{"id":149139,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149139","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61d28f3f53a2feb61ce0de08678f2d5ab347916f9bc661eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6a976b0c0bcf648875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"16:19:25 - 16:35:24","影片長度":"00:15:59","會議時間":"2024-02-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-23","duration":959,"end_time":"2024-02-23T16:35:24+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-23T16:19:25+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":883,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（16時19分）謝謝院長，我們請陳建仁院長，也請我們農業部部長，也請衛生福利部部長。"],["主席：請陳院長及相關部會首長備詢。"],["何委員欣純：院長好。"],["陳院長建仁：何委員好，恭喜你。"],["何委員欣純：院長，我相信，我們不管中央、地方，我們都非常肯定，也非常心疼，也心存感恩，謝謝第一線上食安的所有稽查人員，所以剛剛我聽到院長能夠義正嚴詞地，第一個、為了維護這些稽查人員的尊嚴，我們肯定他，為了維護這些稽查人員，我們感謝他的辛苦，院長的態度是對的，因為我們不能接受有人類似挑撥離間的說法，這是剛剛院長所講的，我們肯定第一線稽查人員的辛苦，對不對？院長。"],["陳院長建仁：對，我們完全肯定他們，也跟他們一起合作。"],["何委員欣純：我們一起合作嘛！因為我們只有一個目標，就是守護國人的食安……"],["陳院長建仁：確實。"],["何委員欣純：所以在肯定第一線稽查人員的時候，我們真的知道他們辛苦，過年的時候還不斷地在加班稽查，但是同樣地，就是為了食安，我們必須要接受科學的驗證，因為院長還有所有的食安稽查人員、所有的專業人員也都知道食安是科學的，我們科學的驗證是大家必須要用專業去面對，所以真的不要用一些情緒性的或者是一些不夠科學、證據不是那麼充分的情況之下，我覺得今天有很多委員的發言都沒有讓院長好好地說清楚，我覺得食安，再講一次，第一個、中央地方只有一個目標，維護國人的食安……"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["何委員欣純：第二個、要維護食安，只要一旦有相關類似食安事件發生的時候，溯源、真相、讓人民安心，這個才是重點嘛！院長，同不同意？"],["陳院長建仁：我完全同意，確實，整個食安，我們中央和地方密切合作，而食安人員相當的辛勞。","這一個事件是臺中市在做決策的時候應該要更加地周延，我早上也曾經講過，因為它檢驗的濃度相當的低，而且只有一個樣本，所以應該要在做決策的時候更謹慎一點來避免恐慌，我舉個例子，像豬農或者是台糖就因此而有很大的損失。"],["何委員欣純：院長，所以我們再來講一下，你剛剛講的，我們食安五環，這是我們2016執政之後勇於面對、積極地去建立這樣的食安五環制度。針對剛剛這個案件，所謂大家在關心的台糖梅花肉事件，就如同剛剛院長講的，臺中市政府到底在這個所謂的從飼養、屠宰、分裝到市場上、市面上每一個環節，院長，你知道臺中市政府在通報的時候有沒有告訴中央這些它都有去檢驗過嗎？你知道嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有。"],["何委員欣純：沒有，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["何委員欣純：他通報中央的時候也沒有交代這整個過程，而且臺中市政府在2月2日公布的時候也沒有相關這樣子的資訊讓國人知道，對不對？院長。"],["陳院長建仁：對，確實，當時只是公布台糖的一塊豬肉驗出來，就只有這樣，沒有任何的查核啦！"],["何委員欣純：沒有任何查核，所以今天我們事實上應該給院長時間，而且我看院長從早上到現在不斷地在告訴國人、不斷地在告訴各位委員，我們中央一旦知道，2月2日收到通報之後，我們趕快去溯源，我們去驗飼料，飼料那邊沒有；我們也去驗屠宰、分裝有沒有，也說沒有；甚至我們要求和各地方政府聯手稽查，台糖這個同批的肉品裡面，我們抽樣檢查到現在，依剛剛我們收到的報告是八百多件將近900件是零檢出的，對不對？院長。"],["陳院長建仁：對，完全檢不出來，沒有檢到。"],["何委員欣純：所以我就要請教院長，這個就是社會的質疑嘛！臺中市政府1月15日抽檢，2月2日公布，而這中間半個多月（二個禮拜）的時間，剛剛我們聽到院長說中央不知道臺中市政府到底有沒有去溯源，譬如去抽驗飼料，譬如去看這個屠宰、分裝的場域，有沒有再去市面上抽台糖這一個梅花肉同批的肉品，好像到目前為止我們都沒有看到臺中市政府有交代，這半個多月的時間，院長，你覺得第一個，臺中市政府沒有讓台糖申請複驗這個程序；第二個，也沒讓中央知道它相關的，也就是說從溯源的相關複驗的檢驗程序，它也都沒有清楚交代，院長，這件事給我們什麼啟示？我們中央、地方應該還要怎麼精進，讓食安能夠更安全、更讓人民放心？"],["陳院長建仁：我想在這整個的過程當中，我們可以發現在臺中市政府這個檢驗為什麼會拖這麼多時間呢？說實在話，因為它只有採了一個樣本，那個樣本檢驗出來以後，它發現在前面那一段有西布特羅，它後來又把那一塊肉再切一塊再來做，然後又發現。實際上來來去去都是只針對一塊肉在那邊做檢驗，沒有去想到同一批的豬肉也需要再去採檢，這個檢驗出來的濃度很低的時候，他們也沒有再尋求更多互相複驗的部分。所以未來在整個程序當中，我剛才也答應吳思瑤委員，我們中央跟地方一起再合作，怎麼樣把檢驗過程的SOP做得更完整一點，讓地方政府也知道在公布任何事實之前，特別是很低劑量的時候，應該要做到什麼程度，也應該跟廠商這邊要有所瞭解以後才來做公布，免得引起不必要的恐慌，導致……"],["何委員欣純：院長，我覺得要更精準地說，在我們整個食安相關法規或者是實驗抽樣相關的規範裡面……"],["陳院長建仁：SOP。"],["何委員欣純：有關SOP，我們中央和地方應該要好好坐下來檢討面對。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["何委員欣純：如何讓它精進，因為不希望有下一次同樣的事情來發生。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["何委員欣純：但是這個精進是為了讓國人安心跟放心，也為了要維護其他受影響的譬如說豬農、譬如說肉品市場相關的產業，我們也是為了要維護他們的權益。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["何委員欣純：我覺得這個是要方方面面，真的是要仔仔細細的，中央、地方大家要聯手，這個不是在搶功，也不是在說食安有英雄主義。食安沒有英雄主義，食安只有團隊的精神，大家一起合作為國人把關。院長，你同不同意？"],["陳院長建仁：對，完全同意，我們要團結一心，中央、地方一起合作，還有公私一定要協力，這樣才能夠把食安的部分做到最好。"],["何委員欣純：所以院長，如果以現在看到目前所有顯現的證據，還有你們抽驗，包括各地方政府抽驗檢查的結果，都是零檢出的情況之下，我記得院長在2月20號有說臺中的「天選之肉」，這個個案是一個單純的個案，盧市長也說這是一個單純的個案，院長，你覺得這是一個怎樣的單純法？"],["陳院長建仁：單純的意思就是說只有一塊豬肉，到目前為止只有一塊豬肉檢驗出來有西布特羅，而且是只有在臺中市這裡檢驗得到，這個是單一個案，也就是說，其他的豬肉都沒有受到影響，所以民眾可以放心地食用。我相信臺中市政府也找不到任何的事證要去說這不是單一事件，如果是單一事件就很重要了，為什麼這個單一事件會發生在臺中市政府的檢驗室裡面？所以我們需要去瞭解發生在臺中市政府檢驗室裡面的原因，這也就是為什麼我們的專家委員會特別針對這個實驗室，因為是在這個實驗室裡面檢驗到，去看看不同的實驗步驟、操作的情況……"],["何委員欣純：就是哪個環節出錯。"],["陳院長建仁：對，是在哪一個環節出錯，因為其他的實驗室都驗不出來，就只有它的實驗室驗得出來，而且那個實驗室又剛好有西布特羅的成分在，所以這個本來就是食安，又為了要精進檢驗的方法、操作的步驟，然後要所有的複驗的情況都能夠做得很好，所以才會去做這個實驗室的調查。