯號碼，就是這次疑似西布特羅肉片的瘦肉精使用事件，這是有溯源資料的，我想知道衛福部到現在有沒有掌握這一批產品的總量、賣出的數量跟回收的數量，有沒有這個數字？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個目前都已經有蒐集下來，都下架了。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是我們還沒有看到這個報告數字。"],["薛部長瑞元：已經檢驗的都沒有問題，都沒有含西布特羅。"],["陳委員昭姿：我要談的是，如果你有產品的總量數字非常好，趕快讓國人知道，如果你沒有數字，那就是有點……"],["薛部長瑞元：同一批號九十幾件大概都沒有問題，只有這一件。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，那我要告訴……"],["陳院長建仁：我們再提供給委員。"],["陳委員昭姿：我要告訴部長、院長，即便你有產品總量，我認為那也是不正確的，為什麼呢？一隻豬屠宰之後，只賣出肉品嗎？人民只會吃到肉品嗎？內臟賣不賣？肝臟賣不賣？你追溯的東西有幾千件是限制肉品？為什麼我會這樣說呢？院長，請你先看這一張投影片的兩張照片，左邊是台糖的梅花肉片，右邊是台糖的豬肝片，他們都宣稱這一盒經得起考驗，請問院長，你有看出這兩張照片有什麼不同嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：一個是豬肝，一個是豬肉。"],["陳委員昭姿：我來告訴院長答案，因為我圈起來了。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["陳委員昭姿：這個肉片的部分它有溯源標章，有個QR code可以去掃，有提供產銷履歷，很好。但是請看豬肝的部分空空的，豬肝沒有溯源徽章，沒有產銷履歷，沒有辦法溯源。院長，豬肝上什麼都沒有辦法溯源，所以這次的產品總量我覺得有問題，因為你沒有辦法溯源。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我……"],["陳委員昭姿：那國人是吃內臟的，你同意喔？國人是吃內臟的。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你是藥學的專家，我剛才講過，一群豬用同樣的飼料去餵養，然後如果有瘦肉精在裡面……"],["陳委員昭姿：當然到處都有。"],["陳院長建仁：不只是跑到肉，而且會跑到肝。"],["陳委員昭姿：對。"],["陳院長建仁：現在我們所有的豬肉檢驗出來，通通沒有檢出，那請問如果肉沒有，豬肝裡面、肝裡面會有嗎？我想我們學科學的人都很清楚。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長，一隻豬假設吃下了瘦肉精，它只會停留在肉片嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：當然不會，所以……"],["陳委員昭姿：肝臟的濃度含量……"],["陳院長建仁：但是所有的肉片，所有的肉片都沒有喔！"],["陳委員昭姿：哪一個地方含量比較高喔？假設要……"],["陳院長建仁：所有的肉片……"],["陳委員昭姿：採檢時間。反正院長，豬肝沒有辦法溯源、內臟沒有辦法溯源，這是個事實吧？"],["陳院長建仁：我們對豬肝的溯源部分，我請部長說明。"],["陳委員昭姿：好。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我這邊說明一下，我們國內豬隻的溯源系統，第一個是採自願性的……"],["陳委員昭姿：這就是問題。"],["陳代理部長駿季：台糖的豬隻是有溯源的。"],["陳委員昭姿：OK，我瞭解，這是自願性，它現在還不是強制性的，當然將來可以考慮。但是我要說現在是有偏差的，肉片有溯源機制，但內臟沒有。"],["陳院長建仁：未來可以考慮。"],["陳委員昭姿：這兩張等一下再交給院長去處理。"],["陳院長建仁：現在臺中市查出來的是肉片，不是內臟。"],["陳委員昭姿：我的質詢時間。內臟已經成食安漏洞了，肉片有，豬肝沒有溯源的徽章。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：內臟成為食安漏洞，溯源要馬上做。院長，您看一下這個表格，再看後面的數字，我們國家允許的殘留含量，你看肝臟、腎臟跟肌肉是不一樣的，肝臟是允許有四倍高。你我的醫學背景都瞭解，瘦肉精在豬……"],["陳院長建仁：對，委員的建議很好，這個……"],["陳委員昭姿：內臟是比較高的，如果今天換成……"],["陳院長建仁：未來內臟也要做抽檢……"],["陳委員昭姿：那還是水溶性的萊克多巴胺。"],["陳院長建仁：對，也要做檢查。"],["陳委員昭姿：如果今天不幸換成西布特羅……這個數字不會只有四倍耶！院長。這是漏洞耶！食安的漏洞。"],["陳院長建仁：但是這次西布特羅檢驗出來很低。"],["陳委員昭姿：我們要做很多預防。"],["陳院長建仁：對，是。這……"],["陳委員昭姿：院長，可不可以有個時程？因為本席認為內臟目前是食安的漏洞，那可不可能有一個時程去研議這件事情，怎麼樣把它納入管理？"],["陳院長建仁：我們可以來考慮畜產品的內臟也做相關的檢驗。對啦！這一定、一定，你的建議是好的啦！很好。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝院長，我把這兩件肉品的差異交給院長。"],["陳院長建仁：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：請院長帶回去，再看怎麼來幫助國人能夠……謝謝院長。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員昭姿的質詢。","本席善意提醒一下衛福部薛部長，你今天不是藐視國會，是你講話國會聽不見，你要不要喝一口熱茶，帶個熱茶上台好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：他真的是喉嚨痛。"],["主席：對，我說你今天備詢的話，麻煩帶個熱茶沒關係的，我們都能理解，好不好？立法院很有人情味的。","接下來我們請第2位質詢委員李委員坤城，時間15分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":277,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2024-02-23"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1130401_00011"}},"transcript":{"id":"149128","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149128","tool":"pyannote","id":"149128-pyannote"},"job_id":"JlQJgIGVEcCiCFN0","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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\"start\": 17.013, \"end\": 17.033, \"score\": 0.614}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 