{"id":149135,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149135","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61d28f3f53a2feb63df71158d2c1a3c1b347916f9bc661eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6a3fa2fd90ac653ea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"15:04:04 - 15:19:55","影片長度":"00:15:51","會議時間":"2024-02-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-23","duration":951,"end_time":"2024-02-23T15:19:55+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-23T15:04:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":316,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（15時4分）院長，可以開始了嗎？還是我要等一下？等一下好了。"],["主席：我們請今天的壽星鍾佳濱委員質詢。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席、現場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請院長跟兩位部長。"],["主席：哪兩位部長？"],["鍾委員佳濱：薛部長和陳部長。"],["主席：再次請陳院長與兩位部長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：院長好，兩位部長好。請問院長及部長，你們過去有沒有參加政論節目的現場？有沒有？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有耶！"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有？我是常參加啦，我倒覺得剛剛委員的詢答好像是在政論節目的現場，只是通常在那個時候，作為節目主持人，也就是現在院長那個位置的人會出來制止。我覺得很遺憾，剛剛那樣的討論無助於事實的澄清，而且還錯誤引用在場委員之前的發言，我覺得這也不足取啦。所以我鄭重的請院長在未來遇到發言陷入這樣的情況時可以適時的維持一下秩序，可以嗎？"],["主席：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝院長。","我們就開始今天的質詢，有關「天選之肉」西布特羅的事件，請問一下，一片肉、同一個檢體檢驗超過20次，數值都不一樣，這樣合乎常理嗎？院長，您是科學家。"],["陳院長建仁：不合常理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：您覺得通常在這種情況之下，正規的實驗室會怎麼去處理這樣的檢驗結果？"],["陳院長建仁：正規的實驗室應該有兩個部分，第一個，如果這片肉之外還有其他同一批的肉，應該要來做檢驗；第二個，他也可以請求另外的專業檢驗機構再協助他了解為什麼它的數值會不一致。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，因為我念過國中也念過高中，雖然我是念文組的，但我們做實驗課時也是有這樣要求。"],["陳院長建仁：對、對、對，這是做實驗的要求。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當你做出來的實驗數值跟人家不一樣的時候，可以請別人再照方操作一次，看看會不會做出這樣的結果，對不對？好。","接下來請問陳部長，同批肉品920件零檢出，你們是用什麼樣的標準去找這920件檢體？是同一隻豬？同一批豬？還是同一批梅花肉？還是同一個台糖的養豬場？你們是怎麼做的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想跟委員說明，大概分兩個部分，第一個部分我們是針對臺中市政府所公布的這批肉的部分……"],["鍾委員佳濱：批號？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們馬上去回溯到同一批、同品項的這些豬肉，有掌握到的這些豬肉部分總共有17包，在前面二天17包檢驗都沒有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們會往上去溯源養豬場嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，然後第二個部分就是溯源到南靖的養豬場，有關養豬場的部分，我們會針對同一批生產的豬肉跟他的飼料……"],["鍾委員佳濱：連飼料都驗了？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，連飼料都驗，因為如果有可能的話，也有可能會在飼料裡面添加，所以我們針對飼料也檢驗，結果也是沒有的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以這920件的檢驗結果是同一批肉品批號的肉品、加工的肉品，肉品來的同一批豬，他們在其他地方也去把它找回來……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，是不同批的豬……"],["鍾委員佳濱：同一個養豬場，出這批豬肉的養豬場……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，同批養豬場……"],["鍾委員佳濱：也去抽其他的豬，這批養豬廠的飼料，包括庫存的飼料都拿出來抽驗，是不是？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以經過這麼縝密之後，你是不是覺得可以排除飼料添加的可能？你覺得……"],["陳代理部長駿季：以目前來講，我們所檢測的數據結果都沒有檢出……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以排除飼料添加？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們初步排除在台糖的南靖的飼料、養豬場……"],["鍾委員佳濱：排除了飼料添加的問題？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，不是台糖的養豬場，你們有沒有做檢測？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們也有，我們在肉品市場也檢測了4包……"],["鍾委員佳濱：也沒有驗出來嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以目前可不可以說，經過你們檢測的，基本上並沒有豬農在飼料添加？以目前你們檢測的來說。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，目前我們檢測的包括肉品市場跟台糖的市場都沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這總共累積1,567件都沒有檢出瘦肉精，那麼是不是可以還豬農清白？因為我們屏東是養豬大縣，豬農很care這個事情，你覺得這樣有沒有辦法還豬農清白了？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我覺得以我們現在的數據可以推斷目前我們國產豬肉的飼養都沒有使用西布特羅或其他瘦肉精。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以我可以說一個簡單結論，就是還豬農一個清白。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：接下來，如果不是豬農的問題，從生產到賣出都零檢出，養豬場、屠宰分裝、信功、賣場，包括台糖的賣場或國軍的承銷商陳列品，結果這些到臺中市政府之前通通是零檢出，你認為這樣是不是也還了台糖，包括賣場、包括肉品加工廠的清白？表示他們這個過程都沒有用藥品去污染到肉品，有沒有？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，因為我們現在的數據顯示，台糖的肉品我想是絕對沒問題的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以台糖也是清白的，豬農也是清白的。請問院長，根據你一個科學家的結果，有一位民眾黨主席說，這個不用講也知道這是實驗室污染，你覺得他的話可信嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我想經過剛才這樣的科學論證，確實只有臺中市政府的實驗室的一塊肉有，所以他判斷是實驗室污染的可能性，但是我個人是覺得說，到目前為止，因為從買到這個檢體到檢驗階段已經很長，現在要蒐集真正的事證已經有困難，但是我們不能夠排除有實驗室污染的可能性。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以實驗室污染現在恐怕也很難證實啦……"],["陳院長建仁：雖然沒有證明，雖然不能證實，但是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是有可能？"],["陳院長建仁：有可能。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是臺中市衛生局說這是非科學的說法，但是有人不是說科學說法，而是說從動機論，就跑出了剛才前面委員有提到的所謂政治千面人，但所謂的政治千面人表示他不是千面人啦，千面人是為了真的下毒，要去毒死人、去勒索，對不對？但顯然西布特羅在這樣的含量是毒不死人的，他的目的大概也不是透過下毒來恐嚇食品工廠，他是要製造其他的目的，有人說這樣是政治千面人，換言之，這個驗出來的西布特羅如果不是實驗室污染，不是被動的被附著到殘藥，而是有人刻意放進去的，你覺得有沒有這個可能？"],["陳院長建仁：我想實驗室的同仁在做實驗的時候，大概……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不會是實驗室的人做的？好，如果不是實驗室的人做的，有沒有可能是在送到實驗室之前，在賣場檢體上有人放的，有沒有這個可能？一點點、千萬分之一可能，有沒有這個可能？"],["陳院長建仁：這個可能需要看賣場的錄影帶結果……"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，這就是我的重點了，至少到目前為止，公務機關在沒有查明情況之下就強制商品下架，是不是有產生對於該商品公司有國家賠償法的賠償責任問題？"],["陳院長建仁：這一件事情確實是造成台糖很大的損失……"],["鍾委員佳濱：損失多少你知道嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：五千三百多萬。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們看一下，台糖說損失了超過5,000萬。"],["陳院長建仁：對，五千多萬。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你覺得如果真的符合國家賠償成立的要件，的確是公務人員有心或無心的疏失或犯錯，是不是台糖有可能可以提起國家賠償，要求相關公務機關負責？