{"id":149168,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149168","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61498c107f55f962f17bf580cd3804e7dba0a28dd420b397f8ba9b0039caa7a6452ba7b18f0a76fc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"11:19:43 - 11:50:53","影片長度":"00:31:10","會議時間":"2024-03-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第3次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n 二、3月1日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n 三、3月5日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第3次會議","id":"院會-11-1-3","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3},"date":"2024-03-01","duration":1870,"end_time":"2024-03-01T11:50:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-01T11:19:43+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":729,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（11時20分）院長，請陳建仁院長備詢。"],["主席：麻煩請陳院長備詢。","特別跟林委員報告，三個麥克風都可以用。"],["陳院長建仁：林委員早，恭喜你當選立委。"],["林委員沛祥：院長，謝謝。您是行政院院長，嚴格講起來就等於是我們這個國家的CEO，嚴格講起來，本席是代表股東代表。另外一方面，您是官，我是民、我是民代，所以今天不管如何，我希望有個善意的一個質詢跟回應。","為什麼先把北北基這個議題拿出來講，因為我記得沒有錯的話，賴清德總統當選人在選舉的時候，曾經提出來桃竹苗大矽谷1年200億的計畫，我就很想知道，對於我們北北基桃目前的規劃是什麼？畢竟北北基桃加起來，可能剛剛好超過1,000萬人口，也是目前我們全國最大人口區，我們的人口密度也比其他縣市來得高，我就很想請問，針對這個案子，整體大眾運輸計畫的補助款目前是什麼樣的狀況？"],["陳院長建仁：北北基桃我們本來就是把它當作首都生活圈，在這個首都生活圈當中，我們所有交通的規劃都是把它當作整體來規劃，所以北北基桃您剛才講得很好，就是把它當作是一個整體來做規劃，所以交通規劃也是按照這樣的方式來進行，這也就是TPASS為什麼我們也是用1,200元來cover這四個城市。"],["林委員沛祥：謝謝院長。我想請問一個事情，就是TPASS上路之後，當然成效滿好的，但是以財源來講，嚴格來說，這個在北北基桃所使用的1,200元TPASS，請問會延續到多久？今年、明年，會一直編列下去嗎？還是中間會因人……或政息人亡？"],["陳院長建仁：我們當然是希望能夠繼續編下去，當然這個預算的編列還需要送到大院來審查，但是現在的預算是到114年。"],["林委員沛祥：好，據我所知道，去年年底的時候，我們就知道基隆捷運第一階段八堵到南港已經核定了，請問什麼時候完工？什麼時候通車？能不能給本席跟基隆市民一個比較明確的時間？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我請部長回答你。"],["王部長國材：跟委員報告，目前，基隆捷運環評跟綜規都核定了，所以現在是在新北市政府，它會來做興建的工作，預計是在民國123年完工，目前的目標也是123年。"],["林委員沛祥：123年嗎？"],["王部長國材：對，民國123年。"],["林委員沛祥：我認為可能完工通車，馬上就會出問題，為什麼？因為我們知道，現在基隆捷運從八堵到南港就要33分鐘，也就是說，現行的臺鐵區間車只要23分鐘到24分鐘；目前的自強號只要14到17分鐘的時候，所以當通車的那一刻，也就是表示那是空車的那一刻，因為從基隆到臺北上班的人，我很難想像他們會願意搭一個比較不便捷的，如果一票一站，基隆火車站直達臺北火車站這樣的火車不用而改去搭捷運，像這樣的情況之下，會不會當基隆捷運第一段完工的時候，就是空車、就是惡夢的來臨呢？這不只是給中央政府，也是給新北市、臺北市，會不會有這樣事情發生，？"],["陳院長建仁：我想大家都喜歡來爭取捷運，包括基隆也是一樣，最主要的，委員可能也很清楚，捷運的班次跟臺鐵的班次是不一樣的，我請部長詳細跟您說明。"],["王部長國材：委員你如果注意看那個路線圖，它跟臺鐵已經分離了，比如說在基隆五堵地方的服務也很廣，所以兩個的服務範圍已經有一些不一樣了，這是第一個；第二個就是院長所提的，捷運的穩定性跟它的班次，雖然速度不如臺鐵，但服務的穩定性會讓很多人喜歡搭捷運。在過去我們討論過，也希望基隆捷運能夠帶動整個基隆沿線、北五堵的發展，目前也有一些相關計畫在進行。所以是不同的服務範圍，有不同的目標，現在也在進行。"],["林委員沛祥：基本上本席認為，不管怎麼樣，捷運的前提並不是為了都市發展，而是為了交通運輸，為了通勤族而準備的，對吧？"],["王部長國材：都市發展也很重要……"],["陳院長建仁：不是這樣……"],["林委員沛祥：我知道很重要，但以priority wise來說……"],["王部長國材：比如說八堵站……"],["林委員沛祥：以priority、優先順序來講，應該是通勤為主，再來才是都市發展。如果最後的目標是希望做軌道運輸，讓整體的軌道運輸可以提升，那麼假設從八堵到南港要花33分鐘，而從基隆到臺北火車站的時間可能會比這個綜合時間少很多。像本席今天早上自己從基隆開車到臺北上班，或像以前坐火車從基隆到臺北來上班的人來說，我覺得他們要趕上9點的班、要趕在9點順利打卡，未來對坐捷運的人而言這會是很辛苦的事情。我不知道部長有沒有這個……"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告，以板南線來看，板橋到臺北有火車也有捷運。可是板南線後端服務的是以前臺鐵沒有服務到的地方。我的意思是說它是一個……"],["林委員沛祥：部長，我直接問另外一個問題好了。請問基隆捷運最多可以坐……如果第一階段全部OK，都可以坐人的話，請問一列基隆捷運車廂可以放幾個人？"],["王部長國材：一般沒有這樣……就是1小時大概5,000人，可以運送5,000人……"],["林委員沛祥：5,000人次還是5,000人？"],["王部長國材：人次也可以。"],["林委員沛祥：是人次，不是5,000人，5,000人很多，現在每一句話都有紀錄……"],["王部長國材：看班次。"],["林委員沛祥：因為5,000人次等於2,500人，是嗎？"],["王部長國材：捷運有一個好處，比如班次縮短一半就變成1萬人。"],["林委員沛祥：我現在要問的問題是，一列列車有多少人？"],["王部長國材：應該是300人。"],["林委員沛祥：請問臺鐵呢？"],["王部長國材：像普悠瑪是500多人。"],["林委員沛祥：請問基隆市每天搭乘火車到臺北上班的有多少人？"],["王部長國材：應該有6萬人。"],["林委員沛祥：錯！只有1萬5,000人。是人，不是人次，來回算……"],["王部長國材：加起來就是6萬。"],["林委員沛祥：我們應該要把數字算得更精準……"],["王部長國材：總數10萬，鐵路大概6萬。"],["林委員沛祥：部長，我認為您對數字的掌握其實很有問題，真的很有問題。我想請問，假設有1萬5,000人，你剛剛說一列列車可以坐三、四百人，那麼如何在7點到9點之間，能夠順利把1萬5,000人從基隆運送到臺北呢？"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告……"],["林委員沛祥：你認為捷運做得到嗎？"],["王部長國材：不是，你現在都在算車廂，我可以跟委員……"],["林委員沛祥：現在一列車廂是414人，這是昨天出來的報告上寫的。33分鐘也是昨天出來的綜合報告上寫的，我想請問你，這報告是真的還是假的？我也有其他很弔詭的事想順便問。我想就從這個資料來看一下好了，這是你們在綜合評估報告裡的資料，本席是基隆市市民，對於基隆市的財務本席相當關心。我想請問，以現行臺鐵的運量為參考，以後是否可以支撐整個基隆捷運的運作？我們要知道一件事情，現在基隆捷運第一段完工的點是在八堵，八堵附近有多少人願意搭捷運？還是直接開車到臺北？這件事情請部長列入考量。"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告，我們一般在規劃捷運時，要把車站的土地開發，包括都市計畫一起考量……"],["林委員沛祥：講到土地開發，講到綜合計畫效應評估……"],["王部長國材：一定要有未來性……"],["林委員沛祥：請看一下我剛剛給的圖表。請問單就營運成本與預期的收益推估，就基隆地區而言，需要負擔多少虧損才能支持營運？畢竟二氧化碳跟肇事效益跟土地開發效益，不能直接折成金錢或薪水做維護吧？"],["王部長國材：是，跟委員報告，如果在公共運輸你只講能不能自負盈虧，那很多公共運輸都做不下去，我們唯一能做的就是開了班次以後要透過土地開發來挹注它的收入，目前是這樣。"],["林委員沛祥：不過……"],["王部長國材：現在是說如果這個土地開發不做，效益會很差……"],["林委員沛祥：不好意思，部長，我還有另外一個最現實的問題要問。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["林委員沛祥：這條基隆捷運只到八堵，沒有到基隆市市區，請問第二階段的規劃什麼時候開始？"],["王部長國材：現在基隆市政府有提出一個八堵到基隆火車站的申請經費，大概一千多萬，我們會給予協助，這個部分就留給基隆市政府，看它未來要往哪邊走，往安樂區或是往中正區就由他們自己決定。"],["林委員沛祥：本席對於你說要給予協助給予肯定……"],["王部長國材：就是可行性的規劃……"],["林委員沛祥：不過本席更希望行政院可以給基隆市多一點幫忙，因為有關這個規劃，基本上如果我記得沒有錯，林右昌部長也在場，當初是國家海洋門戶計畫，剛開始是一毛錢都不用付，現在行政院改朝換代之後說使用者付費，基隆人也就認了，但是本席認為這條基隆捷運對於都市發展是有幫助的，但若以通勤運輸而言，對於這10萬通勤族的幫助非常的小，這是本席要先把這件事情講清楚的地方。","再來，通勤人數10萬大軍天天臺北基隆兩邊跑，這就是基隆人的困境。部長，我剛剛跟你講的是1萬5,000人，以前高峰的時候到1萬7,000人的……"],["王部長國材：就是總數10萬，我剛剛講10萬嘛……"],["林委員沛祥：可是10萬是總數，之前1萬7，現在掉到1萬5，因為快捷公車掉到1萬5，甚至1萬3，這是基隆人天天往臺北跑的困境。"],["王部長國材：對。"],["林委員沛祥：部長，請問你知道天天開車的有多少人？天天坐國道客運的有多少人嗎？"],["王部長國材：數字喔，據我當時的瞭解大概有5萬啦，5萬是這個……"],["林委員沛祥：沒有錯，這樣加起來，5萬人開車，其他4萬人搭國道客運，這也就是為什麼本席特地要拿出來在這邊講，因為我們國道客運現在缺工、缺班次，天天看到可憐的基隆人在臺北的街頭等車，本席陪他們等了5年，在這種天氣，今天晚上還是會有人在外等車。現在基隆人已經可憐到我們在高速公路上塞車還可以勉強忍受，但是對於在路邊站著沒有車子來的那個怨氣是直接往本席跟政府上面發的，所以為什麼本席在上任後就參加交通委員會，而今天也要針對國道客運來討個說法。白天來臺北的車是班班客滿，這個是1802路線，1802這條路線是目前基隆市十大路線之一，排名第七的路線，是從基隆到三重，我們可以清楚看到白天上班時間從基隆到臺北是班班客滿，晚上下班時間從臺北到基隆是班班客滿。更直接的以班距來講，這是基隆人的需求，這就是我們看到基隆人的需求，尖峰時段跟離峰時段差非常遠，但是對於客運業者來講其實是很辛苦的，為什麼這樣說？因為不管何時，全國客運業者都是一樣的運價補助，也就是說，全國都是一樣的時候，從基隆到臺北，請問部長或者院長，你們知道基隆到臺北到底幾公里嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我不太清楚。"],["林委員沛祥：25公里，同樣的問題也發生在桃園，剛剛牛煦庭委員也講到，他們的國道客運也出了一樣的問題，為什麼？因為從桃園到臺北35公里，可是如果你只給這樣的補助，這些業者當然是入不敷出啊！更何況說……"],["王部長國材：這個……"],["林委員沛祥：部長，其實你知道我下一個要講什麼，離峰的時候沒人坐，尖峰的時候供不應求，像這樣很不合理的……"],["王部長國材：是，有關國道客運的票價，最近他們有提進來，我剛才有回答過，公路局已經審完到交通部，如果他們的成本要提升……"],["林委員沛祥：部長，我可以直接跟你講，對基隆、對桃園不會有幫助的，葛瑪蘭還是一樣照倒，國光還是一樣會向你訴苦！為什麼？因為很簡單，還是里程數的問題，你的新票價調整是給全國的，對於短程的，我們並沒有特別去尊重，變成基隆人、桃園人要離鄉背井到臺北上班的時候會去坐國道公車，這是為了省錢、為了讓自己方便，因為不是每個人都有能力開車。院長，不是每個人都有司機，也不是每個人都有能力開車，但是不管怎麼樣，他們如果在臺北上班，因為基隆沒有工作機會，基隆的工作機會是少的，在基隆港沒落之後，基隆港的工作機會是少的，這是我下一個要講的議題，而這造成他們必須到臺北上班的時候，他們就要想怎麼樣能在9點整到公司打卡。部長知道要在9點整到臺北的公司打卡，從基隆出發的話，必需幾點要出門嗎？6點半，如果自己不開車的話。因為在基隆就要等車啊，不是晚上在臺北的路口等車，白天也要在基隆的路口等車，中間還要塞車45分鐘到1小時，而且到臺北之後並不是直接到公司門口，還要再轉車，轉三、四項，部長也好、院長也好，你們覺得這樣的人生會是幸福的嗎？這樣的感覺會是好的嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：所以我想整個交通規劃很重要的就是怎麼樣快捷而且合理，剛才我講通則啦，你現在講的這個捷運很重要，國道客運也很重要，未來以長遠來看，我們需要有一個捷運讓大家不必等很久就可以搭到車，而且捷運的體系在新北市、臺北市及桃園市都可以看得到是很方便的……"],["林委員沛祥：院長，我認為……"],["陳院長建仁：國道的部分，你剛才講到應該檢討相關的……"],["林委員沛祥：院長，不好意思，容我打斷，我認同你的講法，捷運到基隆是好事，但是這個好事是10年之後才能到的時候，這10年……"],["陳院長建仁：對啦，所以……"],["林委員沛祥：而且10年之後我們只到八堵，基隆市暖暖區及七堵區加起來大概8萬人口而已，基隆市有36萬到37萬人啊，他們都無法直接享受到這個捷運，而且捷運車站過去，基隆地方面積又特別狹小的時候，你要我們怎麼跟選民、市民交代說基隆捷運會對我們基隆通勤族有所幫助？"],["陳院長建仁：所以……"],["林委員沛祥：不好意思，讓我講完很重要的一句話，當你看到的這些通勤人口全部都是上班人口的時候，基隆市上班人口只有17萬人，當中有將近11萬人在臺北上班，你覺得他們會不會對這個政府感到非常失望？"],["王部長國材：不會，委員，我跟你報告，你談國道客運，因為國道客運走高速公路，不穩定嘛，班次，所以一般，像基隆是全國公共運輸使用率第二高的城市，所以我們現在才有基隆捷運，就是當你的運量培養一陣子後一定要捷運，這是第一個啦。"],["林委員沛祥：部長、部長……"],["陳院長建仁：你給他講完可能會比較瞭解。"],["王部長國材：第二個，我要跟你說明。八堵到基隆也不是不做，當時討論就是拆遷的課題沒辦法克服，所以留給下一屆……"],["林委員沛祥：部長，我覺得如果比較務實一點，你講到基隆捷運到八堵，我希望規劃能夠早點實施，希望我在有生之年能看得到基隆捷運進基隆市區……"],["陳院長建仁：可以啦，你可以活到那時候……"],["林委員沛祥：但是比較現實的就是說，你的feeder system要不要趕快做一做，也就是八堵站、七堵站旁邊這些feeder，這些所謂的R字頭公車，是不是中央可以先暫時補助？先把這些人養起來啊！這些人沒有先養起來，未來捷運到了之後才叫他們去搭乘，那是來不及的！"],["王部長國材：這個我們跟地方一起來討論，我想……"],["林委員沛祥：R線公車我一講部長就懂了，這是已經有客源的，而且是已經習慣的，如果未來捷運到基隆要想能夠活得下去、使用率要高，R線公車不能廢，現在R線公車是基隆市政府天天在那邊撐著，這不是正確的方法！這是當初臺鐵捷運化出來時的輔助公車，現在如果捷運真的要到基隆，為什麼R線公車中央不能幫忙？"],["王部長國材：是，我想跟委員……"],["林委員沛祥：部長，我還有另外一個更大的議題，我先把這個議題講完，請你好好去修改所謂的運輸業管理規則，因為老實講，25公里、35公里用國道客運補助來計算根本是一點都不公平，業者也辛苦，我們搭車的人也辛苦……"],["王部長國材：目前……"],["林委員沛祥：而且離峰跟尖峰不到50公里的國道客運，基本上在計算方面來講是個笑話，而且最現實的是離峰的時候如果沒有人搭乘，就不要讓司機累死，不要讓司機開空車，我們知道勞基法跟國道客運法一個8小時、一個10小時，大家都是幫忙勞基法，但是現在基隆缺司機，全臺灣都缺司機，基隆更缺，這點請部長回去看一下運輸業管理規則是否能夠修正符合……"],["王部長國材：公共運輸的離峰跟尖峰是一個普遍都會有的問題，也很少說離峰就不開，離峰時段有的人要搭，縱然是5個人，尤其沒有在上班的老人家，所以也沒辦法說離峰都不開，一般都會去搭配，尖峰開的班次比較多，離峰開的班次比較少，提供一個……"],["林委員沛祥：我是希望你們能做出例外，因為老實講，這個問題不是只有基隆有，我剛剛講過，這個問題不是只有基隆有，桃園也有，葛瑪蘭客運兩條線要收的，煦庭很辛苦的把它救回來，但是這樣事情其實不應該讓它發生……"],["王部長國材：我們來維持一個服務品質，我們不會確保它中斷，我想說如果相關要檢討我們來討論。"],["林委員沛祥：好。