{"id":149130,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149130","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61d28f3f53a2feb608c1c7b5db0f5106b347916f9bc661eaf8ba9b0039caa7a663f0fce8a60f9f685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:14:46 - 11:30:33","影片長度":"00:15:47","會議時間":"2024-02-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-23","duration":947,"end_time":"2024-02-23T11:30:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-23T11:14:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":617,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時14分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請陳院長建仁院長。"],["主席：麻煩請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：洪委員早。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長好。國人都關心食安，這就是為什麼立法院要求您率相關部會同仁來做食安專報。"],["陳院長建仁：對，應該的。"],["洪委員孟楷：這次我們強調瘦肉精的食安事件，從過年前到現在，讓事件走偏的是中央衛福部次長王必勝，在第一時間地方政府驗出問題就是希望解決問題、找出問題、釐清原因，但為什麼會看到中央跟地方一時間不同步？也因此我先順著李坤城委員剛剛的質詢，你也講到未來的事件。本席也希望經過這一次之後未來的事件……你有提到地方政府如果驗到太低的劑量時，應該要再做同批次的檢驗，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，低是多低？標準是什麼？"],["陳院長建仁：我想這個會按照不同的……來看，這個一定要訂定標準……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為現在的食安，如果說檢驗食品發生異狀的話，通報的機制為何？"],["陳院長建仁：現在的情形，如果檢驗出來有低劑量的情況下，地方政府當然就需要來通報，但是我剛才也強調，當很低劑量的時候，很可能是檢驗的誤差。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們現在是不是只有一個標準，就是「合格」或「不合格」？"],["陳院長建仁：對，現在的標準就是「檢出」或「無檢出」，但是實驗有一個實驗室的檢出標準，實驗室的檢出標準是0.001ppm，因為它很接近……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，我講一下。0.001ppm是很低的情況，檢測的值都靠近它的時候，自己就要很謹慎會不會有實驗的誤差，這也是學者專家所……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，現在的標準、現在的通報機制……"],["陳院長建仁：是不能檢出。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在的通報機制是不能檢出嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：但是因為實驗的劑……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以……"],["陳院長建仁：我講一下，實驗有實驗室最低檢出的劑量，就是0.001ppm以下，即使你有，實驗室現有的技術也檢測不來，那個叫做技術的下限，最低限就是0.001ppm，我要強調的是這個。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我想這個部分，中央也好，還是地方的實驗人員也都非常清楚跟瞭解，因為我們都相信地方政府，不管是哪一個政府的實驗人員也都是專業的，會以專業考量跟用專業對話，但目前的通報機制就是，如果是中央指派的專案，有登載系統可以回報檢驗結果，但如果是地方的專案稽查的話，結果是自行保留即可，而且發現不合格的產品，先將不合格的報告交給業者，依據食品安全衛生管理法第三十九條來做15天的申請回覆。如果確認結果無虞的時候，衛生機關單位就要對外公布不合格的名單，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對，是這樣規定。"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：也因此，本席再講，這次臺中市政府是不是都是依照食品安全衛生管理來通報、規劃？我現在請教院長。"],["陳院長建仁：我要確認的就是，實際上檢驗出來以後，剛才您講得很對，要跟業者講，業者要有15天的申訴期，申訴完了以後再來說，但是這一塊……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以這一次是不是地方政府都合乎相關的規範？"],["陳院長建仁：這一塊的操作……"],["洪委員孟楷：也都依照過去的SOP來做。"],["陳院長建仁：臺中市政府怎麼樣做，他檢驗出來以後，按照這個情形來看的話……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席只想確定，你剛剛一直在講……"],["陳院長建仁：我也是想確定臺中市政府有沒有讓台糖……"],["洪委員孟楷：來，你先聽本席把問題問完你再回答。本席只想確定，既然你也認為這一次因為劑量有驗出，本來是不得驗出的，因為有驗出，但是你認為、你的主觀認定這是相對低的，也因此你覺得地方政府應該要多驗幾批肉。"],["陳院長建仁：當然啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：好。本席就說，未來是不是中央要開定一個全國的食安會議，要求、告訴地方政府後續應該怎麼做？訂出一個標準，低是多低，多少的範圍裡面要求地方政府應該要再重新檢驗？應該要做這樣的確定，而不是今天看到臺中市政府、明天看到高雄市政府。我就請教，如果今天另外一個縣市再驗出一樣的肉，他要怎麼處理？"],["陳院長建仁：驗出一樣的，而且在低劑量的時候，要有15天的時間讓廠商申請複驗以後才公布。"],["洪委員孟楷：這是我剛才講過的話，我現在是要問你，你要怎麼做？"],["陳院長建仁：但問題是臺中市政府沒有給他15天嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：有，臺中市政府有要求台糖，所以臺中市政府才會跟業者持續在溝通啊！也在確認啊！"],["陳院長建仁：但是還沒有到這個日程的時候他就公布。第二個就是我剛才講的，你剛才講，所有的實驗室要怎麼樣來加強檢驗的水準，這個在食安五環裡面我們花了二十幾億，就是要讓地方政府的檢驗能力能夠增強，SOP我們也要來做……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，你搞錯本席問題的方向……"],["陳院長建仁：標準作業流程我們也要來做。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席現在要做的是除了這次的事件以外，接下來我們怎麼樣加強中央和地方……"],["陳院長建仁：對，對、對、對，我就是……"],["洪委員孟楷：同心一致捍衛國人的食品安全，也因此現在應該是中央如果認為在這一次過程裡面，有什麼樣的狀況可以更精進的，當然應該要訂出標準，不是嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：是，就是我剛才……"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候要訂出標準？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，就是我剛才講的……"],["洪委員孟楷：那就是過去沒有標準，什麼時候要訂出標準？"],["陳院長建仁：這就是我剛才講的SOP嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候要訂出標準？"],["陳院長建仁：這個SOP我們會請專家學者來討論，我們儘快的，可能在1、2個月的時間內就會訂出標準來。"],["洪委員孟楷：2個月內開全國的食安檢討會議，是不是這樣？"],["陳院長建仁：這個不一定要開全國的檢討會議，這有專家學者會議，其實就能夠就不同成分、不同化學品的標準……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以2個月內由誰召開？"],["陳院長建仁：當然是由食藥署啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：食藥署署長。"],["陳院長建仁：當然啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：是不是？"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。本席再請教，昨天媒體報導提到專家學者會議傳出臺中的列席代表淚灑會場，院長或是部長有沒有知道這個訊息？"],["薛部長瑞元：我是沒有接到這樣的訊息，不過……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有接到這樣的訊息……"],["薛部長瑞元：我在……"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有看到媒體報導？"],["薛部長瑞元：有，但是……"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有去瞭解一下為什麼會有這樣的訊息？