20.831, \"end\": 47.776, \"text\": \"從2016年之前跟2016年以後我們來做一個比較我剛才講過我看你系統性的這個食安問題已經大幅的減少大部分都是個案的問題所以我覺得這個食安問題之所以會這樣好不是只有中央政府的努力包括了地方政府學界民間業界都有所以我整體來看整體來看相對於亞洲附近的國家我覺得台灣的食安是不錯的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 20.831, \"end\": 21.011, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 21.011, \"end\": 21.151, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 21.151, \"end\": 21.371, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 21.371, \"end\": 22.072, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 22.072, \"end\": 22.232, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 22.232, \"end\": 22.392, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 22.392, \"end\": 22.952, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 22.952, 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\"text\": \"你沒有數字,那就是有點…同一批要九十幾件,大概都沒有…好,好,那我要告訴…我要告訴部長或院長,如果即便你有產品總量,我認為那是不正確的。為什麼呢?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 668.413, \"end\": 668.573, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 668.573, \"end\": 668.714, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 668.714, \"end\": 669.054, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"字\", \"start\": 669.054, \"end\": 669.334, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 669.334, \"end\": 670.056, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 670.056, \"end\": 670.216, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 670.216, \"end\": 670.676, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 670.676, \"end\": 671.458, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"…\"}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 671.458, \"end\": 671.638, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 671.638, \"end\": 671.738, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"批\", \"start\": 671.738, \"end\": 671.878, \"score\": 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00:00:53,113\n好,謝謝院長。院長我下面想請教您一個邏輯問題。針對開放美國萊豬進口以下說法何者正確?\n\n4\n00:00:59,653 --> 00:01:00,294\n好,如果政府開放\n\n5\n00:01:19,434 --> 00:01:20,915\n所以院長的答案是上面還是下面?\n\n6\n00:01:46,249 --> 00:02:10,662\n是未檢出就等於沒有使用呢?還是不能有這樣的結論?在這裡的話,未檢出我們只能夠講說說沒有檢出。沒有檢出對不對?就是沒有檢出。好,院長沒有檢出不代表沒有使用才是正確的。但是委員,我們現在用萊克多巴胺的檢驗是用HPOC。HPOC是一個相當精準的檢驗的方法。\n\n7\n00:02:12,843 --> 00:02:34,722\n陳吉仲前部長說萊克多巴胺它的半衰期短代謝非常快24小時內會代謝掉八成根據我的精算大概只剩百分之二那農民只要在兩天前停藥事實上殘留量會大幅的衰減院長這個表示說未減出不代表未使用你同意嗎\n\n8\n00:02:35,662 --> 00:03:03,084\n我同意,但是委員我要講的就是說您是藥學的專家所以我不敢跟你拔門弄斧但是呢但是我們現在各國都是用進口豬肉來做檢驗這也是唯一的標準也是國際標準謝謝院長謝謝院長好去年10月食藥署副署長說這幾年都沒有來豬進口院長如果我們剛剛有這樣的一個小共識沒有檢出未必代表沒有使用的話\n\n9\n00:03:04,125 --> 00:03:06,647\n其實我強調的是希望官員能夠把話講清楚。\n\n10\n00:03:27,162 --> 00:03:47,440\n沒有檢出就是沒有來豬進口做等號這個說法您同意嗎?可以這樣講科學上但是實際上國際標準不是這樣啦是按照進口豬肉來做檢驗那檢驗沒有萊克多巴胺就準進口這是國際標準\n\n11\n00:03:48,857 --> 00:04:09,754\n委員長我要請教在政府的公務出國報告資訊網的網站上我查到了八件公務員到美國進行肉品的這個查核報告是有關美牛的因為我們知道自從開放進口後政府要定期的查核但是但是2021年當政府要開放美豬來台時明明承諾要到美國查場\n\n12\n00:04:11,223 --> 00:04:11,343\n﹚陳昭姿\n\n13\n00:04:24,281 --> 00:04:50,323\n院長到底美豬茶廠報告是機密嗎?還是有什麼不可告人的處呢?沒有,這個我想剛才衛福部部長說是有是茶廠,但是為什麼掛鈴我請他說明。部長,掛鈴?剛剛委員講的有一個地方不太正確啦。院長,部長我就請你說為什麼美豬茶廠是掛鈴?有。美牛茶廠有8件,美豬茶廠已經兩三年為什麼是掛鈴?\n\n14\n00:04:51,164 --> 00:05:16,971\n我們有去查了,那也許...好,那這樣是不是這樣子,這件事部長可不可以會後,就是我相信你們有報告,那你是不是會後馬上請將官機關上傳。我覺得國人有權利去了解這個檢查報告的內容,好嗎?好,委員查場很重要啦,但是進口的每一批豬肉都要檢查更重要。