{"id":149131,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149131","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61d28f3f53a2feb6721244f92e455ccfb347916f9bc661eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6bee16801113b211b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"11:30:45 - 11:46:35","影片長度":"00:15:50","會議時間":"2024-02-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-23","duration":950,"end_time":"2024-02-23T11:46:35+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-23T11:30:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":762,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時30分）謝謝院長，請陳院長。"],["主席：麻煩請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：院長，今天的食安專報社會其實等了一段時間，尤其是最近非常非常受到全國矚目的台糖西布特羅事件，從過年前到現在。今年過年我是在臺中過的，我自己就經歷了附近的街坊鄰居在問，臺中市政府驗出了豬肉裡面有西布特羅，到底哪些豬肉有西布特羅，影響的範圍有多廣，他到底該不該再去買豬肉，其實在過年期間都讓一般民眾有很多的困惑，我自己就經歷了這個事情，因為我這次過年是在臺中過的。","院長，我有幾個問題需要在今天的食安專報來討論，第一件事情，食安問題其實就是一個風險管理的問題。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["洪委員申翰：在風險管理的問題上，尤其面對的是行政端，當然大家一定會問一個最核心的命題，其實就是就行政端有沒有什麼該做而未做的事情？我覺得這一定是最核心的問題。剛剛院長在專報的時候也講到，這幾年我們開始釐清了幾個重要的觀念，尤其是食安五環，甚至大家都更知道溯源的重要性，所以我們大概做了一些整理，也就是現在的時間軸，從目前資料看來，從1月15日臺中市政府抽驗，第一次驗出在台糖的豬肉有乙型受體素，也就是西布特羅的事件，到2月2日中市府發出新聞稿宣稱驗出，後面開始陸陸續續從農業部畜產會、SGS等等一路，甚至在最近是由臺南衛生局來檢驗，但是都是未檢驗出。","我比較好奇的是，在1月15日到2月2日中間間隔的這18天，請問經濟部王部長，台糖公司是在哪一天收到臺中市政府的通知？"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告，台糖是在2月2日臺中市政府對外發出新聞稿之後，我們才知道。"],["洪委員申翰：所以意思是在2月2日發出新聞稿之前，其實臺中市政府並沒有告知台糖公司這件事情？"],["王部長美花：完全沒有。"],["洪委員申翰：所以台糖公司是看了新聞稿才發現的？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["洪委員申翰：這完全不合規定啊！照理來說，它其實要先通知廠商，給廠商15天的時間，15天到了以後才會公告或公布這個不合規定的廠商，按照我們的法規程序是這樣，對不對？可是按照這樣看起來臺中市政府並沒有合乎規定！說實話我一開始看到新聞的時候，我就想臺中市政府是不是真的很心急，很想要一驗出趕快來告知社會、提醒社會？結果後來看到的資料不是這樣，這中間其實臺中市政府默默地自己搞了18天的時間。我想請問部長或者是院長，如果按照一個食安管理專業的話，這18天其實臺中市政府應該要完成哪些事情，或者是在它公布前應該要完成哪些事情，就食安專業來說？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，其實一開始驗到的時候，應該是在15號採樣之後的幾天，它一開始驗到的時候，應該就要去找同批的來double check，臺中的實驗室卻對於同一個檢體再多次的double check……"],["洪委員申翰：22次，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["洪委員申翰：我們現在其實陸陸續續把這個事情給釐清了，我說實話，我剛才聽到前面的洪孟楷委員一直在說中央政府要訂SOP，但現在看到的問題反而是臺中市政府連既有的規定都沒有遵守啊……"],["陳院長建仁：也沒有做，對！其實就是……"],["洪委員申翰：你說它很急著公布，它也沒有急啊！它其實搞了18天啊！這18天明明就有很多可以做的事情，包括剛剛說到……"],["陳院長建仁：給台糖……"],["洪委員申翰：如果你馬上去市場上面找出同一批豬肉做相關的檢驗，或者是你跟中央通知了以後，找中央一起來釐清有沒有跨縣市的因素，我覺得這些都很好，至少在你發新聞稿公布的時候，社會大眾、臺中市民會知道：喔！看起來是有驗出，可是大致知道這個事件是一個什麼樣的事件，影響範圍多廣，我到底要不要恐懼、恐慌這件事情，至少大眾就不會遇到過年期間我街坊鄰居的這種擔憂嘛，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：完全對。"],["洪委員申翰：可是現在看起來這是臺中市政府該做而未做的事情，今天大家是在討論這個問題。"],["陳院長建仁：確實。"],["洪委員申翰：所以我要說，今天有很多的民意代表並不是跟臺中市政府說不該公布，我們不是說不該公布，當然驗到了，秉持著透明的原則，該公布，就公布，這沒有問題。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["洪委員申翰：但現在的問題是，好像在公布前明明有很多該做的事情，你沒做到，反而才造成這個社會不必要的恐慌嘛。院長，是不是這樣子？"],["陳院長建仁：最重要的一件事情就是剛才你提到的，它應該要有15天的時間讓台糖申請複驗才能夠公布，完全沒有做到，這18天的時間它沒有去通知台糖，給台糖有一個申請複驗的機會，這就是沒有按照SOP。"],["洪委員申翰：如果我是臺中市政府的話，在1月15號驗出，一、兩天內我就通知台糖，我給15天，我其實可能還是可以在2月2號公布，可是我可以在2月2號前就把該做的事情給做完，還可以同時把同批的豬肉都檢驗完成，讓大家知道不用那麼擔心，也許真的就只有這一塊天選之肉遇到了問題，社會不會有這麼多恐慌，所以我們現在說的都不是臺中市政府不該公布。可是我覺得很遺憾，不管是在野黨把它扭曲成現在執政黨是說好像臺中市政府不該公布，並不是！我們是說你公布前該做的事情沒有做，我想這是最重要的事情。","院長，我下面接下來要請問，因為我想我們其實都學過科學，我們都進過實驗室工作，這件事情發生以後，有很多過去跟我們一起有實驗室工作經驗的人，直接就說這是實驗室事件；當然我知道現在就直接的調查來說，不容易直接證明這件事情，因為當下就像我們說的我們沒有攝影，所以到底是不是，或者到底為什麼這塊豬肉會出現乙型受體素──西布特羅？當然現在我知道大家還在調查之中。","我們把幾個可能的因素列出來，我想一個一個請教院長跟部長，現在為什麼只有臺中的那一盒豬肉驗出？第一個我想問，養殖場是不是含有西布特羅成分的藥品？目前。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我先跟委員說明，就是豬的……"],["洪委員申翰：你們查的狀況是什麼樣子？"],["陳代理部長駿季：豬進到屠宰場是統進統出……"],["洪委員申翰：對。"],["陳代理部長駿季：所以在第一時間我們移動管制以後，去針對那個豬場去做所有的清查，是沒有的……"],["洪委員申翰：對，好。我們剛剛……"],["陳代理部長駿季：然後我們也清查了飼料，飼料也沒有啊。"],["洪委員申翰：所以這個養殖場是沒有的，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是！"],["洪委員申翰：好，那飼料的部分有沒有？"],["陳代理部長駿季：同樣的飼料我們也是同步在檢查，包括豬隻檢查、飼料也檢查，如果這兩個沒有的話，相對的在這個豬場使用西布特羅應該是不會有的。"],["洪委員申翰：好，所以養殖場沒有、豬場沒有，飼料上面也沒有。那我要問現在檢查的同一批豬肉，目前查了多少？同一批豬肉有沒有驗出來？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我所瞭解目前的同一批豬肉，從2月2號公布以後我們開始去查，到目前為止，同一批、同品項的豬肉都沒有。"],["洪委員申翰：好，同一批同品項豬肉也沒有。