照理講，地方的衛生人員也很有專業，在過年這段期間不眠不休，怎麼會說一個專家食安會議造成他淚灑會場？"],["薛部長瑞元：所以專業與科學的事情用情緒去處理是不對的啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：你現在在講是誰用情緒去處理？"],["薛部長瑞元：淚灑就是一種情緒嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你現在在指責臺中的……"],["薛部長瑞元：我沒有指責，我是說……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，部長，您這樣的回答很不精準，本席沒有辦法聽得懂你的回答是什麼意思。"],["薛部長瑞元：不必把這件事情當成一件事去處理。"],["陳院長建仁：抱歉！他真的是因為感冒。其實在昨天這個開會的過程當中有沒有淚灑，怎麼樣說都是媒體的報導，我沒有辦法去查證，可是有一件事情很重要，在昨天的討論過程當中專家學者就實驗室的操作過程當中是怎麼樣來操作有很詳盡的調查，也許在這樣調查的過程當中讓這個被調查的臺中市同仁感到有壓力也說不定，但是因為我們不在現場，而且媒體也沒有人在現場……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，您提到的重點來了，從過去到現在，本席也好或國人也好，對於所謂的專家會議，也有人建議，因為這事關全民的，不管是食品安全或是過去疫情期間國人使用疫苗等等相關安全，我們都講專家會議是不是能夠比照譬如美國，用全程直播的方式，讓大家也瞭解專家會議的專業對話，或者是專家會議可以有對外的會議紀錄？但是過去……"],["陳院長建仁：都有啊！都有啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：是，都有，但是全都是去標識化，而且都是過了1個月、2個月才出來啊！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有、沒有，我們這次的會議不像你這樣講的，你誤解了……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為是還沒有出來啊……"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！因為你還沒有看到報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，2月21日的會議有全程直播嗎？2月21日的會議有公開嗎……"],["陳院長建仁：你就下結論，這樣不好啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：2月21日的會議有公開嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有啊！但是……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有公開嘛！院長，所以我必須糾正您剛剛講的話，您剛剛講不是像我所講的，我剛剛講的每一句話都是事實。","再來，第二個部分，過去專家會議可不可以公開？"],["陳院長建仁：我們等到專家會議的結論出來了以後，當然會公開啊！但是……"],["洪委員孟楷：但是過程沒有辦法公開？"],["陳院長建仁：過去當然有啊！有些有公開啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！我必須再糾正您，如果有公開的專家會議，您可以後續再給本席資料，但是過去好幾次重大的，包括疫苗的審定，包括這次的食安會議專家會議，都沒有公開，也因此才會造成您剛剛講的，就是您也不清楚報傳臺中市代表淚灑是什麼原因，因為大家都沒有看到過程……"],["陳院長建仁：因為你在講現在嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：但是現在臺中市政府有沒有……"],["陳院長建仁：現在紀錄還沒出來嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：確實有淚灑這樣的狀況嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：紀錄還沒有出來。"],["薛部長瑞元：報告委員，有淚灑……"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在在請教院長，部長，不用插話，部長，不用插話。依照立法院職權行使法，本席有要求您發言的時候，您再發言，這樣可以嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我還是……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我可不可以請教什麼時候這個專家會議的結論會出來？"],["陳院長建仁：好，那個3月份我們就……"],["洪委員孟楷：3月幾號？現在是2月23號。"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！3月會出來，因為我們可能還要決定要不要開第二次的會議等等，但是我可以跟委員講，這個開會的結果會公告，而且開會的委員名單會公告，他們個人發表的意見也會公告。"],["洪委員孟楷：開會的委員名單會公告？"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！等到最後的時候。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，院長，我確定喔！因為之前有好幾次會議是開會委員名單沒有公告，所以您剛剛在本席質詢答復的時候已經特別講了，這一次瘦肉精事件的開會委員名單會公告。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝院長。院長，接下來我想利用一點時間，因為跟食安一樣重要的國安議題也正在發酵。"],["陳院長建仁：今天好像問食安嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：對，沒有錯，但是因為今天國安議題也持續在發酵。2月14號有發生過陸船來到金門造成翻覆的事件，我不會問您細節，您放心，我現在只要請教您幾個比較關鍵性的議題，也是國人大家都關注的，就是說在這一個過程裡面，想請教一下院長，因為現在我們看到針對海巡署相關這一些管理條例來講，有關執勤辦法，他必須在執勤的時候穿著制服並且以照相、錄音、錄影的方式來蒐證、保全相關事證。現在傳出2月14號我們的執法人員並沒有密錄器，然後船上也沒有攝影設備，你什麼時候知道這個事情？"],["陳院長建仁：這件事情是昨天我瞭解到有這樣的狀況，最主要的是……"],["洪委員孟楷：您到昨天才知道嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我們來講兩件事，第一個就是他本身帶的攝影器具，第二個就是船本身，這個船的情況本來就是沒有裝置固定的……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，因為這個事件是一個國安事件，本席再次重申立場，本席絕對支持我們的執法人員依法行政。"],["陳院長建仁：太好了。"],["洪委員孟楷：依法行政的其中一個部分就是我們有所謂的海巡執法作業規範。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：在第九條裡面清楚明白寫著要以照相、錄音、錄影或其他蒐證方式，保全相關事證，或者是遇到反抗或攻擊的時候全程錄影照相存證，並依規定通報反映。","好，請教2月14號下午一點多發生的事情，您在什麼時候接獲到海委會跟您通盤報告？"],["陳院長建仁：有關海委會通盤的報告，我們陸陸續續都有討論啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：所以第一時間、第一開始是什麼時候跟您回報的？"],["陳院長建仁：第一個就是事情發生的第二天我就知道。"],["洪委員孟楷：第二天是2月15號，您有沒有好奇、有沒有詢問過程？因為國人都在看，照理講你有密錄器，2019年海委會主委就已經在立法院答詢，說我們的海巡弟兄在任何執勤的時候都有掛密錄器，你有沒有詢問密錄器相關或者當天發生的事實？"],["陳院長建仁：2月15號我沒有問他，因為我不太清楚相關的規定。"],["洪委員孟楷：您不太清楚相關規定，到什麼時候您才清楚？"],["陳院長建仁：大家在討論說到底當時整個在做好抵制這個船入境的情況，大家在講到蒐證的時候，我才曉得他們沒有蒐證，這個原因最主要是因為當時時間很短暫，他們沒有帶隨身相關的密錄器，而且因為時間很短，就只有不到1分鐘的反應時間，所以他們來不及錄影，這是我所得到的訊息。"],["洪委員孟楷：你所得到的訊息？"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是現在，今天早上徐巧芯委員拿到相關的資料，其實這過程裡面有三、四十分鐘，而不是如同現在海巡署記者會講的，只有5分鐘的時間。"],["陳院長建仁：這件事情檢調已經在偵察……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒關係，這個會再查證。當然，留待偵查，所以我今天也講說徐巧芯委員拿到的資料……"],["陳院長建仁：我也希望大家都要相信司法，不要以訛傳訛。"],["洪委員孟楷：徐巧芯委員拿到的是爆料者、吹哨者的資料。"],["陳院長建仁：所以不要以訛傳訛也很重要。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是我想請教院長的是，昨天我也看到了，你馬上說動用第二預備金2,650萬去做三千多具密錄器的採購。"],["陳院長建仁：確實。"],["洪委員孟楷：國人馬上就想請問海巡署一年的預算有多少錢？"],["陳院長建仁：海巡署一年的預算，說老實話，你現在這樣臨時問我……"],["洪委員孟楷：250億，扣掉人事費用130億，還有120億，120億的預算裡面，過去民進黨執政八年的時間，連給執勤人員一個密錄器都沒有辦法嗎？