{"id":149150,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149150","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ee9543ba39e968100b5026af26c03fb74c3dd4484df4233ff8ba9b0039caa7a6e1b2bb67ee2f385d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"14:46:39 - 15:17:48","影片長度":"00:31:09","會議時間":"2024-02-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-27","duration":1869,"end_time":"2024-02-27T15:17:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-27T14:46:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":77,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（14時46分）謝謝韓院長，我們是不是請陳建仁院長？"],["主席：現在請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：謝委員午安。恭喜你當選連任。"],["謝委員衣鳯：午安。謝謝。即使是連任，我們還是要從選前談起，其實我在選前的院會就有質詢，關於2025年臺紐經濟合作協定會導致紐西蘭的牛乳零關稅進口，這是2023年7月的時候所有臺灣酪農的連署書，他們希望政府可以協助他們，幫他們找到產業未來發展的方向。我想請問，去年也是同樣我們3位，我想要請問，當初我們的目標是希望臺灣的牛乳自給率還是可以達到七成，到目前為止，你們的目標有沒有改變？選前、選後有沒有不一樣？"],["陳院長建仁：好。我想這件事情我們部長有積極的在跟酪農做相關的討論，我請他回答。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，針對臺灣的牛乳因應臺紐合作協定，紐西蘭牛乳零關稅進口的部分，我們從去年的9月到現在大概已經開了6次會議，跟酪農本身進行協調，我們也擬定了整個酪農的精進計畫報院了，主要的內容大概分為幾個部分：第一個部分就是委員所關心的，就是我們未來臺灣的牛奶本身的自給率的部分。目前國內的牛乳產量大概是46萬噸，但是在短期之內，因為我們現在要把一些比較寡產的乳牛淘汰，讓我們養牛擠乳的效率提高，所以我們的自給率，當然目標還是會在九成，但是這個九成我們會先把牛奶的量從46萬噸逐漸的降到43……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們現在的餘奶量是不是很多？因為我們從夏季的牛乳開始就發生了供過於求的問題，是不是？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那這個問題目前怎麼解決？"],["陳代理部長駿季：所以我們就是……"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以你們當初在選前有承諾酪農協會，承諾那些酪農朋友，你們要補助每一頭淘汰的乳牛2.5萬，是不是？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。我們就是針對寡產的牛，就是產乳的量比較低的這些牛，我們會有一個淘汰的機制……"],["謝委員衣鳯：淘汰的機制嘛。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，有一個淘汰的機制。淘汰的部分我們會做一些補助，那同樣的就是……"],["謝委員衣鳯：那補助是多少？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們原來的規劃大概是2.5萬左右，但是我們整個的經費現在在報院審核當中，最後的經費，我相信我們一定會為酪農爭取最大的……"],["謝委員衣鳯：會不會跳票？"],["陳院長建仁：他已經在申請了嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們已經申請了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：會不會跳票？院長，會不會跳票？"],["陳院長建仁：當然我們說話算話。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不會跳票嘛？我是不是再請衛福部長？因為其實我們在上一次的時候也提到了，就是如果未來紐西蘭的牛乳進入了臺灣的冷鏈系統，你們兩個的說法是不一的，我不知道你們現在檢驗的標準已經合而為一了沒有，不要在臺灣裡面搞一國兩制嘛！是不是？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想基本上我們第一個最重要的目標就是要讓我們的消費者認同我們臺灣的牛奶，所以我們針對臺灣乳標章的部分已經重新設計了，而且也經過酪農跟消費者本身的評選。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那是就臺灣鮮乳的部分。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，臺灣的部分。"],["謝委員衣鳯：但是如果進入冷鏈系統呢？未來紐西蘭的牛乳如果進入臺灣的冷鏈系統裡面呢？當初我們衛福部的薛部長，那時候也是薛部長嘛！薛部長說以目前你們的檢驗方法是沒有辦法區分紐西蘭的牛乳跟臺灣的鮮乳欸！現在你是說可以嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，這個部分我們本身的畜產試驗所已經開發出臺灣乳跟國外進口乳的區別技術，這個技術已經有了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那如果它們是mix，就是說在冷鏈系統裡面已經mix了，那你們有辦法檢驗出來嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們可以查得出來，所以我們現在透過標章的方式，就是……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你們的畜產所可以，但是未來到了市場以後，甚至到了各縣市以後，都是由衛福部以及各縣市的衛生所去做稽核的工作，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，不過這個要標示啦！因為從進來開始就要做一系列的……"],["陳院長建仁：對，有標章啊！"],["謝委員衣鳯：我知道，可是未來到時候也會有稽核的動作。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那稽核的動作是採衛福部的標準還是採農業部的標準？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想整個標章制度是由衛福部這邊規範的。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["陳代理部長駿季：那進口跟國產的區分，只要它是混的然後沒有標示的時候，那就是違法。第二個部分我要跟委員說明的就是……"],["謝委員衣鳯：違法是一件事情，我當然知道只要混的就是違法。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：但是如果混的你沒有辦法查的時候，那你怎麼知道它違法嘛！是不是？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，在後面的市場查需要比較耗費大的人力跟物力，所以現在的設計是我們在源頭的時候、在乳場的時候，用我們臺灣乳這樣的標章去做一些區隔，然後有這個標章的話，就一定是用臺灣乳去製成的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：現在我們也有標章啊！"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你現在講的就是說，我們如果有這個牛乳的履歷，然後有牛乳的標章，然後看是臺灣牛還是紐西蘭牛。你現在擔心的就是說有一些人、少數的人會去混用，但是混用被抓到當然就處罰啊！當場檢驗、當場處罰啊！"],["謝委員衣鳯：問題是怎麼抓啊！是不是？"],["陳院長建仁：剛才已經講過……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們有檢驗技術。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我現在在講檢驗的方式，問題是到時候是採怎麼樣的檢驗方式嘛！既然農業部現在認為他們已經有辦法查核，因應未來外國的牛乳混充成臺灣鮮奶，那這樣子的查核機制總要給大家知道嘛！你們也要跨部會合作啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們都有跨部會的合作，包括我們檢驗的技術。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不是，像去年的時候衛福部還沒有辦法查核嘛！你今年才告訴他們嘛！我想要知道的是他們有沒有辦法用你們的技術檢查。"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，我們的技術一定要由衛福部這邊，經過一個程序認可以後就變成一個公告的法定方法，透過這個公告的方法就可以去查驗，而且不是畜產試驗所，我們會把這個技術……"],["謝委員衣鳯：什麼時候？現在已經……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們現在已經在申請，就是跟衛福部查核……"],["謝委員衣鳯：現在正在申請？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：什麼時候會完成？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我覺得如果審查得快的話，依過往的經驗大概兩三個月就會確認了，在確認了以後，我們會把這個技術給相關、類似SGS等其他能夠做檢驗的單位，這樣的話，那個檢驗的量能才能夠提高。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我知道啊！我就是在問你，你們這個部分要統合清楚嘛！是不是？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["陳院長建仁：當然。"],["謝委員衣鳯：到時候檢查的時候才不會標準不一嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：不會一個部一個走法啦！不會啦！這個政府是一體的啦！"],["謝委員衣鳯：他們在去年的說法是不一的嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：去年是因為還沒有這個方法嘛！現在已經統一了，所以委員不用擔心，我們一定不會各部走各的路，一定是整合在一起。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還有，我們還要提到畜牧業的廢棄物，不只是一般的廢棄物，甚至是牠們的糞尿這些廢棄物。其實目前民眾對於這些廢棄物的處理方式還是大有疑慮，你們農業部跟環境部有沒有辦法採取更先進的作法來減少那個味道的產生？減少這些廢棄物的處理場變成嫌惡設施，有沒有辦法處理到這種情況？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，整個畜產部分的這些廢棄物，我們現在把它稱為農業剩餘資材，因為它還可以再利用的部分……"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，再利用。"],["陳代理部長駿季：然後這個再利用的部分，我舉個例子，就是養豬場本身那些過去一直被詬病的禽畜尿的污水，我們現在用高床的處理，高床的處理就減少了用水，相對的，整個污水量就會變少，然後把這些禽畜糞尿本身去發電……"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，我知道。那你們到底處理了多少？我們彰化縣你們處理了多少？你們補助了多少去設？你們做了多少這樣高床的設施，減少他們這些資材的那種……"],["陳代理部長駿季：彰化的部分我可能要查，但是以整體來講，就是整個畜牧場裡面應該有兩千多場在申請、在改建了，totally大概有五千多場，所以以全國來講，將近有三成的養豬場已經在做這樣改善的部分。"],["謝委員衣鳯：彰化有多少？"],["陳代理部長駿季：彰化的部分我想我們會後再提供給您。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我現在就在問你啦！你後面的幕僚單位可以趕快把數字給你啊！"],["陳院長建仁：質詢完我們再……"],["陳代理部長駿季：會後我再提供給您。"],["謝委員衣鳯：數字給你啊！"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！質詢完我們再給委員報告。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對啊！那環境部呢？環境部你們在協助這部分，你們還是用槽運車，有沒有更先進的方式呢？因為槽運車在運送的過程當中，還是會產生不必要的味道或者是髒亂，要怎麼樣減少這部分？"],["薛部長富盛：跟謝委員報告，這一塊我們是希望能夠在地把它做一個循環的應用，而不需要再用槽運車運到其他地方去處理，所以這一塊我們會跟農業部積極來合作。"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果未來你們預估的方式是採用在地利用，我甚至不知道你們在地利用這個方式到520之後會不會改變。"],["薛部長富盛：這個政策應該是不會改變，因為資源的循環事實上是未來的一個趨勢。"],["謝委員衣鳯：院長，您確定嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我想農業沒有廢棄物啦！農業資源，這些剩餘資產的再利用，我們一定是一貫的，而且不管是在現在或者520以後，當然是因為仍然還是同一個政黨在執政，怎麼可能會改變？"],["謝委員衣鳯：請看下一張，我給你看下一張，你看這個是2024年1月22號，我們嘉義縣的翁縣長說，在嘉義，台糖有非常多的地可以歡迎台積電來利用。那我想請問，我們在選前的時候也積極在爭取，我們彰化縣也有非常多台糖的土地，甚至我們二林也希望設置二林精密機械園區，台糖農地發展成工業區的條件是不是跨縣市有不同？選前、選後有不同？到時候換政府，就是換政府執政的時候，會不會有不同？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你講話不必要這樣講，我想讓我們部長來說明。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我先跟委員說明，二林精密機械園區本身，事實上在97年就開始有一些相關環評的審查，現在最大的問題就是，在這個園區裡面有2種鳥類，就是黑翅鳶還有燕鴴這2個保育類的鳥類，必須要做適當的解決方案，讓這個棲地得以維持。到目前為止，到了大概去年12月的時候，彰化縣政府提供的這些解決方案，跟它之前所提出來的說法相較並沒有改變。換句話說，這2個保育類還沒有找到解決方案之前，二階的環評大會是沒辦法召開的，所以目前的卡關是在整個保育類的部分。我們農業部跟彰化縣政府也提過了，我們會跟我們的生物多樣性研究所一起來努力，把那個解決方案找出來。"],["謝委員衣鳯：過去我們在發展……其實這已經很久了，在王惠美縣長之前，甚至在魏明谷縣長的時候，都已經提出二林精密機械園區，那時候都沒有提出有保育鳥類的問題，可是為什麼突然之間就產生這個問題？"],["陳院長建仁：就是環評……"],["謝委員衣鳯：甚至我們發現說……沒有，那環評大會在之前好像都沒有提出相關的問題。但是我想要請教的就是，為什麼在嘉義台積電可以使用台糖的農地，而我們二林的精密機械園區沒有辦法使用台糖的農地？是不是跨縣市有不同？"],["陳院長建仁：當然不是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還是政黨有不同？還是產業不同？"],["陳代理部長駿季：以農業部來講，我們是針對土地本身的可利用性跟土壤的質地，我們不會去管地上物是台糖的土地或是私人的土地，或是國有地，這第一個要說明。第二個要說明的就是，我們針對用地一定會跟經濟發展做一些相關的配合，但是在配合的過程中，裡面如果有有機栽培區，我們就會去提醒，如果要作為一個園區，就一定要想辦法把有機栽培園區做妥適的處理；如果裡面有保育、有棲地必要性的時候，我們也會提醒；如果提醒過了以後，他有做一個適度的解決方案的時候，那通常就不會有問題。以二林精密園區來講，我們在100年的時候就已經同意它做農地變更了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，我就說本來在之前它就已經同意要變成精密工業園區。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：王美花部長已經在後面等了，給他講一下好了，是不是就產業別有差別？到底我們臺灣的精密機械產業有沒有前景？