{"id":149172,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149172","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61498c107f55f96262ce796b4a52ee4fdba0a28dd420b397f8ba9b0039caa7a67def63981a27d4805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"15:18:55 - 15:49:50","影片長度":"00:30:55","會議時間":"2024-03-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第3次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n 二、3月1日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n 三、3月5日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第3次會議","id":"院會-11-1-3","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3},"date":"2024-03-01","duration":1855,"end_time":"2024-03-01T15:49:50+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-01T15:18:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":177,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（15時19分）謝謝院長。有請院長，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩請行政院陳院長備詢，謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：首先我可能也會關心NCC主委陳耀祥陳主委。"],["陳院長建仁：羅委員午安，恭喜你當選立委。"],["羅委員廷瑋：院長，謝謝您的恭喜，謝謝。我想請問一下NCC主委。"],["陳院長建仁：來了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：謝謝。主委，我想剛剛翁委員有提到，在 NCC這幾年有許多的爭議，我想這些紛紛擾擾也都在你上一次有提到可能就不會再繼續擔任主委這一職，我想請問一下NCC主委，陳主委，請問一下你卸任後的人生規劃，方便跟大家提供一下嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我在媒體上講得很清楚，我要回學校任教，因為借調時間已經8年了、任期已經到了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：要回去教書？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好的。另外請問陳院長，4位NCC的委員即將在7月屆滿，4月底前要提名，請問您目前有沒有提名的人選或條件？"],["陳院長建仁：我們現在請各界來推薦，這個條件當然是具有電信、資訊、傳播、法律或財經等專業學識或是有實務經驗的人才，我們來網羅他們作為向大院推薦的人選。"],["羅委員廷瑋：院長，謝謝。你剛剛有說出條件，目前有沒有人選已經開始在面試？"],["陳院長建仁：當然我們陸陸續續有請各界來推薦。"],["羅委員廷瑋：看起來應該是有人選了，沒關係！就還在瞭解嘛？"],["陳院長建仁：是，當然。"],["羅委員廷瑋：等你方便公布的時候再跟我們分享。"],["陳院長建仁：時間到了以後，我們一定即時、準時向大院推薦。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，主委，謝謝您。","在我準備跟您詢問之前，另外想先詢問幾個問題，我想中國搶奪邦交國的企圖從未停歇，院長，現在12個邦交國的關係是否都穩固？你心中最穩固的可不可以跟我們分享一下？"],["陳院長建仁：我們跟各個邦交國的邦誼都相當不錯，也會繼續維持，我們彼此作為自由、民主相同理念的夥伴，我們彼此幫忙、相互協助。"],["羅委員廷瑋：您心目中覺得最穩固的是哪一個國家？"],["陳院長建仁：我想我們現在不容易一一比較，因為各個特性不一樣，但是我們會很努力維持每個邦交國的關係。"],["羅委員廷瑋：您印象最深刻的呢？院長，有沒有您自己印象深刻的國家？"],["陳院長建仁：我印象深刻的是其實滿多邦交國都跟我們相當好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：方便舉例嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：現在這方面我不方便。"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒關係、沒關係，之前傳出帛琉有可能跟臺灣斷交，大陸想要挖牆角，還要開價碼、要訂滿所有帛琉飯店的房間，結果華航宣布從7月起一週要變成4班航班，這難道是要挽救邦交國嗎？有這麼多人要搭嗎？是否有政治考量？部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：回答委員的問題，有關我們臺灣跟帛琉的關係的確是非常穩固，這個絕對沒有問題，但是我們跟帛琉之間的關係有很多層面必須要進行合作，我們在疫情之前每週就有4班，所以從疫情開始減班之後，我們就逐漸恢復，今年夏天應該可以恢復到疫情前的狀況，我想這對帛琉來講也是一個好消息。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以是因應疫情，準備要回溫之前的一個狀態，是嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：OK，謝謝。以下我有準備幾個問題要先詢問院長，其中4個是是非題、其中1題是簡答題，請院長簡單回答我就可以了，部長請回，謝謝您。","這5題很簡單，我想不需要靠其他人，院長就有辦法自己回答，我們看一下PowerPoint。我想詢問院長關於「行政院與所屬各機關及直轄市政府辦理答復立法委員質詢案件處理原則」，您知不知道這個原則呢？"],["陳院長建仁：我不太清楚，這是2016年的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這在105年1月有修正，以現在來說應該都還適用，給您參考一下，但沒關係！我後面會再繼續說明。依據原則第九點「本院交答之質詢案件如為代擬代判院稿案件，各機關應於第六點所定秘書長函文到十日內，以院函回復立法院」，我想換句話說、最簡單地講，就是資料最慢10天內要回復，對嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：照這個文章是這樣寫。"],["羅委員廷瑋：OK，我們看食安法第五條的規定，我想陳院長應該非常熟悉，您是公衛專家，我們再來看看食安法第四十條規定，簡單來說就是各級主管機關在發布預警措施時、發布食品衛生檢驗資訊時，也應該同時公布檢驗方法、檢驗單位還有結果判斷依據，這樣簡單解讀，對嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：對，但這有一個很重要的關鍵是檢驗的結果必須是正確、無誤的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：正確、科學，我之前看到您有提到這樣的質詢答復。"],["陳院長建仁：正確、無誤的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我沒有問題、沒有意見，但我想再跟您詢問一下我的簡答題。院長，106年您身為中華民國的副總統，當時大家都說您是大仁哥，還記得吧？106年4月，彰化地區的蛋雞場雞蛋被驗出戴奧辛含量超標事件，雞蛋到底怎麼會有戴奧辛，請說明源頭到底在哪裡？怎麼發生？最後結果怎麼樣？這個部分院長您可以回答我嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：這個我沒有辦法回答，這個我不熟。"],["羅委員廷瑋：院長，沒關係，部長可以陪同沒關係，但是我……"],["陳院長建仁：部長可以回答嗎？"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒關係，沒關係，等一下，我不能為難院長，因為這個年代真的有點久遠，那106年的戴奧辛蛋到現在仍沒有正確的溯源答案。","我想最後一題是非題，您看看一下，根據輸入藥物邊境抽查檢驗辦法第二十條規定，報驗義務人於收受前項通知之次日起十五日內，得向查驗機關申請複驗，但以一次為限，複驗時由查驗機關就原抽取餘存樣品為之。對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：這個是法律規定的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：法律規定的嘛！就是要抽樣品，而且是原樣的抽樣餘品。謝謝院長以上的答復，我們繼續往下看。","院長，您知道戴奧辛蛋有被監察院糾正嗎？您看一下這個糾正文，監察院在106年1月8日糾正文呈現以下的事實：一、清楚直接的點名，找出源頭是中央政府的責任，不是地方政府。二、戴奧辛的事實是存在的，所以糾正當時的環保署、農委會怠於行政業務的踐行。三、若當時的農委會或環保署將此視為單一事件，僅以產品端進行檢驗或驗證的時候，卻未能正視問題並積極地追查防堵，戴奧辛污染食安事件仍將層出不窮，執行末端的食品安全查驗人員或者是下架人員都會疲於奔命。當然，它也有糾正地方政府彰化縣政府的管理不當。","院長，您講臺中西布特羅案首次的檢驗驗出後，沒給台糖15天的複驗時間就逕行公布，這是臺中市政府的錯，但是院長，市府依食安法第五條，它就是需要公布，如果像您說的還要再等等等，等到中央說可以公布再公布，如果有一天監察院抓到太晚公布，導致臺中市政府的公務人員被糾查、被懲處，誰負責？難道行政院院長陳建仁院長您負責嗎？從今天早上的答復，您在牛煦庭這個部分回復說520之後您是堅定支持，絕對不會再繼續擔任行政院長，那您要怎麼負責？您說臺中市政府錯在太早公布了，現在我們是公開直播，我想問一下，那如果您可以承諾以後類似有這樣子的公務人員被監察院糾正的時候，有人可以負責嗎？您敢在這邊直接說你會負責嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：剛才我已經講了一件很重要的事情，你沒有聽到。"],["羅委員廷瑋：正確的科學。"],["陳院長建仁：那一件事情就是他必須要確定他檢驗的結果是正確，那臺中市政府的檢驗人員在同一塊肉做了很多次的檢驗，前後的差距相差十倍以上，這個時候他自己也感到困惑，所以才會做這麼多次的檢驗，因此對於這一次的檢驗，他並不是那麼有信心的。在這樣的一個情況下，他應該再去採取同批的肉來做檢驗，來確定他的這個結論是否正確，謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好的，院長，謝謝您的回復。院長，根據報導，您指稱臺中市食安處實驗室的污染是有可能的，有可能的，而現在坐在臺下的鄭文燦副院長是直接直指，不管用什麼方式表達都不會改變臺中市實驗室污染的這個事實。第三，我們現在可以看到臺中市衛生局長曾梓展表示，說實驗室的污染，證據在哪裡？而且先後有派官員專家來查看，都定調實驗室沒有污染，院長，我今天想要特別請問的是，請問一下實驗室污染的證據在哪裡？您可以提出來嗎？再來，一個行政院有三種版本，有可能、這是事實以及沒有污染，請問到底國人要怎麼樣才知道哪一個才是正確的答案？"],["陳院長建仁：我想這件事情需要靠我們專家委員會來做最後的認定，專家委員會現在會議已經開完，然後他們現在報告要出來。但是我在這裡要跟委員做報告的是，我們為什麼認為它是有可能的，可能你也很清楚，我在這裡講了很多次，實際上西布特羅進口只有0.8公克的量……"],["羅委員廷瑋：是，我知道。"],["陳院長建仁：然後散布在二十幾個實驗室，我們在上游所有樣本的檢驗，檢驗九百多件肉品統統沒有看到西布特羅……"],["羅委員廷瑋：院長，不好意思，打斷您一下，我都相信您的說法，OK的。"],["陳院長建仁：但是在這個實驗室裡看到……"],["羅委員廷瑋：但我今天就想請問您一個很簡單的問題，我現在看到三種版本，您可不可以今天在公開的直播確定一個版本？是有可能的，還是這是事實，還是這是沒有？"],["陳院長建仁：不排除有污染的可能性。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，所以就是有可能，對吧！三種版本我們找到一個版本，您說的，就是有可能。