院長，您有聽過美國一個報導說，假設你通勤的時間超過3個小時，你的生活品質、你的家庭的家庭關係就會瀕臨破裂嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有聽過這樣的說法，但是我在美國住過蠻長一段時間……"],["林委員沛祥：其實美國離婚率最高的地方叫做矽谷，因為他們通勤的時間，如果用通勤的話，他們通勤時間超過5個小時，很多人因為矽谷的薪水高，所以跑去矽谷就業。同樣的狀況，其實也發生在北北基桃，尤其是在基隆跟臺北之間。臺北市把很多基隆的精華人才吸到臺北市，但是通勤的狀況導致基隆人越來越不快樂。我們基隆有三高，失業率高、離婚率高跟自殺率最高，而……"],["陳院長建仁：這個數據我沒有看過。"],["林委員沛祥：好。我為什麼要這樣講呢？其實根本上來講是因為失業率。時間過得很快，40年前（1984年）基隆是全世界十大海港之一，那時候基隆在十大海港中排名很高將近第七，1987年排名最高的時候是第七，那是基隆港排名最高的時候，後來我們知道貨運轉型，再加上WTO，再加上港口轉型各方面的挑戰之後，基隆港開始沒落。1984年，如果我當初讀的資料沒有錯的話，那時候在基隆，一個基隆港可以養活6萬個家庭，也就是有6萬個工作機會，但是現在基隆市，因為很多年長者還是留在基隆，院長您也知道，基隆的高齡化也是在全國名列前茅的，但是他們轉型不容易，所以當失業率高，離婚率也高的時候，基隆港90%以上的收入都來自貨運商港，並不是大家想的郵輪港或郵輪母港。本席以前在港務公司待過將近5年的時間，本席曾經代表臺灣、代表港務公司去外面拉過航線過來，本席很清楚郵輪不會賺錢，要靠郵輪提高工作機會在基隆是很困難的事情，因為基隆沒有腹地。郵輪母港需要有人上下船之外，還要有補給跟修船的功能。那您認同這句話嗎？總統當選人賴清德說，他也說他是基隆子弟，他說未來要把整個基隆港變成郵輪港。"],["陳院長建仁：我想這是部分的商港要轉為郵輪港，那郵輪確實在全世界現在在海洋航運上扮演一個蠻重要的角色。"],["林委員沛祥：院長，我必須跟您談這個事情，我願意花多一點時間，這是他在12月24號的時候親口在媒體上講的，目前看起來這句話的解說是，他希望把所有的貨運都移到臺北港。那以海運的知識來講，基隆港比臺北港好太多了，因為臺北港只要64號觀音山那個隧道一出問題，所有的貨都出不去、進不來。"],["王部長國材：是。跟委員報告，目前是這樣……"],["林委員沛祥：不好意思讓我講完，為什麼要講完的原因是因為，過去幾年因為疫情，我們不知道下一次什麼時候疫情會來，其實疫情就跟戰爭一樣隨時可能會發生，疫情也好，戰爭也好，一發生的時候觀光業是最倒楣的，郵輪基本上來講是個高檔的觀光業。那請問一下，如果郵輪港真的在基隆出事，我們行政院，我們中央政府有任何補救措施嗎？我們假設就如同新政府講的，要把基隆變成全面的郵輪港，有任何補救措施嗎？有任何準備嗎？"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告，現在是東岸慢慢……比如說我們的軍港西移到西岸，包括我們一些設施都往西岸走，所以未來東岸是以觀光為主，西岸還是貨櫃，未來基隆港跟臺北港會扮演各一半的角色，現在也大概150萬……"],["林委員沛祥：王部長，有很多港運的前輩跟我說您是這幾任部長裡面算比較負責、比較專業的部長，那我想請問你，基隆捷運到基隆，經過北五堵這些做貨櫃倉儲的地方，未來是不是會變成捷運用地、變成商業用地？"],["王部長國材：我們……"],["林委員沛祥：好，再來，你說這1萬3,000人，那最後也許移到臺北港去，因為如果沒有腹地，基本上基隆西岸，你說貨都在西岸對吧？西岸就是中山區那邊，不管是東岸還是西岸的貨，如果後面沒有貨場的話，請問這個港、這個貨運怎麼做啊？"],["王部長國材：它現在也沒有全部轉移啦！"],["林委員沛祥：當然還沒有轉移啊！可是未來很有可能轉移，所以我要知道新政府未來對基隆的規劃啊！"],["王部長國材：現在就是郵輪跟貨、就是客貨都兼顧，目前是兼顧。"],["林委員沛祥：所以我剛剛問你們認不認同下一任總統當選人賴清德的說法啊！"],["王部長國材：他應該是說要加強郵輪的功能。"],["林委員沛祥：假設他的計畫真的把臺北港變成全北部第一大港，那我可以很負責的跟院長、跟部長、跟所有內閣成員報告，基隆市的交通絕對會完蛋，基隆市一定會造反，為什麼？很現實的，就是這1萬3,000人，你把這1萬3,000人再逼上國道客運，請問一下，這1萬3,000人如果本來是在港口工作的人，請問這1萬3,000人要怎麼樣從基隆到臺北港去？一定也是走國道1號啊！"],["陳院長建仁：剛才講過，發展成郵輪是在東岸的部分，那西岸的部分還是商港的部分，這剛才已經講過了，那委員這一個整合全體的規劃，我想交通部都有自己的看法。當然，委員你的意見很寶貴，我們也願意來聆聽你的意見，我們看看你的意見有什麼建議……"],["林委員沛祥：院長想一想基隆港從全球第七大港到現在可能掉到全球排名150名之外，為什麼？因為船隻巨大化，再加上我們沒有腹地，我們真的沒有腹地，唯一的腹地就是在北五堵那邊的貨櫃集散場、那邊的倉儲用地。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["林委員沛祥：現在因為基隆捷運而要把這些倉儲用地拿掉，然後你跟我講你們來規劃，那我很想知道你們未來的規劃是怎麼樣幫基隆商港留下來，因為基隆商港的這個功能一旦不在，1萬3,000人馬上上國道。"],["王部長國材：跟委員報告，事實上，現在都在轉型，因為全國裡面就是基隆的郵輪母港是全世界所有遊艇業者最喜歡來的一個地方，為了因應這個，我們在做西岸跟東岸的旅運中心，我知道委員你也看到，未來……"],["林委員沛祥：我直接這樣講……"],["王部長國材：所以是兼顧這件事，我再跟委員報告，一定是兼顧，不可能把貨運……因為貨運是關係到經濟的發展。"],["林委員沛祥：我希望部長您講這句話，現在媒體都在看，這句話是有會議紀錄的。"],["陳院長建仁：是啊！"],["林委員沛祥：因為這是代表基隆的1萬3,000人，這是1萬3,000個家庭的生計，是我基隆1萬3,000個家庭的生計，請記得這句話。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我再強調一次，我們把基隆港定位為北部海運貨物的進出港以及國際郵輪的母港，這是我們的定義，這是在我們的國際商港未來發展及建設計畫裡面，這是在110年10月12號的計畫。"],["林委員沛祥：我希望陳院長您剛剛講的這些話，未來下一個執政團隊會買單，這句話大家聽到了，未來下一個執政團隊……部長，您知道我在講什麼。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，因為你是新的委員……"],["林委員沛祥：不好意思，我再請問一件事情……"],["陳院長建仁：我再跟你講，111年到115年的計畫就是剛才我講的啦！"],["林委員沛祥：不好意思，我現在直接問一個最直接的事情，全國有57%的關稅是在基隆關，但是基隆港、基隆市說真的財政很困難，基隆市所有的公共建設、基隆市的空污、基隆市很多方面的公共建設不便，嚴格講起來，都是基隆港帶來的，沒有錯！有港才有市，但是我們現在基隆市36萬人全體在為了基隆港做出犧牲。那我想請問，以前有一句話叫Taxation without representation，就是有賦稅但是沒有代表權，或是Taxation without benefit，你要我的稅，我們幫國家犧牲這麼多，但是我們在這個港口的城市居民沒有得到合理的對待，那我想請問，未來的關稅是不是可以某個程度照比例分配？而且嚴格講起來，我也必須講一句實話，基隆、臺中、臺北、新北還有高雄都自詡是海洋城市，我們臺灣自詡是海洋國家，但是我們對港口旁邊都市的建造一點都沒有重視。新北、高雄、臺中剛好是六都，不是因為我們臺灣中央政府對他們這些港埠城市有任何的重視，所以我認為未來不合理的關稅分配，至少要分還給當地的城市。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員說明一下，關稅的部分是進入國庫來統籌分配，中央對地方有一個中央統籌分配稅款，這裡面有一個指標就是營業額，如果這個商港在這個城市，它相對的工商活動會比較活潑，那它的營業額高，對於中央稅款的分配也可以有所回饋。另外，在主計總處的一般補助款裡面，對於商港城市也有加權、加重的分配指標。"],["林委員沛祥：我想未來我們在其他的地方、在委員會，我會好好跟您討論。"],["莊部長翠雲：好、是。"],["陳院長建仁：這是關稅的部分……"],["主席：謝謝林委員沛祥的質詢，謝謝陳院長的備詢，謝謝。接下來請登記第24號李委員柏毅質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":15,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-3","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-01"],"gazette_id":"1130501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1130501_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"149168","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149168","tool":"pyannote","id":"149168-pyannote"},"job_id":"SmH5CbsWkE0rWkdK","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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256.197, \"end\": 256.217, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 282.881, \"end\": 306.802, \"text\": \"解運的班次跟台鐵的班次是不一樣的。我請部長來詳細跟你回答。你如果注意看那個路線圖,它跟台鐵已經分離了。比如說你在五堵,基隆在五堵地方的服務很廣,所以它兩個的服務範圍已經有一些不一樣了。第二個就是院長所提的,解運的穩定性跟它的班次,\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 282.881, \"end\": 283.161, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"運\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 283.161, \"end\": 283.301, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"班\", \"start\": 283.301, \"end\": 283.562, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 283.562, \"end\": 284.022, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 284.022, \"end\": 285.543, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 285.543, \"end\": 285.844, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"鐵\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 285.844, \"end\": 285.964, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"班\", \"start\": 285.964, \"end\": 286.164, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 286.164, \"end\": 286.344, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 286.344, \"end\": 286.504, 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525.28, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 525.28, \"end\": 526.001, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 526.001, \"end\": 526.401, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 526.401, \"end\": 526.501, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 526.501, \"end\": 526.581, \"score\": 0.774}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 526.581, \"end\": 526.661, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 526.661, \"end\": 526.801, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 526.801, \"end\": 526.901, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 526.901, \"end\": 526.921, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 526.921, \"end\": 526.981, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 526.981, \"end\": 527.542, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"好\", 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{\"word\": \"隆\", \"start\": 559.515, \"end\": 559.675, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"捷\", \"start\": 559.675, \"end\": 559.876, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"運\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 559.876, \"end\": 560.136, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"運\"}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 560.136, \"end\": 560.837, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 560.837, \"end\": 561.057, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 561.057, \"end\": 561.217, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 561.217, \"end\": 561.377, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 561.377, \"end\": 561.498, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 561.498, \"end\": 561.618, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 561.618, \"end\": 561.698, \"score\": 0.737}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 561.698, \"end\": 561.918, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 561.918, \"end\": 562.078, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 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\"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:30,388 --> 00:00:53,561\n請直接發言,沒問題。