{"id":149141,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149141","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61d28f3f53a2feb6478e54e862820215b347916f9bc661eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6821df7bc466bea525ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"16:52:35 - 17:08:36","影片長度":"00:16:01","會議時間":"2024-02-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-23","duration":961,"end_time":"2024-02-23T17:08:36+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-23T16:52:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1096,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（16時52分）謝謝院長，麻煩陳建仁院長。"],["主席：再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：王委員午安。"],["王委員定宇：院長，辛苦了。"],["陳院長建仁：不會。"],["王委員定宇：我想食安應該是一個科學問題。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["王委員定宇：但食安如果用太多的政治口水，它會變心理的恐慌問題。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以我們政府面對食安有點像衛生紙，衛生紙夠不夠，它是經濟問題，大家都在搶衛生紙，心理的恐慌反而也會造就問題，所以我儘量不用政治方面來討論下列的事情。我先請教一個基本的事情，當我們發現有食安威脅的時候，我們發布，就是公布於眾的標準是什麼？因為我們都希望這個東西有問題，要趕快讓民眾知道，愈快愈好，但是要求正確，因為它一旦不正確，你發布了就會從科學問題變心理問題，你知道我的意思嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：對，我知道。"],["王委員定宇：它是兩面性。"],["陳院長建仁：引起恐慌。"],["王委員定宇：對，又要快、又要準，所以我第一個請教就是發現食安威脅的時候，發布的標準我們現在有沒有一個一定的標準？"],["陳院長建仁：我們……"],["主席：王委員定宇，容許我打斷，我們讓薛部長坐著，好不好？因為薛部長身體真的……"],["陳院長建仁：沒關係，沒關係。"],["主席：沒關係啦！我擔心……"],["王委員定宇：兩位都坐著我都可以接受。"],["主席：都坐著好了，因為薛部長……"],["王委員定宇：可是我的時間還是在照跑。"],["陳院長建仁：他嗓子啞了。"],["主席：因為他……"],["王委員定宇：院長，我尊重你的裁示……"],["主席：時間暫停、時間暫停……"],["王委員定宇：但是時間還給我照跑，這樣不好啦！"],["主席：薛部長，你請坐。坐啦！沒關係！因為我感覺你真的很不舒服，好不好？院長，你也請坐一下，沒關係。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有關係，我可以……"],["主席：反正內容一樣，好，時間請繼續。"],["王委員定宇：我沒有請部長起來，因為我聽那個聲音怪怪的。","所以我們現在有一個原則就是臺灣已經是一個很進步的科學國家，多數的孩子經過高中也有基本的、科學的大概認知都有，所以一個食安問題，到底在什麼標準下該公布，我們應該有一個標準，現在標準是什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：還是在地方政府做第一線。"],["王委員定宇：地方政府那個是行政程序，我講的是標準。"],["薛部長瑞元：但是……"],["王委員定宇：實驗室做出什麼結果，在什麼狀態下要公布於眾？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前並沒有一個特定的標準，所以還是要看這個物質風險。"],["王委員定宇：部長，你的喉嚨休息一下。第一個問題，我們現在面對又要快、又要準，可是我們實驗室並沒有一套標準，坦白講，檢驗的東西不一樣，像是孔雀綠什麼的……"],["陳院長建仁：對啦，剛才他講的……"],["王委員定宇：它就會有不一樣的指數嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["王委員定宇：所以很難針對這麼多的品項訂出一個唯一的標準，可能可以訂百分比或ppb，這是第一個本席具體的建議，就是什麼時候要公布，但這是單一數值哦！","我下一個問題是，縱使我們在實驗室，我在寫論文，控制組、對照組，會不會這一個品項、這一個單品所驗出來的數值可以得到諾貝爾獎，這個數據嚇死人了，那我就公布？"],["陳院長建仁：當然不行，要確認。"],["王委員定宇：是不可以，這是科學問題，這不是政治問題。我現在檢驗一個東西，它的數據很驚人，我不會急著公布在論文上，何況會引起大眾恐慌的數據，我下一步應該怎麼做？應該在同類型或同批次的東西再找一些來抽，如果都是這樣，我可能發現新物種、可能發現新東西；但如果只有這個單一品項數據異常，可是同一批次、同一物種都跟它不一樣，我現在講的是實驗室，那我就開始要研究，到底是單向有病變，還是我的實驗室流程有謬誤，有的還會用方法讓結果符合理論，那是不可取啦。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["王委員定宇：所以這個才是科學精神嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["王委員定宇：我接下來另外要問一個也是基本的科學，單一一個東西，這次這一塊肉驗了22次，我一直驗、一直驗，驗出這一塊肉有西布特羅，送到食藥署複驗有西布特羅有什麼稀罕？"],["陳院長建仁：對啊。"],["王委員定宇：你知道意思嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：本來就有啊！"],["王委員定宇：我拿一塊肉，原來已經有被污染了，再拿到食藥署複驗，它還是那一塊肉，沒有來到同批次的對照。我要問的是，我看報載，現在我要重新證實，這一塊肉抽了22次，抽的方法有沒有一樣？部位有沒有一樣？"],["陳院長建仁：這一塊肉實際上是分兩次，因為這個肉類的檢驗拿了檢體，切完以後，再把它……"],["王委員定宇：要切。"],["陳院長建仁：就把它打碎，然後再去做檢驗，檢驗的話，我印象中它在22次裡面，其實分兩次在做，這兩次做的時候，為什麼它自己會有遲疑呢？就是一次做出來的差異太大了，差十幾倍嘛，所以它就……"],["王委員定宇：我們在實驗室如果同一個物件……"],["陳院長建仁：應該是一樣的。"],["王委員定宇：同一個object，如果落差超過35%，這個數據我可不可以寫在論文裡面？"],["陳院長建仁：我想這是不正確的。"],["王委員定宇：這是不能公布的，這是有問題的嘛。"],["陳院長建仁：對，不正確的數值。"],["王委員定宇：我們現在講到這裡，我並沒有特別去講是地方的問題、中央的問題，它是一個科學驗證的問題。如果食藥署同一塊肉驗了22次，數據落差超過35%，前後數據高達十幾倍不一樣，作為一個科學實驗人員，你馬上腦袋要想的是，這個數據有問題，我不能馬上公布出去。"],["陳院長建仁：對，免得引起恐慌。"],["王委員定宇：因為馬上公布出去，它會從科學問題變心理恐慌問題。"],["陳院長建仁：對，我完全同意。"],["王委員定宇：這件事情是這個樣子嘛。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["王委員定宇：那一塊肉、那一包肉，就只有那一包，對，它確實驗出西布特羅，為什麼有？我們待會再研究，它驗出之後，同一包肉打碎了兩次，驗了22次，落差十多倍，單一數據的落差超過35%，這不是民進黨說了算，也不是國民黨說了算，不是藍綠白的問題，可以去問全臺灣所有實驗室，不管是臺大、成大，任何實驗室，這樣的數據能不能拿來當論文的數據，何況是拿來公布於眾？"],["陳院長建仁：所以是需要再進一步地……"],["王委員定宇：所以我第二個問題是怎麼樣的數據可以公布？