但我很遺憾的是有人說這是事實，這一點，就這一點，我們應該要抱持著應該要否定的態度，我希望您維持由科學來判定，我們就等專家來判定嘛，那現在是有可能污染……"],["陳院長建仁：委員……"],["羅委員廷瑋：而不是事實，但現在有人大言不慚地直接告訴所有媒體這是事實，我想這就是傷害所有臺中市願意認真去檢驗的公務人員。所以我今天跟您詢問的，是有可能、不排除，對吧？"],["陳院長建仁：對，我跟你講的是這樣。但是我要跟您報告的就是，在接受媒體訪問時，有些人在回答時，要看那個回答的時間等等，看是在哪一個時程裡面所作的結論，這樣比較好一點，謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝。","科學是講數據的，政治才是拐彎抹角、才是含沙射影、才是有證據應該直接講明，如果沒有，講的人應該道歉，甚至應該直接下台，根據媒體報導，大約97%的肉量已經被吃掉了，行政院指出，本次抽驗同批的豬肉共計52件，我想可代表這都沒有檢測出乙型受體素，且檢驗的數目符合科學統計的數目，也就是抽樣數大於30，可代表母體，表示台糖豬肉安全無虞……"],["陳院長建仁：這就是統計科學。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想就教於院長，抽驗數目符合科學統計數目，抽樣數大於30，可代表母體，不好意思，您是公衛專家，我不敢說我比你強……"],["陳院長建仁：這就是統計科學啊。"],["羅委員廷瑋：那我想請問一下，這一句話「可代表母體」的依據是什麼？可否賜教？"],["陳院長建仁：這就是統計科學，當N大於等於30的時候，它的95%信賴區間的測定值就是在可信的範圍內，所以這就是為什麼一般食品檢驗要用抽樣檢查的原理就是在這裡，這就是統計科學的重要性。"],["羅委員廷瑋：今天農業部跟衛福部兩部共驗了885件的樣品，有關西布特羅都未檢出，但臺中市就是檢測出來了。"],["陳院長建仁：對，好奇怪。"],["羅委員廷瑋：食藥署的相關單位也去驗了臺中市那一批，也有驗出來，而且臺中市政府的實驗室也都是食藥署認證的，衛福部部長，對吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：是經過食藥署認證沒錯。"],["羅委員廷瑋：有驗出的話就要抓出問題在哪，不要再扯臺中市政府作假，有，拜託你抓出來讓我們知道臺中市作假，如果沒有就不要一直講臺中市……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，但是這一個檢驗是在臺中市政府的實驗室去驗出來有的，負責任的實驗室應該要去找出來為什麼它可以檢驗出來，而別人檢驗不出來……"],["羅委員廷瑋：好的，但是我剛剛有特別提到……"],["陳院長建仁：它是實際上的檢驗者，它有責任……"],["羅委員廷瑋：監察院的報告還是要求是中央政府的責任……"],["陳院長建仁：來幫助、協助……"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然中央政府協助，不管是最近的判斷、專業判斷，我們都尊重，但是目前是有可能，不要馬上就定調就是臺中市。","您能夠想像嗎？106年食藥署副署長林金富公開強調，告訴民眾不用恐慌，根據資料顯示，就算終身都吃戴奧辛蛋，每日的平均暴露量仍低於世界衛生組織的建議值，這樣向全民信心喊話，當時他做出這樣的喊話，您可以接受嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：如果他當時有做這樣子的一個喊話，而且他也參考了Codex，就是世界上的戴奧辛含量標準，有這樣的一個依據，那他按照數學上的計算，它確實是沒有到達Codex的標準，檢出跟達到國際標準，是檢出的量很低，所以他做這樣的結論是符合科學的論證。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好的，沒問題。院長，您看本席多次發函食安辦索資，這些索資的資料多久了，本席跟你們要檢驗結果的判讀依據等資料，這些都是已經存在的內容，為什麼不能在10天內的期限交付本席？依食安法規定，檢驗的資訊要公開，你都已經驗完囉，公布檢驗的結果同時都應該載明偵測的定量、極限值的判讀依據，這些最基本的資料都已經是現成的，不用再另外找答案，為什麼遲遲沒有交給我？我們辦公室索資很多天了！"],["陳院長建仁：這個部分剛才您說的那個條文是函到後10天內，但是因為這個比較細節，我請部長，看看他知不知道。"],["羅委員廷瑋：10天內，對，你可以給我資料嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我是沒有收到或看到委員要索資的內容……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想我們公文來往都會有證據啦，白紙黑字，沒關係……"],["薛部長瑞元：不過我會回去再查查看……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我後面可以再貼給你看，那是不是您可以給我資料？"],["薛部長瑞元：如果它是屬於一些可以公開的資料的話，這絕對沒有問題啦。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這一次的檢驗報告我想剛剛講得很清楚，食安法規定檢驗資訊都應該要公開，所以應該沒有所謂的可公開跟不可公開吧？那我想這些公衛專家都很瞭解，判斷依據的這個原始資料、檢驗的結果，可信度占有極大的重要性，這個時候您跟我講的好像內部有不能夠告知、不能夠公開的，是這樣嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，如果是檢驗的數據的話，那的確是可以公開，但是我不知道委員要的數據的範圍到哪裡。"],["羅委員廷瑋：OK，我要的範圍內一定都是食安法所規定的，那我們會後再來討論，我再跟您要資料，這樣可以嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：數據就是科學，是資訊公開的、是法律規定的，而我不知道您剛剛給我的回應感覺好像都是有政治的感覺，好像我帶有惡意……"],["薛部長瑞元：因為如果是內部簽呈的過程的話，那個是可以不公開。"],["羅委員廷瑋：OK，我要的就是資訊公開，而且是法律規定可以公開的這些數據，這樣子可以嗎？","我必須再提出一個，您看PPT，2016年4月民進黨立委許智傑舉國家環境毒物研究中心的研究報告，當時這一份報告當中有指稱，開放瘦肉精美牛進口前，2005年到2008年國人的尿液樣本當中約有1.39%到5.56%被驗出4種瘦肉精，其中也包含西布特羅，依此比例來換算，國內恐高達將近115萬人左右受害。","院長，我想我的訴求越來越清楚，您聽聽看，既然國家環境毒物研究中心曾經在2005年到2008年做過這樣子的研究報告，為何中央在溯源管理仍找不到源頭？這是我所疑慮的，但西布特羅大家都知道比萊克多巴胺的毒性大10倍，而且不容易代謝、而且殘留的時間又更久，我想這嚴重性不容小覷。所以今天我想要拜託院長，您剛剛也有在其他的委員質詢時提到，看守內閣要負責任、戰戰兢兢的做到5月19日，您是做事的院長，我要拜託你，院長，西布特羅的同批豬肉有97%已經吃下肚，本席為了臺中市市民的健康著想，我懇求、我也要求中央比照國家環境毒物研究中心的研究報告按例辦理，編列經費給臺中市政府或者是其他的公部門再一次執行相關的研究報告，可以嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：好，首先我要講一下，你們3個委員的講法不一樣，一個要我有守有為、一個要我認真負責、一個叫我說你這個是看守內閣、你不能做任何事情，我覺得……"],["羅委員廷瑋：院長，我就一句話，做你自己，您回答了……"],["陳院長建仁：對！我……"],["羅委員廷瑋：戰戰兢兢做到5月19，您願意負責任嘛。"],["陳院長建仁：那所以剛才的委員講錯了嘛。好，那我現在想講的就是說，對於這一個檢驗的部分需要再做進一步的抽驗，我們已經講好，對於豬肉，我們本來要做2,000件，我們會擴大做到4,000件的Beta blocker這一個乙型受體素的檢驗……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道您有要擴大，我都看過這些其他相關的對話，我現在要拜託你……"],["陳院長建仁：對、對、對，你現在要說給臺中市政府經費，要補助臺中市政府去做什麼檢驗……"],["羅委員廷瑋：或者是其他公部門，沒有一定要給臺中市政府。"],["陳院長建仁：好，沒問題，其他公部門我跟你講了，就已經要從2,000件的豬肉擴大到4,000件……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我希望是比照2016年許智傑委員所看到國家環境毒物研究中心這樣子的一個報告，從國人的尿液再一次的抽樣檢出看看有沒有所謂的乙型受體素嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：你說從尿液來檢驗喔？好，我請衛福部部長來說明。"],["薛部長瑞元：兩件事情跟委員報告，第一個，剛剛提到西布特羅的毒性是萊克多巴胺的1,000倍，那個是賴老師在……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我沒有說1,000倍，我說10倍啦！我說10倍啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：他有聽錯，因為那一個沒有數據……"],["羅委員廷瑋：對不起，不好意思喔！因為時間有限，細部的我們不討論，今天我的訴求很簡單……"],["薛部長瑞元：第二個……"],["羅委員廷瑋：您願意再多編列經費再做這樣子的研究看看嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我要跟委員報告的是，因為所謂的瘦肉精其實就是乙型受體素，乙型受體素裡面這些許多種的話，其中有一些是在藥物裡面有……"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：像我們在氣喘、感冒的時候也經常會用到，所以你去驗這些一般人的……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以2005年到2008年他所指出的這些報告當中是沒有用的，所以當時許智傑拿出這份報告有可能是吃藥的，然後牽扯當時的政府也是錯的嗎？剛剛院長一直跟我強調上一個委員講的是錯的，那您現在是不是間接打臉許智傑拿出的這一份報告也不一定是對的呢？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我要跟您講兩件事，第一件事情，那個時候臺灣都還有可能在使用瘦肉精，第二個，這個檢驗出來結果的解釋很重要，我覺得作為一位好的科學家，你去檢驗出來有了你要怎麼解釋呢？如果這一個乙型受體素本來就在藥物裡面，那你從檢驗對象裡面所檢驗出來的，你要怎麼分辨這是來自豬肉呢？還是來自這一個藥物呢？"],["羅委員廷瑋：院長，您是專業判斷，我尊重，今天我沒有要在這邊考倒您……"],["陳院長建仁：所以我想科學很重要，我也很高興你強調科學，但是我們要看很好的因果論證……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道，我在這邊沒有要考倒您！我在這邊沒有要跟您比個高下，我在這邊是希望能夠爭取這一個經費，再一次做這樣子的研究報告，其實我覺得是立意良善，您也是為了國人的健康，我想這大家都可以再討論看看。","另外我想再跟您提問，院長您平常有滑臉書的習慣嗎？或者是看看LINE？"],["陳院長建仁：我當然有看LINE。"],["羅委員廷瑋：有看LINE吧？"],["陳院長建仁：我也會……"],["羅委員廷瑋：那你有看過網路上在賣藥嗎？我們看一下PTT，院長你有看過嗎？這一頁式的……"],["陳院長建仁：我比較少看廣告。"],["羅委員廷瑋：一頁式的購買網頁，很多人為此而受騙，上週藥師週刊的頭版也都刊登，網路上購藥要小心！藥師全聯會也發出呼籲，要求政府要重視這樣子的一個問題，院長，今天有宣稱醫療效能的LINE、臉書廣告到處充斥，針對該類廣告的處理方式可以說一下嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我請衛福部來解釋。"],["薛部長瑞元：基本上在藥事法裡面對這一類的話，這是應該要處罰啦！"],["羅委員廷瑋：衛福部部長，藥事法可以處罰嘛？對吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，不好意思，如果IP都設在國外要怎麼處理？"],["薛部長瑞元：這是廣告的部分，IP如果是在國外，的確有它的困難度，但是民眾要買藥的話一定是現實的那個藥在國內，所以我們可以來追。"],["羅委員廷瑋：希望您追得到啦！但是我必須跟您講，國外廠商架設網站，其廣告內容違反國內的法定規定時，因為管轄權不在國內，所以無法約束、制止該行為，而如今業者都在國內網站刊登這種誇大不實、宣稱醫療廣告，違反藥事法、食安法等規定，但若是在國外架設網站、國內刊登廣告，違反國內的法令就沒事，這根本就抓不到！所以沒辦法抓，就變成一個漏洞，甚至就會有越多人開始仿效，政府不就是鼓勵大家採此作法？