還是以目前來看，我們的電力上漲，可能未來也有碳費的問題等等，再加上我們跟周邊國家的關稅貿易協定，以及雙方的關稅貿易協定都沒有簽訂，再加上地緣政治的問題，讓臺灣的傳產都發生了非常重大的結構性問題，是不是我們經濟部就乾脆讓這些隱形冠軍、讓這些傳產自然淘汰，沒有辦法有生存的空間？"],["王部長美花：不會、不會，絕對不會，我們其實非常重視委員提到的這些產業，我們也希望它能夠升級轉型。委員提的二林精密園區，因為它有兩個步驟，一個是都市計畫的變更，另外一個是環評的問題。這兩個部分，其中都市計畫的部分，目前內政部在幫忙審查當中，因為去年12月的時候彰化縣政府有補一個資料進來，內政部現在在審視。而環評的部分，環評這邊也希望我們跟農業部再磋商，所以整個步驟目前是還在進行當中。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以你們跟農業部進行的磋商……"],["王部長美花：另外，常常在環評也被問到的一個問題，那就是目前二林科學園區的進駐率有沒有提升？提升了以後就表示用地需求一直在增加，這樣也會對我們開發二林精密園區的需要性比較有幫助。這幾個問題經濟部也會來跟相關的部會合作。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還是你們就是默默地把它移到嘉義……"],["陳院長建仁：嘉義有嘉義的……"],["謝委員衣鳯：因為嘉義的台糖農地都比較不會產生保育類動物的問題。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你這樣說的話不是事實啦！"],["謝委員衣鳯：然後你看我們翁縣長講啦，比較不會有抗爭啊，是不是？"],["陳代理部長駿季：跟委員說明，全臺灣的保育類，包括它重要的棲地，我們有一個生態綠網的圖資，是可以套圖的，這個生態綠網的圖資是我們過去大概將近10年來不斷地去重建它的生態區跟保育區，特別是要因應未來整個環境永續面。所以，在不同的地區，不會因為這個棲地遇到不同的地區就會移動。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你如果再跟我講這個，那我再跟你提，同樣的，我發現很多光電業者，他們要在我們的溼地，就是芳苑鄉、大城鄉等等的溼地上建立光電，就是要設置太陽光板。我問你，目前如果像這樣子的精密機械園區做的是比較大規模的經濟……。我也想要請問，在那樣子的情況下，為什麼有時候光電業者可以跟國產署對於相關農地申請變更成特殊事業用地做光電的生產？為什麼有時候在這樣子比較重大有經濟前景的情況下，這種大規模的、有聚落效應的產業沒有辦法使用這些農地，而這些零碎性的可以使用農地？這會對環境造成什麼樣的影響？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，目前以農地提供作為光電使用的部分大概分為三大類，第一大類就是漁電共生區，這個漁電共生區大概2萬0,905公頃，第二個部分是不利耕作區，是2,162公頃，第三個部分大概是用農地變更的方式，這些地在圈出來之前都一定經過生態檢核和環社檢核，檢核完畢確定這裡面的區位沒有跟必須保護的棲地有關，我們才會把它框出來，所以它有一定的……"],["謝委員衣鳯：院長，我跟你說好不好？現在多少面積的光電需要申請環評？"],["王部長美花：光電目前不是環評，是用環社檢核，因為它對環境的影響相對跟設工廠本來就不太一樣。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那是多少面積需要申請環社檢核？"],["王部長美花：它其實是區域的問題，我們就跟農業部合作來做相關的……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們都在政府部門工作，必須瞭解實際的狀況，我聽到的現況是他們就化整為零啊！同樣一個區塊，他們可以申請設立多一點公司，然後分塊來申請，減少需要面臨環評或環社檢核的條件啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，環社檢核不會因為面積變小就不做，我剛才說了，就在我們所框定的漁電共生區兩萬多公頃，我們已經初步做了環社檢核、比較低敏感的，但是你在申請的時候同樣會再確認一次，不管你是1公頃或是10公頃，都還是要經過環社的檢核過，這是在整個申請過程中一個必要的條件。以農業部來講，我們一定會去保護我們的農地，所以到目前為止，2萬905公頃裡面的漁電共生區只用了大概兩千兩百多公頃，不到十分之一，不利耕作區也用不到三分之一，就是因為我們持續在跟經濟部一起努力，有做一個非常嚴謹的審查，不會對生態造成一些影響。"],["謝委員衣鳯：但是之前你們其實就已經希望國產署或各部會的土地都設定成大家共同來推光電，是不是？"],["王部長美花：沒有，我們一定是先盤出這合不合適設光電，然後才會去推，如果那個區域不合適，第一關就會被農業部打槍了，所以不太可能。"],["陳院長建仁：我想部會是整合的啦！委員，你會有你的懷疑，我尊重，但是我要跟委員報告，在整個光電的發展上，實際上我們部會之間都有很密切的協調，我們是希望能夠在環境保育做得很好，而且能夠發展光電的情況下一起來推動，所以你會覺得：唉喲，怎麼會審查這麼多、這麼多？問題就是希望臺灣能夠有產業的發展，又有環境的保護，統統能夠兼顧嘛！所以你這樣講片面的，實際上不是我們的情況，我們部會是合作的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不是，我也是把目前民眾的想法跟您分享嘛！因為……"],["陳院長建仁：民眾的想法有些可能不正確啦！"],["謝委員衣鳯：因為我們必須在這裡對於國家未來的政策進行溝通，總是要達到全民共識的方向嘛！對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對，我謝謝你、謝謝你，謝謝，但是民眾的想法不見得對啦！"],["謝委員衣鳯：我也看了台電的發電成本，再生能源我們的自發電力2022年是1.72元，2023年是2.53元，其實都比購入電力低很多，所以民眾就會希望，尤其是非常多中小企業廠商他們沒有辦法花那麼多錢，再加上3月份電價審議委員會有可能會對未來的電價做適當的調整，這可能都會漲到民生電價以及所有產業的用電，這個部分我們有沒有辦法調整再生能源的電價呢？"],["王部長美花：再生能源部分，事實上現在對新的離岸風電，其實都已經是讓民間來買電了，不用躉購費率，所以台電對離岸風電沒有再用躉購費率來收購。太陽光電的部分，事實上從今年開始，越來越多的企業會把……甚至現在的躉購費率會變成是他們自己去買電，所以太陽光電來躉購費率給台電部分的占比也會逐漸的降低。因為發展再生能源對整個國家是很必須的，所以我們還是要支持再生能源的發展。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，可是我們即便是很必須……我也認為啦！因為未來整個就是世界的趨勢……"],["王部長美花：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：但是我們目前看到的，其實我有找了一張，就是你們去年跟前年的電力供需概況，我發現其實我們今年度的工業用電減少非常大，然後我們工業部門的用電需求占比是56.1%，它就降低了2.8%，其實這是因為全球景氣的關係，以及我們是仰賴出口的關係。我們目前沒有缺電的問題，有可能是因為景氣不好，工廠的生產沒有這麼大需求的情況，導致我們電力需求沒有這麼高，那是不是在這個時間點，我們對於光電的發展要進行一些調整？我們再回來看我們的電力結構裡面，其實我們發現再生能源即便是……我不要講是錯誤的能源，講錯誤的能源等一下陳院長就跳腳了，但是我們總要檢討……"],["陳院長建仁：再生能源怎麼會是錯誤能源？"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們總要檢討……"],["陳院長建仁：這個是違反世界潮流。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們總要檢討一下嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：可以檢討。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是不是？我們總要檢討一下……"],["陳院長建仁：檢討就是……"],["謝委員衣鳯：因為即便是目前，我們希望我們的再生能源占比增加，但是以目前你們的速度，要達到你們2025年想要的20%的那個目標，是遠遠不可能，除非技術進步，那現在我們有什麼樣子技術進步的能量嗎？能夠讓我們2025可以……而且我再說一下，尤其是太陽能光電，我有看過台電太陽能光電的發展跟一般民間太陽能光電的發展，為什麼民眾對於光電業的發展認為需要做部分的檢討？那就是在法令限制的模糊空間裡面，第一個，我們有沒有辦法提高太陽能光電的效率？即便我們要再生能源，我們也希望技術進步可以促進光電發電的效率……"],["陳院長建仁：是，同意。"],["謝委員衣鳯：在既有的設施上面，我們有沒有辦法提高光電的發電效率，以及怎麼樣子在鄰近民宅、鄰近其他的設施裡面，就是有退縮的機制？所以在法令上面，有沒有可能在520之前你們做一個檢討，然後在法規上面做改變？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我聽不太懂這個退縮的機制是什麼，是正常的機制嗎？"],["王部長美花：這個部分……"],["謝委員衣鳯：不是，它在一塊地裡面，例如它比較接近民宅，或者是接近……因為有時候接近民宅是可以設置光電的，那這個部分你要不要做退縮的機制？"],["王部長美花：有、有，這個……"],["謝委員衣鳯：然後這個要修改法令，對不對？"],["王部長美花：其實是我們的規範，不需要到法律的部分。"],["謝委員衣鳯：然後這個部分是不是必須要做一個……然後發電的太陽能板也有非常多種耶！未來比較高發電效率的太陽能板是什麼？未來是不是大家應該要採取高效率發電量的太陽能板？這都需要做進一步的檢討，不然以目前臺灣剩餘的土地，有沒有辦法全面性的發展？然後在全面性的發展以外，對於民眾而言，他們會不會覺得受到困擾，因為太陽能板在旁邊很熱嘛！很亮嘛！這都是一種嫌惡的設施嘛！這也會影響到民眾居住的品質。你不要笑啊！"],["陳院長建仁：太陽能板是邪惡的設施？這樣的講法……"],["謝委員衣鳯：嫌惡啦！嫌惡。"],["陳院長建仁：嫌惡？被人家嫌、被人家討厭嘛，你的意思是這樣嘛？"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，就是啊！"],["陳院長建仁：太陽能板是被人家嫌惡的設施，這樣的講法，我想跟一般的理解是不太一樣，可是我完全尊重委員的講法，確實太陽能發電的技術一直在進步，我同意你的想法，就是如果有更好的技術，我們當然要採用啊！這個我完全同意，然後我們不要讓民眾覺得嫌惡，當然距離要退縮……"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，不要讓民眾覺得嫌惡，要怎麼樣做？"],["陳院長建仁：這個我也同意。"],["謝委員衣鳯：要怎麼做？"],["王部長美花：所以有兩個部分，一個就是如果這個太陽能面板離居住的地方很近了，目前我們有規範，它四周一定要退縮，然後用綠帶來隔離，不要造成附近很接近居民視野上的問題。第二個，太陽能面板要用更高效率這個部分，第一，我們會在技術上希望業者不斷的研發；第二，如果有這個技術出來，其實廠商也想擴廠去改變用更高效率的部分，這也是要看在國內發展的情形。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，我們知道以目前來看，如果沒有先進的技術之下，我們再生能源的發電量不可能達到20%，如果今年產業的景氣，就你們預估還是有可能是往上、需求增加，那麼用電量增加的情況下，你們緊急用電會不會用到核電？"],["王部長美花：這部分我們都有準備，所以第一個，我們當然要發展再生能源；第二個，我們在前一年就會針對相關的狀況，比如今年，我們前一年就在盤點今年可能的用電情形，我們預估……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你們自己要不要修核子反應器設施管制法？就是核電廠研議的條例？"],["陳院長建仁：委員您關心的是延役的部分嘛！"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，我在說緊急用電的部分。"],["陳院長建仁：你們現在提出來的……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我是問你們行政部門，不是我們提出來的。"],["陳院長建仁：為什麼5年前就要申請，因為當它要停止繼續發電的時候，需要有5年的檢驗期，所以即使修了法，也沒有辦法讓核二、核三在它停止發電的那一天到的時候，就馬上可以延，因為還要有安全的檢查，所以要修法的時候，真的要想清楚為什麼當時要有5年。提前5年的目的，就是為了保證可以讓核安會來檢查它是不是符合核能的安全，可以繼續發電，可是現在都已經超過5年嘛！對不對？所以修法的時候，我們也要考慮它的可行性。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝謝委員衣鳯的質詢，謝謝陳院長的答詢。","接下來，請林委員國成，請質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳秉叡","丁學忠","黃珊珊","林岱樺","陳雪生","張啓楷","徐富癸","謝衣鳯","林國成","蔡其昌","萬美玲","黃秀芳","呂玉玲"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2024-02-27"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00011","1130401_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1130401_00013"}},"transcript":{"id":"149150","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149150","tool":"pyannote","id":"149150-pyannote"},"job_id":"HpAKxZvVg2QYsR7z","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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1104.75, \"text\": \"那為什麼有時候在這樣子比較重大有工業就是有一些經濟前景的情況下這種大規模的有那個聚酪效應的產業沒有辦法使用這些農地而這些零碎性的可以使用農地那這對於環境的影響\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1083.328, \"end\": 1084.069, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 1084.069, \"end\": 1084.729, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1084.729, \"end\": 1085.09, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 1085.09, \"end\": 1085.55, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1085.55, \"end\": 1086.131, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 1086.131, \"end\": 1086.331, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 1086.331, \"end\": 1086.932, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 1086.932, \"end\": 1087.212, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 1087.212, \"end\": 1087.432, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1087.432, \"end\": 1087.733, \"score\": 0.999}, 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\"end\": 1342.679, \"text\": \"問題就是說希望台灣能夠有產業的發展又有環境的保護通通能夠兼顧嘛所以你這樣講片面的實際上不是我們的情況我們部會是合作的我也是把就是說目前民眾他們的想法跟你分享嘛民眾的想法有些可能不正確啦我們必須要在這裡就是要對於國家未來的政策總是要在這裡達到溝通達到全民共識的方向啦對不對\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1315.098, \"end\": 1315.519, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1315.519, \"end\": 1315.719, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 1315.719, \"end\": 1315.899, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 1315.899, \"end\": 1316.119, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 1316.119, \"end\": 