報告是公定文書,我們了解,好。\n\n15\n00:05:18,646 --> 00:05:46,183\n院長關於美國豬肉進口施藥署是前後不同調的2014年江副署長說實地查核的範圍包括牧場、屠宰場及官方的衛生安全管制機制透過實地查場施藥署還可以直接指定只有合格牧場生產肉品才准進來但是去年10月副署長林金富說所謂的查場是系統性的查核是雙方研議出幾家賞賬名單再由我方去查核\n\n16\n00:05:47,083 --> 00:06:07,800\n言下之意說並不是主場查核。請稍後。2021年朱成章院長為了推動開放美豬進口也在立法院承諾會赴美茶廠通過的才可以進口。也就是主場查驗的精神。請問院長您對於食藥署前後不同調您的看法是如何?\n\n17\n00:06:08,437 --> 00:06:28,152\n我想可能在國際的標準上在這9年間確實是有一些改變也說不定但是我們是最重要我還是在強調的是說在目前有一段時間委員我跟你講一下這個2023年面臨到COVID-19我們茶廠實際上也是有一些困難我承認\n\n18\n00:06:36,618 --> 00:06:43,797\n我們了解那院長對於到底要實地主場查核還是所謂的系統性抽樣查核您的想法呢?\n\n19\n00:06:44,897 --> 00:07:09,615\n應該是系統性查核,因為不可能主場查核啦。這個太負責任說法,因為這個在打臉江玉敏,也打臉蘇貞昌院長在立法院的承諾。所以我說這是規定可能在幾年內都有些改變。食藥署說10年未檢出瘦肉精,在下面103年到122年衛生單位於抽驗豬肉檢驗已行瘦體數,也就是瘦肉精。\n\n20\n00:07:10,676 --> 00:07:34,983\n總共19300件,結果均未檢出。這是他2月發的新聞稿。這個10年未檢出,院長您相信這個說法嗎?我當然相信。您相信這個說法?我可能要給你一些資料,您可能被騙了。好,我們先來看看。2015年、2018年農委會,這近10年內喔。剛才講的是進口。前端飼養。對。\n\n21\n00:07:38,274 --> 00:07:38,454\n﹚陳昭姿\n\n22\n00:08:01,926 --> 00:08:08,568\n你剛剛說你相信食藥署10年無查出的這個說法。那個是進口豬肉。好,下一張。\n\n23\n00:08:10,345 --> 00:08:35,748\n事實上瘦肉精近5年都有違法使用。院長根據食藥署自己的國際期刊JournalofFDA同仁所投書的報告2011年到2015年抽驗1487份續產品檢測瘦肉精有34件不合格有24件為國內產品這邊張市長英文寫的這是第一個另外我要告訴院長監察院在2011年的時候\n\n24\n00:08:37,910 --> 00:08:37,930\n委員長．\n\n25\n00:08:53,988 --> 00:08:54,788\n現在我們在討論銷售專跟後市場的問題\n\n26\n00:09:16,340 --> 00:09:37,259\n施藥署說10年來未檢出,你覺得這個說法正確嗎?該這樣講嗎?我要看一下這個施藥署的資料施藥署的研究報告自己刊登在期刊國際期刊委員他這個資料是commerciallivestockproduct就是說所有商業的蓄產品\n\n27\n00:09:38,300 --> 00:09:42,662\n我想這件事太離譜了就是說有這些資料還10年未檢出這個非常粗糙的一個說法院長這個是假訊息啊這是官方的假訊息啊10年未檢出\n\n28\n00:10:00,716 --> 00:10:03,598\n我認為署長部長還是誰要負責呢?我認為署長部長還是誰要負責呢?我認為署長部長還是誰要負責呢?我認為署長部長還是誰要負責呢?\n\n29\n00:10:29,983 --> 00:10:49,046\n院長您看到這個號碼追溯號碼就是這次疑似西部特羅肉片的這個瘦肉精使用事件這個是有溯源資料我想知道衛福部到現在有沒有掌握這一批這一批的流向產品總量賣出的數量跟回收的數量有沒有這個數字\n\n30\n00:10:50,548 --> 00:11:07,287\n這個目前都已經有收集下來,都下架。但是我們還沒有看到這個報告數字。已經檢驗了都沒有問題,都沒有含史普特羅。我要談的是,你的產品總量,如果你有數字非常好,趕快讓國人知道,如果\n\n31\n00:11:08,413 --> 00:11:24,016\n你沒有數字,那就是有點…同一批要九十幾件,大概都沒有…好,好,那我要告訴…我要告訴部長或院長,如果即便你有產品總量,我認為那是不正確的。為什麼呢?\n\n32\n00:11:25,182 --> 00:11:50,625\n一隻豬屠宰之後只會吃到肉品嗎?只賣出肉品嗎?人民只吃到肉品嗎?內臟賣不賣?肝臟賣不賣?你追溯的東西,剛剛的報告,增加報告,有幾千件是限制肉品。為什麼我會這樣說呢?為什麼我會這樣說呢?好,院長請你先看這一張投影片的兩張照片。左邊是台湯的梅花肉片。\n\n33\n00:11:51,943 --> 00:12:19,963\n右邊是台堂的豬肝片,豬肝的包裝,他們都宣稱這一盒經得及考驗請問院長你有看出這兩張照片有什麼不同嗎?一個是豬肝一個是豬肉我來告訴院長答案,因為我圈起來了這個肉片的部分它有溯源標章有個QRCode可以去掃有提供產銷履歷很好\n\n34\n00:12:21,144 --> 00:12:31,494\n但是,但是,請看豬肝的部分,空空的。豬肝沒有溯源徽章,沒有產銷履歷,沒有辦法溯源。院長,豬肝上什麼都沒有辦法。\n\n35\n00:12:38,303 --> 00:12:42,448\n委員你是藥學的專家我剛才講過一群豬用同樣的飼料去餵養然後如果有瘦肉精在裡面\n\n36\n00:12:57,706 --> 00:13:04,831\n議員長,一隻豬假設吃下了瘦肉精,牠只會停留在肉片嗎?當然不會嘛。但是所有的肉片,所有的肉片都沒有喔。哪一個地方含量比較高喔?假設要採檢時間喔。反正,議員長\n\n37\n00:13:27,024 --> 00:13:50,805\n豬肝沒有辦法溯源,內臟沒有辦法溯源,這是個敘事吧?我們這個豬肝的溯源的部分,我請...我這邊說明一下齁,我們國內的豬隻的溯源系統是第一個是採自願性的,那台湯的豬隻是有溯源的。我了解,這是自願性,它現在還不是強制性的齁,當然將來可以考慮,但是我要告訴現在是有偏差的。肉片有溯源,極致,但是內臟沒有。\n\n38\n00:13:53,936 --> 00:14:08,426\n未來可以考慮啦,未來可以考慮。這兩張等一下再讓院長來,交給院長來去處理。現在台中市查出來的是肉片,不是內臟。內臟已經成了食安漏洞了。\n\n39\n00:14:16,585 --> 00:14:21,867\n我們國家允許的殘留量含量你看肝臟腎臟跟肌肉是不一樣的肝臟是允許有4倍高\n\n40\n00:14:36,152 --> 00:14:43,299\n你我的醫學背景都了解。我覺得建議很好。未來內臟也要做檢查。如果今天不幸換成西部陀螺更油,這個數字不會只有4倍。\n\n41\n00:14:55,788 --> 00:15:13,130\n這是肉洞欸!這是西部特羅檢驗出來很低啊!我們要做很多預防,所以院長可不可以有個時程?因為本席認為內臟目前是食安的肉洞,那可不可能有一個時程去研議這件事情?怎麼樣?\n\n42\n00:15:29,465 --> 00:15:30,328\n臨時發言委員：陳昭姿\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n458\t17033\t有請院長。請陳院長備詢。謝謝您剛剛的食安專題報告。我想請問院長,您對於落實源頭管理確保國人食安,您給自己打幾分?