我覺得既然臺中市政府認為是單一的事件，這個單一事件是在實驗室，它也應該再針對實驗室做更精確的瞭解。"],["何委員欣純：它也應該要針對實驗室裡面、在實驗的過程裡面是不是有哪個環節出錯，臺中市政府也必須對這件事情給個交代，就如同我剛剛一開始問院長的，其實1月15號到2月2號這中間，即使那一塊肉在那一個實驗室，不管是檢驗了6次、7次、10次、22次，雖然檢驗出是有微量的劑量在，但是我們其他的實驗室或者是同批肉品在其他縣市統統都沒有檢出，所以臺中市也必須清楚地給國人一個真相嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：為什麼它檢得出來。"],["何委員欣純：為什麼，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對，為什麼它檢出。"],["何委員欣純：而且我覺得我可能要再提醒中央，剛剛有其他委員一直在指稱國防部在臺中福利站的同批肉品都已經賣出了，好像那些賣出的就已經流入市面，院長、部長都在這裡，但是同批肉品賣出的那一批肉品不代表就是跟受到檢驗的實驗室那一盒梅花豬肉片是同一批肉品，因為我們有溯源制度，事實上是要根據盒上的溯源QR Code，才能夠知道跟受檢驗有微量西布特羅的這一盒肉同肉品的肉品在哪裡，其實是要透過溯源系統，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對，要從溯源系統才知道。"],["何委員欣純：所以我覺得這個要講清楚，不然很多人或是一般人不懂的話，就會被似是而非而混淆了，所以農業部部長及經濟部部長知道我在說的邏輯是什麼，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["何委員欣純：你可不可以再清楚說一下？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想特別說明一下，臺中市政府所取得的這40個樣品，它是同一天在不同地區去取樣，針對同一批的部分大概只有兩個，一個是梅花肉、一個是小排的部分，所以它檢測出來西布特羅的梅花肉樣品就是那一盒那一塊肉，後續它做檢驗的時候都是在這一塊肉裡面重複去做這些相關的檢測。基本上在一個比較正常的檢測邏輯上面來看，如果它的檢測量是非常低的時候，應該去尋求前後批或是透過履歷追溯其他不同的同品項產品再去做確認，這樣的話會是比較嚴謹的。"],["何委員欣純：比較嚴謹又完整，是不是？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["何委員欣純：而且最後、最後才能下結論來確認，對不對？甚至在通報中央的時候，也必須跟中央聯手再確認、再確認、再確認，也許是透過不同的實驗室同樣檢驗的SOP，精準地得到一個結果再來公布，是不是才是比較嚴謹的作法？"],["陳院長建仁：對，我們未來可能還是要跟地方合作，把這個 SOP建立好，像委員所建議的，如果他們檢驗出什麼東西的話也來通報中央，中央也來幫忙做double check或者更完整地把這個資料呈現出來。"],["何委員欣純：我再請問院長，我剛剛講1月15日到2月2日，他們兩個禮拜自己在那裡做確認，沒有通報中央，我們在相關法規的SOP上面有沒有其他的規範，或是以後可以精進有更嚴謹的規範？我們也許可以怎麼來協助地方，或者是讓抽驗的結果能夠精準再來公布？"],["陳院長建仁：目前是沒有完整的規範，所以我們會在這個部分像委員所建議的，在實驗室操作準則以及通報、複驗的部分，我們會再來精進。"],["何委員欣純：好。所以我再提醒一次，很多委員拿了所謂已經流入市面的那些幾千包肉品可能就是破口，我覺得行政院、中央基於科學依據要講清楚，一定要講清楚，不要造成民心的不安、恐慌。"],["陳院長建仁：好。委員，我剛才講的時候有一點點講得比較大聲一點，實際上，我們所有食品的抽樣，只要樣本數大於30的時候，它就具有代表性，一般食安檢查的時候就用抽樣來檢查，沒有一個食安檢查是要做百分之百的，這是不合科學根據的，也不合統計學理論根據的。"],["何委員欣純：所以院長，我覺得面對任何問題的時候，我們要用簡單直白讓人家聽得懂的話語來解釋，像剛剛我們的一番討論，我覺得就會讓人家更清楚地明白中央是有誠意，而且中央是負責任地在維護國人的食安，對不對？","最後10秒，我只有兩件事。今天受影響的台糖是國營事業，如果換作其他的私人民間企業可能就撐不住了，這件事情我覺得應該要研議用什麼樣的方式來因應；第二個，食安的原則，越早溯源越能夠安民心，所以希望我們在檢討相關機制的時候，能夠越早溯源、越早釐清真相，讓人民能夠更安心，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們會來繼續努力。"],["何委員欣純：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝何委員欣純的質詢。","接下來我們請登記第13號李委員彥秀質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","陳昭姿","李坤城","洪孟楷","洪申翰","廖偉翔","吳思瑤","徐巧芯","鍾佳濱","謝龍介","吳沛憶","王育敏","何欣純","李彥秀","王定宇","羅智強"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2024-02-23"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00009","1130401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「民進黨政府執政八年臺灣食安問題總檢討」專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1130401_00012"}},"transcript":{"id":"149139","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149139","tool":"pyannote","id":"149139-pyannote"},"job_id":"MLCxlEMxiaHmSad1","queued_at":"2024-06-02 14:22:51","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-02 14:22:51","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149139"},{"time":"2024-06-02 14:22:51","msg":"downloading https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61d28f3f53a2feb61ce0de08678f2d5ab347916f9bc661ea945a8247ee1410e4e36a7e1fe41ef3ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"},{"time":"2024-06-02 14:23:18","msg":"converting mp4 to wav"},{"time":"2024-06-02 14:23:20","msg":"running pyannote"},{"time":"2024-06-02 14:23:34","msg":"status: 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0.667}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 46.792, \"end\": 46.812, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 46.812, \"end\": 46.832, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"肯\", \"start\": 46.832, \"end\": 46.852, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 46.852, \"end\": 46.872, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 46.872, \"end\": 46.892, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 46.892, \"end\": 46.912, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 46.912, \"end\": 46.932, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 46.932, \"end\": 47.072, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 47.072, \"end\": 47.212, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 47.212, \"end\": 47.632, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 47.632, \"end\": 47.752, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 47.752, \"end\": 47.772, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"。