250億裡面只占了……你說動用第二預備金只有兩千多萬，照理講早就應該給每一個執勤人員，不是嗎？如果每個執勤人員都有密錄器的話，今天拿出密錄器的資料就不用各說各話，就不用猜測了，不是嗎？所以院長，本席很善意地提醒，在這件事情上面不要造成敵意螺旋，我們絕對支持海巡弟兄依法行政，但是該給海巡弟兄的保障一定要給予，你同意嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：對，同意，我們會給。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員孟楷的質詢，接下來請登記第4號洪委員申翰質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":277,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2024-02-23"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1130401_00011"}},"transcript":{"id":"149130","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149130","tool":"pyannote","id":"149130-pyannote"},"job_id":"1iv82eohKXT9Abd7","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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\"十號署署長當然阿是不是是來那本席再請教喔昨天有提到說我們的所謂專家學者會議阿那在媒體報導裡面有講是說傳出台中的列席代表淚灑會場院長或是部長有沒有知道這個訊息\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"十\", \"start\": 372.25, \"end\": 372.55, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"號\"}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 372.55, \"end\": 372.711, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 372.711, \"end\": 372.871, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 372.871, \"end\": 373.932, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"阿\", \"start\": 373.932, \"end\": 374.432, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 374.432, \"end\": 374.512, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 374.512, \"end\": 374.592, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 374.592, \"end\": 374.913, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 374.913, \"end\": 376.234, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 376.234, \"end\": 376.434, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 376.434, \"end\": 376.614, \"score\": 1.0}, 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\"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"猜\", \"start\": 924.503, \"end\": 924.523, \"score\": 0.005}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:11,121 --> 00:00:34,779\n主席謝謝,麻煩請陳建倫院長麻煩請陳院長備詢侯委員長院長好,國人都關心食安這是為什麼本立法院要求您來率相關部會同仁來做食安專報應該的這一次我們強調瘦肉精的食安事件從過年前到現在\n\n2\n00:00:36,233 --> 00:00:50,880\n讓事件走偏的是中央的衛福部市長王必勝在第一時間地方政府驗出問題就是希望解決問題找出問題釐清原因但為什麼會看到說中央跟地方一時間不同步\n\n3\n00:00:51,420 --> 00:01:12,093\n也因此剛剛我先順著李昆城委員剛剛的一個質詢你也講到未來的事件本席也希望是說經過這一次之後未來的事件你有提到地方政府如果說驗到太低的劑量的時候應該要再做同批次的一個檢驗對不對對好低是多低標準是什麼\n\n4\n00:01:12,802 --> 00:01:19,815\n我想這個會按照不同的說話金的因為現在的食安如果說檢驗食品發生異狀的話通報的機制違衡\n\n5\n00:01:24,122 --> 00:01:49,348\n現在的情形如果說我們檢驗出來有這個低劑量的這個情況下那他的地方政府呢當然就需要來通報但是我剛才要強調當很低劑量的時候很可能是檢驗的誤差我們現在是不是只有一個標準就是合格或不合格嗎對嘛就是檢出或不檢出現在的標準但是實驗室有一個實驗室的檢出標準那實驗室的檢出標準是0.001ppm\n\n6\n00:01:50,908 --> 00:02:07,462\n那因為他很接近了我講一下0.1ppm是很低的情況下他檢測的值都靠近那個的時候他自己就要很謹慎會不會有實驗的誤差這也是學者專家所想的現在的標準現在通報機制不能檢出但是因為實驗我講一下實驗他有一個\n\n7\n00:02:13,427 --> 00:02:20,630\n我想這一些部分中央也好說地方的實驗人員都非常清楚跟了解因為我們都相信地方政府不管是哪一個政府的實驗人員都是專業的\n\n8\n00:02:38,437 --> 00:02:52,854\n以專業考量跟專業對話但目前的通報機制就是如果說是中央指派的專案有登載系統可以回報檢驗結果但是如果是地方的專案稽查的話結果是自行保留即可而且\n\n9\n00:02:53,534 --> 00:03:20,516\n發言不合格的產品先將不合格的報告交給業者依據食品安全衛生管理法第39條來做15天的一個申請回覆如果說確認結果無疑的時候衛生機關單位就要對外公佈不合格的名單是嘛也因此本席在講這次台中市政府是不是都是依照食品相關安全食品安全衛生管理來做通報來做規劃我現在請教院長\n\n10\n00:03:22,433 --> 00:03:34,199\n我要確認一次就是說實際上他檢驗出來以後剛才您講的很對要跟業者講業者要有15天的申訴期申訴完了以後再來說但是這一塊這一塊的操作這一塊的操作台中市政府怎麼樣做他檢驗出來以後按照這個\n\n11\n00:03:45,164 --> 00:04:08,283\n這一個情形來看的話呢?本席只想確定啦。你先聽本席把問題問完你再回答。本席只想確定。既然你也認為是說這一次因為劑量有驗出本來是不得驗出的因為有驗出但是你認為你的主觀認定是相對低的也因此你覺得是說應該地方政府要多驗幾批肉\n\n12\n00:04:08,743 --> 00:04:37,874\n好那本席就說那未來是不是我們應該中央要開定一個全國的食安會議要求告訴我們地方政府後續應該怎麼做定出一個標準第一是多低多少的範圍裡面要求地方政府應該要再重新檢驗應該要做這樣的一個確定而不是今天看到台中市政府明天看到高雄市政府我就請教如果說今天另外一個縣市在驗出一樣的漏他要怎麼處理好\n\n13\n00:04:38,474 --> 00:05:06,860\n但是我剛講過的話我現在只要問你是說你要怎麼做?台中市政府沒有給他15天嘛有,台中市政府有要求台堂所以說台中市政府才會跟業者持續再溝通啊但是還沒有到這個時辰的時候他就公佈第二個就是我剛才講的你剛才講說如果所有的實驗室要怎麼樣來加強他的這個檢驗的水準\n\n14\n00:05:08,280 --> 00:05:12,462\n您搞錯本席的問題的方向本席現在要做的是除了我們這次的事件以外接下來我們怎麼樣加強中央跟地方同心一致\n\n15\n00:05:29,470 --> 00:05:39,294\n護衛國人的食品安全也因此現在應該是中央如果認為說在這一次過程裡面有什麼樣的狀況可以更精進的當然應該要訂出標準不是嗎?\n\n16\n00:05:39,294 --> 00:05:50,137\n是。什麼時候要訂出標準?委員那就是過去沒有標準什麼時候要訂出標準?這就是我剛才講SOP嘛。什麼時候要訂出標準?這個SOP我們會請專家學者來討論那我們盡快的可能在一兩個月的時間內就會訂出標準。\n\n17\n00:05:55,559 --> 00:06:11,229\n兩個月內開全國的食安檢討會議。這個不一定要開全國的檢討會議,這有專家學者會議,其實就能夠做不同的成分,不同的化學品。所以兩個月內由誰召開?當然是由食藥署。\n\n18\n00:06:12,250 --> 00:06:30,067\n十號署署長當然阿是不是是來那本席再請教喔昨天有提到說我們的所謂專家學者會議阿那在媒體報導裡面有講是說傳出台中的列席代表淚灑會場院長或是部長有沒有知道這個訊息\n\n19\n00:06:31,419 --> 00:06:58,135\n我是沒有接到這樣的訊息,不過在看到媒體報導。