除了數值的ppb以外，這個數據的流程、對照組、控制組、橫向的檢驗，到怎麼樣的狀況，我要最快速度、最正確的時候，有驗出了，這個有威脅，公布於眾，告訴大家不要吃、不要用，這個才對嘛。","就這個階段的質詢到目前為止，這一次數據的第一時間公布有沒有符合科學精神？"],["陳院長建仁：因為它的差距很大，然後都沒有再double check，所以我們剛才才講說，怎麼樣找到正確的數字再公布，因為它本身就有很大的range，那它到底去挑哪一個數字？就隨著高興挑也不正確，所以在當時應該是再做另外一個……"],["王委員定宇：應該要同一批肉、同一頭豬……"],["陳院長建仁：再來做一次……"],["王委員定宇：同一批產出來的肉，其他部位抽一抽看有沒有，才來決定。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["王委員定宇：到底是系統性問題要公布於眾，如果如同盧秀燕市長所說的是個案問題，你公布於眾會產生什麼問題？我待會先……農業部長有來嘛，陳駿季代部長先上來，我把問題繼續往下推，就是說那一包肉按照科學的原則，它的數據這樣的公布到底是科學決定還是政治決定？我個人打個問號，我也不讓院長回答，我認為那個決定在科學的公布上其實是有一定的問題。","我有關院長跟部長最後一個問題要問的是，毒澱粉之後，我們臺南統一企業弄了一個食安辦公室，它有經過國際認證嘛，然後另外SGS是民間的，它的食品實驗室也經過國際認證嘛，另外我們中央單位有一個……"],["陳院長建仁：食藥署……"],["王委員定宇：畜產社。"],["陳院長建仁：喔……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，畜產會……"],["王委員定宇：那個也經過國際認證嘛。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["王委員定宇：這3個國際認證然後加上我們地方政府，不管國民黨執政、民進黨執政的地方政府的實驗室抽驗，從所有的肉品、從豬的血液到毛髮、到同批次的產品抽驗到現在，萊克多巴胺跟西布特羅有沒有驗出？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有。"],["王委員定宇：零，所以我們幾乎可以斷定就只有臺中市食安處的那一包肉有驗出來了，而且經過中央食藥署複驗，它確實有嘛，就只有那一包肉，所以盧秀燕市長其實定義得不錯，他說這是個案，我個人對於過年前他講這是個案，我表示佩服，因為他講個案至少把衝擊降低一點、對很多人減少影響，薛部長你先回去休息啦。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，謝謝。"],["王委員定宇：好的，那個公布的過程我們希望亡羊補牢，就是建構發布的標準，特別是經常食用的米、麵、澱粉等等它要多少ppb，然後實驗流程要經過什麼樣的程序，然後確認為系統性問題才應該公布於眾，否則食安會從科學問題因為隨意的違反科學準則去公布，它從科學問題變成心理恐慌問題，那傷害的人就很多了。"],["陳院長建仁：對，確實。"],["王委員定宇：如果它真的有毒，該公布就公布、該被傷害就被傷害，這責無旁貸，可是如果它根本不是系統性問題，只是在實驗室你抽驗同一塊肉，22次結果不一樣，落差高達35%以上，任何學過基礎生物實驗的人都知道，這要再看一下。"],["陳院長建仁：沒錯。"],["王委員定宇：對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：沒錯。"],["王委員定宇：公布之後就產生什麼問題呢？我要請教農業部，農業部有沒有統計我們農曆春節前本土豬肉的交易量、交易產值是多少？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想我們在農曆的……"],["王委員定宇：過去、我講過去，我先不講今年的，以往。"],["陳代理部長駿季：過往的時候大概是在85塊的上下，從80到85之間。"],["王委員定宇：1斤85塊嘛。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，1公斤85塊。"],["陳院長建仁：1公斤。"],["王委員定宇：1公斤85塊，這一次因為這個事件有沒有波動？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們在監測它的整個過程裡面，2月2號到春節收市之前平均是90.8元，但是春節以後它有不同的因素讓它的價格現在平均是86。"],["王委員定宇：作為農業部的部長，你認為這一次西布特羅的事件，從一開始發布到說毒豬肉等等，現在證明沒有、根本不是系統性的問題，我們本土豬農……因為我看到全國養豬協會潘理事長那邊提到豬農有受損，到底有沒有受損的數字？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想受損的部分可能還要再去精算，因為基本上從批發市場在春節前的價格是90.8元……"],["王委員定宇：部長，如果到現在還沒有精算的話，農業部這樣不行喔，你懂我意思嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我知道。"],["王委員定宇：我今天面對這個事情，消費者我要保護，供應者就是豬農、攤販、豬肉販、傳統市場，我都要保護。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["王委員定宇：而有關豬肉這一塊，我如果是農業部我一定馬上統計今年的……因為價格我不會認為是唯一的指標，我把數量縮減、價格就浮了嘛，我的意思是說，以往春節也許比方說1萬斤，今年有沒有變成9,000斤、5,000斤？然後因為這樣的價格或屠宰量會不會減少？這是農業部的責任！"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["王委員定宇：你一定要統計出來告訴大家，這個消息出來，我們今年的本土豬量就壓低了，搞不好很多就變原料，因為怕賣不出去，它減少出豬，但畜牧業跟工業不一樣，不是你今天不殺，那個豬就不會長大，它還是會繼續吃飼料、越長越大。","所以有關這個訊息對於我們畜牧業有沒有造成傷害影響，你今天沒有數據，也不能提供錯誤的，你們要儘快統計給我們知道。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們已經持續在跟豬場這邊做一個統計，包括它每一天的批發量……"],["王委員定宇：有數字出來了嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：大概是2.4萬到2.2萬之間，我們跟去年同期在比較，去找出一個……"],["王委員定宇：跟去年比較有沒有波動？"],["陳代理部長駿季：它的波動以價格來講反而比去年高一點，但是不能這樣算，因為還有成本的問題……"],["王委員定宇：不能這樣講，供應量……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，還有成本的問題……"],["王委員定宇：供應量會影響價格嘛？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，還有成本的問題，還有供應量的問題，所以我剛才說我們現在還在做這樣的蒐集……"],["王委員定宇：這一年來飼料漲價了，你不能用價格判斷影響……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，不能用價格比，對，不能用這樣比……"],["王委員定宇：你們要算量。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["王委員定宇：你們量有沒有波動？有沒有算出來？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們現在的量從去年的春節期間大概2.4萬噸，我們今年的話大概是2.2萬噸。"],["王委員定宇：減差不多2,000……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，但是它每一頭豬的重量比去年還高，所以以整體的重量來講，我們現在還在……"],["王委員定宇：你這樣數據講得亂糟糟，簡單來說，第一，因為他們說單一重量加高，所以頭數減少，重量也減少，那這到底是不是因為這個所影響，你們要去統計，就是說價格的高低會跟供應量跟飼料成本有關係，但目前我從你剛才的數據聽起來，宰殺的頭數低，數量有減少，然後總供應的重量數從2.4萬噸降到2.2萬噸，數量也有減少，這個到底是什麼因素導致的，我不妄加定論，農業部應該要給答案。","我最後再請教部長，如果院長知道的話就回答，不知道的話薛部長你就比較辛苦一點啦！臺中那一包肉如果現在是唯一一包有西布特羅的肉，它到底是從哪裡取回實驗室的？