麥克風已經開了。院長,請陳建仁院長備詢。好,麻煩請陳院長備詢。特別跟林委員報告,三個麥克風都可以用。對。林委員長,恭喜你當選立委。院長謝謝。我們是行政院院長,\n\n2\n00:00:54,795 --> 00:00:58,697\n您是官我是民我是民代所以今天不管如何我希望有個善意的質詢跟回應\n\n3\n00:01:18,121 --> 00:01:46,437\n為什麼先把北北基的這個議題拿出來講因為我記得沒有錯的話賴清德總統當選人在選舉的時候曾經提出來的桃竹苗大細股一年200億的計畫那我就很想知道說那對於我們北北基桃目前的規劃是什麼畢竟來講北北基桃加起來可能超過1000萬人口也是目前我們全國最大人口區\n\n4\n00:01:47,297 --> 00:01:49,459\n我想北北寄討我們本來就是把它當作首都生活圈\n\n5\n00:02:01,971 --> 00:02:03,832\n謝謝院長那我想請問一個事情就是TPASS上路之後當然是成效蠻好的\n\n6\n00:02:30,726 --> 00:02:37,029\n但是這個財源來講嚴格來說本席也認為說這個TPAS1200那這個會延續到多久?現在我們的預算我們當然是希望能夠繼續編下去那當然這個預算的編列還需要送到大院來審查但是現在的預算是到114年\n\n7\n00:03:00,618 --> 00:03:01,759\n好,我請部長回答你。\n\n8\n00:03:17,379 --> 00:03:46,222\n跟委員報告目前基隆捷運還品跟中規都合訂了所以現在是在新北市政府他會來做興建的工作那目前是在民國123年完工目前的目標年是123年123年嗎?對民國123年那請問我認為是可能馬上通車馬上就會完工通車馬上出問題為什麼?因為我們知道說現在基隆捷運\n\n9\n00:03:47,633 --> 00:04:12,754\n從八堵到南港就要33分鐘。也就是說我們如果現行的台鐵鞋區間車只要23分鐘到24分鐘目前的自強號只要14到17分鐘的時候當通車的那一刻也就是表示那是空車的那一刻因為從基隆到台北上班的人我很難想像說他們會願意搭一個比較便捷如果一票\n\n10\n00:04:13,775 --> 00:04:16,217\n我想大家都喜歡來爭取決議包括基隆也是一樣那最主要委員可能也很清楚\n\n11\n00:04:42,881 --> 00:05:06,802\n解運的班次跟台鐵的班次是不一樣的。我請部長來詳細跟你回答。你如果注意看那個路線圖,它跟台鐵已經分離了。比如說你在五堵,基隆在五堵地方的服務很廣,所以它兩個的服務範圍已經有一些不一樣了。第二個就是院長所提的,解運的穩定性跟它的班次,\n\n12\n00:05:07,943 --> 00:05:36,652\n雖然他速度不如台鐵但是他的服務的這個穩定性會很多人會喜歡去搭這個捷運所以想說在過去我們討論也希望說這個基隆捷運能夠帶動整個基隆沿線北部的這些發展那目前也有一些相關的計畫在進行所以他是不同的服務範圍有這個不同的目標他現在來進行基本上我個人我本人我本席認為不管怎麼樣捷運的\n\n13\n00:05:37,752 --> 00:06:06,986\n前提不是為了都市發展而是為了交通運輸,為了通勤足額準備的對吧?都市發展應該很重要。都市發展很重要,但是如果Prioritywise,以優先順序來講的話,應該是通勤為主再來才是都市發展。那如果最後的目標是希望軌道運輸,整體的軌道運輸可以提升的話,那就會變成是說假設從八堵到南港端都要花33分鐘,而從基隆到台北火車站的時間可能會比這個\n\n14\n00:06:07,546 --> 00:06:25,694\n中國時間來得少很多的話以本席一個今天早上自己開車從基隆開自己開車從基隆來台北上班的人或以前從坐火車從基隆到台北來上班的人我會覺得說他們要趕上9點的那個班要趕上9點能夠順利打卡\n\n15\n00:06:26,774 --> 00:06:46,568\n這個是對於未來做捷運會很辛苦的事情。我不知道部長有沒有這個...我跟各位報告以阪南縣來看,你說阪橋到台北有火車也有捷運,可是阪南縣的後端是服務包括這個相關的以前台鐵沒有服務到的地方。\n\n16\n00:06:48,509 --> 00:06:59,093\n部長我直接問另外一個問題好了,請問一下基隆捷運最多可以做,如果全部1D1階段全部都可以做人的話,請問一下基隆捷運這一列車廂可以放幾個人?\n\n17\n00:07:00,787 --> 00:07:19,601\n他一般沒有這樣,就是一小時大概五千人,可以運送五千人。五千人次還是五千人次?五千人次也可以。五千人有很多,因為院長每一句話我們現在每個人都在記錄,因為五千人次等於2500人是嗎?今天有個好處,比如說班次縮短一半,就變成一萬人。\n\n18\n00:07:21,042 --> 00:07:45,009\n我現在要問的問題是在於說請問這一列列車我剛剛有講一列列車多少人?應該是300人。那請問台鐵呢?台鐵像普洋馬那些是500多人。那請問你知道基隆市每天搭乘火車到台北上班的人有多少人?大概應該是有6萬人。\n\n19\n00:07:47,642 --> 00:07:53,790\n錯,只有一萬五千人,人不是人次是人,你是來回算,我們應該要把這個數字更精準。總數十萬啦,鐵路大概六萬。\n\n20\n00:08:00,295 --> 00:08:21,981\n部長,我認為您對數字的掌握其實很有問題,真的很有問題。不過我想請問說,如果假設一萬五千人,你剛剛說是三、四百人一列列車,那麼你如何在七點到九點之間能夠順利的把一萬五千人從基隆到台北運送呢?\n\n21\n00:08:23,761 --> 00:08:47,642\n你認為協議做得到嗎?車廂的話現在一列414人啊這是昨天出來的報告上面寫的啊33分鐘也是昨天出來中國報告上面寫的啊那我只想問你這報告是真的還假的順便我也想問其他的我覺得都是很弔詭的事情那我想請問說我們想從這邊這個資料來看一下好了\n\n22\n00:08:51,786 --> 00:08:55,410\n這是你們自己通過文部報告提出來的資料嗎?是,來,謝謝這是什麼東西?\n\n23\n00:09:05,658 --> 00:09:22,298\n本席是基隆市市民那對於基隆市的財務本席相當關心那我想請問一下以現行台鐵的運量來為參考是否以後可以支撐整個基隆捷運的運作因為我們要知道一件事情喔\n\n24\n00:09:24,774 --> 00:09:35,882\n現在基隆捷運第一段完工的點是在巴堵巴堵附近有多少人願意去搭捷運還是直接開車到台北這件事情請部長列入考量\n\n25\n00:09:36,977 --> 00:09:39,339\n請問一下如果說在這個單就營運成本跟預期收益的推估之後就基隆地區\n\n26\n00:09:58,433 --> 00:09:58,713\n我剛才報告齁\n\n27\n00:10:14,053 --> 00:10:35,401\n如果在公共運輸你只講能不能自負盈虧,那很多公共運輸都做不下去。我們唯一能做的就是說我開了班次以後我要透過土地開發來挹注他的收入。現在目前是這樣。現在就是說如果這個效益,土地開發不做效益一定很差。部長我還有另外一個最現實的問題要問。\n\n28\n00:10:37,322 --> 00:10:42,887\n我們現在基隆市政府有提出一個巴獨到基隆火車站的這個申請經費大概一千多萬我們會給予協助\n\n29\n00:10:55,317 --> 00:11:09,882\n這個部分就留給基隆市政府看他未來要往哪邊走。往安樂區或是往這個重症區。本席對於你說要給予協助、給予肯定。不過本席更希望說我們行政院可以給基隆市多一點幫忙。\n\n30\n00:11:11,735 --> 00:11:39,564\n因為這一個規劃基本上我如果我記得沒有錯話林佑昌林部長也在場當初是國家海洋門戶計畫剛開始是一毛錢都不用付現在好行政院改朝換代之後說使用者付費那基隆人也就認了但是這條基隆捷運本席認為對於都市發展是有幫助的但對於通勤運輸對於這些10萬通勤族幫助非常的小\n\n31\n00:11:40,644 --> 00:11:58,095\n這是本席要先把這件事講清楚的地方。再來通勤人數10萬大軍,天天台北基隆兩邊跑。這就是基隆人的困境。部長我剛剛跟你講的是15000人,本來是以前高峰的時候是到17000人的。\n\n32\n00:12:02,670 --> 00:12:20,910\n總數10萬,我剛才講10萬嘛。可是10萬是總數,1萬7是1萬5,現在掉到1萬5,因為快捷公車掉到1萬5,甚至到1萬3。這個是基隆人天天往臺北跑的困境。那部長請問你知道說天天開車的人有多少,天天做國道科運的人有多少嗎?\n\n33\n00:12:23,533 --> 00:12:49,028\n數字齁,我據我當時的了解是大概有5萬啦齁,5萬是這一個...所以說沒有錯,這樣加起來5萬人開車,其他4萬人搭國道客運。這也就是為什麼本席特地要拿出來這個講。因為我們國道客運現在我們知道缺工缺班次,天天你看到可憐的基隆人在臺北的街頭等車,本席陪他們等了5年。\n\n34\n00:12:51,072 --> 00:13:15,892\n在這種天氣今天晚上還是有人在外面等車而現在基隆人已經可憐到說我們在高速公路上面塞著我們還可以勉強忍受但是你在路邊站著沒有車子來的時候那個怨氣是直接往本席跟政府上面發的所以說為什麼本席在一上任之後我今天在交通委員會我就是要針對國道客運的事情來討個說法\n\n35\n00:13:19,670 --> 00:13:47,847\n白天來臺北的班班客滿這個是1802這條路線1802這條路線是目前基隆市十大路線之一排名第七的路線他是從基隆到三重我們可以清楚的看到白天上班的時間從基隆到臺北班班客滿晚上下班時間從臺北到基隆班班客滿更直接的班聚來講這是基隆人的需求\n\n36\n00:13:49,984 --> 00:14:14,867\n這就是我們看到基隆人的需求,搬去尖峰時段跟離峰時段差非常的遠,但是對於客運業者來講其實是很辛苦的。為什麼這樣說?因為客運業者不管在什麼時候,全國的客運業者都是一樣的運價補助。也就是說全國都是一樣的時候,基隆到台北,部長請問你知道,部長或者院長,院長請問你知道基隆到台北到底幾公里嗎?\n\n37\n00:14:17,121 --> 00:14:33,461\n二十五公里。同樣的問題也發生在桃園。剛剛劉許廷、劉委員也講到,他們的國道科研也出一樣問題。為什麼?因為從桃園到台北三十五公里。可是如果你只給這樣的補助,這些業者當然是入不敷出啊。更何況說,\n\n38\n00:14:35,114 --> 00:14:36,396\n國道客運的票價他們最近有提進來我剛才有回答過\n\n39\n00:14:51,875 --> 00:15:13,087\n部長,我可以直接跟你講,對基隆、對桃園不會有幫助的。葛瑪蘭還是一樣遭倒,國光還是一樣向你訴苦。為什麼?因為很簡單的,還是里程書的問題。你的新的票價條是給全國的,對於短程的我們並沒有特別去尊重。\n\n40\n00:15:13,868 --> 00:15:40,820\n根本是說基隆人、桃園人要離鄉背井來臺北上班的時候,他一定要做國道公車為了要省錢,為了要讓自己方便,因為不是每個人都有能力開車。院長,不是每個人都有失業,不是每個人都有能力開車,但是不管怎麼樣,他們如果在臺北上班,因為基隆沒有工作機會,基隆工作機會是少的,基隆港沒落之後基隆港工作機會少的,這是我下一個要講的議題。\n\n41\n00:15:41,420 --> 00:15:48,601\n而造成說他們必須來台北上班的時候他們就要想說我要怎麼樣9點整能夠打卡\n\n42\n00:15:50,165 --> 00:16:13,226\n那部長知道要9點整從基隆發車能夠打卡到臺北幾點要出門嗎?6點半,如果自己不開車的話,因為你在基隆就要等車啊,不是晚上你在臺北的路口等車,白天你也在基隆的路口等車,中間還要再塞3、45分鐘到1個小時的車,而且你到臺北之後,你不是直接到你的公司門口,你還要再轉車,轉3、4下。\n\n43\n00:16:17,006 --> 00:16:32,086\n部長也好,院長也好,你們覺得這樣的人生會是幸福的嗎?這樣的感覺會是好的嗎?所以我想整個交通的規劃很重要的就是怎麼樣快捷而且合理。那剛才我們\n\n44\n00:16:32,987 --> 00:16:48,961\n我講通則啦齁那你現在講的這一個捷運很重要然後呢國道的客運也很重要那未來在長遠來看我們需要有一個捷運讓大家不必要等很久就可以搭到車而且捷運的體系\n\n45\n00:16:49,461 --> 00:17:13,304\n在新北市、臺北市我們都可以看得到還有桃園市都是很方便的。國道的部分你剛才講到的應該檢討這一個相關的...院長不好意思讓我打斷我認同你的講法捷運到基隆是好事但是在好事10年之後才能到的時候而且10年之後我們現在只到八堵\n\n46\n00:17:14,258 --> 00:17:15,239\n不好意思讓我講很重要的一句話\n\n47\n00:17:37,432 --> 00:17:37,872\n委員我跟你報告\n\n48\n00:17:55,138 --> 00:18:17,831\n談國道,因為國道走高速公路不穩定,半次。所以一般像基隆是全國公共運輸使用率第二高的城市,所以我們現在才有基隆捷運。就是說當你培養一陣子一定要捷運。部長,你給他講話可能比較大聲。那個八堵到基隆也不是不做,當時討論就是拆遷的課題沒辦法克服。\n\n49\n00:18:19,431 --> 00:18:36,437\n部長,我覺得如果比較務實一點,你講到基隆捷運到八堵,我希望規劃能夠早早一點實施,我希望我在永生之年我看得到基隆捷運進基隆市區,但是比較現實的就是說你的feedersystem要不要趕快做一做,也就是八堵站旁邊,\n\n50\n00:18:37,597 --> 00:18:38,257\n這個我們跟地方一起來討論\n\n51\n00:18:56,927 --> 00:19:17,580\n這個是已經有客源的,已經習慣的。如果未來捷運要到基隆要讓他們能夠活得下去,要使用率要高,那R線公車不能廢。現在R線公車天天基隆市政府在那邊撐著,這不是正確的方法。這是當初台鐵捷運化出來的時候的輔助公車。現在如果捷運真的要到基隆,為什麼R線公車中央不能幫忙?\n\n52\n00:19:18,953 --> 00:19:40,621\n我想那個我還有另外一個更大的議題我先把這個議題講完請你好好去修改所謂的運輸業管理規則因為老實講25公里35公里就用國道客運來計算這一點根本一點都不公平業者也辛苦我們搭車的人也辛苦\n\n53\n00:19:41,883 --> 00:19:56,116\n而且離峰跟尖峰不到50公里的國道客運這基本上在計算方面來講是個笑話而且最現實的離峰的時候如果沒有人坐不要讓司機累死\n\n54\n00:19:56,917 --> 00:20:13,332\n不要讓司機開空車因為我們知道勞基法跟國道客運法一個8小時一個10小時大家都是幫忙勞基法但是我們現在基隆缺司機全台灣都缺司機基隆更缺這點請部長回去看一下運輸業管理規則是否能夠修正\n\n55\n00:20:14,693 --> 00:20:32,156\n公共運輸的離婚跟監控這個問題都普遍也很少說離婚就不開那離婚有人要搭,重點是五個人尤其沒有在上班的這些老人家所以也沒辦法說離婚都不開啦所以一般都會去搭配監控開的比較多離婚開的比較少\n\n56\n00:20:33,708 --> 00:20:54,143\n我是希望你們能做出例外,因為老實講這個問題不是只有基隆有,我剛剛講過,這問題不是只有基隆有,桃園也有。葛馬蘭客運兩條線要收了,許廷很辛苦的把他救回來,但是這樣事情其實不應該讓他發生。我們來維持一個服務品質,我們不會確保他中斷。我想說如果相關要檢討我們來討論。\n\n57\n00:20:56,598 --> 00:21:05,467\n院長,您有聽過美國一個報導說,假設你通勤的時間超過3個小時,你的生活品質、你的家庭關係就會瀕臨破裂嗎?\n\n58\n00:21:08,041 --> 00:21:24,454\n我沒有聽過這樣的說法,但是我在美國住過滿堂一段時間。其實美國離婚率最高的地方叫做矽谷,因為他們通勤的時間,如果用通勤的話,他們通勤時間超過5個小時。很多人因為矽谷的薪水高所以跑去矽谷。\n\n59\n00:21:26,676 --> 00:21:54,355\n同樣狀況其實發生也在北北基陶尤其是在基隆跟臺北之間臺北市把很多基隆的精華人才吸到臺北市但是通勤的狀況導致說基隆人越來越不快樂我們基隆有三高失業率高離婚率高跟自殺率最高而這個數據我沒看過了對好而我為什麼要這樣講呢其實根本上來講是因為失業率\n\n60\n00:21:55,632 --> 00:22:12,738\n基隆以前是40年前時間過很快40年前1984年基隆是全世界十大海港那時候基隆在十大海港排名很高將近第七最高的時候1987年排名第七那是基隆港最高的時候後來我們知道貨運轉型再加上WTO再加上港\n\n61\n00:22:13,078 --> 00:22:13,098\n﹚廣告\n\n62\n00:22:30,959 --> 00:22:43,896\n很多年長者還是留在基隆,基隆的高齡化也是全國名列前茅的,但是他們轉型不容易,所以當失業率高、離婚率也高的時候,\n\n63\n00:22:46,246 --> 00:23:12,540\n基隆港的90%以上的收入都來自貨運商港並不是大家想的郵輪港或郵輪母港本席以前在港務公司待過將近5年的時間本席曾經代表台灣代表港務公司去外面拉過航線過來本席很清楚郵輪不會賺錢郵輪提高工作機會在基隆是很困難的事情因為基隆沒有腹地\n\n64\n00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,916\n由於論壇需要有人上下船之外,還要有補給跟修船的功能。\n\n65\n00:23:20,322 --> 00:23:43,818\n您認同這句話嗎?總統當選的賴清德說,他也說他是基隆子弟,他說未來要把整個基隆港變成郵輪港。我想這是部分的商港要轉為郵輪港。那這個郵輪確實在全世界現在在海洋航運上是扮演一個蠻重要的角色。