所以藥師全聯會已經炮轟中央政府都不管，數位部都只賣蚵仔麵線，打詐也不能打，到底在幹嘛？國人的健康可以等待嗎？這一種要你錢、要你命。院長，剛剛我們還提到您會戰戰兢兢的做到5月19，這件事情您可以幫忙協助處理嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：當然要啊！這個如果是一個詐騙的廣告，一定要隨時下架、即刻下架，這是很重要的，去年我們就有下架三萬多則。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝院長的正面回復，我們持續努力。但我要跟您報告，藥師全聯會都提到這件事情，代表已經有一段時間了，這件事情到現在都沒辦法處理好，我也希望5月19看到您是輝煌的回歸您原本人生的規劃，您把這個東西都做完，我們看到你能夠把它戰戰兢兢的做完，我們都很樂見其成，但我希望這件事情，全聯會他們已經都在說了，我們應該正視國人健康的這個問題，好嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我們會正視，這很重要。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝。我在這邊要謝謝陳建仁院長，行政院核定了臺中藍線，這條捷運計畫的總經費是1,615.14億元，未來完工後，不只臺中市民會受惠，全國國人來到臺中玩也都會一樣受惠。但是院長，中央的補助真的不能大小眼，您聽聽看，當初高捷興建的時候，六成由中央來負擔，四成由高雄市政府來負擔；現在中捷藍線興建，臺中市負擔939億，接近六成。要臺中市政府負擔六成的理由，新聞都有寫、都有指出，臺中市政府財務狀況改善了，財政等級由三級成為二級，對吧？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以由行政院認定臺中市政府的財政改善了，這是第一點。"],["陳院長建仁：這個有一個標準啦！"],["羅委員廷瑋：有標準，沒關係，我還要補充一下……"],["陳院長建仁：讓部長說一下。"],["羅委員廷瑋：等我一下、等我一下，待會我就會給您回復。院長，地方政府努力改善財政，我個人覺得要值得鼓勵啦！不管是口頭的，不管是實質的……"],["陳院長建仁：我實質鼓勵很多喔！"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是我看到的是，為什麼補助反而變少了？那不就意味著懲罰好學生，鼓勵大家不要當好學生嗎？我有PPT您看一下，這一張是各直轄市及縣市政府財力級次表，我們先看到左邊，不好意思，因為左邊被翻譯人員擋到了，我簡單跟您報告，左邊花蓮縣的財力級次是第五級，是第五級喔！院長，左邊是第五級，但是跑到右邊的表格，你們的表格，花蓮卻是唯一例外，它卻只有82%，不是90%。但今天我要跟您探討的是，第二級跟第三級的最高補助比例是70%到78%，兩者是差8%；第四級到第五級是82%到90%，這之間差了4%，對不起，82%到90%，也是差了8%。但三級到四級的時候，是78%到82%，這就差了4%而已喔！所以我想問一下，為什麼沒有一致性的等差比例，或者是固定比例的增幅？當時這樣子的一個表格、當時這樣的比例到底是怎麼訂的？是政治決定的嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，這個原則是大概我們每兩、三年公布一次，您剛才講臺中市的升級，事實上我們都會有獎勵金，據我知道，臺中市3年會得到3億的獎勵金，升級，謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我想還是很少啦！我們當然希望各縣市都是第一級啦！但是有可能嗎？不可能。我們應該不只是獎勵而已，這幾年，包括我們在地方一直在喊財政收支劃分法，我們希望前頭擁有這樣子這麼好的法令，讓各個縣市能夠公正、公開，後面這樣子的一個計畫性補助，我覺得也都減少，我覺得是雪上加霜。院長，能不能有機會，今天我們沒有對錯，我就是想跟你拜託，我們能夠再多補一些給臺中嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：這個部分，我們現在已經補給臺中很多了，臺中如果有什麼樣的計畫，它要提上來，我們會來審議，你也鼓勵臺中市政府加油。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝院長。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員廷瑋的質詢，謝謝陳院長的備詢。","報告院會，現在休息10分鐘，現在休息。","休息（15時49分）","繼續開會（16時）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","牛煦庭","王定宇","林沛祥","李柏毅","翁曉玲","蔡易餘","羅廷瑋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃建賓","郭昱晴","陳培瑜"],"page_start":16,"meetingDate":["2024-03-01"],"gazette_id":"1130501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130501_00002","1130501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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\"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 849.986, \"end\": 850.186, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"否\", \"start\": 850.186, \"end\": 850.426, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"識\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 850.426, \"end\": 850.526, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 850.526, \"end\": 850.566, \"score\": 0.498}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 850.566, \"end\": 850.586, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 852.826, \"end\": 871.054, \"text\": \"當N大於等於這個30的時候那他的那個95%訓練期間的測定值呢就是在可信的範圍內嘛所以這個是一般的食品檢驗的時候我們為什麼要用抽樣檢查的原理就在這裡這就是統計的重要性啊統計科學的重要性\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"N\", \"start\": 852.826, \"end\": 853.046, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 853.046, \"end\": 853.247, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 853.247, \"end\": 853.387, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 853.387, \"end\": 853.587, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 853.587, \"end\": 854.487, 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1734.211, \"text\": \"這一張是各直轄市的縣市政府財力及次表我們先看到左邊啦不好意思因為左邊被翻譯人員擋到了我簡單跟您報告左邊花蓮縣的財力及次是第五級是第五級喔院長左邊是第五級但是跑到右邊的表格你們的表格啦齁花蓮卻是唯一例外他卻只有82%\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1706.016, \"end\": 1706.456, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"張\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1706.456, \"end\": 1706.737, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 1706.737, \"end\": 1707.057, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 1707.057, \"end\": 1707.557, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"轄\"}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 1707.557, \"end\": 1707.757, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1707.757, \"end\": 1708.517, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"縣\"}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 1708.517, \"end\": 1708.798, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 1708.798, \"end\": 1709.038, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 1709.038, \"end\": 1709.838, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"財\"}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 1709.838, \"end\": 1710.459, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 1710.459, \"end\": 1710.759, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 1710.759, \"end\": 1710.959, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"表\", \"start\": 1710.959, \"end\": 1711.839, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1711.839, \"end\": 1712.039, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 1712.039, \"end\": 1712.219, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 1712.219, \"end\": 1712.38, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 1712.38, \"end\": 1712.6, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"左\", \"start\": 1712.6, \"end\": 1713.0, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 1713.0, \"end\": 1713.32, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1713.32, \"end\": 1713.44, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1713.44, \"end\": 1713.46, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 