一般都去市場取樣嘛？"],["陳院長建仁：它是在臺中的一個國軍福利社……"],["陳代理部長駿季：國軍的副食供應中心。"],["王委員定宇：副食供應商抽到的？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["王委員定宇：那一個供應商其他的肉你們有沒有去驗過？國軍很重要耶！"],["陳院長建仁：現在……"],["陳代理部長駿季：據我們所瞭解，它取樣的時候針對有台糖履歷的那一批大概是兩包，一包是梅花肉，一包是……"],["王委員定宇：驗完還是只有那一包？其他沒有？"],["陳代理部長駿季：只有那一包，沒有。"],["王委員定宇：OK，就其他沒有，縱使在國軍副食供應站就那一包肉有？"],["陳代理部長駿季：它只取那一包，對。"],["王委員定宇：那拿回來之後是誰做檢驗的，你們有掌握人嘛？"],["陳院長建仁：就裡面的……"],["王委員定宇：就實驗人員嘛？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["王委員定宇：它的作業流程要檢驗出來，因為我現在只剩9秒鐘，院長你是中研院的科學家，你判斷到現在可不可以用一句話說這到底怎麼回事？"],["陳院長建仁：我想因為只有在一個實驗室裡面的一塊肉檢驗的到，所以我們一定要從這個實驗的流程來看這個是不是有問題。"],["王委員定宇：所以應該是要實驗流程上來解釋了。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["王委員定宇：它也許不應該叫食安問題，它應該是實驗室流程檢討問題，也符合盧秀燕市長所說的，是個案問題。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["王委員定宇：好，謝謝院長、謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝王委員定宇的質詢，謝謝陳建仁院長，謝謝。","接下來我們請登記第15號羅委員智強質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","陳昭姿","李坤城","洪孟楷","洪申翰","廖偉翔","吳思瑤","徐巧芯","鍾佳濱","謝龍介","吳沛憶","王育敏","何欣純","李彥秀","王定宇","羅智強"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2024-02-23"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00009","1130401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「民進黨政府執政八年臺灣食安問題總檢討」專案報告並備質詢─ 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00:01:43,702\n我們讓薛部長坐著好不好?因為薛部長實力真的還不錯。沒關係啦。兩位都坐著我都可以接受。坐著好了,因為薛部長時間還在照跑欸。院長我尊重你的才智啊,但你時間還給我照跑這樣不好啦。坐著打沒關係,因為你真的很不舒服的感覺好不好。院長你也請坐一下沒關係。沒關係我可以。反正內容一樣,好請繼續。我沒有要叫補充起來我就聽到你聲音怪怪。\n\n5\n00:01:46,844 --> 00:01:47,565\n現在的標準是什麼?\n\n6\n00:02:05,758 --> 00:02:24,965\n還是在地方政府做第一線。地方政府那個是行政程序,我講的是標準。實驗室做出什麼結果,在什麼狀態下要公佈於眾?目前的話並沒有一個特定的標準,所以還是要看這個布置的風險。第一個問題,就是我們現在面對又要快又要準。\n\n7\n00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:33,241\n我下一個問題是\n\n8\n00:02:55,573 --> 00:03:15,654\n縱使我們在實驗室我在寫論文控制組對照組我會不會這一個品項這一個單品我驗出來數值可以得到諾貝爾獎哇這數據嚇死人啊我就公佈當然不行要確認嘛是不可以這是科學問題這不是政治問題我現在檢驗一個東西\n\n9\n00:03:18,271 --> 00:03:37,381\n他的數據很驚人我不會急著公佈在論文上何況會引起大眾恐慌的數據我下一步應該怎麼做我應該在同類型的或同批次的東西再找一些來抽如果都是這樣子我可能發現新物種我可能發現新東西嘛\n\n10\n00:03:38,339 --> 00:04:01,086\n那如果我只有這個單一品項數據異常可是同一批次同一物種我現在講的是實驗室都跟他不一樣那我就開始要研究了到底是這個單項有病變還是我的實驗室流程有謬誤那有的還會用轉軸讓結果符合理論那個是不可取啦所以這個才是科學精神嘛對\n\n11\n00:04:02,858 --> 00:04:03,278\n你知道意思嗎?\n\n12\n00:04:22,751 --> 00:04:44,289\n我拿一塊肉原來已經有被汙染了,再拿到實驗室復驗,它還是那一塊肉,沒有來到同批次的對照嘛。那我要問的是,我看報宅我現在要從這邊證實,這一塊肉抽了22次,抽的方法有沒有一樣?\n\n13\n00:04:45,387 --> 00:04:45,407\n韓國瑜議員\n\n14\n00:05:08,773 --> 00:05:21,717\n這就是一次做出來的差異太大了,差十幾倍嘛。對,我們在實驗室齁,如果同一個物件,一個object,如果落差超過35%,這個數據我可不可以寫在論文裡面。\n\n15\n00:05:27,112 --> 00:05:51,679\n這個我想這是不正確的啦。這是有問題的嘛。對,不正確的數字。我們現在講到這裡我並沒有特別去講是地方的問題、中央的問題。它是一個科學驗證的問題。如果食藥署同一塊肉,你都驗了22次,數據的落差超過35%,前後數據高達十幾倍的不一樣。作為一個科學實驗人員,你馬上腦袋想的是這個數據有問題,我不能馬上公佈出去。\n\n16\n00:05:54,480 --> 00:06:14,348\n因為馬上公佈出去他會從科學問題變心理恐慌問題我完全同意這件事情是這個樣子嘛那一塊肉那一包肉就只有那一包對他確實驗出是基布特羅為什麼有我們待會再研究他驗出之後同一塊同一個同一包肉\n\n17\n00:06:15,762 --> 00:06:37,163\n打碎了兩次驗了22次落差10多倍單一數據的落差超過35%這不是民進黨說的算也不是國民黨說的算不是藍綠牌的問題可以去問全台灣所有實驗室不管是台大、成大任何實驗室這樣的數據能不能拿來當作論文的數據何況是拿來公佈於眾\n\n18\n00:06:39,369 --> 00:07:05,734\n所以我第二個問題是怎麼樣的數據可以公佈除了那個數值的PPB以外這個數據的流程對照組控制組橫向的檢驗到怎麼樣的狀況我要最快速度最正確的時候有了這個有威脅公佈於眾大家不要吃不要用這才對嘛那就這個階段的質詢到目前為止\n\n19\n00:07:06,922 --> 00:07:10,979\n這一次數據的第一時間公布有沒有符合科學精神?\n\n20\n00:07:12,838 --> 00:07:41,197\n因為他的差距很大然後都沒有再doublecheck所以我們剛才才講說怎麼樣找到正確的數字再公布那因為他本身就有很大的range那他到底去挑哪一個數字那就高興隨著高興挑也不正確所以在當時應該是在做另外一個應該要同一批肉同一頭豬同一雞產出來肉其他部位抽一抽看有沒有才來決定\n\n21\n00:07:42,597 --> 00:08:10,462\n對到底是系統性問題要公佈於眾如果如同盧秀燕市長所說的是個案問題你公佈於眾會產生什麼問題我待會先農業部長有來嗎那個陳俊基代部長先上來我把問題繼續往下推就是說那一包肉按照科學的原則他的數據這樣的公佈到底是科學決定還是政治決定\n\n22\n00:08:12,244 --> 00:08:34,130\n我個人打個問號我也不讓院長回答我認為那個決定在科學的公佈上其實是有一定的問題我有關院長跟這個部長最後一個問題要問的是目前經過其實那是毒澱粉之後我們台南統一企業弄了一個食安辦公室他有經過國際認證嗎\n\n23\n00:08:36,141 --> 00:09:02,123\n然後另外SGS是民間的他的食品實驗室也經過國際認證嘛另外我們的這個我們中央單位有一個續產社那個也經過國際認證嘛這三個國際認證然後加上我們地方政府不管國民黨執政民進黨執政的地方政府的實驗室抽驗從所有的肉品\n\n24\n00:09:03,411 --> 00:09:28,003\n從豬的血液到毛髮到同批次的產品抽驗到現在萊克多巴胺跟西部特羅有沒有驗出?沒有。零。