院長我必須跟您談這個事情,我願意花多一點時間。這是他在\n\n66\n00:23:44,378 --> 00:24:09,865\n二十二月二十四日親口在媒體上講的他希望把所有目前看起來這句話的解說是他希望把所有的貨運都移到台北港那以海運的知識來講基隆港比台北港好太多了因為台北港你只要把六十四號觀音山那個隧道一出問題所有的貨都出不去進不來根文報告目前是這樣不好意思讓我講完為什麼要講完的原因是因為\n\n67\n00:24:12,630 --> 00:24:35,699\n過去幾年因為疫情我們不知道下一次什麼時候疫情會來其實疫情就跟戰爭一樣隨時可能會發生那疫情也好戰爭也好一發生的時候觀光業是最倒楣的那郵輪基本上來講是個高檔的觀光業那請問一下如果郵輪港真的再計容出事我們行政院我們中央政府有任何補救措施嗎\n\n68\n00:24:36,789 --> 00:24:36,969\n黃部長,很多港\n\n69\n00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:13,170\n港運前輩跟我提過說您是這幾任部長裡面算比較負責比較專業的部長那我想請問你\n\n70\n00:25:14,758 --> 00:25:37,909\n基隆捷運到基隆經過的北五堵經過的五堵北五堵這些貨櫃倉儲未來是不是會變成捷運用地變成商業用地好再來你說這13000人那最後面去到台北港去因為沒有附地基本上基隆西岸你說貨都在西岸對吧西岸就是中山區那邊如果不管是東岸還是西岸的貨如果後面沒有後廠的話請問這個港這個貨運怎麼做啊\n\n71\n00:25:42,051 --> 00:25:59,004\n他現在也沒有全部轉移可是未來很有可能轉移所以未來我要知道新政府未來對金融的規劃啊現在就是郵輪跟貨就是這個客戶都兼顧了目前是兼顧我剛剛講說你們認不認同下一任總統賴新德賴總統當選人的說法他應該是說要加強郵輪的這個功能如果說\n\n72\n00:26:08,832 --> 00:26:22,889\n假設他的計畫真的把臺北港變成全北部第一大港,那我可以很負責的跟院長跟部長跟所有內閣報告,基隆市的交通絕對會完蛋,基隆市一定會造反。\n\n73\n00:26:24,212 --> 00:26:26,993\n剛才講過這個發展成郵輪是在東岸的部分那西岸的部分還實際上是香港的部分這剛才已經講過了\n\n74\n00:26:49,117 --> 00:27:16,918\n委員這一個整個全體的規劃呢我想交通部都有自己的看法當然委員你的意見很寶貴我們也願意來聆聽你的意見我們看看你的意見有什麼建議想一想七龍港從全球第七大港掉到現在全球排名可能的150名之外為什麼因為船隻巨大化再加上說我們沒有腹地我們真的沒有腹地唯一的腹地就是在北吳都那邊的貨櫃集散站那邊的倉儲用地\n\n75\n00:27:18,060 --> 00:27:30,460\n現在因為基隆捷運要把這些倉促用力拿掉,然後你跟我講說你們來規劃,那我很想知道說你們未來規劃怎麼樣幫基隆商港留下來,因為基隆商港如果這個功能一旦不在,一萬三千人馬上上國道。\n\n76\n00:27:31,381 --> 00:27:48,063\n市長跟委員現在都在轉型有時候就是因為全國裡面就是基隆的遊輪母港是所有全世界的這些遊艇業者最喜歡來的一個地方嘛那因應這個我們才做西岸跟東岸的禮運中心我知道那個委員你也看到現在\n\n77\n00:27:50,825 --> 00:28:09,537\n所以兼顧這件事我在跟委員一定是兼顧不可能把後運我希望部長您講這句話現在媒體都在看這句話是有會議記錄的因為這是代表基隆的一萬三千人雖然你們這是一萬三千個家庭喔這是一萬三千個家庭的生計\n\n78\n00:28:12,768 --> 00:28:30,722\n這是我基隆13000的家庭生計請記得這句話我再強調一次我們把基隆港定位為北部海運貨物的進出港以及國際郵輪的母港這是我們的定義這是在我們的國際商港未來發展及競爭的話裡面陳院長您剛剛講這些話這是在110年10月12號未來下一個執政團隊會買單\n\n79\n00:28:40,555 --> 00:28:48,063\n委員因為你是新的委員我再請問一件事情我再跟你講111到115年的計畫就是剛才我講的啦不好意思我現在直接問一個最直接的事情基隆關全國57%的關稅是在基隆關\n\n80\n00:29:02,037 --> 00:29:22,535\n但是基隆港說真的基隆市說真的財政很困難基隆市的所有的公共建設基隆市的所有公共基隆市的空屋基隆市很多方面公共建設不變嚴格講起來都是基隆港帶來的沒有錯有港才有市但是我們現在基隆市36萬人全體在為了基隆港在去做我們做出犧牲\n\n81\n00:29:24,222 --> 00:29:50,534\n我想請問這種以前有一句話叫Taxationwithoutrepresentation有付稅但是沒有代表權或Taxationwithoutbenefit你要我的稅我們幫國家犧牲這麼多但是我們在這港口的城市居民沒有得到合理的對待那我想請問未來的關稅是不是可以某種程度上比例而且嚴格講起來我也必須講一句實話\n\n82\n00:29:51,502 --> 00:30:19,545\n基隆、台中、台北、新北還有高雄都自詡是海洋城市我們台灣自詡是海洋國家但是我們對港口旁邊都市的建造一點都沒有重視新北、高雄、台中是剛好是六都不是因為說我們台灣中央政府對他們這些港都、港部城市有任何的重視所以我認為說在未來不合理的關稅分配至少要分劃給當地的城市\n\n83\n00:30:23,682 --> 00:30:51,942\n跟委員說明一下關稅的部分那是進入博庫來統籌分配那中央對地方有一個中央統籌分配稅款這裡面有一個指標就是那個營業額那營業額如果這個還商港在這個城市那他相對的工商活動會比較活潑那他的營業額的高那對於中央稅款的分配也可以有所回饋另外在主計總署的一般的補助款裡面對於商港城市也有加權的一個加重的\n\n84\n00:30:59,158 --> 00:31:03,108\n好謝謝林委員沛祥的質詢謝謝陳院長的備詢謝謝接下來我們請登記第24號李委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n30388\t53561\t請直接發言,沒問題。麥克風已經開了。院長,請陳建仁院長備詢。好,麻煩請陳院長備詢。特別跟林委員報告,三個麥克風都可以用。對。林委員長,恭喜你當選立委。院長謝謝。我們是行政院院長,\n54795\t58697\t您是官 我是民 我是民代所以今天不管如何我希望有個善意的質詢跟回應\n78121\t106437\t為什麼先把北北基的這個議題拿出來講因為我記得沒有錯的話賴清德總統當選人在選舉的時候曾經提出來的桃竹苗大細股一年200億的計畫那我就很想知道說那對於我們北北基桃目前的規劃是什麼畢竟來講北北基桃加起來可能超過1000萬人口也是目前我們全國最大人口區\n107297\t109459\t我想北北寄討我們本來就是把它當作首都生活圈\n121971\t123832\t謝謝院長那我想請問一個事情就是TPASS上路之後當然是成效蠻好的\n150726\t157029\t但是這個財源來講嚴格來說本席也認為說這個TPAS1200那這個會延續到多久?現在我們的預算我們當然是希望能夠繼續編下去那當然這個預算的編列還需要送到大院來審查但是現在的預算是到114年\n180618\t181759\t好,我請部長回答你。\n197379\t226222\t跟委員報告目前基隆捷運還品跟中規都合訂了所以現在是在新北市政府他會來做興建的工作那目前是在民國123年完工目前的目標年是123年123年嗎?對民國123年那請問我認為是可能馬上通車馬上就會完工通車馬上出問題為什麼?因為我們知道說現在基隆捷運\n227633\t252754\t從八堵到南港就要33分鐘。也就是說我們如果現行的台鐵鞋區間車只要23分鐘到24分鐘目前的自強號只要14到17分鐘的時候當通車的那一刻也就是表示那是空車的那一刻因為從基隆到台北上班的人我很難想像說他們會願意搭一個比較便捷如果一票\n253775\t256217\t我想大家都喜歡來爭取決議包括基隆也是一樣那最主要委員可能也很清楚\n282881\t306802\t解運的班次跟台鐵的班次是不一樣的。我請部長來詳細跟你回答。你如果注意看那個路線圖,它跟台鐵已經分離了。比如說你在五堵,基隆在五堵地方的服務很廣,所以它兩個的服務範圍已經有一些不一樣了。第二個就是院長所提的,解運的穩定性跟它的班次,\n307943\t336652\t雖然他速度不如台鐵但是他的服務的這個穩定性會很多人會喜歡去搭這個捷運所以想說在過去我們討論也希望說這個基隆捷運能夠帶動整個基隆沿線北部的這些發展那目前也有一些相關的計畫在進行所以他是不同的服務範圍有這個不同的目標他現在來進行基本上我個人我本人我本席認為不管怎麼樣捷運的\n337752\t366986\t前提不是為了都市發展而是為了交通運輸,為了通勤足額準備的對吧?都市發展應該很重要。都市發展很重要,但是如果Priority wise,以優先順序來講的話,應該是通勤為主再來才是都市發展。那如果最後的目標是希望軌道運輸,整體的軌道運輸可以提升的話,那就會變成是說假設從八堵到南港端都要花33分鐘,而從基隆到台北火車站的時間可能會比這個\n367546\t385694\t中國時間來得少很多的話以本席一個今天早上自己開車從基隆開自己開車從基隆來台北上班的人或以前從坐火車從基隆到台北來上班的人我會覺得說他們要趕上9點的那個班要趕上9點能夠順利打卡\n386774\t406568\t這個是對於未來做捷運會很辛苦的事情。我不知道部長有沒有這個...我跟各位報告以阪南縣來看,你說阪橋到台北有火車也有捷運,可是阪南縣的後端是服務包括這個相關的以前台鐵沒有服務到的地方。\n408509\t419093\t部長我直接問另外一個問題好了,請問一下基隆捷運最多可以做,如果全部1D1階段全部都可以做人的話,請問一下基隆捷運這一列車廂可以放幾個人?\n420787\t439601\t他一般沒有這樣,就是一小時大概五千人,可以運送五千人。五千人次還是五千人次?五千人次也可以。五千人有很多,因為院長每一句話我們現在每個人都在記錄,因為五千人次等於2500人是嗎?今天有個好處,比如說班次縮短一半,就變成一萬人。\n441042\t465009\t我現在要問的問題是在於說請問這一列列車我剛剛有講一列列車多少人?應該是300人。那請問台鐵呢?台鐵像普洋馬那些是500多人。那請問你知道基隆市每天搭乘火車到台北上班的人有多少人?大概應該是有6萬人。\n467642\t473790\t錯,只有一萬五千人,人不是人次是人,你是來回算,我們應該要把這個數字更精準。總數十萬啦,鐵路大概六萬。\n480295\t501981\t部長,我認為您對數字的掌握其實很有問題,真的很有問題。不過我想請問說,如果假設一萬五千人,你剛剛說是三、四百人一列列車,那麼你如何在七點到九點之間能夠順利的把一萬五千人從基隆到台北運送呢?\n503761\t527642\t你認為協議做得到嗎?車廂的話現在一列414人啊這是昨天出來的報告上面寫的啊33分鐘也是昨天出來中國報告上面寫的啊那我只想問你這報告是真的還假的順便我也想問其他的我覺得都是很弔詭的事情那我想請問說我們想從這邊這個資料來看一下好了\n531786\t535410\t這是你們自己通過文部報告提出來的資料嗎?是,來,謝謝這是什麼東西?\n545658\t562298\t本席是基隆市市民那對於基隆市的財務本席相當關心那我想請問一下以現行台鐵的運量來為參考是否以後可以支撐整個基隆捷運的運作因為我們要知道一件事情喔\n564774\t575882\t現在基隆捷運第一段完工的點是在巴堵巴堵附近有多少人願意去搭捷運還是直接開車到台北這件事情請部長列入考量\n576977\t579339\t請問一下如果說在這個單就營運成本跟預期收益的推估之後就基隆地區\n598433\t598713\t我剛才報告齁\n614053\t635401\t如果在公共運輸你只講能不能自負盈虧,那很多公共運輸都做不下去。我們唯一能做的就是說我開了班次以後我要透過土地開發來挹注他的收入。現在目前是這樣。現在就是說如果這個效益,土地開發不做效益一定很差。部長我還有另外一個最現實的問題要問。\n637322\t642887\t我們現在基隆市政府有提出一個巴獨到基隆火車站的這個申請經費大概一千多萬我們會給予協助\n655317\t669882\t這個部分就留給基隆市政府看他未來要往哪邊走。往安樂區或是往這個重症區。本席對於你說要給予協助、給予肯定。不過本席更希望說我們行政院可以給基隆市多一點幫忙。\n671735\t699564\t因為這一個規劃基本上我如果我記得沒有錯話林佑昌林部長也在場當初是國家海洋門戶計畫剛開始是一毛錢都不用付現在好行政院改朝換代之後說使用者付費那基隆人也就認了但是這條基隆捷運本席認為對於都市發展是有幫助的但對於通勤運輸對於這些10萬通勤族幫助非常的小\n700644\t718095\t這是本席要先把這件事講清楚的地方。再來通勤人數10萬大軍,天天台北基隆兩邊跑。這就是基隆人的困境。部長我剛剛跟你講的是15000人,本來是以前高峰的時候是到17000人的。\n722670\t740910\t總數10萬,我剛才講10萬嘛。可是10萬是總數,1萬7是1萬5,現在掉到1萬5,因為快捷公車掉到1萬5,甚至到1萬3。這個是基隆人天天往臺北跑的困境。那部長請問你知道說天天開車的人有多少,天天做國道科運的人有多少嗎?\n743533\t769028\t數字齁,我據我當時的了解是大概有5萬啦齁,5萬是這一個...所以說沒有錯,這樣加起來5萬人開車,其他4萬人搭國道客運。這也就是為什麼本席特地要拿出來這個講。因為我們國道客運現在我們知道缺工缺班次,天天你看到可憐的基隆人在臺北的街頭等車,本席陪他們等了5年。\n771072\t795892\t在這種天氣今天晚上還是有人在外面等車而現在基隆人已經可憐到說我們在高速公路上面塞著我們還可以勉強忍受但是你在路邊站著沒有車子來的時候那個怨氣是直接往本席跟政府上面發的所以說為什麼本席在一上任之後我今天在交通委員會我就是要針對國道客運的事情來討個說法\n799670\t827847\t白天來臺北的班班客滿這個是1802這條路線1802這條路線是目前基隆市十大路線之一排名第七的路線他是從基隆到三重我們可以清楚的看到白天上班的時間從基隆到臺北班班客滿晚上下班時間從臺北到基隆班班客滿更直接的班聚來講這是基隆人的需求\n829984\t854867\t這就是我們看到基隆人的需求,搬去尖峰時段跟離峰時段差非常的遠,但是對於客運業者來講其實是很辛苦的。為什麼這樣說?因為客運業者不管在什麼時候,全國的客運業者都是一樣的運價補助。也就是說全國都是一樣的時候,基隆到台北,部長請問你知道,部長或者院長,院長請問你知道基隆到台北到底幾公里嗎?\n857121\t873461\t二十五公里。同樣的問題也發生在桃園。剛剛劉許廷、劉委員也講到,他們的國道科研也出一樣問題。為什麼?因為從桃園到台北三十五公里。可是如果你只給這樣的補助,這些業者當然是入不敷出啊。更何況說,\n875114\t876396\t國道客運的票價他們最近有提進來我剛才有回答過\n891875\t913087\t部長,我可以直接跟你講,對基隆、對桃園不會有幫助的。葛瑪蘭還是一樣遭倒,國光還是一樣向你訴苦。為什麼?因為很簡單的,還是里程書的問題。你的新的票價條是給全國的,對於短程的我們並沒有特別去尊重。\n913868\t940820\t根本是說基隆人、桃園人要離鄉背井來臺北上班的時候,他一定要做國道公車為了要省錢,為了要讓自己方便,因為不是每個人都有能力開車。院長,不是每個人都有失業,不是每個人都有能力開車,但是不管怎麼樣,他們如果在臺北上班,因為基隆沒有工作機會,基隆工作機會是少的,基隆港沒落之後基隆港工作機會少的,這是我下一個要講的議題。\n941420\t948601\t而造成說他們必須來台北上班的時候他們就要想說我要怎麼樣9點整能夠打卡\n950165\t973226\t那部長知道要9點整從基隆發車能夠打卡到臺北幾點要出門嗎?6點半,如果自己不開車的話,因為你在基隆就要等車啊,不是晚上你在臺北的路口等車,白天你也在基隆的路口等車,中間還要再塞3、45分鐘到1個小時的車,而且你到臺北之後,你不是直接到你的公司門口,你還要再轉車,轉3、4下。\n977006\t992086\t部長也好,院長也好,你們覺得這樣的人生會是幸福的嗎?這樣的感覺會是好的嗎?所以我想整個交通的規劃很重要的就是怎麼樣快捷而且合理。那剛才我們\n992987\t1008961\t我講通則啦齁那你現在講的這一個捷運很重要然後呢國道的客運也很重要那未來在長遠來看我們需要有一個捷運讓大家不必要等很久就可以搭到車而且捷運的體系\n1009461\t1033304\t在新北市、臺北市我們都可以看得到還有桃園市都是很方便的。國道的部分你剛才講到的應該檢討這一個相關的...院長不好意思讓我打斷我認同你的講法捷運到基隆是好事但是在好事10年之後才能到的時候而且10年之後我們現在只到八堵\n1034258\t1035239\t不好意思 讓我講很重要的一句話\n1057432\t1057872\t委員 我跟你報告\n1075138\t1097831\t談國道,因為國道走高速公路不穩定,半次。所以一般像基隆是全國公共運輸使用率第二高的城市,所以我們現在才有基隆捷運。就是說當你培養一陣子一定要捷運。部長,你給他講話可能比較大聲。那個八堵到基隆也不是不做,當時討論就是拆遷的課題沒辦法克服。\n1099431\t1116437\t部長,我覺得如果比較務實一點,你講到基隆捷運到八堵,我希望規劃能夠早早一點實施,我希望我在永生之年我看得到基隆捷運進基隆市區,但是比較現實的就是說你的feeder system要不要趕快做一做,也就是八堵站旁邊,\n1117597\t1118257\t這個我們跟地方一起來討論\n1136927\t1157580\t這個是已經有客源的,已經習慣的。如果未來捷運要到基隆要讓他們能夠活得下去,要使用率要高,那R線公車不能廢。現在R線公車天天基隆市政府在那邊撐著,這不是正確的方法。這是當初台鐵捷運化出來的時候的輔助公車。現在如果捷運真的要到基隆,為什麼R線公車中央不能幫忙?