\"}]}, {\"start\": 70.933, \"end\": 93.083, 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{\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 500.33, \"end\": 500.991, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"臺\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 500.991, \"end\": 501.151, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 501.151, \"end\": 501.331, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 501.331, \"end\": 501.951, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"選\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 501.951, \"end\": 502.151, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 502.151, \"end\": 502.452, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 502.452, \"end\": 502.692, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 502.692, \"end\": 502.792, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 502.792, \"end\": 502.932, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"純\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 502.932, \"end\": 503.012, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 503.012, \"end\": 503.152, \"score\": 0.856}, 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\"end\": 682.588, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 697.876, \"end\": 702.237, \"text\": \"我想特別說明一下臺東施政我所取的這40個樣品他是在同一天在不同的地區去取樣\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 697.876, \"end\": 697.996, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 697.996, \"end\": 698.196, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"特\", \"start\": 698.196, \"end\": 698.636, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"別\", \"start\": 698.636, \"end\": 698.876, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 698.876, \"end\": 699.216, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 699.216, \"end\": 699.296, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 699.296, \"end\": 699.356, \"score\": 0.651}, {\"word\": \"臺\"}, {\"word\": \"東\"}, {\"word\": \"施\", \"start\": 699.356, \"end\": 699.697, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 699.697, \"end\": 699.877, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 699.877, \"end\": 700.017, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 700.017, \"end\": 700.197, 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\"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,481 --> 00:00:24,535\n謝謝院長。我們請陳建仁院長,也請我們農業部部長,也請衛生福利部部長。請陳院長及相關部會所長備選。院長好。會員好。恭喜你。\n\n2\n00:00:26,054 --> 00:00:45,391\n我相信我們不管中央地方我們都非常肯定也非常心疼也心存感恩謝謝第一線上食安的所有的稽查人員所以剛剛我聽到院長能夠義正嚴實的\n\n3\n00:00:46,732 --> 00:00:47,772\n我們完全肯定他們,也跟他們一起合作。\n\n4\n00:01:10,933 --> 00:01:33,083\n我們一起合作嘛因為我們只有一個目標就是守護國人的食安所以在肯定第一線的稽查人員的時候我們真的知道他們辛苦過年的時候還不斷的在加班稽查但是同樣的就是為了食安我們必須要接受科學的驗證\n\n5\n00:01:34,304 --> 00:01:43,319\n因為院長還有所有的食安、稽查人員所有的專業人員也都知道食安是科學的\n\n6\n00:01:44,144 --> 00:02:11,416\n我們科學的驗證是大家必須要有用專業去面對所以真的不要用一些情緒性的或者是一些不夠科學證據不是那麼充分的情況之下我覺得今天有很多的委員的一個發言都沒有讓院長好好的說清楚我覺得實安再講一次第一個中央地方只有一個目標維護國人的實安\n\n7\n00:02:13,357 --> 00:02:36,087\n第二個要維護食安只要一旦有相關類似食安事件的發生的時候溯源真相讓人民安心這個才是重點嘛院長同不同意我完全同意確實這個整個食安我們中央跟地方密切合作而食安人員相當的辛勞那這一個事件是台中市在做決策的時候\n\n8\n00:02:38,269 --> 00:02:53,642\n我剛才早上也曾經講過因為他檢驗的濃度相當的低而且只有一個樣本所以應該要在做決策的時候應該更謹慎一點來避免恐慌舉個例子像豬籠或者是台糖就因此而有很大的損失\n\n9\n00:02:53,882 --> 00:03:19,053\n所以院長我們再來講一下嘛你剛剛講的我們食安五環這是我們2016執政之後勇於面對積極的去建立這樣的食安五環的一個制度好那針對剛剛這個案件所謂大家在關心台台梅花肉事件就如同剛剛院長你講的嘛台中市政府到底他檢驗了之後他在這個所謂的從飼養\n\n10\n00:03:21,203 --> 00:03:49,628\n土宅分裝到市場上市面上這每一個環節院長你知道臺中市政府在通報的時候有沒有告訴中央說這些他都有去檢驗過嗎?沒有嗎?他通報中央的時候也沒有交代這整個過程而且臺中市政府在2月2號公布的時候也沒有相關這樣子的資訊讓國人知道對不對院長?