所以我們幾乎可以斷定就只有臺中市食安處的那一包肉有驗出來了而且經過中央食藥署復驗他確實有嘛就只有那一包肉所以盧秀燕市長其實定義的不錯他說這是個案我個人\n\n25\n00:09:28,796 --> 00:09:43,701\n對於過年前他講這次個案我表示佩服因為他講個案至少把衝擊降低一點對很多人減少影響那那個薛部長你先回去休息啦好了那個公佈的過程我們希望亡羊補牢就是建構\n\n26\n00:09:45,311 --> 00:10:08,071\n發布的標準,特別是經常使用的米麵、澱粉等等,它要多少PPB,然後實驗流程要經過什麼樣的程序,然後確認為系統性問題才應該公佈於眾,否則食安會從科學問題因為隨意的違反科學準則去公佈,它從科學問題變成心理恐慌問題。\n\n27\n00:10:09,735 --> 00:10:10,035\n我要請教農業部\n\n28\n00:10:37,034 --> 00:10:53,200\n農部有沒有統計我們農曆春節前本土豬肉的交易量交易產值是多少?我想我們在農曆的過去我講過我先不講今年的以往過往的時候大概是在85塊的上下那從80到85之間一斤85塊對一公斤百公斤一公斤85塊一公斤85塊這一次因為這個事件有沒有波動?\n\n29\n00:11:02,130 --> 00:11:22,455\n我們在監測的他整個過程裡面吼春節就是2月2號到春節那個收市之前是平均是90.8元90.8元但是春節後以後他有不同的不同的因素讓他的價格現在是86平均是86作為農業部的部長你認為這一次西布特羅的事件從一開始發布\n\n30\n00:11:23,575 --> 00:11:24,976\n部長,如果到現在還沒有精算的話,農業部這樣不行喔?\n\n31\n00:11:48,592 --> 00:12:11,149\n你懂我意思嗎?我知道我今天面對這個事情消費者我要保護是供應者就豬農攤販豬肉販傳統市場我都要保護是而有關豬肉這一塊我若是農家部我一定馬上統計今年的因為價格我不會認為是唯一的指標我把數量縮減價格就服了嘛我的意思說以往春節也許比方說一萬斤\n\n32\n00:12:12,330 --> 00:12:25,620\n今年有沒有變成9000斤5000斤然後呢因為這樣的價格或土宅量會不會減少這是農業部的責任你應該統計出來告訴我們說這個消息出來我們今年的本土豬\n\n33\n00:12:27,312 --> 00:12:27,992\n對,我們已經持續在跟那個豬場的這些做一個統計。\n\n34\n00:12:55,704 --> 00:13:23,558\n包括他的那個每一天的批發量大概是2.4萬到2.2萬之間那我們跟去年同期在比較去找出一個去年比較有沒有波動他的波動以價格來講反而比去年高一點但是不能這樣算因為還有成本的問題對還有成本的問題對還有成本的問題還有供應量的問題所以我剛才說我們現在還在做這樣的一個收集這一年來飼料漲價了不能用價格判斷影響對不能用這樣比\n\n35\n00:13:25,639 --> 00:13:48,096\n對你們量有沒有波動有沒有算出來對我們現在的量齁從去年大概2.4萬噸齁大概春節期間那我們今年的話大概是2.2萬噸齁要減才會兩千對但是他的每一頭豬的重量齁比去年還高所以整體的重量來講齁我們現在還在處理你這樣子的數據齁因為你在講要回個格齁簡單來講\n\n36\n00:13:50,353 --> 00:14:06,537\n一、因為他說單一重量加高所以投訴減少。是。重量也減少。那這到底是不是因為這個影響你們去統計。對。就是說價格的高低會跟供應量跟飼料成本有關係。對。但目前我從你剛才的數據聽起來投訴的規價低齁台規價低。對。數量有減少。對。\n\n37\n00:14:09,298 --> 00:14:31,149\n然後總供應的重量數從2.4萬噸降到2.2萬噸數量也有減少,那這個到底是什麼因素導致我不王家定論,榮業部應該要給答案。我最後再請教部長,那如果院長如果知道的話就回答了,不知道的話薛部長你就比較辛苦了。台中那一包肉如果現在是唯一的一包肉有西部特羅,\n\n38\n00:14:32,779 --> 00:14:49,352\n對他到底是從哪裡取回實驗室的一般都去市場取樣嗎他是在台中的一個國軍的這個福利社的這個國軍的那個副使的供應中心那一個供應商其他的肉你們有沒有去驗過他現在\n\n39\n00:14:52,654 --> 00:15:15,661\n我們所了解齁他他取樣的時候針對台糖那一批履歷的那一批齁大概是兩包一包是梅花肉一包是餃子驗完還是只有那一包其他沒有其他沒有縱使在國軍供應站副時供應站就那一包肉有那拿回來之後是誰做檢驗的你們有掌握人嗎就裡面的\n\n40\n00:15:16,533 --> 00:15:17,674\n因為只有在一個實驗室裡面的一塊肉檢驗得到,所以我們一定要從\n\n41\n00:15:50,784 --> 00:15:52,906\n好謝謝王委員定宇的質詢謝謝陳建仁院長謝謝接下來我們請登記第15號羅委員志強質詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n878\t28301\t謝謝院長,麻煩陳建仁院長。再請陳院長備詢。我想食安應該是一個科學問題。但食安如果用太多的政治口水,它會變心理恐慌問題。所以我們政府面對食安有點像衛生紙,衛生紙夠不夠它是經濟問題。\n29997\t48699\t大家都在搶衛生紙心理的恐慌他反而也會造成造就問題所以我盡量不用政治方面來討論下列的事情我先請教一個基本的事情當我們發現有食安的威脅的時候我們發布就是公佈於眾的標準\n50060\t51881\t王元定我容許我答\n78444\t103702\t我們讓薛部長坐著好不好?因為薛部長實力真的還不錯。沒關係啦。兩位都坐著我都可以接受。坐著好了,因為薛部長時間還在照跑欸。院長我尊重你的才智啊,但你時間還給我照跑這樣不好啦。坐著打沒關係,因為你真的很不舒服的感覺好不好。院長你也請坐一下沒關係。沒關係我可以。反正內容一樣,好請繼續。我沒有要叫補充起來我就聽到你聲音怪怪。\n106844\t107565\t現在的標準是什麼?\n125758\t144965\t還是在地方政府做第一線。地方政府那個是行政程序,我講的是標準。實驗室做出什麼結果,在什麼狀態下要公佈於眾?目前的話並沒有一個特定的標準,所以還是要看這個布置的風險。第一個問題,就是我們現在面對又要快又要準。\n152680\t153241\t我下一個問題是\n175573\t195654\t縱使我們在實驗室我在寫論文控制組對照組我會不會這一個品項這一個單品我驗出來數值可以得到諾貝爾獎哇這數據嚇死人啊我就公佈當然不行要確認嘛是不可以這是科學問題這不是政治問題我現在檢驗一個東西\n198271\t217381\t他的數據很驚人我不會急著公佈在論文上何況會引起大眾恐慌的數據我下一步應該怎麼做我應該在同類型的或同批次的東西再找一些來抽如果都是這樣子我可能發現新物種我可能發現新東西嘛\n218339\t241086\t那如果我只有這個單一品項數據異常可是同一批次同一物種我現在講的是實驗室都跟他不一樣那我就開始要研究了到底是這個單項有病變還是我的實驗室流程有謬誤那有的還會用轉軸讓結果符合理論那個是不可取啦所以這個才是科學精神嘛對\n242858\t243278\t你知道意思嗎?\n262751\t284289\t我拿一塊肉原來已經有被汙染了,再拿到實驗室復驗,它還是那一塊肉,沒有來到同批次的對照嘛。那我要問的是,我看報宅我現在要從這邊證實,這一塊肉抽了22次,抽的方法有沒有一樣?\n285387\t285407\t韓國瑜議員\n308773\t321717\t這就是一次做出來的差異太大了,差十幾倍嘛。對,我們在實驗室齁,如果同一個物件,一個object,如果落差超過35%,這個數據我可不可以寫在論文裡面。\n327112\t351679\t這個我想這是不正確的啦。這是有問題的嘛。對,不正確的數字。我們現在講到這裡我並沒有特別去講是地方的問題、中央的問題。它是一個科學驗證的問題。如果食藥署同一塊肉,你都驗了22次,數據的落差超過35%,前後數據高達十幾倍的不一樣。作為一個科學實驗人員,你馬上腦袋想的是這個數據有問題,我不能馬上公佈出去。\n354480\t374348\t因為馬上公佈出去他會從科學問題變心理恐慌問題我完全同意這件事情是這個樣子嘛那一塊肉那一包肉就只有那一包對他確實驗出是基布特羅為什麼有我們待會再研究他驗出之後同一塊同一個同一包肉\n375762\t397163\t打碎了兩次驗了22次落差10多倍單一數據的落差超過35%這不是民進黨說的算也不是國民黨說的算不是藍綠牌的問題可以去問全台灣所有實驗室不管是台大、成大任何實驗室這樣的數據能不能拿來當作論文的數據何況是拿來公佈於眾\n399369\t425734\t所以我第二個問題是怎麼樣的數據可以公佈除了那個數值的PPB以外這個數據的流程對照組控制組橫向的檢驗到怎麼樣的狀況我要最快速度最正確的時候有了這個有威脅公佈於眾大家不要吃不要用這才對嘛那就這個階段的質詢到目前為止\n426922\t430979\t這一次數據的第一時間公布有沒有符合科學精神?