\n1158953\t1180621\t我想那個我還有另外一個更大的議題我先把這個議題講完請你好好去修改所謂的運輸業管理規則因為老實講25公里35公里就用國道客運來計算這一點根本一點都不公平業者也辛苦我們搭車的人也辛苦\n1181883\t1196116\t而且離峰跟尖峰不到50公里的國道客運這基本上在計算方面來講是個笑話而且最現實的離峰的時候如果沒有人坐不要讓司機累死\n1196917\t1213332\t不要讓司機開空車因為我們知道勞基法跟國道客運法一個8小時一個10小時大家都是幫忙勞基法但是我們現在基隆缺司機全台灣都缺司機基隆更缺這點請部長回去看一下運輸業管理規則是否能夠修正\n1214693\t1232156\t公共運輸的離婚跟監控這個問題都普遍也很少說離婚就不開那離婚有人要搭,重點是五個人尤其沒有在上班的這些老人家所以也沒辦法說離婚都不開啦所以一般都會去搭配監控開的比較多離婚開的比較少\n1233708\t1254143\t我是希望你們能做出例外,因為老實講這個問題不是只有基隆有,我剛剛講過,這問題不是只有基隆有,桃園也有。葛馬蘭客運兩條線要收了,許廷很辛苦的把他救回來,但是這樣事情其實不應該讓他發生。我們來維持一個服務品質,我們不會確保他中斷。我想說如果相關要檢討我們來討論。\n1256598\t1265467\t院長,您有聽過美國一個報導說,假設你通勤的時間超過3個小時,你的生活品質、你的家庭關係就會瀕臨破裂嗎?\n1268041\t1284454\t我沒有聽過這樣的說法,但是我在美國住過滿堂一段時間。其實美國離婚率最高的地方叫做矽谷,因為他們通勤的時間,如果用通勤的話,他們通勤時間超過5個小時。很多人因為矽谷的薪水高所以跑去矽谷。\n1286676\t1314355\t同樣狀況其實發生也在北北基陶尤其是在基隆跟臺北之間臺北市把很多基隆的精華人才吸到臺北市但是通勤的狀況導致說基隆人越來越不快樂我們基隆有三高失業率高離婚率高跟自殺率最高而這個數據我沒看過了對好而我為什麼要這樣講呢其實根本上來講是因為失業率\n1315632\t1332738\t基隆以前是40年前時間過很快40年前1984年基隆是全世界十大海港那時候基隆在十大海港排名很高將近第七最高的時候1987年排名第七那是基隆港最高的時候後來我們知道貨運轉型再加上WTO再加上港\n1333078\t1333098\t﹚廣告\n1350959\t1363896\t很多年長者還是留在基隆,基隆的高齡化也是全國名列前茅的,但是他們轉型不容易,所以當失業率高、離婚率也高的時候,\n1366246\t1392540\t基隆港的90%以上的收入都來自貨運商港並不是大家想的郵輪港或郵輪母港本席以前在港務公司待過將近5年的時間本席曾經代表台灣代表港務公司去外面拉過航線過來本席很清楚郵輪不會賺錢郵輪提高工作機會在基隆是很困難的事情因為基隆沒有腹地\n1393200\t1397916\t由於論壇需要有人上下船之外,還要有補給跟修船的功能。\n1400322\t1423818\t您認同這句話嗎?總統當選的賴清德說,他也說他是基隆子弟,他說未來要把整個基隆港變成郵輪港。我想這是部分的商港要轉為郵輪港。那這個郵輪確實在全世界現在在海洋航運上是扮演一個蠻重要的角色。院長我必須跟您談這個事情,我願意花多一點時間。這是他在\n1424378\t1449865\t二十二月二十四日親口在媒體上講的他希望把所有目前看起來這句話的解說是他希望把所有的貨運都移到台北港那以海運的知識來講基隆港比台北港好太多了因為台北港你只要把六十四號觀音山那個隧道一出問題所有的貨都出不去進不來根文報告目前是這樣不好意思讓我講完為什麼要講完的原因是因為\n1452630\t1475699\t過去幾年因為疫情我們不知道下一次什麼時候疫情會來其實疫情就跟戰爭一樣隨時可能會發生那疫情也好戰爭也好一發生的時候觀光業是最倒楣的那郵輪基本上來講是個高檔的觀光業那請問一下如果郵輪港真的再計容出事我們行政院我們中央政府有任何補救措施嗎\n1476789\t1476969\t黃部長,很多港\n1506840\t1513170\t港運前輩跟我提過說您是這幾任部長裡面算比較負責比較專業的部長那我想請問你\n1514758\t1537909\t基隆捷運到基隆經過的北五堵經過的五堵北五堵這些貨櫃倉儲未來是不是會變成捷運用地變成商業用地好再來你說這13000人那最後面去到台北港去因為沒有附地基本上基隆西岸你說貨都在西岸對吧西岸就是中山區那邊如果不管是東岸還是西岸的貨如果後面沒有後廠的話請問這個港這個貨運怎麼做啊\n1542051\t1559004\t他現在也沒有全部轉移可是未來很有可能轉移所以未來我要知道新政府未來對金融的規劃啊現在就是郵輪跟貨就是這個客戶都兼顧了目前是兼顧我剛剛講說你們認不認同下一任總統賴新德賴總統當選人的說法他應該是說要加強郵輪的這個功能如果說\n1568832\t1582889\t假設他的計畫真的把臺北港變成全北部第一大港,那我可以很負責的跟院長跟部長跟所有內閣報告,基隆市的交通絕對會完蛋,基隆市一定會造反。\n1584212\t1586993\t剛才講過這個發展成郵輪是在東岸的部分那西岸的部分還實際上是香港的部分這剛才已經講過了\n1609117\t1636918\t委員這一個整個全體的規劃呢我想交通部都有自己的看法當然委員你的意見很寶貴我們也願意來聆聽你的意見我們看看你的意見有什麼建議想一想七龍港從全球第七大港掉到現在全球排名可能的150名之外為什麼因為船隻巨大化再加上說我們沒有腹地我們真的沒有腹地唯一的腹地就是在北吳都那邊的貨櫃集散站那邊的倉儲用地\n1638060\t1650460\t現在因為基隆捷運要把這些倉促用力拿掉,然後你跟我講說你們來規劃,那我很想知道說你們未來規劃怎麼樣幫基隆商港留下來,因為基隆商港如果這個功能一旦不在,一萬三千人馬上上國道。\n1651381\t1668063\t市長跟委員現在都在轉型有時候就是因為全國裡面就是基隆的遊輪母港是所有全世界的這些遊艇業者最喜歡來的一個地方嘛那因應這個我們才做西岸跟東岸的禮運中心我知道那個委員你也看到現在\n1670825\t1689537\t所以兼顧這件事我在跟委員一定是兼顧不可能把後運我希望部長您講這句話現在媒體都在看這句話是有會議記錄的因為這是代表基隆的一萬三千人雖然你們這是一萬三千個家庭喔這是一萬三千個家庭的生計\n1692768\t1710722\t這是我基隆13000的家庭生計請記得這句話我再強調一次我們把基隆港定位為北部海運貨物的進出港以及國際郵輪的母港這是我們的定義這是在我們的國際商港未來發展及競爭的話裡面陳院長您剛剛講這些話這是在110年10月12號未來下一個執政團隊會買單\n1720555\t1728063\t委員因為你是新的委員我再請問一件事情我再跟你講111到115年的計畫就是剛才我講的啦不好意思我現在直接問一個最直接的事情基隆關全國57%的關稅是在基隆關\n1742037\t1762535\t但是基隆港說真的基隆市說真的財政很困難基隆市的所有的公共建設基隆市的所有公共基隆市的空屋基隆市很多方面公共建設不變嚴格講起來都是基隆港帶來的沒有錯有港才有市但是我們現在基隆市36萬人全體在為了基隆港在去做我們做出犧牲\n1764222\t1790534\t我想請問這種以前有一句話叫Taxation without representation有付稅但是沒有代表權或Taxation without benefit你要我的稅我們幫國家犧牲這麼多但是我們在這港口的城市居民沒有得到合理的對待那我想請問未來的關稅是不是可以某種程度上比例而且嚴格講起來我也必須講一句實話\n1791502\t1819545\t基隆、台中、台北、新北還有高雄都自詡是海洋城市我們台灣自詡是海洋國家但是我們對港口旁邊都市的建造一點都沒有重視新北、高雄、台中是剛好是六都不是因為說我們台灣中央政府對他們這些港都、港部城市有任何的重視所以我認為說在未來不合理的關稅分配至少要分劃給當地的城市\n1823682\t1851942\t跟委員說明一下關稅的部分那是進入博庫來統籌分配那中央對地方有一個中央統籌分配稅款這裡面有一個指標就是那個營業額那營業額如果這個還商港在這個城市那他相對的工商活動會比較活潑那他的營業額的高那對於中央稅款的分配也可以有所回饋另外在主計總署的一般的補助款裡面對於商港城市也有加權的一個加重的\n1859158\t1863108\t好謝謝林委員沛祥的質詢謝謝陳院長的備詢謝謝接下來我們請登記第24號李委員\n","txt":"請直接發言,沒問題。麥克風已經開了。院長,請陳建仁院長備詢。好,麻煩請陳院長備詢。特別跟林委員報告,三個麥克風都可以用。對。林委員長,恭喜你當選立委。院長謝謝。我們是行政院院長,\n您是官 我是民 我是民代所以今天不管如何我希望有個善意的質詢跟回應\n為什麼先把北北基的這個議題拿出來講因為我記得沒有錯的話賴清德總統當選人在選舉的時候曾經提出來的桃竹苗大細股一年200億的計畫那我就很想知道說那對於我們北北基桃目前的規劃是什麼畢竟來講北北基桃加起來可能超過1000萬人口也是目前我們全國最大人口區\n我想北北寄討我們本來就是把它當作首都生活圈\n謝謝院長那我想請問一個事情就是TPASS上路之後當然是成效蠻好的\n但是這個財源來講嚴格來說本席也認為說這個TPAS1200那這個會延續到多久?現在我們的預算我們當然是希望能夠繼續編下去那當然這個預算的編列還需要送到大院來審查但是現在的預算是到114年\n好,我請部長回答你。\n跟委員報告目前基隆捷運還品跟中規都合訂了所以現在是在新北市政府他會來做興建的工作那目前是在民國123年完工目前的目標年是123年123年嗎?對民國123年那請問我認為是可能馬上通車馬上就會完工通車馬上出問題為什麼?因為我們知道說現在基隆捷運\n從八堵到南港就要33分鐘。也就是說我們如果現行的台鐵鞋區間車只要23分鐘到24分鐘目前的自強號只要14到17分鐘的時候當通車的那一刻也就是表示那是空車的那一刻因為從基隆到台北上班的人我很難想像說他們會願意搭一個比較便捷如果一票\n我想大家都喜歡來爭取決議包括基隆也是一樣那最主要委員可能也很清楚\n解運的班次跟台鐵的班次是不一樣的。我請部長來詳細跟你回答。你如果注意看那個路線圖,它跟台鐵已經分離了。比如說你在五堵,基隆在五堵地方的服務很廣,所以它兩個的服務範圍已經有一些不一樣了。第二個就是院長所提的,解運的穩定性跟它的班次,\n雖然他速度不如台鐵但是他的服務的這個穩定性會很多人會喜歡去搭這個捷運所以想說在過去我們討論也希望說這個基隆捷運能夠帶動整個基隆沿線北部的這些發展那目前也有一些相關的計畫在進行所以他是不同的服務範圍有這個不同的目標他現在來進行基本上我個人我本人我本席認為不管怎麼樣捷運的\n前提不是為了都市發展而是為了交通運輸,為了通勤足額準備的對吧?都市發展應該很重要。都市發展很重要,但是如果Priority wise,以優先順序來講的話,應該是通勤為主再來才是都市發展。那如果最後的目標是希望軌道運輸,整體的軌道運輸可以提升的話,那就會變成是說假設從八堵到南港端都要花33分鐘,而從基隆到台北火車站的時間可能會比這個\n中國時間來得少很多的話以本席一個今天早上自己開車從基隆開自己開車從基隆來台北上班的人或以前從坐火車從基隆到台北來上班的人我會覺得說他們要趕上9點的那個班要趕上9點能夠順利打卡\n這個是對於未來做捷運會很辛苦的事情。我不知道部長有沒有這個...我跟各位報告以阪南縣來看,你說阪橋到台北有火車也有捷運,可是阪南縣的後端是服務包括這個相關的以前台鐵沒有服務到的地方。\n部長我直接問另外一個問題好了,請問一下基隆捷運最多可以做,如果全部1D1階段全部都可以做人的話,請問一下基隆捷運這一列車廂可以放幾個人?\n他一般沒有這樣,就是一小時大概五千人,可以運送五千人。五千人次還是五千人次?五千人次也可以。五千人有很多,因為院長每一句話我們現在每個人都在記錄,因為五千人次等於2500人是嗎?今天有個好處,比如說班次縮短一半,就變成一萬人。\n我現在要問的問題是在於說請問這一列列車我剛剛有講一列列車多少人?應該是300人。那請問台鐵呢?台鐵像普洋馬那些是500多人。那請問你知道基隆市每天搭乘火車到台北上班的人有多少人?大概應該是有6萬人。\n錯,只有一萬五千人,人不是人次是人,你是來回算,我們應該要把這個數字更精準。總數十萬啦,鐵路大概六萬。\n部長,我認為您對數字的掌握其實很有問題,真的很有問題。不過我想請問說,如果假設一萬五千人,你剛剛說是三、四百人一列列車,那麼你如何在七點到九點之間能夠順利的把一萬五千人從基隆到台北運送呢?\n你認為協議做得到嗎?車廂的話現在一列414人啊這是昨天出來的報告上面寫的啊33分鐘也是昨天出來中國報告上面寫的啊那我只想問你這報告是真的還假的順便我也想問其他的我覺得都是很弔詭的事情那我想請問說我們想從這邊這個資料來看一下好了\n這是你們自己通過文部報告提出來的資料嗎?是,來,謝謝這是什麼東西?\n本席是基隆市市民那對於基隆市的財務本席相當關心那我想請問一下以現行台鐵的運量來為參考是否以後可以支撐整個基隆捷運的運作因為我們要知道一件事情喔\n現在基隆捷運第一段完工的點是在巴堵巴堵附近有多少人願意去搭捷運還是直接開車到台北這件事情請部長列入考量\n請問一下如果說在這個單就營運成本跟預期收益的推估之後就基隆地區\n我剛才報告齁\n如果在公共運輸你只講能不能自負盈虧,那很多公共運輸都做不下去。我們唯一能做的就是說我開了班次以後我要透過土地開發來挹注他的收入。現在目前是這樣。現在就是說如果這個效益,土地開發不做效益一定很差。部長我還有另外一個最現實的問題要問。\n我們現在基隆市政府有提出一個巴獨到基隆火車站的這個申請經費大概一千多萬我們會給予協助\n這個部分就留給基隆市政府看他未來要往哪邊走。往安樂區或是往這個重症區。本席對於你說要給予協助、給予肯定。不過本席更希望說我們行政院可以給基隆市多一點幫忙。\n因為這一個規劃基本上我如果我記得沒有錯話林佑昌林部長也在場當初是國家海洋門戶計畫剛開始是一毛錢都不用付現在好行政院改朝換代之後說使用者付費那基隆人也就認了但是這條基隆捷運本席認為對於都市發展是有幫助的但對於通勤運輸對於這些10萬通勤族幫助非常的小\n這是本席要先把這件事講清楚的地方。再來通勤人數10萬大軍,天天台北基隆兩邊跑。這就是基隆人的困境。部長我剛剛跟你講的是15000人,本來是以前高峰的時候是到17000人的。\n總數10萬,我剛才講10萬嘛。可是10萬是總數,1萬7是1萬5,現在掉到1萬5,因為快捷公車掉到1萬5,甚至到1萬3。這個是基隆人天天往臺北跑的困境。那部長請問你知道說天天開車的人有多少,天天做國道科運的人有多少嗎?\n數字齁,我據我當時的了解是大概有5萬啦齁,5萬是這一個...所以說沒有錯,這樣加起來5萬人開車,其他4萬人搭國道客運。這也就是為什麼本席特地要拿出來這個講。因為我們國道客運現在我們知道缺工缺班次,天天你看到可憐的基隆人在臺北的街頭等車,本席陪他們等了5年。\n在這種天氣今天晚上還是有人在外面等車而現在基隆人已經可憐到說我們在高速公路上面塞著我們還可以勉強忍受但是你在路邊站著沒有車子來的時候那個怨氣是直接往本席跟政府上面發的所以說為什麼本席在一上任之後我今天在交通委員會我就是要針對國道客運的事情來討個說法\n白天來臺北的班班客滿這個是1802這條路線1802這條路線是目前基隆市十大路線之一排名第七的路線他是從基隆到三重我們可以清楚的看到白天上班的時間從基隆到臺北班班客滿晚上下班時間從臺北到基隆班班客滿更直接的班聚來講這是基隆人的需求\n這就是我們看到基隆人的需求,搬去尖峰時段跟離峰時段差非常的遠,但是對於客運業者來講其實是很辛苦的。為什麼這樣說?因為客運業者不管在什麼時候,全國的客運業者都是一樣的運價補助。也就是說全國都是一樣的時候,基隆到台北,部長請問你知道,部長或者院長,院長請問你知道基隆到台北到底幾公里嗎?\n二十五公里。同樣的問題也發生在桃園。剛剛劉許廷、劉委員也講到,他們的國道科研也出一樣問題。為什麼?因為從桃園到台北三十五公里。可是如果你只給這樣的補助,這些業者當然是入不敷出啊。更何況說,\n國道客運的票價他們最近有提進來我剛才有回答過\n部長,我可以直接跟你講,對基隆、對桃園不會有幫助的。葛瑪蘭還是一樣遭倒,國光還是一樣向你訴苦。為什麼?因為很簡單的,還是里程書的問題。你的新的票價條是給全國的,對於短程的我們並沒有特別去尊重。\n根本是說基隆人、桃園人要離鄉背井來臺北上班的時候,他一定要做國道公車為了要省錢,為了要讓自己方便,因為不是每個人都有能力開車。院長,不是每個人都有失業,不是每個人都有能力開車,但是不管怎麼樣,他們如果在臺北上班,因為基隆沒有工作機會,基隆工作機會是少的,基隆港沒落之後基隆港工作機會少的,這是我下一個要講的議題。\n而造成說他們必須來台北上班的時候他們就要想說我要怎麼樣9點整能夠打卡\n那部長知道要9點整從基隆發車能夠打卡到臺北幾點要出門嗎?6點半,如果自己不開車的話,因為你在基隆就要等車啊,不是晚上你在臺北的路口等車,白天你也在基隆的路口等車,中間還要再塞3、45分鐘到1個小時的車,而且你到臺北之後,你不是直接到你的公司門口,你還要再轉車,轉3、4下。\n部長也好,院長也好,你們覺得這樣的人生會是幸福的嗎?這樣的感覺會是好的嗎?所以我想整個交通的規劃很重要的就是怎麼樣快捷而且合理。那剛才我們\n我講通則啦齁那你現在講的這一個捷運很重要然後呢國道的客運也很重要那未來在長遠來看我們需要有一個捷運讓大家不必要等很久就可以搭到車而且捷運的體系\n在新北市、臺北市我們都可以看得到還有桃園市都是很方便的。國道的部分你剛才講到的應該檢討這一個相關的...院長不好意思讓我打斷我認同你的講法捷運到基隆是好事但是在好事10年之後才能到的時候而且10年之後我們現在只到八堵\n不好意思 讓我講很重要的一句話\n委員 我跟你報告\n談國道,因為國道走高速公路不穩定,半次。所以一般像基隆是全國公共運輸使用率第二高的城市,所以我們現在才有基隆捷運。就是說當你培養一陣子一定要捷運。部長,你給他講話可能比較大聲。那個八堵到基隆也不是不做,當時討論就是拆遷的課題沒辦法克服。\n部長,我覺得如果比較務實一點,你講到基隆捷運到八堵,我希望規劃能夠早早一點實施,我希望我在永生之年我看得到基隆捷運進基隆市區,但是比較現實的就是說你的feeder system要不要趕快做一做,也就是八堵站旁邊,\n這個我們跟地方一起來討論\n這個是已經有客源的,已經習慣的。如果未來捷運要到基隆要讓他們能夠活得下去,要使用率要高,那R線公車不能廢。現在R線公車天天基隆市政府在那邊撐著,這不是正確的方法。