有沒有去了解一下為什麼會有照理講地方的食藥地方的這個衛生人員他們也很有專業在過年這段期間不眠不休怎麼會說一個專家食安會議造成他淚灑會場。所以專業跟科學的事情的話用情緒去處理是不對的。\n\n20\n00:06:59,110 --> 00:07:21,226\n你現在在講是誰用情緒去處理?所以你現在在指責臺中的...不是部長您這樣的回答本席很不精準本席沒有辦法聽得懂你的回答是什麼意思?我必把這件事情當成一件事去處理。抱歉他因為真的是感冒\n\n21\n00:07:22,495 --> 00:07:47,029\n其實在昨天的這個開會的過程當中那有沒有淚灑怎麼樣說這個都是媒體的報導那我沒有辦法去查證可是有一件事情是很重要在昨天的討論的過程當中我們的專家學者就是就實驗室的操作的過程當中是怎麼樣來操作有做很詳盡的調查也許在這樣調查的過程當中讓這個被\n\n22\n00:07:50,751 --> 00:07:53,812\n院長您提到的重點來了從過去到現在本席也好或說國人也好\n\n23\n00:08:05,876 --> 00:08:24,353\n就對於是說所謂的專家會議也有人建議因為這事關全民的不管是食品安全或是過去疫情期間國人使用疫苗等等相關安全我們都講說專家會議是不是能夠比照比如說像美國能夠用全程直播的方式讓大家也了解專家的會議專業的對話\n\n24\n00:08:26,835 --> 00:08:45,744\n或者是專家會議裡面可以有對外的一個會議記錄。但是過去是都有,但全都是去標示化,而且都是過了一個月兩個月才出來啊。我們這一次的會議不是不像你這樣講的,你誤解了。因為是還沒有出來啊。因為你還沒有刊登報告,你就下結論,這樣不好啦。二月21號的會議有公開嗎?\n\n25\n00:08:56,250 --> 00:09:17,250\n所以院長我必須說就是您剛剛講的話您剛剛講說不是像我所講的我剛剛講的每一句話都是事實再來第二個部分過去我們講是說我們的專家會議可不可以公開專家會議的結果我們等到結論出來了以後我們當然會公開啊但是過程沒有辦法公開過去當然有啊有些有公開是啊有\n\n26\n00:09:18,393 --> 00:09:39,435\n我必須再糾正您喔如果說有公開的專家會議您可以再給本席後續再給本席資料但是過去好幾次重大的包括疫苗的審定包括這一次的一個食安會議專家會議都沒有公開也因此才會造成您剛剛講的就是說您也不清楚說爆傳台中市代表淚灑是什麼原因\n\n27\n00:09:39,795 --> 00:09:59,426\n因為大家都沒有看到過程,但是現在台中市政府有媒體去問,確實有類撒這樣的一個狀況嗎?但是紀錄還沒有出來。現在再請教院長,部長不用插話。依照立法院職權新施法本席有要求您發言的時候,您再發言,這樣可以嗎?\n\n28\n00:10:01,204 --> 00:10:20,111\n來,院長,所以重點,院長我可不可以請教,什麼時候這個專家會議結論會出來?好,那個3月份的時候我們就做出來。現在是2月23號。對啊,我們3月的時候會出來,因為我們可能還要決定要不要開第二次的會議等等。所以,但是我可以跟委員講,這個\n\n29\n00:10:21,671 --> 00:10:21,851\n好,謝謝院長。\n\n30\n00:10:50,336 --> 00:10:58,191\n院長接下來我想利用一點時間因為食安跟食安一樣重要的國安議題也正在發酵。就好像問食安嗎?\n\n31\n00:10:59,208 --> 00:11:20,371\n對沒有錯但是因為這一今天國安議題也持續在發酵我想2月14號就有發生過這個陸船來到金門的這個事件而造成這個翻覆我不會問您細節您放心我現在只要請教您幾個比較關鍵性的議題也是家國人大家都關注的就是說在這一個過程裡面想請教一下\n\n32\n00:11:22,261 --> 00:11:48,922\n院長因為現在我們看到針對海巡署的相關的這一些管理條例來講他是必須執勤辦法他是必須在執勤的時候穿著制服並且以照相錄音錄影的方式來修正保全相關的事證那現在傳出說2月14號我們的執法人員並沒有密錄器然後船上也沒有攝影設備你什麼時候知道這個事情的\n\n33\n00:11:49,998 --> 00:12:01,158\n這件事情是昨天我有了解到有這樣的狀況那最主要的是你到昨天才知道嗎我們來講那個兩件事第一個就是說他本身帶的這個攝影的\n\n34\n00:12:12,788 --> 00:12:24,338\n議員長,因為這件事件是一個國安事件本席再次重申立場本席絕對支持我們的執法人員依法行政依法行政的其中一個部分就是我們有所謂的\n\n35\n00:12:25,438 --> 00:12:54,537\n海巡執法作業規範對在第九條裡面清楚明白寫著要以照相錄音錄影或修正方式保全事證或者是說遇到反抗或攻擊的時候全程錄影照相存證依規定通報反映好那請教二月十四號下午一點多發生的事情什麼時候您接獲到海委會跟您做一個通盤的報告海委會通盤的報告我們陸陸續續都有討論所以第一時間第一開始的時候什麼時候跟您回報的\n\n36\n00:12:55,287 --> 00:12:59,343\n第一個就是事情發生的第二天我就知道事情。第二天2月15號\n\n37\n00:13:00,626 --> 00:13:29,440\n那什麼時候您知道您有沒有好奇有沒有詢問是說那過程因為國人大家都在看啊照理講你有秘錄器啊2019年的時候海委會的主委就已經在立法院答詢是說我們的海巡弟兄在任何的這種執行的時候都有掛秘錄器你有沒有詢問秘錄器相關或者說當天發生的一個事實我2月15號的時候沒有問他因為我不太清楚這個相關的規定您不太清楚相關規定那到什麼時候您才清楚在\n\n38\n00:13:30,660 --> 00:13:47,438\n大家在討論說這個到底當時整個的這個在做好這個抵制這個船入境的這個情況的時候那大家在講到收證的時候我才曉得說他們沒有收證\n\n39\n00:13:48,849 --> 00:14:07,740\n這個原因最主要的是因為當時的時間很短暫那他們沒有帶隨身的這個相關的密錄器而且呢他們也沒有因為時間很短就只有不到1分鐘的反應的時間所以他們來不及錄影\n\n40\n00:14:08,300 --> 00:14:37,055\n這是我所得到的訊息你所得到的訊息但是現在我們今天早上也有徐巧興委員這邊拿到相關的資料是其實這過程裡面有3、40分鐘而不是如同現在海巡署這邊講的一個記者會說只有5分鐘的時間沒關係這個會再做查證但是院長我再請當然留待偵查所以說我今天也講說徐巧興委員他拿到的資料徐巧興委員他拿到的是爆料者吹哨者的一個資料\n\n41\n00:14:38,115 --> 00:14:39,657\n國務委員馬上就想請問海巡署一年預算有多少錢?\n\n42\n00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:59,906\n海巡署一年的預算250億扣掉人事費用130億還有120億我們120億的一個預算裡面過去民進黨執政了8年的時間想到連給一個執行人員一個密錄器都沒有辦法嗎?\n\n43\n00:15:11,856 --> 00:15:24,523\n兩百五十億裡面只佔了你說用第二預備金只有兩千多萬照理講早就應該給每一個執行人員不是嗎?如果說每一個執行人員都有密錄器的話今天拿出密錄器的資料就不用各說各話就不用猜\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11121\t34779\t主席謝謝,麻煩請陳建倫院長麻煩請陳院長備詢侯委員長院長好,國人都關心食安這是為什麼本立法院要求您來率相關部會同仁來做食安專報應該的這一次我們強調瘦肉精的食安事件從過年前到現在\n36233\t50880\t讓事件走偏的是中央的衛福部市長王必勝在第一時間地方政府驗出問題就是希望解決問題找出問題釐清原因但為什麼會看到說中央跟地方一時間不同步\n51420\t72093\t也因此剛剛我先順著李昆城委員剛剛的一個質詢你也講到未來的事件本席也希望是說經過這一次之後未來的事件你有提到地方政府如果說驗到太低的劑量的時候應該要再做同批次的一個檢驗對不對對好低是多低標準是什麼\n72802\t79815\t我想這個會按照不同的說話金的因為現在的食安如果說檢驗食品發生異狀的話通報的機制違衡\n84122\t109348\t現在的情形如果說我們檢驗出來有這個低劑量的這個情況下那他的地方政府呢當然就需要來通報但是我剛才要強調當很低劑量的時候很可能是檢驗的誤差我們現在是不是只有一個標準就是合格或不合格嗎對嘛就是檢出或不檢出現在的標準但是實驗室有一個實驗室的檢出標準那實驗室的檢出標準是0.001ppm\n110908\t127462\t那因為他很接近了我講一下0.1ppm是很低的情況下他檢測的值都靠近那個的時候他自己就要很謹慎會不會有實驗的誤差這也是學者專家所想的現在的標準現在通報機制不能檢出但是因為實驗我講一下實驗他有一個\n133427\t140630\t我想這一些部分中央也好說地方的實驗人員都非常清楚跟了解因為我們都相信地方政府不管是哪一個政府的實驗人員都是專業的\n158437\t172854\t以專業考量跟專業對話但目前的通報機制就是如果說是中央指派的專案有登載系統可以回報檢驗結果但是如果是地方的專案稽查的話結果是自行保留即可而且\n173534\t200516\t發言不合格的產品先將不合格的報告交給業者依據食品安全衛生管理法第39條來做15天的一個申請回覆如果說確認結果無疑的時候衛生機關單位就要對外公佈不合格的名單是嘛也因此本席在講這次台中市政府是不是都是依照食品相關安全食品安全衛生管理來做通報來做規劃我現在請教院長\n202433\t214199\t我要確認一次就是說實際上他檢驗出來以後剛才您講的很對要跟業者講業者要有15天的申訴期申訴完了以後再來說但是這一塊這一塊的操作這一塊的操作台中市政府怎麼樣做他檢驗出來以後按照這個\n225164\t248283\t這一個情形來看的話呢?本席只想確定啦。你先聽本席把問題問完你再回答。本席只想確定。既然你也認為是說這一次因為劑量有驗出本來是不得驗出的因為有驗出但是你認為你的主觀認定是相對低的也因此你覺得是說應該地方政府要多驗幾批肉\n248743\t277874\t好那本席就說那未來是不是我們應該中央要開定一個全國的食安會議要求告訴我們地方政府後續應該怎麼做定出一個標準第一是多低多少的範圍裡面要求地方政府應該要再重新檢驗應該要做這樣的一個確定而不是今天看到台中市政府明天看到高雄市政府我就請教如果說今天另外一個縣市在驗出一樣的漏他要怎麼處理好\n278474\t306860\t但是我剛講過的話我現在只要問你是說你要怎麼做?