\n432838\t461197\t因為他的差距很大然後都沒有再double check所以我們剛才才講說怎麼樣找到正確的數字再公布那因為他本身就有很大的range那他到底去挑哪一個數字那就高興隨著高興挑也不正確所以在當時應該是在做另外一個應該要同一批肉同一頭豬同一雞產出來肉其他部位抽一抽看有沒有才來決定\n462597\t490462\t對到底是系統性問題要公佈於眾如果如同盧秀燕市長所說的是個案問題你公佈於眾會產生什麼問題我待會先農業部長有來嗎那個陳俊基代部長先上來我把問題繼續往下推就是說那一包肉按照科學的原則他的數據這樣的公佈到底是科學決定還是政治決定\n492244\t514130\t我個人打個問號我也不讓院長回答我認為那個決定在科學的公佈上其實是有一定的問題我有關院長跟這個部長最後一個問題要問的是目前經過其實那是毒澱粉之後我們台南統一企業弄了一個食安辦公室他有經過國際認證嗎\n516141\t542123\t然後另外SGS是民間的他的食品實驗室也經過國際認證嘛另外我們的這個我們中央單位有一個續產社那個也經過國際認證嘛這三個國際認證然後加上我們地方政府不管國民黨執政民進黨執政的地方政府的實驗室抽驗從所有的肉品\n543411\t568003\t從豬的血液到毛髮到同批次的產品抽驗到現在萊克多巴胺跟西部特羅有沒有驗出?沒有。零。所以我們幾乎可以斷定就只有臺中市食安處的那一包肉有驗出來了而且經過中央食藥署復驗他確實有嘛就只有那一包肉所以盧秀燕市長其實定義的不錯他說這是個案我個人\n568796\t583701\t對於過年前他講這次個案我表示佩服因為他講個案至少把衝擊降低一點對很多人減少影響那那個薛部長你先回去休息啦好了那個公佈的過程我們希望亡羊補牢就是建構\n585311\t608071\t發布的標準,特別是經常使用的米麵、澱粉等等,它要多少PPB,然後實驗流程要經過什麼樣的程序,然後確認為系統性問題才應該公佈於眾,否則食安會從科學問題因為隨意的違反科學準則去公佈,它從科學問題變成心理恐慌問題。\n609735\t610035\t我要請教農業部\n637034\t653200\t農部有沒有統計我們農曆春節前本土豬肉的交易量交易產值是多少?我想我們在農曆的過去我講過我先不講今年的以往過往的時候大概是在85塊的上下那從80到85之間一斤85塊對一公斤百公斤一公斤85塊一公斤85塊這一次因為這個事件有沒有波動?\n662130\t682455\t我們在監測的他整個過程裡面吼春節就是2月2號到春節那個收市之前是平均是90.8元90.8元但是春節後以後他有不同的不同的因素讓他的價格現在是86平均是86作為農業部的部長你認為這一次西布特羅的事件從一開始發布\n683575\t684976\t部長,如果到現在還沒有精算的話,農業部這樣不行喔?\n708592\t731149\t你懂我意思嗎?我知道我今天面對這個事情消費者我要保護是供應者就豬農攤販豬肉販傳統市場我都要保護是而有關豬肉這一塊我若是農家部我一定馬上統計今年的因為價格我不會認為是唯一的指標我把數量縮減價格就服了嘛我的意思說以往春節也許比方說一萬斤\n732330\t745620\t今年有沒有變成9000斤5000斤然後呢因為這樣的價格或土宅量會不會減少這是農業部的責任你應該統計出來告訴我們說這個消息出來我們今年的本土豬\n747312\t747992\t對,我們已經持續在跟那個豬場的這些做一個統計。\n775704\t803558\t包括他的那個每一天的批發量大概是2.4萬到2.2萬之間那我們跟去年同期在比較去找出一個去年比較有沒有波動他的波動以價格來講反而比去年高一點但是不能這樣算因為還有成本的問題對還有成本的問題對還有成本的問題還有供應量的問題所以我剛才說我們現在還在做這樣的一個收集這一年來飼料漲價了不能用價格判斷影響對不能用這樣比\n805639\t828096\t對你們量有沒有波動有沒有算出來對我們現在的量齁從去年大概2.4萬噸齁大概春節期間那我們今年的話大概是2.2萬噸齁要減才會兩千對但是他的每一頭豬的重量齁比去年還高所以整體的重量來講齁我們現在還在處理你這樣子的數據齁因為你在講要回個格齁簡單來講\n830353\t846537\t一、因為他說單一重量加高所以投訴減少。 是。 重量也減少。那這到底是不是因為這個影響你們去統計。 對。 就是說價格的高低會跟供應量跟飼料成本有關係。 對。 但目前我從你剛才的數據聽起來投訴的規價低齁台規價低。 對。 數量有減少。 對。\n849298\t871149\t然後總供應的重量數從2.4萬噸降到2.2萬噸數量也有減少,那這個到底是什麼因素導致我不王家定論,榮業部應該要給答案。我最後再請教部長,那如果院長如果知道的話就回答了,不知道的話薛部長你就比較辛苦了。台中那一包肉如果現在是唯一的一包肉有西部特羅,\n872779\t889352\t對他到底是從哪裡取回實驗室的一般都去市場取樣嗎他是在台中的一個國軍的這個福利社的這個國軍的那個副使的供應中心那一個供應商其他的肉你們有沒有去驗過他現在\n892654\t915661\t我們所了解齁他他取樣的時候針對台糖那一批履歷的那一批齁大概是兩包一包是梅花肉一包是餃子驗完還是只有那一包其他沒有其他沒有縱使在國軍供應站副時供應站就那一包肉有那拿回來之後是誰做檢驗的你們有掌握人嗎就裡面的\n916533\t917674\t因為只有在一個實驗室裡面的一塊肉檢驗得到,所以我們一定要從\n950784\t952906\t好謝謝王委員定宇的質詢謝謝陳建仁院長謝謝接下來我們請登記第15號羅委員志強質詢\n","txt":"謝謝院長,麻煩陳建仁院長。再請陳院長備詢。我想食安應該是一個科學問題。但食安如果用太多的政治口水,它會變心理恐慌問題。所以我們政府面對食安有點像衛生紙,衛生紙夠不夠它是經濟問題。\n大家都在搶衛生紙心理的恐慌他反而也會造成造就問題所以我盡量不用政治方面來討論下列的事情我先請教一個基本的事情當我們發現有食安的威脅的時候我們發布就是公佈於眾的標準\n王元定我容許我答\n我們讓薛部長坐著好不好?因為薛部長實力真的還不錯。沒關係啦。兩位都坐著我都可以接受。坐著好了,因為薛部長時間還在照跑欸。院長我尊重你的才智啊,但你時間還給我照跑這樣不好啦。坐著打沒關係,因為你真的很不舒服的感覺好不好。院長你也請坐一下沒關係。沒關係我可以。反正內容一樣,好請繼續。我沒有要叫補充起來我就聽到你聲音怪怪。\n現在的標準是什麼?\n還是在地方政府做第一線。地方政府那個是行政程序,我講的是標準。實驗室做出什麼結果,在什麼狀態下要公佈於眾?目前的話並沒有一個特定的標準,所以還是要看這個布置的風險。第一個問題,就是我們現在面對又要快又要準。\n我下一個問題是\n縱使我們在實驗室我在寫論文控制組對照組我會不會這一個品項這一個單品我驗出來數值可以得到諾貝爾獎哇這數據嚇死人啊我就公佈當然不行要確認嘛是不可以這是科學問題這不是政治問題我現在檢驗一個東西\n他的數據很驚人我不會急著公佈在論文上何況會引起大眾恐慌的數據我下一步應該怎麼做我應該在同類型的或同批次的東西再找一些來抽如果都是這樣子我可能發現新物種我可能發現新東西嘛\n那如果我只有這個單一品項數據異常可是同一批次同一物種我現在講的是實驗室都跟他不一樣那我就開始要研究了到底是這個單項有病變還是我的實驗室流程有謬誤那有的還會用轉軸讓結果符合理論那個是不可取啦所以這個才是科學精神嘛對\n你知道意思嗎?\n我拿一塊肉原來已經有被汙染了,再拿到實驗室復驗,它還是那一塊肉,沒有來到同批次的對照嘛。那我要問的是,我看報宅我現在要從這邊證實,這一塊肉抽了22次,抽的方法有沒有一樣?\n韓國瑜議員\n這就是一次做出來的差異太大了,差十幾倍嘛。對,我們在實驗室齁,如果同一個物件,一個object,如果落差超過35%,這個數據我可不可以寫在論文裡面。\n這個我想這是不正確的啦。這是有問題的嘛。對,不正確的數字。我們現在講到這裡我並沒有特別去講是地方的問題、中央的問題。它是一個科學驗證的問題。如果食藥署同一塊肉,你都驗了22次,數據的落差超過35%,前後數據高達十幾倍的不一樣。作為一個科學實驗人員,你馬上腦袋想的是這個數據有問題,我不能馬上公佈出去。\n因為馬上公佈出去他會從科學問題變心理恐慌問題我完全同意這件事情是這個樣子嘛那一塊肉那一包肉就只有那一包對他確實驗出是基布特羅為什麼有我們待會再研究他驗出之後同一塊同一個同一包肉\n打碎了兩次驗了22次落差10多倍單一數據的落差超過35%這不是民進黨說的算也不是國民黨說的算不是藍綠牌的問題可以去問全台灣所有實驗室不管是台大、成大任何實驗室這樣的數據能不能拿來當作論文的數據何況是拿來公佈於眾\n所以我第二個問題是怎麼樣的數據可以公佈除了那個數值的PPB以外這個數據的流程對照組控制組橫向的檢驗到怎麼樣的狀況我要最快速度最正確的時候有了這個有威脅公佈於眾大家不要吃不要用這才對嘛那就這個階段的質詢到目前為止\n這一次數據的第一時間公布有沒有符合科學精神?