1713.46, \"end\": 1713.54, \"score\": 0.725}, {\"word\": \"思\", \"start\": 1713.54, \"end\": 1713.64, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 1713.64, \"end\": 1713.92, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"左\", \"start\": 1713.92, \"end\": 1714.501, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 1714.501, \"end\": 1715.181, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"翻\", \"start\": 1715.181, \"end\": 1715.421, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"譯\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 1715.421, \"end\": 1715.961, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"擋\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 1715.961, \"end\": 1716.142, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 1716.142, \"end\": 1716.682, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1716.682, \"end\": 1716.942, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"簡\"}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 1716.942, \"end\": 1717.022, \"score\": 0.756}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 1717.022, \"end\": 1717.322, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 1717.322, \"end\": 1718.123, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"左\", \"start\": 1718.123, \"end\": 1719.183, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"花\", \"start\": 1719.183, \"end\": 1720.064, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"蓮\"}, {\"word\": \"縣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1720.064, \"end\": 1720.844, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"財\"}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 1720.844, \"end\": 1721.224, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 1721.224, \"end\": 1721.504, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 1721.504, \"end\": 1722.125, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1722.125, \"end\": 1722.265, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 1722.265, \"end\": 1722.385, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 1722.385, \"end\": 1723.706, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"級\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1723.706, \"end\": 1723.866, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 1723.866, \"end\": 1723.986, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 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\"的\", \"start\": 1728.248, \"end\": 1728.348, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"表\", \"start\": 1728.348, \"end\": 1728.588, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"格\", \"start\": 1728.588, \"end\": 1728.808, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1728.808, \"end\": 1728.989, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1728.989, \"end\": 1729.089, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"表\", \"start\": 1729.089, \"end\": 1729.289, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"格\", \"start\": 1729.289, \"end\": 1729.449, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 1729.449, \"end\": 1730.269, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"齁\"}, {\"word\": \"花\", \"start\": 1730.269, \"end\": 1731.59, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"蓮\"}, {\"word\": \"卻\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1731.59, \"end\": 1731.87, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"唯\", \"start\": 1731.87, \"end\": 1732.09, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1732.09, \"end\": 1732.29, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 1732.29, \"end\": 1732.51, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 1732.51, \"end\": 1733.451, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 1733.451, \"end\": 1734.071, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"卻\"}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 1734.071, \"end\": 1734.191, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1734.191, \"end\": 1734.211, \"score\": 0.67}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"%\"}]}, {\"start\": 1736.336, \"end\": 1749.881, \"text\": \"不是90%但今天我要跟您探討的是第二級跟第三級最高的補助比例是70到78兩者是差8%第四級到第五級是82到90%這之間差了4%\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1736.336, \"end\": 1736.456, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1736.456, \"end\": 1737.517, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"%\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 1737.517, \"end\": 1737.677, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 1737.677, \"end\": 1737.797, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 1737.797, \"end\": 1737.957, 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{\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 1741.518, \"end\": 1741.738, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 1741.738, \"end\": 1741.898, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1741.898, \"end\": 1742.218, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"助\", \"start\": 1742.218, \"end\": 1742.418, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 1742.418, \"end\": 1742.578, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 1742.578, \"end\": 1742.718, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1742.718, \"end\": 1743.499, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 1743.499, \"end\": 1745.379, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 1745.379, \"end\": 1745.559, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1745.559, \"end\": 1745.74, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"差\", \"start\": 1745.74, \"end\": 1747.08, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"%\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 