1316.539, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 1316.539, \"end\": 1316.84, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1316.84, \"end\": 1317.3, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"產\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1317.3, \"end\": 1317.62, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"展\", \"start\": 1317.62, \"end\": 1317.82, 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\"在聖誕園部分事實上現在對新的這個離岸風電其實都已經是讓民間來買電了不用短購費率那所以臺電對離岸風電沒有再用這個短購費率來收購那太陽光電的部分事實上從今年開始那越來越多的企業會把甚至現在的短購費率會變成是他們自己去買電\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1404.509, \"end\": 1405.149, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"聖\"}, {\"word\": \"誕\"}, {\"word\": \"園\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1405.149, \"end\": 1405.309, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 1405.309, \"end\": 1405.529, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 1405.529, \"end\": 1405.729, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 1405.729, \"end\": 1406.229, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1406.229, \"end\": 1407.35, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 1407.35, \"end\": 1407.63, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1407.63, \"end\": 1408.49, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"離\"}, {\"word\": \"岸\", \"start\": 1408.49, \"end\": 1409.33, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"風\"}, 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\"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"林\", \"start\": 1866.781, \"end\": 1867.102, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1867.102, \"end\": 1868.345, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"臣\", \"start\": 1868.345, \"end\": 1868.365, \"score\": 0.186}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,649 --> 00:00:03,730\n陳建仁院長請陳院長備詢。雖然無案,恭喜你當選連任。謝謝。即使是連任,我們還是要從選前。我們選前的院會其實我有質詢,就是關於2025年的台紐經濟合作協定會導致紐西蘭的紐魯林關稅的進口\n\n2\n00:00:27,777 --> 00:00:46,182\n那這是2030年7月時候所有臺灣諾農他們的連署書喔。他們希望政府可以協助他們,把他們找到產業未來發展的方向。那我想請問,去年我們也是同樣就是我們三位嘛。\n\n3\n00:00:47,082 --> 00:01:05,275\n我想請問當初我們的目標是希望臺灣的牛乳自主力還是可以達到7成那以目前為止你們的目標有沒有改變選前選後我想這件事情我們部長有積極的在跟駱龍有做相關的討論我請他做一個回答\n\n4\n00:01:05,857 --> 00:01:29,107\n我跟那個委員說明就是針對那個臺灣的一個牛乳陰陰那個台牛的一個自由靈觀罪進口的部分我們大概已經從去年的9月到現在大概已經開了大概6次的會議跟洛農本身的一個協調那我們也擬定了整個一個洛農的一個精進的一個計畫抱怨了那主要的內容大概分為幾個部分\n\n5\n00:01:30,387 --> 00:01:48,775\n第一個部分就是委員所關心的就是我們未來台灣的牛奶本身的自給率的部分那現在目前國內的牛乳的部分大概是46萬噸但是在短期之內因為我們現在把一些比較寡產的這個乳牛做一些淘汰\n\n6\n00:01:49,335 --> 00:01:53,780\n因為我們現在的牛奶量是不是很多因為從我們夏季的牛乳開始就發生了供過於求的這樣子的問題\n\n7\n00:02:11,118 --> 00:02:26,623\n是不是?那這個問題目前怎麼解決?所以你們當初在選前有承諾糯農協會承諾那些糯農的朋友你們要補助每一頭牛就是淘汰乳牛2.5萬是不是?\n\n8\n00:02:28,564 --> 00:02:56,139\n對,我們就是寡產的牛,不是就是他產乳的量比較低的這些牛,寡產的牛我們會有一個就是淘汰的一個機制,對有一個淘汰的機制,那淘汰部分我們會做一些補助,那同樣的就是那補助是多少?我們現在原來規劃大概是兩萬五左右,但是我們整個的經費現在在抱怨在審核當中,最後的經費我相信我們一定會為弱農爭取最大的一個量,會不會跳票?\n\n9\n00:02:58,454 --> 00:03:25,482\n他已經在申請了嘛。會不會跳票啊?院長會不會跳票?當然,我們說話算話。不會跳票嘛。那我是不是再請衛福部長,因為其實我們在上一次的時候也提到了,就是說如果未來紐西蘭的這個牛乳進入了台灣的能源系統,你們兩個說法是不一的。我不知道你們現在檢驗的標準已經合而為一了沒有?不要在台灣裡面搞兩次嘛,一國兩制嘛。\n\n10\n00:03:26,122 --> 00:03:44,657\n我想基本上我們第一個最重要的目標就是要讓我們的消費者認同我們台灣的牛奶所以我們針對標章的部分台灣乳的標章的部分我們已經重新設計了而且也經過酪農跟消費者本身的一個評選那是就台灣先入的部分對台灣的部分對\n\n11\n00:03:45,578 --> 00:04:02,755\n但是如果進入冷鏈系統呢,未來紐西蘭的牛乳如果進入臺灣的冷鏈系統裡面,當初我們衛福部薛部長也是薛部長嘛,你說以目前你們的檢驗方法是沒有辦法區分紐西蘭的牛乳跟臺灣的鮮乳。\n\n12\n00:04:03,956 --> 00:04:06,659\n那如果他們是mixed,就是說在冷電系統裡面已經mixed,\n\n13\n00:04:19,676 --> 00:04:41,074\n那你們有辦法檢驗出來嗎?我們可以查得出來所以我們現在透過標準的方式但是未來但是你們的續產所可以但是未來到了市場以後甚至到了各縣市以後都是由衛福部以及各縣市的衛生所去做集合的工作對不對?\n\n14\n00:04:43,096 --> 00:05:07,214\n對。不過這要標示啦。從進來開始。我知道可是未來到時候也會有集合的動作啊。那集合的動作是踩衛福部的標準還是踩農業部的標準?我想整個的標章制度是由衛福部這邊規範的。那進口跟國產的區分只要它是混的然後沒有標示的時候那就是違法。\n\n15\n00:05:08,260 --> 00:05:29,708\n那第二個部分我要跟委員說明的就是違法違法是一件事情我當然知道只要混的就是違法但是如果混的你沒有辦法查的時候那你怎麼知道他違法我跟委員說明齁後市場的查那個是需要比較耗費大的人力跟物力所以我們現在設計是說我們在源頭的時候爐廠的時候我們台灣爐標章的時候\n\n16\n00:05:37,735 --> 00:05:55,031\n委員你現在講的就是說我們如果有這個牛乳的履歷然後有牛乳的標章然後看是台灣牛還是有西南牛你現在擔心的就是說有一些人少數的人他會去混用但是混用抓到當然就處罰\n\n17\n00:05:56,332 --> 00:06:03,094\n問題是怎麼抓?問題是到時候是採怎麼樣的檢驗方式嗎?那農業部應該既然農業部現在認為他們已經有辦法查核這樣子就是把就是未來外國的牛乳混沖成臺灣的鮮奶的時候那這樣子查核的機制總要給大家知道嘛\n\n18\n00:06:25,021 --> 00:06:28,743\n我們的技術一定要經過衛福部這邊經過一個程序認可以後就變成一個公告的法定的方法\n\n19\n00:06:50,416 --> 00:06:51,276\n我知道啊,我就是在問你說\n\n20\n00:07:19,284 --> 00:07:40,394\n你們這個部分要統合清楚嘛,是不是?到時候檢查的才不會標準不一嘛。他們去年說法是不一的嘛。去年是因為還沒有這個方法嘛,那現在已經統一了嘛。所以委員你不用擔心,我們一定不會各步走各的路,一定是整合在一起。\n\n21\n00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:58,574\n還有我們還提到了就是畜牧業的廢棄物那不只是一般的廢棄物甚至是他們的糞尿的這個廢棄物其實目前民眾對於這些廢棄物的處理方式還是大有疑慮\n\n22\n00:07:59,415 --> 00:08:01,256\n我跟委員說明就是整個\n\n23\n00:08:23,731 --> 00:08:46,492\n續產的部分的這些廢棄物我們現在把它把它稱為農業剩餘資材因為它還可以再利用的部分然後這個再利用的部分我舉個例子就是養豬場本身的那些過去一直被詬病的那個情緒那樣的污水我們現在用高床的處理高床的處理的話就減少的用水那相對的它整個污水量就會變少然後把這些\n\n24\n00:08:47,293 --> 00:09:09,554\n對我知道那你們到底處理了多少我們彰化縣你們處理了多少你們補助了多少續設你們做了多少這樣子高床的設施減少就是這樣子就是他們這些資材的我想彰化的部分我可能要查但是以整體來講就是整個畜牧場裡面有大概有4\n\n25\n00:09:10,935 --> 00:09:27,572\n應該就2000多場在申請在改建了那totally大概有5000多場所以已經將近有三成的全國來講將近有三成的這些養豬場已經在做這樣的一個改善的部分張嬅有多少張嬅我想廢後我們廢後再提供給你廢後我再提供給你數字給你阿\n\n26\n00:09:33,699 --> 00:09:54,979\n對啊,執行完我們再給委員拜訪。對啊,那環境部呢?環境部你們到底在協助這部分,你們還是用潮運車,那有沒有更先進的方式呢?因為潮運車去運送這個過程當中還是會產生就是不必要的衛道啊或者是髒亂也好,那怎麼樣子減少這部分?\n\n27\n00:09:56,183 --> 00:10:19,713\n給謝委員報告這一塊我們是希望說能夠在地把它做一個循環的應用而不需要再用潮運車運到其他地方去處理所以這一塊我們會跟農業部那如果你們現在已經未來你們預估的方式是採用在地利用我甚至不知道你們在地利用這個方式到520之後會不會改變\n\n28\n00:10:21,296 --> 00:10:43,388\n這個政策應該是不會改變,因為資源的循環事實上是未來的一個趨勢。我想這個農業沒有廢棄物啦,農業資源這些剩餘資產的這個再利用我們是一定是一貫的,而且不管是在現在或者520以後當然是因為還是仍然同一個\n\n29\n00:10:45,526 --> 00:10:49,858\n政黨在執政嗎?怎麼可能會改變?我給你看下一張,你看這個\n\n30\n00:10:52,280 --> 00:11:18,277\n這個是2024年1月22號我們嘉義縣的翁縣長他說的他說在嘉義台塘有非常多的地可以歡迎台積電來利用那我想請問為什麼我們在選前的時候也積極在爭取我們彰化縣也有非常多台塘的土地那甚至在這個我們20也希望設置20精密機械園區\n\n31\n00:11:19,878 --> 00:11:37,950\n像設置二齡精密機械園區這樣子的難道是臺堂的農地發展成工業區的條件是不是跨縣市有不同選前選後有不同到時候換政府就是換政府執政的時候會不會有不同\n\n32\n00:11:38,564 --> 00:12:01,184\n委員你講話不必要這樣講我想讓我們部長來說明我先跟委員說明就是惡靈機械的精密園區本身事實上在97年就開始有一些相關的一個環評的一個審查那現在最大的一個問題就是在這個園區裡面它有所謂的兩種鳥類就是那個黑\n\n33\n00:12:02,125 --> 00:12:23,754\n黑尾菸還有一個雁橫這兩個保育類的鳥類必須要做適當的一個解決方案讓這個棲地能夠得以維持那目前為止到了大概去年12月的時候彰化縣政府提供的這些解決方案並沒有做任何跟他之前所提出來的說法有改變\n\n34\n00:12:24,474 --> 00:12:45,961\n換句話說在這個兩個保育類還沒有還沒有把它找到解決方案之前那個環評的二階的環評他大會是沒辦法召開的所以現在是目前的卡關是在整個保育類的部分那我們農業部會跟彰化縣政府我們也提過了我們會跟我們的生物多樣性研究所一起來努力把這個那個解決方案把它找出來\n\n35\n00:12:47,666 --> 00:13:14,320\n過去我們在發展其實這已經很久了在王惠美縣長之前甚至在那個衛明谷縣長的時候都已經提出這個惡靈精密機械元素那時候都沒有提出有這個保育鳥類的問題可是為什麼突然之間就產生這個問題甚至我們就是發現說沒有那環評大會在之前好像都沒有提出相關的問題\n\n36\n00:13:15,460 --> 00:13:30,554\n但是我想要請教的就是為什麼在嘉義是台積電可以使用台塘的農地而我們20的精密機械園區沒有辦法使用台塘的農地那是不是跨縣市有不同?\n\n37\n00:13:31,915 --> 00:13:51,484\n當然不是。以農業部來講,我們是針對土地本身的一個可利用性,跟它土壤的質地。我們不會去管說地上物是台湯的土地或是私人的土地或是國有地的部分。這第一個要說明。第二個要說明的就是我們在針對\n\n38\n00:13:53,366 --> 00:14:14,748\n我們一定會跟產業就是我們的經濟發展做一些相關的配合但是在配合的過程中我們會針對裡面如果說有有機的栽培區我們就會去提醒如果你要做一個園區就一定要想辦法把有機栽培園區做妥適的處理那如果裡面它有保育有棲地的必要性的時候那我們也會做提醒\n\n39\n00:14:15,248 --> 00:14:38,418\n那如果說提醒過了以後他有做適度的一個解決方案的時候那通常就不會有問題以惡靈精密園區來講我們在100年的時候就已經同意他做農地變更了對我就說他本來在之前他就已經同意要變成就是精密工業園區但是那個王美花部長已經在後面等了給他講一下好了\n\n40\n00:14:40,054 --> 00:15:05,978\n是不是就產業別有差別到底我們臺灣的精密機械產業有沒有前景還是以目前來看我們的電力上漲可能未來也有碳費的問題等等的再加上我們跟周邊國家的關稅貿易協定以及雙方的關稅貿易協定都沒有簽訂再加上地緣政治的問題讓臺灣的傳產\n\n41\n00:15:09,059 --> 00:15:30,914\n都發生了非常重大的結構性的問題是不是我們經濟部就乾脆讓這些隱形冠軍讓這些傳產讓他們自然淘汰沒有辦法有生活的不會不會絕對不會我們其實非常重視委員提到這些產業那我們也希望他能夠升級轉型那委員提到這個惡靈精密園區因為他兩個步驟一個是都市\n\n42\n00:15:59,642 --> 00:16:04,088\n所以整個步驟目前是還在進行當中。另外一個問題常常在環評也被問到一個問題目前的這個\n\n43\n00:16:12,642 --> 00:16:28,707\n科學園區的進駐率有沒有提升那這個也會就是說提升了以後就表示這個用地的需求一直在增加那這樣也會對我們開發20精密園區的需要性也會比較有幫助那所以這幾個問題的部分\n\n44\n00:16:30,607 --> 00:16:50,580\n那經濟部也會來跟相關的部會合作還是你們就是默默的就把他移到嘉義啊?就是你在我這台上不見嘉義有嘉義的嘉義的台湯的農地都比較不會產生保育類的那個動物啊委員你這樣說的話不是事實啊就是移到不會有抗爭啊\n\n45\n00:16:51,721 --> 00:16:52,361\n你如果再跟我講這個那我再跟你提到了\n\n46\n00:17:20,106 --> 00:17:37,442\n那但是同樣的我發現了很多的光電業者他們要在我們的濕地就是方圓鄉啊大城鄉等等的濕地建立光電的就是要設置太陽光板那\n\n47\n00:17:37,902 --> 00:18:02,668\n我問你現在目前如果像這樣子的精密機械園區做的是比較有大規模的經濟我也想要請問那在那樣子的情況下為什麼有時候光電業者可以跟國產署對於相關的農地來申請變更成就是特殊事業用地嘛做光電的生產\n\n48\n00:18:03,328 --> 00:18:24,750\n那為什麼有時候在這樣子比較重大有工業就是有一些經濟前景的情況下這種大規模的有那個聚酪效應的產業沒有辦法使用這些農地而這些零碎性的可以使用農地那這對於環境的影響\n\n49\n00:18:26,772 --> 00:18:41,147\n我跟委員說明齁,現在目前以農地提供作為光電用使用的部分大概分為三大類。