\n\n11\n00:03:51,871 --> 00:03:56,044\n對確實當時只是公布說臺堂的一塊豬肉驗出來就只有這樣\n\n12\n00:03:57,604 --> 00:04:22,023\n沒有任何的查核沒有任何查核所以今天我們事實上應該給院長時間而且我看院長從早上到現在不斷的在告訴國人不斷的在告訴各位委員說我們中央一旦知道2月2號收到通報之後我們趕快去溯源我們去驗飼料飼料那邊沒有我們也去驗屠宰分莊有沒有也說沒有\n\n13\n00:04:22,403 --> 00:04:41,976\n那甚至呢我們要求跟各地方政府聯手稽查我們希望臺堂這個同批的肉品裡面我們抽樣的檢查到現在剛剛我們收到的報告是800多件將近900件是零檢出的對不對院長對完全檢不出來\n\n14\n00:04:42,998 --> 00:05:04,154\n所以我就要請教院長這個就是社會的質疑嘛為什麼臺中市政府1月15號抽檢2月2號公布而這中間半個多月兩個禮拜的時間剛剛我們聽到院長說中央不知道臺中市政府到底有沒有去溯源比如說去\n\n15\n00:05:04,754 --> 00:05:07,355\n臺中市政府有交代那這半個多月的時間院長你覺得我們第一個\n\n16\n00:05:28,586 --> 00:05:52,166\n臺中市政府沒有讓臺堂申請復驗這個程序。第二個也沒讓中央知道那他相關復驗的就是說他從溯源的這個相關復驗的檢驗程序他也都沒有清楚交代那院長這件事給我們什麼啟示我們中央地方應該還要怎麼精進讓食安能夠更安全更讓人民放心\n\n17\n00:05:52,346 --> 00:05:58,497\n我想在這整個的過程當中我們可以發現在臺中市政府這個檢驗他為什麼會拖這麼多時間呢?說實在話他因為他只有採了一個樣品\n\n18\n00:06:03,175 --> 00:06:31,228\n那樣品檢驗出來以後他發現有西部特羅在前面那一段然後他就後來又把那一塊肉再切一塊然後再來做然後又發現那實際上來來去去都是只針對著一塊肉在那邊做檢驗那沒有去想到說同一批的這個豬肉也需要再去採檢那這個檢驗出來的濃度很低的時候他們也沒有去再尋求更多的這一個\n\n19\n00:06:32,870 --> 00:06:33,010\n﹚主席\n\n20\n00:06:49,309 --> 00:06:50,430\n議員長我覺得要更精準的說而是說\n\n21\n00:07:04,885 --> 00:07:19,776\n在我們整個實案的相關的法規或者是實驗抽樣的相關的規範裡面SOP我們中央地方應該要好好的來坐下來檢討面對如何讓它精進因為我不希望有下一次同樣的事情來發生\n\n22\n00:07:20,797 --> 00:07:48,845\n但是呢這個精進是為了讓國人安心跟放心也為了要維護其他受影響的比如說豬農比如說肉品市場相關的產業我們也是為了要維護他們的這個權益我覺得這個是要方方面面真的是要仔仔細細的中央地方大家要聯手這個不是在搶攻這個也不是在說食安有英雄主義食安沒有英雄主義\n\n23\n00:07:49,605 --> 00:08:03,961\n施安只有團隊的精神,大家一起合作為國人把關,院長同不同意?完全同意,我們要團結一心,中央地方一起合作,還有公司一定要協力,那這樣才能夠把這個施安的部分做到最好。\n\n24\n00:08:04,482 --> 00:08:24,613\n所以院長那如果現在以現在目前看到目前還有所有顯現的這個證據還有你們抽驗包括各地方政府都抽驗檢查的結果都是零檢出的情況之下我記得院長在2月20號有說臺中的天選之後這個個案是一個單純的一個個案那盧市長也說這是一個單純的個案\n\n25\n00:08:34,130 --> 00:08:43,254\n單純的意思就是說只有一塊豬肉到目前為止只有一塊豬肉檢驗出來有西部特羅而且是只有在台中市這裡檢驗的到那這個是單一個案\n\n26\n00:08:46,676 --> 00:09:13,828\n也就是說其他的豬肉都沒有受到影響所以民眾可以放心的使用那我相信臺中市政府也找不到任何的市政要去說這不是單一事件因為他如果是單一事件就很重要了為什麼這個單一事件會發生在臺中市的市政府的檢驗室裡面所以我們需要去了解發生在臺中市政府的檢驗室裡面的原因這也就是為什麼我們的專家委員會\n\n27\n00:09:36,186 --> 00:09:36,426\n﹚何欣純\n\n28\n00:09:57,779 --> 00:09:59,179\n更精確的這個瞭解。\n\n29\n00:10:22,646 --> 00:10:38,171\n雖然檢驗出是有那個微量的劑量在但是呢我們其他的實驗室或者是同批的肉品通通在其他縣市也都沒有檢出那所以台中市也必須清楚的給國人一個\n\n30\n00:10:39,111 --> 00:10:58,889\n為什麼他剪得出來嗎?為什麼他剪得出來?而且我覺得可能我要再提醒我們中央剛剛有其他委員一直在指稱國防部在那個臺中福利站那個同批的這個肉品都已經賣出了好像說那些賣出了就已經流入市面但是呢院長\n\n31\n00:11:00,390 --> 00:11:21,427\n部長他們都在這裡同批的肉品賣出的那一批的肉品不代表就是跟受到檢驗的那一個實驗室的那一盒梅花豬肉片是同一批的肉品因為我們有溯源制度事實上是要根據他和尚的溯源\n\n32\n00:11:22,108 --> 00:11:22,588\n所以我覺得這個要講清楚喔\n\n33\n00:11:37,876 --> 00:11:42,237\n我想特別說明一下臺東施政我所取的這40個樣品他是在同一天在不同的地區去取樣\n\n34\n00:11:59,322 --> 00:12:17,734\n那針對這個同一批的部分那麼同一批的部分大概只有兩個一個是梅花肉一個是小排的部分所以他的梅花肉這個樣品檢測出來西部特留這個樣品就是那一盒那一塊肉那後續他做檢驗的時候都是在這一塊肉裡面重複去做這些相關的一個檢測\n\n35\n00:12:18,675 --> 00:12:36,472\n那基本上在一個比較正常的一個檢測的邏輯上面來如果它的檢測的量是非常低的時候應該去尋求前後批或者是同批的其他不同的透過履歷追溯其他不同的同品項產品再去做確認這樣的話會是會是比較嚴謹的\n\n36\n00:12:38,234 --> 00:12:38,995\n是不是才是比較嚴謹的做法?\n\n37\n00:13:04,927 --> 00:13:23,168\n對,我們未來可能還是要跟地方合作,把這個SOP建立好,像委員所建立的一樣。如果他們檢驗出什麼東西的話,也來通報中央,中央也來幫忙做這個doublecheck,或者更完整的來把這個資料呈現出來。我在請問院長,我剛剛講的1月15日到2月2日,他們兩個禮拜,\n\n38\n00:13:24,870 --> 00:13:26,051\n實驗室操作準則和\n\n39\n00:13:54,232 --> 00:13:55,434\n通報然後復驗這個部分我們會再來精進\n\n40\n00:13:58,780 --> 00:14:26,745\n好那所以我再提醒一次喔很多委員拿了說所謂已經流入市面的什麼那些幾千包的這個肉品可能就是那個破口我覺得這個行政院中央我們呢基於科學的這個依據我覺得要講清楚這個一定要講清楚不要造成民心的這個不安那個委員的那個委員喔我剛才講的時候有一點點比較講\n\n41\n00:14:28,795 --> 00:14:52,144\n講的比較大聲一點那實際上我們所有的食品的抽樣只要樣本數大於30的時候呢實際上它就具有代表性這就是一般的食安檢查的時候就用抽樣來檢查那沒有一個食安的檢查是要做100%的這個是不合科學根據的也不合統計學的理論根據的\n\n42\n00:14:53,663 --> 00:15:18,529\n所以院長我覺得在面對任何的這個問題的時候我覺得我們要簡單直白讓人家聽得懂的話語來解釋像剛剛我們的一番討論我覺得就會讓人家更清楚的明白說中央是有誠意而且中央是負責任的在維護國人的食安對不對最後10秒我只有兩件事今天受這個影響叫台糖是國營事業\n\n43\n00:15:20,149 --> 00:15:27,396\n如果換作其他的私人民間企業可能就撐不住了。這一件事情我覺得應該要有研議。\n\n44\n00:15:50,692 --> 00:15:56,165\n謝謝何委員欣純的質詢。接下來我們請登記第13號李委員燕秀質詢。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9481\t24535\t謝謝院長。我們請陳建仁院長,也請我們農業部部長,也請衛生福利部部長。請陳院長及相關部會所長備選。院長好。會員好。恭喜你。\n26054\t45391\t我相信我們不管中央地方我們都非常肯定也非常心疼也心存感恩謝謝第一線上食安的所有的稽查人員所以剛剛我聽到院長能夠義正嚴實的\n46732\t47772\t我們完全肯定他們,也跟他們一起合作。