1747.08, \"end\": 1747.38, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"四\", \"start\": 1747.38, \"end\": 1747.86, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"級\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 1747.86, \"end\": 1748.18, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 1748.18, \"end\": 1748.541, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 1748.541, \"end\": 1749.281, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"級\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1749.281, \"end\": 1749.361, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 1749.361, \"end\": 1749.401, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"%\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 1749.401, \"end\": 1749.561, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"差\", \"start\": 1749.561, \"end\": 1749.861, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 1749.861, \"end\": 1749.881, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"%\"}]}, {\"start\": 1755.982, \"end\": 1779.936, \"text\": \"對不起82到90%也是差了8%但3級到4級的時候是78%到82%這就差了4%而已喔所以我想問一下為什麼沒有一致性的等差比例或者是固定比例的征服這當時這樣子的一個表格當時這樣的比例到底是怎麼定的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1755.982, \"end\": 1756.082, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 1756.082, \"end\": 1757.163, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 1757.163, \"end\": 1758.103, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"%\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 1758.103, \"end\": 1758.283, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1758.283, \"end\": 1758.484, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"差\", \"start\": 1758.484, \"end\": 1758.684, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 1758.684, \"end\": 1760.124, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"%\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 1760.124, \"end\": 1761.205, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"級\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 1761.205, \"end\": 1762.466, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"級\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1762.466, \"end\": 1762.766, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 1762.766, \"end\": 1763.066, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1763.066, \"end\": 1764.287, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"%\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 1764.287, \"end\": 1766.388, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"%\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1766.388, \"end\": 1766.548, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"差\", \"start\": 1766.548, \"end\": 1766.728, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 1766.728, \"end\": 1767.529, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"%\"}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 1767.529, \"end\": 1767.689, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 1767.689, \"end\": 1767.849, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"喔\", \"start\": 1767.849, \"end\": 1768.529, 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\"start\": 1770.851, \"end\": 1771.071, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 1771.071, \"end\": 1771.351, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"差\", \"start\": 1771.351, \"end\": 1771.671, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 1771.671, \"end\": 1771.871, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 1771.871, \"end\": 1772.331, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 1772.331, \"end\": 1772.592, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 1772.592, \"end\": 1772.712, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1772.712, \"end\": 1772.972, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"固\", \"start\": 1772.972, \"end\": 1773.292, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 1773.292, \"end\": 1773.592, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 1773.592, \"end\": 1773.832, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 1773.832, \"end\": 1774.012, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1774.012, \"end\": 1774.173, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"征\", 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00:01:18,386\n陳主委請問一下你卸任後的人生規劃方便跟大家提供一下嗎我在媒體上講得很清楚我是要回學校去任教因為我卸掉時間已經8年了已經到任了要回去教書那另外請問陳院長4位NCC的委員即將在7月要屆滿那我想這個4月底前要提名請問您目前有沒有這個提名的人選或者是條件\n\n4\n00:01:18,866 --> 00:01:37,429\n我們現在請各界來推薦那這個條件當然是具有電信資訊傳播法律或財經等專業學士或者是有實務經驗的這些人才我們來網絡他們來作為我們向大院推薦的這個人選\n\n5\n00:01:38,530 --> 00:02:05,605\n主委謝謝您剛剛有說出是條件那目前有沒有人選已經開始在稍微面試當然我們陸陸續續有請各界來推薦已經看起來應該是有人選了那沒關係就還在了解嘛是當然等你方便公佈的時候時間到了以後我們就會一定準時來向大院推薦主委謝謝您OK那另外我想有一些在我準備要跟您詢問之前另外有想詢問幾個問題\n\n6\n00:02:07,301 --> 00:02:32,535\n我想中國搶奪邦交國的企圖從未停歇那院長我想現在12個邦交國關係是否都穩固最穩固的你心中可不可以跟我們分享一下我想我們跟各個邦交國現在就是邦誼都相當的不錯那我們也會繼續來維持我們彼此作為一個自由民主的相同理念的夥伴我們彼此幫忙相互協助\n\n7\n00:02:33,015 --> 00:02:37,037\n您心目中有沒有覺得最穩固的是哪一個國家?您印象最深刻的呢?\n\n8\n00:02:50,536 --> 00:03:17,904\n沒有,院長您自己印象深刻的我印象深刻的其實有蠻多的搬家伙跟我們都相當好啊方便舉例嗎現在這方面我不方便啦沒關係沒關係那之前傳出帛琉有可能跟台灣斷交啦齁那大陸就想要挖牆角還要開架嘛說要訂滿所有帛琉飯店的房間結果華航宣布從7月起一週要變成4班航班\n\n9\n00:03:18,584 --> 00:03:37,454\n我想這是難道要挽救邦交國嗎?有這麼多人要搭嗎?是否有政治考量?部長回答委員的問題有關於我們台灣跟帛琉的關係的確是非常的穩固這個絕對沒有問題那但是我們跟帛琉之間的關係有很多的層面必須要進行合作\n\n10\n00:03:37,952 --> 00:03:38,072\n是嗎?\n\n11\n00:03:38,072 --> 00:03:38,132\n好OK\n\n12\n00:03:57,657 --> 00:04:25,126\n好那謝謝那以下呢我有準備幾個問題想要先詢問院長其中四個是是非題啦那其中一題是簡答題請院長簡單的回答我就可以了部長謝謝您謝謝這五題很簡單我想不需要靠其他人院長就有辦法自己來回答那我們先來看一下POPPOI我想詢問一下院長行政院所屬各機關及之下是政府辦理答覆立法委員質詢案件的處理原則院長您知不知道這個原則呢\n\n13\n00:04:26,173 --> 00:04:54,241\n我不太清楚這2016年的這個105年1月有修正那我想以現在來說應該都還適用給您參考一下但沒關係我會在後面再繼續說明依據原則的第九點來說本院交達之質詢案件如為代理代判院稿案件各機關應於第六點所定的秘書長所含文到十日內用院函回復立法院\n\n14\n00:04:54,941 --> 00:05:09,066\n我想換句話說,最簡單的講就是資料最慢10天內要回覆,對嗎?