台中市政府沒有給他15天嘛有,台中市政府有要求台堂所以說台中市政府才會跟業者持續再溝通啊但是還沒有到這個時辰的時候他就公佈第二個就是我剛才講的你剛才講說如果所有的實驗室要怎麼樣來加強他的這個檢驗的水準\n308280\t312462\t您搞錯本席的問題的方向本席現在要做的是除了我們這次的事件以外接下來我們怎麼樣加強中央跟地方同心一致\n329470\t339294\t護衛國人的食品安全也因此現在應該是中央如果認為說在這一次過程裡面有什麼樣的狀況可以更精進的當然應該要訂出標準不是嗎?\n339294\t350137\t是。什麼時候要訂出標準?委員那就是過去沒有標準什麼時候要訂出標準?這就是我剛才講SOP嘛。什麼時候要訂出標準?這個SOP我們會請專家學者來討論那我們盡快的可能在一兩個月的時間內就會訂出標準。\n355559\t371229\t兩個月內開全國的食安檢討會議。這個不一定要開全國的檢討會議,這有專家學者會議,其實就能夠做不同的成分,不同的化學品。所以兩個月內由誰召開?當然是由食藥署。\n372250\t390067\t十號署署長當然阿是不是是來那本席再請教喔昨天有提到說我們的所謂專家學者會議阿那在媒體報導裡面有講是說傳出台中的列席代表淚灑會場院長或是部長有沒有知道這個訊息\n391419\t418135\t我是沒有接到這樣的訊息,不過在看到媒體報導。有沒有去了解一下為什麼會有照理講地方的食藥地方的這個衛生人員他們也很有專業在過年這段期間不眠不休怎麼會說一個專家食安會議造成他淚灑會場。所以專業跟科學的事情的話用情緒去處理是不對的。\n419110\t441226\t你現在在講是誰用情緒去處理?所以你現在在指責臺中的...不是部長您這樣的回答本席很不精準本席沒有辦法聽得懂你的回答是什麼意思?我必把這件事情當成一件事去處理。抱歉他因為真的是感冒\n442495\t467029\t其實在昨天的這個開會的過程當中那有沒有淚灑怎麼樣說這個都是媒體的報導那我沒有辦法去查證可是有一件事情是很重要在昨天的討論的過程當中我們的專家學者就是就實驗室的操作的過程當中是怎麼樣來操作有做很詳盡的調查也許在這樣調查的過程當中讓這個被\n470751\t473812\t院長您提到的重點來了從過去到現在本席也好或說國人也好\n485876\t504353\t就對於是說所謂的專家會議也有人建議因為這事關全民的不管是食品安全或是過去疫情期間國人使用疫苗等等相關安全我們都講說專家會議是不是能夠比照比如說像美國能夠用全程直播的方式讓大家也了解專家的會議專業的對話\n506835\t525744\t或者是專家會議裡面可以有對外的一個會議記錄。但是過去是都有,但全都是去標示化,而且都是過了一個月兩個月才出來啊。我們這一次的會議不是不像你這樣講的,你誤解了。因為是還沒有出來啊。因為你還沒有刊登報告,你就下結論,這樣不好啦。二月21號的會議有公開嗎?\n536250\t557250\t所以院長我必須說就是您剛剛講的話您剛剛講說不是像我所講的我剛剛講的每一句話都是事實再來第二個部分過去我們講是說我們的專家會議可不可以公開專家會議的結果我們等到結論出來了以後我們當然會公開啊但是過程沒有辦法公開過去當然有啊有些有公開是啊有\n558393\t579435\t我必須再糾正您喔如果說有公開的專家會議您可以再給本席後續再給本席資料但是過去好幾次重大的包括疫苗的審定包括這一次的一個食安會議專家會議都沒有公開也因此才會造成您剛剛講的就是說您也不清楚說爆傳台中市代表淚灑是什麼原因\n579795\t599426\t因為大家都沒有看到過程,但是現在台中市政府有媒體去問,確實有類撒這樣的一個狀況嗎?但是紀錄還沒有出來。現在再請教院長,部長不用插話。依照立法院職權新施法本席有要求您發言的時候,您再發言,這樣可以嗎?\n601204\t620111\t來,院長,所以重點,院長我可不可以請教,什麼時候這個專家會議結論會出來?好,那個3月份的時候我們就做出來。現在是2月23號。對啊,我們3月的時候會出來,因為我們可能還要決定要不要開第二次的會議等等。所以,但是我可以跟委員講,這個\n621671\t621851\t好,謝謝院長。\n650336\t658191\t院長接下來我想利用一點時間因為食安跟食安一樣重要的國安議題也正在發酵。就好像問食安嗎?\n659208\t680371\t對沒有錯但是因為這一今天國安議題也持續在發酵我想2月14號就有發生過這個陸船來到金門的這個事件而造成這個翻覆我不會問您細節您放心我現在只要請教您幾個比較關鍵性的議題也是家國人大家都關注的就是說在這一個過程裡面想請教一下\n682261\t708922\t院長因為現在我們看到針對海巡署的相關的這一些管理條例來講他是必須執勤辦法他是必須在執勤的時候穿著制服並且以照相錄音錄影的方式來修正保全相關的事證那現在傳出說2月14號我們的執法人員並沒有密錄器然後船上也沒有攝影設備你什麼時候知道這個事情的\n709998\t721158\t這件事情是昨天我有了解到有這樣的狀況那最主要的是你到昨天才知道嗎我們來講那個兩件事第一個就是說他本身帶的這個攝影的\n732788\t744338\t議員長,因為這件事件是一個國安事件本席再次重申立場本席絕對支持我們的執法人員依法行政依法行政的其中一個部分就是我們有所謂的\n745438\t774537\t海巡執法作業規範對在第九條裡面清楚明白寫著要以照相錄音錄影或修正方式保全事證或者是說遇到反抗或攻擊的時候全程錄影照相存證依規定通報反映好那請教二月十四號下午一點多發生的事情什麼時候您接獲到海委會跟您做一個通盤的報告海委會通盤的報告我們陸陸續續都有討論所以第一時間第一開始的時候什麼時候跟您回報的\n775287\t779343\t第一個就是事情發生的第二天我就知道事情。第二天2月15號\n780626\t809440\t那什麼時候您知道您有沒有好奇有沒有詢問是說那過程因為國人大家都在看啊照理講你有秘錄器啊2019年的時候海委會的主委就已經在立法院答詢是說我們的海巡弟兄在任何的這種執行的時候都有掛秘錄器你有沒有詢問秘錄器相關或者說當天發生的一個事實我2月15號的時候沒有問他因為我不太清楚這個相關的規定您不太清楚相關規定那到什麼時候您才清楚在\n810660\t827438\t大家在討論說這個到底當時整個的這個在做好這個抵制這個船入境的這個情況的時候那大家在講到收證的時候我才曉得說他們沒有收證\n828849\t847740\t這個原因最主要的是因為當時的時間很短暫那他們沒有帶隨身的這個相關的密錄器而且呢他們也沒有因為時間很短就只有不到1分鐘的反應的時間所以他們來不及錄影\n848300\t877055\t這是我所得到的訊息你所得到的訊息但是現在我們今天早上也有徐巧興委員這邊拿到相關的資料是其實這過程裡面有3、40分鐘而不是如同現在海巡署這邊講的一個記者會說只有5分鐘的時間沒關係這個會再做查證但是院長我再請當然留待偵查所以說我今天也講說徐巧興委員他拿到的資料徐巧興委員他拿到的是爆料者吹哨者的一個資料\n878115\t879657\t國務委員馬上就想請問海巡署一年預算有多少錢?\n893680\t899906\t海巡署一年的預算250億扣掉人事費用130億還有120億我們120億的一個預算裡面過去民進黨執政了8年的時間想到連給一個執行人員一個密錄器都沒有辦法嗎?\n911856\t924523\t兩百五十億裡面只佔了你說用第二預備金只有兩千多萬照理講早就應該給每一個執行人員不是嗎?如果說每一個執行人員都有密錄器的話今天拿出密錄器的資料就不用各說各話就不用猜\n","txt":"主席謝謝,麻煩請陳建倫院長麻煩請陳院長備詢侯委員長院長好,國人都關心食安這是為什麼本立法院要求您來率相關部會同仁來做食安專報應該的這一次我們強調瘦肉精的食安事件從過年前到現在\n讓事件走偏的是中央的衛福部市長王必勝在第一時間地方政府驗出問題就是希望解決問題找出問題釐清原因但為什麼會看到說中央跟地方一時間不同步\n也因此剛剛我先順著李昆城委員剛剛的一個質詢你也講到未來的事件本席也希望是說經過這一次之後未來的事件你有提到地方政府如果說驗到太低的劑量的時候應該要再做同批次的一個檢驗對不對對好低是多低標準是什麼\n我想這個會按照不同的說話金的因為現在的食安如果說檢驗食品發生異狀的話通報的機制違衡\n現在的情形如果說我們檢驗出來有這個低劑量的這個情況下那他的地方政府呢當然就需要來通報但是我剛才要強調當很低劑量的時候很可能是檢驗的誤差我們現在是不是只有一個標準就是合格或不合格嗎對嘛就是檢出或不檢出現在的標準但是實驗室有一個實驗室的檢出標準那實驗室的檢出標準是0.001ppm\n那因為他很接近了我講一下0.1ppm是很低的情況下他檢測的值都靠近那個的時候他自己就要很謹慎會不會有實驗的誤差這也是學者專家所想的現在的標準現在通報機制不能檢出但是因為實驗我講一下實驗他有一個\n我想這一些部分中央也好說地方的實驗人員都非常清楚跟了解因為我們都相信地方政府不管是哪一個政府的實驗人員都是專業的\n以專業考量跟專業對話但目前的通報機制就是如果說是中央指派的專案有登載系統可以回報檢驗結果但是如果是地方的專案稽查的話結果是自行保留即可而且\n發言不合格的產品先將不合格的報告交給業者依據食品安全衛生管理法第39條來做15天的一個申請回覆如果說確認結果無疑的時候衛生機關單位就要對外公佈不合格的名單是嘛也因此本席在講這次台中市政府是不是都是依照食品相關安全食品安全衛生管理來做通報來做規劃我現在請教院長\n我要確認一次就是說實際上他檢驗出來以後剛才您講的很對要跟業者講業者要有15天的申訴期申訴完了以後再來說但是這一塊這一塊的操作這一塊的操作台中市政府怎麼樣做他檢驗出來以後按照這個\n這一個情形來看的話呢?本席只想確定啦。你先聽本席把問題問完你再回答。本席只想確定。既然你也認為是說這一次因為劑量有驗出本來是不得驗出的因為有驗出但是你認為你的主觀認定是相對低的也因此你覺得是說應該地方政府要多驗幾批肉\n好那本席就說那未來是不是我們應該中央要開定一個全國的食安會議要求告訴我們地方政府後續應該怎麼做定出一個標準第一是多低多少的範圍裡面要求地方政府應該要再重新檢驗應該要做這樣的一個確定而不是今天看到台中市政府明天看到高雄市政府我就請教如果說今天另外一個縣市在驗出一樣的漏他要怎麼處理好\n但是我剛講過的話我現在只要問你是說你要怎麼做?