有沒有進口的豬肉混充到？"],["陳代理部長駿季：有關於豬肉屠宰，特別台糖是一個履歷驗證人，它是委託信功去屠宰，屠宰場本身有HACCP的認證，我們也調查當天的整個屠宰過程中，只有台糖的那一批豬肉進到屠宰場，並沒有其他的豬肉進到這個屠宰場裡面，所以不會有其他的豬肉混充。"],["洪委員申翰：所以院長，我們秉持著科學的精神，當然我知道我們現在沒辦法直接證明實驗室裡面發生什麼問題，因為剛才說我們沒有攝影，但我能想到的方法就是刪去法。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["洪委員申翰：我能想到的就是刪去法。"],["陳院長建仁：這很科學，很有證據性。"],["洪委員申翰：我們只能用一個科學的邏輯來處理這個問題，所以不是養殖場，看起來飼料裡面沒有、同一批也沒有，也不是進口混充，甚至剛才說進到這個屠宰場只有這一批，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["洪委員申翰：在這個狀況裡面坦白說，真的讓大家很難不懷疑是實驗室，當然我要說我們目前沒有直接的證據說一定是實驗室事件，我們也從新聞看到臺中市的這位人員在專家會議裡面有些情緒，也許他也覺得委屈，但不管怎樣，從刪去法來看的話，大家現在很難不懷疑是實驗室事件，我覺得這邊有一些大家必須互相體諒的事情，至少這在邏輯上面是很清楚的，我們用科學的邏輯來看待這個風險管理的事情。","接下來我要再問一個問題，王部長。部長，台糖公司有一份公文是發給臺中市政府，要求市政府應該要加驗同批的豬肉，台糖有發這個公文，對不對？"],["王部長美花：對、是。"],["洪委員申翰：臺中市政府怎麼回應？"],["王部長美花：臺中市其實沒有回我們，我們是看到它在媒體講它沒有這樣的機制。"],["洪委員申翰：我看到2月17日有一份公文上面寫歉難受理。"],["王部長美花：後來它回我們了。"],["洪委員申翰：它說歉難受理？"],["王部長美花：對。"],["洪委員申翰：它講歉難受理的理由是什麼？"],["王部長美花：它的意思是它都是主動抽驗，如果每個人都送給它，要求它驗的話，它說沒有這樣的機制。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你覺得這個拒絕的理由合理嗎？"],["王部長美花：但是因為這件事情對台糖影響太大、對臺灣的豬肉影響太大，所以當時我們才會希望地方政府可不可以就同批肉做前後檢驗，其實我們是想要確認這樣的事情。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，不只你希望知道，我跟你說就連我自己也希望知道。我說我過年在臺中，我有很多親戚朋友都在臺中，有很多的臺中市民都想知道，如果看到一塊豬肉有西布特羅，到底影響的範圍有多廣？同批豬肉是不是都有？我想這是很多臺中市民都想知道的事情，如果不是台糖發文，我覺得很多臺中市民都想發文要求是不是應該驗同批豬肉啊！所以我想問部長，你覺得剛才它拒絕的理由合不合理？"],["王部長美花：我想這是臺中市的職權，對於台糖我們中央政府後來也請其他地方去抽，台糖把所有找得到的同批肉都找到以後也讓大家來驗，然後也找第三方來驗。"],["洪委員申翰：你們後來是給臺南來驗，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["洪委員申翰：臺南就願意驗了，對不對？"],["王部長美花：對。"],["洪委員申翰：我聽起來臺南比臺中市政府更有科學精神啊！我看起來臺南市政府比臺中市政府更想瞭解真相啊！我其實真的不懂一個想瞭解食安真相的地方政府為什麼會拒絕，我真的不懂。你有這麼多的市民想知道真相到底是什麼，你到底有什麼理由拒絕？你有什麼理由不想再驗了？是臺中市實驗室的能量不足嗎？部長。"],["王部長美花：這個我沒有辦法置評，因為豬肉對國人是一個非常重要的產品，所以我們很想、很想快一點讓大家有信心。"],["洪委員申翰：院長，我從一開始看到這個新聞的時候，我覺得盧市長看起來好像是一個食安的守護者，很勇於揭露、公布驗到的事情，可是大家愈瞭解以後愈發現事實不是這樣啊！你在公布前本來就有很多該做的事情沒有做，造成一定程度的恐慌，後面當有更多人想要請你釐清的時候、想要請你加驗的時候，結果你又拒絕，我覺得這態度很奇怪啊！這個態度讓我不覺得臺中市是一個食安守護者，我覺得它是一個食安守護者的地方政府的話，有很多該做的事情它沒做，這是大家現在最困惑的地方。","最後，部長，現在當然我們這幾天有跟台糖公司索資，看到這一次同批商品下架總共是17公噸，台糖公司估計損失直接跟間接的總共大概五千多萬元，動員人力大概是七百多人，而且重點是這個動員的人力恐怕很多都是在春節年假期間，是嗎？對不對？"],["王部長美花：沒有錯。"],["洪委員申翰：所以我們也看到有很多台糖的業務跟相關沒有辦法休息的人員出來在媒體上面講，他們也很想哭嘛！可是最後我想要反映一件事情，其實這件事情我們在立法院談了快一個月的時間、談了幾個禮拜的時間，也許三個禮拜的時間，有很多的市民大眾朋友請我務必一定要跟經濟部、台糖跟行政院反映，這一次的事件看起來，現在釐清至今，有很多包括豬農，包括很多廠商，名譽是有受損，我們剛才看到間接、直接的損失，他們都問我一個事情是，我們不能夠善罷干休，不能夠這樣就算了，院長，這個我們應該會追究下去，會繼續釐清下去吧？院長。"],["陳院長建仁：應該要。"],["王部長美花：對台糖的信譽當然是非常重要。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["洪委員申翰：要麻煩院長，這是很多一般民眾的心聲，希望不要讓大家覺得我們就這樣草草地、隨便地，好像事情過了就算了，謝謝院長，謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員申翰的質詢。","接下來我們請登記第5位廖委員偉翔質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":277,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2024-02-23"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1130401_00011"}},"transcript":{"id":"149131","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149131","tool":"pyannote","id":"149131-pyannote"},"job_id":"znIsjKKN5GmGkkAc","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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{\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 950.862, \"end\": 950.882, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"集\", \"start\": 950.882, \"end\": 950.944, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 950.944, \"end\": 950.964, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,467 --> 00:00:36,265\n謝謝院長那請這個陳院長麻煩請陳院長備詢王院長好院長這個今天我們的食安專報我想社會其實等了一段時間那尤其是最近這個非常非常受到全國注目的這個台堂的\n\n2\n00:00:36,843 --> 00:00:42,308\n我自己就很經歷了這個附近的街訪鄰居就在問說哇臺東市政府驗出了這個豬肉裡面有西部特羅那到底這個哪些豬肉有西部特羅那\n\n3\n00:01:04,073 --> 00:01:28,602\n到底影響的範圍有多廣那他到底該不該再去買豬肉其實這個在過年期間都讓很多我們一般的民眾有很多的困惑我自己就經歷這個事因為我這次過年其實在台中過的所以院長我其實有幾個問題我們今天在食安專報的時候我們其實需要來討論第一件事情當然食安的問題其實就是一個風險管理的問題\n\n4\n00:01:30,305 --> 00:01:30,425\n那下一張齁\n\n5\n00:02:00,305 --> 00:02:20,274\n所以這個大概是我們做了一些整理也就是現在的時間軸那從目前資料看出來從2月15號台中市政府抽驗第一次驗出在台湯的豬肉有這個以行獸體數希伯特羅的這個事件那到2月2號中市府發出新聞稿宣稱驗出\n\n6\n00:02:21,514 --> 00:02:50,404\n那後面開始陸陸續續從農業部、續產會、SGS等等的一路那甚至在最近是由台南衛生局來檢驗但是都是未檢驗出但我其實比較好奇的事情就會是在1月15號到2月2號這中間的間隔這18天這18天我想先我也請那個王部長可不可以進一步王部長我可不可以請問一下\n\n7\n00:02:52,295 --> 00:02:56,277\n就臺堂公司是在哪一天收到臺中市政府的通知?