有沒有這個可能性？"],["陳院長建仁：這個我們來……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有？"],["陳院長建仁：確實他們有損失，這是事實啦，不過現在最重要的就像……"],["鍾委員佳濱：假如證明是公務人員的疏失或過失，可以提出國賠嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：對，如果確實……"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以嘛？"],["陳院長建仁：如果確實是有公務員的疏失的話……"],["鍾委員佳濱：確實的話？好，台糖至少可以證明它的損失。","農業部長，這些日子以來，在本月2號臺中市政府記者會之前，我們毛豬每公斤的價格是93塊5，交易頭數是2萬7,000頭，結果在召開記者會之後，價格掉到84塊，交易頭數掉到2萬2,000頭，請問你認為豬農或養豬產業有沒有損失？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想整個事件一開始是引起了一些消費者對於國產豬有疑慮的部分，在過年前的平均批發價大概是90.8元，還維持著一定，但是過年後開始有一些降低，這個降低的部分，一部分因素是大家的恐慌，另外一部分是因為過年後消費習性的疲弱，所以我們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，部長，我直接問你，如果豬農認為他的豬隻銷售損失跟某市政府的記者會有關聯，你覺得他這樣的訴求有沒有一點點道理？他覺得受到影響了。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想豬農一定會做這樣的訴求，我們也會隨時跟豬農去了解他的實際損失是用批發價的方式去處理，還是用其他的方式。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們來看一下，問題來了，台糖是一個營業公司，對不對？它的出貨多少都有案可稽，豬農說我去年賣多少錢、去年賣多少隻，今年過年前沒有賣到這麼多，豬農有能力去定位價格下跌、畜養成本增加還是銷量影響嗎？請問豬農有沒有舉證的能力？相較於台糖公司，你覺得豬農有沒有這樣的能力？"],["陳代理部長駿季：豬農是完全沒有舉證的能力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，如果後來證明既不是台糖的問題，是某公務機關的錯，台糖可以跟負責的人提出國賠，豬農受到影響，但沒有能力去舉證，請問豬農的損失誰來賠？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想豬農的損失，他其實最在意的就是說國產豬肉不要讓消費者失去信心，我覺得這一點一定是更重要的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那是未來！那是未來！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：農業部可不可以承諾，可以來協助豬農去舉證跟界定他們的損失？就是他們過去這段時間因為這個烏龍事件所造成的損害，幫忙協助豬農，未來如果他們採取司法途徑，至少讓他們跟台糖公司一樣，可以舉證外部客觀的損失，農業部可不可以來協助？如果他們請求的話。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我想我們會跟養豬業者去研議相關的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你承諾會幫他們嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們會幫助他們來協議……"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果豬農協會提出來，農業部願意協助他們來定損跟舉證嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，後續如果我們檢查的確是因為這個事件，是一個很特殊的狀況……"],["鍾委員佳濱：因果關係由法院來判定啦，但是舉證……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，判定的結果後，我們會來協助。"],["鍾委員佳濱：舉證跟定損，農業部願意來協助嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們會來協助。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，很好，接下來我要請問衛福部長，其實這件事情我不敢說他是政治千面人，但是賣場陳列的生鮮食材，你有沒有去過便利超商買過茶葉蛋？"],["薛部長瑞元：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有嘛，部長你有吃過嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你知不知道你前面一個買茶葉蛋的是什麼人？"],["薛部長瑞元：不知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你知不知道你後面一個買茶葉蛋的是什麼人？"],["薛部長瑞元：不知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不知道。如果前面一個人的手上很髒，髒東西掉到放茶葉蛋的鍋子內，你去買茶葉蛋，你會不會擔心？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然有這種可能。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然有這個可能嘛！請問一下，你覺得目前在賣場，如果包裝好的、完整封存的食品，過去都曾經真正的發生過被千面人下毒的情況，那現在不是包裝完好的食品，像茶葉蛋、關東煮之類開架式的，讓不特定的消費者能夠自由取用，有沒有可能產生在賣場污染的情況？"],["薛部長瑞元：如果開架的話，有可能。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有可能。部長，您不太舒服喔？"],["陳院長建仁：對，他喉嚨不好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我就問院長好了。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：院長，那沒有強制賣場導入危害控管，你看看我們從原料的生產到加工製造都有強制要導入HACCP，根據食品安全衛生管理法第八條第二項有10類，包括餐廳業者，它的人員要定時接受健康檢查，包括要遵守一定的衛生規範，對不對？這在我們的法規有規定的，那是指專門處理顧客飲食的專業人員、特定人員，但是在賣場的顧客，你有辦法要求他洗過手再去夾茶葉蛋嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，如果是顧客，很難。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有辦法嘛，對不對？所以，我們來看一看是不是能從這一次的事件學到教訓，萬一有人模仿像千面人那樣，因為我們臺灣的賣場很多熟食是公開隨意顧客取用的，只要有一個地方發生問題，是不是造成了所有民眾的恐慌，對不對？千面人當時在日本就是這樣子，他完全沒有下毒喔，他只是威脅說有下毒，還在那個食品上貼一張紙說有毒不能吃，裡面根本沒有下毒，就造成了整個日本食品業的損害。你認為我們目前賣場對於熟食區的管理夠不夠完善？"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得這個部分我們可以再來監控、加強。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我要提醒一下部長跟院長，今天這個事情大概可以證明不是豬農在飼料上違法添加，也幾乎可以證明食品加工廠跟賣場，食品廠本身並沒有在加工的過程中被污染，那有一個可能就是實驗室自己購買的藥品，在檢查過程中可能是無意中的污染，但是也很難去查個水落石出，但是也有人說有可能是在開放式的貨架上特定的產品被下藥。我不要說是下毒，他只是要製造恐慌。如果目前我們臺灣的賣場存在有這樣的風險空間，院長，你可不可以要求衛福部徹底檢討我們所有的賣場，他們在這些區域的安全監控跟行為的管理？"],["陳院長建仁：我想在賣場裡面，特別是開架式的、open的販賣食物，確實是要加強管理，這個部分我們可能需要按照委員的建議來做比較好的監控；至於已經包封好的、不是開架式的這些食物，我們可能就是需要再做剛才講的抽樣檢查等等，來確保它整個過程都是安全的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：去年發生毒莓果事件的時候，我就有要求衛福部，我說對於這些大型的賣場，因為他們銷量特別大，他們說他們在進口之前都交給檢驗室檢查過了；或者說他們信賴出口的時候，對方的官方跟我方的官方的抽驗，貨品進入賣場後，他自己沒有再去做一些必要的化驗，他說只有自主管理，部長，是不是這樣？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你認為現在經過這個事件之後，對於這些銷量特別大的大型賣場，是不是要課以隨時去賣場做一些，不是自主管理而是強制要求他要去做必要的巡檢，防止他的賣場中的商品被污染、被破壞，尤其在開架式的，很多便利超商的開架式的飲食區供顧客隨意取用的，是不是尤其要加強這些大型連鎖公司在他們的連鎖超商當中的管理要列入規範，你可不可以承諾要找時間訂出來？不是自主管理而已，而是要被要求來管理？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個還是會有一點困難。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那要不要去研擬？"],["薛部長瑞元：可以來研擬，就看……"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以。