\n20831\t47776\t從2016年之前跟2016年以後我們來做一個比較我剛才講過我看你系統性的這個食安問題已經大幅的減少大部分都是個案的問題所以我覺得這個食安問題之所以會這樣好不是只有中央政府的努力包括了地方政府學界民間業界都有所以我整體來看整體來看相對於亞洲附近的國家我覺得台灣的食安是不錯的\n48646\t53113\t好,謝謝院長。 院長我下面想請教您一個邏輯問題。針對開放美國萊豬進口以下說法何者正確?\n59653\t60294\t好,如果政府開放\n79434\t80915\t所以院長的答案是上面還是下面?\n106249\t130662\t是未檢出就等於沒有使用呢?還是不能有這樣的結論?在這裡的話,未檢出我們只能夠講說說沒有檢出。沒有檢出對不對?就是沒有檢出。好,院長沒有檢出不代表沒有使用才是正確的。但是委員,我們現在用萊克多巴胺的檢驗是用HPOC。HPOC是一個相當精準的檢驗的方法。\n132843\t154722\t陳吉仲前部長說萊克多巴胺它的半衰期短代謝非常快24小時內會代謝掉八成根據我的精算大概只剩百分之二那農民只要在兩天前停藥事實上殘留量會大幅的衰減院長這個表示說未減出不代表未使用你同意嗎\n155662\t183084\t我同意,但是委員我要講的就是說您是藥學的專家所以我不敢跟你拔門弄斧但是呢但是我們現在各國都是用進口豬肉來做檢驗這也是唯一的標準也是國際標準謝謝院長謝謝院長好去年10月食藥署副署長說這幾年都沒有來豬進口院長如果我們剛剛有這樣的一個小共識沒有檢出未必代表沒有使用的話\n184125\t186647\t其實我強調的是希望官員能夠把話講清楚。\n207162\t227440\t沒有檢出就是沒有來豬進口做等號這個說法您同意嗎?可以這樣講科學上但是實際上國際標準不是這樣啦是按照進口豬肉來做檢驗那檢驗沒有萊克多巴胺就準進口這是國際標準\n228857\t249754\t委員長我要請教在政府的公務出國報告資訊網的網站上我查到了八件公務員到美國進行肉品的這個查核報告是有關美牛的因為我們知道自從開放進口後政府要定期的查核但是但是2021年當政府要開放美豬來台時明明承諾要到美國查場\n251223\t251343\t﹚陳昭姿\n264281\t290323\t院長到底美豬茶廠報告是機密嗎?還是有什麼不可告人的處呢?沒有,這個我想剛才衛福部部長說是有是茶廠,但是為什麼掛鈴我請他說明。部長,掛鈴?剛剛委員講的有一個地方不太正確啦。院長,部長我就請你說為什麼美豬茶廠是掛鈴?有。美牛茶廠有8件,美豬茶廠已經兩三年為什麼是掛鈴?\n291164\t316971\t我們有去查了,那也許...好,那這樣是不是這樣子,這件事部長可不可以會後,就是我相信你們有報告,那你是不是會後馬上請將官機關上傳。我覺得國人有權利去了解這個檢查報告的內容,好嗎?好,委員查場很重要啦,但是進口的每一批豬肉都要檢查更重要。報告是公定文書,我們了解,好。\n318646\t346183\t院長關於美國豬肉進口施藥署是前後不同調的2014年江副署長說實地查核的範圍包括牧場、屠宰場及官方的衛生安全管制機制透過實地查場施藥署還可以直接指定只有合格牧場生產肉品才准進來但是去年10月副署長林金富說所謂的查場是系統性的查核是雙方研議出幾家賞賬名單再由我方去查核\n347083\t367800\t言下之意說並不是主場查核。請稍後。2021年朱成章院長為了推動開放美豬進口也在立法院承諾會赴美茶廠通過的才可以進口。也就是主場查驗的精神。請問院長您對於食藥署前後不同調您的看法是如何?\n368437\t388152\t我想可能在國際的標準上在這9年間確實是有一些改變也說不定但是我們是最重要我還是在強調的是說在目前有一段時間委員我跟你講一下這個2023年面臨到COVID-19我們茶廠實際上也是有一些困難我承認\n396618\t403797\t我們了解那院長對於到底要實地主場查核還是所謂的系統性抽樣查核您的想法呢?\n404897\t429615\t應該是系統性查核,因為不可能主場查核啦。這個太負責任說法,因為這個在打臉江玉敏,也打臉蘇貞昌院長在立法院的承諾。所以我說這是規定可能在幾年內都有些改變。食藥署說10年未檢出瘦肉精,在下面103年到122年衛生單位於抽驗豬肉檢驗已行瘦體數,也就是瘦肉精。\n430676\t454983\t總共19300件,結果均未檢出。這是他2月發的新聞稿。這個10年未檢出,院長您相信這個說法嗎?我當然相信。您相信這個說法?我可能要給你一些資料,您可能被騙了。好,我們先來看看。2015年、2018年農委會,這近10年內喔。剛才講的是進口。前端飼養。對。\n458274\t458454\t﹚陳昭姿\n481926\t488568\t你剛剛說你相信食藥署10年無查出的這個說法。那個是進口豬肉。好,下一張。\n490345\t515748\t事實上瘦肉精近5年都有違法使用。院長根據食藥署自己的國際期刊Journal of FDA同仁所投書的報告2011年到2015年抽驗1487份續產品檢測瘦肉精有34件不合格有24件為國內產品這邊張市長英文寫的這是第一個另外我要告訴院長監察院在2011年的時候\n517910\t517930\t委員長．\n533988\t534788\t現在我們在討論銷售專跟後市場的問題\n556340\t577259\t施藥署說10年來未檢出,你覺得這個說法正確嗎?該這樣講嗎?我要看一下這個施藥署的資料施藥署的研究報告自己刊登在期刊國際期刊委員他這個資料是commercial livestock product就是說所有商業的蓄產品\n578300\t582662\t我想這件事太離譜了就是說有這些資料還10年未檢出這個非常粗糙的一個說法院長這個是假訊息啊這是官方的假訊息啊10年未檢出\n600716\t603598\t我認為署長部長還是誰要負責呢?我認為署長部長還是誰要負責呢?我認為署長部長還是誰要負責呢?我認為署長部長還是誰要負責呢?\n629983\t649046\t院長您看到這個號碼追溯號碼就是這次疑似西部特羅肉片的這個瘦肉精使用事件這個是有溯源資料我想知道衛福部到現在有沒有掌握這一批這一批的流向產品總量賣出的數量跟回收的數量有沒有這個數字\n650548\t667287\t這個目前都已經有收集下來,都下架。但是我們還沒有看到這個報告數字。已經檢驗了都沒有問題,都沒有含史普特羅。我要談的是,你的產品總量,如果你有數字非常好,趕快讓國人知道,如果\n668413\t684016\t你沒有數字,那就是有點…同一批要九十幾件,大概都沒有…好,好,那我要告訴…我要告訴部長或院長,如果即便你有產品總量,我認為那是不正確的。為什麼呢?\n685182\t710625\t一隻豬屠宰之後只會吃到肉品嗎?只賣出肉品嗎?人民只吃到肉品嗎?內臟賣不賣?肝臟賣不賣?你追溯的東西,剛剛的報告,增加報告,有幾千件是限制肉品。為什麼我會這樣說呢?為什麼我會這樣說呢?好,院長請你先看這一張投影片的兩張照片。左邊是台湯的梅花肉片。\n711943\t739963\t右邊是台堂的豬肝片,豬肝的包裝,他們都宣稱這一盒經得及考驗請問院長你有看出這兩張照片有什麼不同嗎?一個是豬肝一個是豬肉我來告訴院長答案,因為我圈起來了這個肉片的部分它有溯源標章有個QR Code可以去掃有提供產銷履歷很好\n741144\t751494\t但是,但是,請看豬肝的部分,空空的。豬肝沒有溯源徽章,沒有產銷履歷,沒有辦法溯源。院長,豬肝上什麼都沒有辦法。\n758303\t762448\t委員你是藥學的專家我剛才講過一群豬用同樣的飼料去餵養然後如果有瘦肉精在裡面\n777706\t784831\t議員長,一隻豬假設吃下了瘦肉精,牠只會停留在肉片嗎?當然不會嘛。