\n因為他的差距很大然後都沒有再double check所以我們剛才才講說怎麼樣找到正確的數字再公布那因為他本身就有很大的range那他到底去挑哪一個數字那就高興隨著高興挑也不正確所以在當時應該是在做另外一個應該要同一批肉同一頭豬同一雞產出來肉其他部位抽一抽看有沒有才來決定\n對到底是系統性問題要公佈於眾如果如同盧秀燕市長所說的是個案問題你公佈於眾會產生什麼問題我待會先農業部長有來嗎那個陳俊基代部長先上來我把問題繼續往下推就是說那一包肉按照科學的原則他的數據這樣的公佈到底是科學決定還是政治決定\n我個人打個問號我也不讓院長回答我認為那個決定在科學的公佈上其實是有一定的問題我有關院長跟這個部長最後一個問題要問的是目前經過其實那是毒澱粉之後我們台南統一企業弄了一個食安辦公室他有經過國際認證嗎\n然後另外SGS是民間的他的食品實驗室也經過國際認證嘛另外我們的這個我們中央單位有一個續產社那個也經過國際認證嘛這三個國際認證然後加上我們地方政府不管國民黨執政民進黨執政的地方政府的實驗室抽驗從所有的肉品\n從豬的血液到毛髮到同批次的產品抽驗到現在萊克多巴胺跟西部特羅有沒有驗出?沒有。零。所以我們幾乎可以斷定就只有臺中市食安處的那一包肉有驗出來了而且經過中央食藥署復驗他確實有嘛就只有那一包肉所以盧秀燕市長其實定義的不錯他說這是個案我個人\n對於過年前他講這次個案我表示佩服因為他講個案至少把衝擊降低一點對很多人減少影響那那個薛部長你先回去休息啦好了那個公佈的過程我們希望亡羊補牢就是建構\n發布的標準,特別是經常使用的米麵、澱粉等等,它要多少PPB,然後實驗流程要經過什麼樣的程序,然後確認為系統性問題才應該公佈於眾,否則食安會從科學問題因為隨意的違反科學準則去公佈,它從科學問題變成心理恐慌問題。\n我要請教農業部\n農部有沒有統計我們農曆春節前本土豬肉的交易量交易產值是多少?我想我們在農曆的過去我講過我先不講今年的以往過往的時候大概是在85塊的上下那從80到85之間一斤85塊對一公斤百公斤一公斤85塊一公斤85塊這一次因為這個事件有沒有波動?\n我們在監測的他整個過程裡面吼春節就是2月2號到春節那個收市之前是平均是90.8元90.8元但是春節後以後他有不同的不同的因素讓他的價格現在是86平均是86作為農業部的部長你認為這一次西布特羅的事件從一開始發布\n部長,如果到現在還沒有精算的話,農業部這樣不行喔?\n你懂我意思嗎?我知道我今天面對這個事情消費者我要保護是供應者就豬農攤販豬肉販傳統市場我都要保護是而有關豬肉這一塊我若是農家部我一定馬上統計今年的因為價格我不會認為是唯一的指標我把數量縮減價格就服了嘛我的意思說以往春節也許比方說一萬斤\n今年有沒有變成9000斤5000斤然後呢因為這樣的價格或土宅量會不會減少這是農業部的責任你應該統計出來告訴我們說這個消息出來我們今年的本土豬\n對,我們已經持續在跟那個豬場的這些做一個統計。\n包括他的那個每一天的批發量大概是2.4萬到2.2萬之間那我們跟去年同期在比較去找出一個去年比較有沒有波動他的波動以價格來講反而比去年高一點但是不能這樣算因為還有成本的問題對還有成本的問題對還有成本的問題還有供應量的問題所以我剛才說我們現在還在做這樣的一個收集這一年來飼料漲價了不能用價格判斷影響對不能用這樣比\n對你們量有沒有波動有沒有算出來對我們現在的量齁從去年大概2.4萬噸齁大概春節期間那我們今年的話大概是2.2萬噸齁要減才會兩千對但是他的每一頭豬的重量齁比去年還高所以整體的重量來講齁我們現在還在處理你這樣子的數據齁因為你在講要回個格齁簡單來講\n一、因為他說單一重量加高所以投訴減少。 是。 重量也減少。那這到底是不是因為這個影響你們去統計。 對。 就是說價格的高低會跟供應量跟飼料成本有關係。 對。 但目前我從你剛才的數據聽起來投訴的規價低齁台規價低。 對。 數量有減少。 對。\n然後總供應的重量數從2.4萬噸降到2.2萬噸數量也有減少,那這個到底是什麼因素導致我不王家定論,榮業部應該要給答案。我最後再請教部長,那如果院長如果知道的話就回答了,不知道的話薛部長你就比較辛苦了。台中那一包肉如果現在是唯一的一包肉有西部特羅,\n對他到底是從哪裡取回實驗室的一般都去市場取樣嗎他是在台中的一個國軍的這個福利社的這個國軍的那個副使的供應中心那一個供應商其他的肉你們有沒有去驗過他現在\n我們所了解齁他他取樣的時候針對台糖那一批履歷的那一批齁大概是兩包一包是梅花肉一包是餃子驗完還是只有那一包其他沒有其他沒有縱使在國軍供應站副時供應站就那一包肉有那拿回來之後是誰做檢驗的你們有掌握人嗎就裡面的\n因為只有在一個實驗室裡面的一塊肉檢驗得到,所以我們一定要從\n好謝謝王委員定宇的質詢謝謝陳建仁院長謝謝接下來我們請登記第15號羅委員志強質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.878 --> 00:28.301\n謝謝院長,麻煩陳建仁院長。再請陳院長備詢。我想食安應該是一個科學問題。但食安如果用太多的政治口水,它會變心理恐慌問題。所以我們政府面對食安有點像衛生紙,衛生紙夠不夠它是經濟問題。\n\n00:29.997 --> 00:48.699\n大家都在搶衛生紙心理的恐慌他反而也會造成造就問題所以我盡量不用政治方面來討論下列的事情我先請教一個基本的事情當我們發現有食安的威脅的時候我們發布就是公佈於眾的標準\n\n00:50.060 --> 00:51.881\n王元定我容許我答\n\n01:18.444 --> 01:43.702\n我們讓薛部長坐著好不好?因為薛部長實力真的還不錯。沒關係啦。兩位都坐著我都可以接受。坐著好了,因為薛部長時間還在照跑欸。院長我尊重你的才智啊,但你時間還給我照跑這樣不好啦。坐著打沒關係,因為你真的很不舒服的感覺好不好。院長你也請坐一下沒關係。沒關係我可以。反正內容一樣,好請繼續。我沒有要叫補充起來我就聽到你聲音怪怪。\n\n01:46.844 --> 01:47.565\n現在的標準是什麼?\n\n02:05.758 --> 02:24.965\n還是在地方政府做第一線。地方政府那個是行政程序,我講的是標準。實驗室做出什麼結果,在什麼狀態下要公佈於眾?目前的話並沒有一個特定的標準,所以還是要看這個布置的風險。第一個問題,就是我們現在面對又要快又要準。\n\n02:32.680 --> 02:33.241\n我下一個問題是\n\n02:55.573 --> 03:15.654\n縱使我們在實驗室我在寫論文控制組對照組我會不會這一個品項這一個單品我驗出來數值可以得到諾貝爾獎哇這數據嚇死人啊我就公佈當然不行要確認嘛是不可以這是科學問題這不是政治問題我現在檢驗一個東西\n\n03:18.271 --> 03:37.381\n他的數據很驚人我不會急著公佈在論文上何況會引起大眾恐慌的數據我下一步應該怎麼做我應該在同類型的或同批次的東西再找一些來抽如果都是這樣子我可能發現新物種我可能發現新東西嘛\n\n03:38.339 --> 04:01.086\n那如果我只有這個單一品項數據異常可是同一批次同一物種我現在講的是實驗室都跟他不一樣那我就開始要研究了到底是這個單項有病變還是我的實驗室流程有謬誤那有的還會用轉軸讓結果符合理論那個是不可取啦所以這個才是科學精神嘛對\n\n04:02.858 --> 04:03.278\n你知道意思嗎?\n\n04:22.751 --> 04:44.289\n我拿一塊肉原來已經有被汙染了,再拿到實驗室復驗,它還是那一塊肉,沒有來到同批次的對照嘛。那我要問的是,我看報宅我現在要從這邊證實,這一塊肉抽了22次,抽的方法有沒有一樣?\n\n04:45.387 --> 04:45.407\n韓國瑜議員\n\n05:08.773 --> 05:21.717\n這就是一次做出來的差異太大了,差十幾倍嘛。對,我們在實驗室齁,如果同一個物件,一個object,如果落差超過35%,這個數據我可不可以寫在論文裡面。\n\n05:27.112 --> 05:51.679\n這個我想這是不正確的啦。這是有問題的嘛。對,不正確的數字。我們現在講到這裡我並沒有特別去講是地方的問題、中央的問題。它是一個科學驗證的問題。如果食藥署同一塊肉,你都驗了22次,數據的落差超過35%,前後數據高達十幾倍的不一樣。作為一個科學實驗人員,你馬上腦袋想的是這個數據有問題,我不能馬上公佈出去。\n\n05:54.480 --> 06:14.348\n因為馬上公佈出去他會從科學問題變心理恐慌問題我完全同意這件事情是這個樣子嘛那一塊肉那一包肉就只有那一包對他確實驗出是基布特羅為什麼有我們待會再研究他驗出之後同一塊同一個同一包肉\n\n06:15.762 --> 06:37.163\n打碎了兩次驗了22次落差10多倍單一數據的落差超過35%這不是民進黨說的算也不是國民黨說的算不是藍綠牌的問題可以去問全台灣所有實驗室不管是台大、成大任何實驗室這樣的數據能不能拿來當作論文的數據何況是拿來公佈於眾\n\n06:39.369 --> 07:05.734\n所以我第二個問題是怎麼樣的數據可以公佈除了那個數值的PPB以外這個數據的流程對照組控制組橫向的檢驗到怎麼樣的狀況我要最快速度最正確的時候有了這個有威脅公佈於眾大家不要吃不要用這才對嘛那就這個階段的質詢到目前為止\n\n07:06.922 --> 07:10.979\n這一次數據的第一時間公布有沒有符合科學精神?