跟委員報告好,臺中市政府臺堂是在這個2月2號他對外新聞稿之後我們其實才知道。所以意思是說在2月2號新聞稿之前\n\n8\n00:03:14,736 --> 00:03:43,954\n其實臺東市政府並沒有告知台南公司這件事情。完全沒有。所以你們是看了新臺東公司是看了新聞稿才發現的。是。那這完全不合規定啊。對。照理來說剛才說他其實要先通知廠商給廠商15天的時間。15天到了以後才有公告或公佈這個不合規定的廠商。按照我們的法規程序是這樣啊對不對。可是這樣看起來臺東市政府並沒有合乎規定啊。\n\n9\n00:03:45,609 --> 00:04:02,706\n我說實話我一開始看到新聞的時候我想說台中市政府是不是真的很心急很想要一言出趕快來告知社會提醒社會結果後來看到的資料不是這樣這中間其實台中市政府默默的自己搞了18天的時間\n\n10\n00:04:05,085 --> 00:04:19,794\n這個部長或者是院長我想請問如果按照一個食安管理的專業的話這18天其實台中市政府應該要完成哪些事情或者是在他這個公佈前應該要完成哪些事情就食安專業來說\n\n11\n00:04:22,070 --> 00:04:48,410\n跟委員報告,他其實一開始驗到的時候應該是在15號採樣之後的幾天那時候他一開始驗到的時候應該就是要去找同批的來doublecheck但是臺中的實驗室這邊的話他是卻對同一個檢體在多次的doublecheck22次對不對對\n\n12\n00:04:50,491 --> 00:05:11,902\n我們現在其實陸陸續續把這個事情給釐清了。我說實話我剛才聽到前面的這個洪申翰委員剛才一直在說這個中央政府要訂SOP,但現在看到的問題反而是台中政府連既有的規定都沒有遵守啊。你說他很急的公佈,他有沒有急啊?他其實搞了18天啊。\n\n13\n00:05:14,073 --> 00:05:42,150\n這18天明明就有很多可以做的事情包括剛剛說到如果你就很馬上的去市場上面找出同一批主流來做相關的檢驗或者是你跟中央通知了以後找中央一起來釐清有沒有跨縣市的因素我覺得這些都很好至少在你發新聞稿公布的時候社會大眾台中市民會知道說看起來是有驗出可是大致這個事件是一個什麼樣的事件影響範圍多廣\n\n14\n00:05:43,251 --> 00:06:04,830\n我到底要不要恐懼恐慌這件事情至少大眾就不會遇到我在過年時間我們接訪鄰居的這種擔憂嘛對不對可是現在看起來這是台中市政府該做而未做的事情今天我們大家是在討論這個問題所以我要說今天我們從不管是這個有很多的民意代表我們並不是跟台中市政府說你不該\n\n15\n00:06:06,516 --> 00:06:27,519\n你不該公佈。我們不是說你不該公佈。當然驗到了秉持著透明的原則該公佈就公佈這沒有問題。但現在的問題是好像你在公佈前有明明很多該做的事情你沒做到反而才造成這個社會不必要的恐慌嗎?院長是不是這樣子?最重要的一件事情就是剛才你提到的\n\n16\n00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:42,868\n他應該要有15天的時間讓臺堂申請復驗才能夠公佈完全沒有做到那這18天的時間他沒有去通知臺堂給臺堂來有一個申請復驗的機會這就是沒有按照SOP啦\n\n17\n00:06:43,248 --> 00:07:08,540\n其實如果是台湾市政府的話我如果在1月15日宴出我如果一兩天內我就通知台湾我給15天我其實可能還是可以在2月2日的時候公布可是我可以在2月2日前就把該做的事情給做完我還可以同時把同批的豬肉都檢驗完成讓大家知道不用那麼擔心也許真的就只有這一塊天選之肉是遇到了問題其實社會不會這麼多恐慌的\n\n18\n00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:35,879\n所以我們現在說的都不是台中市政府不該公布可是我覺得很遺憾有一度現在這個不管是在台黨把他扭曲成現在執政黨是說好像台中市政府不該公布並不是我們是說你該公布前該做的事情沒有做我想這是最重要的事情院長我下面接下來要請問因為我想我們其實都學過科學我們都進過實驗室的工作裡面其實這件事情發生以後我有很多過去跟我們一起在有實驗室工作經驗的人他直接就說\n\n19\n00:07:37,008 --> 00:07:37,148\n下一張齁\n\n20\n00:08:00,831 --> 00:08:08,192\n再往下其實我們把幾個可能的因素其實列出來我一個一個想請教院長跟部長\n\n21\n00:08:09,824 --> 00:08:38,546\n現在為什麼只有臺中市臺中的那一盒豬肉驗出第一個我想問養殖場是不是有含有西伏特羅成分的藥品目前我先跟委員說明就是豬的那個進到屠宰場是統進統出所以我們第一時間我們就移動管制以後去針對那個豬場去做所有的清查是沒有的然後我們也清查了飼料飼料沒有所以這個養殖場是沒有的對不對那飼料的部分有沒有\n\n22\n00:08:39,066 --> 00:08:58,187\n對那同樣的飼料我們也是同步在檢查包括豬隻檢查飼料檢查如果這兩個沒有的話那相對的他在這個豬場使用的西部特羅應該是不會有的好所以養殖場沒有豬場沒有飼料上面也沒有那我要問現在檢查的同一批豬肉目前查了多少同一批豬肉有沒有驗出來\n\n23\n00:08:59,569 --> 00:09:13,748\n我所了解現在目前的同一批豬肉從2月2號公佈以後我們開始去查到目前為止同一批同品項的豬肉都沒有同一批同品項豬肉也沒有那有沒有進口的豬肉混沖到\n\n24\n00:09:14,489 --> 00:09:39,675\n有關於整個的一個豬肉的屠宰特別是臺堂是一個履歷驗證人他是委託信工去做屠宰那屠宰場本身他有HACCP的一個認證那我們也調查了整個當天的屠宰的過程中只有臺堂的那一批豬肉進到屠宰場並沒有其他的豬肉進到這個屠宰場裡面去所以不會有其他的豬肉去做粉蔥所以院長\n\n25\n00:09:55,700 --> 00:10:10,367\n我能夠想到三句嗎?我們只能用一個科學的邏輯來處理這個問題。所以不是養殖場,看起來飼料裡面沒有,同一批也沒有,也不是進口混充。甚至剛才說進到這個屠宰場只有這一批對不對?\n\n26\n00:10:11,167 --> 00:10:28,968\n那在這個狀況裡面坦白說真的讓大家很難不懷疑是實驗室但我要說我們目前沒有直接的證據說一定是實驗室事件我們也看到新聞看到臺中市的這位人員在專家會議裡面看起來是有些情緒也許他也覺得委屈但不管怎樣\n\n27\n00:10:31,050 --> 00:10:56,765\n從刪去法來看的話大家現在很難不懷疑是實驗室事件我覺得這邊有一些大家必須互相體諒的事情至少這邏輯上面是很清楚的我們用科學的邏輯來看待這個風險管理的事情那接下來我要再問了一個問題包括這個王部長部長再往下部長這個台堂公司有一份公文\n\n28\n00:10:57,998 --> 00:11:27,370\n那發文給台中市政府要求市政府應該要加驗同批的豬肉這個台黨有發這個公文嘛對不對對是那台中市政府怎麼回應台中市政府其實沒有回我們那我們是看到他在媒體講說他沒有沒有這樣的一個機制我看到2月17他有一份公文他上面寫說欠男受理後來他回我們了是他說欠男受理那他講欠男受理的理由是什麼\n\n29\n00:11:28,424 --> 00:11:54,337\n他的意思是說我都是我主動來抽驗那如果每個人都送給我要求我驗的話他說沒有這樣的一個機制部長你覺得這個拒絕的理由合理嗎但是因為這件事情對台糖影響太大對台灣的豬肉影響太大所以當時我們才會希望地方政府可不可以就同批肉的來前後檢驗其實我們是想要確認這樣的事情\n\n30\n00:11:54,497 --> 00:12:01,307\n市長不只你希望知道我跟你說就連我自己就是說我說我過年在台中我們有很多親戚朋友都在台中\n\n31\n00:12:02,150 --> 00:12:26,164\n有很多的台中市民都想知道到底如果看到一塊豬肉有西部特羅到底影響的範圍有多廣同批豬肉是不是都有我想這連很多台中市民都想知道的事情如果不是台南發文我覺得很多台中市民都想發文要求你是不是應該驗同批豬肉啊所以我想問部長你覺得剛才說他說他現在拒絕的理由你覺得合不合理\n\n32\n00:12:28,761 --> 00:12:52,269\n我想這是台中市的職權,所以這個台堂我們後來也中央政府請其他的地方去抽,那我們台堂也把所有同批肉找的到都找到以後,也讓大家來驗,然後也找第三方來驗。你們後來現在是給台南來驗嘛對不對?是。那台南就願意驗了嘛對不對?我聽看起來台南比台中市政府更有科學精神啊。\n\n33\n00:12:53,169 --> 00:13:14,657\n我看起來台南市政府比台中市政府更想了解真相啊我其實真的不懂一個想了解食安真相的地方政府為什麼會拒絕我真的不懂你有這麼多的市民想知道到底真相是什麼你到底有什麼理由拒絕你有什麼理由不想再驗了是台中市的實驗室能量不足嗎部長\n\n34\n00:13:16,829 --> 00:13:40,918\n這個我沒有辦法置評,但是我覺得因為豬肉對國人是一個非常重要的一個產品,所以我們覺得很想很想快一點讓大家有信心。