欸,照這個文章上是這樣寫。OK好,那我們再來看喔,食安法第五條規定PTT,那我想這個\n\n15\n00:05:11,167 --> 00:05:26,519\n議員長這個應該您非常熟悉您是公衛專家啦齁那我們再來看看食安法的第40條規定喔可以簡單來說就是各級主管機關在發布預警措施時對於所發布的食品衛生檢驗資訊時也應該同時公佈檢驗方法檢驗的單位還有結果判斷依據這樣子的簡單解讀對嗎?\n\n16\n00:05:37,058 --> 00:05:52,518\n對但是這裡有一個很重要的一個關鍵就是檢驗的結果必須是正確無誤的正確科學我之前有看到您有提到這樣子的一個質詢答覆我沒有問題沒有意見OKOK但是我想跟您詢問一下\n\n17\n00:05:53,699 --> 00:06:19,394\n再來就是我的簡答題跟您詢問,院長106年您身為中華民國的副總統,當時大家都說您是大人哥,還記得吧?那106年4月彰化地區的蛋機廠,雞蛋被驗出代澳星含量超標的事件。雞蛋到底怎麼會有代澳星?請說明源頭到底在哪裡?怎麼發生?最後結果怎麼樣?這個部分院長您可以回答我嗎?\n\n18\n00:06:20,735 --> 00:06:23,077\n根據輸入藥物邊境抽查的檢驗辦法第20條規定,\n\n19\n00:06:48,439 --> 00:07:03,109\n報驗醫務人於收受前向通知時,次日起15日內得向查驗機關申請復驗,但以一次為限復驗時由查驗機關就原抽取餘存樣品之。對不對?\n\n20\n00:07:05,067 --> 00:07:31,866\n這是法律規定的法律規定的嘛就是要抽樣品而且是原樣的抽樣餘品好那謝謝院長以上的答覆那我想我們繼續往下看我想院長您知道戴奧辛旦有被監察院糾正嗎您看一下這個糾正文監察院在106年1月8日糾正文呈現以下的事實一\n\n21\n00:07:33,171 --> 00:07:42,577\n清楚直接的點名找出源頭是中央政府的責任不是地方政府。二、戴奧欽的事實是存在的。\n\n22\n00:07:43,598 --> 00:08:06,848\n所以糾正當時的環保署農委會待於行政業務的踐行。三、若當時的農委會或環保署將此視為單一事件僅以產品端進行檢驗或驗證的時候,卻未能正視問題並積極地追查、防堵、待澳新污染食安的事件,仍將層出不窮。\n\n23\n00:08:07,808 --> 00:08:07,828\n院長﹖\n\n24\n00:08:26,083 --> 00:08:45,837\n您講臺中西部特羅案首次的檢驗驗出後沒給臺堂15天的復驗時間就進行公佈這是臺中市政府的錯但是院長市府依食安法第5條他就是需要公佈如果像您說的還要再等等等\n\n25\n00:08:46,578 --> 00:09:13,621\n等到中央說可以公布再公布。如果有一天監察院抓到太晚公布導致台中市政府的公務人員被糾察被懲處誰負責?難道行政院院長陳建仁院長您負責嗎?從今天早上的答覆您在牛許廷這個部分回覆說520之後您是堅定支持絕對不會再繼續擔任行政院長那您要怎麼負責?\n\n26\n00:09:14,775 --> 00:09:28,431\n您說台中市政府錯在太早公布了現在我們是公開直播我想問一下那如果您可以承諾以後類似有這樣子的公務人員被監察院糾正的時候\n\n27\n00:09:29,485 --> 00:09:53,561\n有人可以負責嗎?您敢在這邊直接說你會負責嗎?正確的科學那一件事情就是他必須要確定他檢驗的結果是正確那台中市政府的檢驗人員在同一塊肉做了很多次的檢驗前後的差距相差十倍以上那這個時候他自己也感到困惑\n\n28\n00:09:54,341 --> 00:09:58,003\n好的院長謝謝您的回覆那院長根據報導您指稱臺中市食安處實驗室的汙染是有可能的有可能的\n\n29\n00:10:22,059 --> 00:10:35,701\n而現在坐在臺下的鄭文燦副院長是直接直指不管用什麼方式表達都不會改變臺中市實驗室污染的這個事實。第三\n\n30\n00:10:37,011 --> 00:11:04,178\n我們現在可以看到臺中市衛生局長曾子展表示說實驗室的污染證據在哪裡而且先後有派官員專家來查看都定調實驗室沒有污染院長我今天想要特別請問的是請問一下實驗室污染的證據在哪裡您可以提出來嗎再來一個行政院有三種版本有可能這是事實\n\n31\n00:11:05,305 --> 00:11:11,313\n以及沒有汙染請問一下到底國人要怎麼樣才知道哪一個才是正確的答案\n\n32\n00:11:12,113 --> 00:11:36,749\n我想這件事情需要靠我們專家委員會來做最後的認定那專家委員會現在會議已經開完然後他們現在的報告要出來但是我在這裡要跟委員做報告的就是我們怎麼樣會認為他是有可能因為你可能也很清楚我在這裡講了很多次西部特羅實際上我們進口以後他只有0.8公克\n\n33\n00:11:37,830 --> 00:11:39,251\n我今天想請問您一個很簡單的問題我現在看到三種版本\n\n34\n00:11:57,919 --> 00:12:19,468\n您可不可以今天公開直播跟我確定一個版本是有可能的還是這是事實還是這是沒有不能排除不排除有污染的可能性好所以就是有可能嘛對吧三種版本我們找到了一個版本您說的就是有可能但我很遺憾的是有人說這是事實\n\n35\n00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:49,171\n這一點就這一點我們應該要抱持著應該要否定的態度我希望您維持我們有科學我們就等專家來判定嘛那現在是有可能汙染而不是事實而現在有人大言不慚的直接告訴我們所有的媒體這是事實我想這就是傷害台中市傷害所有的台中市願意認真去檢驗的這些公務人員所以\n\n36\n00:12:49,651 --> 00:13:11,864\n我們今天我跟您詢問的是有可能不排除對吧?對我跟您講的是這樣但是我要跟您報告就是說在接受媒體訪問的時候有些人在回答的時候呢那他你要看那個回答的時間啊等等啊看在哪一個時程裡面所做的這個結論比較好一點謝謝\n\n37\n00:13:14,059 --> 00:13:35,765\n那科學是講數據的政治才是拐彎抹角才是含沙射影才是有證據應該直接講明若沒有講的人應該道歉甚至應該直接下台我想根據媒體報導大約97%的肉量已經被吃掉了行政院指出本次抽驗同批的豬肉共計52件\n\n38\n00:13:37,199 --> 00:13:47,190\n我想可代表這都沒有檢測出乙型受體數且檢驗的數目符合科學統計的數目也就是抽樣數大於30\n\n39\n00:13:48,800 --> 00:14:10,586\n可代表母體,表示台糖豬肉安全無虞。我想就教於院長,抽驗數目符合科學統計數目,抽樣數大於30,可代表母體。不好意思,您是公衛專家,我不敢說我比你強。那我想請問一下,今天的這句話,可代表母體的依據是什麼?可否識之本教?\n\n40\n00:14:12,826 --> 00:14:31,054\n當N大於等於這個30的時候那他的那個95%訓練期間的測定值呢就是在可信的範圍內嘛所以這個是一般的食品檢驗的時候我們為什麼要用抽樣檢查的原理就在這裡這就是統計的重要性啊統計科學的重要性\n\n41\n00:14:31,254 --> 00:14:50,750\n那今天農業部跟衛福部兩部都共驗了2885件的樣品有關西部特羅都未檢出但台中市就是檢出來了那食藥署的相關單位也都去驗了台中市那一批也有驗出來而且台中市政府的這個實驗室也都是食藥署認證的衛福部長對吧?\n\n42\n00:14:52,010 --> 00:15:19,006\n是經過時報室認證的。那有驗出的話就要抓出問題在哪,不要再扯台中市政府作假。有,拜託你,抓出來讓我們知道台中市作假。如果沒有就不要一直講台中市。委員,但是這一個檢驗是在台中市政府的實驗室去驗出來有的。所以負責任的實驗室應該要去找出來為什麼他可以檢驗出來而別人檢驗不出來。好的。\n\n43\n00:15:19,326 --> 00:15:20,627\n他是實際上的檢驗者他有責任的責任來幫助協助對\n\n44\n00:15:38,624 --> 00:16:02,020\n那您能夠想像嗎?106年食藥署副署長林金富公開的強調告訴民眾不用恐慌根據資料顯示就算終生都吃戴奧辛蛋每日的平均曝露量仍低於世界衛生組織的建議值樣這樣子的向全民信心喊話我想當時他有這樣做出這樣子的一個喊話\n\n45\n00:16:03,201 --> 00:16:21,586\n如果他當時有做這樣的一個喊話而且他也參考了Codex就是這個世界上的這一個大澳新的含量的標準有這樣的一個依據那他按照數學上的計算他確實是沒有到達Codex的標準檢出跟達到這個國際標準\n\n46\n00:16:23,807 --> 00:16:52,630\n是檢出的量很低所以他做這樣的結論是符合科學的論證好的沒問題那院長您看本席多次發函食安辦所知這些所知的資料多久了本席跟你們要檢驗結果的判讀依據等資料這些都是已經存在的內容為什麼不能在10天內的期限交付本席依食安法規定檢驗的資訊要公開你都已經驗完了喔\n\n47\n00:16:53,511 --> 00:17:09,174\n公布檢驗的結果同時都應該載明偵測的定量極限值的判讀依據這些最基本的資料都已經是現成的不用再另外找答案為什麼遲遲沒有交給我我們辦公室所知很多天了\n\n48\n00:17:10,475 --> 00:17:38,391\n這個部分剛才您的您說的那個條文是含到後10天內但是因為這個比較細節我請部長看看他知道10天內對那我先你可以給我資料嗎我是沒有收到或看到委員要所知的內容我想我們公文來往都會有證據白紙黑紙沒關係我會回去再查查看我後面可以再貼給你看那是不是您可以給我資料\n\n49\n00:17:39,388 --> 00:18:08,428\n如果他是屬於一些可以公開的資料的話,這絕對沒有問題啦。這一次的檢驗報告我想剛講很清楚,實驗法規定檢驗資訊都應該要公開。所以應該沒有所謂的可公開跟不可公開吧。那我想這些公衛專家都很了解,判斷依據的這個原始資料檢驗的結果可信度占有極大的重要性。這個時候您跟我講的好像有一點點就是,好像內部有不能夠告知不能夠公開的,是這樣嗎?\n\n50\n00:18:09,669 --> 00:18:23,685\n如果是檢驗的數據的話那的確是可以公開但是我不知道委員要的數據的範圍到哪裡我要的範圍內一定都是食安法所規定的那我們會後再討論我再跟你要資料這樣可以嗎?好\n\n51\n00:18:24,726 --> 00:18:38,898\n數據就是科學,是資訊公開的,是法律規定的。而你現在,我不知道您剛剛給我的回應感覺好像都是有政治的感覺,好像我帶有惡意。因為如果是內部的簽程的過程的話,那個是可以不公開。\n\n52\n00:18:39,659 --> 00:18:55,396\nOK我要的就是資訊公開而且是法律規定可以公開的這些數據這樣子可以嗎?那我想我必須再提出一個您看PTT2016年4月民進黨立委許志傑舉國家環境獨物研究中心的研究報告\n\n53\n00:18:57,037 --> 00:19:24,214\n當時這一份報告當中有指稱開放瘦肉精美牛進口前2005年到2008年國人的尿液樣本當中約有1.39%到5.56%被驗出4種瘦肉精其中也包含西部特羅依此比例來換算國內恐高達將近115萬人左右來受害。院長我想\n\n54\n00:19:24,980 --> 00:19:42,911\n我的訴求越來越清楚,您聽聽看,既然國家環境毒物研究中心曾經在2005年到2008年做過這樣子的研究報告,為何中央在溯源管理人找不到源頭,這是我所疑慮的。但\n\n55\n00:19:43,551 --> 00:19:58,761\n西布特羅大家都知道比萊克多巴胺的毒性大10倍而且不容易代謝而且殘留的時間又更久我想這個嚴重性不容小覷所以我今天我想要拜託院長您剛剛也有在其他的委員提到\n\n56\n00:19:59,281 --> 00:20:16,578\n看守內閣要負責任戰戰兢兢的做到5月19日您是做事的院長我要拜託你院長西布特羅的同批豬肉有97%已經吃下肚本席為了臺中市市民的健康著想我懇求我也要求\n\n57\n00:20:17,299 --> 00:20:32,114\n中央比照國家環境獨物研究中心的研究報告案例辦理,編列經費給台中市政府,或者是其他的公部門再一次執行相關的研究報告,可以嗎?\n\n58\n00:20:33,956 --> 00:20:55,933\n首先我要講一下,你們三個委員的講法不一樣,一個要我有所有為,一個要我認真負責,一個叫我說你這個是Council內閣,你不能做任何事情。我就一句話,做你自己,您回答了5月19戰戰兢兢做到,您願意負責任嗎?那所以剛才的委員講錯了吧,好,那我現在想講的就是說,\n\n59\n00:20:57,254 --> 00:21:21,309\n對於這一個檢驗的部分那需要再做進一步的抽驗我們已經講好會對於這個豬肉我們本來要做2000件的我們會擴大做到4000件的這一個以這個metabroker這個做底數的檢驗我知道您有要擴大我都看過這些其他相關的對話那你現在要講說讓台中市政府\n\n60\n00:21:22,450 --> 00:21:22,690\n你說從尿液來檢驗喔?