\n70933\t93083\t我們一起合作嘛因為我們只有一個目標就是守護國人的食安所以在肯定第一線的稽查人員的時候我們真的知道他們辛苦過年的時候還不斷的在加班稽查但是同樣的就是為了食安我們必須要接受科學的驗證\n94304\t103319\t因為院長還有所有的食安、稽查人員所有的專業人員也都知道食安是科學的\n104144\t131416\t我們科學的驗證是大家必須要有用專業去面對所以真的不要用一些情緒性的或者是一些不夠科學證據不是那麼充分的情況之下我覺得今天有很多的委員的一個發言都沒有讓院長好好的說清楚我覺得實安再講一次第一個中央地方只有一個目標維護國人的實安\n133357\t156087\t第二個要維護食安只要一旦有相關類似食安事件的發生的時候溯源真相讓人民安心這個才是重點嘛院長同不同意我完全同意確實這個整個食安我們中央跟地方密切合作而食安人員相當的辛勞那這一個事件是台中市在做決策的時候\n158269\t173642\t我剛才早上也曾經講過因為他檢驗的濃度相當的低而且只有一個樣本所以應該要在做決策的時候應該更謹慎一點來避免恐慌舉個例子像豬籠或者是台糖就因此而有很大的損失\n173882\t199053\t所以院長我們再來講一下嘛你剛剛講的我們食安五環這是我們2016執政之後勇於面對積極的去建立這樣的食安五環的一個制度好那針對剛剛這個案件所謂大家在關心台台梅花肉事件就如同剛剛院長你講的嘛台中市政府到底他檢驗了之後他在這個所謂的從飼養\n201203\t229628\t土宅分裝到市場上市面上這每一個環節院長你知道臺中市政府在通報的時候有沒有告訴中央說這些他都有去檢驗過嗎?沒有嗎?他通報中央的時候也沒有交代這整個過程而且臺中市政府在2月2號公布的時候也沒有相關這樣子的資訊讓國人知道對不對院長?\n231871\t236044\t對確實當時只是公布說臺堂的一塊豬肉驗出來就只有這樣\n237604\t262023\t沒有任何的查核沒有任何查核所以今天我們事實上應該給院長時間而且我看院長從早上到現在不斷的在告訴國人不斷的在告訴各位委員說我們中央一旦知道2月2號收到通報之後我們趕快去溯源我們去驗飼料飼料那邊沒有我們也去驗屠宰分莊有沒有也說沒有\n262403\t281976\t那甚至呢我們要求跟各地方政府聯手稽查我們希望臺堂這個同批的肉品裡面我們抽樣的檢查到現在剛剛我們收到的報告是800多件將近900件是零檢出的對不對院長對完全檢不出來\n282998\t304154\t所以我就要請教院長這個就是社會的質疑嘛為什麼臺中市政府1月15號抽檢2月2號公布而這中間半個多月兩個禮拜的時間剛剛我們聽到院長說中央不知道臺中市政府到底有沒有去溯源比如說去\n304754\t307355\t臺中市政府有交代那這半個多月的時間院長你覺得我們第一個\n328586\t352166\t臺中市政府沒有讓臺堂申請復驗這個程序。第二個也沒讓中央知道那他相關復驗的就是說他從溯源的這個相關復驗的檢驗程序他也都沒有清楚交代那院長這件事給我們什麼啟示我們中央地方應該還要怎麼精進讓食安能夠更安全更讓人民放心\n352346\t358497\t我想在這整個的過程當中我們可以發現在臺中市政府這個檢驗他為什麼會拖這麼多時間呢?說實在話他因為他只有採了一個樣品\n363175\t391228\t那樣品檢驗出來以後他發現有西部特羅在前面那一段然後他就後來又把那一塊肉再切一塊然後再來做然後又發現那實際上來來去去都是只針對著一塊肉在那邊做檢驗那沒有去想到說同一批的這個豬肉也需要再去採檢那這個檢驗出來的濃度很低的時候他們也沒有去再尋求更多的這一個\n392870\t393010\t﹚主席\n409309\t410430\t議員長我覺得要更精準的說而是說\n424885\t439776\t在我們整個實案的相關的法規或者是實驗抽樣的相關的規範裡面SOP我們中央地方應該要好好的來坐下來檢討面對如何讓它精進因為我不希望有下一次同樣的事情來發生\n440797\t468845\t但是呢這個精進是為了讓國人安心跟放心也為了要維護其他受影響的比如說豬農比如說肉品市場相關的產業我們也是為了要維護他們的這個權益我覺得這個是要方方面面真的是要仔仔細細的中央地方大家要聯手這個不是在搶攻這個也不是在說食安有英雄主義食安沒有英雄主義\n469605\t483961\t施安只有團隊的精神,大家一起合作為國人把關,院長同不同意?完全同意,我們要團結一心,中央地方一起合作,還有公司一定要協力,那這樣才能夠把這個施安的部分做到最好。\n484482\t504613\t所以院長那如果現在以現在目前看到目前還有所有顯現的這個證據還有你們抽驗包括各地方政府都抽驗檢查的結果都是零檢出的情況之下我記得院長在2月20號有說臺中的天選之後這個個案是一個單純的一個個案那盧市長也說這是一個單純的個案\n514130\t523254\t單純的意思就是說只有一塊豬肉到目前為止只有一塊豬肉檢驗出來有西部特羅而且是只有在台中市這裡檢驗的到那這個是單一個案\n526676\t553828\t也就是說其他的豬肉都沒有受到影響所以民眾可以放心的使用那我相信臺中市政府也找不到任何的市政要去說這不是單一事件因為他如果是單一事件就很重要了為什麼這個單一事件會發生在臺中市的市政府的檢驗室裡面所以我們需要去了解發生在臺中市政府的檢驗室裡面的原因這也就是為什麼我們的專家委員會\n554428\t576186\t﹗\n576186\t576426\t﹚何欣純\n597779\t599179\t更精確的這個瞭解。\n622646\t638171\t雖然檢驗出是有那個微量的劑量在但是呢我們其他的實驗室或者是同批的肉品通通在其他縣市也都沒有檢出那所以台中市也必須清楚的給國人一個\n639111\t658889\t為什麼他剪得出來嗎?為什麼他剪得出來?而且我覺得可能我要再提醒我們中央剛剛有其他委員一直在指稱國防部在那個臺中福利站那個同批的這個肉品都已經賣出了好像說那些賣出了就已經流入市面但是呢 院長\n660390\t681427\t部長他們都在這裡同批的肉品賣出的那一批的肉品不代表就是跟受到檢驗的那一個實驗室的那一盒梅花豬肉片是同一批的肉品因為我們有溯源制度事實上是要根據他和尚的溯源\n682108\t682588\t所以我覺得這個要講清楚喔\n697876\t702237\t我想特別說明一下臺東施政我所取的這40個樣品他是在同一天在不同的地區去取樣\n719322\t737734\t那針對這個同一批的部分那麼同一批的部分大概只有兩個一個是梅花肉一個是小排的部分所以他的梅花肉這個樣品檢測出來西部特留這個樣品就是那一盒那一塊肉那後續他做檢驗的時候都是在這一塊肉裡面重複去做這些相關的一個檢測\n738675\t756472\t那基本上在一個比較正常的一個檢測的邏輯上面來如果它的檢測的量是非常低的時候應該去尋求前後批或者是同批的其他不同的透過履歷追溯其他不同的同品項產品再去做確認這樣的話會是會是比較嚴謹的\n758234\t758995\t是不是才是比較嚴謹的做法?\n784927\t803168\t對,我們未來可能還是要跟地方合作,把這個SOP建立好,像委員所建立的一樣。如果他們檢驗出什麼東西的話,也來通報中央,中央也來幫忙做這個double check,或者更完整的來把這個資料呈現出來。我在請問院長,我剛剛講的1月15日到2月2日,他們兩個禮拜,\n804870\t806051\t實驗室操作準則和\n834232\t835434\t通報然後復驗這個部分我們會再來精進\n838780\t866745\t好那所以我再提醒一次喔很多委員拿了說所謂已經流入市面的什麼那些幾千包的這個肉品可能就是那個破口我覺得這個行政院中央我們呢基於科學的這個依據我覺得要講清楚這個一定要講清楚不要造成民心的這個不安那個委員的那個委員喔我剛才講的時候有一點點比較講\n868795\t892144\t講的比較大聲一點那實際上我們所有的食品的抽樣只要樣本數大於30的時候呢實際上它就具有代表性這就是一般的食安檢查的時候就用抽樣來檢查那沒有一個食安的檢查是要做100%的這個是不合科學根據的也不合統計學的理論根據的\n893663\t918529\t所以院長我覺得在面對任何的這個問題的時候我覺得我們要簡單直白讓人家聽得懂的話語來解釋像剛剛我們的一番討論我覺得就會讓人家更清楚的明白說中央是有誠意而且中央是負責任的在維護國人的食安對不對最後10秒我只有兩件事今天受這個影響叫台糖是國營事業\n920149\t927396\t如果換作其他的私人民間企業可能就撐不住了。這一件事情我覺得應該要有研議。\n950692\t956165\t謝謝何委員欣純的質詢。接下來我們請登記第13號李委員燕秀質詢。\n","txt":"謝謝院長。我們請陳建仁院長,也請我們農業部部長,也請衛生福利部部長。請陳院長及相關部會所長備選。院長好。會員好。恭喜你。\n我相信我們不管中央地方我們都非常肯定也非常心疼也心存感恩謝謝第一線上食安的所有的稽查人員所以剛剛我聽到院長能夠義正嚴實的\n我們完全肯定他們,也跟他們一起合作。\n我們一起合作嘛因為我們只有一個目標就是守護國人的食安所以在肯定第一線的稽查人員的時候我們真的知道他們辛苦過年的時候還不斷的在加班稽查但是同樣的就是為了食安我們必須要接受科學的驗證\n因為院長還有所有的食安、稽查人員所有的專業人員也都知道食安是科學的\n我們科學的驗證是大家必須要有用專業去面對所以真的不要用一些情緒性的或者是一些不夠科學證據不是那麼充分的情況之下我覺得今天有很多的委員的一個發言都沒有讓院長好好的說清楚我覺得實安再講一次第一個中央地方只有一個目標維護國人的實安\n第二個要維護食安只要一旦有相關類似食安事件的發生的時候溯源真相讓人民安心這個才是重點嘛院長同不同意我完全同意確實這個整個食安我們中央跟地方密切合作而食安人員相當的辛勞那這一個事件是台中市在做決策的時候\n我剛才早上也曾經講過因為他檢驗的濃度相當的低而且只有一個樣本所以應該要在做決策的時候應該更謹慎一點來避免恐慌舉個例子像豬籠或者是台糖就因此而有很大的損失\n所以院長我們再來講一下嘛你剛剛講的我們食安五環這是我們2016執政之後勇於面對積極的去建立這樣的食安五環的一個制度好那針對剛剛這個案件所謂大家在關心台台梅花肉事件就如同剛剛院長你講的嘛台中市政府到底他檢驗了之後他在這個所謂的從飼養\n土宅分裝到市場上市面上這每一個環節院長你知道臺中市政府在通報的時候有沒有告訴中央說這些他都有去檢驗過嗎?