{"id":149137,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149137","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61d28f3f53a2feb69395e3203607a0dfb347916f9bc661eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6f8d164e007fd7b815ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"15:36:14 - 15:51:38","影片長度":"00:15:24","會議時間":"2024-02-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-23","duration":924,"end_time":"2024-02-23T15:51:38+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-23T15:36:14+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":640,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（15時36分）我請行政院院長。"],["主席：請行政院陳院長答復。"],["陳院長建仁：吳委員，恭喜你！"],["吳委員沛憶：院長好。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["吳委員沛憶：院長，我接續剛剛前面委員的發言，我想本會多數的委員包括我吳沛憶、包括我們會議主席韓國瑜院長在內，我們都不敢自稱我們是食安的專家，但是依照我們的法定職權，我們可不可以站在這裡來質詢我們政府對食安的管理？"],["陳院長建仁：當然可以。"],["吳委員沛憶：當然是可以。"],["陳院長建仁：而且必要。"],["吳委員沛憶：沒有錯，但是我們質詢應該本於什麼呢？我們應該要依法，依照我們對公務機關、實務、公共行政的瞭解、依照公共行政的辦法來提出我們的質疑，目的是在於我們希望可以釐清過程、目的是在於我們希望可以讓我們政府的運作每一次的執行可以更加進步改善。所以剛剛前面有委員提到說，在我們這一次臺中傳出天選之肉，在實驗室裡面有驗出這麼一盒的豬肉含有西布特羅，我們的中央包括農業部、包括衛福部等等的趕快來進行抽驗，同批次抽驗、不同批次抽驗等等我們都去做了；剛剛前面有委員說，即便在同批次肉品的抽驗當中，因為我們只抽驗出3%是未檢出的，那就代表有可能剩下的97%是有問題的。我想要請問院長，基於您過去對於科學背景的瞭解，剛剛這樣子的陳述，符不符合我們對科學調研的理解呢？"],["陳院長建仁：這個當然不符合嘛！因為同批次通常在食安的調查，就是同批次檢驗出來，如果你有一個樣本有，最好照走其他的同一批，但是同批次都沒有的時候，那就是表示是安全的嘛！所以他這樣的推論是不合理的啦！"],["吳委員沛憶：沒有錯，其實過去我在臺北市市議會擔任市議員，按照我對於我們政府機關相關檢驗辦法的瞭解，我們臺北市政府衛生局做食安檢驗的時候，我們向來也是做抽驗，不只是食安，例如我們的公安消防的檢查，也是做抽檢，這個道理其實很簡單，因為我們有科學的依據，按照抽驗的辦法告訴我們，只要我們做抽檢，我們對於結果能夠得出相關的推論。倘若我們認為所有的檢查都要逐科檢查、都要豬肉普篩，任何一個政府機關，不管是中央政府，還是地方政府，都不可能有辦法來運行，我們每天就在檢查就好，我們還需要執法單位嗎？我們還需要行政單位嗎？所以不管是按照科學的理解，還是我們對於行政部門的理解，剛剛上述的陳述方法都是不符合現實的，但是我還是想要來釐清，因為我們對於科學的理解，其實不只是主觀我們想怎麼樣就怎麼樣。我讀過一本書，這本書裡面提到幾句話說，人類擁有能夠探索未知與思辨的頭腦，每當不尋常的事情發生時，我們常會思索發生的原因是什麼，我們要瞭解因果關係，探究問題發生的原因，這是解決問題的先決條件。請問院長，這一本書你有沒有讀過？"],["陳院長建仁：這是我寫的「因果螺旋」。"],["吳委員沛憶：對，這是你寫的「因果螺旋」。"],["陳院長建仁：所以因果關係的判定很重要。"],["吳委員沛憶：對，我相信陳建仁院士跟陳建仁院長對於科學都會相當注重。臺中檢驗出這麼一盒豬肉當然是一件不尋常的事情，今天在本會裡面，很多討論是關於臺中市政府2月2號對外發布這個訊息，這個時間點究竟太快、太急、倉促還是太慢了？我個人認為這個時間點是慢了，因為事實上，根據我們後續得到的資料，臺中市政府第一次檢驗出這一盒豬肉裡面含有微量西布特羅的時間是1月15號，請問1月15號到2月2號，臺中市政府對外發布訊息之前，我們中央有沒有收到任何來自臺中市政府的資訊？有沒有來請我們複驗？有沒有對我們進行通報？"],["薛部長瑞元：在這中間沒有。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們中間完全沒有得到相關資訊。"],["薛部長瑞元：2月2號才接到訊息。"],["吳委員沛憶：但是事實上，根據我們現在食安相關的法規，確實對地方政府驗出這個不該檢驗出的東西時的通報，我們目前沒有明確規範SOP，我認為這一點是我們未來可以精進的。但是我仍然想要請教，因為不同地方政府的機關可能作法也會不同。倘若這件事件是發生在我們中央機關，當你們驗出有這麼一盒豬肉裡面含有西布特羅──根本不該出現的違禁品時，請問你們會怎麼做？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，其實臺中市政府自己的自治條例裡面就有，當你驗出來的時候，24小時之內要先通報，通報之後我們才有48小時可以處理，包括這些有風險產品的下架。"],["吳委員沛憶：倘若1月15號衛福部食藥署收到通報，請問你們會怎麼做？"],["薛部長瑞元：如果是在15號接收到通報的話，第一個，我們就有足夠的時間跟其他縣市採樣其他同批號的東西，再做一次檢驗、double check。"],["吳委員沛憶：倘若1月15號衛福部收到通報，在2月2號之前，我們能不能完成同批次、不同批次相關溯源的追查？有沒有辦法完成？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然可以。"],["吳委員沛憶：是可能完成的。不過還是要提醒部長，你剛剛提到臺中的自治條例裡面有規範，這個我們讓臺中市議會對臺中市政府進行問責。但是我們中央仍然可以把這個 SOP訂定得更加精確，我們希望這一次的個案可以讓我們記取教訓，因為這一次發生在臺中市政府，未來有可能發生在其他地方。"],["薛部長瑞元：對廠商有15天可以要求。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們能夠繼續精進。在這一段時間的查驗當中，我今天在專案報告裡面有看到，目前相關的檢驗一共是885件，全部是零檢出，是嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：這885件能不能再簡述一下包括哪些檢驗？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，我們檢驗大概分為兩個部分，一個部分是畜牧場的豬隻跟飼料，另外一部分是肉品，整個檢出在前端養豬場的豬毛、豬血、豬隻跟飼料，大概有774件，農業部也抽了同一批肉品，其他部分是由衛福部處理，加起來是885件。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以我們到養豬場去驗了。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：養豬場驗了296件未檢出，豬肉品市場我們驗了480件。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，肉品市場是在屠宰階段的時候，我們驗了480件。"],["吳委員沛憶：上市之前的未檢出，同批的肉品驗了4件未檢出，其他送驗肉品13件未檢出，這個還不包括台糖自己的相關檢驗。我們做了這麼多檢驗，總歸一句話，目前為止，除了臺中市實驗室那一盒肉以外，我們有沒有找到另外一塊肉裡面含有西布特羅？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有。"],["吳委員沛憶：目前所有檢驗告訴我們的結果，就是這一個結果。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以目前我們的認定，其實跟臺中市政府盧秀燕市長的認定是雷同的，因為盧市長也說這是單一的個案。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["陳院長建仁：對，是個案。"],["吳委員沛憶：但是不代表我們應該要止步於此，這個個案一樣是引起國人這麼多的關心，所以這個個案的源頭究竟因果關係為何、為什麼會就只有這一盒肉裡面檢驗出西布特羅，接下來我希望我們一定要把它調查清楚，讓國人可以明白，可不可以做到？"],["陳代理部長駿季：可以，我們跟衛福部會一起來努力。"],["吳委員沛憶：整起事件裡面我認為讓我們感到最擔憂的是，食安應該是一個科學問題，但是食安現在被當作是一個政治事件在操作，為什麼我這樣說？