\n\n07:12.838 --> 07:41.197\n因為他的差距很大然後都沒有再doublecheck所以我們剛才才講說怎麼樣找到正確的數字再公布那因為他本身就有很大的range那他到底去挑哪一個數字那就高興隨著高興挑也不正確所以在當時應該是在做另外一個應該要同一批肉同一頭豬同一雞產出來肉其他部位抽一抽看有沒有才來決定\n\n07:42.597 --> 08:10.462\n對到底是系統性問題要公佈於眾如果如同盧秀燕市長所說的是個案問題你公佈於眾會產生什麼問題我待會先農業部長有來嗎那個陳俊基代部長先上來我把問題繼續往下推就是說那一包肉按照科學的原則他的數據這樣的公佈到底是科學決定還是政治決定\n\n08:12.244 --> 08:34.130\n我個人打個問號我也不讓院長回答我認為那個決定在科學的公佈上其實是有一定的問題我有關院長跟這個部長最後一個問題要問的是目前經過其實那是毒澱粉之後我們台南統一企業弄了一個食安辦公室他有經過國際認證嗎\n\n08:36.141 --> 09:02.123\n然後另外SGS是民間的他的食品實驗室也經過國際認證嘛另外我們的這個我們中央單位有一個續產社那個也經過國際認證嘛這三個國際認證然後加上我們地方政府不管國民黨執政民進黨執政的地方政府的實驗室抽驗從所有的肉品\n\n09:03.411 --> 09:28.003\n從豬的血液到毛髮到同批次的產品抽驗到現在萊克多巴胺跟西部特羅有沒有驗出?沒有。零。所以我們幾乎可以斷定就只有臺中市食安處的那一包肉有驗出來了而且經過中央食藥署復驗他確實有嘛就只有那一包肉所以盧秀燕市長其實定義的不錯他說這是個案我個人\n\n09:28.796 --> 09:43.701\n對於過年前他講這次個案我表示佩服因為他講個案至少把衝擊降低一點對很多人減少影響那那個薛部長你先回去休息啦好了那個公佈的過程我們希望亡羊補牢就是建構\n\n09:45.311 --> 10:08.071\n發布的標準,特別是經常使用的米麵、澱粉等等,它要多少PPB,然後實驗流程要經過什麼樣的程序,然後確認為系統性問題才應該公佈於眾,否則食安會從科學問題因為隨意的違反科學準則去公佈,它從科學問題變成心理恐慌問題。\n\n10:09.735 --> 10:10.035\n我要請教農業部\n\n10:37.034 --> 10:53.200\n農部有沒有統計我們農曆春節前本土豬肉的交易量交易產值是多少?我想我們在農曆的過去我講過我先不講今年的以往過往的時候大概是在85塊的上下那從80到85之間一斤85塊對一公斤百公斤一公斤85塊一公斤85塊這一次因為這個事件有沒有波動?\n\n11:02.130 --> 11:22.455\n我們在監測的他整個過程裡面吼春節就是2月2號到春節那個收市之前是平均是90.8元90.8元但是春節後以後他有不同的不同的因素讓他的價格現在是86平均是86作為農業部的部長你認為這一次西布特羅的事件從一開始發布\n\n11:23.575 --> 11:24.976\n部長,如果到現在還沒有精算的話,農業部這樣不行喔?\n\n11:48.592 --> 12:11.149\n你懂我意思嗎?我知道我今天面對這個事情消費者我要保護是供應者就豬農攤販豬肉販傳統市場我都要保護是而有關豬肉這一塊我若是農家部我一定馬上統計今年的因為價格我不會認為是唯一的指標我把數量縮減價格就服了嘛我的意思說以往春節也許比方說一萬斤\n\n12:12.330 --> 12:25.620\n今年有沒有變成9000斤5000斤然後呢因為這樣的價格或土宅量會不會減少這是農業部的責任你應該統計出來告訴我們說這個消息出來我們今年的本土豬\n\n12:27.312 --> 12:27.992\n對,我們已經持續在跟那個豬場的這些做一個統計。\n\n12:55.704 --> 13:23.558\n包括他的那個每一天的批發量大概是2.4萬到2.2萬之間那我們跟去年同期在比較去找出一個去年比較有沒有波動他的波動以價格來講反而比去年高一點但是不能這樣算因為還有成本的問題對還有成本的問題對還有成本的問題還有供應量的問題所以我剛才說我們現在還在做這樣的一個收集這一年來飼料漲價了不能用價格判斷影響對不能用這樣比\n\n13:25.639 --> 13:48.096\n對你們量有沒有波動有沒有算出來對我們現在的量齁從去年大概2.4萬噸齁大概春節期間那我們今年的話大概是2.2萬噸齁要減才會兩千對但是他的每一頭豬的重量齁比去年還高所以整體的重量來講齁我們現在還在處理你這樣子的數據齁因為你在講要回個格齁簡單來講\n\n13:50.353 --> 14:06.537\n一、因為他說單一重量加高所以投訴減少。是。重量也減少。那這到底是不是因為這個影響你們去統計。對。就是說價格的高低會跟供應量跟飼料成本有關係。對。但目前我從你剛才的數據聽起來投訴的規價低齁台規價低。對。數量有減少。對。\n\n14:09.298 --> 14:31.149\n然後總供應的重量數從2.4萬噸降到2.2萬噸數量也有減少,那這個到底是什麼因素導致我不王家定論,榮業部應該要給答案。我最後再請教部長,那如果院長如果知道的話就回答了,不知道的話薛部長你就比較辛苦了。台中那一包肉如果現在是唯一的一包肉有西部特羅,\n\n14:32.779 --> 14:49.352\n對他到底是從哪裡取回實驗室的一般都去市場取樣嗎他是在台中的一個國軍的這個福利社的這個國軍的那個副使的供應中心那一個供應商其他的肉你們有沒有去驗過他現在\n\n14:52.654 --> 15:15.661\n我們所了解齁他他取樣的時候針對台糖那一批履歷的那一批齁大概是兩包一包是梅花肉一包是餃子驗完還是只有那一包其他沒有其他沒有縱使在國軍供應站副時供應站就那一包肉有那拿回來之後是誰做檢驗的你們有掌握人嗎就裡面的\n\n15:16.533 --> 15:17.674\n因為只有在一個實驗室裡面的一塊肉檢驗得到,所以我們一定要從\n\n15:50.784 --> 15:52.906\n好謝謝王委員定宇的質詢謝謝陳建仁院長謝謝接下來我們請登記第15號羅委員志強質詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.878,"end":28.301,"text":"謝謝院長,麻煩陳建仁院長。再請陳院長備詢。我想食安應該是一個科學問題。但食安如果用太多的政治口水,它會變心理恐慌問題。所以我們政府面對食安有點像衛生紙,衛生紙夠不夠它是經濟問題。"},{"start":29.997,"end":48.699,"text":"大家都在搶衛生紙心理的恐慌他反而也會造成造就問題所以我盡量不用政治方面來討論下列的事情我先請教一個基本的事情當我們發現有食安的威脅的時候我們發布就是公佈於眾的標準"},{"start":50.06,"end":51.881,"text":"王元定我容許我答"},{"start":78.444,"end":103.702,"text":"我們讓薛部長坐著好不好?因為薛部長實力真的還不錯。沒關係啦。兩位都坐著我都可以接受。坐著好了,因為薛部長時間還在照跑欸。院長我尊重你的才智啊,但你時間還給我照跑這樣不好啦。坐著打沒關係,因為你真的很不舒服的感覺好不好。院長你也請坐一下沒關係。沒關係我可以。反正內容一樣,好請繼續。我沒有要叫補充起來我就聽到你聲音怪怪。"},{"start":106.844,"end":107.565,"text":"現在的標準是什麼?"},{"start":125.758,"end":144.965,"text":"還是在地方政府做第一線。地方政府那個是行政程序,我講的是標準。實驗室做出什麼結果,在什麼狀態下要公佈於眾?目前的話並沒有一個特定的標準,所以還是要看這個布置的風險。第一個問題,就是我們現在面對又要快又要準。"},{"start":152.68,"end":153.241,"text":"我下一個問題是"},{"start":175.573,"end":195.654,"text":"縱使我們在實驗室我在寫論文控制組對照組我會不會這一個品項這一個單品我驗出來數值可以得到諾貝爾獎哇這數據嚇死人啊我就公佈當然不行要確認嘛是不可以這是科學問題這不是政治問題我現在檢驗一個東西"},{"start":198.271,"end":217.381,"text":"他的數據很驚人我不會急著公佈在論文上何況會引起大眾恐慌的數據我下一步應該怎麼做我應該在同類型的或同批次的東西再找一些來抽如果都是這樣子我可能發現新物種我可能發現新東西嘛"},{"start":218.339,"end":241.086,"text":"那如果我只有這個單一品項數據異常可是同一批次同一物種我現在講的是實驗室都跟他不一樣那我就開始要研究了到底是這個單項有病變還是我的實驗室流程有謬誤那有的還會用轉軸讓結果符合理論那個是不可取啦所以這個才是科學精神嘛對"},{"start":242.858,"end":243.278,"text":"你知道意思嗎?"