這是當初台鐵捷運化出來的時候的輔助公車。現在如果捷運真的要到基隆,為什麼R線公車中央不能幫忙?\n我想那個我還有另外一個更大的議題我先把這個議題講完請你好好去修改所謂的運輸業管理規則因為老實講25公里35公里就用國道客運來計算這一點根本一點都不公平業者也辛苦我們搭車的人也辛苦\n而且離峰跟尖峰不到50公里的國道客運這基本上在計算方面來講是個笑話而且最現實的離峰的時候如果沒有人坐不要讓司機累死\n不要讓司機開空車因為我們知道勞基法跟國道客運法一個8小時一個10小時大家都是幫忙勞基法但是我們現在基隆缺司機全台灣都缺司機基隆更缺這點請部長回去看一下運輸業管理規則是否能夠修正\n公共運輸的離婚跟監控這個問題都普遍也很少說離婚就不開那離婚有人要搭,重點是五個人尤其沒有在上班的這些老人家所以也沒辦法說離婚都不開啦所以一般都會去搭配監控開的比較多離婚開的比較少\n我是希望你們能做出例外,因為老實講這個問題不是只有基隆有,我剛剛講過,這問題不是只有基隆有,桃園也有。葛馬蘭客運兩條線要收了,許廷很辛苦的把他救回來,但是這樣事情其實不應該讓他發生。我們來維持一個服務品質,我們不會確保他中斷。我想說如果相關要檢討我們來討論。\n院長,您有聽過美國一個報導說,假設你通勤的時間超過3個小時,你的生活品質、你的家庭關係就會瀕臨破裂嗎?\n我沒有聽過這樣的說法,但是我在美國住過滿堂一段時間。其實美國離婚率最高的地方叫做矽谷,因為他們通勤的時間,如果用通勤的話,他們通勤時間超過5個小時。很多人因為矽谷的薪水高所以跑去矽谷。\n同樣狀況其實發生也在北北基陶尤其是在基隆跟臺北之間臺北市把很多基隆的精華人才吸到臺北市但是通勤的狀況導致說基隆人越來越不快樂我們基隆有三高失業率高離婚率高跟自殺率最高而這個數據我沒看過了對好而我為什麼要這樣講呢其實根本上來講是因為失業率\n基隆以前是40年前時間過很快40年前1984年基隆是全世界十大海港那時候基隆在十大海港排名很高將近第七最高的時候1987年排名第七那是基隆港最高的時候後來我們知道貨運轉型再加上WTO再加上港\n﹚廣告\n很多年長者還是留在基隆,基隆的高齡化也是全國名列前茅的,但是他們轉型不容易,所以當失業率高、離婚率也高的時候,\n基隆港的90%以上的收入都來自貨運商港並不是大家想的郵輪港或郵輪母港本席以前在港務公司待過將近5年的時間本席曾經代表台灣代表港務公司去外面拉過航線過來本席很清楚郵輪不會賺錢郵輪提高工作機會在基隆是很困難的事情因為基隆沒有腹地\n由於論壇需要有人上下船之外,還要有補給跟修船的功能。\n您認同這句話嗎?總統當選的賴清德說,他也說他是基隆子弟,他說未來要把整個基隆港變成郵輪港。我想這是部分的商港要轉為郵輪港。那這個郵輪確實在全世界現在在海洋航運上是扮演一個蠻重要的角色。院長我必須跟您談這個事情,我願意花多一點時間。這是他在\n二十二月二十四日親口在媒體上講的他希望把所有目前看起來這句話的解說是他希望把所有的貨運都移到台北港那以海運的知識來講基隆港比台北港好太多了因為台北港你只要把六十四號觀音山那個隧道一出問題所有的貨都出不去進不來根文報告目前是這樣不好意思讓我講完為什麼要講完的原因是因為\n過去幾年因為疫情我們不知道下一次什麼時候疫情會來其實疫情就跟戰爭一樣隨時可能會發生那疫情也好戰爭也好一發生的時候觀光業是最倒楣的那郵輪基本上來講是個高檔的觀光業那請問一下如果郵輪港真的再計容出事我們行政院我們中央政府有任何補救措施嗎\n黃部長,很多港\n港運前輩跟我提過說您是這幾任部長裡面算比較負責比較專業的部長那我想請問你\n基隆捷運到基隆經過的北五堵經過的五堵北五堵這些貨櫃倉儲未來是不是會變成捷運用地變成商業用地好再來你說這13000人那最後面去到台北港去因為沒有附地基本上基隆西岸你說貨都在西岸對吧西岸就是中山區那邊如果不管是東岸還是西岸的貨如果後面沒有後廠的話請問這個港這個貨運怎麼做啊\n他現在也沒有全部轉移可是未來很有可能轉移所以未來我要知道新政府未來對金融的規劃啊現在就是郵輪跟貨就是這個客戶都兼顧了目前是兼顧我剛剛講說你們認不認同下一任總統賴新德賴總統當選人的說法他應該是說要加強郵輪的這個功能如果說\n假設他的計畫真的把臺北港變成全北部第一大港,那我可以很負責的跟院長跟部長跟所有內閣報告,基隆市的交通絕對會完蛋,基隆市一定會造反。\n剛才講過這個發展成郵輪是在東岸的部分那西岸的部分還實際上是香港的部分這剛才已經講過了\n委員這一個整個全體的規劃呢我想交通部都有自己的看法當然委員你的意見很寶貴我們也願意來聆聽你的意見我們看看你的意見有什麼建議想一想七龍港從全球第七大港掉到現在全球排名可能的150名之外為什麼因為船隻巨大化再加上說我們沒有腹地我們真的沒有腹地唯一的腹地就是在北吳都那邊的貨櫃集散站那邊的倉儲用地\n現在因為基隆捷運要把這些倉促用力拿掉,然後你跟我講說你們來規劃,那我很想知道說你們未來規劃怎麼樣幫基隆商港留下來,因為基隆商港如果這個功能一旦不在,一萬三千人馬上上國道。\n市長跟委員現在都在轉型有時候就是因為全國裡面就是基隆的遊輪母港是所有全世界的這些遊艇業者最喜歡來的一個地方嘛那因應這個我們才做西岸跟東岸的禮運中心我知道那個委員你也看到現在\n所以兼顧這件事我在跟委員一定是兼顧不可能把後運我希望部長您講這句話現在媒體都在看這句話是有會議記錄的因為這是代表基隆的一萬三千人雖然你們這是一萬三千個家庭喔這是一萬三千個家庭的生計\n這是我基隆13000的家庭生計請記得這句話我再強調一次我們把基隆港定位為北部海運貨物的進出港以及國際郵輪的母港這是我們的定義這是在我們的國際商港未來發展及競爭的話裡面陳院長您剛剛講這些話這是在110年10月12號未來下一個執政團隊會買單\n委員因為你是新的委員我再請問一件事情我再跟你講111到115年的計畫就是剛才我講的啦不好意思我現在直接問一個最直接的事情基隆關全國57%的關稅是在基隆關\n但是基隆港說真的基隆市說真的財政很困難基隆市的所有的公共建設基隆市的所有公共基隆市的空屋基隆市很多方面公共建設不變嚴格講起來都是基隆港帶來的沒有錯有港才有市但是我們現在基隆市36萬人全體在為了基隆港在去做我們做出犧牲\n我想請問這種以前有一句話叫Taxation without representation有付稅但是沒有代表權或Taxation without benefit你要我的稅我們幫國家犧牲這麼多但是我們在這港口的城市居民沒有得到合理的對待那我想請問未來的關稅是不是可以某種程度上比例而且嚴格講起來我也必須講一句實話\n基隆、台中、台北、新北還有高雄都自詡是海洋城市我們台灣自詡是海洋國家但是我們對港口旁邊都市的建造一點都沒有重視新北、高雄、台中是剛好是六都不是因為說我們台灣中央政府對他們這些港都、港部城市有任何的重視所以我認為說在未來不合理的關稅分配至少要分劃給當地的城市\n跟委員說明一下關稅的部分那是進入博庫來統籌分配那中央對地方有一個中央統籌分配稅款這裡面有一個指標就是那個營業額那營業額如果這個還商港在這個城市那他相對的工商活動會比較活潑那他的營業額的高那對於中央稅款的分配也可以有所回饋另外在主計總署的一般的補助款裡面對於商港城市也有加權的一個加重的\n好謝謝林委員沛祥的質詢謝謝陳院長的備詢謝謝接下來我們請登記第24號李委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:30.388 --> 00:53.561\n請直接發言,沒問題。麥克風已經開了。院長,請陳建仁院長備詢。好,麻煩請陳院長備詢。特別跟林委員報告,三個麥克風都可以用。對。林委員長,恭喜你當選立委。院長謝謝。我們是行政院院長,\n\n00:54.795 --> 00:58.697\n您是官我是民我是民代所以今天不管如何我希望有個善意的質詢跟回應\n\n01:18.121 --> 01:46.437\n為什麼先把北北基的這個議題拿出來講因為我記得沒有錯的話賴清德總統當選人在選舉的時候曾經提出來的桃竹苗大細股一年200億的計畫那我就很想知道說那對於我們北北基桃目前的規劃是什麼畢竟來講北北基桃加起來可能超過1000萬人口也是目前我們全國最大人口區\n\n01:47.297 --> 01:49.459\n我想北北寄討我們本來就是把它當作首都生活圈\n\n02:01.971 --> 02:03.832\n謝謝院長那我想請問一個事情就是TPASS上路之後當然是成效蠻好的\n\n02:30.726 --> 02:37.029\n但是這個財源來講嚴格來說本席也認為說這個TPAS1200那這個會延續到多久?現在我們的預算我們當然是希望能夠繼續編下去那當然這個預算的編列還需要送到大院來審查但是現在的預算是到114年\n\n03:00.618 --> 03:01.759\n好,我請部長回答你。\n\n03:17.379 --> 03:46.222\n跟委員報告目前基隆捷運還品跟中規都合訂了所以現在是在新北市政府他會來做興建的工作那目前是在民國123年完工目前的目標年是123年123年嗎?對民國123年那請問我認為是可能馬上通車馬上就會完工通車馬上出問題為什麼?因為我們知道說現在基隆捷運\n\n03:47.633 --> 04:12.754\n從八堵到南港就要33分鐘。也就是說我們如果現行的台鐵鞋區間車只要23分鐘到24分鐘目前的自強號只要14到17分鐘的時候當通車的那一刻也就是表示那是空車的那一刻因為從基隆到台北上班的人我很難想像說他們會願意搭一個比較便捷如果一票\n\n04:13.775 --> 04:16.217\n我想大家都喜歡來爭取決議包括基隆也是一樣那最主要委員可能也很清楚\n\n04:42.881 --> 05:06.802\n解運的班次跟台鐵的班次是不一樣的。我請部長來詳細跟你回答。你如果注意看那個路線圖,它跟台鐵已經分離了。比如說你在五堵,基隆在五堵地方的服務很廣,所以它兩個的服務範圍已經有一些不一樣了。第二個就是院長所提的,解運的穩定性跟它的班次,\n\n05:07.943 --> 05:36.652\n雖然他速度不如台鐵但是他的服務的這個穩定性會很多人會喜歡去搭這個捷運所以想說在過去我們討論也希望說這個基隆捷運能夠帶動整個基隆沿線北部的這些發展那目前也有一些相關的計畫在進行所以他是不同的服務範圍有這個不同的目標他現在來進行基本上我個人我本人我本席認為不管怎麼樣捷運的\n\n05:37.752 --> 06:06.986\n前提不是為了都市發展而是為了交通運輸,為了通勤足額準備的對吧?都市發展應該很重要。都市發展很重要,但是如果Prioritywise,以優先順序來講的話,應該是通勤為主再來才是都市發展。那如果最後的目標是希望軌道運輸,整體的軌道運輸可以提升的話,那就會變成是說假設從八堵到南港端都要花33分鐘,而從基隆到台北火車站的時間可能會比這個\n\n06:07.546 --> 06:25.694\n中國時間來得少很多的話以本席一個今天早上自己開車從基隆開自己開車從基隆來台北上班的人或以前從坐火車從基隆到台北來上班的人我會覺得說他們要趕上9點的那個班要趕上9點能夠順利打卡\n\n06:26.774 --> 06:46.568\n這個是對於未來做捷運會很辛苦的事情。我不知道部長有沒有這個...我跟各位報告以阪南縣來看,你說阪橋到台北有火車也有捷運,可是阪南縣的後端是服務包括這個相關的以前台鐵沒有服務到的地方。\n\n06:48.509 --> 06:59.093\n部長我直接問另外一個問題好了,請問一下基隆捷運最多可以做,如果全部1D1階段全部都可以做人的話,請問一下基隆捷運這一列車廂可以放幾個人?\n\n07:00.787 --> 07:19.601\n他一般沒有這樣,就是一小時大概五千人,可以運送五千人。五千人次還是五千人次?五千人次也可以。五千人有很多,因為院長每一句話我們現在每個人都在記錄,因為五千人次等於2500人是嗎?今天有個好處,比如說班次縮短一半,就變成一萬人。\n\n07:21.042 --> 07:45.009\n我現在要問的問題是在於說請問這一列列車我剛剛有講一列列車多少人?應該是300人。那請問台鐵呢?台鐵像普洋馬那些是500多人。那請問你知道基隆市每天搭乘火車到台北上班的人有多少人?大概應該是有6萬人。\n\n07:47.642 --> 07:53.790\n錯,只有一萬五千人,人不是人次是人,你是來回算,我們應該要把這個數字更精準。總數十萬啦,鐵路大概六萬。\n\n08:00.295 --> 08:21.981\n部長,我認為您對數字的掌握其實很有問題,真的很有問題。不過我想請問說,如果假設一萬五千人,你剛剛說是三、四百人一列列車,那麼你如何在七點到九點之間能夠順利的把一萬五千人從基隆到台北運送呢?\n\n08:23.761 --> 08:47.642\n你認為協議做得到嗎?車廂的話現在一列414人啊這是昨天出來的報告上面寫的啊33分鐘也是昨天出來中國報告上面寫的啊那我只想問你這報告是真的還假的順便我也想問其他的我覺得都是很弔詭的事情那我想請問說我們想從這邊這個資料來看一下好了\n\n08:51.786 --> 08:55.410\n這是你們自己通過文部報告提出來的資料嗎?是,來,謝謝這是什麼東西?\n\n09:05.658 --> 09:22.298\n本席是基隆市市民那對於基隆市的財務本席相當關心那我想請問一下以現行台鐵的運量來為參考是否以後可以支撐整個基隆捷運的運作因為我們要知道一件事情喔\n\n09:24.774 --> 09:35.882\n現在基隆捷運第一段完工的點是在巴堵巴堵附近有多少人願意去搭捷運還是直接開車到台北這件事情請部長列入考量\n\n09:36.977 --> 09:39.339\n請問一下如果說在這個單就營運成本跟預期收益的推估之後就基隆地區\n\n09:58.433 --> 09:58.713\n我剛才報告齁\n\n10:14.053 --> 10:35.401\n如果在公共運輸你只講能不能自負盈虧,那很多公共運輸都做不下去。我們唯一能做的就是說我開了班次以後我要透過土地開發來挹注他的收入。現在目前是這樣。現在就是說如果這個效益,土地開發不做效益一定很差。部長我還有另外一個最現實的問題要問。\n\n10:37.322 --> 10:42.887\n我們現在基隆市政府有提出一個巴獨到基隆火車站的這個申請經費大概一千多萬我們會給予協助\n\n10:55.317 --> 11:09.882\n這個部分就留給基隆市政府看他未來要往哪邊走。往安樂區或是往這個重症區。本席對於你說要給予協助、給予肯定。不過本席更希望說我們行政院可以給基隆市多一點幫忙。\n\n11:11.735 --> 11:39.564\n因為這一個規劃基本上我如果我記得沒有錯話林佑昌林部長也在場當初是國家海洋門戶計畫剛開始是一毛錢都不用付現在好行政院改朝換代之後說使用者付費那基隆人也就認了但是這條基隆捷運本席認為對於都市發展是有幫助的但對於通勤運輸對於這些10萬通勤族幫助非常的小\n\n11:40.644 --> 11:58.095\n這是本席要先把這件事講清楚的地方。再來通勤人數10萬大軍,天天台北基隆兩邊跑。這就是基隆人的困境。部長我剛剛跟你講的是15000人,本來是以前高峰的時候是到17000人的。\n\n12:02.670 --> 12:20.910\n總數10萬,我剛才講10萬嘛。可是10萬是總數,1萬7是1萬5,現在掉到1萬5,因為快捷公車掉到1萬5,甚至到1萬3。這個是基隆人天天往臺北跑的困境。那部長請問你知道說天天開車的人有多少,天天做國道科運的人有多少嗎?\n\n12:23.533 --> 12:49.028\n數字齁,我據我當時的了解是大概有5萬啦齁,5萬是這一個...所以說沒有錯,這樣加起來5萬人開車,其他4萬人搭國道客運。這也就是為什麼本席特地要拿出來這個講。因為我們國道客運現在我們知道缺工缺班次,天天你看到可憐的基隆人在臺北的街頭等車,本席陪他們等了5年。\n\n12:51.072 --> 13:15.892\n在這種天氣今天晚上還是有人在外面等車而現在基隆人已經可憐到說我們在高速公路上面塞著我們還可以勉強忍受但是你在路邊站著沒有車子來的時候那個怨氣是直接往本席跟政府上面發的所以說為什麼本席在一上任之後我今天在交通委員會我就是要針對國道客運的事情來討個說法\n\n13:19.670 --> 13:47.847\n白天來臺北的班班客滿這個是1802這條路線1802這條路線是目前基隆市十大路線之一排名第七的路線他是從基隆到三重我們可以清楚的看到白天上班的時間從基隆到臺北班班客滿晚上下班時間從臺北到基隆班班客滿更直接的班聚來講這是基隆人的需求\n\n13:49.984 --> 14:14.867\n這就是我們看到基隆人的需求,搬去尖峰時段跟離峰時段差非常的遠,但是對於客運業者來講其實是很辛苦的。為什麼這樣說?因為客運業者不管在什麼時候,全國的客運業者都是一樣的運價補助。也就是說全國都是一樣的時候,基隆到台北,部長請問你知道,部長或者院長,院長請問你知道基隆到台北到底幾公里嗎?\n\n14:17.121 --> 14:33.461\n二十五公里。同樣的問題也發生在桃園。剛剛劉許廷、劉委員也講到,他們的國道科研也出一樣問題。為什麼?因為從桃園到台北三十五公里。可是如果你只給這樣的補助,這些業者當然是入不敷出啊。更何況說,\n\n14:35.114 --> 14:36.396\n國道客運的票價他們最近有提進來我剛才有回答過\n\n14:51.875 --> 15:13.087\n部長,我可以直接跟你講,對基隆、對桃園不會有幫助的。葛瑪蘭還是一樣遭倒,國光還是一樣向你訴苦。為什麼?因為很簡單的,還是里程書的問題。你的新的票價條是給全國的,對於短程的我們並沒有特別去尊重。\n\n15:13.868 --> 15:40.820\n根本是說基隆人、桃園人要離鄉背井來臺北上班的時候,他一定要做國道公車為了要省錢,為了要讓自己方便,因為不是每個人都有能力開車。院長,不是每個人都有失業,不是每個人都有能力開車,但是不管怎麼樣,他們如果在臺北上班,因為基隆沒有工作機會,基隆工作機會是少的,基隆港沒落之後基隆港工作機會少的,這是我下一個要講的議題。\n\n15:41.420 --> 15:48.601\n而造成說他們必須來台北上班的時候他們就要想說我要怎麼樣9點整能夠打卡\n\n15:50.165 --> 16:13.226\n那部長知道要9點整從基隆發車能夠打卡到臺北幾點要出門嗎?6點半,如果自己不開車的話,因為你在基隆就要等車啊,不是晚上你在臺北的路口等車,白天你也在基隆的路口等車,中間還要再塞3、45分鐘到1個小時的車,而且你到臺北之後,你不是直接到你的公司門口,你還要再轉車,轉3、4下。