我覺得非常的遺憾的是，就連本院很多同仁也進行不正確資訊的傳播。例如林德福委員說臺中這一盒肉不可能是單一個案，那我不知道他的依據來源是什麼，因為目前我們手邊握有的所有根據都告訴我們說這是一個單一個案。當然科學是有可能被推翻才叫做科學嘛，科學就是假設與檢驗，科學是有可能被推翻的，但我們手邊握有多少證據講多少話。截至目前為止，所有的科學依據包括臺中市政府的資料，都告訴我們說這是一個個案。所以我覺得非常的遺憾，我們立委都可以做評論，但不應該散布錯誤的資訊。再來，非常遺憾的，臺中市的羅廷瑋委員直接在網路上直播說這個飼料是有問題的，要去追查飼料廠。請問飼料我們有沒有查？"],["陳代理部長駿季：飼料有查。"],["吳委員沛憶：查驗的結果是什麼？"],["陳代理部長駿季：也都完全沒有，我們查了122件的飼料，飼料完全都沒有。"],["吳委員沛憶：目前我們手邊所有的科學資料也告訴我們，飼料並沒有查出有問題。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：但是卻有立法委員公開的在網路上這樣去說，那會造成民眾錯誤的資訊，造成不必要的恐慌，我覺得非常的遺憾。所以我認為我們都可以來評論、都可以監督，但絕對不能去散播錯誤的訊息。這讓我想到前一陣子Linbay好油的事件，讓我們感到非常的遺憾，Linbay好油這個網路帳號事實上他是一個真人，過去就常常的對本土農業做出不實的指控，把食安拿來做政治操作，造成社會的恐慌，結果後來檢調查下去才發現原來他是一個騙子，甚至進行了自導自演，但是在這個過程當中，對於本土農業、對整個社會的信任感都已經造成了不可逆的傷害。所以我非常希望這次一定要把事情查清楚。","另外，我希望行政院要勇敢的站出來澄清，因為我知道在上一次單一的事件裡面，當時院長也被現在本院的成員羅智強委員告發，還好法院最後釐清了真相，不只是還給你一個公道，是還給真相一個公道。"],["陳院長建仁：對，真相最重要。"],["吳委員沛憶：未裁罰，所以我希望行政院還是要勇敢的出面澄清，不是為你們辯護，而是為事實辯護。事實是什麼我們就應該要清楚的來說明。剛剛我講到這個單一的事件，為什麼我說非常的遺憾，因為我當時也是臺北市議會的成員，當時這個事件有很多錯誤的資訊在社會上流傳，然後有我們的公職人員、政治人物拿來做政治操作，以至於當時的臺北市政府扛不住壓力，讓我們的小學生有半年的時間吃不到蛋，小學生在學校裡面有半年的時間，營養午餐是沒有辦法吃到蛋的，但是事後臺北市政府的查驗結果通通都是合格的，沒有一個查驗不合格。臺北市市長蔣萬安市長，大家都知道跟我們是不同黨派，但是事實不會因為顏色的不同而轉彎。所以我非常希望我們可以把事情查明清楚，並且我們要勇敢的為自己捍衛。所以我也要提醒院長，我剛剛講到這兩件事情，我們對於食安的成果有一項的預算來源是不是來自於前瞻基礎建設預算？"],["陳院長建仁：嗯，對。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們的前瞻預算裡面關於食安建設是多少經費？"],["陳院長建仁：在前瞻的建設，實際上食安的建設裡面是編列了相當多，就是要讓全國各縣市的食安檢驗都能夠越來越精準。"],["吳委員沛憶：前3期不包括未執行的，加總起來大概至少有40億，裡面就包括，也是在我們臺北市的食品藥物國家級實驗大樓，正在興建當中還未完工。我非常地期待它要完工，因為它能夠擴充非常多的功能，包括我們邊境查驗，還有我們檢驗效能的提升等等的這些計畫，都是前瞻基礎建設的挹注，讓我們這些年來能夠逐步提升。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：院長，我說的你認同嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：完全贊同，所以政府實際上在這8年來做很多。"],["吳委員沛憶：但是我們看到，現在口口聲聲說要捍衛食安立場的委員，當我們當年要提出前瞻基礎建設預算的時候，他們在這裡大力地阻擋，甚至不惜丟水球，用這種不理性的方式阻擋前瞻預算，但前瞻預算卻是我們食安這幾年成果很重要的一個基礎。所以我要提醒院長，前瞻基礎建設的亮點你們在去年才上網公告，我覺得動作太慢了，我希望未來不管是謠言的澄清，還是我們工作的成果，你都能夠更用力地向社會宣傳，讓大家能夠瞭解我們的工作成果，可以做到嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們來繼續努力。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員沛憶的質詢。","跟院會報告，我們現在休息10分鐘。","休息（15時51分）","繼續開會（16時3分）"],["主席：報告院會，現在繼續開會。","請王委員育敏質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","陳昭姿","李坤城","洪孟楷","洪申翰","廖偉翔","吳思瑤","徐巧芯","鍾佳濱","謝龍介","吳沛憶","王育敏","何欣純","李彥秀","王定宇","羅智強"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2024-02-23"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00009","1130401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「民進黨政府執政八年臺灣食安問題總檢討」專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1130401_00012"}},"transcript":{"id":"149137","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149137","tool":"pyannote","id":"149137-pyannote"},"job_id":"NTCqfnK5yDp0wtcv","queued_at":"2024-06-02 14:22:55","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-02 14:25:05","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149137"},{"time":"2024-06-02 14:25:06","msg":"downloading https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61d28f3f53a2feb69395e3203607a0dfb347916f9bc661ea945a8247ee1410e405516ffde792dc4e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"},{"time":"2024-06-02 14:25:31","msg":"converting mp4 to wav"},{"time":"2024-06-02 14:25:34","msg":"running pyannote"},{"time":"2024-06-02 14:25:47","msg":"status: 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\"end\": 882.27, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"設\"}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 882.27, \"end\": 882.43, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 882.43, \"end\": 882.55, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 882.55, \"end\": 883.071, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 883.071, \"end\": 883.391, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 883.391, \"end\": 884.372, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 884.372, \"end\": 884.592, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 