第一大類就是漁電工程區。那這個漁電工程區大概20905公頃。那第二個部分是不利耕作區是2162公頃。\n\n50\n00:18:44,170 --> 00:19:09,523\n那第三個部分是,大概是用農地變更的方式。這些地的圈出來之前,它都一定經過生態檢核跟環社的一個檢核。檢核完了,確定了它不,這裡面的區位是沒有跟所謂的棲地,我們必須要保護的棲地有關,我們才會把它框出來。所以它有一定的,對。縣長,我跟妳說好不好。他們跟我講說,\n\n51\n00:19:11,424 --> 00:19:29,674\n現在多少面積的光電需要申請環評?光電目前不是,是用環射檢測的部分,因為它對環境的影響相對跟設工廠本來就不太一樣。多少面積需要申請環射?\n\n52\n00:19:31,712 --> 00:19:47,509\n其實是區域的問題,那我們就跟農業部合作來做相關的...因為我聽到的現況,我們都在政府部門工作嘛,那我們必須要了解實地的狀況嘛。\n\n53\n00:19:49,031 --> 00:20:03,486\n現況是他們就化整為零啊。他們就把那個就是同樣一個區塊,他們可以申請設立公司多一點,然後分塊來就是申請。那減少需要面臨這種環評或環社的條件啊。\n\n54\n00:20:05,728 --> 00:20:23,563\n反射檢測不會因為你的面積變小了就不做反射檢測就在我剛才說的就在我們所框定的漁電工程區兩萬多公頃我們已經初步做反射的一個檢核比較低敏感的但是你在申請的時候同樣會再確認一次\n\n55\n00:20:24,284 --> 00:20:53,564\n不管你是一公頃或是十公頃都還是要經過環社的檢核過這個是在整個的申請過程中一個必要的一個條件以農業部來講我們一定會去保護我們的農地所以到目前為止20905公頃裡面的餘電公升值用了大概2200多公頃不到十分之一不利工作區也用不到三分之一就是因為我們持續在跟經濟部一起努力有做一個非常嚴謹的審查不會對我們生態造成一些影響\n\n56\n00:20:54,804 --> 00:21:11,349\n但是在過去的時候在之前的時候其實就已經你們都把就是說國產署的土地或者是各部會的土地都已經希望設定成就是大家共同來推光電了是不是?\n\n57\n00:21:12,659 --> 00:21:16,203\n我知道說我具體我們一定是先盤出說這個合不合適射光墊然後才會去推如果那個區域是不合適我們第一關就會被農委會打槍了不太可能\n\n58\n00:21:27,899 --> 00:21:52,456\n我想部會是整合的啦委員你會有你的懷疑那是我是尊重但是我要跟委員報告在整個關店的發展上實際上我們部會之間都有很密切的協調我們是希望能夠在環境保育做得很好而且呢能夠發展關店的情況下一起來推動所以你會覺得哎呀怎麼會審查這麼多這麼多\n\n59\n00:21:55,098 --> 00:22:22,679\n問題就是說希望台灣能夠有產業的發展又有環境的保護通通能夠兼顧嘛所以你這樣講片面的實際上不是我們的情況我們部會是合作的我也是把就是說目前民眾他們的想法跟你分享嘛民眾的想法有些可能不正確啦我們必須要在這裡就是要對於國家未來的政策總是要在這裡達到溝通達到全民共識的方向啦對不對\n\n60\n00:22:23,459 --> 00:22:23,841\n這是台電的上一張。\n\n61\n00:22:33,380 --> 00:22:55,032\n我們看到這是臺電它的發電成本那其實我們自發的電力在再生能源我們自發的電力是1.72塊在2022年的時候2023年的時候是2.53那其實我們都比購入的電力都非常的都是低很多那所以民眾就會希望說是不是\n\n62\n00:22:56,213 --> 00:23:22,048\n尤其是非常多中小企業廠商他們沒有辦法花那麼多錢那再加上有可能3月份的電價審議委員會未來對於電價的發電也會做適當的調整那這可能都會漲到民生電價以及所有的產業的用電那這個部分我們有沒有辦法調整再生能源的這個電價呢\n\n63\n00:23:24,509 --> 00:23:49,974\n在聖誕園部分事實上現在對新的這個離岸風電其實都已經是讓民間來買電了不用短購費率那所以臺電對離岸風電沒有再用這個短購費率來收購那太陽光電的部分事實上從今年開始那越來越多的企業會把甚至現在的短購費率會變成是他們自己去買電\n\n64\n00:23:50,974 --> 00:24:06,204\n所以這個太陽光電來賺購匯率給台電的部分的占比呢也會逐漸的來降低啦那因為發展再生能源對整個國家是很必須的所以我們還是要支持這個再生能源的發展\n\n65\n00:24:07,399 --> 00:24:31,786\n對可是我們即便是很必須我也我也認為啦因為未來整個就是說世界的趨勢但是在目前我們我們目前看到其實我有找了一張就是你們去年跟前年的電力供應供需的概況發現了其實我們今年度的就是工業用電就是減少非常大嗎\n\n66\n00:24:32,586 --> 00:24:59,033\n然後我們的工業用電工業部門的用電它的需求是暫比是56.1%嘛它就降低了2.8%所以在其實這是因為全球景氣的關係以及我們是仰賴出口的關係那導致於我們目前沒有缺電的問題有可能是因為景氣不好那工廠的生產沒有這麼大的需求的情況下所導致我們電力需求沒有這麼高的情況下\n\n67\n00:24:59,713 --> 00:25:21,669\n那是不是在這個時間點我們對於光電的這個發展要進行一些調整啊?我們再回來看喔就是看我們的電力結構裡面喔其實我們發現再生能源即便是我不要講你們是錯誤的能源錯誤能源等一下你陳院長就跳腳啦但是我們總要節省\n\n68\n00:25:24,591 --> 00:25:52,110\n我們總要檢討一下嗎?因為即便是目前我們希望我們的再生能源占比增加但是以目前你們的速度要達到你們2025年想要的20%的那個目標是遠遠不可能除非技術進步那現在目前我們有什麼樣子技術進步的能量嗎?\n\n69\n00:25:53,482 --> 00:26:09,250\n是不是能夠讓我們2025可以而且我再說一下尤其是太陽能光店我有看過臺電的就是太陽能光店的發展跟一般就是民間的太陽能光店的發展\n\n70\n00:26:09,890 --> 00:26:38,735\n其實為什麼民眾對於光電業的發展認為需要做部分的檢討那就是在法令限制的模糊的空間裡面第一個我們有沒有辦法提高太陽能光電的效率嗎即便我們要再生能源我們也希望說技術進步可以促進光電發電的效率嗎在既有的就是設施上面我們有沒有辦法提高光電的發電效率以及\n\n71\n00:26:39,275 --> 00:26:43,739\n所以在法令上面有沒有可能在520之前你們做一個檢討在法規上面做改變\n\n72\n00:26:58,314 --> 00:27:20,563\n委員我聽不太懂這個退縮的機制是什麼?我是說就是不是他在一塊地裡面例如他比較接近民宅或者是接近因為有時候接近民宅他是可以設置光電的那這個部分你要不要做退縮的機制?有有這個然後這個這要修改法令對不對?\n\n73\n00:27:21,923 --> 00:27:36,588\n其實是我們的規範,不需要到法律的部分。然後這個部分是不是必須要做一個,然後發電的太陽能板也有非常多種。那未來比較高發電效率的太陽能板是什麼?\n\n74\n00:27:37,168 --> 00:28:04,774\n那未來是不是大家應該要採取高就是說高效率的發展的就是高效率發電量的太陽能板這都是需要做一個進一步的檢討不然以目前臺灣剩餘的土地有沒有辦法就是說全面性的發展然後你全面性的發展以外對於民眾而言他們會不會覺得受到困擾因為太陽能板在旁邊很熱嘛很亮嘛\n\n75\n00:28:05,394 --> 00:28:19,339\n這都是一種嫌惡的設施嘛那民眾會這也會影響到民眾居住的品質你不要笑啊太陽能板是邪惡的設施這樣的講法嫌惡啦嫌惡嫌惡\n\n76\n00:28:21,038 --> 00:28:47,435\n你被人家嫌、被人家討厭嘛。你的意思是這樣嗎?太陽能板被人家嫌惡的措施這樣的講法我想跟一般的理解是不太一樣可是我完全尊重委員講法確實太陽能發電的技術一直在進步我同意你的想法就是說如果有更好的技術我們當然要採用啊這個我完全同意然後呢不要讓民眾覺得嫌惡\n\n77\n00:28:51,901 --> 00:29:04,700\n所以兩個部分一個就是如果這個太陽能面板離居住的地方很近了目前我們有規範它四周一定要退縮然後用綠帶來隔離那不要造成這個附近\n\n78\n00:29:39,136 --> 00:30:07,975\n那如果今年的產業的景氣就你們預估還是有可能是往上然後需求增加那用電量增加的情況下那你們緊急用電會不會用到核電這個我們都有準備所以就是說第一個我們當然要發展再生能源第二個我們都會在前一年就會針對比如說今年的話我們前一年就在盤點今年可能的用電的情形那你們自己要不要修核子能反應設施管制法\n\n79\n00:30:08,676 --> 00:30:11,007\n就是我們的核電廠研議的條例。\n\n80\n00:31:01,528 --> 00:31:08,365\n謝謝謝委員依奉的質詢。謝謝陳院長的答詢。接下來我們請林委員國臣\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n649\t3730\t陳建仁院長請陳院長備詢。雖然無案,恭喜你當選連任。謝謝。即使是連任,我們還是要從選前。我們選前的院會其實我有質詢,就是關於2025年的台紐經濟合作協定會導致紐西蘭的紐魯林關稅的進口\n27777\t46182\t那這是2030年7月時候所有臺灣諾農他們的連署書喔。他們希望政府可以協助他們,把他們找到產業未來發展的方向。那我想請問,去年我們也是同樣就是我們三位嘛。\n47082\t65275\t我想請問當初我們的目標是希望臺灣的牛乳自主力還是可以達到7成那以目前為止你們的目標有沒有改變選前選後我想這件事情我們部長有積極的在跟駱龍有做相關的討論我請他做一個回答\n65857\t89107\t我跟那個委員說明就是針對那個臺灣的一個牛乳陰陰那個台牛的一個自由靈觀罪進口的部分我們大概已經從去年的9月到現在大概已經開了大概6次的會議跟洛農本身的一個協調那我們也擬定了整個一個洛農的一個精進的一個計畫抱怨了那主要的內容大概分為幾個部分\n90387\t108775\t第一個部分就是委員所關心的就是我們未來台灣的牛奶本身的自給率的部分那現在目前國內的牛乳的部分大概是46萬噸但是在短期之內因為我們現在把一些比較寡產的這個乳牛做一些淘汰\n109335\t113780\t因為我們現在的牛奶量是不是很多因為從我們夏季的牛乳開始就發生了供過於求的這樣子的問題\n131118\t146623\t是不是?那這個問題目前怎麼解決?所以你們當初在選前有承諾糯農協會承諾那些糯農的朋友你們要補助每一頭牛就是淘汰乳牛2.5萬是不是?\n148564\t176139\t對,我們就是寡產的牛,不是就是他產乳的量比較低的這些牛,寡產的牛我們會有一個就是淘汰的一個機制,對有一個淘汰的機制,那淘汰部分我們會做一些補助,那同樣的就是 那補助是多少?我們現在原來規劃大概是兩萬五左右,但是我們整個的經費現在在抱怨在審核當中,最後的經費我相信我們一定會為弱農爭取最大的一個量,會不會跳票?\n178454\t205482\t他已經在申請了嘛。會不會跳票啊?院長會不會跳票?當然,我們說話算話。不會跳票嘛。那我是不是再請衛福部長,因為其實我們在上一次的時候也提到了,就是說如果未來紐西蘭的這個牛乳進入了台灣的能源系統,你們兩個說法是不一的。我不知道你們現在檢驗的標準已經合而為一了沒有?不要在台灣裡面搞兩次嘛,一國兩制嘛。\n206122\t224657\t我想基本上我們第一個最重要的目標就是要讓我們的消費者認同我們台灣的牛奶所以我們針對標章的部分台灣乳的標章的部分我們已經重新設計了而且也經過酪農跟消費者本身的一個評選那是就台灣先入的部分對台灣的部分對\n225578\t242755\t但是如果進入冷鏈系統呢,未來紐西蘭的牛乳如果進入臺灣的冷鏈系統裡面,當初我們衛福部薛部長也是薛部長嘛,你說以目前你們的檢驗方法是沒有辦法區分紐西蘭的牛乳跟臺灣的鮮乳。\n243956\t246659\t那如果他們是mixed,就是說在冷電系統裡面已經mixed,\n259676\t281074\t那你們有辦法檢驗出來嗎?我們可以查得出來所以我們現在透過標準的方式但是未來但是你們的續產所可以但是未來到了市場以後甚至到了各縣市以後都是由衛福部以及各縣市的衛生所去做集合的工作對不對?\n283096\t307214\t對。不過這要標示啦。從進來開始。我知道可是未來到時候也會有集合的動作啊。那集合的動作是踩衛福部的標準還是踩農業部的標準?我想整個的標章制度是由衛福部這邊規範的。那進口跟國產的區分只要它是混的然後沒有標示的時候那就是違法。\n308260\t329708\t那第二個部分我要跟委員說明的就是違法違法是一件事情我當然知道只要混的就是違法但是如果混的你沒有辦法查的時候那你怎麼知道他違法我跟委員說明齁後市場的查那個是需要比較耗費大的人力跟物力所以我們現在設計是說我們在源頭的時候爐廠的時候我們台灣爐標章的時候\n337735\t355031\t委員你現在講的就是說我們如果有這個牛乳的履歷然後有牛乳的標章然後看是台灣牛還是有西南牛你現在擔心的就是說有一些人少數的人他會去混用但是混用抓到當然就處罰\n356332\t363094\t問題是怎麼抓?問題是到時候是採怎麼樣的檢驗方式嗎?那農業部應該既然農業部現在認為他們已經有辦法查核這樣子就是把就是未來外國的牛乳混沖成臺灣的鮮奶的時候那這樣子查核的機制總要給大家知道嘛\n385021\t388743\t我們的技術一定要經過衛福部這邊經過一個程序認可以後就變成一個公告的法定的方法\n410416\t411276\t我知道啊,我就是在問你說\n439284\t460394\t你們這個部分要統合清楚嘛,是不是?到時候檢查的才不會標準不一嘛。他們去年說法是不一的嘛。去年是因為還沒有這個方法嘛,那現在已經統一了嘛。所以委員你不用擔心,我們一定不會各步走各的路,一定是整合在一起。\n461480\t478574\t還有我們還提到了就是畜牧業的廢棄物那不只是一般的廢棄物甚至是他們的糞尿的這個廢棄物其實目前民眾對於這些廢棄物的處理方式還是大有疑慮\n479415\t481256\t我跟委員說明就是整個\n503731\t526492\t續產的部分的這些廢棄物我們現在把它把它稱為農業剩餘資材因為它還可以再利用的部分然後這個再利用的部分我舉個例子就是養豬場本身的那些過去一直被詬病的那個情緒那樣的污水我們現在用高床的處理高床的處理的話就減少的用水那相對的它整個污水量就會變少然後把這些\n527293\t549554\t對我知道那你們到底處理了多少我們彰化縣你們處理了多少你們補助了多少續設你們做了多少這樣子高床的設施減少就是這樣子就是他們這些資材的我想彰化的部分我可能要查但是以整體來講就是整個畜牧場裡面有大概有4\n550935\t567572\t應該就2000多場在申請在改建了那totally大概有5000多場所以已經將近有三成的全國來講將近有三成的這些養豬場已經在做這樣的一個改善的部分張嬅有多少張嬅我想廢後我們廢後再提供給你廢後我再提供給你數字給你阿\n573699\t594979\t對啊,執行完我們再給委員拜訪。對啊,那環境部呢?環境部你們到底在協助這部分,你們還是用潮運車,那有沒有更先進的方式呢?因為潮運車去運送這個過程當中還是會產生就是不必要的衛道啊或者是髒亂也好,那怎麼樣子減少這部分?\n596183\t619713\t給謝委員報告這一塊我們是希望說能夠在地把它做一個循環的應用而不需要再用潮運車運到其他地方去處理所以這一塊我們會跟農業部那如果你們現在已經未來你們預估的方式是採用在地利用我甚至不知道你們在地利用這個方式到520之後會不會改變\n621296\t643388\t這個政策應該是不會改變,因為資源的循環事實上是未來的一個趨勢。我想這個農業沒有廢棄物啦,農業資源這些剩餘資產的這個再利用我們是一定是一貫的,而且不管是在現在或者520以後當然是因為還是仍然同一個\n645526\t649858\t政黨在執政嗎?怎麼可能會改變?我給你看下一張,你看這個\n652280\t678277\t這個是2024年1月22號我們嘉義縣的翁縣長他說的他說在嘉義台塘有非常多的地可以歡迎台積電來利用那我想請問為什麼我們在選前的時候也積極在爭取我們彰化縣也有非常多台塘的土地那甚至在這個我們20也希望設置20精密機械園區\n679878\t697950\t像設置二齡精密機械園區這樣子的難道是臺堂的農地發展成工業區的條件是不是跨縣市有不同選前選後有不同到時候換政府就是換政府執政的時候會不會有不同\n698564\t721184\t委員你講話不必要這樣講我想讓我們部長來說明我先跟委員說明就是惡靈機械的精密園區本身事實上在97年就開始有一些相關的一個環評的一個審查那現在最大的一個問題就是在這個園區裡面它有所謂的兩種鳥類就是那個黑\n722125\t743754\t黑尾菸還有一個雁橫這兩個保育類的鳥類必須要做適當的一個解決方案讓這個棲地能夠得以維持那目前為止到了大概去年12月的時候彰化縣政府提供的這些解決方案並沒有做任何跟他之前所提出來的說法有改變\n744474\t765961\t換句話說在這個兩個保育類還沒有還沒有把它找到解決方案之前那個環評的二階的環評他大會是沒辦法召開的所以現在是目前的卡關是在整個保育類的部分那我們農業部會跟彰化縣政府我們也提過了我們會跟我們的生物多樣性研究所一起來努力把這個那個解決方案把它找出來\n767666\t794320\t過去我們在發展其實這已經很久了在王惠美縣長之前甚至在那個衛明谷縣長的時候都已經提出這個惡靈精密機械元素那時候都沒有提出有這個保育鳥類的問題可是為什麼突然之間就產生這個問題甚至我們就是發現說沒有那環評大會在之前好像都沒有提出相關的問題\n795460\t810554\t但是我想要請教的就是為什麼在嘉義是台積電可以使用台塘的農地而我們20的精密機械園區沒有辦法使用台塘的農地那是不是跨縣市有不同?\n811915\t831484\t當然不是。以農業部來講,我們是針對土地本身的一個可利用性,跟它土壤的質地。