\n\n16:17.006 --> 16:32.086\n部長也好,院長也好,你們覺得這樣的人生會是幸福的嗎?這樣的感覺會是好的嗎?所以我想整個交通的規劃很重要的就是怎麼樣快捷而且合理。那剛才我們\n\n16:32.987 --> 16:48.961\n我講通則啦齁那你現在講的這一個捷運很重要然後呢國道的客運也很重要那未來在長遠來看我們需要有一個捷運讓大家不必要等很久就可以搭到車而且捷運的體系\n\n16:49.461 --> 17:13.304\n在新北市、臺北市我們都可以看得到還有桃園市都是很方便的。國道的部分你剛才講到的應該檢討這一個相關的...院長不好意思讓我打斷我認同你的講法捷運到基隆是好事但是在好事10年之後才能到的時候而且10年之後我們現在只到八堵\n\n17:14.258 --> 17:15.239\n不好意思讓我講很重要的一句話\n\n17:37.432 --> 17:37.872\n委員我跟你報告\n\n17:55.138 --> 18:17.831\n談國道,因為國道走高速公路不穩定,半次。所以一般像基隆是全國公共運輸使用率第二高的城市,所以我們現在才有基隆捷運。就是說當你培養一陣子一定要捷運。部長,你給他講話可能比較大聲。那個八堵到基隆也不是不做,當時討論就是拆遷的課題沒辦法克服。\n\n18:19.431 --> 18:36.437\n部長,我覺得如果比較務實一點,你講到基隆捷運到八堵,我希望規劃能夠早早一點實施,我希望我在永生之年我看得到基隆捷運進基隆市區,但是比較現實的就是說你的feedersystem要不要趕快做一做,也就是八堵站旁邊,\n\n18:37.597 --> 18:38.257\n這個我們跟地方一起來討論\n\n18:56.927 --> 19:17.580\n這個是已經有客源的,已經習慣的。如果未來捷運要到基隆要讓他們能夠活得下去,要使用率要高,那R線公車不能廢。現在R線公車天天基隆市政府在那邊撐著,這不是正確的方法。這是當初台鐵捷運化出來的時候的輔助公車。現在如果捷運真的要到基隆,為什麼R線公車中央不能幫忙?\n\n19:18.953 --> 19:40.621\n我想那個我還有另外一個更大的議題我先把這個議題講完請你好好去修改所謂的運輸業管理規則因為老實講25公里35公里就用國道客運來計算這一點根本一點都不公平業者也辛苦我們搭車的人也辛苦\n\n19:41.883 --> 19:56.116\n而且離峰跟尖峰不到50公里的國道客運這基本上在計算方面來講是個笑話而且最現實的離峰的時候如果沒有人坐不要讓司機累死\n\n19:56.917 --> 20:13.332\n不要讓司機開空車因為我們知道勞基法跟國道客運法一個8小時一個10小時大家都是幫忙勞基法但是我們現在基隆缺司機全台灣都缺司機基隆更缺這點請部長回去看一下運輸業管理規則是否能夠修正\n\n20:14.693 --> 20:32.156\n公共運輸的離婚跟監控這個問題都普遍也很少說離婚就不開那離婚有人要搭,重點是五個人尤其沒有在上班的這些老人家所以也沒辦法說離婚都不開啦所以一般都會去搭配監控開的比較多離婚開的比較少\n\n20:33.708 --> 20:54.143\n我是希望你們能做出例外,因為老實講這個問題不是只有基隆有,我剛剛講過,這問題不是只有基隆有,桃園也有。葛馬蘭客運兩條線要收了,許廷很辛苦的把他救回來,但是這樣事情其實不應該讓他發生。我們來維持一個服務品質,我們不會確保他中斷。我想說如果相關要檢討我們來討論。\n\n20:56.598 --> 21:05.467\n院長,您有聽過美國一個報導說,假設你通勤的時間超過3個小時,你的生活品質、你的家庭關係就會瀕臨破裂嗎?\n\n21:08.041 --> 21:24.454\n我沒有聽過這樣的說法,但是我在美國住過滿堂一段時間。其實美國離婚率最高的地方叫做矽谷,因為他們通勤的時間,如果用通勤的話,他們通勤時間超過5個小時。很多人因為矽谷的薪水高所以跑去矽谷。\n\n21:26.676 --> 21:54.355\n同樣狀況其實發生也在北北基陶尤其是在基隆跟臺北之間臺北市把很多基隆的精華人才吸到臺北市但是通勤的狀況導致說基隆人越來越不快樂我們基隆有三高失業率高離婚率高跟自殺率最高而這個數據我沒看過了對好而我為什麼要這樣講呢其實根本上來講是因為失業率\n\n21:55.632 --> 22:12.738\n基隆以前是40年前時間過很快40年前1984年基隆是全世界十大海港那時候基隆在十大海港排名很高將近第七最高的時候1987年排名第七那是基隆港最高的時候後來我們知道貨運轉型再加上WTO再加上港\n\n22:13.078 --> 22:13.098\n﹚廣告\n\n22:30.959 --> 22:43.896\n很多年長者還是留在基隆,基隆的高齡化也是全國名列前茅的,但是他們轉型不容易,所以當失業率高、離婚率也高的時候,\n\n22:46.246 --> 23:12.540\n基隆港的90%以上的收入都來自貨運商港並不是大家想的郵輪港或郵輪母港本席以前在港務公司待過將近5年的時間本席曾經代表台灣代表港務公司去外面拉過航線過來本席很清楚郵輪不會賺錢郵輪提高工作機會在基隆是很困難的事情因為基隆沒有腹地\n\n23:13.200 --> 23:17.916\n由於論壇需要有人上下船之外,還要有補給跟修船的功能。\n\n23:20.322 --> 23:43.818\n您認同這句話嗎?總統當選的賴清德說,他也說他是基隆子弟,他說未來要把整個基隆港變成郵輪港。我想這是部分的商港要轉為郵輪港。那這個郵輪確實在全世界現在在海洋航運上是扮演一個蠻重要的角色。院長我必須跟您談這個事情,我願意花多一點時間。這是他在\n\n23:44.378 --> 24:09.865\n二十二月二十四日親口在媒體上講的他希望把所有目前看起來這句話的解說是他希望把所有的貨運都移到台北港那以海運的知識來講基隆港比台北港好太多了因為台北港你只要把六十四號觀音山那個隧道一出問題所有的貨都出不去進不來根文報告目前是這樣不好意思讓我講完為什麼要講完的原因是因為\n\n24:12.630 --> 24:35.699\n過去幾年因為疫情我們不知道下一次什麼時候疫情會來其實疫情就跟戰爭一樣隨時可能會發生那疫情也好戰爭也好一發生的時候觀光業是最倒楣的那郵輪基本上來講是個高檔的觀光業那請問一下如果郵輪港真的再計容出事我們行政院我們中央政府有任何補救措施嗎\n\n24:36.789 --> 24:36.969\n黃部長,很多港\n\n25:06.840 --> 25:13.170\n港運前輩跟我提過說您是這幾任部長裡面算比較負責比較專業的部長那我想請問你\n\n25:14.758 --> 25:37.909\n基隆捷運到基隆經過的北五堵經過的五堵北五堵這些貨櫃倉儲未來是不是會變成捷運用地變成商業用地好再來你說這13000人那最後面去到台北港去因為沒有附地基本上基隆西岸你說貨都在西岸對吧西岸就是中山區那邊如果不管是東岸還是西岸的貨如果後面沒有後廠的話請問這個港這個貨運怎麼做啊\n\n25:42.051 --> 25:59.004\n他現在也沒有全部轉移可是未來很有可能轉移所以未來我要知道新政府未來對金融的規劃啊現在就是郵輪跟貨就是這個客戶都兼顧了目前是兼顧我剛剛講說你們認不認同下一任總統賴新德賴總統當選人的說法他應該是說要加強郵輪的這個功能如果說\n\n26:08.832 --> 26:22.889\n假設他的計畫真的把臺北港變成全北部第一大港,那我可以很負責的跟院長跟部長跟所有內閣報告,基隆市的交通絕對會完蛋,基隆市一定會造反。\n\n26:24.212 --> 26:26.993\n剛才講過這個發展成郵輪是在東岸的部分那西岸的部分還實際上是香港的部分這剛才已經講過了\n\n26:49.117 --> 27:16.918\n委員這一個整個全體的規劃呢我想交通部都有自己的看法當然委員你的意見很寶貴我們也願意來聆聽你的意見我們看看你的意見有什麼建議想一想七龍港從全球第七大港掉到現在全球排名可能的150名之外為什麼因為船隻巨大化再加上說我們沒有腹地我們真的沒有腹地唯一的腹地就是在北吳都那邊的貨櫃集散站那邊的倉儲用地\n\n27:18.060 --> 27:30.460\n現在因為基隆捷運要把這些倉促用力拿掉,然後你跟我講說你們來規劃,那我很想知道說你們未來規劃怎麼樣幫基隆商港留下來,因為基隆商港如果這個功能一旦不在,一萬三千人馬上上國道。\n\n27:31.381 --> 27:48.063\n市長跟委員現在都在轉型有時候就是因為全國裡面就是基隆的遊輪母港是所有全世界的這些遊艇業者最喜歡來的一個地方嘛那因應這個我們才做西岸跟東岸的禮運中心我知道那個委員你也看到現在\n\n27:50.825 --> 28:09.537\n所以兼顧這件事我在跟委員一定是兼顧不可能把後運我希望部長您講這句話現在媒體都在看這句話是有會議記錄的因為這是代表基隆的一萬三千人雖然你們這是一萬三千個家庭喔這是一萬三千個家庭的生計\n\n28:12.768 --> 28:30.722\n這是我基隆13000的家庭生計請記得這句話我再強調一次我們把基隆港定位為北部海運貨物的進出港以及國際郵輪的母港這是我們的定義這是在我們的國際商港未來發展及競爭的話裡面陳院長您剛剛講這些話這是在110年10月12號未來下一個執政團隊會買單\n\n28:40.555 --> 28:48.063\n委員因為你是新的委員我再請問一件事情我再跟你講111到115年的計畫就是剛才我講的啦不好意思我現在直接問一個最直接的事情基隆關全國57%的關稅是在基隆關\n\n29:02.037 --> 29:22.535\n但是基隆港說真的基隆市說真的財政很困難基隆市的所有的公共建設基隆市的所有公共基隆市的空屋基隆市很多方面公共建設不變嚴格講起來都是基隆港帶來的沒有錯有港才有市但是我們現在基隆市36萬人全體在為了基隆港在去做我們做出犧牲\n\n29:24.222 --> 29:50.534\n我想請問這種以前有一句話叫Taxationwithoutrepresentation有付稅但是沒有代表權或Taxationwithoutbenefit你要我的稅我們幫國家犧牲這麼多但是我們在這港口的城市居民沒有得到合理的對待那我想請問未來的關稅是不是可以某種程度上比例而且嚴格講起來我也必須講一句實話\n\n29:51.502 --> 30:19.545\n基隆、台中、台北、新北還有高雄都自詡是海洋城市我們台灣自詡是海洋國家但是我們對港口旁邊都市的建造一點都沒有重視新北、高雄、台中是剛好是六都不是因為說我們台灣中央政府對他們這些港都、港部城市有任何的重視所以我認為說在未來不合理的關稅分配至少要分劃給當地的城市\n\n30:23.682 --> 30:51.942\n跟委員說明一下關稅的部分那是進入博庫來統籌分配那中央對地方有一個中央統籌分配稅款這裡面有一個指標就是那個營業額那營業額如果這個還商港在這個城市那他相對的工商活動會比較活潑那他的營業額的高那對於中央稅款的分配也可以有所回饋另外在主計總署的一般的補助款裡面對於商港城市也有加權的一個加重的\n\n30:59.158 --> 31:03.108\n好謝謝林委員沛祥的質詢謝謝陳院長的備詢謝謝接下來我們請登記第24號李委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":30.388,"end":53.561,"text":"請直接發言,沒問題。麥克風已經開了。院長,請陳建仁院長備詢。好,麻煩請陳院長備詢。特別跟林委員報告,三個麥克風都可以用。對。林委員長,恭喜你當選立委。院長謝謝。我們是行政院院長,"},{"start":54.795,"end":58.697,"text":"您是官 我是民 我是民代所以今天不管如何我希望有個善意的質詢跟回應"},{"start":78.121,"end":106.437,"text":"為什麼先把北北基的這個議題拿出來講因為我記得沒有錯的話賴清德總統當選人在選舉的時候曾經提出來的桃竹苗大細股一年200億的計畫那我就很想知道說那對於我們北北基桃目前的規劃是什麼畢竟來講北北基桃加起來可能超過1000萬人口也是目前我們全國最大人口區"},{"start":107.297,"end":109.459,"text":"我想北北寄討我們本來就是把它當作首都生活圈"},{"start":121.971,"end":123.832,"text":"謝謝院長那我想請問一個事情就是TPASS上路之後當然是成效蠻好的"},{"start":150.726,"end":157.029,"text":"但是這個財源來講嚴格來說本席也認為說這個TPAS1200那這個會延續到多久?現在我們的預算我們當然是希望能夠繼續編下去那當然這個預算的編列還需要送到大院來審查但是現在的預算是到114年"},{"start":180.618,"end":181.759,"text":"好,我請部長回答你。"},{"start":197.379,"end":226.222,"text":"跟委員報告目前基隆捷運還品跟中規都合訂了所以現在是在新北市政府他會來做興建的工作那目前是在民國123年完工目前的目標年是123年123年嗎?對民國123年那請問我認為是可能馬上通車馬上就會完工通車馬上出問題為什麼?因為我們知道說現在基隆捷運"},{"start":227.633,"end":252.754,"text":"從八堵到南港就要33分鐘。也就是說我們如果現行的台鐵鞋區間車只要23分鐘到24分鐘目前的自強號只要14到17分鐘的時候當通車的那一刻也就是表示那是空車的那一刻因為從基隆到台北上班的人我很難想像說他們會願意搭一個比較便捷如果一票"},{"start":253.775,"end":256.217,"text":"我想大家都喜歡來爭取決議包括基隆也是一樣那最主要委員可能也很清楚"},{"start":282.881,"end":306.802,"text":"解運的班次跟台鐵的班次是不一樣的。我請部長來詳細跟你回答。你如果注意看那個路線圖,它跟台鐵已經分離了。比如說你在五堵,基隆在五堵地方的服務很廣,所以它兩個的服務範圍已經有一些不一樣了。第二個就是院長所提的,解運的穩定性跟它的班次,"},{"start":307.943,"end":336.652,"text":"雖然他速度不如台鐵但是他的服務的這個穩定性會很多人會喜歡去搭這個捷運所以想說在過去我們討論也希望說這個基隆捷運能夠帶動整個基隆沿線北部的這些發展那目前也有一些相關的計畫在進行所以他是不同的服務範圍有這個不同的目標他現在來進行基本上我個人我本人我本席認為不管怎麼樣捷運的"},{"start":337.752,"end":366.986,"text":"前提不是為了都市發展而是為了交通運輸,為了通勤足額準備的對吧?都市發展應該很重要。都市發展很重要,但是如果Priority wise,以優先順序來講的話,應該是通勤為主再來才是都市發展。那如果最後的目標是希望軌道運輸,整體的軌道運輸可以提升的話,那就會變成是說假設從八堵到南港端都要花33分鐘,而從基隆到台北火車站的時間可能會比這個"},{"start":367.546,"end":385.694,"text":"中國時間來得少很多的話以本席一個今天早上自己開車從基隆開自己開車從基隆來台北上班的人或以前從坐火車從基隆到台北來上班的人我會覺得說他們要趕上9點的那個班要趕上9點能夠順利打卡"},{"start":386.774,"end":406.568,"text":"這個是對於未來做捷運會很辛苦的事情。我不知道部長有沒有這個...我跟各位報告以阪南縣來看,你說阪橋到台北有火車也有捷運,可是阪南縣的後端是服務包括這個相關的以前台鐵沒有服務到的地方。"},{"start":408.509,"end":419.093,"text":"部長我直接問另外一個問題好了,請問一下基隆捷運最多可以做,如果全部1D1階段全部都可以做人的話,請問一下基隆捷運這一列車廂可以放幾個人?"},{"start":420.787,"end":439.601,"text":"他一般沒有這樣,就是一小時大概五千人,可以運送五千人。五千人次還是五千人次?五千人次也可以。五千人有很多,因為院長每一句話我們現在每個人都在記錄,因為五千人次等於2500人是嗎?今天有個好處,比如說班次縮短一半,就變成一萬人。"},{"start":441.042,"end":465.009,"text":"我現在要問的問題是在於說請問這一列列車我剛剛有講一列列車多少人?應該是300人。那請問台鐵呢?台鐵像普洋馬那些是500多人。那請問你知道基隆市每天搭乘火車到台北上班的人有多少人?大概應該是有6萬人。"},{"start":467.642,"end":473.79,"text":"錯,只有一萬五千人,人不是人次是人,你是來回算,我們應該要把這個數字更精準。總數十萬啦,鐵路大概六萬。"},{"start":480.295,"end":501.981,"text":"部長,我認為您對數字的掌握其實很有問題,真的很有問題。不過我想請問說,如果假設一萬五千人,你剛剛說是三、四百人一列列車,那麼你如何在七點到九點之間能夠順利的把一萬五千人從基隆到台北運送呢?"},{"start":503.761,"end":527.642,"text":"你認為協議做得到嗎?車廂的話現在一列414人啊這是昨天出來的報告上面寫的啊33分鐘也是昨天出來中國報告上面寫的啊那我只想問你這報告是真的還假的順便我也想問其他的我覺得都是很弔詭的事情那我想請問說我們想從這邊這個資料來看一下好了"},{"start":531.786,"end":535.41,"text":"這是你們自己通過文部報告提出來的資料嗎?是,來,謝謝這是什麼東西?"