台中市政府沒有給他15天嘛有,台中市政府有要求台堂所以說台中市政府才會跟業者持續再溝通啊但是還沒有到這個時辰的時候他就公佈第二個就是我剛才講的你剛才講說如果所有的實驗室要怎麼樣來加強他的這個檢驗的水準\n您搞錯本席的問題的方向本席現在要做的是除了我們這次的事件以外接下來我們怎麼樣加強中央跟地方同心一致\n護衛國人的食品安全也因此現在應該是中央如果認為說在這一次過程裡面有什麼樣的狀況可以更精進的當然應該要訂出標準不是嗎?\n是。什麼時候要訂出標準?委員那就是過去沒有標準什麼時候要訂出標準?這就是我剛才講SOP嘛。什麼時候要訂出標準?這個SOP我們會請專家學者來討論那我們盡快的可能在一兩個月的時間內就會訂出標準。\n兩個月內開全國的食安檢討會議。這個不一定要開全國的檢討會議,這有專家學者會議,其實就能夠做不同的成分,不同的化學品。所以兩個月內由誰召開?當然是由食藥署。\n十號署署長當然阿是不是是來那本席再請教喔昨天有提到說我們的所謂專家學者會議阿那在媒體報導裡面有講是說傳出台中的列席代表淚灑會場院長或是部長有沒有知道這個訊息\n我是沒有接到這樣的訊息,不過在看到媒體報導。有沒有去了解一下為什麼會有照理講地方的食藥地方的這個衛生人員他們也很有專業在過年這段期間不眠不休怎麼會說一個專家食安會議造成他淚灑會場。所以專業跟科學的事情的話用情緒去處理是不對的。\n你現在在講是誰用情緒去處理?所以你現在在指責臺中的...不是部長您這樣的回答本席很不精準本席沒有辦法聽得懂你的回答是什麼意思?我必把這件事情當成一件事去處理。抱歉他因為真的是感冒\n其實在昨天的這個開會的過程當中那有沒有淚灑怎麼樣說這個都是媒體的報導那我沒有辦法去查證可是有一件事情是很重要在昨天的討論的過程當中我們的專家學者就是就實驗室的操作的過程當中是怎麼樣來操作有做很詳盡的調查也許在這樣調查的過程當中讓這個被\n院長您提到的重點來了從過去到現在本席也好或說國人也好\n就對於是說所謂的專家會議也有人建議因為這事關全民的不管是食品安全或是過去疫情期間國人使用疫苗等等相關安全我們都講說專家會議是不是能夠比照比如說像美國能夠用全程直播的方式讓大家也了解專家的會議專業的對話\n或者是專家會議裡面可以有對外的一個會議記錄。但是過去是都有,但全都是去標示化,而且都是過了一個月兩個月才出來啊。我們這一次的會議不是不像你這樣講的,你誤解了。因為是還沒有出來啊。因為你還沒有刊登報告,你就下結論,這樣不好啦。二月21號的會議有公開嗎?\n所以院長我必須說就是您剛剛講的話您剛剛講說不是像我所講的我剛剛講的每一句話都是事實再來第二個部分過去我們講是說我們的專家會議可不可以公開專家會議的結果我們等到結論出來了以後我們當然會公開啊但是過程沒有辦法公開過去當然有啊有些有公開是啊有\n我必須再糾正您喔如果說有公開的專家會議您可以再給本席後續再給本席資料但是過去好幾次重大的包括疫苗的審定包括這一次的一個食安會議專家會議都沒有公開也因此才會造成您剛剛講的就是說您也不清楚說爆傳台中市代表淚灑是什麼原因\n因為大家都沒有看到過程,但是現在台中市政府有媒體去問,確實有類撒這樣的一個狀況嗎?但是紀錄還沒有出來。現在再請教院長,部長不用插話。依照立法院職權新施法本席有要求您發言的時候,您再發言,這樣可以嗎?\n來,院長,所以重點,院長我可不可以請教,什麼時候這個專家會議結論會出來?好,那個3月份的時候我們就做出來。現在是2月23號。對啊,我們3月的時候會出來,因為我們可能還要決定要不要開第二次的會議等等。所以,但是我可以跟委員講,這個\n好,謝謝院長。\n院長接下來我想利用一點時間因為食安跟食安一樣重要的國安議題也正在發酵。就好像問食安嗎?\n對沒有錯但是因為這一今天國安議題也持續在發酵我想2月14號就有發生過這個陸船來到金門的這個事件而造成這個翻覆我不會問您細節您放心我現在只要請教您幾個比較關鍵性的議題也是家國人大家都關注的就是說在這一個過程裡面想請教一下\n院長因為現在我們看到針對海巡署的相關的這一些管理條例來講他是必須執勤辦法他是必須在執勤的時候穿著制服並且以照相錄音錄影的方式來修正保全相關的事證那現在傳出說2月14號我們的執法人員並沒有密錄器然後船上也沒有攝影設備你什麼時候知道這個事情的\n這件事情是昨天我有了解到有這樣的狀況那最主要的是你到昨天才知道嗎我們來講那個兩件事第一個就是說他本身帶的這個攝影的\n議員長,因為這件事件是一個國安事件本席再次重申立場本席絕對支持我們的執法人員依法行政依法行政的其中一個部分就是我們有所謂的\n海巡執法作業規範對在第九條裡面清楚明白寫著要以照相錄音錄影或修正方式保全事證或者是說遇到反抗或攻擊的時候全程錄影照相存證依規定通報反映好那請教二月十四號下午一點多發生的事情什麼時候您接獲到海委會跟您做一個通盤的報告海委會通盤的報告我們陸陸續續都有討論所以第一時間第一開始的時候什麼時候跟您回報的\n第一個就是事情發生的第二天我就知道事情。第二天2月15號\n那什麼時候您知道您有沒有好奇有沒有詢問是說那過程因為國人大家都在看啊照理講你有秘錄器啊2019年的時候海委會的主委就已經在立法院答詢是說我們的海巡弟兄在任何的這種執行的時候都有掛秘錄器你有沒有詢問秘錄器相關或者說當天發生的一個事實我2月15號的時候沒有問他因為我不太清楚這個相關的規定您不太清楚相關規定那到什麼時候您才清楚在\n大家在討論說這個到底當時整個的這個在做好這個抵制這個船入境的這個情況的時候那大家在講到收證的時候我才曉得說他們沒有收證\n這個原因最主要的是因為當時的時間很短暫那他們沒有帶隨身的這個相關的密錄器而且呢他們也沒有因為時間很短就只有不到1分鐘的反應的時間所以他們來不及錄影\n這是我所得到的訊息你所得到的訊息但是現在我們今天早上也有徐巧興委員這邊拿到相關的資料是其實這過程裡面有3、40分鐘而不是如同現在海巡署這邊講的一個記者會說只有5分鐘的時間沒關係這個會再做查證但是院長我再請當然留待偵查所以說我今天也講說徐巧興委員他拿到的資料徐巧興委員他拿到的是爆料者吹哨者的一個資料\n國務委員馬上就想請問海巡署一年預算有多少錢?\n海巡署一年的預算250億扣掉人事費用130億還有120億我們120億的一個預算裡面過去民進黨執政了8年的時間想到連給一個執行人員一個密錄器都沒有辦法嗎?\n兩百五十億裡面只佔了你說用第二預備金只有兩千多萬照理講早就應該給每一個執行人員不是嗎?如果說每一個執行人員都有密錄器的話今天拿出密錄器的資料就不用各說各話就不用猜\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.121 --> 00:34.779\n主席謝謝,麻煩請陳建倫院長麻煩請陳院長備詢侯委員長院長好,國人都關心食安這是為什麼本立法院要求您來率相關部會同仁來做食安專報應該的這一次我們強調瘦肉精的食安事件從過年前到現在\n\n00:36.233 --> 00:50.880\n讓事件走偏的是中央的衛福部市長王必勝在第一時間地方政府驗出問題就是希望解決問題找出問題釐清原因但為什麼會看到說中央跟地方一時間不同步\n\n00:51.420 --> 01:12.093\n也因此剛剛我先順著李昆城委員剛剛的一個質詢你也講到未來的事件本席也希望是說經過這一次之後未來的事件你有提到地方政府如果說驗到太低的劑量的時候應該要再做同批次的一個檢驗對不對對好低是多低標準是什麼\n\n01:12.802 --> 01:19.815\n我想這個會按照不同的說話金的因為現在的食安如果說檢驗食品發生異狀的話通報的機制違衡\n\n01:24.122 --> 01:49.348\n現在的情形如果說我們檢驗出來有這個低劑量的這個情況下那他的地方政府呢當然就需要來通報但是我剛才要強調當很低劑量的時候很可能是檢驗的誤差我們現在是不是只有一個標準就是合格或不合格嗎對嘛就是檢出或不檢出現在的標準但是實驗室有一個實驗室的檢出標準那實驗室的檢出標準是0.001ppm\n\n01:50.908 --> 02:07.462\n那因為他很接近了我講一下0.1ppm是很低的情況下他檢測的值都靠近那個的時候他自己就要很謹慎會不會有實驗的誤差這也是學者專家所想的現在的標準現在通報機制不能檢出但是因為實驗我講一下實驗他有一個\n\n02:13.427 --> 02:20.630\n我想這一些部分中央也好說地方的實驗人員都非常清楚跟了解因為我們都相信地方政府不管是哪一個政府的實驗人員都是專業的\n\n02:38.437 --> 02:52.854\n以專業考量跟專業對話但目前的通報機制就是如果說是中央指派的專案有登載系統可以回報檢驗結果但是如果是地方的專案稽查的話結果是自行保留即可而且\n\n02:53.534 --> 03:20.516\n發言不合格的產品先將不合格的報告交給業者依據食品安全衛生管理法第39條來做15天的一個申請回覆如果說確認結果無疑的時候衛生機關單位就要對外公佈不合格的名單是嘛也因此本席在講這次台中市政府是不是都是依照食品相關安全食品安全衛生管理來做通報來做規劃我現在請教院長\n\n03:22.433 --> 03:34.199\n我要確認一次就是說實際上他檢驗出來以後剛才您講的很對要跟業者講業者要有15天的申訴期申訴完了以後再來說但是這一塊這一塊的操作這一塊的操作台中市政府怎麼樣做他檢驗出來以後按照這個\n\n03:45.164 --> 04:08.283\n這一個情形來看的話呢?本席只想確定啦。你先聽本席把問題問完你再回答。本席只想確定。既然你也認為是說這一次因為劑量有驗出本來是不得驗出的因為有驗出但是你認為你的主觀認定是相對低的也因此你覺得是說應該地方政府要多驗幾批肉\n\n04:08.743 --> 04:37.874\n好那本席就說那未來是不是我們應該中央要開定一個全國的食安會議要求告訴我們地方政府後續應該怎麼做定出一個標準第一是多低多少的範圍裡面要求地方政府應該要再重新檢驗應該要做這樣的一個確定而不是今天看到台中市政府明天看到高雄市政府我就請教如果說今天另外一個縣市在驗出一樣的漏他要怎麼處理好\n\n04:38.474 --> 05:06.860\n但是我剛講過的話我現在只要問你是說你要怎麼做?台中市政府沒有給他15天嘛有,台中市政府有要求台堂所以說台中市政府才會跟業者持續再溝通啊但是還沒有到這個時辰的時候他就公佈第二個就是我剛才講的你剛才講說如果所有的實驗室要怎麼樣來加強他的這個檢驗的水準\n\n05:08.280 --> 05:12.462\n您搞錯本席的問題的方向本席現在要做的是除了我們這次的事件以外接下來我們怎麼樣加強中央跟地方同心一致\n\n05:29.470 --> 05:39.294\n護衛國人的食品安全也因此現在應該是中央如果認為說在這一次過程裡面有什麼樣的狀況可以更精進的當然應該要訂出標準不是嗎?