884.592, \"end\": 884.772, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 884.772, \"end\": 884.952, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"阻\", \"start\": 884.952, \"end\": 885.773, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"擋\"}, {\"word\": \"甚\", \"start\": 885.773, \"end\": 885.913, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"至\", \"start\": 885.913, \"end\": 886.113, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 886.113, \"end\": 886.293, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"惜\", \"start\": 886.293, \"end\": 886.813, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"丟\"}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 886.813, \"end\": 887.034, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"球\", \"start\": 887.034, \"end\": 887.054, \"score\": 0.184}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 888.868, \"end\": 888.948, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 888.948, \"end\": 888.988, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"繼\"}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"努\", \"start\": 888.988, \"end\": 889.048, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 889.048, \"end\": 889.288, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 889.288, \"end\": 889.308, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,079 --> 00:00:10,950\n我請行政院院長請行政院陳院長備詢\n\n2\n00:00:16,158 --> 00:00:42,666\n吳委員恭喜你院長好院長我接續剛剛前面委員的發言我想本會多數的委員包括我吳沛憶包括我們會議主席韓國瑜院長在內我們都不敢自稱我們是食安的專家但是依照我們的法定職權我們可不可以站在這裡來質詢我們政府對食安的管理當然是可以而且必要\n\n3\n00:00:43,322 --> 00:01:05,038\n沒有錯,但是我們質詢應該本於什麼呢?我們應該要依法依照我們對公務機關、實務、公共行政的了解依照公共行政的辦法來提出我們的質疑目的是在於我們希望可以釐清過程目的是在於我們希望可以讓我們政府的運作每一次的執行可以更加的進步改善\n\n4\n00:01:06,079 --> 00:01:29,951\n所以說剛剛前面有委員提到說在我們這一次臺中傳出天選之肉在實驗室裡面有驗出這麼一盒的豬肉含有西部特羅那我們的中央包括農業部包括衛福部等等的趕快來進行抽驗同批次抽驗不同批次抽驗等等我們都去做了剛剛前面有委員說\n\n5\n00:01:31,011 --> 00:01:57,854\n即便在同批次肉品的抽驗當中因為我們只抽驗出3%是沒有未檢出的那就代表有可能剩下的97%那可能是有問題的我想要請問院長基於您過去對於科學背景的了解剛剛這樣子的陳述符不符合我們對科學調研的理解呢?\n\n6\n00:01:58,634 --> 00:02:18,531\n這個當然不符合嘛因為這個同批次通常在食品食安的調查就是同批次檢驗出來如果你有一個樣本有最好照其他的同一批但是同批次都沒有的時候那就是表示是安全的嘛所以他的這樣的推論是不合理的啦\n\n7\n00:02:19,155 --> 00:02:42,180\n沒有錯其實過去我在臺北市議會擔任市議員按照我對於我們政府機關相關的檢驗辦法的了解我們臺北市政府衛生局做食安檢驗的時候我們向來也是做抽驗不只是食安例如說我們的公安消防的檢查也是做抽檢這個道理其實很簡單因為我們有科學的依據\n\n8\n00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:52,633\n按照抽樣的辦法告訴我們只要我們做了抽檢我們能夠對結果能夠得出相關的推論因為倘若我們認為所有的檢查\n\n9\n00:02:54,002 --> 00:03:20,516\n都要竹科檢查都要豬肉普篩這個政府和一個政府機關不管是中央政府還是地方政府都不可能有辦法來運行我們每天就在檢查就好我們還需要執法單位嗎我們還需要行政單位嗎所以呢這個不管是按照科學的理解還是我們對於行政部門的理解剛剛這個上述的陳述方法都是不符合現實的那但是我還是想要來釐清喔\n\n10\n00:03:22,217 --> 00:03:47,575\n因為我們對科學的理解其實不只是主觀我們想怎麼樣就怎麼樣我讀過一本書這本書裡面提到幾句話說人類我們擁有能夠探索未知與思辨的頭腦每當一不尋常的事情發生時我們常會思索發生的原因是什麼我們要了解因果關係探究問題發生的原因\n\n11\n00:03:48,195 --> 00:04:07,897\n是解決問題的先決條件請問院長這一本書你有沒有讀過這是我寫的因果螺旋對這是因果螺旋所以因果關係判定很重要所以我相信陳建仁院士跟陳建仁院長對於科學都會有相當的注重台中檢驗出這麼一盒\n\n12\n00:04:10,097 --> 00:04:10,117\n吳沛憶\n\n13\n00:04:27,278 --> 00:04:54,083\n太慢了我個人認為這個時間點是慢了因為事實上根據我們後續得到的資料台中市政府第一次檢驗出這一盒豬肉裡面含有西部特羅微量的時間是在1月15號請問在1月15號到2月2號台中市政府對外發布訊息之前我們中央有沒有收到任何來自台中市政府的資訊\n\n14\n00:04:56,226 --> 00:05:11,811\n有沒有來請我們做復驗?有沒有來對我們進行通報?我們中間是完全沒有得到相關資訊的。但是事實上根據我們現在食安相關的法規確實對地方政府驗出來\n\n15\n00:05:13,636 --> 00:05:39,348\n這個不該檢驗出的東西的時候的通報我們目前沒有明確規範的SOP所以我認為這一點是我們未來可以去精進的但是我仍然想要請教因為不同的地方政府的機關可能做法也會不同倘若這件事件是發生在我們中央的機關當你們驗出來有這麼一盒的豬肉裡面含有西部特羅根本不該出現的違禁品的時候請問你們會怎麼做\n\n16\n00:05:41,762 --> 00:06:03,124\n跟委員報告,其實台中市政府他自己的自治條例裡面就有,當你驗出來的時候24小時之內要先通報。通報之後的話我們才有48小時可以做處理,包括這些有風險產品的下降。倘若在1月15號我們衛福部食藥署收到通報,請問你們會怎麼做?\n\n17\n00:06:05,458 --> 00:06:21,685\n如果是在15號接受到通報的話,第一個我們就有足夠的時間跟這個其他的縣市去採樣其他同批號的東西來再做一次檢驗,doublecheck。\n\n18\n00:06:23,237 --> 00:06:50,609\n談論一月十五號我們衛福部收到通報在二月二號之前我們能不能夠完成同批次不同批次相關的溯源的追查有沒有辦法完成是可能完成的不過部長還是要提醒你你剛提到說臺中的這個自治條例裡面有規範那這個我們讓臺中市議會去對臺中市政府進行問責但是我們中央我們仍然是可以把這個SOP定定的更加精確因為我們希望我們希望這不只是\n\n19\n00:06:51,249 --> 00:07:15,581\n這一次的個案可以讓我們記取教訓嗎?這一次發生在台中市政府,未來有可能發生在其他地方政府。我想我們能夠繼續來精進。在我們這段時間的查驗當中,我今天在專案報告裡面有看到,我們目前是相關的檢驗一共是885件,那全部是零檢出,是嗎?這885件能不能再簡述一下包括了哪些的檢驗?