我從一開始看到這新聞的時候,我覺得盧市長看起來好像是一個食安的守護者,很勇於的去揭露公佈他驗到的事情,可是大家越了解以後越發現事實不是這樣啊。\n\n35\n00:13:42,378 --> 00:14:11,053\n你在公布前本來就有很多該做的事情沒有做造成了一定程度的恐慌但後面當今天有更多人想要請你離親的時候想要請你加驗的時候結果你又拒絕我覺得這態度很奇怪啊這個態度讓我不覺得台中市是一個食安守護者的態度啊我覺得是一個食安守護者的地方政府的話我該做我有很多該做的事情他沒做啊我覺得這是大家現在最困惑的地方最後部長再往下齁\n\n36\n00:14:13,525 --> 00:14:33,457\n現在我們當然這幾天有跟台南公司所知那看到這一次同批商品下架總共是1.7公噸台南公司估計損失直接跟間接的總共大概5000多萬元動員人力大概是700多萬而且重點是這個動員的人力\n\n37\n00:14:33,917 --> 00:15:02,191\n恐怕很多都是在春節的年假期間是嗎對不對沒有錯所以我們也看到有很多台堂的業務跟相關沒有辦法休息的人員出來在媒體上面有講他們也很想哭嘛這樣子那可是我最後我想要反映一件事情其實這件事情我們在立法院談了快一個月的時間談了幾個禮拜的時間也許三個禮拜的時間其實我們有很多的市民大眾朋友他請我務必一定要跟\n\n38\n00:15:03,756 --> 00:15:22,389\n經濟部跟台堂跟行政院反映這一次的事件看起來現在釐清至今有很多這個包括豬農包括很多的廠商民運是有受損我們剛剛看到間接直接的損失他們都問我一個事情是我們\n\n39\n00:15:50,862 --> 00:15:50,964\n本集完\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8467\t36265\t謝謝院長那請這個陳院長麻煩請陳院長備詢王院長好院長這個今天我們的食安專報我想社會其實等了一段時間那尤其是最近這個非常非常受到全國注目的這個台堂的\n36843\t42308\t我自己就很經歷了這個附近的街訪鄰居就在問說哇臺東市政府驗出了這個豬肉裡面有西部特羅那到底這個哪些豬肉有西部特羅那\n64073\t88602\t到底影響的範圍有多廣那他到底該不該再去買豬肉其實這個在過年期間都讓很多我們一般的民眾有很多的困惑我自己就經歷這個事因為我這次過年其實在台中過的所以院長我其實有幾個問題我們今天在食安專報的時候我們其實需要來討論第一件事情當然食安的問題其實就是一個風險管理的問題\n90305\t90425\t那下一張齁\n120305\t140274\t所以這個大概是我們做了一些整理也就是現在的時間軸那從目前資料看出來從2月15號台中市政府抽驗第一次驗出在台湯的豬肉有這個以行獸體數希伯特羅的這個事件那到2月2號中市府發出新聞稿宣稱驗出\n141514\t170404\t那後面開始陸陸續續從農業部、續產會、SGS等等的一路那甚至在最近是由台南衛生局來檢驗但是都是未檢驗出但我其實比較好奇的事情就會是在1月15號到2月2號這中間的間隔這18天這18天我想先我也請那個王部長可不可以進一步王部長我可不可以請問一下\n172295\t176277\t就臺堂公司是在哪一天收到臺中市政府的通知?跟委員報告好,臺中市政府臺堂是在這個2月2號他對外新聞稿之後我們其實才知道。所以意思是說在2月2號新聞稿之前\n194736\t223954\t其實臺東市政府並沒有告知台南公司這件事情。完全沒有。所以你們是看了新臺東公司是看了新聞稿才發現的。是。那這完全不合規定啊。對。照理來說剛才說他其實要先通知廠商給廠商15天的時間。15天到了以後才有公告或公佈這個不合規定的廠商。按照我們的法規程序是這樣啊對不對。可是這樣看起來臺東市政府並沒有合乎規定啊。\n225609\t242706\t我說實話我一開始看到新聞的時候我想說台中市政府是不是真的很心急很想要一言出趕快來告知社會提醒社會結果後來看到的資料不是這樣這中間其實台中市政府默默的自己搞了18天的時間\n245085\t259794\t這個部長或者是院長我想請問如果按照一個食安管理的專業的話這18天其實台中市政府應該要完成哪些事情或者是在他這個公佈前應該要完成哪些事情就食安專業來說\n262070\t288410\t跟委員報告,他其實一開始驗到的時候應該是在15號採樣之後的幾天那時候他一開始驗到的時候應該就是要去找同批的來double check但是臺中的實驗室這邊的話他是卻對同一個檢體在多次的double check22次對不對對\n290491\t311902\t我們現在其實陸陸續續把這個事情給釐清了。我說實話我剛才聽到前面的這個洪申翰委員剛才一直在說這個中央政府要訂SOP,但現在看到的問題反而是台中政府連既有的規定都沒有遵守啊。你說他很急的公佈,他有沒有急啊?他其實搞了18天啊。\n314073\t342150\t這18天明明就有很多可以做的事情包括剛剛說到如果你就很馬上的去市場上面找出同一批主流來做相關的檢驗或者是你跟中央通知了以後找中央一起來釐清有沒有跨縣市的因素我覺得這些都很好至少在你發新聞稿公布的時候社會大眾台中市民會知道說看起來是有驗出可是大致這個事件是一個什麼樣的事件影響範圍多廣\n343251\t364830\t我到底要不要恐懼恐慌這件事情至少大眾就不會遇到我在過年時間我們接訪鄰居的這種擔憂嘛對不對可是現在看起來這是台中市政府該做而未做的事情今天我們大家是在討論這個問題所以我要說今天我們從不管是這個有很多的民意代表我們並不是跟台中市政府說你不該\n366516\t387519\t你不該公佈。我們不是說你不該公佈。當然驗到了秉持著透明的原則該公佈就公佈這沒有問題。但現在的問題是好像你在公佈前有明明很多該做的事情你沒做到反而才造成這個社會不必要的恐慌嗎?院長是不是這樣子?最重要的一件事情就是剛才你提到的\n387839\t402868\t他應該要有15天的時間讓臺堂申請復驗才能夠公佈完全沒有做到那這18天的時間他沒有去通知臺堂給臺堂來有一個申請復驗的機會這就是沒有按照SOP啦\n403248\t428540\t其實如果是台湾市政府的話我如果在1月15日宴出我如果一兩天內我就通知台湾我給15天我其實可能還是可以在2月2日的時候公布可是我可以在2月2日前就把該做的事情給做完我還可以同時把同批的豬肉都檢驗完成讓大家知道不用那麼擔心也許真的就只有這一塊天選之肉是遇到了問題其實社會不會這麼多恐慌的\n428880\t455879\t所以我們現在說的都不是台中市政府不該公布可是我覺得很遺憾有一度現在這個不管是在台黨把他扭曲成現在執政黨是說好像台中市政府不該公布並不是我們是說你該公布前該做的事情沒有做我想這是最重要的事情院長我下面接下來要請問因為我想我們其實都學過科學我們都進過實驗室的工作裡面其實這件事情發生以後我有很多過去跟我們一起在有實驗室工作經驗的人他直接就說\n457008\t457148\t下一張齁\n480831\t488192\t再往下其實我們把幾個可能的因素其實列出來我一個一個想請教院長跟部長\n489824\t518546\t現在為什麼只有臺中市臺中的那一盒豬肉驗出第一個我想問養殖場是不是有含有西伏特羅成分的藥品目前我先跟委員說明就是豬的那個進到屠宰場是統進統出所以我們第一時間我們就移動管制以後去針對那個豬場去做所有的清查是沒有的然後我們也清查了飼料飼料沒有所以這個養殖場是沒有的對不對那飼料的部分有沒有\n519066\t538187\t對那同樣的飼料我們也是同步在檢查包括豬隻檢查飼料檢查如果這兩個沒有的話那相對的他在這個豬場使用的西部特羅應該是不會有的好所以養殖場沒有豬場沒有飼料上面也沒有那我要問現在檢查的同一批豬肉目前查了多少同一批豬肉有沒有驗出來\n539569\t553748\t我所了解現在目前的同一批豬肉從2月2號公佈以後我們開始去查到目前為止同一批同品項的豬肉都沒有同一批同品項豬肉也沒有那有沒有進口的豬肉混沖到\n554489\t579675\t有關於整個的一個豬肉的屠宰特別是臺堂是一個履歷驗證人他是委託信工去做屠宰那屠宰場本身他有HACCP的一個認證那我們也調查了整個當天的屠宰的過程中只有臺堂的那一批豬肉進到屠宰場並沒有其他的豬肉進到這個屠宰場裡面去所以不會有其他的豬肉去做粉蔥所以院長\n580879\t595486\t對﹖\n595700\t610367\t我能夠想到三句嗎?我們只能用一個科學的邏輯來處理這個問題。所以不是養殖場,看起來飼料裡面沒有,同一批也沒有,也不是進口混充。甚至剛才說進到這個屠宰場只有這一批對不對?