\n\n05:39.294 --> 05:50.137\n是。什麼時候要訂出標準?委員那就是過去沒有標準什麼時候要訂出標準?這就是我剛才講SOP嘛。什麼時候要訂出標準?這個SOP我們會請專家學者來討論那我們盡快的可能在一兩個月的時間內就會訂出標準。\n\n05:55.559 --> 06:11.229\n兩個月內開全國的食安檢討會議。這個不一定要開全國的檢討會議,這有專家學者會議,其實就能夠做不同的成分,不同的化學品。所以兩個月內由誰召開?當然是由食藥署。\n\n06:12.250 --> 06:30.067\n十號署署長當然阿是不是是來那本席再請教喔昨天有提到說我們的所謂專家學者會議阿那在媒體報導裡面有講是說傳出台中的列席代表淚灑會場院長或是部長有沒有知道這個訊息\n\n06:31.419 --> 06:58.135\n我是沒有接到這樣的訊息,不過在看到媒體報導。有沒有去了解一下為什麼會有照理講地方的食藥地方的這個衛生人員他們也很有專業在過年這段期間不眠不休怎麼會說一個專家食安會議造成他淚灑會場。所以專業跟科學的事情的話用情緒去處理是不對的。\n\n06:59.110 --> 07:21.226\n你現在在講是誰用情緒去處理?所以你現在在指責臺中的...不是部長您這樣的回答本席很不精準本席沒有辦法聽得懂你的回答是什麼意思?我必把這件事情當成一件事去處理。抱歉他因為真的是感冒\n\n07:22.495 --> 07:47.029\n其實在昨天的這個開會的過程當中那有沒有淚灑怎麼樣說這個都是媒體的報導那我沒有辦法去查證可是有一件事情是很重要在昨天的討論的過程當中我們的專家學者就是就實驗室的操作的過程當中是怎麼樣來操作有做很詳盡的調查也許在這樣調查的過程當中讓這個被\n\n07:50.751 --> 07:53.812\n院長您提到的重點來了從過去到現在本席也好或說國人也好\n\n08:05.876 --> 08:24.353\n就對於是說所謂的專家會議也有人建議因為這事關全民的不管是食品安全或是過去疫情期間國人使用疫苗等等相關安全我們都講說專家會議是不是能夠比照比如說像美國能夠用全程直播的方式讓大家也了解專家的會議專業的對話\n\n08:26.835 --> 08:45.744\n或者是專家會議裡面可以有對外的一個會議記錄。但是過去是都有,但全都是去標示化,而且都是過了一個月兩個月才出來啊。我們這一次的會議不是不像你這樣講的,你誤解了。因為是還沒有出來啊。因為你還沒有刊登報告,你就下結論,這樣不好啦。二月21號的會議有公開嗎?\n\n08:56.250 --> 09:17.250\n所以院長我必須說就是您剛剛講的話您剛剛講說不是像我所講的我剛剛講的每一句話都是事實再來第二個部分過去我們講是說我們的專家會議可不可以公開專家會議的結果我們等到結論出來了以後我們當然會公開啊但是過程沒有辦法公開過去當然有啊有些有公開是啊有\n\n09:18.393 --> 09:39.435\n我必須再糾正您喔如果說有公開的專家會議您可以再給本席後續再給本席資料但是過去好幾次重大的包括疫苗的審定包括這一次的一個食安會議專家會議都沒有公開也因此才會造成您剛剛講的就是說您也不清楚說爆傳台中市代表淚灑是什麼原因\n\n09:39.795 --> 09:59.426\n因為大家都沒有看到過程,但是現在台中市政府有媒體去問,確實有類撒這樣的一個狀況嗎?但是紀錄還沒有出來。現在再請教院長,部長不用插話。依照立法院職權新施法本席有要求您發言的時候,您再發言,這樣可以嗎?\n\n10:01.204 --> 10:20.111\n來,院長,所以重點,院長我可不可以請教,什麼時候這個專家會議結論會出來?好,那個3月份的時候我們就做出來。現在是2月23號。對啊,我們3月的時候會出來,因為我們可能還要決定要不要開第二次的會議等等。所以,但是我可以跟委員講,這個\n\n10:21.671 --> 10:21.851\n好,謝謝院長。\n\n10:50.336 --> 10:58.191\n院長接下來我想利用一點時間因為食安跟食安一樣重要的國安議題也正在發酵。就好像問食安嗎?\n\n10:59.208 --> 11:20.371\n對沒有錯但是因為這一今天國安議題也持續在發酵我想2月14號就有發生過這個陸船來到金門的這個事件而造成這個翻覆我不會問您細節您放心我現在只要請教您幾個比較關鍵性的議題也是家國人大家都關注的就是說在這一個過程裡面想請教一下\n\n11:22.261 --> 11:48.922\n院長因為現在我們看到針對海巡署的相關的這一些管理條例來講他是必須執勤辦法他是必須在執勤的時候穿著制服並且以照相錄音錄影的方式來修正保全相關的事證那現在傳出說2月14號我們的執法人員並沒有密錄器然後船上也沒有攝影設備你什麼時候知道這個事情的\n\n11:49.998 --> 12:01.158\n這件事情是昨天我有了解到有這樣的狀況那最主要的是你到昨天才知道嗎我們來講那個兩件事第一個就是說他本身帶的這個攝影的\n\n12:12.788 --> 12:24.338\n議員長,因為這件事件是一個國安事件本席再次重申立場本席絕對支持我們的執法人員依法行政依法行政的其中一個部分就是我們有所謂的\n\n12:25.438 --> 12:54.537\n海巡執法作業規範對在第九條裡面清楚明白寫著要以照相錄音錄影或修正方式保全事證或者是說遇到反抗或攻擊的時候全程錄影照相存證依規定通報反映好那請教二月十四號下午一點多發生的事情什麼時候您接獲到海委會跟您做一個通盤的報告海委會通盤的報告我們陸陸續續都有討論所以第一時間第一開始的時候什麼時候跟您回報的\n\n12:55.287 --> 12:59.343\n第一個就是事情發生的第二天我就知道事情。第二天2月15號\n\n13:00.626 --> 13:29.440\n那什麼時候您知道您有沒有好奇有沒有詢問是說那過程因為國人大家都在看啊照理講你有秘錄器啊2019年的時候海委會的主委就已經在立法院答詢是說我們的海巡弟兄在任何的這種執行的時候都有掛秘錄器你有沒有詢問秘錄器相關或者說當天發生的一個事實我2月15號的時候沒有問他因為我不太清楚這個相關的規定您不太清楚相關規定那到什麼時候您才清楚在\n\n13:30.660 --> 13:47.438\n大家在討論說這個到底當時整個的這個在做好這個抵制這個船入境的這個情況的時候那大家在講到收證的時候我才曉得說他們沒有收證\n\n13:48.849 --> 14:07.740\n這個原因最主要的是因為當時的時間很短暫那他們沒有帶隨身的這個相關的密錄器而且呢他們也沒有因為時間很短就只有不到1分鐘的反應的時間所以他們來不及錄影\n\n14:08.300 --> 14:37.055\n這是我所得到的訊息你所得到的訊息但是現在我們今天早上也有徐巧興委員這邊拿到相關的資料是其實這過程裡面有3、40分鐘而不是如同現在海巡署這邊講的一個記者會說只有5分鐘的時間沒關係這個會再做查證但是院長我再請當然留待偵查所以說我今天也講說徐巧興委員他拿到的資料徐巧興委員他拿到的是爆料者吹哨者的一個資料\n\n14:38.115 --> 14:39.657\n國務委員馬上就想請問海巡署一年預算有多少錢?\n\n14:53.680 --> 14:59.906\n海巡署一年的預算250億扣掉人事費用130億還有120億我們120億的一個預算裡面過去民進黨執政了8年的時間想到連給一個執行人員一個密錄器都沒有辦法嗎?\n\n15:11.856 --> 15:24.523\n兩百五十億裡面只佔了你說用第二預備金只有兩千多萬照理講早就應該給每一個執行人員不是嗎?如果說每一個執行人員都有密錄器的話今天拿出密錄器的資料就不用各說各話就不用猜\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.121,"end":34.779,"text":"主席謝謝,麻煩請陳建倫院長麻煩請陳院長備詢侯委員長院長好,國人都關心食安這是為什麼本立法院要求您來率相關部會同仁來做食安專報應該的這一次我們強調瘦肉精的食安事件從過年前到現在"},{"start":36.233,"end":50.88,"text":"讓事件走偏的是中央的衛福部市長王必勝在第一時間地方政府驗出問題就是希望解決問題找出問題釐清原因但為什麼會看到說中央跟地方一時間不同步"},{"start":51.42,"end":72.093,"text":"也因此剛剛我先順著李昆城委員剛剛的一個質詢你也講到未來的事件本席也希望是說經過這一次之後未來的事件你有提到地方政府如果說驗到太低的劑量的時候應該要再做同批次的一個檢驗對不對對好低是多低標準是什麼"},{"start":72.802,"end":79.815,"text":"我想這個會按照不同的說話金的因為現在的食安如果說檢驗食品發生異狀的話通報的機制違衡"},{"start":84.122,"end":109.348,"text":"現在的情形如果說我們檢驗出來有這個低劑量的這個情況下那他的地方政府呢當然就需要來通報但是我剛才要強調當很低劑量的時候很可能是檢驗的誤差我們現在是不是只有一個標準就是合格或不合格嗎對嘛就是檢出或不檢出現在的標準但是實驗室有一個實驗室的檢出標準那實驗室的檢出標準是0.001ppm"},{"start":110.908,"end":127.462,"text":"那因為他很接近了我講一下0.1ppm是很低的情況下他檢測的值都靠近那個的時候他自己就要很謹慎會不會有實驗的誤差這也是學者專家所想的現在的標準現在通報機制不能檢出但是因為實驗我講一下實驗他有一個"},{"start":133.427,"end":140.63,"text":"我想這一些部分中央也好說地方的實驗人員都非常清楚跟了解因為我們都相信地方政府不管是哪一個政府的實驗人員都是專業的"},{"start":158.437,"end":172.854,"text":"以專業考量跟專業對話但目前的通報機制就是如果說是中央指派的專案有登載系統可以回報檢驗結果但是如果是地方的專案稽查的話結果是自行保留即可而且"},{"start":173.534,"end":200.516,"text":"發言不合格的產品先將不合格的報告交給業者依據食品安全衛生管理法第39條來做15天的一個申請回覆如果說確認結果無疑的時候衛生機關單位就要對外公佈不合格的名單是嘛也因此本席在講這次台中市政府是不是都是依照食品相關安全食品安全衛生管理來做通報來做規劃我現在請教院長"},{"start":202.433,"end":214.199,"text":"我要確認一次就是說實際上他檢驗出來以後剛才您講的很對要跟業者講業者要有15天的申訴期申訴完了以後再來說但是這一塊這一塊的操作這一塊的操作台中市政府怎麼樣做他檢驗出來以後按照這個"},{"start":225.164,"end":248.283,"text":"這一個情形來看的話呢?