院長，他承諾了，你覺得什麼時候可以做？"],["陳院長建仁：我想……"],["鍾委員佳濱：3個月可以做出來嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我想這一個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：3個月可以嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：需要跟廠商一起來瞭解，這個我們會……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你承諾可以做？"],["陳院長建仁：會加強，會加強這方面的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員佳濱。","我們接下來請登記第9號的謝委員龍介質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","陳昭姿","李坤城","洪孟楷","洪申翰","廖偉翔","吳思瑤","徐巧芯","鍾佳濱","謝龍介","吳沛憶","王育敏","何欣純","李彥秀","王定宇","羅智強"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2024-02-23"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00009","1130401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「民進黨政府執政八年臺灣食安問題總檢討」專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1130401_00012"}},"transcript":{"id":"149135","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149135","tool":"pyannote","id":"149135-pyannote"},"job_id":"6zuVa3rHth5zV33q","queued_at":"2024-06-02 14:26:16","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-02 14:27:21","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149135"},{"time":"2024-06-02 14:27:22","msg":"downloading https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61d28f3f53a2feb63df71158d2c1a3c1b347916f9bc661ea945a8247ee1410e479bf6ad6b7fd95895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"},{"time":"2024-06-02 14:27:48","msg":"converting mp4 to wav"},{"time":"2024-06-02 14:27:50","msg":"running pyannote"},{"time":"2024-06-02 14:28:03","msg":"status: 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281.272, \"end\": 290.84, \"text\": \"那從生產再賣出的零檢出、養豬場、屠宰分莊、信工、賣場、台糖的賣場或是那一個國軍的承銷商的陳列品\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 281.272, \"end\": 281.652, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 281.652, \"end\": 282.113, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"產\"}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 282.113, \"end\": 282.473, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"賣\"}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 282.473, \"end\": 282.593, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 282.593, \"end\": 282.713, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"零\", \"start\": 282.713, \"end\": 283.514, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 283.514, \"end\": 284.194, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"養\"}, {\"word\": \"豬\"}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"屠\", \"start\": 284.194, \"end\": 284.335, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"宰\", \"start\": 284.335, \"end\": 284.515, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 284.515, \"end\": 285.055, 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{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 554.434, \"end\": 554.534, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 554.534, \"end\": 554.594, \"score\": 0.233}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 554.594, \"end\": 554.714, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 554.714, \"end\": 554.774, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 554.774, \"end\": 554.954, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 554.954, \"end\": 555.074, \"score\": 0.76}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 555.074, \"end\": 555.134, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 555.134, \"end\": 555.154, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 556.135, \"end\": 557.196, \"text\": \"豬農是完全沒有舉證的能力\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"豬\"}, {\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 556.135, \"end\": 556.455, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 556.455, \"end\": 556.756, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 556.756, 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{\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"產\"}, {\"word\": \"豬\"}, {\"word\": \"肉\", \"start\": 597.33, \"end\": 597.61, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 597.61, \"end\": 597.69, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 597.69, \"end\": 598.11, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"消\", \"start\": 598.11, \"end\": 598.471, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 598.471, \"end\": 598.671, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"失\", \"start\": 598.671, \"end\": 598.831, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 598.831, \"end\": 599.011, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"信\", \"start\": 599.011, \"end\": 599.191, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 599.191, \"end\": 599.651, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 599.651, \"end\": 599.952, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 599.952, \"end\": 600.272, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 600.272, \"end\": 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0.75}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 939.493, \"end\": 939.513, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,092 --> 00:00:01,492\n請中委員嘉賓質詢。\n\n2\n00:00:17,846 --> 00:00:42,185\n我們請今天的壽星徐佳濱委員啊鍾佳濱委員主席外場的委員先進會席的政府機關所長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請院長跟兩位部長學部長跟陳部長哪兩位部長學部長跟陳部長好的再次請陳院長跟兩位部長備詢眾委好院長好兩位部長好\n\n3\n00:00:47,388 --> 00:01:10,683\n請問院長部長你們過去有沒有參加政論節目的現場有沒有沒有沒有我是常參加啦我倒覺得剛剛似乎委員的詢答好像是在政論節目的現場只是通常在那個時候作為節目主持人也就是現在的院長的位置的人會出來制止啊那我覺得很遺憾的齁剛剛那樣的討論\n\n4\n00:01:11,553 --> 00:01:40,449\n無助於事實的澄清而且還錯誤引用在場委員之前的發言我覺得這也不足取啊所以我鄭重的請院長未來可以澄清你當發言陷入這樣的情況的時候可以事實來維持一下秩序可以嗎?謝謝院長好那我們就開始今天的質詢這個天選之樓西部特樓的事件那請問一下一片肉同一個檢體檢驗超過20次數值都不一樣那這合常理嗎?