\n611167\t628968\t那在這個狀況裡面坦白說真的讓大家很難不懷疑是實驗室但我要說我們目前沒有直接的證據說一定是實驗室事件我們也看到新聞看到臺中市的這位人員在專家會議裡面看起來是有些情緒也許他也覺得委屈但不管怎樣\n631050\t656765\t從刪去法來看的話大家現在很難不懷疑是實驗室事件我覺得這邊有一些大家必須互相體諒的事情至少這邏輯上面是很清楚的我們用科學的邏輯來看待這個風險管理的事情那接下來我要再問了一個問題包括這個王部長部長再往下部長這個台堂公司有一份公文\n657998\t687370\t那發文給台中市政府要求市政府應該要加驗同批的豬肉這個台黨有發這個公文嘛對不對對是那台中市政府怎麼回應台中市政府其實沒有回我們那我們是看到他在媒體講說他沒有沒有這樣的一個機制我看到2月17他有一份公文他上面寫說欠男受理後來他回我們了是他說欠男受理那他講欠男受理的理由是什麼\n688424\t714337\t他的意思是說我都是我主動來抽驗那如果每個人都送給我要求我驗的話他說沒有這樣的一個機制部長你覺得這個拒絕的理由合理嗎但是因為這件事情對台糖影響太大對台灣的豬肉影響太大所以當時我們才會希望地方政府可不可以就同批肉的來前後檢驗其實我們是想要確認這樣的事情\n714497\t721307\t市長不只你希望知道我跟你說就連我自己就是說我說我過年在台中我們有很多親戚朋友都在台中\n722150\t746164\t有很多的台中市民都想知道到底如果看到一塊豬肉有西部特羅到底影響的範圍有多廣同批豬肉是不是都有我想這連很多台中市民都想知道的事情如果不是台南發文我覺得很多台中市民都想發文要求你是不是應該驗同批豬肉啊所以我想問部長你覺得剛才說他說他現在拒絕的理由你覺得合不合理\n748761\t772269\t我想這是台中市的職權,所以這個台堂我們後來也中央政府請其他的地方去抽,那我們台堂也把所有同批肉找的到都找到以後,也讓大家來驗,然後也找第三方來驗。你們後來現在是給台南來驗嘛對不對?是。那台南就願意驗了嘛對不對?我聽看起來台南比台中市政府更有科學精神啊。\n773169\t794657\t我看起來台南市政府比台中市政府更想了解真相啊我其實真的不懂一個想了解食安真相的地方政府為什麼會拒絕我真的不懂你有這麼多的市民想知道到底真相是什麼你到底有什麼理由拒絕你有什麼理由不想再驗了是台中市的實驗室能量不足嗎部長\n796829\t820918\t這個我沒有辦法置評,但是我覺得因為豬肉對國人是一個非常重要的一個產品,所以我們覺得很想很想快一點讓大家有信心。我從一開始看到這新聞的時候,我覺得盧市長看起來好像是一個食安的守護者,很勇於的去揭露公佈他驗到的事情,可是大家越了解以後越發現事實不是這樣啊。\n822378\t851053\t你在公布前本來就有很多該做的事情沒有做造成了一定程度的恐慌但後面當今天有更多人想要請你離親的時候想要請你加驗的時候結果你又拒絕我覺得這態度很奇怪啊這個態度讓我不覺得台中市是一個食安守護者的態度啊我覺得是一個食安守護者的地方政府的話我該做我有很多該做的事情他沒做啊我覺得這是大家現在最困惑的地方最後部長再往下齁\n853525\t873457\t現在我們當然這幾天有跟台南公司所知那看到這一次同批商品下架總共是1.7公噸台南公司估計損失直接跟間接的總共大概5000多萬元動員人力大概是700多萬而且重點是這個動員的人力\n873917\t902191\t恐怕很多都是在春節的年假期間是嗎對不對沒有錯所以我們也看到有很多台堂的業務跟相關沒有辦法休息的人員出來在媒體上面有講他們也很想哭嘛這樣子那可是我最後我想要反映一件事情其實這件事情我們在立法院談了快一個月的時間談了幾個禮拜的時間也許三個禮拜的時間其實我們有很多的市民大眾朋友他請我務必一定要跟\n903756\t922389\t經濟部跟台堂跟行政院反映這一次的事件看起來現在釐清至今有很多這個包括豬農包括很多的廠商民運是有受損我們剛剛看到間接直接的損失他們都問我一個事情是我們\n950862\t950964\t本集完\n","txt":"謝謝院長那請這個陳院長麻煩請陳院長備詢王院長好院長這個今天我們的食安專報我想社會其實等了一段時間那尤其是最近這個非常非常受到全國注目的這個台堂的\n我自己就很經歷了這個附近的街訪鄰居就在問說哇臺東市政府驗出了這個豬肉裡面有西部特羅那到底這個哪些豬肉有西部特羅那\n到底影響的範圍有多廣那他到底該不該再去買豬肉其實這個在過年期間都讓很多我們一般的民眾有很多的困惑我自己就經歷這個事因為我這次過年其實在台中過的所以院長我其實有幾個問題我們今天在食安專報的時候我們其實需要來討論第一件事情當然食安的問題其實就是一個風險管理的問題\n那下一張齁\n所以這個大概是我們做了一些整理也就是現在的時間軸那從目前資料看出來從2月15號台中市政府抽驗第一次驗出在台湯的豬肉有這個以行獸體數希伯特羅的這個事件那到2月2號中市府發出新聞稿宣稱驗出\n那後面開始陸陸續續從農業部、續產會、SGS等等的一路那甚至在最近是由台南衛生局來檢驗但是都是未檢驗出但我其實比較好奇的事情就會是在1月15號到2月2號這中間的間隔這18天這18天我想先我也請那個王部長可不可以進一步王部長我可不可以請問一下\n就臺堂公司是在哪一天收到臺中市政府的通知?跟委員報告好,臺中市政府臺堂是在這個2月2號他對外新聞稿之後我們其實才知道。所以意思是說在2月2號新聞稿之前\n其實臺東市政府並沒有告知台南公司這件事情。完全沒有。所以你們是看了新臺東公司是看了新聞稿才發現的。是。那這完全不合規定啊。對。照理來說剛才說他其實要先通知廠商給廠商15天的時間。15天到了以後才有公告或公佈這個不合規定的廠商。按照我們的法規程序是這樣啊對不對。可是這樣看起來臺東市政府並沒有合乎規定啊。\n我說實話我一開始看到新聞的時候我想說台中市政府是不是真的很心急很想要一言出趕快來告知社會提醒社會結果後來看到的資料不是這樣這中間其實台中市政府默默的自己搞了18天的時間\n這個部長或者是院長我想請問如果按照一個食安管理的專業的話這18天其實台中市政府應該要完成哪些事情或者是在他這個公佈前應該要完成哪些事情就食安專業來說\n跟委員報告,他其實一開始驗到的時候應該是在15號採樣之後的幾天那時候他一開始驗到的時候應該就是要去找同批的來double check但是臺中的實驗室這邊的話他是卻對同一個檢體在多次的double check22次對不對對\n我們現在其實陸陸續續把這個事情給釐清了。我說實話我剛才聽到前面的這個洪申翰委員剛才一直在說這個中央政府要訂SOP,但現在看到的問題反而是台中政府連既有的規定都沒有遵守啊。你說他很急的公佈,他有沒有急啊?他其實搞了18天啊。\n這18天明明就有很多可以做的事情包括剛剛說到如果你就很馬上的去市場上面找出同一批主流來做相關的檢驗或者是你跟中央通知了以後找中央一起來釐清有沒有跨縣市的因素我覺得這些都很好至少在你發新聞稿公布的時候社會大眾台中市民會知道說看起來是有驗出可是大致這個事件是一個什麼樣的事件影響範圍多廣\n我到底要不要恐懼恐慌這件事情至少大眾就不會遇到我在過年時間我們接訪鄰居的這種擔憂嘛對不對可是現在看起來這是台中市政府該做而未做的事情今天我們大家是在討論這個問題所以我要說今天我們從不管是這個有很多的民意代表我們並不是跟台中市政府說你不該\n你不該公佈。我們不是說你不該公佈。當然驗到了秉持著透明的原則該公佈就公佈這沒有問題。但現在的問題是好像你在公佈前有明明很多該做的事情你沒做到反而才造成這個社會不必要的恐慌嗎?院長是不是這樣子?最重要的一件事情就是剛才你提到的\n他應該要有15天的時間讓臺堂申請復驗才能夠公佈完全沒有做到那這18天的時間他沒有去通知臺堂給臺堂來有一個申請復驗的機會這就是沒有按照SOP啦\n其實如果是台湾市政府的話我如果在1月15日宴出我如果一兩天內我就通知台湾我給15天我其實可能還是可以在2月2日的時候公布可是我可以在2月2日前就把該做的事情給做完我還可以同時把同批的豬肉都檢驗完成讓大家知道不用那麼擔心也許真的就只有這一塊天選之肉是遇到了問題其實社會不會這麼多恐慌的\n所以我們現在說的都不是台中市政府不該公布可是我覺得很遺憾有一度現在這個不管是在台黨把他扭曲成現在執政黨是說好像台中市政府不該公布並不是我們是說你該公布前該做的事情沒有做我想這是最重要的事情院長我下面接下來要請問因為我想我們其實都學過科學我們都進過實驗室的工作裡面其實這件事情發生以後我有很多過去跟我們一起在有實驗室工作經驗的人他直接就說\n下一張齁\n再往下其實我們把幾個可能的因素其實列出來我一個一個想請教院長跟部長\n現在為什麼只有臺中市臺中的那一盒豬肉驗出第一個我想問養殖場是不是有含有西伏特羅成分的藥品目前我先跟委員說明就是豬的那個進到屠宰場是統進統出所以我們第一時間我們就移動管制以後去針對那個豬場去做所有的清查是沒有的然後我們也清查了飼料飼料沒有所以這個養殖場是沒有的對不對那飼料的部分有沒有\n對那同樣的飼料我們也是同步在檢查包括豬隻檢查飼料檢查如果這兩個沒有的話那相對的他在這個豬場使用的西部特羅應該是不會有的好所以養殖場沒有豬場沒有飼料上面也沒有那我要問現在檢查的同一批豬肉目前查了多少同一批豬肉有沒有驗出來\n我所了解現在目前的同一批豬肉從2月2號公佈以後我們開始去查到目前為止同一批同品項的豬肉都沒有同一批同品項豬肉也沒有那有沒有進口的豬肉混沖到\n有關於整個的一個豬肉的屠宰特別是臺堂是一個履歷驗證人他是委託信工去做屠宰那屠宰場本身他有HACCP的一個認證那我們也調查了整個當天的屠宰的過程中只有臺堂的那一批豬肉進到屠宰場並沒有其他的豬肉進到這個屠宰場裡面去所以不會有其他的豬肉去做粉蔥所以院長\n對﹖\n我能夠想到三句嗎?我們只能用一個科學的邏輯來處理這個問題。所以不是養殖場,看起來飼料裡面沒有,同一批也沒有,也不是進口混充。甚至剛才說進到這個屠宰場只有這一批對不對?