我們不會去管說地上物是台湯的土地或是私人的土地或是國有地的部分。這第一個要說明。第二個要說明的就是我們在針對\n833366\t854748\t我們一定會跟產業就是我們的經濟發展做一些相關的配合但是在配合的過程中我們會針對裡面如果說有有機的栽培區我們就會去提醒如果你要做一個園區就一定要想辦法把有機栽培園區做妥適的處理那如果裡面它有保育有棲地的必要性的時候那我們也會做提醒\n855248\t878418\t那如果說提醒過了以後他有做適度的一個解決方案的時候那通常就不會有問題以惡靈精密園區來講我們在100年的時候就已經同意他做農地變更了對我就說他本來在之前他就已經同意要變成就是精密工業園區但是那個王美花部長已經在後面等了給他講一下好了\n880054\t905978\t是不是就產業別有差別到底我們臺灣的精密機械產業有沒有前景還是以目前來看我們的電力上漲可能未來也有碳費的問題等等的再加上我們跟周邊國家的關稅貿易協定以及雙方的關稅貿易協定都沒有簽訂再加上地緣政治的問題讓臺灣的傳產\n909059\t930914\t都發生了非常重大的結構性的問題是不是我們經濟部就乾脆讓這些隱形冠軍讓這些傳產讓他們自然淘汰沒有辦法有生活的不會不會絕對不會我們其實非常重視委員提到這些產業那我們也希望他能夠升級轉型那委員提到這個惡靈精密園區因為他兩個步驟一個是都市\n936118\t959241\t﹚議員﹚\n959642\t964088\t所以整個步驟目前是還在進行當中。另外一個問題常常在環評也被問到一個問題目前的這個\n972642\t988707\t科學園區的進駐率有沒有提升那這個也會就是說提升了以後就表示這個用地的需求一直在增加那這樣也會對我們開發20精密園區的需要性也會比較有幫助那所以這幾個問題的部分\n990607\t1010580\t那經濟部也會來跟相關的部會合作還是你們就是默默的就把他移到嘉義啊?就是你在我這台上不見嘉義有嘉義的嘉義的台湯的農地都比較不會產生保育類的那個動物啊委員你這樣說的話不是事實啊就是移到不會有抗爭啊\n1011721\t1012361\t你如果再跟我講這個那我再跟你提到了\n1040106\t1057442\t那但是同樣的我發現了很多的光電業者他們要在我們的濕地就是方圓鄉啊大城鄉等等的濕地建立光電的就是要設置太陽光板那\n1057902\t1082668\t我問你現在目前如果像這樣子的精密機械園區做的是比較有大規模的經濟我也想要請問那在那樣子的情況下為什麼有時候光電業者可以跟國產署對於相關的農地來申請變更成就是特殊事業用地嘛做光電的生產\n1083328\t1104750\t那為什麼有時候在這樣子比較重大有工業就是有一些經濟前景的情況下這種大規模的有那個聚酪效應的產業沒有辦法使用這些農地而這些零碎性的可以使用農地那這對於環境的影響\n1106772\t1121147\t我跟委員說明齁,現在目前以農地提供作為光電用使用的部分大概分為三大類。第一大類就是漁電工程區。那這個漁電工程區大概20905公頃。那第二個部分是不利耕作區是2162公頃。\n1124170\t1149523\t那第三個部分是,大概是用農地變更的方式。這些地的圈出來之前,它都一定經過生態檢核跟環社的一個檢核。檢核完了,確定了它不,這裡面的區位是沒有跟所謂的棲地,我們必須要保護的棲地有關,我們才會把它框出來。所以它有一定的,對。縣長,我跟妳說好不好。他們跟我講說,\n1151424\t1169674\t現在多少面積的光電需要申請環評?光電目前不是,是用環射檢測的部分,因為它對環境的影響相對跟設工廠本來就不太一樣。多少面積需要申請環射?\n1171712\t1187509\t其實是區域的問題,那我們就跟農業部合作來做相關的...因為我聽到的現況,我們都在政府部門工作嘛,那我們必須要了解實地的狀況嘛。\n1189031\t1203486\t現況是他們就化整為零啊。他們就把那個就是同樣一個區塊,他們可以申請設立公司多一點,然後分塊來就是申請。那減少需要面臨這種環評或環社的條件啊。\n1205728\t1223563\t反射檢測不會因為你的面積變小了就不做反射檢測就在我剛才說的就在我們所框定的漁電工程區兩萬多公頃我們已經初步做反射的一個檢核比較低敏感的但是你在申請的時候同樣會再確認一次\n1224284\t1253564\t不管你是一公頃或是十公頃都還是要經過環社的檢核過這個是在整個的申請過程中一個必要的一個條件以農業部來講我們一定會去保護我們的農地所以到目前為止20905公頃裡面的餘電公升值用了大概2200多公頃不到十分之一不利工作區也用不到三分之一就是因為我們持續在跟經濟部一起努力有做一個非常嚴謹的審查不會對我們生態造成一些影響\n1254804\t1271349\t但是在過去的時候在之前的時候其實就已經你們都把就是說國產署的土地或者是各部會的土地都已經希望設定成就是大家共同來推光電了是不是?\n1272659\t1276203\t我知道說我具體我們一定是先盤出說這個合不合適射光墊然後才會去推如果那個區域是不合適我們第一關就會被農委會打槍了不太可能\n1287899\t1312456\t我想部會是整合的啦委員你會有你的懷疑那是我是尊重但是我要跟委員報告在整個關店的發展上實際上我們部會之間都有很密切的協調我們是希望能夠在環境保育做得很好而且呢能夠發展關店的情況下一起來推動所以你會覺得哎呀怎麼會審查這麼多這麼多\n1315098\t1342679\t問題就是說希望台灣能夠有產業的發展又有環境的保護通通能夠兼顧嘛所以你這樣講片面的實際上不是我們的情況我們部會是合作的我也是把就是說目前民眾他們的想法跟你分享嘛民眾的想法有些可能不正確啦我們必須要在這裡就是要對於國家未來的政策總是要在這裡達到溝通達到全民共識的方向啦對不對\n1343459\t1343841\t這是台電的上一張。\n1353380\t1375032\t我們看到這是臺電它的發電成本那其實我們自發的電力在再生能源我們自發的電力是1.72塊在2022年的時候2023年的時候是2.53那其實我們都比購入的電力都非常的都是低很多那所以民眾就會希望說是不是\n1376213\t1402048\t尤其是非常多中小企業廠商他們沒有辦法花那麼多錢那再加上有可能3月份的電價審議委員會未來對於電價的發電也會做適當的調整那這可能都會漲到民生電價以及所有的產業的用電那這個部分我們有沒有辦法調整再生能源的這個電價呢\n1404509\t1429974\t在聖誕園部分事實上現在對新的這個離岸風電其實都已經是讓民間來買電了不用短購費率那所以臺電對離岸風電沒有再用這個短購費率來收購那太陽光電的部分事實上從今年開始那越來越多的企業會把甚至現在的短購費率會變成是他們自己去買電\n1430974\t1446204\t所以這個太陽光電來賺購匯率給台電的部分的占比呢也會逐漸的來降低啦那因為發展再生能源對整個國家是很必須的所以我們還是要支持這個再生能源的發展\n1447399\t1471786\t對可是我們即便是很必須我也我也認為啦因為未來整個就是說世界的趨勢但是在目前我們我們目前看到其實我有找了一張就是你們去年跟前年的電力供應供需的概況發現了其實我們今年度的就是工業用電就是減少非常大嗎\n1472586\t1499033\t然後我們的工業用電工業部門的用電它的需求是暫比是56.1%嘛它就降低了2.8%所以在其實這是因為全球景氣的關係以及我們是仰賴出口的關係那導致於我們目前沒有缺電的問題有可能是因為景氣不好那工廠的生產沒有這麼大的需求的情況下所導致我們電力需求沒有這麼高的情況下\n1499713\t1521669\t那是不是在這個時間點我們對於光電的這個發展要進行一些調整啊?我們再回來看喔就是看我們的電力結構裡面喔其實我們發現再生能源即便是我不要講你們是錯誤的能源錯誤能源等一下你陳院長就跳腳啦但是我們總要節省\n1524591\t1552110\t我們總要檢討一下嗎?因為即便是目前我們希望我們的再生能源占比增加但是以目前你們的速度要達到你們2025年想要的20%的那個目標是遠遠不可能除非技術進步那現在目前我們有什麼樣子技術進步的能量嗎?\n1553482\t1569250\t是不是能夠讓我們2025可以而且我再說一下尤其是太陽能光店我有看過臺電的就是太陽能光店的發展跟一般就是民間的太陽能光店的發展\n1569890\t1598735\t其實為什麼民眾對於光電業的發展認為需要做部分的檢討那就是在法令限制的模糊的空間裡面第一個我們有沒有辦法提高太陽能光電的效率嗎即便我們要再生能源我們也希望說技術進步可以促進光電發電的效率嗎在既有的就是設施上面我們有沒有辦法提高光電的發電效率以及\n1599275\t1603739\t所以在法令上面有沒有可能在520之前你們做一個檢討在法規上面做改變\n1618314\t1640563\t委員我聽不太懂這個退縮的機制是什麼?我是說就是不是他在一塊地裡面例如他比較接近民宅或者是接近因為有時候接近民宅他是可以設置光電的那這個部分你要不要做退縮的機制?有有這個然後這個這要修改法令對不對?\n1641923\t1656588\t其實是我們的規範,不需要到法律的部分。然後這個部分是不是必須要做一個,然後發電的太陽能板也有非常多種。那未來比較高發電效率的太陽能板是什麼?\n1657168\t1684774\t那未來是不是大家應該要採取高就是說高效率的發展的就是高效率發電量的太陽能板這都是需要做一個進一步的檢討不然以目前臺灣剩餘的土地有沒有辦法就是說全面性的發展然後你全面性的發展以外對於民眾而言他們會不會覺得受到困擾因為太陽能板在旁邊很熱嘛很亮嘛\n1685394\t1699339\t這都是一種嫌惡的設施嘛那民眾會這也會影響到民眾居住的品質你不要笑啊太陽能板是邪惡的設施這樣的講法嫌惡啦嫌惡嫌惡\n1701038\t1727435\t你被人家嫌、被人家討厭嘛。你的意思是這樣嗎?太陽能板被人家嫌惡的措施這樣的講法我想跟一般的理解是不太一樣可是我完全尊重委員講法確實太陽能發電的技術一直在進步我同意你的想法就是說如果有更好的技術我們當然要採用啊這個我完全同意然後呢不要讓民眾覺得嫌惡\n1731901\t1744700\t所以兩個部分一個就是如果這個太陽能面板離居住的地方很近了目前我們有規範它四周一定要退縮然後用綠帶來隔離那不要造成這個附近\n1744940\t1762381\t﹏﹏\n1762381\t1779036\t﹚議員﹚\n1779136\t1807975\t那如果今年的產業的景氣就你們預估還是有可能是往上然後需求增加那用電量增加的情況下那你們緊急用電會不會用到核電這個我們都有準備所以就是說第一個我們當然要發展再生能源第二個我們都會在前一年就會針對比如說今年的話我們前一年就在盤點今年可能的用電的情形那你們自己要不要修核子能反應設施管制法\n1808676\t1811007\t就是我們的核電廠研議的條例。\n1861528\t1868365\t謝謝謝委員依奉的質詢。謝謝陳院長的答詢。接下來我們請林委員國臣\n","txt":"陳建仁院長請陳院長備詢。雖然無案,恭喜你當選連任。謝謝。即使是連任,我們還是要從選前。我們選前的院會其實我有質詢,就是關於2025年的台紐經濟合作協定會導致紐西蘭的紐魯林關稅的進口\n那這是2030年7月時候所有臺灣諾農他們的連署書喔。他們希望政府可以協助他們,把他們找到產業未來發展的方向。那我想請問,去年我們也是同樣就是我們三位嘛。\n我想請問當初我們的目標是希望臺灣的牛乳自主力還是可以達到7成那以目前為止你們的目標有沒有改變選前選後我想這件事情我們部長有積極的在跟駱龍有做相關的討論我請他做一個回答\n我跟那個委員說明就是針對那個臺灣的一個牛乳陰陰那個台牛的一個自由靈觀罪進口的部分我們大概已經從去年的9月到現在大概已經開了大概6次的會議跟洛農本身的一個協調那我們也擬定了整個一個洛農的一個精進的一個計畫抱怨了那主要的內容大概分為幾個部分\n第一個部分就是委員所關心的就是我們未來台灣的牛奶本身的自給率的部分那現在目前國內的牛乳的部分大概是46萬噸但是在短期之內因為我們現在把一些比較寡產的這個乳牛做一些淘汰\n因為我們現在的牛奶量是不是很多因為從我們夏季的牛乳開始就發生了供過於求的這樣子的問題\n是不是?那這個問題目前怎麼解決?所以你們當初在選前有承諾糯農協會承諾那些糯農的朋友你們要補助每一頭牛就是淘汰乳牛2.5萬是不是?\n對,我們就是寡產的牛,不是就是他產乳的量比較低的這些牛,寡產的牛我們會有一個就是淘汰的一個機制,對有一個淘汰的機制,那淘汰部分我們會做一些補助,那同樣的就是 那補助是多少?我們現在原來規劃大概是兩萬五左右,但是我們整個的經費現在在抱怨在審核當中,最後的經費我相信我們一定會為弱農爭取最大的一個量,會不會跳票?\n他已經在申請了嘛。會不會跳票啊?院長會不會跳票?當然,我們說話算話。不會跳票嘛。那我是不是再請衛福部長,因為其實我們在上一次的時候也提到了,就是說如果未來紐西蘭的這個牛乳進入了台灣的能源系統,你們兩個說法是不一的。我不知道你們現在檢驗的標準已經合而為一了沒有?不要在台灣裡面搞兩次嘛,一國兩制嘛。\n我想基本上我們第一個最重要的目標就是要讓我們的消費者認同我們台灣的牛奶所以我們針對標章的部分台灣乳的標章的部分我們已經重新設計了而且也經過酪農跟消費者本身的一個評選那是就台灣先入的部分對台灣的部分對\n但是如果進入冷鏈系統呢,未來紐西蘭的牛乳如果進入臺灣的冷鏈系統裡面,當初我們衛福部薛部長也是薛部長嘛,你說以目前你們的檢驗方法是沒有辦法區分紐西蘭的牛乳跟臺灣的鮮乳。\n那如果他們是mixed,就是說在冷電系統裡面已經mixed,\n那你們有辦法檢驗出來嗎?我們可以查得出來所以我們現在透過標準的方式但是未來但是你們的續產所可以但是未來到了市場以後甚至到了各縣市以後都是由衛福部以及各縣市的衛生所去做集合的工作對不對?\n對。不過這要標示啦。從進來開始。我知道可是未來到時候也會有集合的動作啊。那集合的動作是踩衛福部的標準還是踩農業部的標準?我想整個的標章制度是由衛福部這邊規範的。那進口跟國產的區分只要它是混的然後沒有標示的時候那就是違法。\n那第二個部分我要跟委員說明的就是違法違法是一件事情我當然知道只要混的就是違法但是如果混的你沒有辦法查的時候那你怎麼知道他違法我跟委員說明齁後市場的查那個是需要比較耗費大的人力跟物力所以我們現在設計是說我們在源頭的時候爐廠的時候我們台灣爐標章的時候\n委員你現在講的就是說我們如果有這個牛乳的履歷然後有牛乳的標章然後看是台灣牛還是有西南牛你現在擔心的就是說有一些人少數的人他會去混用但是混用抓到當然就處罰\n問題是怎麼抓?問題是到時候是採怎麼樣的檢驗方式嗎?那農業部應該既然農業部現在認為他們已經有辦法查核這樣子就是把就是未來外國的牛乳混沖成臺灣的鮮奶的時候那這樣子查核的機制總要給大家知道嘛\n我們的技術一定要經過衛福部這邊經過一個程序認可以後就變成一個公告的法定的方法\n我知道啊,我就是在問你說\n你們這個部分要統合清楚嘛,是不是?到時候檢查的才不會標準不一嘛。他們去年說法是不一的嘛。去年是因為還沒有這個方法嘛,那現在已經統一了嘛。所以委員你不用擔心,我們一定不會各步走各的路,一定是整合在一起。\n還有我們還提到了就是畜牧業的廢棄物那不只是一般的廢棄物甚至是他們的糞尿的這個廢棄物其實目前民眾對於這些廢棄物的處理方式還是大有疑慮\n我跟委員說明就是整個\n續產的部分的這些廢棄物我們現在把它把它稱為農業剩餘資材因為它還可以再利用的部分然後這個再利用的部分我舉個例子就是養豬場本身的那些過去一直被詬病的那個情緒那樣的污水我們現在用高床的處理高床的處理的話就減少的用水那相對的它整個污水量就會變少然後把這些\n對我知道那你們到底處理了多少我們彰化縣你們處理了多少你們補助了多少續設你們做了多少這樣子高床的設施減少就是這樣子就是他們這些資材的我想彰化的部分我可能要查但是以整體來講就是整個畜牧場裡面有大概有4\n應該就2000多場在申請在改建了那totally大概有5000多場所以已經將近有三成的全國來講將近有三成的這些養豬場已經在做這樣的一個改善的部分張嬅有多少張嬅我想廢後我們廢後再提供給你廢後我再提供給你數字給你阿\n對啊,執行完我們再給委員拜訪。對啊,那環境部呢?環境部你們到底在協助這部分,你們還是用潮運車,那有沒有更先進的方式呢?因為潮運車去運送這個過程當中還是會產生就是不必要的衛道啊或者是髒亂也好,那怎麼樣子減少這部分?\n給謝委員報告這一塊我們是希望說能夠在地把它做一個循環的應用而不需要再用潮運車運到其他地方去處理所以這一塊我們會跟農業部那如果你們現在已經未來你們預估的方式是採用在地利用我甚至不知道你們在地利用這個方式到520之後會不會改變\n這個政策應該是不會改變,因為資源的循環事實上是未來的一個趨勢。我想這個農業沒有廢棄物啦,農業資源這些剩餘資產的這個再利用我們是一定是一貫的,而且不管是在現在或者520以後當然是因為還是仍然同一個\n政黨在執政嗎?怎麼可能會改變?我給你看下一張,你看這個\n這個是2024年1月22號我們嘉義縣的翁縣長他說的他說在嘉義台塘有非常多的地可以歡迎台積電來利用那我想請問為什麼我們在選前的時候也積極在爭取我們彰化縣也有非常多台塘的土地那甚至在這個我們20也希望設置20精密機械園區\n像設置二齡精密機械園區這樣子的難道是臺堂的農地發展成工業區的條件是不是跨縣市有不同選前選後有不同到時候換政府就是換政府執政的時候會不會有不同\n委員你講話不必要這樣講我想讓我們部長來說明我先跟委員說明就是惡靈機械的精密園區本身事實上在97年就開始有一些相關的一個環評的一個審查那現在最大的一個問題就是在這個園區裡面它有所謂的兩種鳥類就是那個黑\n黑尾菸還有一個雁橫這兩個保育類的鳥類必須要做適當的一個解決方案讓這個棲地能夠得以維持那目前為止到了大概去年12月的時候彰化縣政府提供的這些解決方案並沒有做任何跟他之前所提出來的說法有改變\n換句話說在這個兩個保育類還沒有還沒有把它找到解決方案之前那個環評的二階的環評他大會是沒辦法召開的所以現在是目前的卡關是在整個保育類的部分那我們農業部會跟彰化縣政府我們也提過了我們會跟我們的生物多樣性研究所一起來努力把這個那個解決方案把它找出來\n過去我們在發展其實這已經很久了在王惠美縣長之前甚至在那個衛明谷縣長的時候都已經提出這個惡靈精密機械元素那時候都沒有提出有這個保育鳥類的問題可是為什麼突然之間就產生這個問題甚至我們就是發現說沒有那環評大會在之前好像都沒有提出相關的問題\n但是我想要請教的就是為什麼在嘉義是台積電可以使用台塘的農地而我們20的精密機械園區沒有辦法使用台塘的農地那是不是跨縣市有不同?\n當然不是。以農業部來講,我們是針對土地本身的一個可利用性,跟它土壤的質地。