院長您是科學家\n\n5\n00:01:41,651 --> 00:01:58,702\n那您覺得通常這種情況之下,正規的實驗室他會怎麼去處理這樣的檢驗結果?正規的實驗室應該有兩個部分。第一個呢,如果這一片座之外呢,還有其他同一批的座應該要來做檢驗。第二個呢,他也可以請求另外的這個專業的這個檢驗機構呢,再協助他來了解為什麼他的這個數值會不一致。\n\n6\n00:02:04,065 --> 00:02:27,092\n是因為我也念過國中也念過高中雖然我念的是文組但是我們做實驗課的時候也是有這樣的要求當你做出來實驗數值跟人家不一樣的時候那可以請別人再照方的操作一次看會不會做出這樣的結果對不對好那請問一下往下一頁齁那麼接下來呢請問陳部長齁同批的肉品920件零檢出你們是用什麼樣的標準去找這920件檢體\n\n7\n00:02:29,172 --> 00:02:46,100\n同一隻豬,同一批豬,還是同一批梅花肉,還是同一個台堂的養豬場,你們是怎麼做的?我想跟委員說明,大概分兩個部分。第一個部分就是,我們是針對台中市政府所公布的這一批肉的部分,我們馬上\n\n8\n00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:47,140\n﹚廣告\n\n9\n00:03:12,842 --> 00:03:27,352\n如果有可能的話那有可能會在飼料裡面添加所以我們針對飼料也驗結果也是沒有的這920件驗的結果同一批肉品的批號的肉品加工的肉品對肉品來的同一批豬\n\n10\n00:03:28,593 --> 00:03:34,254\n對,是不同批的豬養豬場。對,同一批養豬場。對,同一批養豬場。是。是。是。以目前來講齁,我們所檢測的這些數據的結果都沒檢出。對,是排除飼料添加。排除的飼料添加的問題。對,好。\n\n11\n00:03:58,138 --> 00:04:18,619\n那不是臺商的養豬場你有沒有做檢測?我們也有,我們在肉餅市場也檢測了。目前可不可以說經過你們檢測的基本上並沒有豬農在飼料添加,目前你們檢測的?對,目前我們檢測的包括肉餅市場跟臺商的市場都沒有。那這總共累積1567件都沒有檢出瘦肉精?\n\n12\n00:04:19,195 --> 00:04:40,011\n那是不是可以還豬農清白?因為我們屏東是養豬大縣,豬農很care這個事情。你覺得有這樣的有沒有辦法還豬農清白?我覺得以我們現在的數據去可以推斷說我們現在目前國產豬的豬肉的飼養都沒有使用這個西部特羅和其他所有豬肉。所以我可以說一個簡單的決定就是還豬農清白。接下來如果不是豬農的問題,\n\n13\n00:04:41,272 --> 00:04:50,840\n那從生產再賣出的零檢出、養豬場、屠宰分莊、信工、賣場、台糖的賣場或是那一個國軍的承銷商的陳列品\n\n14\n00:04:51,431 --> 00:05:12,685\n那結果這些到台中市政府之前通通是引檢出那你認為這樣是不是也還了臺糖包括賣場包括肉品加工廠的清白表示他們這個過程都沒有去用藥品去污染到這樣的肉品有沒有對因為我們現在的數據顯示臺糖的肉品是我想是絕對沒問題的\n\n15\n00:05:13,826 --> 00:05:41,167\n好,所以臺黨也是清白的,中壇也是清白的,那請問院長那關於你一個科學家的結果有一位民眾黨的主席說啊,這個沒人知道這是實驗室污染你覺得他這話可信嗎?我想經過剛才的這樣的一個科學的論證確實就只有臺中市政府的實驗室的一塊肉有那所以他判斷是實驗室污染的可能性但是我個人是覺得說\n\n16\n00:05:42,537 --> 00:05:57,045\n目前為止因為他買到這個檢體到檢驗這個階段已經很長現在要收集這個真正的事證已經有困難但是我們不能夠排除有實驗室污染的可能性所以實驗室污染現在恐怕也很難證實雖然不能證實但是有可能\n\n17\n00:06:00,467 --> 00:06:25,388\n但是呢臺中市衛生局說這是非科學的說法但是有人不是說科學的說法有人是說從動機論就跑出了剛剛前面委員提到的所謂的政治牽面人所謂的政治牽門表示他不是牽面人啊牽面人是為了真的下毒要去毒死人去勒索對不對那顯然的西普特羅在這樣的含量是毒不死人的他的目的大概也不是透過下毒來恐嚇食品工廠\n\n18\n00:06:26,169 --> 00:06:41,447\n他是要製造其他的目的,那有人說這樣是政治簽名人,換言之這個驗出來的西布特羅如果不是實驗室污染,不是被動地被附著到這個殘藥,是有人刻意地放進去的,你覺得有沒有這個可能?\n\n19\n00:06:42,318 --> 00:07:04,384\n我想在實驗室的同仁在做實驗的時候大概不會是實驗室的人做的有沒有對如果不是實驗室人做的那有沒有可能是在實驗室送到實驗室之前在賣場的檢體上有人放有沒有這個可能一點點千萬分之一可能有沒有這個可能這個可能要需要看那個賣場的錄影帶的檢體有沒有這就是我的重點了\n\n20\n00:07:04,844 --> 00:07:17,720\n好那至少呢在目前為止公務機關在沒有查明這個情況的之下就強制商品下架是不是有產生對於該商品公司一個國家賠償法的賠償責任的問題\n\n21\n00:07:20,793 --> 00:07:47,956\n這一件事情確實是造成了台糖很大的損失。損失多少你知道嗎?五千三百多萬。我們看一下,台糖說損失了多少?損失了將超過千萬。那你覺得如果真的是成立國家賠償的要件,的確是公務人員有心或無心的疏失或犯錯,那是不是台糖有可能可以提起國家賠償,要求相關的公務機關負責,有沒有這個可能性?這個我們來...有沒有?\n\n22\n00:07:49,303 --> 00:08:11,708\n確實他們有損失這是事實不過現在最重要的那假如證明是公務人員的疏失或過失那可以提出國賠嗎?對那如果確實是有公務人員的疏失的話那台堂至少他可以證明他的損失那請問這些日子以來本月2號台中市長記者會之前農業部長我們毛豬每公斤的價格是93塊5交易投訴是2\n\n23\n00:08:15,990 --> 00:08:25,035\n兩萬七千頭。結果開了記者會之後呢,價格掉到八十四塊錢。交易頭數呢降到了兩萬二。請問你認為豬農或養豬產業有沒有損失?\n\n24\n00:08:27,813 --> 00:08:52,356\n我想整個的事件一開始是引起了一些消費者對於我們國產豬肉的疑慮的部分那在過年前的部分我們現在的平均的批發價大概是90.8元還維持一定但是在過年後以後開始有一些降低那這個降低的部分一部分的因素是大家的一個恐慌那另外一個部分是因為過年後的一個消費的一個習性的疲弱\n\n25\n00:08:53,096 --> 00:09:15,154\n那部長如果直接問你如果朱龍認為說他的豬的銷售損失跟某市政府的記者會有關聯你覺得他這樣的訴求有沒有一點點道理他覺得受到影響我想朱龍一定會做這樣的一個訴求那我們也會隨時跟朱龍去了解就是說他實際的這樣的一個損失是用批發價的方式去處理還是用其他的方式好那我們來看一下那就問題來了\n\n26\n00:09:16,135 --> 00:09:17,196\n豬農是完全沒有舉證的能力\n\n27\n00:09:41,218 --> 00:10:01,373\n那如果後來證明既不是台糖的問題是某公務機關的錯台糖可以跟負責的人提出國賠那豬農受到影響他沒有能力去舉證請問豬農的損失誰來賠我想豬農的損失他其實最在意的就是說他的國產豬肉不要讓消費者失去信心我覺得這一點一定要更重要那是未來\n\n28\n00:10:03,274 --> 00:10:18,594\n那如果過去農業部會不會承諾可以來協助豬農去舉證跟界定他們的損失就他們過去這段時間因為這個烏龍事件所造成損害幫豬農來協助未來如果他們採取司法途徑他們至少跟台糖公司一樣可以去舉證\n\n29\n00:10:19,875 --> 00:10:44,440\n外部客觀的一個損失,農業部可不可以來協助,如果他們請求?對,我想我們會跟我們的養豬業者去研議好相關的一個...承諾會幫助他們嗎?對,我們會幫助...如果養豬協會提出來,農業部願意協助他們來定損跟舉證嗎?後續如果說我們的檢查的確是因為這個事件,是一個很特殊的...因果關係有法院來判定啦,但是舉證跟定損,農業部願意來協助嗎?我們會來協助。\n\n30\n00:10:48,721 --> 00:11:11,206\n接下來我要請衛福部長其實這件事情我不敢說他是政治牽面人但是賣場陳列的生鮮食材你有沒有去過便利超商買過茶葉蛋有有嘛部長你有吃過嘛你知不知道你前一個買茶葉蛋的人是什麼人不知道你知不知道你後面一個買茶葉蛋的人是什麼人不知道那如果前面一個人的手上很髒東西掉到茶葉蛋你去買茶葉蛋你會不會擔心\n\n31\n00:11:14,175 --> 00:11:36,604\n當然有這種可能當然有這個可能嘛請問一下你覺得目前在賣場如果包裝好的完整封存的食品過去都曾經被發生過真正的切面人下毒的情況那現在不是包裝完好的食品像茶葉蛋關東煮開架式的讓消費者不定特定的自由取用有沒有可能產生在賣場污染的情況\n\n32\n00:11:37,729 --> 00:11:59,296\n如果開架的話有可能有可能部長您不太舒服了我就問院長好了那危害控管沒有強制賣場導入你看看我們從原料的生產到加工製造都有強制導入HACCP一共有提供了在市民安全衛生法管理法第8條第二項有超過的有10類\n\n33\n00:12:00,436 --> 00:12:29,093\n包括餐廳業者他的人員要定時接受健康檢查他們要遵守一定的衛生規範對不對這是我們的法規有規定的那是指專門處理顧客飲食的專業人員特定人員但是在賣場前面的顧客你有辦法要求他洗過手再去夾茶葉蛋嗎沒有,如果是顧客可能沒有辦法嘛對不對所以我們來看一看那是不是從這次事件的教訓如果有人\n\n34\n00:12:30,368 --> 00:12:45,419\n萬一像千面人那模仿因為我們臺灣的賣場很多熟食是公開隨意顧客取用的只要有一個地方發生問題是不是造成了所有的恐慌對不對千面人當時在日本就是這樣子\n\n35\n00:12:45,999 --> 00:12:48,640\n我覺得這個部分我們可以再來監控加強也就是說我要提醒一下部長跟院長\n\n36\n00:13:11,069 --> 00:13:19,966\n今天這個事情已經證明可以大概可以證明說不是豬農在飼料上違法添加也幾乎可以證明食品加工廠跟賣場\n\n37\n00:13:21,721 --> 00:13:42,498\n施品廠本身他並沒有在這個過程中去污染那有一個可能就是實驗室自己購買的藥品在檢查過程中可能是無意中的污染但是也很難去查個水落石出但是也有人說有可能是在開放式的貨架上特定的產品被下藥我不要說是下毒\n\n38\n00:13:43,078 --> 00:14:12,078\n他只是要製造恐慌那如果目前我們臺灣的賣場存在有這樣的風險空間院長你可不可以要求衛福部來徹底的檢討我們所有的賣場他們在這些區域的一個安全監控跟行為的管理我想在賣場裡面特別是開架式的像這樣open的那個食物的販賣確實是要加強來管理那這個部分我們可能需要\n\n39\n00:14:12,639 --> 00:14:14,620\n去年發生毒莓果事件的時候我就要求衛福部\n\n40\n00:14:36,018 --> 00:14:54,249\n我說對於這些大型的賣場因為他們銷量特別大他們說他們的進口之前都交給檢驗室檢查過了或者說他們信賴出口的時候對方的官方跟我方的官方的抽驗他自己進入賣場後沒有再去做一些必要的化驗他只有說自主管理部長是不是這樣\n\n41\n00:14:55,745 --> 00:15:10,357\n那你認為現在經過這個事件之後對於這些銷量特別大的大型賣場是不是要刻意他隨時去他的賣場做一些不是自主而是被強制要求要去做必要的巡檢防止他的賣場他的商品被污染被破壞\n\n42\n00:15:11,138 --> 00:15:36,821\n尤其在開架式很多的便利超商他開架式的飲食區供顧客隨意取用的是不是尤其要加強列入這些大型連鎖公司在他們的連鎖超商當中的管理要規範你可不可以承諾要找時間定出來不是自主規而已要被要求來管理這個還是會有一點困難那要不要去研擬可以來研究看院長他承諾了你覺得什麼時候可以做\n\n43\n00:15:38,250 --> 00:15:39,513\n我想這一個也需要跟廠商一起來瞭解\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1092\t1492\t請中委員嘉賓質詢。