\n\n20\n00:07:17,903 --> 00:07:45,526\n我跟委員說明就是我們在檢驗的部分大概分為兩個部分一個部分是在畜牧場的豬隻跟飼料的部分那另外一部分是在肉品的部分那整個的一個檢出的部分在前端的養豬場的豬毛豬血豬隻的部分跟飼料的部分大概有大概774件然後因為農業部的部分也抽了同一批的肉品那其他的部分是由衛福部加起來是885的部分\n\n21\n00:07:46,783 --> 00:08:07,865\n好,所以我們到養豬場去驗了嘛。對。驗了沒有?養豬場驗了296件,未檢出。對。豬肉品市場我們驗了480。對,肉品市場是在屠宰階段的時候,我們也驗了480。在上市之前也未檢出。同批的肉品驗了4件,未檢出。其他送驗肉品13件未檢出。這個還不包括台糖相關自己的檢驗。\n\n22\n00:08:08,746 --> 00:08:35,409\n所以我們做了這麼多的檢驗總歸一句話目前為止除了台中市實驗室那一盒肉以外我們有沒有找到另外一塊肉裡面還有希夫特羅沒有目前所有的檢驗告訴我們結果就是這個結果所以我們目前我們的認定其實跟台中市政府盧學仁市長認定是雷同的因為盧市長也說這是一個個案這是一個單一的個案但是不代表我們應該要止步於此這個個案\n\n23\n00:08:37,754 --> 00:08:57,848\n一樣是引起國人這麼多的關心所以這個個案的源頭究竟它的因果關係為何為什麼會就這麼的發生這一盒肉裡面檢驗出西部特羅接下來我希望我們一定要把它追究把它調查清楚讓國人可以明白可不可以做到\n\n24\n00:09:02,025 --> 00:09:22,171\n整體事件裡面我認為讓我們感到最擔憂的是時安應該是一個科學問題但是時安現在被當作是一個政治事件被當作一個政治在操作為什麼這樣子說我覺得非常的遺憾的是就連我們本院裡面很多的同仁\n\n25\n00:09:23,663 --> 00:09:34,157\n也進行不正確資訊的傳播例如說這個林德福委員他說臺中這一盒肉這不可能是單一個案\n\n26\n00:09:36,476 --> 00:10:03,070\n那我不知道他的依據來源是什麼因為目前我們手邊握有所有的根據都告訴我們說這是一個單一幹當然科學是有可能被推翻這還叫做科學嘛科學就是假設與檢驗假設與檢驗科學是有可能被推翻的但我們手邊握有多少證據講多少話截至目前為止所有的科學依據包括台中市政府的資料都告訴我們說這是一個個案\n\n27\n00:10:05,311 --> 00:10:18,726\n所以我覺得非常的遺憾我們都可以立委都可以做評論但不應該散佈錯誤的資訊再來非常遺憾的臺中市的羅廷維委員他直接的在網路上面直播說這個飼料是有問題的要去追查飼料廠請問飼料我們有沒有查\n\n28\n00:10:27,627 --> 00:10:44,386\n事料有查。查驗的結果是什麼?也都完全都沒有。我們查了122件的一個事料。事料完全都沒有。目前我們手邊所有的科學資料也告訴我們事料並沒有查出有問題。但是卻有立法委員、本會成員公開的在網路上這樣子去說。\n\n29\n00:11:02,330 --> 00:11:22,663\n讓我們感到非常的遺憾。林北好友這一個網路賬號事實上他是一個真人。過去就常常的對本土農業做出不實的指控。把食安拿來做政治操作造成社會的恐慌。結果後來檢調查下去發現原來他是一個騙子。\n\n30\n00:11:24,807 --> 00:11:36,063\n甚至進行了自導自演但是這個過程當中對於我們本土農業對整個社會的信任感都已經造成了其實不可逆的傷害所以\n\n31\n00:11:38,063 --> 00:12:07,407\n我非常的希望我們這一次一定要把事情查清楚那另外我希望我們行政院要勇敢的站出來澄清因為我知道在上一次這個單一的事件裡面院長你也被現在本會的成員羅志強委員當時去告發你那還好法院最後釐清了真相不只是還給你一個公道是還給真相一個公道對真相最重要所以我希望我們行政院還是要勇敢的\n\n32\n00:12:08,467 --> 00:12:08,487\n吳沛憶\n\n33\n00:12:28,427 --> 00:12:54,346\n有很多錯誤的資訊在社會上面流傳然後呢非常的遺憾有我們的公職人員我們的政治人物拿來做政治操作以至於當時的台北市政府扛不住壓力讓我們學校裡面我們的小學生有半年的時間是吃不到蛋的我們的小學生在學校裡面有半年的時間營養午餐是沒有辦法吃到蛋餅的\n\n34\n00:12:55,319 --> 00:13:15,976\n但是事後我們統的查驗臺北市政府的查驗通通結果通通都是合格的沒有一個查驗是不合格臺北市政府的市長蔣萬市長大家都知道這跟我們是不同黨派但是事實不會因為顏色的不同\n\n35\n00:13:17,199 --> 00:13:42,512\n而轉彎所以我非常的希望我們可以把事情查明清楚並且我們要勇敢的為自己捍衛那所以呢我也要提醒這個院長如果剛講這兩件事情我們的食安的成果裡面有一項的預算來源是不是來自於我們前瞻基礎建設預算我們的前瞻預算裡面關於食安建設是多少經費\n\n36\n00:13:44,467 --> 00:13:47,349\n前三期包括未執行的加總起來大概是至少有40億\n\n37\n00:14:02,879 --> 00:14:03,240\n院長我說的你認同嗎?\n\n38\n00:14:30,862 --> 00:14:47,054\n但是過去我們看到現在口口聲聲說要捍衛食安立場的委員當我們當年要提出前瞻基礎建設預算的時候他們在這裡大力的阻擋甚至不惜丟水球\n\n39\n00:14:48,868 --> 00:14:49,308\n好,我們來繼續努力。好,謝謝。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7079\t10950\t我請行政院院長請行政院陳院長備詢\n16158\t42666\t吳委員恭喜你院長好 院長我接續剛剛前面委員的發言我想本會多數的委員包括我吳沛憶包括我們會議主席韓國瑜院長在內我們都不敢自稱我們是食安的專家但是依照我們的法定職權我們可不可以站在這裡來質詢我們政府對食安的管理當然是可以而且必要\n43322\t65038\t沒有錯,但是我們質詢應該本於什麼呢?我們應該要依法依照我們對公務機關、實務、公共行政的了解依照公共行政的辦法來提出我們的質疑目的是在於我們希望可以釐清過程目的是在於我們希望可以讓我們政府的運作每一次的執行可以更加的進步改善\n66079\t89951\t所以說剛剛前面有委員提到說在我們這一次臺中傳出天選之肉在實驗室裡面有驗出這麼一盒的豬肉含有西部特羅那我們的中央包括農業部包括衛福部等等的趕快來進行抽驗同批次抽驗不同批次抽驗等等我們都去做了剛剛前面有委員說\n91011\t117854\t即便在同批次肉品的抽驗當中因為我們只抽驗出3%是沒有未檢出的那就代表有可能剩下的97%那可能是有問題的我想要請問院長基於您過去對於科學背景的了解剛剛這樣子的陳述符不符合我們對科學調研的理解呢?\n118634\t138531\t這個當然不符合嘛因為這個同批次通常在食品食安的調查就是同批次檢驗出來如果你有一個樣本有最好照其他的同一批但是同批次都沒有的時候那就是表示是安全的嘛所以他的這樣的推論是不合理的啦\n139155\t162180\t沒有錯其實過去我在臺北市議會擔任市議員按照我對於我們政府機關相關的檢驗辦法的了解我們臺北市政府衛生局做食安檢驗的時候我們向來也是做抽驗不只是食安例如說我們的公安消防的檢查也是做抽檢這個道理其實很簡單因為我們有科學的依據\n163240\t172633\t按照抽樣的辦法告訴我們只要我們做了抽檢我們能夠對結果能夠得出相關的推論因為倘若我們認為所有的檢查\n174002\t200516\t都要竹科檢查都要豬肉普篩這個政府和一個政府機關不管是中央政府還是地方政府都不可能有辦法來運行我們每天就在檢查就好我們還需要執法單位嗎我們還需要行政單位嗎所以呢這個不管是按照科學的理解還是我們對於行政部門的理解剛剛這個上述的陳述方法都是不符合現實的那但是我還是想要來釐清喔\n202217\t227575\t因為我們對科學的理解其實不只是主觀我們想怎麼樣就怎麼樣我讀過一本書這本書裡面提到幾句話說人類我們擁有能夠探索未知與思辨的頭腦每當一不尋常的事情發生時我們常會思索發生的原因是什麼我們要了解因果關係探究問題發生的原因\n228195\t247897\t是解決問題的先決條件請問院長這一本書你有沒有讀過這是我寫的因果螺旋對這是因果螺旋所以因果關係判定很重要所以我相信陳建仁院士跟陳建仁院長對於科學都會有相當的注重台中檢驗出這麼一盒\n250097\t250117\t吳沛憶\n267278\t294083\t太慢了我個人認為這個時間點是慢了因為事實上根據我們後續得到的資料台中市政府第一次檢驗出這一盒豬肉裡面含有西部特羅微量的時間是在1月15號請問在1月15號到2月2號台中市政府對外發布訊息之前我們中央有沒有收到任何來自台中市政府的資訊\n296226\t311811\t有沒有來請我們做復驗?有沒有來對我們進行通報?我們中間是完全沒有得到相關資訊的。但是事實上根據我們現在食安相關的法規確實對地方政府驗出來\n313636\t339348\t這個不該檢驗出的東西的時候的通報我們目前沒有明確規範的SOP所以我認為這一點是我們未來可以去精進的但是我仍然想要請教因為不同的地方政府的機關可能做法也會不同倘若這件事件是發生在我們中央的機關當你們驗出來有這麼一盒的豬肉裡面含有西部特羅根本不該出現的違禁品的時候請問你們會怎麼做\n341762\t363124\t跟委員報告,其實台中市政府他自己的自治條例裡面就有,當你驗出來的時候24小時之內要先通報。