},{"start":262.751,"end":284.289,"text":"我拿一塊肉原來已經有被汙染了,再拿到實驗室復驗,它還是那一塊肉,沒有來到同批次的對照嘛。那我要問的是,我看報宅我現在要從這邊證實,這一塊肉抽了22次,抽的方法有沒有一樣?"},{"start":285.387,"end":285.407,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":308.773,"end":321.717,"text":"這就是一次做出來的差異太大了,差十幾倍嘛。對,我們在實驗室齁,如果同一個物件,一個object,如果落差超過35%,這個數據我可不可以寫在論文裡面。"},{"start":327.112,"end":351.679,"text":"這個我想這是不正確的啦。這是有問題的嘛。對,不正確的數字。我們現在講到這裡我並沒有特別去講是地方的問題、中央的問題。它是一個科學驗證的問題。如果食藥署同一塊肉,你都驗了22次,數據的落差超過35%,前後數據高達十幾倍的不一樣。作為一個科學實驗人員,你馬上腦袋想的是這個數據有問題,我不能馬上公佈出去。"},{"start":354.48,"end":374.348,"text":"因為馬上公佈出去他會從科學問題變心理恐慌問題我完全同意這件事情是這個樣子嘛那一塊肉那一包肉就只有那一包對他確實驗出是基布特羅為什麼有我們待會再研究他驗出之後同一塊同一個同一包肉"},{"start":375.762,"end":397.163,"text":"打碎了兩次驗了22次落差10多倍單一數據的落差超過35%這不是民進黨說的算也不是國民黨說的算不是藍綠牌的問題可以去問全台灣所有實驗室不管是台大、成大任何實驗室這樣的數據能不能拿來當作論文的數據何況是拿來公佈於眾"},{"start":399.369,"end":425.734,"text":"所以我第二個問題是怎麼樣的數據可以公佈除了那個數值的PPB以外這個數據的流程對照組控制組橫向的檢驗到怎麼樣的狀況我要最快速度最正確的時候有了這個有威脅公佈於眾大家不要吃不要用這才對嘛那就這個階段的質詢到目前為止"},{"start":426.922,"end":430.979,"text":"這一次數據的第一時間公布有沒有符合科學精神?"},{"start":432.838,"end":461.197,"text":"因為他的差距很大然後都沒有再double check所以我們剛才才講說怎麼樣找到正確的數字再公布那因為他本身就有很大的range那他到底去挑哪一個數字那就高興隨著高興挑也不正確所以在當時應該是在做另外一個應該要同一批肉同一頭豬同一雞產出來肉其他部位抽一抽看有沒有才來決定"},{"start":462.597,"end":490.462,"text":"對到底是系統性問題要公佈於眾如果如同盧秀燕市長所說的是個案問題你公佈於眾會產生什麼問題我待會先農業部長有來嗎那個陳俊基代部長先上來我把問題繼續往下推就是說那一包肉按照科學的原則他的數據這樣的公佈到底是科學決定還是政治決定"},{"start":492.244,"end":514.13,"text":"我個人打個問號我也不讓院長回答我認為那個決定在科學的公佈上其實是有一定的問題我有關院長跟這個部長最後一個問題要問的是目前經過其實那是毒澱粉之後我們台南統一企業弄了一個食安辦公室他有經過國際認證嗎"},{"start":516.141,"end":542.123,"text":"然後另外SGS是民間的他的食品實驗室也經過國際認證嘛另外我們的這個我們中央單位有一個續產社那個也經過國際認證嘛這三個國際認證然後加上我們地方政府不管國民黨執政民進黨執政的地方政府的實驗室抽驗從所有的肉品"},{"start":543.411,"end":568.003,"text":"從豬的血液到毛髮到同批次的產品抽驗到現在萊克多巴胺跟西部特羅有沒有驗出?沒有。零。所以我們幾乎可以斷定就只有臺中市食安處的那一包肉有驗出來了而且經過中央食藥署復驗他確實有嘛就只有那一包肉所以盧秀燕市長其實定義的不錯他說這是個案我個人"},{"start":568.796,"end":583.701,"text":"對於過年前他講這次個案我表示佩服因為他講個案至少把衝擊降低一點對很多人減少影響那那個薛部長你先回去休息啦好了那個公佈的過程我們希望亡羊補牢就是建構"},{"start":585.311,"end":608.071,"text":"發布的標準,特別是經常使用的米麵、澱粉等等,它要多少PPB,然後實驗流程要經過什麼樣的程序,然後確認為系統性問題才應該公佈於眾,否則食安會從科學問題因為隨意的違反科學準則去公佈,它從科學問題變成心理恐慌問題。"},{"start":609.735,"end":610.035,"text":"我要請教農業部"},{"start":637.034,"end":653.2,"text":"農部有沒有統計我們農曆春節前本土豬肉的交易量交易產值是多少?我想我們在農曆的過去我講過我先不講今年的以往過往的時候大概是在85塊的上下那從80到85之間一斤85塊對一公斤百公斤一公斤85塊一公斤85塊這一次因為這個事件有沒有波動?"},{"start":662.13,"end":682.455,"text":"我們在監測的他整個過程裡面吼春節就是2月2號到春節那個收市之前是平均是90.8元90.8元但是春節後以後他有不同的不同的因素讓他的價格現在是86平均是86作為農業部的部長你認為這一次西布特羅的事件從一開始發布"},{"start":683.575,"end":684.976,"text":"部長,如果到現在還沒有精算的話,農業部這樣不行喔?"},{"start":708.592,"end":731.149,"text":"你懂我意思嗎?我知道我今天面對這個事情消費者我要保護是供應者就豬農攤販豬肉販傳統市場我都要保護是而有關豬肉這一塊我若是農家部我一定馬上統計今年的因為價格我不會認為是唯一的指標我把數量縮減價格就服了嘛我的意思說以往春節也許比方說一萬斤"},{"start":732.33,"end":745.62,"text":"今年有沒有變成9000斤5000斤然後呢因為這樣的價格或土宅量會不會減少這是農業部的責任你應該統計出來告訴我們說這個消息出來我們今年的本土豬"},{"start":747.312,"end":747.992,"text":"對,我們已經持續在跟那個豬場的這些做一個統計。"},{"start":775.704,"end":803.558,"text":"包括他的那個每一天的批發量大概是2.4萬到2.2萬之間那我們跟去年同期在比較去找出一個去年比較有沒有波動他的波動以價格來講反而比去年高一點但是不能這樣算因為還有成本的問題對還有成本的問題對還有成本的問題還有供應量的問題所以我剛才說我們現在還在做這樣的一個收集這一年來飼料漲價了不能用價格判斷影響對不能用這樣比"},{"start":805.639,"end":828.096,"text":"對你們量有沒有波動有沒有算出來對我們現在的量齁從去年大概2.4萬噸齁大概春節期間那我們今年的話大概是2.2萬噸齁要減才會兩千對但是他的每一頭豬的重量齁比去年還高所以整體的重量來講齁我們現在還在處理你這樣子的數據齁因為你在講要回個格齁簡單來講"},{"start":830.353,"end":846.537,"text":"一、因為他說單一重量加高所以投訴減少。 是。 重量也減少。那這到底是不是因為這個影響你們去統計。 對。 就是說價格的高低會跟供應量跟飼料成本有關係。 對。 但目前我從你剛才的數據聽起來投訴的規價低齁台規價低。 對。 數量有減少。 對。"},{"start":849.298,"end":871.149,"text":"然後總供應的重量數從2.4萬噸降到2.2萬噸數量也有減少,那這個到底是什麼因素導致我不王家定論,榮業部應該要給答案。我最後再請教部長,那如果院長如果知道的話就回答了,不知道的話薛部長你就比較辛苦了。台中那一包肉如果現在是唯一的一包肉有西部特羅,"},{"start":872.779,"end":889.352,"text":"對他到底是從哪裡取回實驗室的一般都去市場取樣嗎他是在台中的一個國軍的這個福利社的這個國軍的那個副使的供應中心那一個供應商其他的肉你們有沒有去驗過他現在"},{"start":892.654,"end":915.661,"text":"我們所了解齁他他取樣的時候針對台糖那一批履歷的那一批齁大概是兩包一包是梅花肉一包是餃子驗完還是只有那一包其他沒有其他沒有縱使在國軍供應站副時供應站就那一包肉有那拿回來之後是誰做檢驗的你們有掌握人嗎就裡面的"},{"start":916.533,"end":917.674,"text":"因為只有在一個實驗室裡面的一塊肉檢驗得到,所以我們一定要從"},{"start":950.784,"end":952.906,"text":"好謝謝王委員定宇的質詢謝謝陳建仁院長謝謝接下來我們請登記第15號羅委員志強質詢"}]}}}}