\n17846\t42185\t我們請今天的壽星徐佳濱委員 啊 鍾佳濱委員主席 外場的委員先進 會席的政府機關所長 官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請院長跟兩位部長學部長跟陳部長 哪兩位部長學部長跟陳部長好的 再次請陳院長跟兩位部長備詢眾委好院長好兩位部長好\n47388\t70683\t請問院長部長你們過去有沒有參加政論節目的現場有沒有沒有沒有我是常參加啦我倒覺得剛剛似乎委員的詢答好像是在政論節目的現場只是通常在那個時候作為節目主持人也就是現在的院長的位置的人會出來制止啊那我覺得很遺憾的齁剛剛那樣的討論\n71553\t100449\t無助於事實的澄清而且還錯誤引用在場委員之前的發言我覺得這也不足取啊所以我鄭重的請院長未來可以澄清你當發言陷入這樣的情況的時候可以事實來維持一下秩序可以嗎?謝謝院長好那我們就開始今天的質詢這個天選之樓西部特樓的事件那請問一下一片肉同一個檢體檢驗超過20次數值都不一樣那這合常理嗎?院長您是科學家\n101651\t118702\t那您覺得通常這種情況之下,正規的實驗室他會怎麼去處理這樣的檢驗結果?正規的實驗室應該有兩個部分。第一個呢,如果這一片座之外呢,還有其他同一批的座應該要來做檢驗。第二個呢,他也可以請求另外的這個專業的這個檢驗機構呢,再協助他來了解為什麼他的這個數值會不一致。\n124065\t147092\t是因為我也念過國中也念過高中雖然我念的是文組但是我們做實驗課的時候也是有這樣的要求當你做出來實驗數值跟人家不一樣的時候那可以請別人再照方的操作一次看會不會做出這樣的結果對不對好那請問一下往下一頁齁那麼接下來呢請問陳部長齁同批的肉品920件零檢出你們是用什麼樣的標準去找這920件檢體\n149172\t166100\t同一隻豬,同一批豬,還是同一批梅花肉,還是同一個台堂的養豬場,你們是怎麼做的?我想跟委員說明,大概分兩個部分。第一個部分就是,我們是針對台中市政府所公布的這一批肉的部分,我們馬上\n167120\t167140\t﹚廣告\n192842\t207352\t如果有可能的話那有可能會在飼料裡面添加所以我們針對飼料也驗結果也是沒有的這920件驗的結果同一批肉品的批號的肉品加工的肉品對肉品來的同一批豬\n208593\t214254\t對,是不同批的豬養豬場。對,同一批養豬場。對,同一批養豬場。是。是。是。以目前來講齁,我們所檢測的這些數據的結果都沒檢出。對,是排除飼料添加。排除的飼料添加的問題。對,好。\n238138\t258619\t那不是臺商的養豬場你有沒有做檢測?我們也有,我們在肉餅市場也檢測了。目前可不可以說經過你們檢測的基本上並沒有豬農在飼料添加,目前你們檢測的?對,目前我們檢測的包括肉餅市場跟臺商的市場都沒有。那這總共累積1567件都沒有檢出瘦肉精?\n259195\t280011\t那是不是可以還豬農清白?因為我們屏東是養豬大縣,豬農很care這個事情。你覺得有這樣的有沒有辦法還豬農清白?我覺得以我們現在的數據去可以推斷說我們現在目前國產豬的豬肉的飼養都沒有使用這個西部特羅和其他所有豬肉。所以我可以說一個簡單的決定就是還豬農清白。接下來如果不是豬農的問題,\n281272\t290840\t那從生產再賣出的零檢出、養豬場、屠宰分莊、信工、賣場、台糖的賣場或是那一個國軍的承銷商的陳列品\n291431\t312685\t那結果這些到台中市政府之前通通是引檢出那你認為這樣是不是也還了臺糖包括賣場包括肉品加工廠的清白表示他們這個過程都沒有去用藥品去污染到這樣的肉品有沒有對因為我們現在的數據顯示臺糖的肉品是我想是絕對沒問題的\n313826\t341167\t好,所以臺黨也是清白的,中壇也是清白的,那請問院長那關於你一個科學家的結果有一位民眾黨的主席說啊,這個沒人知道這是實驗室污染你覺得他這話可信嗎?我想經過剛才的這樣的一個科學的論證確實就只有臺中市政府的實驗室的一塊肉有那所以他判斷是實驗室污染的可能性但是我個人是覺得說\n342537\t357045\t目前為止因為他買到這個檢體到檢驗這個階段已經很長現在要收集這個真正的事證已經有困難但是我們不能夠排除有實驗室污染的可能性所以實驗室污染現在恐怕也很難證實雖然不能證實但是有可能\n360467\t385388\t但是呢臺中市衛生局說這是非科學的說法但是有人不是說科學的說法有人是說從動機論就跑出了剛剛前面委員提到的所謂的政治牽面人所謂的政治牽門表示他不是牽面人啊牽面人是為了真的下毒要去毒死人去勒索對不對那顯然的西普特羅在這樣的含量是毒不死人的他的目的大概也不是透過下毒來恐嚇食品工廠\n386169\t401447\t他是要製造其他的目的,那有人說這樣是政治簽名人,換言之這個驗出來的西布特羅如果不是實驗室污染,不是被動地被附著到這個殘藥,是有人刻意地放進去的,你覺得有沒有這個可能?\n402318\t424384\t我想在實驗室的同仁在做實驗的時候大概不會是實驗室的人做的有沒有對如果不是實驗室人做的那有沒有可能是在實驗室送到實驗室之前在賣場的檢體上有人放有沒有這個可能一點點千萬分之一可能有沒有這個可能這個可能要需要看那個賣場的錄影帶的檢體有沒有這就是我的重點了\n424844\t437720\t好那至少呢在目前為止公務機關在沒有查明這個情況的之下就強制商品下架是不是有產生對於該商品公司一個國家賠償法的賠償責任的問題\n440793\t467956\t這一件事情確實是造成了台糖很大的損失。損失多少你知道嗎?五千三百多萬。我們看一下,台糖說損失了多少?損失了將超過千萬。那你覺得如果真的是成立國家賠償的要件,的確是公務人員有心或無心的疏失或犯錯,那是不是台糖有可能可以提起國家賠償,要求相關的公務機關負責,有沒有這個可能性?這個我們來...有沒有?\n469303\t491708\t確實他們有損失這是事實不過現在最重要的那假如證明是公務人員的疏失或過失那可以提出國賠嗎?對那如果確實是有公務人員的疏失的話那台堂至少他可以證明他的損失那請問這些日子以來本月2號台中市長記者會之前農業部長我們毛豬每公斤的價格是93塊5交易投訴是2\n495990\t505035\t兩萬七千頭。結果開了記者會之後呢,價格掉到八十四塊錢。交易頭數呢降到了兩萬二。請問你認為豬農或養豬產業有沒有損失?\n507813\t532356\t我想整個的事件一開始是引起了一些消費者對於我們國產豬肉的疑慮的部分那在過年前的部分我們現在的平均的批發價大概是90.8元還維持一定但是在過年後以後開始有一些降低那這個降低的部分一部分的因素是大家的一個恐慌那另外一個部分是因為過年後的一個消費的一個習性的疲弱\n533096\t555154\t那部長如果直接問你如果朱龍認為說他的豬的銷售損失跟某市政府的記者會有關聯你覺得他這樣的訴求有沒有一點點道理他覺得受到影響我想朱龍一定會做這樣的一個訴求那我們也會隨時跟朱龍去了解就是說他實際的這樣的一個損失是用批發價的方式去處理還是用其他的方式好那我們來看一下那就問題來了\n556135\t557196\t豬農是完全沒有舉證的能力\n581218\t601373\t那如果後來證明既不是台糖的問題是某公務機關的錯台糖可以跟負責的人提出國賠那豬農受到影響他沒有能力去舉證請問豬農的損失誰來賠我想豬農的損失他其實最在意的就是說他的國產豬肉不要讓消費者失去信心我覺得這一點一定要更重要那是未來\n603274\t618594\t那如果過去農業部會不會承諾可以來協助豬農去舉證跟界定他們的損失就他們過去這段時間因為這個烏龍事件所造成損害幫豬農來協助未來如果他們採取司法途徑他們至少跟台糖公司一樣可以去舉證\n619875\t644440\t外部客觀的一個損失,農業部可不可以來協助,如果他們請求?對,我想我們會跟我們的養豬業者去研議好相關的一個...承諾會幫助他們嗎?對,我們會幫助...如果養豬協會提出來,農業部願意協助他們來定損跟舉證嗎?後續如果說我們的檢查的確是因為這個事件,是一個很特殊的...因果關係有法院來判定啦,但是舉證跟定損,農業部願意來協助嗎?我們會來協助。\n648721\t671206\t接下來我要請衛福部長其實這件事情我不敢說他是政治牽面人但是賣場陳列的生鮮食材你有沒有去過便利超商買過茶葉蛋有有嘛部長你有吃過嘛你知不知道你前一個買茶葉蛋的人是什麼人不知道你知不知道你後面一個買茶葉蛋的人是什麼人不知道那如果前面一個人的手上很髒東西掉到茶葉蛋你去買茶葉蛋你會不會擔心\n674175\t696604\t當然有這種可能當然有這個可能嘛請問一下你覺得目前在賣場如果包裝好的完整封存的食品過去都曾經被發生過真正的切面人下毒的情況那現在不是包裝完好的食品像茶葉蛋關東煮開架式的讓消費者不定特定的自由取用有沒有可能產生在賣場污染的情況\n697729\t719296\t如果開架的話有可能有可能部長您不太舒服了我就問院長好了那危害控管沒有強制賣場導入你看看我們從原料的生產到加工製造都有強制導入HACCP一共有提供了在市民安全衛生法管理法第8條第二項有超過的有10類\n720436\t749093\t包括餐廳業者他的人員要定時接受健康檢查他們要遵守一定的衛生規範對不對這是我們的法規有規定的那是指專門處理顧客飲食的專業人員特定人員但是在賣場前面的顧客你有辦法要求他洗過手再去夾茶葉蛋嗎沒有,如果是顧客可能沒有辦法嘛對不對所以我們來看一看那是不是從這次事件的教訓如果有人\n750368\t765419\t萬一像千面人那模仿因為我們臺灣的賣場很多熟食是公開隨意顧客取用的只要有一個地方發生問題是不是造成了所有的恐慌對不對千面人當時在日本就是這樣子\n765999\t768640\t我覺得這個部分我們可以再來監控加強也就是說我要提醒一下部長跟院長\n791069\t799966\t今天這個事情已經證明可以大概可以證明說不是豬農在飼料上違法添加也幾乎可以證明食品加工廠跟賣場\n801721\t822498\t施品廠本身他並沒有在這個過程中去污染那有一個可能就是實驗室自己購買的藥品在檢查過程中可能是無意中的污染但是也很難去查個水落石出但是也有人說有可能是在開放式的貨架上特定的產品被下藥我不要說是下毒\n823078\t852078\t他只是要製造恐慌那如果目前我們臺灣的賣場存在有這樣的風險空間院長你可不可以要求衛福部來徹底的檢討我們所有的賣場他們在這些區域的一個安全監控跟行為的管理我想在賣場裡面特別是開架式的像這樣open的那個食物的販賣確實是要加強來管理那這個部分我們可能需要\n852639\t854620\t去年發生毒莓果事件的時候我就要求衛福部\n876018\t894249\t我說對於這些大型的賣場因為他們銷量特別大他們說他們的進口之前都交給檢驗室檢查過了或者說他們信賴出口的時候對方的官方跟我方的官方的抽驗他自己進入賣場後沒有再去做一些必要的化驗他只有說自主管理部長是不是這樣\n895745\t910357\t那你認為現在經過這個事件之後對於這些銷量特別大的大型賣場是不是要刻意他隨時去他的賣場做一些不是自主而是被強制要求要去做必要的巡檢防止他的賣場他的商品被污染被破壞\n911138\t936821\t尤其在開架式很多的便利超商他開架式的飲食區供顧客隨意取用的是不是尤其要加強列入這些大型連鎖公司在他們的連鎖超商當中的管理要規範你可不可以承諾要找時間定出來不是自主規而已要被要求來管理這個還是會有一點困難那要不要去研擬可以來研究看院長他承諾了你覺得什麼時候可以做\n938250\t939513\t我想這一個也需要跟廠商一起來瞭解\n","txt":"請中委員嘉賓質詢。