通報之後的話我們才有48小時可以做處理,包括這些有風險產品的下降。倘若在1月15號我們衛福部食藥署收到通報,請問你們會怎麼做?\n365458\t381685\t如果是在15號接受到通報的話,第一個我們就有足夠的時間跟這個其他的縣市去採樣其他同批號的東西來再做一次檢驗,double check。\n383237\t410609\t談論一月十五號我們衛福部收到通報在二月二號之前我們能不能夠完成同批次不同批次相關的溯源的追查有沒有辦法完成是可能完成的不過部長還是要提醒你你剛提到說臺中的這個自治條例裡面有規範那這個我們讓臺中市議會去對臺中市政府進行問責但是我們中央我們仍然是可以把這個SOP定定的更加精確因為我們希望我們希望這不只是\n411249\t435581\t這一次的個案可以讓我們記取教訓嗎?這一次發生在台中市政府,未來有可能發生在其他地方政府。我想我們能夠繼續來精進。在我們這段時間的查驗當中,我今天在專案報告裡面有看到,我們目前是相關的檢驗一共是885件,那全部是零檢出,是嗎?這885件能不能再簡述一下包括了哪些的檢驗?\n437903\t465526\t我跟委員說明就是我們在檢驗的部分大概分為兩個部分一個部分是在畜牧場的豬隻跟飼料的部分那另外一部分是在肉品的部分那整個的一個檢出的部分在前端的養豬場的豬毛豬血豬隻的部分跟飼料的部分大概有大概774件然後因為農業部的部分也抽了同一批的肉品那其他的部分是由衛福部加起來是885的部分\n466783\t487865\t好,所以我們到養豬場去驗了嘛。對。 驗了沒有?養豬場驗了296件,未檢出。對。 豬肉品市場我們驗了480。對,肉品市場是在屠宰階段的時候,我們也驗了480。在上市之前也未檢出。同批的肉品驗了4件,未檢出。其他送驗肉品13件未檢出。這個還不包括台糖相關自己的檢驗。\n488746\t515409\t所以我們做了這麼多的檢驗總歸一句話目前為止除了台中市實驗室那一盒肉以外我們有沒有找到另外一塊肉裡面還有希夫特羅沒有目前所有的檢驗告訴我們結果就是這個結果所以我們目前我們的認定其實跟台中市政府盧學仁市長認定是雷同的因為盧市長也說這是一個個案這是一個單一的個案但是不代表我們應該要止步於此這個個案\n517754\t537848\t一樣是引起國人這麼多的關心所以這個個案的源頭究竟它的因果關係為何為什麼會就這麼的發生這一盒肉裡面檢驗出西部特羅接下來我希望我們一定要把它追究把它調查清楚讓國人可以明白可不可以做到\n542025\t562171\t整體事件裡面我認為讓我們感到最擔憂的是時安應該是一個科學問題但是時安現在被當作是一個政治事件被當作一個政治在操作為什麼這樣子說我覺得非常的遺憾的是就連我們本院裡面很多的同仁\n563663\t574157\t也進行不正確資訊的傳播例如說這個林德福委員他說臺中這一盒肉這不可能是單一個案\n576476\t603070\t那我不知道他的依據來源是什麼因為目前我們手邊握有所有的根據都告訴我們說這是一個單一幹當然科學是有可能被推翻這還叫做科學嘛科學就是假設與檢驗假設與檢驗科學是有可能被推翻的但我們手邊握有多少證據講多少話截至目前為止所有的科學依據包括台中市政府的資料都告訴我們說這是一個個案\n605311\t618726\t所以我覺得非常的遺憾我們都可以立委都可以做評論但不應該散佈錯誤的資訊再來非常遺憾的臺中市的羅廷維委員他直接的在網路上面直播說這個飼料是有問題的要去追查飼料廠請問飼料我們有沒有查\n627627\t644386\t事料有查。查驗的結果是什麼?也都完全都沒有。我們查了122件的一個事料。事料完全都沒有。目前我們手邊所有的科學資料也告訴我們事料並沒有查出有問題。但是卻有立法委員、本會成員公開的在網路上這樣子去說。\n645367\t662210\t對﹖\n662330\t682663\t讓我們感到非常的遺憾。林北好友這一個網路賬號事實上他是一個真人。過去就常常的對本土農業做出不實的指控。把食安拿來做政治操作造成社會的恐慌。結果後來檢調查下去發現原來他是一個騙子。\n684807\t696063\t甚至進行了自導自演但是這個過程當中對於我們本土農業對整個社會的信任感都已經造成了其實不可逆的傷害所以\n698063\t727407\t我非常的希望我們這一次一定要把事情查清楚那另外我希望我們行政院要勇敢的站出來澄清因為我知道在上一次這個單一的事件裡面院長你也被現在本會的成員羅志強委員當時去告發你那還好法院最後釐清了真相不只是還給你一個公道是還給真相一個公道對真相最重要所以我希望我們行政院還是要勇敢的\n728467\t728487\t吳沛憶\n748427\t774346\t有很多錯誤的資訊在社會上面流傳然後呢非常的遺憾有我們的公職人員我們的政治人物拿來做政治操作以至於當時的台北市政府扛不住壓力讓我們學校裡面我們的小學生有半年的時間是吃不到蛋的我們的小學生在學校裡面有半年的時間營養午餐是沒有辦法吃到蛋餅的\n775319\t795976\t但是事後我們統的查驗臺北市政府的查驗通通結果通通都是合格的沒有一個查驗是不合格臺北市政府的市長蔣萬市長大家都知道這跟我們是不同黨派但是事實不會因為顏色的不同\n797199\t822512\t而轉彎所以我非常的希望我們可以把事情查明清楚並且我們要勇敢的為自己捍衛那所以呢我也要提醒這個院長如果剛講這兩件事情我們的食安的成果裡面有一項的預算來源是不是來自於我們前瞻基礎建設預算我們的前瞻預算裡面關於食安建設是多少經費\n824467\t827349\t前三期包括未執行的加總起來大概是至少有40億\n842879\t843240\t院長我說的你認同嗎?\n870862\t887054\t但是過去我們看到現在口口聲聲說要捍衛食安立場的委員當我們當年要提出前瞻基礎建設預算的時候他們在這裡大力的阻擋甚至不惜丟水球\n888868\t889308\t好,我們來繼續努力。好,謝謝。\n","txt":"我請行政院院長請行政院陳院長備詢\n吳委員恭喜你院長好 院長我接續剛剛前面委員的發言我想本會多數的委員包括我吳沛憶包括我們會議主席韓國瑜院長在內我們都不敢自稱我們是食安的專家但是依照我們的法定職權我們可不可以站在這裡來質詢我們政府對食安的管理當然是可以而且必要\n沒有錯,但是我們質詢應該本於什麼呢?我們應該要依法依照我們對公務機關、實務、公共行政的了解依照公共行政的辦法來提出我們的質疑目的是在於我們希望可以釐清過程目的是在於我們希望可以讓我們政府的運作每一次的執行可以更加的進步改善\n所以說剛剛前面有委員提到說在我們這一次臺中傳出天選之肉在實驗室裡面有驗出這麼一盒的豬肉含有西部特羅那我們的中央包括農業部包括衛福部等等的趕快來進行抽驗同批次抽驗不同批次抽驗等等我們都去做了剛剛前面有委員說\n即便在同批次肉品的抽驗當中因為我們只抽驗出3%是沒有未檢出的那就代表有可能剩下的97%那可能是有問題的我想要請問院長基於您過去對於科學背景的了解剛剛這樣子的陳述符不符合我們對科學調研的理解呢?\n這個當然不符合嘛因為這個同批次通常在食品食安的調查就是同批次檢驗出來如果你有一個樣本有最好照其他的同一批但是同批次都沒有的時候那就是表示是安全的嘛所以他的這樣的推論是不合理的啦\n沒有錯其實過去我在臺北市議會擔任市議員按照我對於我們政府機關相關的檢驗辦法的了解我們臺北市政府衛生局做食安檢驗的時候我們向來也是做抽驗不只是食安例如說我們的公安消防的檢查也是做抽檢這個道理其實很簡單因為我們有科學的依據\n按照抽樣的辦法告訴我們只要我們做了抽檢我們能夠對結果能夠得出相關的推論因為倘若我們認為所有的檢查\n都要竹科檢查都要豬肉普篩這個政府和一個政府機關不管是中央政府還是地方政府都不可能有辦法來運行我們每天就在檢查就好我們還需要執法單位嗎我們還需要行政單位嗎所以呢這個不管是按照科學的理解還是我們對於行政部門的理解剛剛這個上述的陳述方法都是不符合現實的那但是我還是想要來釐清喔\n因為我們對科學的理解其實不只是主觀我們想怎麼樣就怎麼樣我讀過一本書這本書裡面提到幾句話說人類我們擁有能夠探索未知與思辨的頭腦每當一不尋常的事情發生時我們常會思索發生的原因是什麼我們要了解因果關係探究問題發生的原因\n是解決問題的先決條件請問院長這一本書你有沒有讀過這是我寫的因果螺旋對這是因果螺旋所以因果關係判定很重要所以我相信陳建仁院士跟陳建仁院長對於科學都會有相當的注重台中檢驗出這麼一盒\n吳沛憶\n太慢了我個人認為這個時間點是慢了因為事實上根據我們後續得到的資料台中市政府第一次檢驗出這一盒豬肉裡面含有西部特羅微量的時間是在1月15號請問在1月15號到2月2號台中市政府對外發布訊息之前我們中央有沒有收到任何來自台中市政府的資訊\n有沒有來請我們做復驗?有沒有來對我們進行通報?我們中間是完全沒有得到相關資訊的。但是事實上根據我們現在食安相關的法規確實對地方政府驗出來\n這個不該檢驗出的東西的時候的通報我們目前沒有明確規範的SOP所以我認為這一點是我們未來可以去精進的但是我仍然想要請教因為不同的地方政府的機關可能做法也會不同倘若這件事件是發生在我們中央的機關當你們驗出來有這麼一盒的豬肉裡面含有西部特羅根本不該出現的違禁品的時候請問你們會怎麼做\n跟委員報告,其實台中市政府他自己的自治條例裡面就有,當你驗出來的時候24小時之內要先通報。