但是所有的肉片,所有的肉片都沒有喔。哪一個地方含量比較高喔?假設要採檢時間喔。反正,議員長\n807024\t830805\t豬肝沒有辦法溯源,內臟沒有辦法溯源,這是個敘事吧?我們這個豬肝的溯源的部分,我請...我這邊說明一下齁,我們國內的豬隻的溯源系統是第一個是採自願性的,那台湯的豬隻是有溯源的。我了解,這是自願性,它現在還不是強制性的齁,當然將來可以考慮,但是我要告訴現在是有偏差的。肉片有溯源,極致,但是內臟沒有。\n833936\t848426\t未來可以考慮啦,未來可以考慮。這兩張等一下再讓院長來,交給院長來去處理。現在台中市查出來的是肉片,不是內臟。內臟已經成了食安漏洞了。\n856585\t861867\t我們國家允許的殘留量含量你看肝臟腎臟跟肌肉是不一樣的肝臟是允許有4倍高\n876152\t883299\t你我的醫學背景都了解。我覺得建議很好。未來內臟也要做檢查。如果今天不幸換成西部陀螺更油,這個數字不會只有4倍。\n895788\t913130\t這是肉洞欸!這是西部特羅檢驗出來很低啊!我們要做很多預防,所以院長可不可以有個時程?因為本席認為內臟目前是食安的肉洞,那可不可能有一個時程去研議這件事情?怎麼樣?\n929465\t930328\t臨時發言委員：陳昭姿\n","txt":"有請院長。請陳院長備詢。謝謝您剛剛的食安專題報告。我想請問院長,您對於落實源頭管理確保國人食安,您給自己打幾分?\n從2016年之前跟2016年以後我們來做一個比較我剛才講過我看你系統性的這個食安問題已經大幅的減少大部分都是個案的問題所以我覺得這個食安問題之所以會這樣好不是只有中央政府的努力包括了地方政府學界民間業界都有所以我整體來看整體來看相對於亞洲附近的國家我覺得台灣的食安是不錯的\n好,謝謝院長。 院長我下面想請教您一個邏輯問題。針對開放美國萊豬進口以下說法何者正確?\n好,如果政府開放\n所以院長的答案是上面還是下面?\n是未檢出就等於沒有使用呢?還是不能有這樣的結論?在這裡的話,未檢出我們只能夠講說說沒有檢出。沒有檢出對不對?就是沒有檢出。好,院長沒有檢出不代表沒有使用才是正確的。但是委員,我們現在用萊克多巴胺的檢驗是用HPOC。HPOC是一個相當精準的檢驗的方法。\n陳吉仲前部長說萊克多巴胺它的半衰期短代謝非常快24小時內會代謝掉八成根據我的精算大概只剩百分之二那農民只要在兩天前停藥事實上殘留量會大幅的衰減院長這個表示說未減出不代表未使用你同意嗎\n我同意,但是委員我要講的就是說您是藥學的專家所以我不敢跟你拔門弄斧但是呢但是我們現在各國都是用進口豬肉來做檢驗這也是唯一的標準也是國際標準謝謝院長謝謝院長好去年10月食藥署副署長說這幾年都沒有來豬進口院長如果我們剛剛有這樣的一個小共識沒有檢出未必代表沒有使用的話\n其實我強調的是希望官員能夠把話講清楚。\n沒有檢出就是沒有來豬進口做等號這個說法您同意嗎?可以這樣講科學上但是實際上國際標準不是這樣啦是按照進口豬肉來做檢驗那檢驗沒有萊克多巴胺就準進口這是國際標準\n委員長我要請教在政府的公務出國報告資訊網的網站上我查到了八件公務員到美國進行肉品的這個查核報告是有關美牛的因為我們知道自從開放進口後政府要定期的查核但是但是2021年當政府要開放美豬來台時明明承諾要到美國查場\n﹚陳昭姿\n院長到底美豬茶廠報告是機密嗎?還是有什麼不可告人的處呢?沒有,這個我想剛才衛福部部長說是有是茶廠,但是為什麼掛鈴我請他說明。部長,掛鈴?剛剛委員講的有一個地方不太正確啦。院長,部長我就請你說為什麼美豬茶廠是掛鈴?有。美牛茶廠有8件,美豬茶廠已經兩三年為什麼是掛鈴?\n我們有去查了,那也許...好,那這樣是不是這樣子,這件事部長可不可以會後,就是我相信你們有報告,那你是不是會後馬上請將官機關上傳。我覺得國人有權利去了解這個檢查報告的內容,好嗎?好,委員查場很重要啦,但是進口的每一批豬肉都要檢查更重要。報告是公定文書,我們了解,好。\n院長關於美國豬肉進口施藥署是前後不同調的2014年江副署長說實地查核的範圍包括牧場、屠宰場及官方的衛生安全管制機制透過實地查場施藥署還可以直接指定只有合格牧場生產肉品才准進來但是去年10月副署長林金富說所謂的查場是系統性的查核是雙方研議出幾家賞賬名單再由我方去查核\n言下之意說並不是主場查核。請稍後。2021年朱成章院長為了推動開放美豬進口也在立法院承諾會赴美茶廠通過的才可以進口。也就是主場查驗的精神。請問院長您對於食藥署前後不同調您的看法是如何?\n我想可能在國際的標準上在這9年間確實是有一些改變也說不定但是我們是最重要我還是在強調的是說在目前有一段時間委員我跟你講一下這個2023年面臨到COVID-19我們茶廠實際上也是有一些困難我承認\n我們了解那院長對於到底要實地主場查核還是所謂的系統性抽樣查核您的想法呢?\n應該是系統性查核,因為不可能主場查核啦。這個太負責任說法,因為這個在打臉江玉敏,也打臉蘇貞昌院長在立法院的承諾。所以我說這是規定可能在幾年內都有些改變。食藥署說10年未檢出瘦肉精,在下面103年到122年衛生單位於抽驗豬肉檢驗已行瘦體數,也就是瘦肉精。\n總共19300件,結果均未檢出。這是他2月發的新聞稿。這個10年未檢出,院長您相信這個說法嗎?我當然相信。您相信這個說法?我可能要給你一些資料,您可能被騙了。好,我們先來看看。2015年、2018年農委會,這近10年內喔。剛才講的是進口。前端飼養。對。\n﹚陳昭姿\n你剛剛說你相信食藥署10年無查出的這個說法。那個是進口豬肉。好,下一張。\n事實上瘦肉精近5年都有違法使用。院長根據食藥署自己的國際期刊Journal of FDA同仁所投書的報告2011年到2015年抽驗1487份續產品檢測瘦肉精有34件不合格有24件為國內產品這邊張市長英文寫的這是第一個另外我要告訴院長監察院在2011年的時候\n委員長．\n現在我們在討論銷售專跟後市場的問題\n施藥署說10年來未檢出,你覺得這個說法正確嗎?該這樣講嗎?我要看一下這個施藥署的資料施藥署的研究報告自己刊登在期刊國際期刊委員他這個資料是commercial livestock product就是說所有商業的蓄產品\n我想這件事太離譜了就是說有這些資料還10年未檢出這個非常粗糙的一個說法院長這個是假訊息啊這是官方的假訊息啊10年未檢出\n我認為署長部長還是誰要負責呢?我認為署長部長還是誰要負責呢?我認為署長部長還是誰要負責呢?我認為署長部長還是誰要負責呢?\n院長您看到這個號碼追溯號碼就是這次疑似西部特羅肉片的這個瘦肉精使用事件這個是有溯源資料我想知道衛福部到現在有沒有掌握這一批這一批的流向產品總量賣出的數量跟回收的數量有沒有這個數字\n這個目前都已經有收集下來,都下架。但是我們還沒有看到這個報告數字。已經檢驗了都沒有問題,都沒有含史普特羅。我要談的是,你的產品總量,如果你有數字非常好,趕快讓國人知道,如果\n你沒有數字,那就是有點…同一批要九十幾件,大概都沒有…好,好,那我要告訴…我要告訴部長或院長,如果即便你有產品總量,我認為那是不正確的。為什麼呢?\n一隻豬屠宰之後只會吃到肉品嗎?只賣出肉品嗎?人民只吃到肉品嗎?內臟賣不賣?肝臟賣不賣?你追溯的東西,剛剛的報告,增加報告,有幾千件是限制肉品。為什麼我會這樣說呢?為什麼我會這樣說呢?好,院長請你先看這一張投影片的兩張照片。左邊是台湯的梅花肉片。\n右邊是台堂的豬肝片,豬肝的包裝,他們都宣稱這一盒經得及考驗請問院長你有看出這兩張照片有什麼不同嗎?一個是豬肝一個是豬肉我來告訴院長答案,因為我圈起來了這個肉片的部分它有溯源標章有個QR Code可以去掃有提供產銷履歷很好\n但是,但是,請看豬肝的部分,空空的。豬肝沒有溯源徽章,沒有產銷履歷,沒有辦法溯源。院長,豬肝上什麼都沒有辦法。