\n我們請今天的壽星徐佳濱委員 啊 鍾佳濱委員主席 外場的委員先進 會席的政府機關所長 官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請院長跟兩位部長學部長跟陳部長 哪兩位部長學部長跟陳部長好的 再次請陳院長跟兩位部長備詢眾委好院長好兩位部長好\n請問院長部長你們過去有沒有參加政論節目的現場有沒有沒有沒有我是常參加啦我倒覺得剛剛似乎委員的詢答好像是在政論節目的現場只是通常在那個時候作為節目主持人也就是現在的院長的位置的人會出來制止啊那我覺得很遺憾的齁剛剛那樣的討論\n無助於事實的澄清而且還錯誤引用在場委員之前的發言我覺得這也不足取啊所以我鄭重的請院長未來可以澄清你當發言陷入這樣的情況的時候可以事實來維持一下秩序可以嗎?謝謝院長好那我們就開始今天的質詢這個天選之樓西部特樓的事件那請問一下一片肉同一個檢體檢驗超過20次數值都不一樣那這合常理嗎?院長您是科學家\n那您覺得通常這種情況之下,正規的實驗室他會怎麼去處理這樣的檢驗結果?正規的實驗室應該有兩個部分。第一個呢,如果這一片座之外呢,還有其他同一批的座應該要來做檢驗。第二個呢,他也可以請求另外的這個專業的這個檢驗機構呢,再協助他來了解為什麼他的這個數值會不一致。\n是因為我也念過國中也念過高中雖然我念的是文組但是我們做實驗課的時候也是有這樣的要求當你做出來實驗數值跟人家不一樣的時候那可以請別人再照方的操作一次看會不會做出這樣的結果對不對好那請問一下往下一頁齁那麼接下來呢請問陳部長齁同批的肉品920件零檢出你們是用什麼樣的標準去找這920件檢體\n同一隻豬,同一批豬,還是同一批梅花肉,還是同一個台堂的養豬場,你們是怎麼做的?我想跟委員說明,大概分兩個部分。第一個部分就是,我們是針對台中市政府所公布的這一批肉的部分,我們馬上\n﹚廣告\n如果有可能的話那有可能會在飼料裡面添加所以我們針對飼料也驗結果也是沒有的這920件驗的結果同一批肉品的批號的肉品加工的肉品對肉品來的同一批豬\n對,是不同批的豬養豬場。對,同一批養豬場。對,同一批養豬場。是。是。是。以目前來講齁,我們所檢測的這些數據的結果都沒檢出。對,是排除飼料添加。排除的飼料添加的問題。對,好。\n那不是臺商的養豬場你有沒有做檢測?我們也有,我們在肉餅市場也檢測了。目前可不可以說經過你們檢測的基本上並沒有豬農在飼料添加,目前你們檢測的?對,目前我們檢測的包括肉餅市場跟臺商的市場都沒有。那這總共累積1567件都沒有檢出瘦肉精?\n那是不是可以還豬農清白?因為我們屏東是養豬大縣,豬農很care這個事情。你覺得有這樣的有沒有辦法還豬農清白?我覺得以我們現在的數據去可以推斷說我們現在目前國產豬的豬肉的飼養都沒有使用這個西部特羅和其他所有豬肉。所以我可以說一個簡單的決定就是還豬農清白。接下來如果不是豬農的問題,\n那從生產再賣出的零檢出、養豬場、屠宰分莊、信工、賣場、台糖的賣場或是那一個國軍的承銷商的陳列品\n那結果這些到台中市政府之前通通是引檢出那你認為這樣是不是也還了臺糖包括賣場包括肉品加工廠的清白表示他們這個過程都沒有去用藥品去污染到這樣的肉品有沒有對因為我們現在的數據顯示臺糖的肉品是我想是絕對沒問題的\n好,所以臺黨也是清白的,中壇也是清白的,那請問院長那關於你一個科學家的結果有一位民眾黨的主席說啊,這個沒人知道這是實驗室污染你覺得他這話可信嗎?我想經過剛才的這樣的一個科學的論證確實就只有臺中市政府的實驗室的一塊肉有那所以他判斷是實驗室污染的可能性但是我個人是覺得說\n目前為止因為他買到這個檢體到檢驗這個階段已經很長現在要收集這個真正的事證已經有困難但是我們不能夠排除有實驗室污染的可能性所以實驗室污染現在恐怕也很難證實雖然不能證實但是有可能\n但是呢臺中市衛生局說這是非科學的說法但是有人不是說科學的說法有人是說從動機論就跑出了剛剛前面委員提到的所謂的政治牽面人所謂的政治牽門表示他不是牽面人啊牽面人是為了真的下毒要去毒死人去勒索對不對那顯然的西普特羅在這樣的含量是毒不死人的他的目的大概也不是透過下毒來恐嚇食品工廠\n他是要製造其他的目的,那有人說這樣是政治簽名人,換言之這個驗出來的西布特羅如果不是實驗室污染,不是被動地被附著到這個殘藥,是有人刻意地放進去的,你覺得有沒有這個可能?\n我想在實驗室的同仁在做實驗的時候大概不會是實驗室的人做的有沒有對如果不是實驗室人做的那有沒有可能是在實驗室送到實驗室之前在賣場的檢體上有人放有沒有這個可能一點點千萬分之一可能有沒有這個可能這個可能要需要看那個賣場的錄影帶的檢體有沒有這就是我的重點了\n好那至少呢在目前為止公務機關在沒有查明這個情況的之下就強制商品下架是不是有產生對於該商品公司一個國家賠償法的賠償責任的問題\n這一件事情確實是造成了台糖很大的損失。損失多少你知道嗎?五千三百多萬。我們看一下,台糖說損失了多少?損失了將超過千萬。那你覺得如果真的是成立國家賠償的要件,的確是公務人員有心或無心的疏失或犯錯,那是不是台糖有可能可以提起國家賠償,要求相關的公務機關負責,有沒有這個可能性?這個我們來...有沒有?\n確實他們有損失這是事實不過現在最重要的那假如證明是公務人員的疏失或過失那可以提出國賠嗎?對那如果確實是有公務人員的疏失的話那台堂至少他可以證明他的損失那請問這些日子以來本月2號台中市長記者會之前農業部長我們毛豬每公斤的價格是93塊5交易投訴是2\n兩萬七千頭。結果開了記者會之後呢,價格掉到八十四塊錢。交易頭數呢降到了兩萬二。請問你認為豬農或養豬產業有沒有損失?\n我想整個的事件一開始是引起了一些消費者對於我們國產豬肉的疑慮的部分那在過年前的部分我們現在的平均的批發價大概是90.8元還維持一定但是在過年後以後開始有一些降低那這個降低的部分一部分的因素是大家的一個恐慌那另外一個部分是因為過年後的一個消費的一個習性的疲弱\n那部長如果直接問你如果朱龍認為說他的豬的銷售損失跟某市政府的記者會有關聯你覺得他這樣的訴求有沒有一點點道理他覺得受到影響我想朱龍一定會做這樣的一個訴求那我們也會隨時跟朱龍去了解就是說他實際的這樣的一個損失是用批發價的方式去處理還是用其他的方式好那我們來看一下那就問題來了\n豬農是完全沒有舉證的能力\n那如果後來證明既不是台糖的問題是某公務機關的錯台糖可以跟負責的人提出國賠那豬農受到影響他沒有能力去舉證請問豬農的損失誰來賠我想豬農的損失他其實最在意的就是說他的國產豬肉不要讓消費者失去信心我覺得這一點一定要更重要那是未來\n那如果過去農業部會不會承諾可以來協助豬農去舉證跟界定他們的損失就他們過去這段時間因為這個烏龍事件所造成損害幫豬農來協助未來如果他們採取司法途徑他們至少跟台糖公司一樣可以去舉證\n外部客觀的一個損失,農業部可不可以來協助,如果他們請求?對,我想我們會跟我們的養豬業者去研議好相關的一個...承諾會幫助他們嗎?對,我們會幫助...如果養豬協會提出來,農業部願意協助他們來定損跟舉證嗎?後續如果說我們的檢查的確是因為這個事件,是一個很特殊的...因果關係有法院來判定啦,但是舉證跟定損,農業部願意來協助嗎?我們會來協助。\n接下來我要請衛福部長其實這件事情我不敢說他是政治牽面人但是賣場陳列的生鮮食材你有沒有去過便利超商買過茶葉蛋有有嘛部長你有吃過嘛你知不知道你前一個買茶葉蛋的人是什麼人不知道你知不知道你後面一個買茶葉蛋的人是什麼人不知道那如果前面一個人的手上很髒東西掉到茶葉蛋你去買茶葉蛋你會不會擔心\n當然有這種可能當然有這個可能嘛請問一下你覺得目前在賣場如果包裝好的完整封存的食品過去都曾經被發生過真正的切面人下毒的情況那現在不是包裝完好的食品像茶葉蛋關東煮開架式的讓消費者不定特定的自由取用有沒有可能產生在賣場污染的情況\n如果開架的話有可能有可能部長您不太舒服了我就問院長好了那危害控管沒有強制賣場導入你看看我們從原料的生產到加工製造都有強制導入HACCP一共有提供了在市民安全衛生法管理法第8條第二項有超過的有10類\n包括餐廳業者他的人員要定時接受健康檢查他們要遵守一定的衛生規範對不對這是我們的法規有規定的那是指專門處理顧客飲食的專業人員特定人員但是在賣場前面的顧客你有辦法要求他洗過手再去夾茶葉蛋嗎沒有,如果是顧客可能沒有辦法嘛對不對所以我們來看一看那是不是從這次事件的教訓如果有人\n萬一像千面人那模仿因為我們臺灣的賣場很多熟食是公開隨意顧客取用的只要有一個地方發生問題是不是造成了所有的恐慌對不對千面人當時在日本就是這樣子\n我覺得這個部分我們可以再來監控加強也就是說我要提醒一下部長跟院長\n今天這個事情已經證明可以大概可以證明說不是豬農在飼料上違法添加也幾乎可以證明食品加工廠跟賣場\n施品廠本身他並沒有在這個過程中去污染那有一個可能就是實驗室自己購買的藥品在檢查過程中可能是無意中的污染但是也很難去查個水落石出但是也有人說有可能是在開放式的貨架上特定的產品被下藥我不要說是下毒\n他只是要製造恐慌那如果目前我們臺灣的賣場存在有這樣的風險空間院長你可不可以要求衛福部來徹底的檢討我們所有的賣場他們在這些區域的一個安全監控跟行為的管理我想在賣場裡面特別是開架式的像這樣open的那個食物的販賣確實是要加強來管理那這個部分我們可能需要\n去年發生毒莓果事件的時候我就要求衛福部\n我說對於這些大型的賣場因為他們銷量特別大他們說他們的進口之前都交給檢驗室檢查過了或者說他們信賴出口的時候對方的官方跟我方的官方的抽驗他自己進入賣場後沒有再去做一些必要的化驗他只有說自主管理部長是不是這樣\n那你認為現在經過這個事件之後對於這些銷量特別大的大型賣場是不是要刻意他隨時去他的賣場做一些不是自主而是被強制要求要去做必要的巡檢防止他的賣場他的商品被污染被破壞\n尤其在開架式很多的便利超商他開架式的飲食區供顧客隨意取用的是不是尤其要加強列入這些大型連鎖公司在他們的連鎖超商當中的管理要規範你可不可以承諾要找時間定出來不是自主規而已要被要求來管理這個還是會有一點困難那要不要去研擬可以來研究看院長他承諾了你覺得什麼時候可以做\n我想這一個也需要跟廠商一起來瞭解\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.092 --> 00:01.492\n請中委員嘉賓質詢。\n\n00:17.846 --> 00:42.185\n我們請今天的壽星徐佳濱委員啊鍾佳濱委員主席外場的委員先進會席的政府機關所長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請院長跟兩位部長學部長跟陳部長哪兩位部長學部長跟陳部長好的再次請陳院長跟兩位部長備詢眾委好院長好兩位部長好\n\n00:47.388 --> 01:10.683\n請問院長部長你們過去有沒有參加政論節目的現場有沒有沒有沒有我是常參加啦我倒覺得剛剛似乎委員的詢答好像是在政論節目的現場只是通常在那個時候作為節目主持人也就是現在的院長的位置的人會出來制止啊那我覺得很遺憾的齁剛剛那樣的討論\n\n01:11.553 --> 01:40.449\n無助於事實的澄清而且還錯誤引用在場委員之前的發言我覺得這也不足取啊所以我鄭重的請院長未來可以澄清你當發言陷入這樣的情況的時候可以事實來維持一下秩序可以嗎?謝謝院長好那我們就開始今天的質詢這個天選之樓西部特樓的事件那請問一下一片肉同一個檢體檢驗超過20次數值都不一樣那這合常理嗎?院長您是科學家\n\n01:41.651 --> 01:58.702\n那您覺得通常這種情況之下,正規的實驗室他會怎麼去處理這樣的檢驗結果?正規的實驗室應該有兩個部分。第一個呢,如果這一片座之外呢,還有其他同一批的座應該要來做檢驗。第二個呢,他也可以請求另外的這個專業的這個檢驗機構呢,再協助他來了解為什麼他的這個數值會不一致。\n\n02:04.065 --> 02:27.092\n是因為我也念過國中也念過高中雖然我念的是文組但是我們做實驗課的時候也是有這樣的要求當你做出來實驗數值跟人家不一樣的時候那可以請別人再照方的操作一次看會不會做出這樣的結果對不對好那請問一下往下一頁齁那麼接下來呢請問陳部長齁同批的肉品920件零檢出你們是用什麼樣的標準去找這920件檢體\n\n02:29.172 --> 02:46.100\n同一隻豬,同一批豬,還是同一批梅花肉,還是同一個台堂的養豬場,你們是怎麼做的?我想跟委員說明,大概分兩個部分。第一個部分就是,我們是針對台中市政府所公布的這一批肉的部分,我們馬上\n\n02:47.120 --> 02:47.140\n﹚廣告\n\n03:12.842 --> 03:27.352\n如果有可能的話那有可能會在飼料裡面添加所以我們針對飼料也驗結果也是沒有的這920件驗的結果同一批肉品的批號的肉品加工的肉品對肉品來的同一批豬\n\n03:28.593 --> 03:34.254\n對,是不同批的豬養豬場。