沒有嗎?他通報中央的時候也沒有交代這整個過程而且臺中市政府在2月2號公布的時候也沒有相關這樣子的資訊讓國人知道對不對院長?\n對確實當時只是公布說臺堂的一塊豬肉驗出來就只有這樣\n沒有任何的查核沒有任何查核所以今天我們事實上應該給院長時間而且我看院長從早上到現在不斷的在告訴國人不斷的在告訴各位委員說我們中央一旦知道2月2號收到通報之後我們趕快去溯源我們去驗飼料飼料那邊沒有我們也去驗屠宰分莊有沒有也說沒有\n那甚至呢我們要求跟各地方政府聯手稽查我們希望臺堂這個同批的肉品裡面我們抽樣的檢查到現在剛剛我們收到的報告是800多件將近900件是零檢出的對不對院長對完全檢不出來\n所以我就要請教院長這個就是社會的質疑嘛為什麼臺中市政府1月15號抽檢2月2號公布而這中間半個多月兩個禮拜的時間剛剛我們聽到院長說中央不知道臺中市政府到底有沒有去溯源比如說去\n臺中市政府有交代那這半個多月的時間院長你覺得我們第一個\n臺中市政府沒有讓臺堂申請復驗這個程序。第二個也沒讓中央知道那他相關復驗的就是說他從溯源的這個相關復驗的檢驗程序他也都沒有清楚交代那院長這件事給我們什麼啟示我們中央地方應該還要怎麼精進讓食安能夠更安全更讓人民放心\n我想在這整個的過程當中我們可以發現在臺中市政府這個檢驗他為什麼會拖這麼多時間呢?說實在話他因為他只有採了一個樣品\n那樣品檢驗出來以後他發現有西部特羅在前面那一段然後他就後來又把那一塊肉再切一塊然後再來做然後又發現那實際上來來去去都是只針對著一塊肉在那邊做檢驗那沒有去想到說同一批的這個豬肉也需要再去採檢那這個檢驗出來的濃度很低的時候他們也沒有去再尋求更多的這一個\n﹚主席\n議員長我覺得要更精準的說而是說\n在我們整個實案的相關的法規或者是實驗抽樣的相關的規範裡面SOP我們中央地方應該要好好的來坐下來檢討面對如何讓它精進因為我不希望有下一次同樣的事情來發生\n但是呢這個精進是為了讓國人安心跟放心也為了要維護其他受影響的比如說豬農比如說肉品市場相關的產業我們也是為了要維護他們的這個權益我覺得這個是要方方面面真的是要仔仔細細的中央地方大家要聯手這個不是在搶攻這個也不是在說食安有英雄主義食安沒有英雄主義\n施安只有團隊的精神,大家一起合作為國人把關,院長同不同意?完全同意,我們要團結一心,中央地方一起合作,還有公司一定要協力,那這樣才能夠把這個施安的部分做到最好。\n所以院長那如果現在以現在目前看到目前還有所有顯現的這個證據還有你們抽驗包括各地方政府都抽驗檢查的結果都是零檢出的情況之下我記得院長在2月20號有說臺中的天選之後這個個案是一個單純的一個個案那盧市長也說這是一個單純的個案\n單純的意思就是說只有一塊豬肉到目前為止只有一塊豬肉檢驗出來有西部特羅而且是只有在台中市這裡檢驗的到那這個是單一個案\n也就是說其他的豬肉都沒有受到影響所以民眾可以放心的使用那我相信臺中市政府也找不到任何的市政要去說這不是單一事件因為他如果是單一事件就很重要了為什麼這個單一事件會發生在臺中市的市政府的檢驗室裡面所以我們需要去了解發生在臺中市政府的檢驗室裡面的原因這也就是為什麼我們的專家委員會\n﹗\n﹚何欣純\n更精確的這個瞭解。\n雖然檢驗出是有那個微量的劑量在但是呢我們其他的實驗室或者是同批的肉品通通在其他縣市也都沒有檢出那所以台中市也必須清楚的給國人一個\n為什麼他剪得出來嗎?為什麼他剪得出來?而且我覺得可能我要再提醒我們中央剛剛有其他委員一直在指稱國防部在那個臺中福利站那個同批的這個肉品都已經賣出了好像說那些賣出了就已經流入市面但是呢 院長\n部長他們都在這裡同批的肉品賣出的那一批的肉品不代表就是跟受到檢驗的那一個實驗室的那一盒梅花豬肉片是同一批的肉品因為我們有溯源制度事實上是要根據他和尚的溯源\n所以我覺得這個要講清楚喔\n我想特別說明一下臺東施政我所取的這40個樣品他是在同一天在不同的地區去取樣\n那針對這個同一批的部分那麼同一批的部分大概只有兩個一個是梅花肉一個是小排的部分所以他的梅花肉這個樣品檢測出來西部特留這個樣品就是那一盒那一塊肉那後續他做檢驗的時候都是在這一塊肉裡面重複去做這些相關的一個檢測\n那基本上在一個比較正常的一個檢測的邏輯上面來如果它的檢測的量是非常低的時候應該去尋求前後批或者是同批的其他不同的透過履歷追溯其他不同的同品項產品再去做確認這樣的話會是會是比較嚴謹的\n是不是才是比較嚴謹的做法?\n對,我們未來可能還是要跟地方合作,把這個SOP建立好,像委員所建立的一樣。如果他們檢驗出什麼東西的話,也來通報中央,中央也來幫忙做這個double check,或者更完整的來把這個資料呈現出來。我在請問院長,我剛剛講的1月15日到2月2日,他們兩個禮拜,\n實驗室操作準則和\n通報然後復驗這個部分我們會再來精進\n好那所以我再提醒一次喔很多委員拿了說所謂已經流入市面的什麼那些幾千包的這個肉品可能就是那個破口我覺得這個行政院中央我們呢基於科學的這個依據我覺得要講清楚這個一定要講清楚不要造成民心的這個不安那個委員的那個委員喔我剛才講的時候有一點點比較講\n講的比較大聲一點那實際上我們所有的食品的抽樣只要樣本數大於30的時候呢實際上它就具有代表性這就是一般的食安檢查的時候就用抽樣來檢查那沒有一個食安的檢查是要做100%的這個是不合科學根據的也不合統計學的理論根據的\n所以院長我覺得在面對任何的這個問題的時候我覺得我們要簡單直白讓人家聽得懂的話語來解釋像剛剛我們的一番討論我覺得就會讓人家更清楚的明白說中央是有誠意而且中央是負責任的在維護國人的食安對不對最後10秒我只有兩件事今天受這個影響叫台糖是國營事業\n如果換作其他的私人民間企業可能就撐不住了。這一件事情我覺得應該要有研議。\n謝謝何委員欣純的質詢。接下來我們請登記第13號李委員燕秀質詢。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.481 --> 00:24.535\n謝謝院長。我們請陳建仁院長,也請我們農業部部長,也請衛生福利部部長。請陳院長及相關部會所長備選。院長好。會員好。恭喜你。\n\n00:26.054 --> 00:45.391\n我相信我們不管中央地方我們都非常肯定也非常心疼也心存感恩謝謝第一線上食安的所有的稽查人員所以剛剛我聽到院長能夠義正嚴實的\n\n00:46.732 --> 00:47.772\n我們完全肯定他們,也跟他們一起合作。\n\n01:10.933 --> 01:33.083\n我們一起合作嘛因為我們只有一個目標就是守護國人的食安所以在肯定第一線的稽查人員的時候我們真的知道他們辛苦過年的時候還不斷的在加班稽查但是同樣的就是為了食安我們必須要接受科學的驗證\n\n01:34.304 --> 01:43.319\n因為院長還有所有的食安、稽查人員所有的專業人員也都知道食安是科學的\n\n01:44.144 --> 02:11.416\n我們科學的驗證是大家必須要有用專業去面對所以真的不要用一些情緒性的或者是一些不夠科學證據不是那麼充分的情況之下我覺得今天有很多的委員的一個發言都沒有讓院長好好的說清楚我覺得實安再講一次第一個中央地方只有一個目標維護國人的實安\n\n02:13.357 --> 02:36.087\n第二個要維護食安只要一旦有相關類似食安事件的發生的時候溯源真相讓人民安心這個才是重點嘛院長同不同意我完全同意確實這個整個食安我們中央跟地方密切合作而食安人員相當的辛勞那這一個事件是台中市在做決策的時候\n\n02:38.269 --> 02:53.642\n我剛才早上也曾經講過因為他檢驗的濃度相當的低而且只有一個樣本所以應該要在做決策的時候應該更謹慎一點來避免恐慌舉個例子像豬籠或者是台糖就因此而有很大的損失\n\n02:53.882 --> 03:19.053\n所以院長我們再來講一下嘛你剛剛講的我們食安五環這是我們2016執政之後勇於面對積極的去建立這樣的食安五環的一個制度好那針對剛剛這個案件所謂大家在關心台台梅花肉事件就如同剛剛院長你講的嘛台中市政府到底他檢驗了之後他在這個所謂的從飼養\n\n03:21.203 --> 03:49.628\n土宅分裝到市場上市面上這每一個環節院長你知道臺中市政府在通報的時候有沒有告訴中央說這些他都有去檢驗過嗎?沒有嗎?他通報中央的時候也沒有交代這整個過程而且臺中市政府在2月2號公布的時候也沒有相關這樣子的資訊讓國人知道對不對院長?\n\n03:51.871 --> 03:56.044\n對確實當時只是公布說臺堂的一塊豬肉驗出來就只有這樣\n\n03:57.604 --> 04:22.023\n沒有任何的查核沒有任何查核所以今天我們事實上應該給院長時間而且我看院長從早上到現在不斷的在告訴國人不斷的在告訴各位委員說我們中央一旦知道2月2號收到通報之後我們趕快去溯源我們去驗飼料飼料那邊沒有我們也去驗屠宰分莊有沒有也說沒有\n\n04:22.403 --> 04:41.976\n那甚至呢我們要求跟各地方政府聯手稽查我們希望臺堂這個同批的肉品裡面我們抽樣的檢查到現在剛剛我們收到的報告是800多件將近900件是零檢出的對不對院長對完全檢不出來\n\n04:42.998 --> 05:04.154\n所以我就要請教院長這個就是社會的質疑嘛為什麼臺中市政府1月15號抽檢2月2號公布而這中間半個多月兩個禮拜的時間剛剛我們聽到院長說中央不知道臺中市政府到底有沒有去溯源比如說去\n\n05:04.754 --> 05:07.355\n臺中市政府有交代那這半個多月的時間院長你覺得我們第一個\n\n05:28.586 --> 05:52.166\n臺中市政府沒有讓臺堂申請復驗這個程序。