通報之後的話我們才有48小時可以做處理,包括這些有風險產品的下降。倘若在1月15號我們衛福部食藥署收到通報,請問你們會怎麼做?\n如果是在15號接受到通報的話,第一個我們就有足夠的時間跟這個其他的縣市去採樣其他同批號的東西來再做一次檢驗,double check。\n談論一月十五號我們衛福部收到通報在二月二號之前我們能不能夠完成同批次不同批次相關的溯源的追查有沒有辦法完成是可能完成的不過部長還是要提醒你你剛提到說臺中的這個自治條例裡面有規範那這個我們讓臺中市議會去對臺中市政府進行問責但是我們中央我們仍然是可以把這個SOP定定的更加精確因為我們希望我們希望這不只是\n這一次的個案可以讓我們記取教訓嗎?這一次發生在台中市政府,未來有可能發生在其他地方政府。我想我們能夠繼續來精進。在我們這段時間的查驗當中,我今天在專案報告裡面有看到,我們目前是相關的檢驗一共是885件,那全部是零檢出,是嗎?這885件能不能再簡述一下包括了哪些的檢驗?\n我跟委員說明就是我們在檢驗的部分大概分為兩個部分一個部分是在畜牧場的豬隻跟飼料的部分那另外一部分是在肉品的部分那整個的一個檢出的部分在前端的養豬場的豬毛豬血豬隻的部分跟飼料的部分大概有大概774件然後因為農業部的部分也抽了同一批的肉品那其他的部分是由衛福部加起來是885的部分\n好,所以我們到養豬場去驗了嘛。對。 驗了沒有?養豬場驗了296件,未檢出。對。 豬肉品市場我們驗了480。對,肉品市場是在屠宰階段的時候,我們也驗了480。在上市之前也未檢出。同批的肉品驗了4件,未檢出。其他送驗肉品13件未檢出。這個還不包括台糖相關自己的檢驗。\n所以我們做了這麼多的檢驗總歸一句話目前為止除了台中市實驗室那一盒肉以外我們有沒有找到另外一塊肉裡面還有希夫特羅沒有目前所有的檢驗告訴我們結果就是這個結果所以我們目前我們的認定其實跟台中市政府盧學仁市長認定是雷同的因為盧市長也說這是一個個案這是一個單一的個案但是不代表我們應該要止步於此這個個案\n一樣是引起國人這麼多的關心所以這個個案的源頭究竟它的因果關係為何為什麼會就這麼的發生這一盒肉裡面檢驗出西部特羅接下來我希望我們一定要把它追究把它調查清楚讓國人可以明白可不可以做到\n整體事件裡面我認為讓我們感到最擔憂的是時安應該是一個科學問題但是時安現在被當作是一個政治事件被當作一個政治在操作為什麼這樣子說我覺得非常的遺憾的是就連我們本院裡面很多的同仁\n也進行不正確資訊的傳播例如說這個林德福委員他說臺中這一盒肉這不可能是單一個案\n那我不知道他的依據來源是什麼因為目前我們手邊握有所有的根據都告訴我們說這是一個單一幹當然科學是有可能被推翻這還叫做科學嘛科學就是假設與檢驗假設與檢驗科學是有可能被推翻的但我們手邊握有多少證據講多少話截至目前為止所有的科學依據包括台中市政府的資料都告訴我們說這是一個個案\n所以我覺得非常的遺憾我們都可以立委都可以做評論但不應該散佈錯誤的資訊再來非常遺憾的臺中市的羅廷維委員他直接的在網路上面直播說這個飼料是有問題的要去追查飼料廠請問飼料我們有沒有查\n事料有查。查驗的結果是什麼?也都完全都沒有。我們查了122件的一個事料。事料完全都沒有。目前我們手邊所有的科學資料也告訴我們事料並沒有查出有問題。但是卻有立法委員、本會成員公開的在網路上這樣子去說。\n對﹖\n讓我們感到非常的遺憾。林北好友這一個網路賬號事實上他是一個真人。過去就常常的對本土農業做出不實的指控。把食安拿來做政治操作造成社會的恐慌。結果後來檢調查下去發現原來他是一個騙子。\n甚至進行了自導自演但是這個過程當中對於我們本土農業對整個社會的信任感都已經造成了其實不可逆的傷害所以\n我非常的希望我們這一次一定要把事情查清楚那另外我希望我們行政院要勇敢的站出來澄清因為我知道在上一次這個單一的事件裡面院長你也被現在本會的成員羅志強委員當時去告發你那還好法院最後釐清了真相不只是還給你一個公道是還給真相一個公道對真相最重要所以我希望我們行政院還是要勇敢的\n吳沛憶\n有很多錯誤的資訊在社會上面流傳然後呢非常的遺憾有我們的公職人員我們的政治人物拿來做政治操作以至於當時的台北市政府扛不住壓力讓我們學校裡面我們的小學生有半年的時間是吃不到蛋的我們的小學生在學校裡面有半年的時間營養午餐是沒有辦法吃到蛋餅的\n但是事後我們統的查驗臺北市政府的查驗通通結果通通都是合格的沒有一個查驗是不合格臺北市政府的市長蔣萬市長大家都知道這跟我們是不同黨派但是事實不會因為顏色的不同\n而轉彎所以我非常的希望我們可以把事情查明清楚並且我們要勇敢的為自己捍衛那所以呢我也要提醒這個院長如果剛講這兩件事情我們的食安的成果裡面有一項的預算來源是不是來自於我們前瞻基礎建設預算我們的前瞻預算裡面關於食安建設是多少經費\n前三期包括未執行的加總起來大概是至少有40億\n院長我說的你認同嗎?\n但是過去我們看到現在口口聲聲說要捍衛食安立場的委員當我們當年要提出前瞻基礎建設預算的時候他們在這裡大力的阻擋甚至不惜丟水球\n好,我們來繼續努力。好,謝謝。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.079 --> 00:10.950\n我請行政院院長請行政院陳院長備詢\n\n00:16.158 --> 00:42.666\n吳委員恭喜你院長好院長我接續剛剛前面委員的發言我想本會多數的委員包括我吳沛憶包括我們會議主席韓國瑜院長在內我們都不敢自稱我們是食安的專家但是依照我們的法定職權我們可不可以站在這裡來質詢我們政府對食安的管理當然是可以而且必要\n\n00:43.322 --> 01:05.038\n沒有錯,但是我們質詢應該本於什麼呢?我們應該要依法依照我們對公務機關、實務、公共行政的了解依照公共行政的辦法來提出我們的質疑目的是在於我們希望可以釐清過程目的是在於我們希望可以讓我們政府的運作每一次的執行可以更加的進步改善\n\n01:06.079 --> 01:29.951\n所以說剛剛前面有委員提到說在我們這一次臺中傳出天選之肉在實驗室裡面有驗出這麼一盒的豬肉含有西部特羅那我們的中央包括農業部包括衛福部等等的趕快來進行抽驗同批次抽驗不同批次抽驗等等我們都去做了剛剛前面有委員說\n\n01:31.011 --> 01:57.854\n即便在同批次肉品的抽驗當中因為我們只抽驗出3%是沒有未檢出的那就代表有可能剩下的97%那可能是有問題的我想要請問院長基於您過去對於科學背景的了解剛剛這樣子的陳述符不符合我們對科學調研的理解呢?\n\n01:58.634 --> 02:18.531\n這個當然不符合嘛因為這個同批次通常在食品食安的調查就是同批次檢驗出來如果你有一個樣本有最好照其他的同一批但是同批次都沒有的時候那就是表示是安全的嘛所以他的這樣的推論是不合理的啦\n\n02:19.155 --> 02:42.180\n沒有錯其實過去我在臺北市議會擔任市議員按照我對於我們政府機關相關的檢驗辦法的了解我們臺北市政府衛生局做食安檢驗的時候我們向來也是做抽驗不只是食安例如說我們的公安消防的檢查也是做抽檢這個道理其實很簡單因為我們有科學的依據\n\n02:43.240 --> 02:52.633\n按照抽樣的辦法告訴我們只要我們做了抽檢我們能夠對結果能夠得出相關的推論因為倘若我們認為所有的檢查\n\n02:54.002 --> 03:20.516\n都要竹科檢查都要豬肉普篩這個政府和一個政府機關不管是中央政府還是地方政府都不可能有辦法來運行我們每天就在檢查就好我們還需要執法單位嗎我們還需要行政單位嗎所以呢這個不管是按照科學的理解還是我們對於行政部門的理解剛剛這個上述的陳述方法都是不符合現實的那但是我還是想要來釐清喔\n\n03:22.217 --> 03:47.575\n因為我們對科學的理解其實不只是主觀我們想怎麼樣就怎麼樣我讀過一本書這本書裡面提到幾句話說人類我們擁有能夠探索未知與思辨的頭腦每當一不尋常的事情發生時我們常會思索發生的原因是什麼我們要了解因果關係探究問題發生的原因\n\n03:48.195 --> 04:07.897\n是解決問題的先決條件請問院長這一本書你有沒有讀過這是我寫的因果螺旋對這是因果螺旋所以因果關係判定很重要所以我相信陳建仁院士跟陳建仁院長對於科學都會有相當的注重台中檢驗出這麼一盒\n\n04:10.097 --> 04:10.117\n吳沛憶\n\n04:27.278 --> 04:54.083\n太慢了我個人認為這個時間點是慢了因為事實上根據我們後續得到的資料台中市政府第一次檢驗出這一盒豬肉裡面含有西部特羅微量的時間是在1月15號請問在1月15號到2月2號台中市政府對外發布訊息之前我們中央有沒有收到任何來自台中市政府的資訊\n\n04:56.226 --> 05:11.811\n有沒有來請我們做復驗?有沒有來對我們進行通報?我們中間是完全沒有得到相關資訊的。但是事實上根據我們現在食安相關的法規確實對地方政府驗出來\n\n05:13.636 --> 05:39.348\n這個不該檢驗出的東西的時候的通報我們目前沒有明確規範的SOP所以我認為這一點是我們未來可以去精進的但是我仍然想要請教因為不同的地方政府的機關可能做法也會不同倘若這件事件是發生在我們中央的機關當你們驗出來有這麼一盒的豬肉裡面含有西部特羅根本不該出現的違禁品的時候請問你們會怎麼做\n\n05:41.762 --> 06:03.124\n跟委員報告,其實台中市政府他自己的自治條例裡面就有,當你驗出來的時候24小時之內要先通報。