本席只想確定啦。你先聽本席把問題問完你再回答。本席只想確定。既然你也認為是說這一次因為劑量有驗出本來是不得驗出的因為有驗出但是你認為你的主觀認定是相對低的也因此你覺得是說應該地方政府要多驗幾批肉"},{"start":248.743,"end":277.874,"text":"好那本席就說那未來是不是我們應該中央要開定一個全國的食安會議要求告訴我們地方政府後續應該怎麼做定出一個標準第一是多低多少的範圍裡面要求地方政府應該要再重新檢驗應該要做這樣的一個確定而不是今天看到台中市政府明天看到高雄市政府我就請教如果說今天另外一個縣市在驗出一樣的漏他要怎麼處理好"},{"start":278.474,"end":306.86,"text":"但是我剛講過的話我現在只要問你是說你要怎麼做?台中市政府沒有給他15天嘛有,台中市政府有要求台堂所以說台中市政府才會跟業者持續再溝通啊但是還沒有到這個時辰的時候他就公佈第二個就是我剛才講的你剛才講說如果所有的實驗室要怎麼樣來加強他的這個檢驗的水準"},{"start":308.28,"end":312.462,"text":"您搞錯本席的問題的方向本席現在要做的是除了我們這次的事件以外接下來我們怎麼樣加強中央跟地方同心一致"},{"start":329.47,"end":339.294,"text":"護衛國人的食品安全也因此現在應該是中央如果認為說在這一次過程裡面有什麼樣的狀況可以更精進的當然應該要訂出標準不是嗎?"},{"start":339.294,"end":350.137,"text":"是。什麼時候要訂出標準?委員那就是過去沒有標準什麼時候要訂出標準?這就是我剛才講SOP嘛。什麼時候要訂出標準?這個SOP我們會請專家學者來討論那我們盡快的可能在一兩個月的時間內就會訂出標準。"},{"start":355.559,"end":371.229,"text":"兩個月內開全國的食安檢討會議。這個不一定要開全國的檢討會議,這有專家學者會議,其實就能夠做不同的成分,不同的化學品。所以兩個月內由誰召開?當然是由食藥署。"},{"start":372.25,"end":390.067,"text":"十號署署長當然阿是不是是來那本席再請教喔昨天有提到說我們的所謂專家學者會議阿那在媒體報導裡面有講是說傳出台中的列席代表淚灑會場院長或是部長有沒有知道這個訊息"},{"start":391.419,"end":418.135,"text":"我是沒有接到這樣的訊息,不過在看到媒體報導。有沒有去了解一下為什麼會有照理講地方的食藥地方的這個衛生人員他們也很有專業在過年這段期間不眠不休怎麼會說一個專家食安會議造成他淚灑會場。所以專業跟科學的事情的話用情緒去處理是不對的。"},{"start":419.11,"end":441.226,"text":"你現在在講是誰用情緒去處理?所以你現在在指責臺中的...不是部長您這樣的回答本席很不精準本席沒有辦法聽得懂你的回答是什麼意思?我必把這件事情當成一件事去處理。抱歉他因為真的是感冒"},{"start":442.495,"end":467.029,"text":"其實在昨天的這個開會的過程當中那有沒有淚灑怎麼樣說這個都是媒體的報導那我沒有辦法去查證可是有一件事情是很重要在昨天的討論的過程當中我們的專家學者就是就實驗室的操作的過程當中是怎麼樣來操作有做很詳盡的調查也許在這樣調查的過程當中讓這個被"},{"start":470.751,"end":473.812,"text":"院長您提到的重點來了從過去到現在本席也好或說國人也好"},{"start":485.876,"end":504.353,"text":"就對於是說所謂的專家會議也有人建議因為這事關全民的不管是食品安全或是過去疫情期間國人使用疫苗等等相關安全我們都講說專家會議是不是能夠比照比如說像美國能夠用全程直播的方式讓大家也了解專家的會議專業的對話"},{"start":506.835,"end":525.744,"text":"或者是專家會議裡面可以有對外的一個會議記錄。但是過去是都有,但全都是去標示化,而且都是過了一個月兩個月才出來啊。我們這一次的會議不是不像你這樣講的,你誤解了。因為是還沒有出來啊。因為你還沒有刊登報告,你就下結論,這樣不好啦。二月21號的會議有公開嗎?"},{"start":536.25,"end":557.25,"text":"所以院長我必須說就是您剛剛講的話您剛剛講說不是像我所講的我剛剛講的每一句話都是事實再來第二個部分過去我們講是說我們的專家會議可不可以公開專家會議的結果我們等到結論出來了以後我們當然會公開啊但是過程沒有辦法公開過去當然有啊有些有公開是啊有"},{"start":558.393,"end":579.435,"text":"我必須再糾正您喔如果說有公開的專家會議您可以再給本席後續再給本席資料但是過去好幾次重大的包括疫苗的審定包括這一次的一個食安會議專家會議都沒有公開也因此才會造成您剛剛講的就是說您也不清楚說爆傳台中市代表淚灑是什麼原因"},{"start":579.795,"end":599.426,"text":"因為大家都沒有看到過程,但是現在台中市政府有媒體去問,確實有類撒這樣的一個狀況嗎?但是紀錄還沒有出來。現在再請教院長,部長不用插話。依照立法院職權新施法本席有要求您發言的時候,您再發言,這樣可以嗎?"},{"start":601.204,"end":620.111,"text":"來,院長,所以重點,院長我可不可以請教,什麼時候這個專家會議結論會出來?好,那個3月份的時候我們就做出來。現在是2月23號。對啊,我們3月的時候會出來,因為我們可能還要決定要不要開第二次的會議等等。所以,但是我可以跟委員講,這個"},{"start":621.671,"end":621.851,"text":"好,謝謝院長。"},{"start":650.336,"end":658.191,"text":"院長接下來我想利用一點時間因為食安跟食安一樣重要的國安議題也正在發酵。就好像問食安嗎?"},{"start":659.208,"end":680.371,"text":"對沒有錯但是因為這一今天國安議題也持續在發酵我想2月14號就有發生過這個陸船來到金門的這個事件而造成這個翻覆我不會問您細節您放心我現在只要請教您幾個比較關鍵性的議題也是家國人大家都關注的就是說在這一個過程裡面想請教一下"},{"start":682.261,"end":708.922,"text":"院長因為現在我們看到針對海巡署的相關的這一些管理條例來講他是必須執勤辦法他是必須在執勤的時候穿著制服並且以照相錄音錄影的方式來修正保全相關的事證那現在傳出說2月14號我們的執法人員並沒有密錄器然後船上也沒有攝影設備你什麼時候知道這個事情的"},{"start":709.998,"end":721.158,"text":"這件事情是昨天我有了解到有這樣的狀況那最主要的是你到昨天才知道嗎我們來講那個兩件事第一個就是說他本身帶的這個攝影的"},{"start":732.788,"end":744.338,"text":"議員長,因為這件事件是一個國安事件本席再次重申立場本席絕對支持我們的執法人員依法行政依法行政的其中一個部分就是我們有所謂的"},{"start":745.438,"end":774.537,"text":"海巡執法作業規範對在第九條裡面清楚明白寫著要以照相錄音錄影或修正方式保全事證或者是說遇到反抗或攻擊的時候全程錄影照相存證依規定通報反映好那請教二月十四號下午一點多發生的事情什麼時候您接獲到海委會跟您做一個通盤的報告海委會通盤的報告我們陸陸續續都有討論所以第一時間第一開始的時候什麼時候跟您回報的"},{"start":775.287,"end":779.343,"text":"第一個就是事情發生的第二天我就知道事情。第二天2月15號"},{"start":780.626,"end":809.44,"text":"那什麼時候您知道您有沒有好奇有沒有詢問是說那過程因為國人大家都在看啊照理講你有秘錄器啊2019年的時候海委會的主委就已經在立法院答詢是說我們的海巡弟兄在任何的這種執行的時候都有掛秘錄器你有沒有詢問秘錄器相關或者說當天發生的一個事實我2月15號的時候沒有問他因為我不太清楚這個相關的規定您不太清楚相關規定那到什麼時候您才清楚在"},{"start":810.66,"end":827.438,"text":"大家在討論說這個到底當時整個的這個在做好這個抵制這個船入境的這個情況的時候那大家在講到收證的時候我才曉得說他們沒有收證"},{"start":828.849,"end":847.74,"text":"這個原因最主要的是因為當時的時間很短暫那他們沒有帶隨身的這個相關的密錄器而且呢他們也沒有因為時間很短就只有不到1分鐘的反應的時間所以他們來不及錄影"},{"start":848.3,"end":877.055,"text":"這是我所得到的訊息你所得到的訊息但是現在我們今天早上也有徐巧興委員這邊拿到相關的資料是其實這過程裡面有3、40分鐘而不是如同現在海巡署這邊講的一個記者會說只有5分鐘的時間沒關係這個會再做查證但是院長我再請當然留待偵查所以說我今天也講說徐巧興委員他拿到的資料徐巧興委員他拿到的是爆料者吹哨者的一個資料"},{"start":878.115,"end":879.657,"text":"國務委員馬上就想請問海巡署一年預算有多少錢?"},{"start":893.68,"end":899.906,"text":"海巡署一年的預算250億扣掉人事費用130億還有120億我們120億的一個預算裡面過去民進黨執政了8年的時間想到連給一個執行人員一個密錄器都沒有辦法嗎?"},{"start":911.856,"end":924.523,"text":"兩百五十億裡面只佔了你說用第二預備金只有兩千多萬照理講早就應該給每一個執行人員不是嗎?如果說每一個執行人員都有密錄器的話今天拿出密錄器的資料就不用各說各話就不用猜"}]}}}}