第二個也沒讓中央知道那他相關復驗的就是說他從溯源的這個相關復驗的檢驗程序他也都沒有清楚交代那院長這件事給我們什麼啟示我們中央地方應該還要怎麼精進讓食安能夠更安全更讓人民放心\n\n05:52.346 --> 05:58.497\n我想在這整個的過程當中我們可以發現在臺中市政府這個檢驗他為什麼會拖這麼多時間呢?說實在話他因為他只有採了一個樣品\n\n06:03.175 --> 06:31.228\n那樣品檢驗出來以後他發現有西部特羅在前面那一段然後他就後來又把那一塊肉再切一塊然後再來做然後又發現那實際上來來去去都是只針對著一塊肉在那邊做檢驗那沒有去想到說同一批的這個豬肉也需要再去採檢那這個檢驗出來的濃度很低的時候他們也沒有去再尋求更多的這一個\n\n06:32.870 --> 06:33.010\n﹚主席\n\n06:49.309 --> 06:50.430\n議員長我覺得要更精準的說而是說\n\n07:04.885 --> 07:19.776\n在我們整個實案的相關的法規或者是實驗抽樣的相關的規範裡面SOP我們中央地方應該要好好的來坐下來檢討面對如何讓它精進因為我不希望有下一次同樣的事情來發生\n\n07:20.797 --> 07:48.845\n但是呢這個精進是為了讓國人安心跟放心也為了要維護其他受影響的比如說豬農比如說肉品市場相關的產業我們也是為了要維護他們的這個權益我覺得這個是要方方面面真的是要仔仔細細的中央地方大家要聯手這個不是在搶攻這個也不是在說食安有英雄主義食安沒有英雄主義\n\n07:49.605 --> 08:03.961\n施安只有團隊的精神,大家一起合作為國人把關,院長同不同意?完全同意,我們要團結一心,中央地方一起合作,還有公司一定要協力,那這樣才能夠把這個施安的部分做到最好。\n\n08:04.482 --> 08:24.613\n所以院長那如果現在以現在目前看到目前還有所有顯現的這個證據還有你們抽驗包括各地方政府都抽驗檢查的結果都是零檢出的情況之下我記得院長在2月20號有說臺中的天選之後這個個案是一個單純的一個個案那盧市長也說這是一個單純的個案\n\n08:34.130 --> 08:43.254\n單純的意思就是說只有一塊豬肉到目前為止只有一塊豬肉檢驗出來有西部特羅而且是只有在台中市這裡檢驗的到那這個是單一個案\n\n08:46.676 --> 09:13.828\n也就是說其他的豬肉都沒有受到影響所以民眾可以放心的使用那我相信臺中市政府也找不到任何的市政要去說這不是單一事件因為他如果是單一事件就很重要了為什麼這個單一事件會發生在臺中市的市政府的檢驗室裡面所以我們需要去了解發生在臺中市政府的檢驗室裡面的原因這也就是為什麼我們的專家委員會\n\n09:36.186 --> 09:36.426\n﹚何欣純\n\n09:57.779 --> 09:59.179\n更精確的這個瞭解。\n\n10:22.646 --> 10:38.171\n雖然檢驗出是有那個微量的劑量在但是呢我們其他的實驗室或者是同批的肉品通通在其他縣市也都沒有檢出那所以台中市也必須清楚的給國人一個\n\n10:39.111 --> 10:58.889\n為什麼他剪得出來嗎?為什麼他剪得出來?而且我覺得可能我要再提醒我們中央剛剛有其他委員一直在指稱國防部在那個臺中福利站那個同批的這個肉品都已經賣出了好像說那些賣出了就已經流入市面但是呢院長\n\n11:00.390 --> 11:21.427\n部長他們都在這裡同批的肉品賣出的那一批的肉品不代表就是跟受到檢驗的那一個實驗室的那一盒梅花豬肉片是同一批的肉品因為我們有溯源制度事實上是要根據他和尚的溯源\n\n11:22.108 --> 11:22.588\n所以我覺得這個要講清楚喔\n\n11:37.876 --> 11:42.237\n我想特別說明一下臺東施政我所取的這40個樣品他是在同一天在不同的地區去取樣\n\n11:59.322 --> 12:17.734\n那針對這個同一批的部分那麼同一批的部分大概只有兩個一個是梅花肉一個是小排的部分所以他的梅花肉這個樣品檢測出來西部特留這個樣品就是那一盒那一塊肉那後續他做檢驗的時候都是在這一塊肉裡面重複去做這些相關的一個檢測\n\n12:18.675 --> 12:36.472\n那基本上在一個比較正常的一個檢測的邏輯上面來如果它的檢測的量是非常低的時候應該去尋求前後批或者是同批的其他不同的透過履歷追溯其他不同的同品項產品再去做確認這樣的話會是會是比較嚴謹的\n\n12:38.234 --> 12:38.995\n是不是才是比較嚴謹的做法?\n\n13:04.927 --> 13:23.168\n對,我們未來可能還是要跟地方合作,把這個SOP建立好,像委員所建立的一樣。如果他們檢驗出什麼東西的話,也來通報中央,中央也來幫忙做這個doublecheck,或者更完整的來把這個資料呈現出來。我在請問院長,我剛剛講的1月15日到2月2日,他們兩個禮拜,\n\n13:24.870 --> 13:26.051\n實驗室操作準則和\n\n13:54.232 --> 13:55.434\n通報然後復驗這個部分我們會再來精進\n\n13:58.780 --> 14:26.745\n好那所以我再提醒一次喔很多委員拿了說所謂已經流入市面的什麼那些幾千包的這個肉品可能就是那個破口我覺得這個行政院中央我們呢基於科學的這個依據我覺得要講清楚這個一定要講清楚不要造成民心的這個不安那個委員的那個委員喔我剛才講的時候有一點點比較講\n\n14:28.795 --> 14:52.144\n講的比較大聲一點那實際上我們所有的食品的抽樣只要樣本數大於30的時候呢實際上它就具有代表性這就是一般的食安檢查的時候就用抽樣來檢查那沒有一個食安的檢查是要做100%的這個是不合科學根據的也不合統計學的理論根據的\n\n14:53.663 --> 15:18.529\n所以院長我覺得在面對任何的這個問題的時候我覺得我們要簡單直白讓人家聽得懂的話語來解釋像剛剛我們的一番討論我覺得就會讓人家更清楚的明白說中央是有誠意而且中央是負責任的在維護國人的食安對不對最後10秒我只有兩件事今天受這個影響叫台糖是國營事業\n\n15:20.149 --> 15:27.396\n如果換作其他的私人民間企業可能就撐不住了。這一件事情我覺得應該要有研議。\n\n15:50.692 --> 15:56.165\n謝謝何委員欣純的質詢。接下來我們請登記第13號李委員燕秀質詢。\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.481,"end":24.535,"text":"謝謝院長。我們請陳建仁院長,也請我們農業部部長,也請衛生福利部部長。請陳院長及相關部會所長備選。院長好。會員好。恭喜你。"},{"start":26.054,"end":45.391,"text":"我相信我們不管中央地方我們都非常肯定也非常心疼也心存感恩謝謝第一線上食安的所有的稽查人員所以剛剛我聽到院長能夠義正嚴實的"},{"start":46.732,"end":47.772,"text":"我們完全肯定他們,也跟他們一起合作。"},{"start":70.933,"end":93.083,"text":"我們一起合作嘛因為我們只有一個目標就是守護國人的食安所以在肯定第一線的稽查人員的時候我們真的知道他們辛苦過年的時候還不斷的在加班稽查但是同樣的就是為了食安我們必須要接受科學的驗證"},{"start":94.304,"end":103.319,"text":"因為院長還有所有的食安、稽查人員所有的專業人員也都知道食安是科學的"},{"start":104.144,"end":131.416,"text":"我們科學的驗證是大家必須要有用專業去面對所以真的不要用一些情緒性的或者是一些不夠科學證據不是那麼充分的情況之下我覺得今天有很多的委員的一個發言都沒有讓院長好好的說清楚我覺得實安再講一次第一個中央地方只有一個目標維護國人的實安"},{"start":133.357,"end":156.087,"text":"第二個要維護食安只要一旦有相關類似食安事件的發生的時候溯源真相讓人民安心這個才是重點嘛院長同不同意我完全同意確實這個整個食安我們中央跟地方密切合作而食安人員相當的辛勞那這一個事件是台中市在做決策的時候"},{"start":158.269,"end":173.642,"text":"我剛才早上也曾經講過因為他檢驗的濃度相當的低而且只有一個樣本所以應該要在做決策的時候應該更謹慎一點來避免恐慌舉個例子像豬籠或者是台糖就因此而有很大的損失"},{"start":173.882,"end":199.053,"text":"所以院長我們再來講一下嘛你剛剛講的我們食安五環這是我們2016執政之後勇於面對積極的去建立這樣的食安五環的一個制度好那針對剛剛這個案件所謂大家在關心台台梅花肉事件就如同剛剛院長你講的嘛台中市政府到底他檢驗了之後他在這個所謂的從飼養"},{"start":201.203,"end":229.628,"text":"土宅分裝到市場上市面上這每一個環節院長你知道臺中市政府在通報的時候有沒有告訴中央說這些他都有去檢驗過嗎?