通報之後的話我們才有48小時可以做處理,包括這些有風險產品的下降。倘若在1月15號我們衛福部食藥署收到通報,請問你們會怎麼做?\n\n06:05.458 --> 06:21.685\n如果是在15號接受到通報的話,第一個我們就有足夠的時間跟這個其他的縣市去採樣其他同批號的東西來再做一次檢驗,doublecheck。\n\n06:23.237 --> 06:50.609\n談論一月十五號我們衛福部收到通報在二月二號之前我們能不能夠完成同批次不同批次相關的溯源的追查有沒有辦法完成是可能完成的不過部長還是要提醒你你剛提到說臺中的這個自治條例裡面有規範那這個我們讓臺中市議會去對臺中市政府進行問責但是我們中央我們仍然是可以把這個SOP定定的更加精確因為我們希望我們希望這不只是\n\n06:51.249 --> 07:15.581\n這一次的個案可以讓我們記取教訓嗎?這一次發生在台中市政府,未來有可能發生在其他地方政府。我想我們能夠繼續來精進。在我們這段時間的查驗當中,我今天在專案報告裡面有看到,我們目前是相關的檢驗一共是885件,那全部是零檢出,是嗎?這885件能不能再簡述一下包括了哪些的檢驗?\n\n07:17.903 --> 07:45.526\n我跟委員說明就是我們在檢驗的部分大概分為兩個部分一個部分是在畜牧場的豬隻跟飼料的部分那另外一部分是在肉品的部分那整個的一個檢出的部分在前端的養豬場的豬毛豬血豬隻的部分跟飼料的部分大概有大概774件然後因為農業部的部分也抽了同一批的肉品那其他的部分是由衛福部加起來是885的部分\n\n07:46.783 --> 08:07.865\n好,所以我們到養豬場去驗了嘛。對。驗了沒有?養豬場驗了296件,未檢出。對。豬肉品市場我們驗了480。對,肉品市場是在屠宰階段的時候,我們也驗了480。在上市之前也未檢出。同批的肉品驗了4件,未檢出。其他送驗肉品13件未檢出。這個還不包括台糖相關自己的檢驗。\n\n08:08.746 --> 08:35.409\n所以我們做了這麼多的檢驗總歸一句話目前為止除了台中市實驗室那一盒肉以外我們有沒有找到另外一塊肉裡面還有希夫特羅沒有目前所有的檢驗告訴我們結果就是這個結果所以我們目前我們的認定其實跟台中市政府盧學仁市長認定是雷同的因為盧市長也說這是一個個案這是一個單一的個案但是不代表我們應該要止步於此這個個案\n\n08:37.754 --> 08:57.848\n一樣是引起國人這麼多的關心所以這個個案的源頭究竟它的因果關係為何為什麼會就這麼的發生這一盒肉裡面檢驗出西部特羅接下來我希望我們一定要把它追究把它調查清楚讓國人可以明白可不可以做到\n\n09:02.025 --> 09:22.171\n整體事件裡面我認為讓我們感到最擔憂的是時安應該是一個科學問題但是時安現在被當作是一個政治事件被當作一個政治在操作為什麼這樣子說我覺得非常的遺憾的是就連我們本院裡面很多的同仁\n\n09:23.663 --> 09:34.157\n也進行不正確資訊的傳播例如說這個林德福委員他說臺中這一盒肉這不可能是單一個案\n\n09:36.476 --> 10:03.070\n那我不知道他的依據來源是什麼因為目前我們手邊握有所有的根據都告訴我們說這是一個單一幹當然科學是有可能被推翻這還叫做科學嘛科學就是假設與檢驗假設與檢驗科學是有可能被推翻的但我們手邊握有多少證據講多少話截至目前為止所有的科學依據包括台中市政府的資料都告訴我們說這是一個個案\n\n10:05.311 --> 10:18.726\n所以我覺得非常的遺憾我們都可以立委都可以做評論但不應該散佈錯誤的資訊再來非常遺憾的臺中市的羅廷維委員他直接的在網路上面直播說這個飼料是有問題的要去追查飼料廠請問飼料我們有沒有查\n\n10:27.627 --> 10:44.386\n事料有查。查驗的結果是什麼?也都完全都沒有。我們查了122件的一個事料。事料完全都沒有。目前我們手邊所有的科學資料也告訴我們事料並沒有查出有問題。但是卻有立法委員、本會成員公開的在網路上這樣子去說。\n\n11:02.330 --> 11:22.663\n讓我們感到非常的遺憾。林北好友這一個網路賬號事實上他是一個真人。過去就常常的對本土農業做出不實的指控。把食安拿來做政治操作造成社會的恐慌。結果後來檢調查下去發現原來他是一個騙子。\n\n11:24.807 --> 11:36.063\n甚至進行了自導自演但是這個過程當中對於我們本土農業對整個社會的信任感都已經造成了其實不可逆的傷害所以\n\n11:38.063 --> 12:07.407\n我非常的希望我們這一次一定要把事情查清楚那另外我希望我們行政院要勇敢的站出來澄清因為我知道在上一次這個單一的事件裡面院長你也被現在本會的成員羅志強委員當時去告發你那還好法院最後釐清了真相不只是還給你一個公道是還給真相一個公道對真相最重要所以我希望我們行政院還是要勇敢的\n\n12:08.467 --> 12:08.487\n吳沛憶\n\n12:28.427 --> 12:54.346\n有很多錯誤的資訊在社會上面流傳然後呢非常的遺憾有我們的公職人員我們的政治人物拿來做政治操作以至於當時的台北市政府扛不住壓力讓我們學校裡面我們的小學生有半年的時間是吃不到蛋的我們的小學生在學校裡面有半年的時間營養午餐是沒有辦法吃到蛋餅的\n\n12:55.319 --> 13:15.976\n但是事後我們統的查驗臺北市政府的查驗通通結果通通都是合格的沒有一個查驗是不合格臺北市政府的市長蔣萬市長大家都知道這跟我們是不同黨派但是事實不會因為顏色的不同\n\n13:17.199 --> 13:42.512\n而轉彎所以我非常的希望我們可以把事情查明清楚並且我們要勇敢的為自己捍衛那所以呢我也要提醒這個院長如果剛講這兩件事情我們的食安的成果裡面有一項的預算來源是不是來自於我們前瞻基礎建設預算我們的前瞻預算裡面關於食安建設是多少經費\n\n13:44.467 --> 13:47.349\n前三期包括未執行的加總起來大概是至少有40億\n\n14:02.879 --> 14:03.240\n院長我說的你認同嗎?\n\n14:30.862 --> 14:47.054\n但是過去我們看到現在口口聲聲說要捍衛食安立場的委員當我們當年要提出前瞻基礎建設預算的時候他們在這裡大力的阻擋甚至不惜丟水球\n\n14:48.868 --> 14:49.308\n好,我們來繼續努力。好,謝謝。\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.079,"end":10.95,"text":"我請行政院院長請行政院陳院長備詢"},{"start":16.158,"end":42.666,"text":"吳委員恭喜你院長好 院長我接續剛剛前面委員的發言我想本會多數的委員包括我吳沛憶包括我們會議主席韓國瑜院長在內我們都不敢自稱我們是食安的專家但是依照我們的法定職權我們可不可以站在這裡來質詢我們政府對食安的管理當然是可以而且必要"},{"start":43.322,"end":65.038,"text":"沒有錯,但是我們質詢應該本於什麼呢?我們應該要依法依照我們對公務機關、實務、公共行政的了解依照公共行政的辦法來提出我們的質疑目的是在於我們希望可以釐清過程目的是在於我們希望可以讓我們政府的運作每一次的執行可以更加的進步改善"},{"start":66.079,"end":89.951,"text":"所以說剛剛前面有委員提到說在我們這一次臺中傳出天選之肉在實驗室裡面有驗出這麼一盒的豬肉含有西部特羅那我們的中央包括農業部包括衛福部等等的趕快來進行抽驗同批次抽驗不同批次抽驗等等我們都去做了剛剛前面有委員說"},{"start":91.011,"end":117.854,"text":"即便在同批次肉品的抽驗當中因為我們只抽驗出3%是沒有未檢出的那就代表有可能剩下的97%那可能是有問題的我想要請問院長基於您過去對於科學背景的了解剛剛這樣子的陳述符不符合我們對科學調研的理解呢?"