我們不會去管說地上物是台湯的土地或是私人的土地或是國有地的部分。這第一個要說明。第二個要說明的就是我們在針對\n我們一定會跟產業就是我們的經濟發展做一些相關的配合但是在配合的過程中我們會針對裡面如果說有有機的栽培區我們就會去提醒如果你要做一個園區就一定要想辦法把有機栽培園區做妥適的處理那如果裡面它有保育有棲地的必要性的時候那我們也會做提醒\n那如果說提醒過了以後他有做適度的一個解決方案的時候那通常就不會有問題以惡靈精密園區來講我們在100年的時候就已經同意他做農地變更了對我就說他本來在之前他就已經同意要變成就是精密工業園區但是那個王美花部長已經在後面等了給他講一下好了\n是不是就產業別有差別到底我們臺灣的精密機械產業有沒有前景還是以目前來看我們的電力上漲可能未來也有碳費的問題等等的再加上我們跟周邊國家的關稅貿易協定以及雙方的關稅貿易協定都沒有簽訂再加上地緣政治的問題讓臺灣的傳產\n都發生了非常重大的結構性的問題是不是我們經濟部就乾脆讓這些隱形冠軍讓這些傳產讓他們自然淘汰沒有辦法有生活的不會不會絕對不會我們其實非常重視委員提到這些產業那我們也希望他能夠升級轉型那委員提到這個惡靈精密園區因為他兩個步驟一個是都市\n﹚議員﹚\n所以整個步驟目前是還在進行當中。另外一個問題常常在環評也被問到一個問題目前的這個\n科學園區的進駐率有沒有提升那這個也會就是說提升了以後就表示這個用地的需求一直在增加那這樣也會對我們開發20精密園區的需要性也會比較有幫助那所以這幾個問題的部分\n那經濟部也會來跟相關的部會合作還是你們就是默默的就把他移到嘉義啊?就是你在我這台上不見嘉義有嘉義的嘉義的台湯的農地都比較不會產生保育類的那個動物啊委員你這樣說的話不是事實啊就是移到不會有抗爭啊\n你如果再跟我講這個那我再跟你提到了\n那但是同樣的我發現了很多的光電業者他們要在我們的濕地就是方圓鄉啊大城鄉等等的濕地建立光電的就是要設置太陽光板那\n我問你現在目前如果像這樣子的精密機械園區做的是比較有大規模的經濟我也想要請問那在那樣子的情況下為什麼有時候光電業者可以跟國產署對於相關的農地來申請變更成就是特殊事業用地嘛做光電的生產\n那為什麼有時候在這樣子比較重大有工業就是有一些經濟前景的情況下這種大規模的有那個聚酪效應的產業沒有辦法使用這些農地而這些零碎性的可以使用農地那這對於環境的影響\n我跟委員說明齁,現在目前以農地提供作為光電用使用的部分大概分為三大類。第一大類就是漁電工程區。那這個漁電工程區大概20905公頃。那第二個部分是不利耕作區是2162公頃。\n那第三個部分是,大概是用農地變更的方式。這些地的圈出來之前,它都一定經過生態檢核跟環社的一個檢核。檢核完了,確定了它不,這裡面的區位是沒有跟所謂的棲地,我們必須要保護的棲地有關,我們才會把它框出來。所以它有一定的,對。縣長,我跟妳說好不好。他們跟我講說,\n現在多少面積的光電需要申請環評?光電目前不是,是用環射檢測的部分,因為它對環境的影響相對跟設工廠本來就不太一樣。多少面積需要申請環射?\n其實是區域的問題,那我們就跟農業部合作來做相關的...因為我聽到的現況,我們都在政府部門工作嘛,那我們必須要了解實地的狀況嘛。\n現況是他們就化整為零啊。他們就把那個就是同樣一個區塊,他們可以申請設立公司多一點,然後分塊來就是申請。那減少需要面臨這種環評或環社的條件啊。\n反射檢測不會因為你的面積變小了就不做反射檢測就在我剛才說的就在我們所框定的漁電工程區兩萬多公頃我們已經初步做反射的一個檢核比較低敏感的但是你在申請的時候同樣會再確認一次\n不管你是一公頃或是十公頃都還是要經過環社的檢核過這個是在整個的申請過程中一個必要的一個條件以農業部來講我們一定會去保護我們的農地所以到目前為止20905公頃裡面的餘電公升值用了大概2200多公頃不到十分之一不利工作區也用不到三分之一就是因為我們持續在跟經濟部一起努力有做一個非常嚴謹的審查不會對我們生態造成一些影響\n但是在過去的時候在之前的時候其實就已經你們都把就是說國產署的土地或者是各部會的土地都已經希望設定成就是大家共同來推光電了是不是?\n我知道說我具體我們一定是先盤出說這個合不合適射光墊然後才會去推如果那個區域是不合適我們第一關就會被農委會打槍了不太可能\n我想部會是整合的啦委員你會有你的懷疑那是我是尊重但是我要跟委員報告在整個關店的發展上實際上我們部會之間都有很密切的協調我們是希望能夠在環境保育做得很好而且呢能夠發展關店的情況下一起來推動所以你會覺得哎呀怎麼會審查這麼多這麼多\n問題就是說希望台灣能夠有產業的發展又有環境的保護通通能夠兼顧嘛所以你這樣講片面的實際上不是我們的情況我們部會是合作的我也是把就是說目前民眾他們的想法跟你分享嘛民眾的想法有些可能不正確啦我們必須要在這裡就是要對於國家未來的政策總是要在這裡達到溝通達到全民共識的方向啦對不對\n這是台電的上一張。\n我們看到這是臺電它的發電成本那其實我們自發的電力在再生能源我們自發的電力是1.72塊在2022年的時候2023年的時候是2.53那其實我們都比購入的電力都非常的都是低很多那所以民眾就會希望說是不是\n尤其是非常多中小企業廠商他們沒有辦法花那麼多錢那再加上有可能3月份的電價審議委員會未來對於電價的發電也會做適當的調整那這可能都會漲到民生電價以及所有的產業的用電那這個部分我們有沒有辦法調整再生能源的這個電價呢\n在聖誕園部分事實上現在對新的這個離岸風電其實都已經是讓民間來買電了不用短購費率那所以臺電對離岸風電沒有再用這個短購費率來收購那太陽光電的部分事實上從今年開始那越來越多的企業會把甚至現在的短購費率會變成是他們自己去買電\n所以這個太陽光電來賺購匯率給台電的部分的占比呢也會逐漸的來降低啦那因為發展再生能源對整個國家是很必須的所以我們還是要支持這個再生能源的發展\n對可是我們即便是很必須我也我也認為啦因為未來整個就是說世界的趨勢但是在目前我們我們目前看到其實我有找了一張就是你們去年跟前年的電力供應供需的概況發現了其實我們今年度的就是工業用電就是減少非常大嗎\n然後我們的工業用電工業部門的用電它的需求是暫比是56.1%嘛它就降低了2.8%所以在其實這是因為全球景氣的關係以及我們是仰賴出口的關係那導致於我們目前沒有缺電的問題有可能是因為景氣不好那工廠的生產沒有這麼大的需求的情況下所導致我們電力需求沒有這麼高的情況下\n那是不是在這個時間點我們對於光電的這個發展要進行一些調整啊?我們再回來看喔就是看我們的電力結構裡面喔其實我們發現再生能源即便是我不要講你們是錯誤的能源錯誤能源等一下你陳院長就跳腳啦但是我們總要節省\n我們總要檢討一下嗎?因為即便是目前我們希望我們的再生能源占比增加但是以目前你們的速度要達到你們2025年想要的20%的那個目標是遠遠不可能除非技術進步那現在目前我們有什麼樣子技術進步的能量嗎?\n是不是能夠讓我們2025可以而且我再說一下尤其是太陽能光店我有看過臺電的就是太陽能光店的發展跟一般就是民間的太陽能光店的發展\n其實為什麼民眾對於光電業的發展認為需要做部分的檢討那就是在法令限制的模糊的空間裡面第一個我們有沒有辦法提高太陽能光電的效率嗎即便我們要再生能源我們也希望說技術進步可以促進光電發電的效率嗎在既有的就是設施上面我們有沒有辦法提高光電的發電效率以及\n所以在法令上面有沒有可能在520之前你們做一個檢討在法規上面做改變\n委員我聽不太懂這個退縮的機制是什麼?我是說就是不是他在一塊地裡面例如他比較接近民宅或者是接近因為有時候接近民宅他是可以設置光電的那這個部分你要不要做退縮的機制?有有這個然後這個這要修改法令對不對?\n其實是我們的規範,不需要到法律的部分。然後這個部分是不是必須要做一個,然後發電的太陽能板也有非常多種。那未來比較高發電效率的太陽能板是什麼?\n那未來是不是大家應該要採取高就是說高效率的發展的就是高效率發電量的太陽能板這都是需要做一個進一步的檢討不然以目前臺灣剩餘的土地有沒有辦法就是說全面性的發展然後你全面性的發展以外對於民眾而言他們會不會覺得受到困擾因為太陽能板在旁邊很熱嘛很亮嘛\n這都是一種嫌惡的設施嘛那民眾會這也會影響到民眾居住的品質你不要笑啊太陽能板是邪惡的設施這樣的講法嫌惡啦嫌惡嫌惡\n你被人家嫌、被人家討厭嘛。你的意思是這樣嗎?太陽能板被人家嫌惡的措施這樣的講法我想跟一般的理解是不太一樣可是我完全尊重委員講法確實太陽能發電的技術一直在進步我同意你的想法就是說如果有更好的技術我們當然要採用啊這個我完全同意然後呢不要讓民眾覺得嫌惡\n所以兩個部分一個就是如果這個太陽能面板離居住的地方很近了目前我們有規範它四周一定要退縮然後用綠帶來隔離那不要造成這個附近\n﹏﹏\n﹚議員﹚\n那如果今年的產業的景氣就你們預估還是有可能是往上然後需求增加那用電量增加的情況下那你們緊急用電會不會用到核電這個我們都有準備所以就是說第一個我們當然要發展再生能源第二個我們都會在前一年就會針對比如說今年的話我們前一年就在盤點今年可能的用電的情形那你們自己要不要修核子能反應設施管制法\n就是我們的核電廠研議的條例。\n謝謝謝委員依奉的質詢。謝謝陳院長的答詢。接下來我們請林委員國臣\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.649 --> 00:03.730\n陳建仁院長請陳院長備詢。雖然無案,恭喜你當選連任。謝謝。即使是連任,我們還是要從選前。我們選前的院會其實我有質詢,就是關於2025年的台紐經濟合作協定會導致紐西蘭的紐魯林關稅的進口\n\n00:27.777 --> 00:46.182\n那這是2030年7月時候所有臺灣諾農他們的連署書喔。他們希望政府可以協助他們,把他們找到產業未來發展的方向。那我想請問,去年我們也是同樣就是我們三位嘛。\n\n00:47.082 --> 01:05.275\n我想請問當初我們的目標是希望臺灣的牛乳自主力還是可以達到7成那以目前為止你們的目標有沒有改變選前選後我想這件事情我們部長有積極的在跟駱龍有做相關的討論我請他做一個回答\n\n01:05.857 --> 01:29.107\n我跟那個委員說明就是針對那個臺灣的一個牛乳陰陰那個台牛的一個自由靈觀罪進口的部分我們大概已經從去年的9月到現在大概已經開了大概6次的會議跟洛農本身的一個協調那我們也擬定了整個一個洛農的一個精進的一個計畫抱怨了那主要的內容大概分為幾個部分\n\n01:30.387 --> 01:48.775\n第一個部分就是委員所關心的就是我們未來台灣的牛奶本身的自給率的部分那現在目前國內的牛乳的部分大概是46萬噸但是在短期之內因為我們現在把一些比較寡產的這個乳牛做一些淘汰\n\n01:49.335 --> 01:53.780\n因為我們現在的牛奶量是不是很多因為從我們夏季的牛乳開始就發生了供過於求的這樣子的問題\n\n02:11.118 --> 02:26.623\n是不是?那這個問題目前怎麼解決?所以你們當初在選前有承諾糯農協會承諾那些糯農的朋友你們要補助每一頭牛就是淘汰乳牛2.5萬是不是?\n\n02:28.564 --> 02:56.139\n對,我們就是寡產的牛,不是就是他產乳的量比較低的這些牛,寡產的牛我們會有一個就是淘汰的一個機制,對有一個淘汰的機制,那淘汰部分我們會做一些補助,那同樣的就是那補助是多少?我們現在原來規劃大概是兩萬五左右,但是我們整個的經費現在在抱怨在審核當中,最後的經費我相信我們一定會為弱農爭取最大的一個量,會不會跳票?\n\n02:58.454 --> 03:25.482\n他已經在申請了嘛。會不會跳票啊?院長會不會跳票?當然,我們說話算話。不會跳票嘛。那我是不是再請衛福部長,因為其實我們在上一次的時候也提到了,就是說如果未來紐西蘭的這個牛乳進入了台灣的能源系統,你們兩個說法是不一的。我不知道你們現在檢驗的標準已經合而為一了沒有?不要在台灣裡面搞兩次嘛,一國兩制嘛。\n\n03:26.122 --> 03:44.657\n我想基本上我們第一個最重要的目標就是要讓我們的消費者認同我們台灣的牛奶所以我們針對標章的部分台灣乳的標章的部分我們已經重新設計了而且也經過酪農跟消費者本身的一個評選那是就台灣先入的部分對台灣的部分對\n\n03:45.578 --> 04:02.755\n但是如果進入冷鏈系統呢,未來紐西蘭的牛乳如果進入臺灣的冷鏈系統裡面,當初我們衛福部薛部長也是薛部長嘛,你說以目前你們的檢驗方法是沒有辦法區分紐西蘭的牛乳跟臺灣的鮮乳。\n\n04:03.956 --> 04:06.659\n那如果他們是mixed,就是說在冷電系統裡面已經mixed,\n\n04:19.676 --> 04:41.074\n那你們有辦法檢驗出來嗎?我們可以查得出來所以我們現在透過標準的方式但是未來但是你們的續產所可以但是未來到了市場以後甚至到了各縣市以後都是由衛福部以及各縣市的衛生所去做集合的工作對不對?\n\n04:43.096 --> 05:07.214\n對。不過這要標示啦。從進來開始。我知道可是未來到時候也會有集合的動作啊。那集合的動作是踩衛福部的標準還是踩農業部的標準?我想整個的標章制度是由衛福部這邊規範的。那進口跟國產的區分只要它是混的然後沒有標示的時候那就是違法。\n\n05:08.260 --> 05:29.708\n那第二個部分我要跟委員說明的就是違法違法是一件事情我當然知道只要混的就是違法但是如果混的你沒有辦法查的時候那你怎麼知道他違法我跟委員說明齁後市場的查那個是需要比較耗費大的人力跟物力所以我們現在設計是說我們在源頭的時候爐廠的時候我們台灣爐標章的時候\n\n05:37.735 --> 05:55.031\n委員你現在講的就是說我們如果有這個牛乳的履歷然後有牛乳的標章然後看是台灣牛還是有西南牛你現在擔心的就是說有一些人少數的人他會去混用但是混用抓到當然就處罰\n\n05:56.332 --> 06:03.094\n問題是怎麼抓?問題是到時候是採怎麼樣的檢驗方式嗎?那農業部應該既然農業部現在認為他們已經有辦法查核這樣子就是把就是未來外國的牛乳混沖成臺灣的鮮奶的時候那這樣子查核的機制總要給大家知道嘛\n\n06:25.021 --> 06:28.743\n我們的技術一定要經過衛福部這邊經過一個程序認可以後就變成一個公告的法定的方法\n\n06:50.416 --> 06:51.276\n我知道啊,我就是在問你說\n\n07:19.284 --> 07:40.394\n你們這個部分要統合清楚嘛,是不是?到時候檢查的才不會標準不一嘛。他們去年說法是不一的嘛。去年是因為還沒有這個方法嘛,那現在已經統一了嘛。所以委員你不用擔心,我們一定不會各步走各的路,一定是整合在一起。\n\n07:41.480 --> 07:58.574\n還有我們還提到了就是畜牧業的廢棄物那不只是一般的廢棄物甚至是他們的糞尿的這個廢棄物其實目前民眾對於這些廢棄物的處理方式還是大有疑慮\n\n07:59.415 --> 08:01.256\n我跟委員說明就是整個\n\n08:23.731 --> 08:46.492\n續產的部分的這些廢棄物我們現在把它把它稱為農業剩餘資材因為它還可以再利用的部分然後這個再利用的部分我舉個例子就是養豬場本身的那些過去一直被詬病的那個情緒那樣的污水我們現在用高床的處理高床的處理的話就減少的用水那相對的它整個污水量就會變少然後把這些\n\n08:47.293 --> 09:09.554\n對我知道那你們到底處理了多少我們彰化縣你們處理了多少你們補助了多少續設你們做了多少這樣子高床的設施減少就是這樣子就是他們這些資材的我想彰化的部分我可能要查但是以整體來講就是整個畜牧場裡面有大概有4\n\n09:10.935 --> 09:27.572\n應該就2000多場在申請在改建了那totally大概有5000多場所以已經將近有三成的全國來講將近有三成的這些養豬場已經在做這樣的一個改善的部分張嬅有多少張嬅我想廢後我們廢後再提供給你廢後我再提供給你數字給你阿\n\n09:33.699 --> 09:54.979\n對啊,執行完我們再給委員拜訪。對啊,那環境部呢?環境部你們到底在協助這部分,你們還是用潮運車,那有沒有更先進的方式呢?因為潮運車去運送這個過程當中還是會產生就是不必要的衛道啊或者是髒亂也好,那怎麼樣子減少這部分?\n\n09:56.183 --> 10:19.713\n給謝委員報告這一塊我們是希望說能夠在地把它做一個循環的應用而不需要再用潮運車運到其他地方去處理所以這一塊我們會跟農業部那如果你們現在已經未來你們預估的方式是採用在地利用我甚至不知道你們在地利用這個方式到520之後會不會改變\n\n10:21.296 --> 10:43.388\n這個政策應該是不會改變,因為資源的循環事實上是未來的一個趨勢。我想這個農業沒有廢棄物啦,農業資源這些剩餘資產的這個再利用我們是一定是一貫的,而且不管是在現在或者520以後當然是因為還是仍然同一個\n\n10:45.526 --> 10:49.858\n政黨在執政嗎?怎麼可能會改變?我給你看下一張,你看這個\n\n10:52.280 --> 11:18.277\n這個是2024年1月22號我們嘉義縣的翁縣長他說的他說在嘉義台塘有非常多的地可以歡迎台積電來利用那我想請問為什麼我們在選前的時候也積極在爭取我們彰化縣也有非常多台塘的土地那甚至在這個我們20也希望設置20精密機械園區\n\n11:19.878 --> 11:37.950\n像設置二齡精密機械園區這樣子的難道是臺堂的農地發展成工業區的條件是不是跨縣市有不同選前選後有不同到時候換政府就是換政府執政的時候會不會有不同\n\n11:38.564 --> 12:01.184\n委員你講話不必要這樣講我想讓我們部長來說明我先跟委員說明就是惡靈機械的精密園區本身事實上在97年就開始有一些相關的一個環評的一個審查那現在最大的一個問題就是在這個園區裡面它有所謂的兩種鳥類就是那個黑\n\n12:02.125 --> 12:23.754\n黑尾菸還有一個雁橫這兩個保育類的鳥類必須要做適當的一個解決方案讓這個棲地能夠得以維持那目前為止到了大概去年12月的時候彰化縣政府提供的這些解決方案並沒有做任何跟他之前所提出來的說法有改變\n\n12:24.474 --> 12:45.961\n換句話說在這個兩個保育類還沒有還沒有把它找到解決方案之前那個環評的二階的環評他大會是沒辦法召開的所以現在是目前的卡關是在整個保育類的部分那我們農業部會跟彰化縣政府我們也提過了我們會跟我們的生物多樣性研究所一起來努力把這個那個解決方案把它找出來\n\n12:47.666 --> 13:14.320\n過去我們在發展其實這已經很久了在王惠美縣長之前甚至在那個衛明谷縣長的時候都已經提出這個惡靈精密機械元素那時候都沒有提出有這個保育鳥類的問題可是為什麼突然之間就產生這個問題甚至我們就是發現說沒有那環評大會在之前好像都沒有提出相關的問題\n\n13:15.460 --> 13:30.554\n但是我想要請教的就是為什麼在嘉義是台積電可以使用台塘的農地而我們20的精密機械園區沒有辦法使用台塘的農地那是不是跨縣市有不同?