沒有嗎?他通報中央的時候也沒有交代這整個過程而且臺中市政府在2月2號公布的時候也沒有相關這樣子的資訊讓國人知道對不對院長?"},{"start":231.871,"end":236.044,"text":"對確實當時只是公布說臺堂的一塊豬肉驗出來就只有這樣"},{"start":237.604,"end":262.023,"text":"沒有任何的查核沒有任何查核所以今天我們事實上應該給院長時間而且我看院長從早上到現在不斷的在告訴國人不斷的在告訴各位委員說我們中央一旦知道2月2號收到通報之後我們趕快去溯源我們去驗飼料飼料那邊沒有我們也去驗屠宰分莊有沒有也說沒有"},{"start":262.403,"end":281.976,"text":"那甚至呢我們要求跟各地方政府聯手稽查我們希望臺堂這個同批的肉品裡面我們抽樣的檢查到現在剛剛我們收到的報告是800多件將近900件是零檢出的對不對院長對完全檢不出來"},{"start":282.998,"end":304.154,"text":"所以我就要請教院長這個就是社會的質疑嘛為什麼臺中市政府1月15號抽檢2月2號公布而這中間半個多月兩個禮拜的時間剛剛我們聽到院長說中央不知道臺中市政府到底有沒有去溯源比如說去"},{"start":304.754,"end":307.355,"text":"臺中市政府有交代那這半個多月的時間院長你覺得我們第一個"},{"start":328.586,"end":352.166,"text":"臺中市政府沒有讓臺堂申請復驗這個程序。第二個也沒讓中央知道那他相關復驗的就是說他從溯源的這個相關復驗的檢驗程序他也都沒有清楚交代那院長這件事給我們什麼啟示我們中央地方應該還要怎麼精進讓食安能夠更安全更讓人民放心"},{"start":352.346,"end":358.497,"text":"我想在這整個的過程當中我們可以發現在臺中市政府這個檢驗他為什麼會拖這麼多時間呢?說實在話他因為他只有採了一個樣品"},{"start":363.175,"end":391.228,"text":"那樣品檢驗出來以後他發現有西部特羅在前面那一段然後他就後來又把那一塊肉再切一塊然後再來做然後又發現那實際上來來去去都是只針對著一塊肉在那邊做檢驗那沒有去想到說同一批的這個豬肉也需要再去採檢那這個檢驗出來的濃度很低的時候他們也沒有去再尋求更多的這一個"},{"start":392.87,"end":393.01,"text":"﹚主席"},{"start":409.309,"end":410.43,"text":"議員長我覺得要更精準的說而是說"},{"start":424.885,"end":439.776,"text":"在我們整個實案的相關的法規或者是實驗抽樣的相關的規範裡面SOP我們中央地方應該要好好的來坐下來檢討面對如何讓它精進因為我不希望有下一次同樣的事情來發生"},{"start":440.797,"end":468.845,"text":"但是呢這個精進是為了讓國人安心跟放心也為了要維護其他受影響的比如說豬農比如說肉品市場相關的產業我們也是為了要維護他們的這個權益我覺得這個是要方方面面真的是要仔仔細細的中央地方大家要聯手這個不是在搶攻這個也不是在說食安有英雄主義食安沒有英雄主義"},{"start":469.605,"end":483.961,"text":"施安只有團隊的精神,大家一起合作為國人把關,院長同不同意?完全同意,我們要團結一心,中央地方一起合作,還有公司一定要協力,那這樣才能夠把這個施安的部分做到最好。"},{"start":484.482,"end":504.613,"text":"所以院長那如果現在以現在目前看到目前還有所有顯現的這個證據還有你們抽驗包括各地方政府都抽驗檢查的結果都是零檢出的情況之下我記得院長在2月20號有說臺中的天選之後這個個案是一個單純的一個個案那盧市長也說這是一個單純的個案"},{"start":514.13,"end":523.254,"text":"單純的意思就是說只有一塊豬肉到目前為止只有一塊豬肉檢驗出來有西部特羅而且是只有在台中市這裡檢驗的到那這個是單一個案"},{"start":526.676,"end":553.828,"text":"也就是說其他的豬肉都沒有受到影響所以民眾可以放心的使用那我相信臺中市政府也找不到任何的市政要去說這不是單一事件因為他如果是單一事件就很重要了為什麼這個單一事件會發生在臺中市的市政府的檢驗室裡面所以我們需要去了解發生在臺中市政府的檢驗室裡面的原因這也就是為什麼我們的專家委員會"},{"start":554.428,"end":576.186,"text":"﹗"},{"start":576.186,"end":576.426,"text":"﹚何欣純"},{"start":597.779,"end":599.179,"text":"更精確的這個瞭解。"},{"start":622.646,"end":638.171,"text":"雖然檢驗出是有那個微量的劑量在但是呢我們其他的實驗室或者是同批的肉品通通在其他縣市也都沒有檢出那所以台中市也必須清楚的給國人一個"},{"start":639.111,"end":658.889,"text":"為什麼他剪得出來嗎?為什麼他剪得出來?而且我覺得可能我要再提醒我們中央剛剛有其他委員一直在指稱國防部在那個臺中福利站那個同批的這個肉品都已經賣出了好像說那些賣出了就已經流入市面但是呢 院長"},{"start":660.39,"end":681.427,"text":"部長他們都在這裡同批的肉品賣出的那一批的肉品不代表就是跟受到檢驗的那一個實驗室的那一盒梅花豬肉片是同一批的肉品因為我們有溯源制度事實上是要根據他和尚的溯源"},{"start":682.108,"end":682.588,"text":"所以我覺得這個要講清楚喔"},{"start":697.876,"end":702.237,"text":"我想特別說明一下臺東施政我所取的這40個樣品他是在同一天在不同的地區去取樣"},{"start":719.322,"end":737.734,"text":"那針對這個同一批的部分那麼同一批的部分大概只有兩個一個是梅花肉一個是小排的部分所以他的梅花肉這個樣品檢測出來西部特留這個樣品就是那一盒那一塊肉那後續他做檢驗的時候都是在這一塊肉裡面重複去做這些相關的一個檢測"},{"start":738.675,"end":756.472,"text":"那基本上在一個比較正常的一個檢測的邏輯上面來如果它的檢測的量是非常低的時候應該去尋求前後批或者是同批的其他不同的透過履歷追溯其他不同的同品項產品再去做確認這樣的話會是會是比較嚴謹的"},{"start":758.234,"end":758.995,"text":"是不是才是比較嚴謹的做法?"},{"start":784.927,"end":803.168,"text":"對,我們未來可能還是要跟地方合作,把這個SOP建立好,像委員所建立的一樣。如果他們檢驗出什麼東西的話,也來通報中央,中央也來幫忙做這個double check,或者更完整的來把這個資料呈現出來。我在請問院長,我剛剛講的1月15日到2月2日,他們兩個禮拜,"},{"start":804.87,"end":806.051,"text":"實驗室操作準則和"},{"start":834.232,"end":835.434,"text":"通報然後復驗這個部分我們會再來精進"},{"start":838.78,"end":866.745,"text":"好那所以我再提醒一次喔很多委員拿了說所謂已經流入市面的什麼那些幾千包的這個肉品可能就是那個破口我覺得這個行政院中央我們呢基於科學的這個依據我覺得要講清楚這個一定要講清楚不要造成民心的這個不安那個委員的那個委員喔我剛才講的時候有一點點比較講"},{"start":868.795,"end":892.144,"text":"講的比較大聲一點那實際上我們所有的食品的抽樣只要樣本數大於30的時候呢實際上它就具有代表性這就是一般的食安檢查的時候就用抽樣來檢查那沒有一個食安的檢查是要做100%的這個是不合科學根據的也不合統計學的理論根據的"},{"start":893.663,"end":918.529,"text":"所以院長我覺得在面對任何的這個問題的時候我覺得我們要簡單直白讓人家聽得懂的話語來解釋像剛剛我們的一番討論我覺得就會讓人家更清楚的明白說中央是有誠意而且中央是負責任的在維護國人的食安對不對最後10秒我只有兩件事今天受這個影響叫台糖是國營事業"},{"start":920.149,"end":927.396,"text":"如果換作其他的私人民間企業可能就撐不住了。這一件事情我覺得應該要有研議。"},{"start":950.692,"end":956.165,"text":"謝謝何委員欣純的質詢。接下來我們請登記第13號李委員燕秀質詢。"}]}}}}