},{"start":545.658,"end":562.298,"text":"本席是基隆市市民那對於基隆市的財務本席相當關心那我想請問一下以現行台鐵的運量來為參考是否以後可以支撐整個基隆捷運的運作因為我們要知道一件事情喔"},{"start":564.774,"end":575.882,"text":"現在基隆捷運第一段完工的點是在巴堵巴堵附近有多少人願意去搭捷運還是直接開車到台北這件事情請部長列入考量"},{"start":576.977,"end":579.339,"text":"請問一下如果說在這個單就營運成本跟預期收益的推估之後就基隆地區"},{"start":598.433,"end":598.713,"text":"我剛才報告齁"},{"start":614.053,"end":635.401,"text":"如果在公共運輸你只講能不能自負盈虧,那很多公共運輸都做不下去。我們唯一能做的就是說我開了班次以後我要透過土地開發來挹注他的收入。現在目前是這樣。現在就是說如果這個效益,土地開發不做效益一定很差。部長我還有另外一個最現實的問題要問。"},{"start":637.322,"end":642.887,"text":"我們現在基隆市政府有提出一個巴獨到基隆火車站的這個申請經費大概一千多萬我們會給予協助"},{"start":655.317,"end":669.882,"text":"這個部分就留給基隆市政府看他未來要往哪邊走。往安樂區或是往這個重症區。本席對於你說要給予協助、給予肯定。不過本席更希望說我們行政院可以給基隆市多一點幫忙。"},{"start":671.735,"end":699.564,"text":"因為這一個規劃基本上我如果我記得沒有錯話林佑昌林部長也在場當初是國家海洋門戶計畫剛開始是一毛錢都不用付現在好行政院改朝換代之後說使用者付費那基隆人也就認了但是這條基隆捷運本席認為對於都市發展是有幫助的但對於通勤運輸對於這些10萬通勤族幫助非常的小"},{"start":700.644,"end":718.095,"text":"這是本席要先把這件事講清楚的地方。再來通勤人數10萬大軍,天天台北基隆兩邊跑。這就是基隆人的困境。部長我剛剛跟你講的是15000人,本來是以前高峰的時候是到17000人的。"},{"start":722.67,"end":740.91,"text":"總數10萬,我剛才講10萬嘛。可是10萬是總數,1萬7是1萬5,現在掉到1萬5,因為快捷公車掉到1萬5,甚至到1萬3。這個是基隆人天天往臺北跑的困境。那部長請問你知道說天天開車的人有多少,天天做國道科運的人有多少嗎?"},{"start":743.533,"end":769.028,"text":"數字齁,我據我當時的了解是大概有5萬啦齁,5萬是這一個...所以說沒有錯,這樣加起來5萬人開車,其他4萬人搭國道客運。這也就是為什麼本席特地要拿出來這個講。因為我們國道客運現在我們知道缺工缺班次,天天你看到可憐的基隆人在臺北的街頭等車,本席陪他們等了5年。"},{"start":771.072,"end":795.892,"text":"在這種天氣今天晚上還是有人在外面等車而現在基隆人已經可憐到說我們在高速公路上面塞著我們還可以勉強忍受但是你在路邊站著沒有車子來的時候那個怨氣是直接往本席跟政府上面發的所以說為什麼本席在一上任之後我今天在交通委員會我就是要針對國道客運的事情來討個說法"},{"start":799.67,"end":827.847,"text":"白天來臺北的班班客滿這個是1802這條路線1802這條路線是目前基隆市十大路線之一排名第七的路線他是從基隆到三重我們可以清楚的看到白天上班的時間從基隆到臺北班班客滿晚上下班時間從臺北到基隆班班客滿更直接的班聚來講這是基隆人的需求"},{"start":829.984,"end":854.867,"text":"這就是我們看到基隆人的需求,搬去尖峰時段跟離峰時段差非常的遠,但是對於客運業者來講其實是很辛苦的。為什麼這樣說?因為客運業者不管在什麼時候,全國的客運業者都是一樣的運價補助。也就是說全國都是一樣的時候,基隆到台北,部長請問你知道,部長或者院長,院長請問你知道基隆到台北到底幾公里嗎?"},{"start":857.121,"end":873.461,"text":"二十五公里。同樣的問題也發生在桃園。剛剛劉許廷、劉委員也講到,他們的國道科研也出一樣問題。為什麼?因為從桃園到台北三十五公里。可是如果你只給這樣的補助,這些業者當然是入不敷出啊。更何況說,"},{"start":875.114,"end":876.396,"text":"國道客運的票價他們最近有提進來我剛才有回答過"},{"start":891.875,"end":913.087,"text":"部長,我可以直接跟你講,對基隆、對桃園不會有幫助的。葛瑪蘭還是一樣遭倒,國光還是一樣向你訴苦。為什麼?因為很簡單的,還是里程書的問題。你的新的票價條是給全國的,對於短程的我們並沒有特別去尊重。"},{"start":913.868,"end":940.82,"text":"根本是說基隆人、桃園人要離鄉背井來臺北上班的時候,他一定要做國道公車為了要省錢,為了要讓自己方便,因為不是每個人都有能力開車。院長,不是每個人都有失業,不是每個人都有能力開車,但是不管怎麼樣,他們如果在臺北上班,因為基隆沒有工作機會,基隆工作機會是少的,基隆港沒落之後基隆港工作機會少的,這是我下一個要講的議題。"},{"start":941.42,"end":948.601,"text":"而造成說他們必須來台北上班的時候他們就要想說我要怎麼樣9點整能夠打卡"},{"start":950.165,"end":973.226,"text":"那部長知道要9點整從基隆發車能夠打卡到臺北幾點要出門嗎?6點半,如果自己不開車的話,因為你在基隆就要等車啊,不是晚上你在臺北的路口等車,白天你也在基隆的路口等車,中間還要再塞3、45分鐘到1個小時的車,而且你到臺北之後,你不是直接到你的公司門口,你還要再轉車,轉3、4下。"},{"start":977.006,"end":992.086,"text":"部長也好,院長也好,你們覺得這樣的人生會是幸福的嗎?這樣的感覺會是好的嗎?所以我想整個交通的規劃很重要的就是怎麼樣快捷而且合理。那剛才我們"},{"start":992.987,"end":1008.961,"text":"我講通則啦齁那你現在講的這一個捷運很重要然後呢國道的客運也很重要那未來在長遠來看我們需要有一個捷運讓大家不必要等很久就可以搭到車而且捷運的體系"},{"start":1009.461,"end":1033.304,"text":"在新北市、臺北市我們都可以看得到還有桃園市都是很方便的。國道的部分你剛才講到的應該檢討這一個相關的...院長不好意思讓我打斷我認同你的講法捷運到基隆是好事但是在好事10年之後才能到的時候而且10年之後我們現在只到八堵"},{"start":1034.258,"end":1035.239,"text":"不好意思 讓我講很重要的一句話"},{"start":1057.432,"end":1057.872,"text":"委員 我跟你報告"},{"start":1075.138,"end":1097.831,"text":"談國道,因為國道走高速公路不穩定,半次。所以一般像基隆是全國公共運輸使用率第二高的城市,所以我們現在才有基隆捷運。就是說當你培養一陣子一定要捷運。部長,你給他講話可能比較大聲。那個八堵到基隆也不是不做,當時討論就是拆遷的課題沒辦法克服。"},{"start":1099.431,"end":1116.437,"text":"部長,我覺得如果比較務實一點,你講到基隆捷運到八堵,我希望規劃能夠早早一點實施,我希望我在永生之年我看得到基隆捷運進基隆市區,但是比較現實的就是說你的feeder system要不要趕快做一做,也就是八堵站旁邊,"},{"start":1117.597,"end":1118.257,"text":"這個我們跟地方一起來討論"},{"start":1136.927,"end":1157.58,"text":"這個是已經有客源的,已經習慣的。如果未來捷運要到基隆要讓他們能夠活得下去,要使用率要高,那R線公車不能廢。現在R線公車天天基隆市政府在那邊撐著,這不是正確的方法。這是當初台鐵捷運化出來的時候的輔助公車。現在如果捷運真的要到基隆,為什麼R線公車中央不能幫忙?"},{"start":1158.953,"end":1180.621,"text":"我想那個我還有另外一個更大的議題我先把這個議題講完請你好好去修改所謂的運輸業管理規則因為老實講25公里35公里就用國道客運來計算這一點根本一點都不公平業者也辛苦我們搭車的人也辛苦"},{"start":1181.883,"end":1196.116,"text":"而且離峰跟尖峰不到50公里的國道客運這基本上在計算方面來講是個笑話而且最現實的離峰的時候如果沒有人坐不要讓司機累死"},{"start":1196.917,"end":1213.332,"text":"不要讓司機開空車因為我們知道勞基法跟國道客運法一個8小時一個10小時大家都是幫忙勞基法但是我們現在基隆缺司機全台灣都缺司機基隆更缺這點請部長回去看一下運輸業管理規則是否能夠修正"},{"start":1214.693,"end":1232.156,"text":"公共運輸的離婚跟監控這個問題都普遍也很少說離婚就不開那離婚有人要搭,重點是五個人尤其沒有在上班的這些老人家所以也沒辦法說離婚都不開啦所以一般都會去搭配監控開的比較多離婚開的比較少"},{"start":1233.708,"end":1254.143,"text":"我是希望你們能做出例外,因為老實講這個問題不是只有基隆有,我剛剛講過,這問題不是只有基隆有,桃園也有。葛馬蘭客運兩條線要收了,許廷很辛苦的把他救回來,但是這樣事情其實不應該讓他發生。我們來維持一個服務品質,我們不會確保他中斷。我想說如果相關要檢討我們來討論。"},{"start":1256.598,"end":1265.467,"text":"院長,您有聽過美國一個報導說,假設你通勤的時間超過3個小時,你的生活品質、你的家庭關係就會瀕臨破裂嗎?"},{"start":1268.041,"end":1284.454,"text":"我沒有聽過這樣的說法,但是我在美國住過滿堂一段時間。其實美國離婚率最高的地方叫做矽谷,因為他們通勤的時間,如果用通勤的話,他們通勤時間超過5個小時。很多人因為矽谷的薪水高所以跑去矽谷。"},{"start":1286.676,"end":1314.355,"text":"同樣狀況其實發生也在北北基陶尤其是在基隆跟臺北之間臺北市把很多基隆的精華人才吸到臺北市但是通勤的狀況導致說基隆人越來越不快樂我們基隆有三高失業率高離婚率高跟自殺率最高而這個數據我沒看過了對好而我為什麼要這樣講呢其實根本上來講是因為失業率"},{"start":1315.632,"end":1332.738,"text":"基隆以前是40年前時間過很快40年前1984年基隆是全世界十大海港那時候基隆在十大海港排名很高將近第七最高的時候1987年排名第七那是基隆港最高的時候後來我們知道貨運轉型再加上WTO再加上港"},{"start":1333.078,"end":1333.098,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":1350.959,"end":1363.896,"text":"很多年長者還是留在基隆,基隆的高齡化也是全國名列前茅的,但是他們轉型不容易,所以當失業率高、離婚率也高的時候,"},{"start":1366.246,"end":1392.54,"text":"基隆港的90%以上的收入都來自貨運商港並不是大家想的郵輪港或郵輪母港本席以前在港務公司待過將近5年的時間本席曾經代表台灣代表港務公司去外面拉過航線過來本席很清楚郵輪不會賺錢郵輪提高工作機會在基隆是很困難的事情因為基隆沒有腹地"},{"start":1393.2,"end":1397.916,"text":"由於論壇需要有人上下船之外,還要有補給跟修船的功能。"},{"start":1400.322,"end":1423.818,"text":"您認同這句話嗎?總統當選的賴清德說,他也說他是基隆子弟,他說未來要把整個基隆港變成郵輪港。我想這是部分的商港要轉為郵輪港。那這個郵輪確實在全世界現在在海洋航運上是扮演一個蠻重要的角色。院長我必須跟您談這個事情,我願意花多一點時間。這是他在"},{"start":1424.378,"end":1449.865,"text":"二十二月二十四日親口在媒體上講的他希望把所有目前看起來這句話的解說是他希望把所有的貨運都移到台北港那以海運的知識來講基隆港比台北港好太多了因為台北港你只要把六十四號觀音山那個隧道一出問題所有的貨都出不去進不來根文報告目前是這樣不好意思讓我講完為什麼要講完的原因是因為"},{"start":1452.63,"end":1475.699,"text":"過去幾年因為疫情我們不知道下一次什麼時候疫情會來其實疫情就跟戰爭一樣隨時可能會發生那疫情也好戰爭也好一發生的時候觀光業是最倒楣的那郵輪基本上來講是個高檔的觀光業那請問一下如果郵輪港真的再計容出事我們行政院我們中央政府有任何補救措施嗎"},{"start":1476.789,"end":1476.969,"text":"黃部長,很多港"},{"start":1506.84,"end":1513.17,"text":"港運前輩跟我提過說您是這幾任部長裡面算比較負責比較專業的部長那我想請問你"},{"start":1514.758,"end":1537.909,"text":"基隆捷運到基隆經過的北五堵經過的五堵北五堵這些貨櫃倉儲未來是不是會變成捷運用地變成商業用地好再來你說這13000人那最後面去到台北港去因為沒有附地基本上基隆西岸你說貨都在西岸對吧西岸就是中山區那邊如果不管是東岸還是西岸的貨如果後面沒有後廠的話請問這個港這個貨運怎麼做啊"},{"start":1542.051,"end":1559.004,"text":"他現在也沒有全部轉移可是未來很有可能轉移所以未來我要知道新政府未來對金融的規劃啊現在就是郵輪跟貨就是這個客戶都兼顧了目前是兼顧我剛剛講說你們認不認同下一任總統賴新德賴總統當選人的說法他應該是說要加強郵輪的這個功能如果說"},{"start":1568.832,"end":1582.889,"text":"假設他的計畫真的把臺北港變成全北部第一大港,那我可以很負責的跟院長跟部長跟所有內閣報告,基隆市的交通絕對會完蛋,基隆市一定會造反。"},{"start":1584.212,"end":1586.993,"text":"剛才講過這個發展成郵輪是在東岸的部分那西岸的部分還實際上是香港的部分這剛才已經講過了"},{"start":1609.117,"end":1636.918,"text":"委員這一個整個全體的規劃呢我想交通部都有自己的看法當然委員你的意見很寶貴我們也願意來聆聽你的意見我們看看你的意見有什麼建議想一想七龍港從全球第七大港掉到現在全球排名可能的150名之外為什麼因為船隻巨大化再加上說我們沒有腹地我們真的沒有腹地唯一的腹地就是在北吳都那邊的貨櫃集散站那邊的倉儲用地"},{"start":1638.06,"end":1650.46,"text":"現在因為基隆捷運要把這些倉促用力拿掉,然後你跟我講說你們來規劃,那我很想知道說你們未來規劃怎麼樣幫基隆商港留下來,因為基隆商港如果這個功能一旦不在,一萬三千人馬上上國道。"},{"start":1651.381,"end":1668.063,"text":"市長跟委員現在都在轉型有時候就是因為全國裡面就是基隆的遊輪母港是所有全世界的這些遊艇業者最喜歡來的一個地方嘛那因應這個我們才做西岸跟東岸的禮運中心我知道那個委員你也看到現在"},{"start":1670.825,"end":1689.537,"text":"所以兼顧這件事我在跟委員一定是兼顧不可能把後運我希望部長您講這句話現在媒體都在看這句話是有會議記錄的因為這是代表基隆的一萬三千人雖然你們這是一萬三千個家庭喔這是一萬三千個家庭的生計"},{"start":1692.768,"end":1710.722,"text":"這是我基隆13000的家庭生計請記得這句話我再強調一次我們把基隆港定位為北部海運貨物的進出港以及國際郵輪的母港這是我們的定義這是在我們的國際商港未來發展及競爭的話裡面陳院長您剛剛講這些話這是在110年10月12號未來下一個執政團隊會買單"},{"start":1720.555,"end":1728.063,"text":"委員因為你是新的委員我再請問一件事情我再跟你講111到115年的計畫就是剛才我講的啦不好意思我現在直接問一個最直接的事情基隆關全國57%的關稅是在基隆關"},{"start":1742.037,"end":1762.535,"text":"但是基隆港說真的基隆市說真的財政很困難基隆市的所有的公共建設基隆市的所有公共基隆市的空屋基隆市很多方面公共建設不變嚴格講起來都是基隆港帶來的沒有錯有港才有市但是我們現在基隆市36萬人全體在為了基隆港在去做我們做出犧牲"},{"start":1764.222,"end":1790.534,"text":"我想請問這種以前有一句話叫Taxation without representation有付稅但是沒有代表權或Taxation without benefit你要我的稅我們幫國家犧牲這麼多但是我們在這港口的城市居民沒有得到合理的對待那我想請問未來的關稅是不是可以某種程度上比例而且嚴格講起來我也必須講一句實話"},{"start":1791.502,"end":1819.545,"text":"基隆、台中、台北、新北還有高雄都自詡是海洋城市我們台灣自詡是海洋國家但是我們對港口旁邊都市的建造一點都沒有重視新北、高雄、台中是剛好是六都不是因為說我們台灣中央政府對他們這些港都、港部城市有任何的重視所以我認為說在未來不合理的關稅分配至少要分劃給當地的城市"},{"start":1823.682,"end":1851.942,"text":"跟委員說明一下關稅的部分那是進入博庫來統籌分配那中央對地方有一個中央統籌分配稅款這裡面有一個指標就是那個營業額那營業額如果這個還商港在這個城市那他相對的工商活動會比較活潑那他的營業額的高那對於中央稅款的分配也可以有所回饋另外在主計總署的一般的補助款裡面對於商港城市也有加權的一個加重的"},{"start":1859.158,"end":1863.108,"text":"好謝謝林委員沛祥的質詢謝謝陳院長的備詢謝謝接下來我們請登記第24號李委員"}]}}}}