對,同一批養豬場。對,同一批養豬場。是。是。是。以目前來講齁,我們所檢測的這些數據的結果都沒檢出。對,是排除飼料添加。排除的飼料添加的問題。對,好。\n\n03:58.138 --> 04:18.619\n那不是臺商的養豬場你有沒有做檢測?我們也有,我們在肉餅市場也檢測了。目前可不可以說經過你們檢測的基本上並沒有豬農在飼料添加,目前你們檢測的?對,目前我們檢測的包括肉餅市場跟臺商的市場都沒有。那這總共累積1567件都沒有檢出瘦肉精?\n\n04:19.195 --> 04:40.011\n那是不是可以還豬農清白?因為我們屏東是養豬大縣,豬農很care這個事情。你覺得有這樣的有沒有辦法還豬農清白?我覺得以我們現在的數據去可以推斷說我們現在目前國產豬的豬肉的飼養都沒有使用這個西部特羅和其他所有豬肉。所以我可以說一個簡單的決定就是還豬農清白。接下來如果不是豬農的問題,\n\n04:41.272 --> 04:50.840\n那從生產再賣出的零檢出、養豬場、屠宰分莊、信工、賣場、台糖的賣場或是那一個國軍的承銷商的陳列品\n\n04:51.431 --> 05:12.685\n那結果這些到台中市政府之前通通是引檢出那你認為這樣是不是也還了臺糖包括賣場包括肉品加工廠的清白表示他們這個過程都沒有去用藥品去污染到這樣的肉品有沒有對因為我們現在的數據顯示臺糖的肉品是我想是絕對沒問題的\n\n05:13.826 --> 05:41.167\n好,所以臺黨也是清白的,中壇也是清白的,那請問院長那關於你一個科學家的結果有一位民眾黨的主席說啊,這個沒人知道這是實驗室污染你覺得他這話可信嗎?我想經過剛才的這樣的一個科學的論證確實就只有臺中市政府的實驗室的一塊肉有那所以他判斷是實驗室污染的可能性但是我個人是覺得說\n\n05:42.537 --> 05:57.045\n目前為止因為他買到這個檢體到檢驗這個階段已經很長現在要收集這個真正的事證已經有困難但是我們不能夠排除有實驗室污染的可能性所以實驗室污染現在恐怕也很難證實雖然不能證實但是有可能\n\n06:00.467 --> 06:25.388\n但是呢臺中市衛生局說這是非科學的說法但是有人不是說科學的說法有人是說從動機論就跑出了剛剛前面委員提到的所謂的政治牽面人所謂的政治牽門表示他不是牽面人啊牽面人是為了真的下毒要去毒死人去勒索對不對那顯然的西普特羅在這樣的含量是毒不死人的他的目的大概也不是透過下毒來恐嚇食品工廠\n\n06:26.169 --> 06:41.447\n他是要製造其他的目的,那有人說這樣是政治簽名人,換言之這個驗出來的西布特羅如果不是實驗室污染,不是被動地被附著到這個殘藥,是有人刻意地放進去的,你覺得有沒有這個可能?\n\n06:42.318 --> 07:04.384\n我想在實驗室的同仁在做實驗的時候大概不會是實驗室的人做的有沒有對如果不是實驗室人做的那有沒有可能是在實驗室送到實驗室之前在賣場的檢體上有人放有沒有這個可能一點點千萬分之一可能有沒有這個可能這個可能要需要看那個賣場的錄影帶的檢體有沒有這就是我的重點了\n\n07:04.844 --> 07:17.720\n好那至少呢在目前為止公務機關在沒有查明這個情況的之下就強制商品下架是不是有產生對於該商品公司一個國家賠償法的賠償責任的問題\n\n07:20.793 --> 07:47.956\n這一件事情確實是造成了台糖很大的損失。損失多少你知道嗎?五千三百多萬。我們看一下,台糖說損失了多少?損失了將超過千萬。那你覺得如果真的是成立國家賠償的要件,的確是公務人員有心或無心的疏失或犯錯,那是不是台糖有可能可以提起國家賠償,要求相關的公務機關負責,有沒有這個可能性?這個我們來...有沒有?\n\n07:49.303 --> 08:11.708\n確實他們有損失這是事實不過現在最重要的那假如證明是公務人員的疏失或過失那可以提出國賠嗎?對那如果確實是有公務人員的疏失的話那台堂至少他可以證明他的損失那請問這些日子以來本月2號台中市長記者會之前農業部長我們毛豬每公斤的價格是93塊5交易投訴是2\n\n08:15.990 --> 08:25.035\n兩萬七千頭。結果開了記者會之後呢,價格掉到八十四塊錢。交易頭數呢降到了兩萬二。請問你認為豬農或養豬產業有沒有損失?\n\n08:27.813 --> 08:52.356\n我想整個的事件一開始是引起了一些消費者對於我們國產豬肉的疑慮的部分那在過年前的部分我們現在的平均的批發價大概是90.8元還維持一定但是在過年後以後開始有一些降低那這個降低的部分一部分的因素是大家的一個恐慌那另外一個部分是因為過年後的一個消費的一個習性的疲弱\n\n08:53.096 --> 09:15.154\n那部長如果直接問你如果朱龍認為說他的豬的銷售損失跟某市政府的記者會有關聯你覺得他這樣的訴求有沒有一點點道理他覺得受到影響我想朱龍一定會做這樣的一個訴求那我們也會隨時跟朱龍去了解就是說他實際的這樣的一個損失是用批發價的方式去處理還是用其他的方式好那我們來看一下那就問題來了\n\n09:16.135 --> 09:17.196\n豬農是完全沒有舉證的能力\n\n09:41.218 --> 10:01.373\n那如果後來證明既不是台糖的問題是某公務機關的錯台糖可以跟負責的人提出國賠那豬農受到影響他沒有能力去舉證請問豬農的損失誰來賠我想豬農的損失他其實最在意的就是說他的國產豬肉不要讓消費者失去信心我覺得這一點一定要更重要那是未來\n\n10:03.274 --> 10:18.594\n那如果過去農業部會不會承諾可以來協助豬農去舉證跟界定他們的損失就他們過去這段時間因為這個烏龍事件所造成損害幫豬農來協助未來如果他們採取司法途徑他們至少跟台糖公司一樣可以去舉證\n\n10:19.875 --> 10:44.440\n外部客觀的一個損失,農業部可不可以來協助,如果他們請求?對,我想我們會跟我們的養豬業者去研議好相關的一個...承諾會幫助他們嗎?對,我們會幫助...如果養豬協會提出來,農業部願意協助他們來定損跟舉證嗎?後續如果說我們的檢查的確是因為這個事件,是一個很特殊的...因果關係有法院來判定啦,但是舉證跟定損,農業部願意來協助嗎?我們會來協助。\n\n10:48.721 --> 11:11.206\n接下來我要請衛福部長其實這件事情我不敢說他是政治牽面人但是賣場陳列的生鮮食材你有沒有去過便利超商買過茶葉蛋有有嘛部長你有吃過嘛你知不知道你前一個買茶葉蛋的人是什麼人不知道你知不知道你後面一個買茶葉蛋的人是什麼人不知道那如果前面一個人的手上很髒東西掉到茶葉蛋你去買茶葉蛋你會不會擔心\n\n11:14.175 --> 11:36.604\n當然有這種可能當然有這個可能嘛請問一下你覺得目前在賣場如果包裝好的完整封存的食品過去都曾經被發生過真正的切面人下毒的情況那現在不是包裝完好的食品像茶葉蛋關東煮開架式的讓消費者不定特定的自由取用有沒有可能產生在賣場污染的情況\n\n11:37.729 --> 11:59.296\n如果開架的話有可能有可能部長您不太舒服了我就問院長好了那危害控管沒有強制賣場導入你看看我們從原料的生產到加工製造都有強制導入HACCP一共有提供了在市民安全衛生法管理法第8條第二項有超過的有10類\n\n12:00.436 --> 12:29.093\n包括餐廳業者他的人員要定時接受健康檢查他們要遵守一定的衛生規範對不對這是我們的法規有規定的那是指專門處理顧客飲食的專業人員特定人員但是在賣場前面的顧客你有辦法要求他洗過手再去夾茶葉蛋嗎沒有,如果是顧客可能沒有辦法嘛對不對所以我們來看一看那是不是從這次事件的教訓如果有人\n\n12:30.368 --> 12:45.419\n萬一像千面人那模仿因為我們臺灣的賣場很多熟食是公開隨意顧客取用的只要有一個地方發生問題是不是造成了所有的恐慌對不對千面人當時在日本就是這樣子\n\n12:45.999 --> 12:48.640\n我覺得這個部分我們可以再來監控加強也就是說我要提醒一下部長跟院長\n\n13:11.069 --> 13:19.966\n今天這個事情已經證明可以大概可以證明說不是豬農在飼料上違法添加也幾乎可以證明食品加工廠跟賣場\n\n13:21.721 --> 13:42.498\n施品廠本身他並沒有在這個過程中去污染那有一個可能就是實驗室自己購買的藥品在檢查過程中可能是無意中的污染但是也很難去查個水落石出但是也有人說有可能是在開放式的貨架上特定的產品被下藥我不要說是下毒\n\n13:43.078 --> 14:12.078\n他只是要製造恐慌那如果目前我們臺灣的賣場存在有這樣的風險空間院長你可不可以要求衛福部來徹底的檢討我們所有的賣場他們在這些區域的一個安全監控跟行為的管理我想在賣場裡面特別是開架式的像這樣open的那個食物的販賣確實是要加強來管理那這個部分我們可能需要\n\n14:12.639 --> 14:14.620\n去年發生毒莓果事件的時候我就要求衛福部\n\n14:36.018 --> 14:54.249\n我說對於這些大型的賣場因為他們銷量特別大他們說他們的進口之前都交給檢驗室檢查過了或者說他們信賴出口的時候對方的官方跟我方的官方的抽驗他自己進入賣場後沒有再去做一些必要的化驗他只有說自主管理部長是不是這樣\n\n14:55.745 --> 15:10.357\n那你認為現在經過這個事件之後對於這些銷量特別大的大型賣場是不是要刻意他隨時去他的賣場做一些不是自主而是被強制要求要去做必要的巡檢防止他的賣場他的商品被污染被破壞\n\n15:11.138 --> 15:36.821\n尤其在開架式很多的便利超商他開架式的飲食區供顧客隨意取用的是不是尤其要加強列入這些大型連鎖公司在他們的連鎖超商當中的管理要規範你可不可以承諾要找時間定出來不是自主規而已要被要求來管理這個還是會有一點困難那要不要去研擬可以來研究看院長他承諾了你覺得什麼時候可以做\n\n15:38.250 --> 15:39.513\n我想這一個也需要跟廠商一起來瞭解\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.092,"end":1.492,"text":"請中委員嘉賓質詢。"},{"start":17.846,"end":42.185,"text":"我們請今天的壽星徐佳濱委員 啊 鍾佳濱委員主席 外場的委員先進 會席的政府機關所長 官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請院長跟兩位部長學部長跟陳部長 哪兩位部長學部長跟陳部長好的 再次請陳院長跟兩位部長備詢眾委好院長好兩位部長好"},{"start":47.388,"end":70.683,"text":"請問院長部長你們過去有沒有參加政論節目的現場有沒有沒有沒有我是常參加啦我倒覺得剛剛似乎委員的詢答好像是在政論節目的現場只是通常在那個時候作為節目主持人也就是現在的院長的位置的人會出來制止啊那我覺得很遺憾的齁剛剛那樣的討論"},{"start":71.553,"end":100.449,"text":"無助於事實的澄清而且還錯誤引用在場委員之前的發言我覺得這也不足取啊所以我鄭重的請院長未來可以澄清你當發言陷入這樣的情況的時候可以事實來維持一下秩序可以嗎?謝謝院長好那我們就開始今天的質詢這個天選之樓西部特樓的事件那請問一下一片肉同一個檢體檢驗超過20次數值都不一樣那這合常理嗎?院長您是科學家"},{"start":101.651,"end":118.702,"text":"那您覺得通常這種情況之下,正規的實驗室他會怎麼去處理這樣的檢驗結果?正規的實驗室應該有兩個部分。第一個呢,如果這一片座之外呢,還有其他同一批的座應該要來做檢驗。第二個呢,他也可以請求另外的這個專業的這個檢驗機構呢,再協助他來了解為什麼他的這個數值會不一致。"