\n委員你是藥學的專家我剛才講過一群豬用同樣的飼料去餵養然後如果有瘦肉精在裡面\n議員長,一隻豬假設吃下了瘦肉精,牠只會停留在肉片嗎?當然不會嘛。但是所有的肉片,所有的肉片都沒有喔。哪一個地方含量比較高喔?假設要採檢時間喔。反正,議員長\n豬肝沒有辦法溯源,內臟沒有辦法溯源,這是個敘事吧?我們這個豬肝的溯源的部分,我請...我這邊說明一下齁,我們國內的豬隻的溯源系統是第一個是採自願性的,那台湯的豬隻是有溯源的。我了解,這是自願性,它現在還不是強制性的齁,當然將來可以考慮,但是我要告訴現在是有偏差的。肉片有溯源,極致,但是內臟沒有。\n未來可以考慮啦,未來可以考慮。這兩張等一下再讓院長來,交給院長來去處理。現在台中市查出來的是肉片,不是內臟。內臟已經成了食安漏洞了。\n我們國家允許的殘留量含量你看肝臟腎臟跟肌肉是不一樣的肝臟是允許有4倍高\n你我的醫學背景都了解。我覺得建議很好。未來內臟也要做檢查。如果今天不幸換成西部陀螺更油,這個數字不會只有4倍。\n這是肉洞欸!這是西部特羅檢驗出來很低啊!我們要做很多預防,所以院長可不可以有個時程?因為本席認為內臟目前是食安的肉洞,那可不可能有一個時程去研議這件事情?怎麼樣?\n臨時發言委員：陳昭姿\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.458 --> 00:17.033\n有請院長。請陳院長備詢。謝謝您剛剛的食安專題報告。我想請問院長,您對於落實源頭管理確保國人食安,您給自己打幾分?\n\n00:20.831 --> 00:47.776\n從2016年之前跟2016年以後我們來做一個比較我剛才講過我看你系統性的這個食安問題已經大幅的減少大部分都是個案的問題所以我覺得這個食安問題之所以會這樣好不是只有中央政府的努力包括了地方政府學界民間業界都有所以我整體來看整體來看相對於亞洲附近的國家我覺得台灣的食安是不錯的\n\n00:48.646 --> 00:53.113\n好,謝謝院長。院長我下面想請教您一個邏輯問題。針對開放美國萊豬進口以下說法何者正確?\n\n00:59.653 --> 01:00.294\n好,如果政府開放\n\n01:19.434 --> 01:20.915\n所以院長的答案是上面還是下面?\n\n01:46.249 --> 02:10.662\n是未檢出就等於沒有使用呢?還是不能有這樣的結論?在這裡的話,未檢出我們只能夠講說說沒有檢出。沒有檢出對不對?就是沒有檢出。好,院長沒有檢出不代表沒有使用才是正確的。但是委員,我們現在用萊克多巴胺的檢驗是用HPOC。HPOC是一個相當精準的檢驗的方法。\n\n02:12.843 --> 02:34.722\n陳吉仲前部長說萊克多巴胺它的半衰期短代謝非常快24小時內會代謝掉八成根據我的精算大概只剩百分之二那農民只要在兩天前停藥事實上殘留量會大幅的衰減院長這個表示說未減出不代表未使用你同意嗎\n\n02:35.662 --> 03:03.084\n我同意,但是委員我要講的就是說您是藥學的專家所以我不敢跟你拔門弄斧但是呢但是我們現在各國都是用進口豬肉來做檢驗這也是唯一的標準也是國際標準謝謝院長謝謝院長好去年10月食藥署副署長說這幾年都沒有來豬進口院長如果我們剛剛有這樣的一個小共識沒有檢出未必代表沒有使用的話\n\n03:04.125 --> 03:06.647\n其實我強調的是希望官員能夠把話講清楚。\n\n03:27.162 --> 03:47.440\n沒有檢出就是沒有來豬進口做等號這個說法您同意嗎?可以這樣講科學上但是實際上國際標準不是這樣啦是按照進口豬肉來做檢驗那檢驗沒有萊克多巴胺就準進口這是國際標準\n\n03:48.857 --> 04:09.754\n委員長我要請教在政府的公務出國報告資訊網的網站上我查到了八件公務員到美國進行肉品的這個查核報告是有關美牛的因為我們知道自從開放進口後政府要定期的查核但是但是2021年當政府要開放美豬來台時明明承諾要到美國查場\n\n04:11.223 --> 04:11.343\n﹚陳昭姿\n\n04:24.281 --> 04:50.323\n院長到底美豬茶廠報告是機密嗎?還是有什麼不可告人的處呢?沒有,這個我想剛才衛福部部長說是有是茶廠,但是為什麼掛鈴我請他說明。部長,掛鈴?剛剛委員講的有一個地方不太正確啦。院長,部長我就請你說為什麼美豬茶廠是掛鈴?有。美牛茶廠有8件,美豬茶廠已經兩三年為什麼是掛鈴?\n\n04:51.164 --> 05:16.971\n我們有去查了,那也許...好,那這樣是不是這樣子,這件事部長可不可以會後,就是我相信你們有報告,那你是不是會後馬上請將官機關上傳。我覺得國人有權利去了解這個檢查報告的內容,好嗎?好,委員查場很重要啦,但是進口的每一批豬肉都要檢查更重要。報告是公定文書,我們了解,好。\n\n05:18.646 --> 05:46.183\n院長關於美國豬肉進口施藥署是前後不同調的2014年江副署長說實地查核的範圍包括牧場、屠宰場及官方的衛生安全管制機制透過實地查場施藥署還可以直接指定只有合格牧場生產肉品才准進來但是去年10月副署長林金富說所謂的查場是系統性的查核是雙方研議出幾家賞賬名單再由我方去查核\n\n05:47.083 --> 06:07.800\n言下之意說並不是主場查核。請稍後。2021年朱成章院長為了推動開放美豬進口也在立法院承諾會赴美茶廠通過的才可以進口。也就是主場查驗的精神。請問院長您對於食藥署前後不同調您的看法是如何?\n\n06:08.437 --> 06:28.152\n我想可能在國際的標準上在這9年間確實是有一些改變也說不定但是我們是最重要我還是在強調的是說在目前有一段時間委員我跟你講一下這個2023年面臨到COVID-19我們茶廠實際上也是有一些困難我承認\n\n06:36.618 --> 06:43.797\n我們了解那院長對於到底要實地主場查核還是所謂的系統性抽樣查核您的想法呢?\n\n06:44.897 --> 07:09.615\n應該是系統性查核,因為不可能主場查核啦。這個太負責任說法,因為這個在打臉江玉敏,也打臉蘇貞昌院長在立法院的承諾。所以我說這是規定可能在幾年內都有些改變。食藥署說10年未檢出瘦肉精,在下面103年到122年衛生單位於抽驗豬肉檢驗已行瘦體數,也就是瘦肉精。\n\n07:10.676 --> 07:34.983\n總共19300件,結果均未檢出。這是他2月發的新聞稿。這個10年未檢出,院長您相信這個說法嗎?我當然相信。您相信這個說法?我可能要給你一些資料,您可能被騙了。好,我們先來看看。2015年、2018年農委會,這近10年內喔。剛才講的是進口。前端飼養。對。\n\n07:38.274 --> 07:38.454\n﹚陳昭姿\n\n08:01.926 --> 08:08.568\n你剛剛說你相信食藥署10年無查出的這個說法。那個是進口豬肉。好,下一張。\n\n08:10.345 --> 08:35.748\n事實上瘦肉精近5年都有違法使用。院長根據食藥署自己的國際期刊JournalofFDA同仁所投書的報告2011年到2015年抽驗1487份續產品檢測瘦肉精有34件不合格有24件為國內產品這邊張市長英文寫的這是第一個另外我要告訴院長監察院在2011年的時候\n\n08:37.910 --> 08:37.930\n委員長．\n\n08:53.988 --> 08:54.788\n現在我們在討論銷售專跟後市場的問題\n\n09:16.340 --> 09:37.259\n施藥署說10年來未檢出,你覺得這個說法正確嗎?該這樣講嗎?