\n\n61\n00:21:47,982 --> 00:21:48,943\n我沒有說一千倍,我說十倍啦!\n\n62\n00:22:02,606 --> 00:22:06,469\n我要跟委員報告的就是說因為這所謂的瘦肉精其實它就有乙型瘦體素那乙型瘦體素的裡面的這些許多種的話其中有一些是在藥物裡面有\n\n63\n00:22:29,465 --> 00:22:54,859\n對,像我們的氣喘、感冒的時候也經常會用到。所以你去驗這些...所以2005年到2008年他所指出的這些報告當中是沒有用的。所以當時許智傑拿出這份報告有可能是吃藥然後看他當時的政府也是錯的嗎?您剛剛院長一直跟我強調上一個委員講的是錯的。那我現在是不是您間接打臉了許智傑拿出這一份報告\n\n64\n00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:21,133\n委員我要跟您講兩件事第一件事情那個時候瘦肉精都還有可能在臺灣在使用第二個這個檢驗出來的結果的解釋很重要我覺得做一個好的科學家你去檢驗出來有了你怎麼解釋呢如果這個乙型瘦體素本來就在藥物裡面那你檢驗的對象裡面檢驗的出來你怎麼分辨這是來自豬肉還是來自這個藥物呢\n\n65\n00:23:24,595 --> 00:23:50,497\n所以我想科學很重要。我很高興你強調科學。我在這邊沒有要跟您比個高下。我在這邊是希望能夠爭取這一個經費再一次做這樣子的研究報告。其實我覺得是利益良善。您也是為了國人的健康。我想這大家都可以再討論看看。那另外我想再跟您提問。院長您平常有滑臉書的習慣嗎?或者是看看LINE?\n\n66\n00:23:50,917 --> 00:23:51,277\n網路上購藥要小心。\n\n67\n00:24:17,878 --> 00:24:32,393\n教師全聯會也發出呼籲要求政府要重視這樣子的一個問題。院長今天有宣稱醫療效能的LINE臉書廣告到處充斥。針對該類廣告的處理方式\n\n68\n00:24:33,203 --> 00:25:01,495\n可以說一下嗎?我請衛福部來解釋。這基本上在藥事法裡面對這一類的話,就是應該要處罰。那不好意思,那如果IP都設在國外,國外怎麼處理?這是廣告的部分的話,那IP如果是在國外的確有它的困難,但是民眾要買藥一定是現實的那個藥在國內,所以我們可以來追啦。\n\n69\n00:25:02,563 --> 00:25:26,016\n這希望您追得到啦但是我必須跟您講國外廠商設架網站其廣告的內容違反國內的法定規定時因為管轄權不在國內所以無法約束制止該行為而如今業者都在國內網站刊登這種誇大不實宣稱醫療廣告違反藥事法、食安法等規定\n\n70\n00:25:27,728 --> 00:25:48,541\n但若是在國外架設網站國內刊登廣告違反國內的法令就沒事這根本就抓不到所以沒辦法抓就變成一個漏洞那甚至就會開始越多人仿效那政府不就是鼓勵大家採此做法\n\n71\n00:25:49,463 --> 00:25:57,235\n所以藥師全聯會已經砲轟中央政府都不管數位部都只賣蚵仔麵線\n\n72\n00:25:59,209 --> 00:26:23,288\n打詐也不能打,到底在幹嘛?國人的健康可以等待嗎?這一種要你錢要你命,我想,院長,剛剛我們還是提到您會戰戰兢兢地做到5月19,這件事情您可以幫忙協助處理嗎?當然要啊,這個如果說是一個詐騙的這個廣告一定要隨時下架,你即刻下架,這是很重要的。\n\n73\n00:26:24,469 --> 00:26:46,841\n那去年我們就下架有3萬多則了。好,謝謝院長正面的回覆,我們持續努力,但我要跟您報告,藥師全聯會都提到這件事情,代表已經有一段時間了。這件事情到現在都沒辦法處理好。我也希望5月19看到您是輝煌的去回歸您原本人生的規劃,那您把這個東西都做完,我們看到了這\n\n74\n00:26:47,521 --> 00:26:48,342\n行政院合訂了台中藍縣\n\n75\n00:27:07,041 --> 00:27:29,402\n這條捷運的計畫總經費1615.14億元。未來完工後不只臺中市民會受惠,全國國人來到臺中玩也都會一樣受惠。但是院長中央的補助啊真的不能大小眼。您聽聽看當初高捷興建的時候六成由中央來負擔,四成高雄市政府。\n\n76\n00:27:30,142 --> 00:27:57,504\n來負擔現在終結藍線興建臺中市負擔939億接近六成要臺中市政府負擔六成的理由新聞都有寫都有指出臺中市市府財務狀況改善了財政等級由三級成為二級對吧?對所以由行政院認定臺中市市政府的財政改善了\n\n77\n00:27:58,144 --> 00:28:24,835\n沒有沒有沒有這個有一個標準啦有標準啦沒關係那我還要補充一下等我一下等我一下待會我就會給您喔那院長地方政府努力改善財政我個人覺得要值得鼓勵啦不管是口頭的不管是實質的實質的啦實質鼓勵很多但是我看到的是為什麼補助反而變少了那不就意味著懲罰好學生鼓勵大家不要當好學生嗎那我有PTT您看一下\n\n78\n00:28:26,016 --> 00:28:54,211\n這一張是各直轄市的縣市政府財力及次表我們先看到左邊啦不好意思因為左邊被翻譯人員擋到了我簡單跟您報告左邊花蓮縣的財力及次是第五級是第五級喔院長左邊是第五級但是跑到右邊的表格你們的表格啦齁花蓮卻是唯一例外他卻只有82%\n\n79\n00:28:56,336 --> 00:29:09,881\n不是90%但今天我要跟您探討的是第二級跟第三級最高的補助比例是70到78兩者是差8%第四級到第五級是82到90%這之間差了4%\n\n80\n00:29:15,982 --> 00:29:39,936\n對不起82到90%也是差了8%但3級到4級的時候是78%到82%這就差了4%而已喔所以我想問一下為什麼沒有一致性的等差比例或者是固定比例的征服這當時這樣子的一個表格當時這樣的比例到底是怎麼定的\n\n81\n00:29:40,396 --> 00:30:07,133\n是政治決定的嗎?跟那個委員報告一下這個原則是多年來都是大概我們每兩三年公布一次那您剛才講的臺中市的升級事實上我們都會有獎勵金據我知道臺中市這個三年會多到3億的獎勵金升級謝謝我想還是很少啦我們當然希望各縣市的都是第一級啦但是有可能嗎?不可能\n\n82\n00:30:08,013 --> 00:30:29,315\n我們應該不只是獎勵而已我們想我們這幾年包括我們在地方一直在喊財政化分收支法我們希望能夠擁有這樣子前頭有擁有這樣這麼好的法令讓各個縣市能夠公正公開後面這樣子的一個補助計劃性補助我覺得也都減少我覺得是血\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5607\t31216\t謝謝院長 有請院長 謝謝麻煩請新任陳院長備詢 謝謝首先我可能也會關心NCC主委陳耀祥陳主委羅永文恭喜你當選立委院長謝謝您的恭喜 謝謝我想請問一下NCC主委來了謝謝\n37288\t52790\t主委,我想剛剛翁委員有提到在NCC這幾年有許多的爭議我想這些分分老老也都在你上一次有提到可能就不會再繼續擔任主委這一職我想請問一下NCC主委\n53667\t78386\t陳主委請問一下你卸任後的人生規劃方便跟大家提供一下嗎我在媒體上講得很清楚我是要回學校去任教因為我卸掉時間已經8年了已經到任了要回去教書那另外請問陳院長4位NCC的委員即將在7月要屆滿那我想這個4月底前要提名請問您目前有沒有這個提名的人選或者是條件\n78866\t97429\t我們現在請各界來推薦那這個條件當然是具有電信資訊傳播法律或財經等專業學士或者是有實務經驗的這些人才我們來網絡他們來作為我們向大院推薦的這個人選\n98530\t125605\t主委謝謝您剛剛有說出是條件那目前有沒有人選已經開始在稍微面試當然我們陸陸續續有請各界來推薦已經看起來應該是有人選了那沒關係就還在了解嘛是當然等你方便公佈的時候時間到了以後我們就會一定準時來向大院推薦主委謝謝您OK那另外我想有一些在我準備要跟您詢問之前另外有想詢問幾個問題\n127301\t152535\t我想中國搶奪邦交國的企圖從未停歇那院長我想現在12個邦交國關係是否都穩固最穩固的你心中可不可以跟我們分享一下我想我們跟各個邦交國現在就是邦誼都相當的不錯那我們也會繼續來維持我們彼此作為一個自由民主的相同理念的夥伴我們彼此幫忙相互協助\n153015\t157037\t您心目中有沒有覺得最穩固的是哪一個國家?您印象最深刻的呢?\n170536\t197904\t沒有,院長您自己印象深刻的我印象深刻的其實有蠻多的搬家伙跟我們都相當好啊方便舉例嗎現在這方面我不方便啦沒關係沒關係那之前傳出帛琉有可能跟台灣斷交啦齁那大陸就想要挖牆角還要開架嘛說要訂滿所有帛琉飯店的房間結果華航宣布從7月起一週要變成4班航班\n198584\t217454\t我想這是難道要挽救邦交國嗎?有這麼多人要搭嗎?是否有政治考量?部長回答委員的問題有關於我們台灣跟帛琉的關係的確是非常的穩固這個絕對沒有問題那但是我們跟帛琉之間的關係有很多的層面必須要進行合作\n217952\t218072\t是嗎?\n218072\t218132\t好 OK\n237657\t265126\t好那謝謝那以下呢我有準備幾個問題想要先詢問院長其中四個是是非題啦那其中一題是簡答題請院長簡單的回答我就可以了部長謝謝您謝謝這五題很簡單我想不需要靠其他人院長就有辦法自己來回答那我們先來看一下POPPOI我想詢問一下院長行政院所屬各機關及之下是政府辦理答覆立法委員質詢案件的處理原則院長您知不知道這個原則呢\n266173\t294241\t我不太清楚這2016年的這個105年1月有修正那我想以現在來說應該都還適用給您參考一下但沒關係我會在後面再繼續說明依據原則的第九點來說本院交達之質詢案件如為代理代判院稿案件各機關應於第六點所定的秘書長所含文到十日內用院函回復立法院\n294941\t309066\t我想換句話說,最簡單的講就是資料最慢10天內要回覆,對嗎?欸,照這個文章上是這樣寫。OK好,那我們再來看喔,食安法第五條規定PTT,那我想這個\n311167\t326519\t議員長 這個應該您非常熟悉您是公衛專家啦齁那我們再來看看食安法的第40條規定喔可以簡單來說就是各級主管機關在發布預警措施時對於所發布的食品衛生檢驗資訊時也應該同時公佈檢驗方法檢驗的單位還有結果判斷依據這樣子的簡單解讀對嗎?\n337058\t352518\t對但是這裡有一個很重要的一個關鍵就是檢驗的結果必須是正確無誤的正確科學我之前有看到您有提到這樣子的一個質詢答覆我沒有問題沒有意見OKOK但是我想跟您詢問一下\n353699\t379394\t再來就是我的簡答題跟您詢問,院長106年您身為中華民國的副總統,當時大家都說您是大人哥,還記得吧?那106年4月彰化地區的蛋機廠,雞蛋被驗出代澳星含量超標的事件。雞蛋到底怎麼會有代澳星?請說明源頭到底在哪裡?怎麼發生?最後結果怎麼樣?這個部分院長您可以回答我嗎?\n380735\t383077\t根據輸入藥物邊境抽查的檢驗辦法第20條規定,\n408439\t423109\t報驗醫務人於收受前向通知時,次日起15日內得向查驗機關申請復驗,但以一次為限復驗時由查驗機關就原抽取餘存樣品之。對不對?\n425067\t451866\t這是法律規定的法律規定的嘛就是要抽樣品而且是原樣的抽樣餘品好那謝謝院長以上的答覆那我想我們繼續往下看我想院長您知道戴奧辛旦有被監察院糾正嗎您看一下這個糾正文監察院在106年1月8日糾正文呈現以下的事實一\n453171\t462577\t清楚直接的點名找出源頭是中央政府的責任不是地方政府。二、戴奧欽的事實是存在的。\n463598\t486848\t所以糾正當時的環保署農委會待於行政業務的踐行。三、若當時的農委會或環保署將此視為單一事件僅以產品端進行檢驗或驗證的時候,卻未能正視問題並積極地追查、防堵、待澳新污染食安的事件,仍將層出不窮。\n487808\t487828\t院長﹖\n506083\t525837\t您講臺中西部特羅案首次的檢驗驗出後沒給臺堂15天的復驗時間就進行公佈這是臺中市政府的錯但是院長市府依食安法第5條他就是需要公佈如果像您說的還要再等等等\n526578\t553621\t等到中央說可以公布再公布。如果有一天監察院抓到太晚公布導致台中市政府的公務人員被糾察被懲處誰負責?難道行政院院長陳建仁院長您負責嗎?從今天早上的答覆您在牛許廷這個部分回覆說520之後您是堅定支持絕對不會再繼續擔任行政院長那您要怎麼負責?\n554775\t568431\t您說台中市政府錯在太早公布了現在我們是公開直播我想問一下那如果您可以承諾以後類似有這樣子的公務人員被監察院糾正的時候\n569485\t593561\t有人可以負責嗎?您敢在這邊直接說你會負責嗎?正確的科學那一件事情就是他必須要確定他檢驗的結果是正確那台中市政府的檢驗人員在同一塊肉做了很多次的檢驗前後的差距相差十倍以上那這個時候他自己也感到困惑\n594341\t598003\t好的 院長謝謝您的回覆那院長根據報導您指稱臺中市食安處實驗室的汙染是有可能的有可能的\n622059\t635701\t而現在坐在臺下的鄭文燦副院長是直接直指不管用什麼方式表達都不會改變臺中市實驗室污染的這個事實。