},{"start":124.065,"end":147.092,"text":"是因為我也念過國中也念過高中雖然我念的是文組但是我們做實驗課的時候也是有這樣的要求當你做出來實驗數值跟人家不一樣的時候那可以請別人再照方的操作一次看會不會做出這樣的結果對不對好那請問一下往下一頁齁那麼接下來呢請問陳部長齁同批的肉品920件零檢出你們是用什麼樣的標準去找這920件檢體"},{"start":149.172,"end":166.1,"text":"同一隻豬,同一批豬,還是同一批梅花肉,還是同一個台堂的養豬場,你們是怎麼做的?我想跟委員說明,大概分兩個部分。第一個部分就是,我們是針對台中市政府所公布的這一批肉的部分,我們馬上"},{"start":167.12,"end":167.14,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":192.842,"end":207.352,"text":"如果有可能的話那有可能會在飼料裡面添加所以我們針對飼料也驗結果也是沒有的這920件驗的結果同一批肉品的批號的肉品加工的肉品對肉品來的同一批豬"},{"start":208.593,"end":214.254,"text":"對,是不同批的豬養豬場。對,同一批養豬場。對,同一批養豬場。是。是。是。以目前來講齁,我們所檢測的這些數據的結果都沒檢出。對,是排除飼料添加。排除的飼料添加的問題。對,好。"},{"start":238.138,"end":258.619,"text":"那不是臺商的養豬場你有沒有做檢測?我們也有,我們在肉餅市場也檢測了。目前可不可以說經過你們檢測的基本上並沒有豬農在飼料添加,目前你們檢測的?對,目前我們檢測的包括肉餅市場跟臺商的市場都沒有。那這總共累積1567件都沒有檢出瘦肉精?"},{"start":259.195,"end":280.011,"text":"那是不是可以還豬農清白?因為我們屏東是養豬大縣,豬農很care這個事情。你覺得有這樣的有沒有辦法還豬農清白?我覺得以我們現在的數據去可以推斷說我們現在目前國產豬的豬肉的飼養都沒有使用這個西部特羅和其他所有豬肉。所以我可以說一個簡單的決定就是還豬農清白。接下來如果不是豬農的問題,"},{"start":281.272,"end":290.84,"text":"那從生產再賣出的零檢出、養豬場、屠宰分莊、信工、賣場、台糖的賣場或是那一個國軍的承銷商的陳列品"},{"start":291.431,"end":312.685,"text":"那結果這些到台中市政府之前通通是引檢出那你認為這樣是不是也還了臺糖包括賣場包括肉品加工廠的清白表示他們這個過程都沒有去用藥品去污染到這樣的肉品有沒有對因為我們現在的數據顯示臺糖的肉品是我想是絕對沒問題的"},{"start":313.826,"end":341.167,"text":"好,所以臺黨也是清白的,中壇也是清白的,那請問院長那關於你一個科學家的結果有一位民眾黨的主席說啊,這個沒人知道這是實驗室污染你覺得他這話可信嗎?我想經過剛才的這樣的一個科學的論證確實就只有臺中市政府的實驗室的一塊肉有那所以他判斷是實驗室污染的可能性但是我個人是覺得說"},{"start":342.537,"end":357.045,"text":"目前為止因為他買到這個檢體到檢驗這個階段已經很長現在要收集這個真正的事證已經有困難但是我們不能夠排除有實驗室污染的可能性所以實驗室污染現在恐怕也很難證實雖然不能證實但是有可能"},{"start":360.467,"end":385.388,"text":"但是呢臺中市衛生局說這是非科學的說法但是有人不是說科學的說法有人是說從動機論就跑出了剛剛前面委員提到的所謂的政治牽面人所謂的政治牽門表示他不是牽面人啊牽面人是為了真的下毒要去毒死人去勒索對不對那顯然的西普特羅在這樣的含量是毒不死人的他的目的大概也不是透過下毒來恐嚇食品工廠"},{"start":386.169,"end":401.447,"text":"他是要製造其他的目的,那有人說這樣是政治簽名人,換言之這個驗出來的西布特羅如果不是實驗室污染,不是被動地被附著到這個殘藥,是有人刻意地放進去的,你覺得有沒有這個可能?"},{"start":402.318,"end":424.384,"text":"我想在實驗室的同仁在做實驗的時候大概不會是實驗室的人做的有沒有對如果不是實驗室人做的那有沒有可能是在實驗室送到實驗室之前在賣場的檢體上有人放有沒有這個可能一點點千萬分之一可能有沒有這個可能這個可能要需要看那個賣場的錄影帶的檢體有沒有這就是我的重點了"},{"start":424.844,"end":437.72,"text":"好那至少呢在目前為止公務機關在沒有查明這個情況的之下就強制商品下架是不是有產生對於該商品公司一個國家賠償法的賠償責任的問題"},{"start":440.793,"end":467.956,"text":"這一件事情確實是造成了台糖很大的損失。損失多少你知道嗎?五千三百多萬。我們看一下,台糖說損失了多少?損失了將超過千萬。那你覺得如果真的是成立國家賠償的要件,的確是公務人員有心或無心的疏失或犯錯,那是不是台糖有可能可以提起國家賠償,要求相關的公務機關負責,有沒有這個可能性?這個我們來...有沒有?"},{"start":469.303,"end":491.708,"text":"確實他們有損失這是事實不過現在最重要的那假如證明是公務人員的疏失或過失那可以提出國賠嗎?對那如果確實是有公務人員的疏失的話那台堂至少他可以證明他的損失那請問這些日子以來本月2號台中市長記者會之前農業部長我們毛豬每公斤的價格是93塊5交易投訴是2"},{"start":495.99,"end":505.035,"text":"兩萬七千頭。結果開了記者會之後呢,價格掉到八十四塊錢。交易頭數呢降到了兩萬二。請問你認為豬農或養豬產業有沒有損失?"},{"start":507.813,"end":532.356,"text":"我想整個的事件一開始是引起了一些消費者對於我們國產豬肉的疑慮的部分那在過年前的部分我們現在的平均的批發價大概是90.8元還維持一定但是在過年後以後開始有一些降低那這個降低的部分一部分的因素是大家的一個恐慌那另外一個部分是因為過年後的一個消費的一個習性的疲弱"},{"start":533.096,"end":555.154,"text":"那部長如果直接問你如果朱龍認為說他的豬的銷售損失跟某市政府的記者會有關聯你覺得他這樣的訴求有沒有一點點道理他覺得受到影響我想朱龍一定會做這樣的一個訴求那我們也會隨時跟朱龍去了解就是說他實際的這樣的一個損失是用批發價的方式去處理還是用其他的方式好那我們來看一下那就問題來了"},{"start":556.135,"end":557.196,"text":"豬農是完全沒有舉證的能力"},{"start":581.218,"end":601.373,"text":"那如果後來證明既不是台糖的問題是某公務機關的錯台糖可以跟負責的人提出國賠那豬農受到影響他沒有能力去舉證請問豬農的損失誰來賠我想豬農的損失他其實最在意的就是說他的國產豬肉不要讓消費者失去信心我覺得這一點一定要更重要那是未來"},{"start":603.274,"end":618.594,"text":"那如果過去農業部會不會承諾可以來協助豬農去舉證跟界定他們的損失就他們過去這段時間因為這個烏龍事件所造成損害幫豬農來協助未來如果他們採取司法途徑他們至少跟台糖公司一樣可以去舉證"},{"start":619.875,"end":644.44,"text":"外部客觀的一個損失,農業部可不可以來協助,如果他們請求?對,我想我們會跟我們的養豬業者去研議好相關的一個...承諾會幫助他們嗎?對,我們會幫助...如果養豬協會提出來,農業部願意協助他們來定損跟舉證嗎?後續如果說我們的檢查的確是因為這個事件,是一個很特殊的...因果關係有法院來判定啦,但是舉證跟定損,農業部願意來協助嗎?我們會來協助。"},{"start":648.721,"end":671.206,"text":"接下來我要請衛福部長其實這件事情我不敢說他是政治牽面人但是賣場陳列的生鮮食材你有沒有去過便利超商買過茶葉蛋有有嘛部長你有吃過嘛你知不知道你前一個買茶葉蛋的人是什麼人不知道你知不知道你後面一個買茶葉蛋的人是什麼人不知道那如果前面一個人的手上很髒東西掉到茶葉蛋你去買茶葉蛋你會不會擔心"},{"start":674.175,"end":696.604,"text":"當然有這種可能當然有這個可能嘛請問一下你覺得目前在賣場如果包裝好的完整封存的食品過去都曾經被發生過真正的切面人下毒的情況那現在不是包裝完好的食品像茶葉蛋關東煮開架式的讓消費者不定特定的自由取用有沒有可能產生在賣場污染的情況"},{"start":697.729,"end":719.296,"text":"如果開架的話有可能有可能部長您不太舒服了我就問院長好了那危害控管沒有強制賣場導入你看看我們從原料的生產到加工製造都有強制導入HACCP一共有提供了在市民安全衛生法管理法第8條第二項有超過的有10類"},{"start":720.436,"end":749.093,"text":"包括餐廳業者他的人員要定時接受健康檢查他們要遵守一定的衛生規範對不對這是我們的法規有規定的那是指專門處理顧客飲食的專業人員特定人員但是在賣場前面的顧客你有辦法要求他洗過手再去夾茶葉蛋嗎沒有,如果是顧客可能沒有辦法嘛對不對所以我們來看一看那是不是從這次事件的教訓如果有人"},{"start":750.368,"end":765.419,"text":"萬一像千面人那模仿因為我們臺灣的賣場很多熟食是公開隨意顧客取用的只要有一個地方發生問題是不是造成了所有的恐慌對不對千面人當時在日本就是這樣子"},{"start":765.999,"end":768.64,"text":"我覺得這個部分我們可以再來監控加強也就是說我要提醒一下部長跟院長"},{"start":791.069,"end":799.966,"text":"今天這個事情已經證明可以大概可以證明說不是豬農在飼料上違法添加也幾乎可以證明食品加工廠跟賣場"},{"start":801.721,"end":822.498,"text":"施品廠本身他並沒有在這個過程中去污染那有一個可能就是實驗室自己購買的藥品在檢查過程中可能是無意中的污染但是也很難去查個水落石出但是也有人說有可能是在開放式的貨架上特定的產品被下藥我不要說是下毒"},{"start":823.078,"end":852.078,"text":"他只是要製造恐慌那如果目前我們臺灣的賣場存在有這樣的風險空間院長你可不可以要求衛福部來徹底的檢討我們所有的賣場他們在這些區域的一個安全監控跟行為的管理我想在賣場裡面特別是開架式的像這樣open的那個食物的販賣確實是要加強來管理那這個部分我們可能需要"},{"start":852.639,"end":854.62,"text":"去年發生毒莓果事件的時候我就要求衛福部"},{"start":876.018,"end":894.249,"text":"我說對於這些大型的賣場因為他們銷量特別大他們說他們的進口之前都交給檢驗室檢查過了或者說他們信賴出口的時候對方的官方跟我方的官方的抽驗他自己進入賣場後沒有再去做一些必要的化驗他只有說自主管理部長是不是這樣"},{"start":895.745,"end":910.357,"text":"那你認為現在經過這個事件之後對於這些銷量特別大的大型賣場是不是要刻意他隨時去他的賣場做一些不是自主而是被強制要求要去做必要的巡檢防止他的賣場他的商品被污染被破壞"},{"start":911.138,"end":936.821,"text":"尤其在開架式很多的便利超商他開架式的飲食區供顧客隨意取用的是不是尤其要加強列入這些大型連鎖公司在他們的連鎖超商當中的管理要規範你可不可以承諾要找時間定出來不是自主規而已要被要求來管理這個還是會有一點困難那要不要去研擬可以來研究看院長他承諾了你覺得什麼時候可以做"},{"start":938.25,"end":939.513,"text":"我想這一個也需要跟廠商一起來瞭解"}]}}}}