我要看一下這個施藥署的資料施藥署的研究報告自己刊登在期刊國際期刊委員他這個資料是commerciallivestockproduct就是說所有商業的蓄產品\n\n09:38.300 --> 09:42.662\n我想這件事太離譜了就是說有這些資料還10年未檢出這個非常粗糙的一個說法院長這個是假訊息啊這是官方的假訊息啊10年未檢出\n\n10:00.716 --> 10:03.598\n我認為署長部長還是誰要負責呢?我認為署長部長還是誰要負責呢?我認為署長部長還是誰要負責呢?我認為署長部長還是誰要負責呢?\n\n10:29.983 --> 10:49.046\n院長您看到這個號碼追溯號碼就是這次疑似西部特羅肉片的這個瘦肉精使用事件這個是有溯源資料我想知道衛福部到現在有沒有掌握這一批這一批的流向產品總量賣出的數量跟回收的數量有沒有這個數字\n\n10:50.548 --> 11:07.287\n這個目前都已經有收集下來,都下架。但是我們還沒有看到這個報告數字。已經檢驗了都沒有問題,都沒有含史普特羅。我要談的是,你的產品總量,如果你有數字非常好,趕快讓國人知道,如果\n\n11:08.413 --> 11:24.016\n你沒有數字,那就是有點…同一批要九十幾件,大概都沒有…好,好,那我要告訴…我要告訴部長或院長,如果即便你有產品總量,我認為那是不正確的。為什麼呢?\n\n11:25.182 --> 11:50.625\n一隻豬屠宰之後只會吃到肉品嗎?只賣出肉品嗎?人民只吃到肉品嗎?內臟賣不賣?肝臟賣不賣?你追溯的東西,剛剛的報告,增加報告,有幾千件是限制肉品。為什麼我會這樣說呢?為什麼我會這樣說呢?好,院長請你先看這一張投影片的兩張照片。左邊是台湯的梅花肉片。\n\n11:51.943 --> 12:19.963\n右邊是台堂的豬肝片,豬肝的包裝,他們都宣稱這一盒經得及考驗請問院長你有看出這兩張照片有什麼不同嗎?一個是豬肝一個是豬肉我來告訴院長答案,因為我圈起來了這個肉片的部分它有溯源標章有個QRCode可以去掃有提供產銷履歷很好\n\n12:21.144 --> 12:31.494\n但是,但是,請看豬肝的部分,空空的。豬肝沒有溯源徽章,沒有產銷履歷,沒有辦法溯源。院長,豬肝上什麼都沒有辦法。\n\n12:38.303 --> 12:42.448\n委員你是藥學的專家我剛才講過一群豬用同樣的飼料去餵養然後如果有瘦肉精在裡面\n\n12:57.706 --> 13:04.831\n議員長,一隻豬假設吃下了瘦肉精,牠只會停留在肉片嗎?當然不會嘛。但是所有的肉片,所有的肉片都沒有喔。哪一個地方含量比較高喔?假設要採檢時間喔。反正,議員長\n\n13:27.024 --> 13:50.805\n豬肝沒有辦法溯源,內臟沒有辦法溯源,這是個敘事吧?我們這個豬肝的溯源的部分,我請...我這邊說明一下齁,我們國內的豬隻的溯源系統是第一個是採自願性的,那台湯的豬隻是有溯源的。我了解,這是自願性,它現在還不是強制性的齁,當然將來可以考慮,但是我要告訴現在是有偏差的。肉片有溯源,極致,但是內臟沒有。\n\n13:53.936 --> 14:08.426\n未來可以考慮啦,未來可以考慮。這兩張等一下再讓院長來,交給院長來去處理。現在台中市查出來的是肉片,不是內臟。內臟已經成了食安漏洞了。\n\n14:16.585 --> 14:21.867\n我們國家允許的殘留量含量你看肝臟腎臟跟肌肉是不一樣的肝臟是允許有4倍高\n\n14:36.152 --> 14:43.299\n你我的醫學背景都了解。我覺得建議很好。未來內臟也要做檢查。如果今天不幸換成西部陀螺更油,這個數字不會只有4倍。\n\n14:55.788 --> 15:13.130\n這是肉洞欸!這是西部特羅檢驗出來很低啊!我們要做很多預防,所以院長可不可以有個時程?因為本席認為內臟目前是食安的肉洞,那可不可能有一個時程去研議這件事情?怎麼樣?\n\n15:29.465 --> 15:30.328\n臨時發言委員：陳昭姿\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.458,"end":17.033,"text":"有請院長。請陳院長備詢。謝謝您剛剛的食安專題報告。我想請問院長,您對於落實源頭管理確保國人食安,您給自己打幾分?"},{"start":20.831,"end":47.776,"text":"從2016年之前跟2016年以後我們來做一個比較我剛才講過我看你系統性的這個食安問題已經大幅的減少大部分都是個案的問題所以我覺得這個食安問題之所以會這樣好不是只有中央政府的努力包括了地方政府學界民間業界都有所以我整體來看整體來看相對於亞洲附近的國家我覺得台灣的食安是不錯的"},{"start":48.646,"end":53.113,"text":"好,謝謝院長。 院長我下面想請教您一個邏輯問題。針對開放美國萊豬進口以下說法何者正確?"},{"start":59.653,"end":60.294,"text":"好,如果政府開放"},{"start":79.434,"end":80.915,"text":"所以院長的答案是上面還是下面?"},{"start":106.249,"end":130.662,"text":"是未檢出就等於沒有使用呢?還是不能有這樣的結論?在這裡的話,未檢出我們只能夠講說說沒有檢出。沒有檢出對不對?就是沒有檢出。好,院長沒有檢出不代表沒有使用才是正確的。但是委員,我們現在用萊克多巴胺的檢驗是用HPOC。HPOC是一個相當精準的檢驗的方法。"},{"start":132.843,"end":154.722,"text":"陳吉仲前部長說萊克多巴胺它的半衰期短代謝非常快24小時內會代謝掉八成根據我的精算大概只剩百分之二那農民只要在兩天前停藥事實上殘留量會大幅的衰減院長這個表示說未減出不代表未使用你同意嗎"},{"start":155.662,"end":183.084,"text":"我同意,但是委員我要講的就是說您是藥學的專家所以我不敢跟你拔門弄斧但是呢但是我們現在各國都是用進口豬肉來做檢驗這也是唯一的標準也是國際標準謝謝院長謝謝院長好去年10月食藥署副署長說這幾年都沒有來豬進口院長如果我們剛剛有這樣的一個小共識沒有檢出未必代表沒有使用的話"},{"start":184.125,"end":186.647,"text":"其實我強調的是希望官員能夠把話講清楚。"},{"start":207.162,"end":227.44,"text":"沒有檢出就是沒有來豬進口做等號這個說法您同意嗎?可以這樣講科學上但是實際上國際標準不是這樣啦是按照進口豬肉來做檢驗那檢驗沒有萊克多巴胺就準進口這是國際標準"},{"start":228.857,"end":249.754,"text":"委員長我要請教在政府的公務出國報告資訊網的網站上我查到了八件公務員到美國進行肉品的這個查核報告是有關美牛的因為我們知道自從開放進口後政府要定期的查核但是但是2021年當政府要開放美豬來台時明明承諾要到美國查場"},{"start":251.223,"end":251.343,"text":"﹚陳昭姿"},{"start":264.281,"end":290.323,"text":"院長到底美豬茶廠報告是機密嗎?還是有什麼不可告人的處呢?沒有,這個我想剛才衛福部部長說是有是茶廠,但是為什麼掛鈴我請他說明。部長,掛鈴?剛剛委員講的有一個地方不太正確啦。院長,部長我就請你說為什麼美豬茶廠是掛鈴?有。美牛茶廠有8件,美豬茶廠已經兩三年為什麼是掛鈴?"},{"start":291.164,"end":316.971,"text":"我們有去查了,那也許...好,那這樣是不是這樣子,這件事部長可不可以會後,就是我相信你們有報告,那你是不是會後馬上請將官機關上傳。我覺得國人有權利去了解這個檢查報告的內容,好嗎?