\n\n13:31.915 --> 13:51.484\n當然不是。以農業部來講,我們是針對土地本身的一個可利用性,跟它土壤的質地。我們不會去管說地上物是台湯的土地或是私人的土地或是國有地的部分。這第一個要說明。第二個要說明的就是我們在針對\n\n13:53.366 --> 14:14.748\n我們一定會跟產業就是我們的經濟發展做一些相關的配合但是在配合的過程中我們會針對裡面如果說有有機的栽培區我們就會去提醒如果你要做一個園區就一定要想辦法把有機栽培園區做妥適的處理那如果裡面它有保育有棲地的必要性的時候那我們也會做提醒\n\n14:15.248 --> 14:38.418\n那如果說提醒過了以後他有做適度的一個解決方案的時候那通常就不會有問題以惡靈精密園區來講我們在100年的時候就已經同意他做農地變更了對我就說他本來在之前他就已經同意要變成就是精密工業園區但是那個王美花部長已經在後面等了給他講一下好了\n\n14:40.054 --> 15:05.978\n是不是就產業別有差別到底我們臺灣的精密機械產業有沒有前景還是以目前來看我們的電力上漲可能未來也有碳費的問題等等的再加上我們跟周邊國家的關稅貿易協定以及雙方的關稅貿易協定都沒有簽訂再加上地緣政治的問題讓臺灣的傳產\n\n15:09.059 --> 15:30.914\n都發生了非常重大的結構性的問題是不是我們經濟部就乾脆讓這些隱形冠軍讓這些傳產讓他們自然淘汰沒有辦法有生活的不會不會絕對不會我們其實非常重視委員提到這些產業那我們也希望他能夠升級轉型那委員提到這個惡靈精密園區因為他兩個步驟一個是都市\n\n15:59.642 --> 16:04.088\n所以整個步驟目前是還在進行當中。另外一個問題常常在環評也被問到一個問題目前的這個\n\n16:12.642 --> 16:28.707\n科學園區的進駐率有沒有提升那這個也會就是說提升了以後就表示這個用地的需求一直在增加那這樣也會對我們開發20精密園區的需要性也會比較有幫助那所以這幾個問題的部分\n\n16:30.607 --> 16:50.580\n那經濟部也會來跟相關的部會合作還是你們就是默默的就把他移到嘉義啊?就是你在我這台上不見嘉義有嘉義的嘉義的台湯的農地都比較不會產生保育類的那個動物啊委員你這樣說的話不是事實啊就是移到不會有抗爭啊\n\n16:51.721 --> 16:52.361\n你如果再跟我講這個那我再跟你提到了\n\n17:20.106 --> 17:37.442\n那但是同樣的我發現了很多的光電業者他們要在我們的濕地就是方圓鄉啊大城鄉等等的濕地建立光電的就是要設置太陽光板那\n\n17:37.902 --> 18:02.668\n我問你現在目前如果像這樣子的精密機械園區做的是比較有大規模的經濟我也想要請問那在那樣子的情況下為什麼有時候光電業者可以跟國產署對於相關的農地來申請變更成就是特殊事業用地嘛做光電的生產\n\n18:03.328 --> 18:24.750\n那為什麼有時候在這樣子比較重大有工業就是有一些經濟前景的情況下這種大規模的有那個聚酪效應的產業沒有辦法使用這些農地而這些零碎性的可以使用農地那這對於環境的影響\n\n18:26.772 --> 18:41.147\n我跟委員說明齁,現在目前以農地提供作為光電用使用的部分大概分為三大類。第一大類就是漁電工程區。那這個漁電工程區大概20905公頃。那第二個部分是不利耕作區是2162公頃。\n\n18:44.170 --> 19:09.523\n那第三個部分是,大概是用農地變更的方式。這些地的圈出來之前,它都一定經過生態檢核跟環社的一個檢核。檢核完了,確定了它不,這裡面的區位是沒有跟所謂的棲地,我們必須要保護的棲地有關,我們才會把它框出來。所以它有一定的,對。縣長,我跟妳說好不好。他們跟我講說,\n\n19:11.424 --> 19:29.674\n現在多少面積的光電需要申請環評?光電目前不是,是用環射檢測的部分,因為它對環境的影響相對跟設工廠本來就不太一樣。多少面積需要申請環射?\n\n19:31.712 --> 19:47.509\n其實是區域的問題,那我們就跟農業部合作來做相關的...因為我聽到的現況,我們都在政府部門工作嘛,那我們必須要了解實地的狀況嘛。\n\n19:49.031 --> 20:03.486\n現況是他們就化整為零啊。他們就把那個就是同樣一個區塊,他們可以申請設立公司多一點,然後分塊來就是申請。那減少需要面臨這種環評或環社的條件啊。\n\n20:05.728 --> 20:23.563\n反射檢測不會因為你的面積變小了就不做反射檢測就在我剛才說的就在我們所框定的漁電工程區兩萬多公頃我們已經初步做反射的一個檢核比較低敏感的但是你在申請的時候同樣會再確認一次\n\n20:24.284 --> 20:53.564\n不管你是一公頃或是十公頃都還是要經過環社的檢核過這個是在整個的申請過程中一個必要的一個條件以農業部來講我們一定會去保護我們的農地所以到目前為止20905公頃裡面的餘電公升值用了大概2200多公頃不到十分之一不利工作區也用不到三分之一就是因為我們持續在跟經濟部一起努力有做一個非常嚴謹的審查不會對我們生態造成一些影響\n\n20:54.804 --> 21:11.349\n但是在過去的時候在之前的時候其實就已經你們都把就是說國產署的土地或者是各部會的土地都已經希望設定成就是大家共同來推光電了是不是?\n\n21:12.659 --> 21:16.203\n我知道說我具體我們一定是先盤出說這個合不合適射光墊然後才會去推如果那個區域是不合適我們第一關就會被農委會打槍了不太可能\n\n21:27.899 --> 21:52.456\n我想部會是整合的啦委員你會有你的懷疑那是我是尊重但是我要跟委員報告在整個關店的發展上實際上我們部會之間都有很密切的協調我們是希望能夠在環境保育做得很好而且呢能夠發展關店的情況下一起來推動所以你會覺得哎呀怎麼會審查這麼多這麼多\n\n21:55.098 --> 22:22.679\n問題就是說希望台灣能夠有產業的發展又有環境的保護通通能夠兼顧嘛所以你這樣講片面的實際上不是我們的情況我們部會是合作的我也是把就是說目前民眾他們的想法跟你分享嘛民眾的想法有些可能不正確啦我們必須要在這裡就是要對於國家未來的政策總是要在這裡達到溝通達到全民共識的方向啦對不對\n\n22:23.459 --> 22:23.841\n這是台電的上一張。\n\n22:33.380 --> 22:55.032\n我們看到這是臺電它的發電成本那其實我們自發的電力在再生能源我們自發的電力是1.72塊在2022年的時候2023年的時候是2.53那其實我們都比購入的電力都非常的都是低很多那所以民眾就會希望說是不是\n\n22:56.213 --> 23:22.048\n尤其是非常多中小企業廠商他們沒有辦法花那麼多錢那再加上有可能3月份的電價審議委員會未來對於電價的發電也會做適當的調整那這可能都會漲到民生電價以及所有的產業的用電那這個部分我們有沒有辦法調整再生能源的這個電價呢\n\n23:24.509 --> 23:49.974\n在聖誕園部分事實上現在對新的這個離岸風電其實都已經是讓民間來買電了不用短購費率那所以臺電對離岸風電沒有再用這個短購費率來收購那太陽光電的部分事實上從今年開始那越來越多的企業會把甚至現在的短購費率會變成是他們自己去買電\n\n23:50.974 --> 24:06.204\n所以這個太陽光電來賺購匯率給台電的部分的占比呢也會逐漸的來降低啦那因為發展再生能源對整個國家是很必須的所以我們還是要支持這個再生能源的發展\n\n24:07.399 --> 24:31.786\n對可是我們即便是很必須我也我也認為啦因為未來整個就是說世界的趨勢但是在目前我們我們目前看到其實我有找了一張就是你們去年跟前年的電力供應供需的概況發現了其實我們今年度的就是工業用電就是減少非常大嗎\n\n24:32.586 --> 24:59.033\n然後我們的工業用電工業部門的用電它的需求是暫比是56.1%嘛它就降低了2.8%所以在其實這是因為全球景氣的關係以及我們是仰賴出口的關係那導致於我們目前沒有缺電的問題有可能是因為景氣不好那工廠的生產沒有這麼大的需求的情況下所導致我們電力需求沒有這麼高的情況下\n\n24:59.713 --> 25:21.669\n那是不是在這個時間點我們對於光電的這個發展要進行一些調整啊?我們再回來看喔就是看我們的電力結構裡面喔其實我們發現再生能源即便是我不要講你們是錯誤的能源錯誤能源等一下你陳院長就跳腳啦但是我們總要節省\n\n25:24.591 --> 25:52.110\n我們總要檢討一下嗎?因為即便是目前我們希望我們的再生能源占比增加但是以目前你們的速度要達到你們2025年想要的20%的那個目標是遠遠不可能除非技術進步那現在目前我們有什麼樣子技術進步的能量嗎?\n\n25:53.482 --> 26:09.250\n是不是能夠讓我們2025可以而且我再說一下尤其是太陽能光店我有看過臺電的就是太陽能光店的發展跟一般就是民間的太陽能光店的發展\n\n26:09.890 --> 26:38.735\n其實為什麼民眾對於光電業的發展認為需要做部分的檢討那就是在法令限制的模糊的空間裡面第一個我們有沒有辦法提高太陽能光電的效率嗎即便我們要再生能源我們也希望說技術進步可以促進光電發電的效率嗎在既有的就是設施上面我們有沒有辦法提高光電的發電效率以及\n\n26:39.275 --> 26:43.739\n所以在法令上面有沒有可能在520之前你們做一個檢討在法規上面做改變\n\n26:58.314 --> 27:20.563\n委員我聽不太懂這個退縮的機制是什麼?我是說就是不是他在一塊地裡面例如他比較接近民宅或者是接近因為有時候接近民宅他是可以設置光電的那這個部分你要不要做退縮的機制?有有這個然後這個這要修改法令對不對?\n\n27:21.923 --> 27:36.588\n其實是我們的規範,不需要到法律的部分。然後這個部分是不是必須要做一個,然後發電的太陽能板也有非常多種。那未來比較高發電效率的太陽能板是什麼?\n\n27:37.168 --> 28:04.774\n那未來是不是大家應該要採取高就是說高效率的發展的就是高效率發電量的太陽能板這都是需要做一個進一步的檢討不然以目前臺灣剩餘的土地有沒有辦法就是說全面性的發展然後你全面性的發展以外對於民眾而言他們會不會覺得受到困擾因為太陽能板在旁邊很熱嘛很亮嘛\n\n28:05.394 --> 28:19.339\n這都是一種嫌惡的設施嘛那民眾會這也會影響到民眾居住的品質你不要笑啊太陽能板是邪惡的設施這樣的講法嫌惡啦嫌惡嫌惡\n\n28:21.038 --> 28:47.435\n你被人家嫌、被人家討厭嘛。你的意思是這樣嗎?太陽能板被人家嫌惡的措施這樣的講法我想跟一般的理解是不太一樣可是我完全尊重委員講法確實太陽能發電的技術一直在進步我同意你的想法就是說如果有更好的技術我們當然要採用啊這個我完全同意然後呢不要讓民眾覺得嫌惡\n\n28:51.901 --> 29:04.700\n所以兩個部分一個就是如果這個太陽能面板離居住的地方很近了目前我們有規範它四周一定要退縮然後用綠帶來隔離那不要造成這個附近\n\n29:39.136 --> 30:07.975\n那如果今年的產業的景氣就你們預估還是有可能是往上然後需求增加那用電量增加的情況下那你們緊急用電會不會用到核電這個我們都有準備所以就是說第一個我們當然要發展再生能源第二個我們都會在前一年就會針對比如說今年的話我們前一年就在盤點今年可能的用電的情形那你們自己要不要修核子能反應設施管制法\n\n30:08.676 --> 30:11.007\n就是我們的核電廠研議的條例。\n\n31:01.528 --> 31:08.365\n謝謝謝委員依奉的質詢。謝謝陳院長的答詢。接下來我們請林委員國臣\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.649,"end":3.73,"text":"陳建仁院長請陳院長備詢。雖然無案,恭喜你當選連任。謝謝。即使是連任,我們還是要從選前。我們選前的院會其實我有質詢,就是關於2025年的台紐經濟合作協定會導致紐西蘭的紐魯林關稅的進口"},{"start":27.777,"end":46.182,"text":"那這是2030年7月時候所有臺灣諾農他們的連署書喔。他們希望政府可以協助他們,把他們找到產業未來發展的方向。那我想請問,去年我們也是同樣就是我們三位嘛。"},{"start":47.082,"end":65.275,"text":"我想請問當初我們的目標是希望臺灣的牛乳自主力還是可以達到7成那以目前為止你們的目標有沒有改變選前選後我想這件事情我們部長有積極的在跟駱龍有做相關的討論我請他做一個回答"},{"start":65.857,"end":89.107,"text":"我跟那個委員說明就是針對那個臺灣的一個牛乳陰陰那個台牛的一個自由靈觀罪進口的部分我們大概已經從去年的9月到現在大概已經開了大概6次的會議跟洛農本身的一個協調那我們也擬定了整個一個洛農的一個精進的一個計畫抱怨了那主要的內容大概分為幾個部分"},{"start":90.387,"end":108.775,"text":"第一個部分就是委員所關心的就是我們未來台灣的牛奶本身的自給率的部分那現在目前國內的牛乳的部分大概是46萬噸但是在短期之內因為我們現在把一些比較寡產的這個乳牛做一些淘汰"},{"start":109.335,"end":113.78,"text":"因為我們現在的牛奶量是不是很多因為從我們夏季的牛乳開始就發生了供過於求的這樣子的問題"},{"start":131.118,"end":146.623,"text":"是不是?那這個問題目前怎麼解決?所以你們當初在選前有承諾糯農協會承諾那些糯農的朋友你們要補助每一頭牛就是淘汰乳牛2.5萬是不是?"},{"start":148.564,"end":176.139,"text":"對,我們就是寡產的牛,不是就是他產乳的量比較低的這些牛,寡產的牛我們會有一個就是淘汰的一個機制,對有一個淘汰的機制,那淘汰部分我們會做一些補助,那同樣的就是 那補助是多少?我們現在原來規劃大概是兩萬五左右,但是我們整個的經費現在在抱怨在審核當中,最後的經費我相信我們一定會為弱農爭取最大的一個量,會不會跳票?"},{"start":178.454,"end":205.482,"text":"他已經在申請了嘛。會不會跳票啊?院長會不會跳票?當然,我們說話算話。不會跳票嘛。那我是不是再請衛福部長,因為其實我們在上一次的時候也提到了,就是說如果未來紐西蘭的這個牛乳進入了台灣的能源系統,你們兩個說法是不一的。我不知道你們現在檢驗的標準已經合而為一了沒有?不要在台灣裡面搞兩次嘛,一國兩制嘛。"},{"start":206.122,"end":224.657,"text":"我想基本上我們第一個最重要的目標就是要讓我們的消費者認同我們台灣的牛奶所以我們針對標章的部分台灣乳的標章的部分我們已經重新設計了而且也經過酪農跟消費者本身的一個評選那是就台灣先入的部分對台灣的部分對"},{"start":225.578,"end":242.755,"text":"但是如果進入冷鏈系統呢,未來紐西蘭的牛乳如果進入臺灣的冷鏈系統裡面,當初我們衛福部薛部長也是薛部長嘛,你說以目前你們的檢驗方法是沒有辦法區分紐西蘭的牛乳跟臺灣的鮮乳。"},{"start":243.956,"end":246.659,"text":"那如果他們是mixed,就是說在冷電系統裡面已經mixed,"},{"start":259.676,"end":281.074,"text":"那你們有辦法檢驗出來嗎?我們可以查得出來所以我們現在透過標準的方式但是未來但是你們的續產所可以但是未來到了市場以後甚至到了各縣市以後都是由衛福部以及各縣市的衛生所去做集合的工作對不對?"},{"start":283.096,"end":307.214,"text":"對。不過這要標示啦。從進來開始。我知道可是未來到時候也會有集合的動作啊。那集合的動作是踩衛福部的標準還是踩農業部的標準?我想整個的標章制度是由衛福部這邊規範的。那進口跟國產的區分只要它是混的然後沒有標示的時候那就是違法。"},{"start":308.26,"end":329.708,"text":"那第二個部分我要跟委員說明的就是違法違法是一件事情我當然知道只要混的就是違法但是如果混的你沒有辦法查的時候那你怎麼知道他違法我跟委員說明齁後市場的查那個是需要比較耗費大的人力跟物力所以我們現在設計是說我們在源頭的時候爐廠的時候我們台灣爐標章的時候"},{"start":337.735,"end":355.031,"text":"委員你現在講的就是說我們如果有這個牛乳的履歷然後有牛乳的標章然後看是台灣牛還是有西南牛你現在擔心的就是說有一些人少數的人他會去混用但是混用抓到當然就處罰"},{"start":356.332,"end":363.094,"text":"問題是怎麼抓?問題是到時候是採怎麼樣的檢驗方式嗎?那農業部應該既然農業部現在認為他們已經有辦法查核這樣子就是把就是未來外國的牛乳混沖成臺灣的鮮奶的時候那這樣子查核的機制總要給大家知道嘛"},{"start":385.021,"end":388.743,"text":"我們的技術一定要經過衛福部這邊經過一個程序認可以後就變成一個公告的法定的方法"},{"start":410.416,"end":411.276,"text":"我知道啊,我就是在問你說"},{"start":439.284,"end":460.394,"text":"你們這個部分要統合清楚嘛,是不是?到時候檢查的才不會標準不一嘛。他們去年說法是不一的嘛。去年是因為還沒有這個方法嘛,那現在已經統一了嘛。所以委員你不用擔心,我們一定不會各步走各的路,一定是整合在一起。"