\n那在這個狀況裡面坦白說真的讓大家很難不懷疑是實驗室但我要說我們目前沒有直接的證據說一定是實驗室事件我們也看到新聞看到臺中市的這位人員在專家會議裡面看起來是有些情緒也許他也覺得委屈但不管怎樣\n從刪去法來看的話大家現在很難不懷疑是實驗室事件我覺得這邊有一些大家必須互相體諒的事情至少這邏輯上面是很清楚的我們用科學的邏輯來看待這個風險管理的事情那接下來我要再問了一個問題包括這個王部長部長再往下部長這個台堂公司有一份公文\n那發文給台中市政府要求市政府應該要加驗同批的豬肉這個台黨有發這個公文嘛對不對對是那台中市政府怎麼回應台中市政府其實沒有回我們那我們是看到他在媒體講說他沒有沒有這樣的一個機制我看到2月17他有一份公文他上面寫說欠男受理後來他回我們了是他說欠男受理那他講欠男受理的理由是什麼\n他的意思是說我都是我主動來抽驗那如果每個人都送給我要求我驗的話他說沒有這樣的一個機制部長你覺得這個拒絕的理由合理嗎但是因為這件事情對台糖影響太大對台灣的豬肉影響太大所以當時我們才會希望地方政府可不可以就同批肉的來前後檢驗其實我們是想要確認這樣的事情\n市長不只你希望知道我跟你說就連我自己就是說我說我過年在台中我們有很多親戚朋友都在台中\n有很多的台中市民都想知道到底如果看到一塊豬肉有西部特羅到底影響的範圍有多廣同批豬肉是不是都有我想這連很多台中市民都想知道的事情如果不是台南發文我覺得很多台中市民都想發文要求你是不是應該驗同批豬肉啊所以我想問部長你覺得剛才說他說他現在拒絕的理由你覺得合不合理\n我想這是台中市的職權,所以這個台堂我們後來也中央政府請其他的地方去抽,那我們台堂也把所有同批肉找的到都找到以後,也讓大家來驗,然後也找第三方來驗。你們後來現在是給台南來驗嘛對不對?是。那台南就願意驗了嘛對不對?我聽看起來台南比台中市政府更有科學精神啊。\n我看起來台南市政府比台中市政府更想了解真相啊我其實真的不懂一個想了解食安真相的地方政府為什麼會拒絕我真的不懂你有這麼多的市民想知道到底真相是什麼你到底有什麼理由拒絕你有什麼理由不想再驗了是台中市的實驗室能量不足嗎部長\n這個我沒有辦法置評,但是我覺得因為豬肉對國人是一個非常重要的一個產品,所以我們覺得很想很想快一點讓大家有信心。我從一開始看到這新聞的時候,我覺得盧市長看起來好像是一個食安的守護者,很勇於的去揭露公佈他驗到的事情,可是大家越了解以後越發現事實不是這樣啊。\n你在公布前本來就有很多該做的事情沒有做造成了一定程度的恐慌但後面當今天有更多人想要請你離親的時候想要請你加驗的時候結果你又拒絕我覺得這態度很奇怪啊這個態度讓我不覺得台中市是一個食安守護者的態度啊我覺得是一個食安守護者的地方政府的話我該做我有很多該做的事情他沒做啊我覺得這是大家現在最困惑的地方最後部長再往下齁\n現在我們當然這幾天有跟台南公司所知那看到這一次同批商品下架總共是1.7公噸台南公司估計損失直接跟間接的總共大概5000多萬元動員人力大概是700多萬而且重點是這個動員的人力\n恐怕很多都是在春節的年假期間是嗎對不對沒有錯所以我們也看到有很多台堂的業務跟相關沒有辦法休息的人員出來在媒體上面有講他們也很想哭嘛這樣子那可是我最後我想要反映一件事情其實這件事情我們在立法院談了快一個月的時間談了幾個禮拜的時間也許三個禮拜的時間其實我們有很多的市民大眾朋友他請我務必一定要跟\n經濟部跟台堂跟行政院反映這一次的事件看起來現在釐清至今有很多這個包括豬農包括很多的廠商民運是有受損我們剛剛看到間接直接的損失他們都問我一個事情是我們\n本集完\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.467 --> 00:36.265\n謝謝院長那請這個陳院長麻煩請陳院長備詢王院長好院長這個今天我們的食安專報我想社會其實等了一段時間那尤其是最近這個非常非常受到全國注目的這個台堂的\n\n00:36.843 --> 00:42.308\n我自己就很經歷了這個附近的街訪鄰居就在問說哇臺東市政府驗出了這個豬肉裡面有西部特羅那到底這個哪些豬肉有西部特羅那\n\n01:04.073 --> 01:28.602\n到底影響的範圍有多廣那他到底該不該再去買豬肉其實這個在過年期間都讓很多我們一般的民眾有很多的困惑我自己就經歷這個事因為我這次過年其實在台中過的所以院長我其實有幾個問題我們今天在食安專報的時候我們其實需要來討論第一件事情當然食安的問題其實就是一個風險管理的問題\n\n01:30.305 --> 01:30.425\n那下一張齁\n\n02:00.305 --> 02:20.274\n所以這個大概是我們做了一些整理也就是現在的時間軸那從目前資料看出來從2月15號台中市政府抽驗第一次驗出在台湯的豬肉有這個以行獸體數希伯特羅的這個事件那到2月2號中市府發出新聞稿宣稱驗出\n\n02:21.514 --> 02:50.404\n那後面開始陸陸續續從農業部、續產會、SGS等等的一路那甚至在最近是由台南衛生局來檢驗但是都是未檢驗出但我其實比較好奇的事情就會是在1月15號到2月2號這中間的間隔這18天這18天我想先我也請那個王部長可不可以進一步王部長我可不可以請問一下\n\n02:52.295 --> 02:56.277\n就臺堂公司是在哪一天收到臺中市政府的通知?跟委員報告好,臺中市政府臺堂是在這個2月2號他對外新聞稿之後我們其實才知道。所以意思是說在2月2號新聞稿之前\n\n03:14.736 --> 03:43.954\n其實臺東市政府並沒有告知台南公司這件事情。完全沒有。所以你們是看了新臺東公司是看了新聞稿才發現的。是。那這完全不合規定啊。對。照理來說剛才說他其實要先通知廠商給廠商15天的時間。15天到了以後才有公告或公佈這個不合規定的廠商。按照我們的法規程序是這樣啊對不對。可是這樣看起來臺東市政府並沒有合乎規定啊。\n\n03:45.609 --> 04:02.706\n我說實話我一開始看到新聞的時候我想說台中市政府是不是真的很心急很想要一言出趕快來告知社會提醒社會結果後來看到的資料不是這樣這中間其實台中市政府默默的自己搞了18天的時間\n\n04:05.085 --> 04:19.794\n這個部長或者是院長我想請問如果按照一個食安管理的專業的話這18天其實台中市政府應該要完成哪些事情或者是在他這個公佈前應該要完成哪些事情就食安專業來說\n\n04:22.070 --> 04:48.410\n跟委員報告,他其實一開始驗到的時候應該是在15號採樣之後的幾天那時候他一開始驗到的時候應該就是要去找同批的來doublecheck但是臺中的實驗室這邊的話他是卻對同一個檢體在多次的doublecheck22次對不對對\n\n04:50.491 --> 05:11.902\n我們現在其實陸陸續續把這個事情給釐清了。我說實話我剛才聽到前面的這個洪申翰委員剛才一直在說這個中央政府要訂SOP,但現在看到的問題反而是台中政府連既有的規定都沒有遵守啊。你說他很急的公佈,他有沒有急啊?他其實搞了18天啊。\n\n05:14.073 --> 05:42.150\n這18天明明就有很多可以做的事情包括剛剛說到如果你就很馬上的去市場上面找出同一批主流來做相關的檢驗或者是你跟中央通知了以後找中央一起來釐清有沒有跨縣市的因素我覺得這些都很好至少在你發新聞稿公布的時候社會大眾台中市民會知道說看起來是有驗出可是大致這個事件是一個什麼樣的事件影響範圍多廣\n\n05:43.251 --> 06:04.830\n我到底要不要恐懼恐慌這件事情至少大眾就不會遇到我在過年時間我們接訪鄰居的這種擔憂嘛對不對可是現在看起來這是台中市政府該做而未做的事情今天我們大家是在討論這個問題所以我要說今天我們從不管是這個有很多的民意代表我們並不是跟台中市政府說你不該\n\n06:06.516 --> 06:27.519\n你不該公佈。我們不是說你不該公佈。當然驗到了秉持著透明的原則該公佈就公佈這沒有問題。但現在的問題是好像你在公佈前有明明很多該做的事情你沒做到反而才造成這個社會不必要的恐慌嗎?院長是不是這樣子?最重要的一件事情就是剛才你提到的\n\n06:27.839 --> 06:42.868\n他應該要有15天的時間讓臺堂申請復驗才能夠公佈完全沒有做到那這18天的時間他沒有去通知臺堂給臺堂來有一個申請復驗的機會這就是沒有按照SOP啦\n\n06:43.248 --> 07:08.540\n其實如果是台湾市政府的話我如果在1月15日宴出我如果一兩天內我就通知台湾我給15天我其實可能還是可以在2月2日的時候公布可是我可以在2月2日前就把該做的事情給做完我還可以同時把同批的豬肉都檢驗完成讓大家知道不用那麼擔心也許真的就只有這一塊天選之肉是遇到了問題其實社會不會這麼多恐慌的\n\n07:08.880 --> 07:35.879\n所以我們現在說的都不是台中市政府不該公布可是我覺得很遺憾有一度現在這個不管是在台黨把他扭曲成現在執政黨是說好像台中市政府不該公布並不是我們是說你該公布前該做的事情沒有做我想這是最重要的事情院長我下面接下來要請問因為我想我們其實都學過科學我們都進過實驗室的工作裡面其實這件事情發生以後我有很多過去跟我們一起在有實驗室工作經驗的人他直接就說\n\n07:37.008 --> 07:37.148\n下一張齁\n\n08:00.831 --> 08:08.192\n再往下其實我們把幾個可能的因素其實列出來我一個一個想請教院長跟部長\n\n08:09.824 --> 08:38.546\n現在為什麼只有臺中市臺中的那一盒豬肉驗出第一個我想問養殖場是不是有含有西伏特羅成分的藥品目前我先跟委員說明就是豬的那個進到屠宰場是統進統出所以我們第一時間我們就移動管制以後去針對那個豬場去做所有的清查是沒有的然後我們也清查了飼料飼料沒有所以這個養殖場是沒有的對不對那飼料的部分有沒有\n\n08:39.066 --> 08:58.187\n對那同樣的飼料我們也是同步在檢查包括豬隻檢查飼料檢查如果這兩個沒有的話那相對的他在這個豬場使用的西部特羅應該是不會有的好所以養殖場沒有豬場沒有飼料上面也沒有那我要問現在檢查的同一批豬肉目前查了多少同一批豬肉有沒有驗出來\n\n08:59.569 --> 09:13.748\n我所了解現在目前的同一批豬肉從2月2號公佈以後我們開始去查到目前為止同一批同品項的豬肉都沒有同一批同品項豬肉也沒有那有沒有進口的豬肉混沖到\n\n09:14.489 --> 09:39.675\n有關於整個的一個豬肉的屠宰特別是臺堂是一個履歷驗證人他是委託信工去做屠宰那屠宰場本身他有HACCP的一個認證那我們也調查了整個當天的屠宰的過程中只有臺堂的那一批豬肉進到屠宰場並沒有其他的豬肉進到這個屠宰場裡面去所以不會有其他的豬肉去做粉蔥所以院長\n\n09:55.700 --> 10:10.367\n我能夠想到三句嗎?