好,委員查場很重要啦,但是進口的每一批豬肉都要檢查更重要。報告是公定文書,我們了解,好。"},{"start":318.646,"end":346.183,"text":"院長關於美國豬肉進口施藥署是前後不同調的2014年江副署長說實地查核的範圍包括牧場、屠宰場及官方的衛生安全管制機制透過實地查場施藥署還可以直接指定只有合格牧場生產肉品才准進來但是去年10月副署長林金富說所謂的查場是系統性的查核是雙方研議出幾家賞賬名單再由我方去查核"},{"start":347.083,"end":367.8,"text":"言下之意說並不是主場查核。請稍後。2021年朱成章院長為了推動開放美豬進口也在立法院承諾會赴美茶廠通過的才可以進口。也就是主場查驗的精神。請問院長您對於食藥署前後不同調您的看法是如何?"},{"start":368.437,"end":388.152,"text":"我想可能在國際的標準上在這9年間確實是有一些改變也說不定但是我們是最重要我還是在強調的是說在目前有一段時間委員我跟你講一下這個2023年面臨到COVID-19我們茶廠實際上也是有一些困難我承認"},{"start":396.618,"end":403.797,"text":"我們了解那院長對於到底要實地主場查核還是所謂的系統性抽樣查核您的想法呢?"},{"start":404.897,"end":429.615,"text":"應該是系統性查核,因為不可能主場查核啦。這個太負責任說法,因為這個在打臉江玉敏,也打臉蘇貞昌院長在立法院的承諾。所以我說這是規定可能在幾年內都有些改變。食藥署說10年未檢出瘦肉精,在下面103年到122年衛生單位於抽驗豬肉檢驗已行瘦體數,也就是瘦肉精。"},{"start":430.676,"end":454.983,"text":"總共19300件,結果均未檢出。這是他2月發的新聞稿。這個10年未檢出,院長您相信這個說法嗎?我當然相信。您相信這個說法?我可能要給你一些資料,您可能被騙了。好,我們先來看看。2015年、2018年農委會,這近10年內喔。剛才講的是進口。前端飼養。對。"},{"start":458.274,"end":458.454,"text":"﹚陳昭姿"},{"start":481.926,"end":488.568,"text":"你剛剛說你相信食藥署10年無查出的這個說法。那個是進口豬肉。好,下一張。"},{"start":490.345,"end":515.748,"text":"事實上瘦肉精近5年都有違法使用。院長根據食藥署自己的國際期刊Journal of FDA同仁所投書的報告2011年到2015年抽驗1487份續產品檢測瘦肉精有34件不合格有24件為國內產品這邊張市長英文寫的這是第一個另外我要告訴院長監察院在2011年的時候"},{"start":517.91,"end":517.93,"text":"委員長．"},{"start":533.988,"end":534.788,"text":"現在我們在討論銷售專跟後市場的問題"},{"start":556.34,"end":577.259,"text":"施藥署說10年來未檢出,你覺得這個說法正確嗎?該這樣講嗎?我要看一下這個施藥署的資料施藥署的研究報告自己刊登在期刊國際期刊委員他這個資料是commercial livestock product就是說所有商業的蓄產品"},{"start":578.3,"end":582.662,"text":"我想這件事太離譜了就是說有這些資料還10年未檢出這個非常粗糙的一個說法院長這個是假訊息啊這是官方的假訊息啊10年未檢出"},{"start":600.716,"end":603.598,"text":"我認為署長部長還是誰要負責呢?我認為署長部長還是誰要負責呢?我認為署長部長還是誰要負責呢?我認為署長部長還是誰要負責呢?"},{"start":629.983,"end":649.046,"text":"院長您看到這個號碼追溯號碼就是這次疑似西部特羅肉片的這個瘦肉精使用事件這個是有溯源資料我想知道衛福部到現在有沒有掌握這一批這一批的流向產品總量賣出的數量跟回收的數量有沒有這個數字"},{"start":650.548,"end":667.287,"text":"這個目前都已經有收集下來,都下架。但是我們還沒有看到這個報告數字。已經檢驗了都沒有問題,都沒有含史普特羅。我要談的是,你的產品總量,如果你有數字非常好,趕快讓國人知道,如果"},{"start":668.413,"end":684.016,"text":"你沒有數字,那就是有點…同一批要九十幾件,大概都沒有…好,好,那我要告訴…我要告訴部長或院長,如果即便你有產品總量,我認為那是不正確的。為什麼呢?"},{"start":685.182,"end":710.625,"text":"一隻豬屠宰之後只會吃到肉品嗎?只賣出肉品嗎?人民只吃到肉品嗎?內臟賣不賣?肝臟賣不賣?你追溯的東西,剛剛的報告,增加報告,有幾千件是限制肉品。為什麼我會這樣說呢?為什麼我會這樣說呢?好,院長請你先看這一張投影片的兩張照片。左邊是台湯的梅花肉片。"},{"start":711.943,"end":739.963,"text":"右邊是台堂的豬肝片,豬肝的包裝,他們都宣稱這一盒經得及考驗請問院長你有看出這兩張照片有什麼不同嗎?一個是豬肝一個是豬肉我來告訴院長答案,因為我圈起來了這個肉片的部分它有溯源標章有個QR Code可以去掃有提供產銷履歷很好"},{"start":741.144,"end":751.494,"text":"但是,但是,請看豬肝的部分,空空的。豬肝沒有溯源徽章,沒有產銷履歷,沒有辦法溯源。院長,豬肝上什麼都沒有辦法。"},{"start":758.303,"end":762.448,"text":"委員你是藥學的專家我剛才講過一群豬用同樣的飼料去餵養然後如果有瘦肉精在裡面"},{"start":777.706,"end":784.831,"text":"議員長,一隻豬假設吃下了瘦肉精,牠只會停留在肉片嗎?當然不會嘛。但是所有的肉片,所有的肉片都沒有喔。哪一個地方含量比較高喔?假設要採檢時間喔。反正,議員長"},{"start":807.024,"end":830.805,"text":"豬肝沒有辦法溯源,內臟沒有辦法溯源,這是個敘事吧?我們這個豬肝的溯源的部分,我請...我這邊說明一下齁,我們國內的豬隻的溯源系統是第一個是採自願性的,那台湯的豬隻是有溯源的。我了解,這是自願性,它現在還不是強制性的齁,當然將來可以考慮,但是我要告訴現在是有偏差的。肉片有溯源,極致,但是內臟沒有。"},{"start":833.936,"end":848.426,"text":"未來可以考慮啦,未來可以考慮。這兩張等一下再讓院長來,交給院長來去處理。現在台中市查出來的是肉片,不是內臟。內臟已經成了食安漏洞了。"},{"start":856.585,"end":861.867,"text":"我們國家允許的殘留量含量你看肝臟腎臟跟肌肉是不一樣的肝臟是允許有4倍高"},{"start":876.152,"end":883.299,"text":"你我的醫學背景都了解。我覺得建議很好。未來內臟也要做檢查。如果今天不幸換成西部陀螺更油,這個數字不會只有4倍。"},{"start":895.788,"end":913.13,"text":"這是肉洞欸!這是西部特羅檢驗出來很低啊!我們要做很多預防,所以院長可不可以有個時程?因為本席認為內臟目前是食安的肉洞,那可不可能有一個時程去研議這件事情?怎麼樣?"},{"start":929.465,"end":930.328,"text":"臨時發言委員：陳昭姿"}]}}}}