},{"start":118.634,"end":138.531,"text":"這個當然不符合嘛因為這個同批次通常在食品食安的調查就是同批次檢驗出來如果你有一個樣本有最好照其他的同一批但是同批次都沒有的時候那就是表示是安全的嘛所以他的這樣的推論是不合理的啦"},{"start":139.155,"end":162.18,"text":"沒有錯其實過去我在臺北市議會擔任市議員按照我對於我們政府機關相關的檢驗辦法的了解我們臺北市政府衛生局做食安檢驗的時候我們向來也是做抽驗不只是食安例如說我們的公安消防的檢查也是做抽檢這個道理其實很簡單因為我們有科學的依據"},{"start":163.24,"end":172.633,"text":"按照抽樣的辦法告訴我們只要我們做了抽檢我們能夠對結果能夠得出相關的推論因為倘若我們認為所有的檢查"},{"start":174.002,"end":200.516,"text":"都要竹科檢查都要豬肉普篩這個政府和一個政府機關不管是中央政府還是地方政府都不可能有辦法來運行我們每天就在檢查就好我們還需要執法單位嗎我們還需要行政單位嗎所以呢這個不管是按照科學的理解還是我們對於行政部門的理解剛剛這個上述的陳述方法都是不符合現實的那但是我還是想要來釐清喔"},{"start":202.217,"end":227.575,"text":"因為我們對科學的理解其實不只是主觀我們想怎麼樣就怎麼樣我讀過一本書這本書裡面提到幾句話說人類我們擁有能夠探索未知與思辨的頭腦每當一不尋常的事情發生時我們常會思索發生的原因是什麼我們要了解因果關係探究問題發生的原因"},{"start":228.195,"end":247.897,"text":"是解決問題的先決條件請問院長這一本書你有沒有讀過這是我寫的因果螺旋對這是因果螺旋所以因果關係判定很重要所以我相信陳建仁院士跟陳建仁院長對於科學都會有相當的注重台中檢驗出這麼一盒"},{"start":250.097,"end":250.117,"text":"吳沛憶"},{"start":267.278,"end":294.083,"text":"太慢了我個人認為這個時間點是慢了因為事實上根據我們後續得到的資料台中市政府第一次檢驗出這一盒豬肉裡面含有西部特羅微量的時間是在1月15號請問在1月15號到2月2號台中市政府對外發布訊息之前我們中央有沒有收到任何來自台中市政府的資訊"},{"start":296.226,"end":311.811,"text":"有沒有來請我們做復驗?有沒有來對我們進行通報?我們中間是完全沒有得到相關資訊的。但是事實上根據我們現在食安相關的法規確實對地方政府驗出來"},{"start":313.636,"end":339.348,"text":"這個不該檢驗出的東西的時候的通報我們目前沒有明確規範的SOP所以我認為這一點是我們未來可以去精進的但是我仍然想要請教因為不同的地方政府的機關可能做法也會不同倘若這件事件是發生在我們中央的機關當你們驗出來有這麼一盒的豬肉裡面含有西部特羅根本不該出現的違禁品的時候請問你們會怎麼做"},{"start":341.762,"end":363.124,"text":"跟委員報告,其實台中市政府他自己的自治條例裡面就有,當你驗出來的時候24小時之內要先通報。通報之後的話我們才有48小時可以做處理,包括這些有風險產品的下降。倘若在1月15號我們衛福部食藥署收到通報,請問你們會怎麼做?"},{"start":365.458,"end":381.685,"text":"如果是在15號接受到通報的話,第一個我們就有足夠的時間跟這個其他的縣市去採樣其他同批號的東西來再做一次檢驗,double check。"},{"start":383.237,"end":410.609,"text":"談論一月十五號我們衛福部收到通報在二月二號之前我們能不能夠完成同批次不同批次相關的溯源的追查有沒有辦法完成是可能完成的不過部長還是要提醒你你剛提到說臺中的這個自治條例裡面有規範那這個我們讓臺中市議會去對臺中市政府進行問責但是我們中央我們仍然是可以把這個SOP定定的更加精確因為我們希望我們希望這不只是"},{"start":411.249,"end":435.581,"text":"這一次的個案可以讓我們記取教訓嗎?這一次發生在台中市政府,未來有可能發生在其他地方政府。我想我們能夠繼續來精進。在我們這段時間的查驗當中,我今天在專案報告裡面有看到,我們目前是相關的檢驗一共是885件,那全部是零檢出,是嗎?這885件能不能再簡述一下包括了哪些的檢驗?"},{"start":437.903,"end":465.526,"text":"我跟委員說明就是我們在檢驗的部分大概分為兩個部分一個部分是在畜牧場的豬隻跟飼料的部分那另外一部分是在肉品的部分那整個的一個檢出的部分在前端的養豬場的豬毛豬血豬隻的部分跟飼料的部分大概有大概774件然後因為農業部的部分也抽了同一批的肉品那其他的部分是由衛福部加起來是885的部分"},{"start":466.783,"end":487.865,"text":"好,所以我們到養豬場去驗了嘛。對。 驗了沒有?養豬場驗了296件,未檢出。對。 豬肉品市場我們驗了480。對,肉品市場是在屠宰階段的時候,我們也驗了480。在上市之前也未檢出。同批的肉品驗了4件,未檢出。其他送驗肉品13件未檢出。這個還不包括台糖相關自己的檢驗。"},{"start":488.746,"end":515.409,"text":"所以我們做了這麼多的檢驗總歸一句話目前為止除了台中市實驗室那一盒肉以外我們有沒有找到另外一塊肉裡面還有希夫特羅沒有目前所有的檢驗告訴我們結果就是這個結果所以我們目前我們的認定其實跟台中市政府盧學仁市長認定是雷同的因為盧市長也說這是一個個案這是一個單一的個案但是不代表我們應該要止步於此這個個案"},{"start":517.754,"end":537.848,"text":"一樣是引起國人這麼多的關心所以這個個案的源頭究竟它的因果關係為何為什麼會就這麼的發生這一盒肉裡面檢驗出西部特羅接下來我希望我們一定要把它追究把它調查清楚讓國人可以明白可不可以做到"},{"start":542.025,"end":562.171,"text":"整體事件裡面我認為讓我們感到最擔憂的是時安應該是一個科學問題但是時安現在被當作是一個政治事件被當作一個政治在操作為什麼這樣子說我覺得非常的遺憾的是就連我們本院裡面很多的同仁"},{"start":563.663,"end":574.157,"text":"也進行不正確資訊的傳播例如說這個林德福委員他說臺中這一盒肉這不可能是單一個案"},{"start":576.476,"end":603.07,"text":"那我不知道他的依據來源是什麼因為目前我們手邊握有所有的根據都告訴我們說這是一個單一幹當然科學是有可能被推翻這還叫做科學嘛科學就是假設與檢驗假設與檢驗科學是有可能被推翻的但我們手邊握有多少證據講多少話截至目前為止所有的科學依據包括台中市政府的資料都告訴我們說這是一個個案"},{"start":605.311,"end":618.726,"text":"所以我覺得非常的遺憾我們都可以立委都可以做評論但不應該散佈錯誤的資訊再來非常遺憾的臺中市的羅廷維委員他直接的在網路上面直播說這個飼料是有問題的要去追查飼料廠請問飼料我們有沒有查"},{"start":627.627,"end":644.386,"text":"事料有查。查驗的結果是什麼?也都完全都沒有。我們查了122件的一個事料。事料完全都沒有。目前我們手邊所有的科學資料也告訴我們事料並沒有查出有問題。但是卻有立法委員、本會成員公開的在網路上這樣子去說。"},{"start":645.367,"end":662.21,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":662.33,"end":682.663,"text":"讓我們感到非常的遺憾。林北好友這一個網路賬號事實上他是一個真人。過去就常常的對本土農業做出不實的指控。把食安拿來做政治操作造成社會的恐慌。結果後來檢調查下去發現原來他是一個騙子。"},{"start":684.807,"end":696.063,"text":"甚至進行了自導自演但是這個過程當中對於我們本土農業對整個社會的信任感都已經造成了其實不可逆的傷害所以"},{"start":698.063,"end":727.407,"text":"我非常的希望我們這一次一定要把事情查清楚那另外我希望我們行政院要勇敢的站出來澄清因為我知道在上一次這個單一的事件裡面院長你也被現在本會的成員羅志強委員當時去告發你那還好法院最後釐清了真相不只是還給你一個公道是還給真相一個公道對真相最重要所以我希望我們行政院還是要勇敢的"},{"start":728.467,"end":728.487,"text":"吳沛憶"},{"start":748.427,"end":774.346,"text":"有很多錯誤的資訊在社會上面流傳然後呢非常的遺憾有我們的公職人員我們的政治人物拿來做政治操作以至於當時的台北市政府扛不住壓力讓我們學校裡面我們的小學生有半年的時間是吃不到蛋的我們的小學生在學校裡面有半年的時間營養午餐是沒有辦法吃到蛋餅的"},{"start":775.319,"end":795.976,"text":"但是事後我們統的查驗臺北市政府的查驗通通結果通通都是合格的沒有一個查驗是不合格臺北市政府的市長蔣萬市長大家都知道這跟我們是不同黨派但是事實不會因為顏色的不同"},{"start":797.199,"end":822.512,"text":"而轉彎所以我非常的希望我們可以把事情查明清楚並且我們要勇敢的為自己捍衛那所以呢我也要提醒這個院長如果剛講這兩件事情我們的食安的成果裡面有一項的預算來源是不是來自於我們前瞻基礎建設預算我們的前瞻預算裡面關於食安建設是多少經費"},{"start":824.467,"end":827.349,"text":"前三期包括未執行的加總起來大概是至少有40億"},{"start":842.879,"end":843.24,"text":"院長我說的你認同嗎?"},{"start":870.862,"end":887.054,"text":"但是過去我們看到現在口口聲聲說要捍衛食安立場的委員當我們當年要提出前瞻基礎建設預算的時候他們在這裡大力的阻擋甚至不惜丟水球"},{"start":888.868,"end":889.308,"text":"好,我們來繼續努力。好,謝謝。"}]}}}}