我們只能用一個科學的邏輯來處理這個問題。所以不是養殖場,看起來飼料裡面沒有,同一批也沒有,也不是進口混充。甚至剛才說進到這個屠宰場只有這一批對不對?\n\n10:11.167 --> 10:28.968\n那在這個狀況裡面坦白說真的讓大家很難不懷疑是實驗室但我要說我們目前沒有直接的證據說一定是實驗室事件我們也看到新聞看到臺中市的這位人員在專家會議裡面看起來是有些情緒也許他也覺得委屈但不管怎樣\n\n10:31.050 --> 10:56.765\n從刪去法來看的話大家現在很難不懷疑是實驗室事件我覺得這邊有一些大家必須互相體諒的事情至少這邏輯上面是很清楚的我們用科學的邏輯來看待這個風險管理的事情那接下來我要再問了一個問題包括這個王部長部長再往下部長這個台堂公司有一份公文\n\n10:57.998 --> 11:27.370\n那發文給台中市政府要求市政府應該要加驗同批的豬肉這個台黨有發這個公文嘛對不對對是那台中市政府怎麼回應台中市政府其實沒有回我們那我們是看到他在媒體講說他沒有沒有這樣的一個機制我看到2月17他有一份公文他上面寫說欠男受理後來他回我們了是他說欠男受理那他講欠男受理的理由是什麼\n\n11:28.424 --> 11:54.337\n他的意思是說我都是我主動來抽驗那如果每個人都送給我要求我驗的話他說沒有這樣的一個機制部長你覺得這個拒絕的理由合理嗎但是因為這件事情對台糖影響太大對台灣的豬肉影響太大所以當時我們才會希望地方政府可不可以就同批肉的來前後檢驗其實我們是想要確認這樣的事情\n\n11:54.497 --> 12:01.307\n市長不只你希望知道我跟你說就連我自己就是說我說我過年在台中我們有很多親戚朋友都在台中\n\n12:02.150 --> 12:26.164\n有很多的台中市民都想知道到底如果看到一塊豬肉有西部特羅到底影響的範圍有多廣同批豬肉是不是都有我想這連很多台中市民都想知道的事情如果不是台南發文我覺得很多台中市民都想發文要求你是不是應該驗同批豬肉啊所以我想問部長你覺得剛才說他說他現在拒絕的理由你覺得合不合理\n\n12:28.761 --> 12:52.269\n我想這是台中市的職權,所以這個台堂我們後來也中央政府請其他的地方去抽,那我們台堂也把所有同批肉找的到都找到以後,也讓大家來驗,然後也找第三方來驗。你們後來現在是給台南來驗嘛對不對?是。那台南就願意驗了嘛對不對?我聽看起來台南比台中市政府更有科學精神啊。\n\n12:53.169 --> 13:14.657\n我看起來台南市政府比台中市政府更想了解真相啊我其實真的不懂一個想了解食安真相的地方政府為什麼會拒絕我真的不懂你有這麼多的市民想知道到底真相是什麼你到底有什麼理由拒絕你有什麼理由不想再驗了是台中市的實驗室能量不足嗎部長\n\n13:16.829 --> 13:40.918\n這個我沒有辦法置評,但是我覺得因為豬肉對國人是一個非常重要的一個產品,所以我們覺得很想很想快一點讓大家有信心。我從一開始看到這新聞的時候,我覺得盧市長看起來好像是一個食安的守護者,很勇於的去揭露公佈他驗到的事情,可是大家越了解以後越發現事實不是這樣啊。\n\n13:42.378 --> 14:11.053\n你在公布前本來就有很多該做的事情沒有做造成了一定程度的恐慌但後面當今天有更多人想要請你離親的時候想要請你加驗的時候結果你又拒絕我覺得這態度很奇怪啊這個態度讓我不覺得台中市是一個食安守護者的態度啊我覺得是一個食安守護者的地方政府的話我該做我有很多該做的事情他沒做啊我覺得這是大家現在最困惑的地方最後部長再往下齁\n\n14:13.525 --> 14:33.457\n現在我們當然這幾天有跟台南公司所知那看到這一次同批商品下架總共是1.7公噸台南公司估計損失直接跟間接的總共大概5000多萬元動員人力大概是700多萬而且重點是這個動員的人力\n\n14:33.917 --> 15:02.191\n恐怕很多都是在春節的年假期間是嗎對不對沒有錯所以我們也看到有很多台堂的業務跟相關沒有辦法休息的人員出來在媒體上面有講他們也很想哭嘛這樣子那可是我最後我想要反映一件事情其實這件事情我們在立法院談了快一個月的時間談了幾個禮拜的時間也許三個禮拜的時間其實我們有很多的市民大眾朋友他請我務必一定要跟\n\n15:03.756 --> 15:22.389\n經濟部跟台堂跟行政院反映這一次的事件看起來現在釐清至今有很多這個包括豬農包括很多的廠商民運是有受損我們剛剛看到間接直接的損失他們都問我一個事情是我們\n\n15:50.862 --> 15:50.964\n本集完\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.467,"end":36.265,"text":"謝謝院長那請這個陳院長麻煩請陳院長備詢王院長好院長這個今天我們的食安專報我想社會其實等了一段時間那尤其是最近這個非常非常受到全國注目的這個台堂的"},{"start":36.843,"end":42.308,"text":"我自己就很經歷了這個附近的街訪鄰居就在問說哇臺東市政府驗出了這個豬肉裡面有西部特羅那到底這個哪些豬肉有西部特羅那"},{"start":64.073,"end":88.602,"text":"到底影響的範圍有多廣那他到底該不該再去買豬肉其實這個在過年期間都讓很多我們一般的民眾有很多的困惑我自己就經歷這個事因為我這次過年其實在台中過的所以院長我其實有幾個問題我們今天在食安專報的時候我們其實需要來討論第一件事情當然食安的問題其實就是一個風險管理的問題"},{"start":90.305,"end":90.425,"text":"那下一張齁"},{"start":120.305,"end":140.274,"text":"所以這個大概是我們做了一些整理也就是現在的時間軸那從目前資料看出來從2月15號台中市政府抽驗第一次驗出在台湯的豬肉有這個以行獸體數希伯特羅的這個事件那到2月2號中市府發出新聞稿宣稱驗出"},{"start":141.514,"end":170.404,"text":"那後面開始陸陸續續從農業部、續產會、SGS等等的一路那甚至在最近是由台南衛生局來檢驗但是都是未檢驗出但我其實比較好奇的事情就會是在1月15號到2月2號這中間的間隔這18天這18天我想先我也請那個王部長可不可以進一步王部長我可不可以請問一下"},{"start":172.295,"end":176.277,"text":"就臺堂公司是在哪一天收到臺中市政府的通知?跟委員報告好,臺中市政府臺堂是在這個2月2號他對外新聞稿之後我們其實才知道。所以意思是說在2月2號新聞稿之前"},{"start":194.736,"end":223.954,"text":"其實臺東市政府並沒有告知台南公司這件事情。完全沒有。所以你們是看了新臺東公司是看了新聞稿才發現的。是。那這完全不合規定啊。對。照理來說剛才說他其實要先通知廠商給廠商15天的時間。15天到了以後才有公告或公佈這個不合規定的廠商。按照我們的法規程序是這樣啊對不對。可是這樣看起來臺東市政府並沒有合乎規定啊。"},{"start":225.609,"end":242.706,"text":"我說實話我一開始看到新聞的時候我想說台中市政府是不是真的很心急很想要一言出趕快來告知社會提醒社會結果後來看到的資料不是這樣這中間其實台中市政府默默的自己搞了18天的時間"},{"start":245.085,"end":259.794,"text":"這個部長或者是院長我想請問如果按照一個食安管理的專業的話這18天其實台中市政府應該要完成哪些事情或者是在他這個公佈前應該要完成哪些事情就食安專業來說"},{"start":262.07,"end":288.41,"text":"跟委員報告,他其實一開始驗到的時候應該是在15號採樣之後的幾天那時候他一開始驗到的時候應該就是要去找同批的來double check但是臺中的實驗室這邊的話他是卻對同一個檢體在多次的double check22次對不對對"},{"start":290.491,"end":311.902,"text":"我們現在其實陸陸續續把這個事情給釐清了。我說實話我剛才聽到前面的這個洪申翰委員剛才一直在說這個中央政府要訂SOP,但現在看到的問題反而是台中政府連既有的規定都沒有遵守啊。你說他很急的公佈,他有沒有急啊?他其實搞了18天啊。"