},{"start":461.48,"end":478.574,"text":"還有我們還提到了就是畜牧業的廢棄物那不只是一般的廢棄物甚至是他們的糞尿的這個廢棄物其實目前民眾對於這些廢棄物的處理方式還是大有疑慮"},{"start":479.415,"end":481.256,"text":"我跟委員說明就是整個"},{"start":503.731,"end":526.492,"text":"續產的部分的這些廢棄物我們現在把它把它稱為農業剩餘資材因為它還可以再利用的部分然後這個再利用的部分我舉個例子就是養豬場本身的那些過去一直被詬病的那個情緒那樣的污水我們現在用高床的處理高床的處理的話就減少的用水那相對的它整個污水量就會變少然後把這些"},{"start":527.293,"end":549.554,"text":"對我知道那你們到底處理了多少我們彰化縣你們處理了多少你們補助了多少續設你們做了多少這樣子高床的設施減少就是這樣子就是他們這些資材的我想彰化的部分我可能要查但是以整體來講就是整個畜牧場裡面有大概有4"},{"start":550.935,"end":567.572,"text":"應該就2000多場在申請在改建了那totally大概有5000多場所以已經將近有三成的全國來講將近有三成的這些養豬場已經在做這樣的一個改善的部分張嬅有多少張嬅我想廢後我們廢後再提供給你廢後我再提供給你數字給你阿"},{"start":573.699,"end":594.979,"text":"對啊,執行完我們再給委員拜訪。對啊,那環境部呢?環境部你們到底在協助這部分,你們還是用潮運車,那有沒有更先進的方式呢?因為潮運車去運送這個過程當中還是會產生就是不必要的衛道啊或者是髒亂也好,那怎麼樣子減少這部分?"},{"start":596.183,"end":619.713,"text":"給謝委員報告這一塊我們是希望說能夠在地把它做一個循環的應用而不需要再用潮運車運到其他地方去處理所以這一塊我們會跟農業部那如果你們現在已經未來你們預估的方式是採用在地利用我甚至不知道你們在地利用這個方式到520之後會不會改變"},{"start":621.296,"end":643.388,"text":"這個政策應該是不會改變,因為資源的循環事實上是未來的一個趨勢。我想這個農業沒有廢棄物啦,農業資源這些剩餘資產的這個再利用我們是一定是一貫的,而且不管是在現在或者520以後當然是因為還是仍然同一個"},{"start":645.526,"end":649.858,"text":"政黨在執政嗎?怎麼可能會改變?我給你看下一張,你看這個"},{"start":652.28,"end":678.277,"text":"這個是2024年1月22號我們嘉義縣的翁縣長他說的他說在嘉義台塘有非常多的地可以歡迎台積電來利用那我想請問為什麼我們在選前的時候也積極在爭取我們彰化縣也有非常多台塘的土地那甚至在這個我們20也希望設置20精密機械園區"},{"start":679.878,"end":697.95,"text":"像設置二齡精密機械園區這樣子的難道是臺堂的農地發展成工業區的條件是不是跨縣市有不同選前選後有不同到時候換政府就是換政府執政的時候會不會有不同"},{"start":698.564,"end":721.184,"text":"委員你講話不必要這樣講我想讓我們部長來說明我先跟委員說明就是惡靈機械的精密園區本身事實上在97年就開始有一些相關的一個環評的一個審查那現在最大的一個問題就是在這個園區裡面它有所謂的兩種鳥類就是那個黑"},{"start":722.125,"end":743.754,"text":"黑尾菸還有一個雁橫這兩個保育類的鳥類必須要做適當的一個解決方案讓這個棲地能夠得以維持那目前為止到了大概去年12月的時候彰化縣政府提供的這些解決方案並沒有做任何跟他之前所提出來的說法有改變"},{"start":744.474,"end":765.961,"text":"換句話說在這個兩個保育類還沒有還沒有把它找到解決方案之前那個環評的二階的環評他大會是沒辦法召開的所以現在是目前的卡關是在整個保育類的部分那我們農業部會跟彰化縣政府我們也提過了我們會跟我們的生物多樣性研究所一起來努力把這個那個解決方案把它找出來"},{"start":767.666,"end":794.32,"text":"過去我們在發展其實這已經很久了在王惠美縣長之前甚至在那個衛明谷縣長的時候都已經提出這個惡靈精密機械元素那時候都沒有提出有這個保育鳥類的問題可是為什麼突然之間就產生這個問題甚至我們就是發現說沒有那環評大會在之前好像都沒有提出相關的問題"},{"start":795.46,"end":810.554,"text":"但是我想要請教的就是為什麼在嘉義是台積電可以使用台塘的農地而我們20的精密機械園區沒有辦法使用台塘的農地那是不是跨縣市有不同?"},{"start":811.915,"end":831.484,"text":"當然不是。以農業部來講,我們是針對土地本身的一個可利用性,跟它土壤的質地。我們不會去管說地上物是台湯的土地或是私人的土地或是國有地的部分。這第一個要說明。第二個要說明的就是我們在針對"},{"start":833.366,"end":854.748,"text":"我們一定會跟產業就是我們的經濟發展做一些相關的配合但是在配合的過程中我們會針對裡面如果說有有機的栽培區我們就會去提醒如果你要做一個園區就一定要想辦法把有機栽培園區做妥適的處理那如果裡面它有保育有棲地的必要性的時候那我們也會做提醒"},{"start":855.248,"end":878.418,"text":"那如果說提醒過了以後他有做適度的一個解決方案的時候那通常就不會有問題以惡靈精密園區來講我們在100年的時候就已經同意他做農地變更了對我就說他本來在之前他就已經同意要變成就是精密工業園區但是那個王美花部長已經在後面等了給他講一下好了"},{"start":880.054,"end":905.978,"text":"是不是就產業別有差別到底我們臺灣的精密機械產業有沒有前景還是以目前來看我們的電力上漲可能未來也有碳費的問題等等的再加上我們跟周邊國家的關稅貿易協定以及雙方的關稅貿易協定都沒有簽訂再加上地緣政治的問題讓臺灣的傳產"},{"start":909.059,"end":930.914,"text":"都發生了非常重大的結構性的問題是不是我們經濟部就乾脆讓這些隱形冠軍讓這些傳產讓他們自然淘汰沒有辦法有生活的不會不會絕對不會我們其實非常重視委員提到這些產業那我們也希望他能夠升級轉型那委員提到這個惡靈精密園區因為他兩個步驟一個是都市"},{"start":936.118,"end":959.241,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":959.642,"end":964.088,"text":"所以整個步驟目前是還在進行當中。另外一個問題常常在環評也被問到一個問題目前的這個"},{"start":972.642,"end":988.707,"text":"科學園區的進駐率有沒有提升那這個也會就是說提升了以後就表示這個用地的需求一直在增加那這樣也會對我們開發20精密園區的需要性也會比較有幫助那所以這幾個問題的部分"},{"start":990.607,"end":1010.58,"text":"那經濟部也會來跟相關的部會合作還是你們就是默默的就把他移到嘉義啊?就是你在我這台上不見嘉義有嘉義的嘉義的台湯的農地都比較不會產生保育類的那個動物啊委員你這樣說的話不是事實啊就是移到不會有抗爭啊"},{"start":1011.721,"end":1012.361,"text":"你如果再跟我講這個那我再跟你提到了"},{"start":1040.106,"end":1057.442,"text":"那但是同樣的我發現了很多的光電業者他們要在我們的濕地就是方圓鄉啊大城鄉等等的濕地建立光電的就是要設置太陽光板那"},{"start":1057.902,"end":1082.668,"text":"我問你現在目前如果像這樣子的精密機械園區做的是比較有大規模的經濟我也想要請問那在那樣子的情況下為什麼有時候光電業者可以跟國產署對於相關的農地來申請變更成就是特殊事業用地嘛做光電的生產"},{"start":1083.328,"end":1104.75,"text":"那為什麼有時候在這樣子比較重大有工業就是有一些經濟前景的情況下這種大規模的有那個聚酪效應的產業沒有辦法使用這些農地而這些零碎性的可以使用農地那這對於環境的影響"},{"start":1106.772,"end":1121.147,"text":"我跟委員說明齁,現在目前以農地提供作為光電用使用的部分大概分為三大類。第一大類就是漁電工程區。那這個漁電工程區大概20905公頃。那第二個部分是不利耕作區是2162公頃。"},{"start":1124.17,"end":1149.523,"text":"那第三個部分是,大概是用農地變更的方式。這些地的圈出來之前,它都一定經過生態檢核跟環社的一個檢核。檢核完了,確定了它不,這裡面的區位是沒有跟所謂的棲地,我們必須要保護的棲地有關,我們才會把它框出來。所以它有一定的,對。縣長,我跟妳說好不好。他們跟我講說,"},{"start":1151.424,"end":1169.674,"text":"現在多少面積的光電需要申請環評?光電目前不是,是用環射檢測的部分,因為它對環境的影響相對跟設工廠本來就不太一樣。多少面積需要申請環射?"},{"start":1171.712,"end":1187.509,"text":"其實是區域的問題,那我們就跟農業部合作來做相關的...因為我聽到的現況,我們都在政府部門工作嘛,那我們必須要了解實地的狀況嘛。"},{"start":1189.031,"end":1203.486,"text":"現況是他們就化整為零啊。他們就把那個就是同樣一個區塊,他們可以申請設立公司多一點,然後分塊來就是申請。那減少需要面臨這種環評或環社的條件啊。"},{"start":1205.728,"end":1223.563,"text":"反射檢測不會因為你的面積變小了就不做反射檢測就在我剛才說的就在我們所框定的漁電工程區兩萬多公頃我們已經初步做反射的一個檢核比較低敏感的但是你在申請的時候同樣會再確認一次"},{"start":1224.284,"end":1253.564,"text":"不管你是一公頃或是十公頃都還是要經過環社的檢核過這個是在整個的申請過程中一個必要的一個條件以農業部來講我們一定會去保護我們的農地所以到目前為止20905公頃裡面的餘電公升值用了大概2200多公頃不到十分之一不利工作區也用不到三分之一就是因為我們持續在跟經濟部一起努力有做一個非常嚴謹的審查不會對我們生態造成一些影響"},{"start":1254.804,"end":1271.349,"text":"但是在過去的時候在之前的時候其實就已經你們都把就是說國產署的土地或者是各部會的土地都已經希望設定成就是大家共同來推光電了是不是?"},{"start":1272.659,"end":1276.203,"text":"我知道說我具體我們一定是先盤出說這個合不合適射光墊然後才會去推如果那個區域是不合適我們第一關就會被農委會打槍了不太可能"},{"start":1287.899,"end":1312.456,"text":"我想部會是整合的啦委員你會有你的懷疑那是我是尊重但是我要跟委員報告在整個關店的發展上實際上我們部會之間都有很密切的協調我們是希望能夠在環境保育做得很好而且呢能夠發展關店的情況下一起來推動所以你會覺得哎呀怎麼會審查這麼多這麼多"},{"start":1315.098,"end":1342.679,"text":"問題就是說希望台灣能夠有產業的發展又有環境的保護通通能夠兼顧嘛所以你這樣講片面的實際上不是我們的情況我們部會是合作的我也是把就是說目前民眾他們的想法跟你分享嘛民眾的想法有些可能不正確啦我們必須要在這裡就是要對於國家未來的政策總是要在這裡達到溝通達到全民共識的方向啦對不對"},{"start":1343.459,"end":1343.841,"text":"這是台電的上一張。"},{"start":1353.38,"end":1375.032,"text":"我們看到這是臺電它的發電成本那其實我們自發的電力在再生能源我們自發的電力是1.72塊在2022年的時候2023年的時候是2.53那其實我們都比購入的電力都非常的都是低很多那所以民眾就會希望說是不是"},{"start":1376.213,"end":1402.048,"text":"尤其是非常多中小企業廠商他們沒有辦法花那麼多錢那再加上有可能3月份的電價審議委員會未來對於電價的發電也會做適當的調整那這可能都會漲到民生電價以及所有的產業的用電那這個部分我們有沒有辦法調整再生能源的這個電價呢"},{"start":1404.509,"end":1429.974,"text":"在聖誕園部分事實上現在對新的這個離岸風電其實都已經是讓民間來買電了不用短購費率那所以臺電對離岸風電沒有再用這個短購費率來收購那太陽光電的部分事實上從今年開始那越來越多的企業會把甚至現在的短購費率會變成是他們自己去買電"},{"start":1430.974,"end":1446.204,"text":"所以這個太陽光電來賺購匯率給台電的部分的占比呢也會逐漸的來降低啦那因為發展再生能源對整個國家是很必須的所以我們還是要支持這個再生能源的發展"},{"start":1447.399,"end":1471.786,"text":"對可是我們即便是很必須我也我也認為啦因為未來整個就是說世界的趨勢但是在目前我們我們目前看到其實我有找了一張就是你們去年跟前年的電力供應供需的概況發現了其實我們今年度的就是工業用電就是減少非常大嗎"},{"start":1472.586,"end":1499.033,"text":"然後我們的工業用電工業部門的用電它的需求是暫比是56.1%嘛它就降低了2.8%所以在其實這是因為全球景氣的關係以及我們是仰賴出口的關係那導致於我們目前沒有缺電的問題有可能是因為景氣不好那工廠的生產沒有這麼大的需求的情況下所導致我們電力需求沒有這麼高的情況下"},{"start":1499.713,"end":1521.669,"text":"那是不是在這個時間點我們對於光電的這個發展要進行一些調整啊?我們再回來看喔就是看我們的電力結構裡面喔其實我們發現再生能源即便是我不要講你們是錯誤的能源錯誤能源等一下你陳院長就跳腳啦但是我們總要節省"},{"start":1524.591,"end":1552.11,"text":"我們總要檢討一下嗎?因為即便是目前我們希望我們的再生能源占比增加但是以目前你們的速度要達到你們2025年想要的20%的那個目標是遠遠不可能除非技術進步那現在目前我們有什麼樣子技術進步的能量嗎?"},{"start":1553.482,"end":1569.25,"text":"是不是能夠讓我們2025可以而且我再說一下尤其是太陽能光店我有看過臺電的就是太陽能光店的發展跟一般就是民間的太陽能光店的發展"},{"start":1569.89,"end":1598.735,"text":"其實為什麼民眾對於光電業的發展認為需要做部分的檢討那就是在法令限制的模糊的空間裡面第一個我們有沒有辦法提高太陽能光電的效率嗎即便我們要再生能源我們也希望說技術進步可以促進光電發電的效率嗎在既有的就是設施上面我們有沒有辦法提高光電的發電效率以及"},{"start":1599.275,"end":1603.739,"text":"所以在法令上面有沒有可能在520之前你們做一個檢討在法規上面做改變"},{"start":1618.314,"end":1640.563,"text":"委員我聽不太懂這個退縮的機制是什麼?我是說就是不是他在一塊地裡面例如他比較接近民宅或者是接近因為有時候接近民宅他是可以設置光電的那這個部分你要不要做退縮的機制?有有這個然後這個這要修改法令對不對?"},{"start":1641.923,"end":1656.588,"text":"其實是我們的規範,不需要到法律的部分。然後這個部分是不是必須要做一個,然後發電的太陽能板也有非常多種。那未來比較高發電效率的太陽能板是什麼?"},{"start":1657.168,"end":1684.774,"text":"那未來是不是大家應該要採取高就是說高效率的發展的就是高效率發電量的太陽能板這都是需要做一個進一步的檢討不然以目前臺灣剩餘的土地有沒有辦法就是說全面性的發展然後你全面性的發展以外對於民眾而言他們會不會覺得受到困擾因為太陽能板在旁邊很熱嘛很亮嘛"},{"start":1685.394,"end":1699.339,"text":"這都是一種嫌惡的設施嘛那民眾會這也會影響到民眾居住的品質你不要笑啊太陽能板是邪惡的設施這樣的講法嫌惡啦嫌惡嫌惡"},{"start":1701.038,"end":1727.435,"text":"你被人家嫌、被人家討厭嘛。你的意思是這樣嗎?太陽能板被人家嫌惡的措施這樣的講法我想跟一般的理解是不太一樣可是我完全尊重委員講法確實太陽能發電的技術一直在進步我同意你的想法就是說如果有更好的技術我們當然要採用啊這個我完全同意然後呢不要讓民眾覺得嫌惡"},{"start":1731.901,"end":1744.7,"text":"所以兩個部分一個就是如果這個太陽能面板離居住的地方很近了目前我們有規範它四周一定要退縮然後用綠帶來隔離那不要造成這個附近"},{"start":1744.94,"end":1762.381,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":1762.381,"end":1779.036,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":1779.136,"end":1807.975,"text":"那如果今年的產業的景氣就你們預估還是有可能是往上然後需求增加那用電量增加的情況下那你們緊急用電會不會用到核電這個我們都有準備所以就是說第一個我們當然要發展再生能源第二個我們都會在前一年就會針對比如說今年的話我們前一年就在盤點今年可能的用電的情形那你們自己要不要修核子能反應設施管制法"},{"start":1808.676,"end":1811.007,"text":"就是我們的核電廠研議的條例。"},{"start":1861.528,"end":1868.365,"text":"謝謝謝委員依奉的質詢。謝謝陳院長的答詢。接下來我們請林委員國臣"}]}}}}