},{"start":314.073,"end":342.15,"text":"這18天明明就有很多可以做的事情包括剛剛說到如果你就很馬上的去市場上面找出同一批主流來做相關的檢驗或者是你跟中央通知了以後找中央一起來釐清有沒有跨縣市的因素我覺得這些都很好至少在你發新聞稿公布的時候社會大眾台中市民會知道說看起來是有驗出可是大致這個事件是一個什麼樣的事件影響範圍多廣"},{"start":343.251,"end":364.83,"text":"我到底要不要恐懼恐慌這件事情至少大眾就不會遇到我在過年時間我們接訪鄰居的這種擔憂嘛對不對可是現在看起來這是台中市政府該做而未做的事情今天我們大家是在討論這個問題所以我要說今天我們從不管是這個有很多的民意代表我們並不是跟台中市政府說你不該"},{"start":366.516,"end":387.519,"text":"你不該公佈。我們不是說你不該公佈。當然驗到了秉持著透明的原則該公佈就公佈這沒有問題。但現在的問題是好像你在公佈前有明明很多該做的事情你沒做到反而才造成這個社會不必要的恐慌嗎?院長是不是這樣子?最重要的一件事情就是剛才你提到的"},{"start":387.839,"end":402.868,"text":"他應該要有15天的時間讓臺堂申請復驗才能夠公佈完全沒有做到那這18天的時間他沒有去通知臺堂給臺堂來有一個申請復驗的機會這就是沒有按照SOP啦"},{"start":403.248,"end":428.54,"text":"其實如果是台湾市政府的話我如果在1月15日宴出我如果一兩天內我就通知台湾我給15天我其實可能還是可以在2月2日的時候公布可是我可以在2月2日前就把該做的事情給做完我還可以同時把同批的豬肉都檢驗完成讓大家知道不用那麼擔心也許真的就只有這一塊天選之肉是遇到了問題其實社會不會這麼多恐慌的"},{"start":428.88,"end":455.879,"text":"所以我們現在說的都不是台中市政府不該公布可是我覺得很遺憾有一度現在這個不管是在台黨把他扭曲成現在執政黨是說好像台中市政府不該公布並不是我們是說你該公布前該做的事情沒有做我想這是最重要的事情院長我下面接下來要請問因為我想我們其實都學過科學我們都進過實驗室的工作裡面其實這件事情發生以後我有很多過去跟我們一起在有實驗室工作經驗的人他直接就說"},{"start":457.008,"end":457.148,"text":"下一張齁"},{"start":480.831,"end":488.192,"text":"再往下其實我們把幾個可能的因素其實列出來我一個一個想請教院長跟部長"},{"start":489.824,"end":518.546,"text":"現在為什麼只有臺中市臺中的那一盒豬肉驗出第一個我想問養殖場是不是有含有西伏特羅成分的藥品目前我先跟委員說明就是豬的那個進到屠宰場是統進統出所以我們第一時間我們就移動管制以後去針對那個豬場去做所有的清查是沒有的然後我們也清查了飼料飼料沒有所以這個養殖場是沒有的對不對那飼料的部分有沒有"},{"start":519.066,"end":538.187,"text":"對那同樣的飼料我們也是同步在檢查包括豬隻檢查飼料檢查如果這兩個沒有的話那相對的他在這個豬場使用的西部特羅應該是不會有的好所以養殖場沒有豬場沒有飼料上面也沒有那我要問現在檢查的同一批豬肉目前查了多少同一批豬肉有沒有驗出來"},{"start":539.569,"end":553.748,"text":"我所了解現在目前的同一批豬肉從2月2號公佈以後我們開始去查到目前為止同一批同品項的豬肉都沒有同一批同品項豬肉也沒有那有沒有進口的豬肉混沖到"},{"start":554.489,"end":579.675,"text":"有關於整個的一個豬肉的屠宰特別是臺堂是一個履歷驗證人他是委託信工去做屠宰那屠宰場本身他有HACCP的一個認證那我們也調查了整個當天的屠宰的過程中只有臺堂的那一批豬肉進到屠宰場並沒有其他的豬肉進到這個屠宰場裡面去所以不會有其他的豬肉去做粉蔥所以院長"},{"start":580.879,"end":595.486,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":595.7,"end":610.367,"text":"我能夠想到三句嗎?我們只能用一個科學的邏輯來處理這個問題。所以不是養殖場,看起來飼料裡面沒有,同一批也沒有,也不是進口混充。甚至剛才說進到這個屠宰場只有這一批對不對?"},{"start":611.167,"end":628.968,"text":"那在這個狀況裡面坦白說真的讓大家很難不懷疑是實驗室但我要說我們目前沒有直接的證據說一定是實驗室事件我們也看到新聞看到臺中市的這位人員在專家會議裡面看起來是有些情緒也許他也覺得委屈但不管怎樣"},{"start":631.05,"end":656.765,"text":"從刪去法來看的話大家現在很難不懷疑是實驗室事件我覺得這邊有一些大家必須互相體諒的事情至少這邏輯上面是很清楚的我們用科學的邏輯來看待這個風險管理的事情那接下來我要再問了一個問題包括這個王部長部長再往下部長這個台堂公司有一份公文"},{"start":657.998,"end":687.37,"text":"那發文給台中市政府要求市政府應該要加驗同批的豬肉這個台黨有發這個公文嘛對不對對是那台中市政府怎麼回應台中市政府其實沒有回我們那我們是看到他在媒體講說他沒有沒有這樣的一個機制我看到2月17他有一份公文他上面寫說欠男受理後來他回我們了是他說欠男受理那他講欠男受理的理由是什麼"},{"start":688.424,"end":714.337,"text":"他的意思是說我都是我主動來抽驗那如果每個人都送給我要求我驗的話他說沒有這樣的一個機制部長你覺得這個拒絕的理由合理嗎但是因為這件事情對台糖影響太大對台灣的豬肉影響太大所以當時我們才會希望地方政府可不可以就同批肉的來前後檢驗其實我們是想要確認這樣的事情"},{"start":714.497,"end":721.307,"text":"市長不只你希望知道我跟你說就連我自己就是說我說我過年在台中我們有很多親戚朋友都在台中"},{"start":722.15,"end":746.164,"text":"有很多的台中市民都想知道到底如果看到一塊豬肉有西部特羅到底影響的範圍有多廣同批豬肉是不是都有我想這連很多台中市民都想知道的事情如果不是台南發文我覺得很多台中市民都想發文要求你是不是應該驗同批豬肉啊所以我想問部長你覺得剛才說他說他現在拒絕的理由你覺得合不合理"},{"start":748.761,"end":772.269,"text":"我想這是台中市的職權,所以這個台堂我們後來也中央政府請其他的地方去抽,那我們台堂也把所有同批肉找的到都找到以後,也讓大家來驗,然後也找第三方來驗。你們後來現在是給台南來驗嘛對不對?是。那台南就願意驗了嘛對不對?我聽看起來台南比台中市政府更有科學精神啊。"},{"start":773.169,"end":794.657,"text":"我看起來台南市政府比台中市政府更想了解真相啊我其實真的不懂一個想了解食安真相的地方政府為什麼會拒絕我真的不懂你有這麼多的市民想知道到底真相是什麼你到底有什麼理由拒絕你有什麼理由不想再驗了是台中市的實驗室能量不足嗎部長"},{"start":796.829,"end":820.918,"text":"這個我沒有辦法置評,但是我覺得因為豬肉對國人是一個非常重要的一個產品,所以我們覺得很想很想快一點讓大家有信心。我從一開始看到這新聞的時候,我覺得盧市長看起來好像是一個食安的守護者,很勇於的去揭露公佈他驗到的事情,可是大家越了解以後越發現事實不是這樣啊。"},{"start":822.378,"end":851.053,"text":"你在公布前本來就有很多該做的事情沒有做造成了一定程度的恐慌但後面當今天有更多人想要請你離親的時候想要請你加驗的時候結果你又拒絕我覺得這態度很奇怪啊這個態度讓我不覺得台中市是一個食安守護者的態度啊我覺得是一個食安守護者的地方政府的話我該做我有很多該做的事情他沒做啊我覺得這是大家現在最困惑的地方最後部長再往下齁"},{"start":853.525,"end":873.457,"text":"現在我們當然這幾天有跟台南公司所知那看到這一次同批商品下架總共是1.7公噸台南公司估計損失直接跟間接的總共大概5000多萬元動員人力大概是700多萬而且重點是這個動員的人力"},{"start":873.917,"end":902.191,"text":"恐怕很多都是在春節的年假期間是嗎對不對沒有錯所以我們也看到有很多台堂的業務跟相關沒有辦法休息的人員出來在媒體上面有講他們也很想哭嘛這樣子那可是我最後我想要反映一件事情其實這件事情我們在立法院談了快一個月的時間談了幾個禮拜的時間也許三個禮拜的時間其實我們有很多的市民大眾朋友他請我務必一定要跟"},{"start":903.756,"end":922.389,"text":"經濟部跟台堂跟行政院反映這一次的事件看起來現在釐清至今有很多這個包括豬農包括很多的廠商民運是有受損我們剛剛看到間接直接的損失他們都問我一個事情是我們"},{"start":950.862,"end":950.964,"text":"本集完"}]}}}}