第三\n637011\t664178\t我們現在可以看到臺中市衛生局長曾子展表示說實驗室的污染證據在哪裡而且先後有派官員專家來查看都定調實驗室沒有污染院長我今天想要特別請問的是請問一下實驗室污染的證據在哪裡您可以提出來嗎再來一個行政院有三種版本有可能這是事實\n665305\t671313\t以及沒有汙染請問一下到底國人要怎麼樣才知道哪一個才是正確的答案\n672113\t696749\t我想這件事情需要靠我們專家委員會來做最後的認定那專家委員會現在會議已經開完然後他們現在的報告要出來但是我在這裡要跟委員做報告的就是我們怎麼樣會認為他是有可能因為你可能也很清楚我在這裡講了很多次西部特羅實際上我們進口以後他只有0.8公克\n697830\t699251\t我今天想請問您一個很簡單的問題我現在看到三種版本\n717919\t739468\t您可不可以今天公開直播跟我確定一個版本是有可能的還是這是事實還是這是沒有不能排除不排除有污染的可能性好所以就是有可能嘛對吧三種版本我們找到了一個版本您說的就是有可能但我很遺憾的是有人說這是事實\n741000\t769171\t這一點就這一點我們應該要抱持著應該要否定的態度我希望您維持我們有科學我們就等專家來判定嘛那現在是有可能汙染而不是事實而現在有人大言不慚的直接告訴我們所有的媒體這是事實我想這就是傷害台中市傷害所有的台中市願意認真去檢驗的這些公務人員所以\n769651\t791864\t我們今天我跟您詢問的是有可能不排除對吧?對我跟您講的是這樣但是我要跟您報告就是說在接受媒體訪問的時候有些人在回答的時候呢那他你要看那個回答的時間啊等等啊看在哪一個時程裡面所做的這個結論比較好一點謝謝\n794059\t815765\t那科學是講數據的政治才是拐彎抹角才是含沙射影才是有證據應該直接講明若沒有講的人應該道歉甚至應該直接下台我想根據媒體報導大約97%的肉量已經被吃掉了行政院指出本次抽驗同批的豬肉共計52件\n817199\t827190\t我想可代表這都沒有檢測出乙型受體數且檢驗的數目符合科學統計的數目也就是抽樣數大於30\n828800\t850586\t可代表母體,表示台糖豬肉安全無虞。我想就教於院長,抽驗數目符合科學統計數目,抽樣數大於30,可代表母體。不好意思,您是公衛專家,我不敢說我比你強。那我想請問一下,今天的這句話,可代表母體的依據是什麼?可否識之本教?\n852826\t871054\t當N大於等於這個30的時候那他的那個95%訓練期間的測定值呢就是在可信的範圍內嘛所以這個是一般的食品檢驗的時候我們為什麼要用抽樣檢查的原理就在這裡這就是統計的重要性啊統計科學的重要性\n871254\t890750\t那今天農業部跟衛福部兩部都共驗了2885件的樣品有關西部特羅都未檢出但台中市就是檢出來了那食藥署的相關單位也都去驗了台中市那一批也有驗出來而且台中市政府的這個實驗室也都是食藥署認證的衛福部長對吧?\n892010\t919006\t是經過時報室認證的。那有驗出的話就要抓出問題在哪,不要再扯台中市政府作假。有,拜託你,抓出來讓我們知道台中市作假。如果沒有就不要一直講台中市。委員,但是這一個檢驗是在台中市政府的實驗室去驗出來有的。所以負責任的實驗室應該要去找出來為什麼他可以檢驗出來而別人檢驗不出來。好的。\n919326\t920627\t他是實際上的檢驗者他有責任的責任來幫助協助對\n938624\t962020\t那您能夠想像嗎?106年食藥署副署長林金富公開的強調告訴民眾不用恐慌根據資料顯示就算終生都吃戴奧辛蛋每日的平均曝露量仍低於世界衛生組織的建議值樣這樣子的向全民信心喊話我想當時他有這樣做出這樣子的一個喊話\n963201\t981586\t如果他當時有做這樣的一個喊話而且他也參考了Codex就是這個世界上的這一個大澳新的含量的標準有這樣的一個依據那他按照數學上的計算他確實是沒有到達Codex的標準檢出跟達到這個國際標準\n983807\t1012630\t是檢出的量很低所以他做這樣的結論是符合科學的論證好的沒問題那院長您看本席多次發函食安辦所知這些所知的資料多久了本席跟你們要檢驗結果的判讀依據等資料這些都是已經存在的內容為什麼不能在10天內的期限交付本席依食安法規定檢驗的資訊要公開你都已經驗完了喔\n1013511\t1029174\t公布檢驗的結果同時都應該載明偵測的定量極限值的判讀依據這些最基本的資料都已經是現成的不用再另外找答案為什麼遲遲沒有交給我我們辦公室所知很多天了\n1030475\t1058391\t這個部分剛才您的您說的那個條文是含到後10天內但是因為這個比較細節我請部長看看他知道10天內對那我先你可以給我資料嗎我是沒有收到或看到委員要所知的內容我想我們公文來往都會有證據白紙黑紙沒關係我會回去再查查看我後面可以再貼給你看那是不是您可以給我資料\n1059388\t1088428\t如果他是屬於一些可以公開的資料的話,這絕對沒有問題啦。這一次的檢驗報告我想剛講很清楚,實驗法規定檢驗資訊都應該要公開。所以應該沒有所謂的可公開跟不可公開吧。那我想這些公衛專家都很了解,判斷依據的這個原始資料檢驗的結果可信度占有極大的重要性。這個時候您跟我講的好像有一點點就是,好像內部有不能夠告知不能夠公開的,是這樣嗎?\n1089669\t1103685\t如果是檢驗的數據的話那的確是可以公開但是我不知道委員要的數據的範圍到哪裡我要的範圍內一定都是食安法所規定的那我們會後再討論我再跟你要資料這樣可以嗎?好\n1104726\t1118898\t數據就是科學,是資訊公開的,是法律規定的。而你現在,我不知道您剛剛給我的回應感覺好像都是有政治的感覺,好像我帶有惡意。因為如果是內部的簽程的過程的話,那個是可以不公開。\n1119659\t1135396\tOK 我要的就是資訊公開而且是法律規定可以公開的這些數據這樣子可以嗎?那我想我必須再提出一個您看PTT2016年4月民進黨立委許志傑舉國家環境獨物研究中心的研究報告\n1137037\t1164214\t當時這一份報告當中有指稱開放瘦肉精美牛進口前2005年到2008年國人的尿液樣本當中約有1.39%到5.56%被驗出4種瘦肉精其中也包含西部特羅依此比例來換算國內恐高達將近115萬人左右來受害。院長我想\n1164980\t1182911\t我的訴求越來越清楚,您聽聽看,既然國家環境毒物研究中心曾經在2005年到2008年做過這樣子的研究報告,為何中央在溯源管理人找不到源頭,這是我所疑慮的。但\n1183551\t1198761\t西布特羅大家都知道比萊克多巴胺的毒性大10倍而且不容易代謝而且殘留的時間又更久我想這個嚴重性不容小覷所以我今天我想要拜託院長您剛剛也有在其他的委員提到\n1199281\t1216578\t看守內閣要負責任戰戰兢兢的做到5月19日您是做事的院長我要拜託你院長西布特羅的同批豬肉有97%已經吃下肚本席為了臺中市市民的健康著想我懇求我也要求\n1217299\t1232114\t中央比照國家環境獨物研究中心的研究報告案例辦理,編列經費給台中市政府,或者是其他的公部門再一次執行相關的研究報告,可以嗎?\n1233956\t1255933\t首先我要講一下,你們三個委員的講法不一樣,一個要我有所有為,一個要我認真負責,一個叫我說你這個是Council內閣,你不能做任何事情。我就一句話,做你自己,您回答了5月19戰戰兢兢做到,您願意負責任嗎?那所以剛才的委員講錯了吧,好,那我現在想講的就是說,\n1257254\t1281309\t對於這一個檢驗的部分那需要再做進一步的抽驗我們已經講好會對於這個豬肉我們本來要做2000件的我們會擴大做到4000件的這一個以這個meta broker這個做底數的檢驗我知道您有要擴大我都看過這些其他相關的對話那你現在要講說讓台中市政府\n1282450\t1282690\t你說從尿液來檢驗喔?\n1307982\t1308943\t我沒有說一千倍,我說十倍啦!\n1322606\t1326469\t我要跟委員報告的就是說因為這所謂的瘦肉精其實它就有乙型瘦體素那乙型瘦體素的裡面的這些許多種的話其中有一些是在藥物裡面有\n1349465\t1374859\t對,像我們的氣喘、感冒的時候也經常會用到。所以你去驗這些...所以2005年到2008年他所指出的這些報告當中是沒有用的。所以當時許智傑拿出這份報告有可能是吃藥然後看他當時的政府也是錯的嗎?您剛剛院長一直跟我強調上一個委員講的是錯的。那我現在是不是您間接打臉了許智傑拿出這一份報告\n1376680\t1401133\t委員我要跟您講兩件事第一件事情那個時候瘦肉精都還有可能在臺灣在使用第二個這個檢驗出來的結果的解釋很重要我覺得做一個好的科學家你去檢驗出來有了你怎麼解釋呢如果這個乙型瘦體素本來就在藥物裡面那你檢驗的對象裡面檢驗的出來你怎麼分辨這是來自豬肉還是來自這個藥物呢\n1404595\t1430497\t所以我想科學很重要。我很高興你強調科學。我在這邊沒有要跟您比個高下。我在這邊是希望能夠爭取這一個經費再一次做這樣子的研究報告。其實我覺得是利益良善。您也是為了國人的健康。我想這大家都可以再討論看看。那另外我想再跟您提問。院長您平常有滑臉書的習慣嗎?或者是看看LINE?\n1430917\t1431277\t網路上購藥要小心。\n1457878\t1472393\t教師全聯會也發出呼籲要求政府要重視這樣子的一個問題。院長今天有宣稱醫療效能的LINE臉書廣告到處充斥。針對該類廣告的處理方式\n1473203\t1501495\t可以說一下嗎?我請衛福部來解釋。這基本上在藥事法裡面對這一類的話,就是應該要處罰。那不好意思,那如果IP都設在國外,國外怎麼處理?這是廣告的部分的話,那IP如果是在國外的確有它的困難,但是民眾要買藥一定是現實的那個藥在國內,所以我們可以來追啦。\n1502563\t1526016\t這希望您追得到啦但是我必須跟您講國外廠商設架網站其廣告的內容違反國內的法定規定時因為管轄權不在國內所以無法約束制止該行為而如今業者都在國內網站刊登這種誇大不實宣稱醫療廣告違反藥事法、食安法等規定\n1527728\t1548541\t但若是在國外架設網站國內刊登廣告違反國內的法令就沒事這根本就抓不到所以沒辦法抓就變成一個漏洞那甚至就會開始越多人仿效那政府不就是鼓勵大家採此做法\n1549463\t1557235\t所以藥師全聯會已經砲轟中央政府都不管數位部都只賣蚵仔麵線\n1559209\t1583288\t打詐也不能打,到底在幹嘛?國人的健康可以等待嗎?這一種要你錢要你命,我想,院長,剛剛我們還是提到您會戰戰兢兢地做到5月19,這件事情您可以幫忙協助處理嗎?當然要啊,這個如果說是一個詐騙的這個廣告一定要隨時下架,你即刻下架,這是很重要的。\n1584469\t1606841\t那去年我們就下架有3萬多則了。好,謝謝院長正面的回覆,我們持續努力,但我要跟您報告,藥師全聯會都提到這件事情,代表已經有一段時間了。這件事情到現在都沒辦法處理好。我也希望5月19看到您是輝煌的去回歸您原本人生的規劃,那您把這個東西都做完,我們看到了這\n1607521\t1608342\t行政院合訂了台中藍縣\n1627041\t1649402\t這條捷運的計畫總經費1615.14億元。未來完工後不只臺中市民會受惠,全國國人來到臺中玩也都會一樣受惠。但是院長中央的補助啊真的不能大小眼。您聽聽看當初高捷興建的時候六成由中央來負擔,四成高雄市政府。\n1650142\t1677504\t來負擔現在終結藍線興建臺中市負擔939億接近六成要臺中市政府負擔六成的理由新聞都有寫都有指出臺中市市府財務狀況改善了財政等級由三級成為二級對吧?對所以由行政院認定臺中市市政府的財政改善了\n1678144\t1704835\t沒有沒有沒有 這個有一個標準啦有標準啦沒關係那我還要補充一下等我一下等我一下待會我就會給您喔那院長地方政府努力改善財政我個人覺得要值得鼓勵啦不管是口頭的不管是實質的實質的啦實質鼓勵很多但是我看到的是為什麼補助反而變少了那不就意味著懲罰好學生鼓勵大家不要當好學生嗎那我有PTT您看一下\n1706016\t1734211\t這一張是各直轄市的縣市政府財力及次表我們先看到左邊啦不好意思因為左邊被翻譯人員擋到了我簡單跟您報告左邊花蓮縣的財力及次是第五級是第五級喔院長左邊是第五級但是跑到右邊的表格你們的表格啦齁花蓮卻是唯一例外他卻只有82%\n1736336\t1749881\t不是90%但今天我要跟您探討的是第二級跟第三級最高的補助比例是70到78兩者是差8%第四級到第五級是82到90%這之間差了4%\n1755982\t1779936\t對不起82到90%也是差了8%但3級到4級的時候是78%到82%這就差了4%而已喔所以我想問一下為什麼沒有一致性的等差比例或者是固定比例的征服這當時這樣子的一個表格當時這樣的比例到底是怎麼定的\n1780396\t1807133\t是政治決定的嗎?跟那個委員報告一下這個原則是多年來都是大概我們每兩三年公布一次那您剛才講的臺中市的升級事實上我們都會有獎勵金據我知道臺中市這個三年會多到3億的獎勵金升級謝謝我想還是很少啦我們當然希望各縣市的都是第一級啦但是有可能嗎?不可能\n1808013\t1829315\t我們應該不只是獎勵而已我們想我們這幾年包括我們在地方一直在喊財政化分收支法我們希望能夠擁有這樣子前頭有擁有這樣這麼好的法令讓各個縣市能夠公正公開後面這樣子的一個補助計劃性補助我覺得也都減少我覺得是血\n","txt":"謝謝院長 有請院長 謝謝麻煩請新任陳院長備詢 謝謝首先我可能也會關心NCC主委陳耀祥陳主委羅永文恭喜你當選立委院長謝謝您的恭喜 謝謝我想請問一下NCC主委來了謝謝\n主委,我想剛剛翁委員有提到在NCC這幾年有許多的爭議我想這些分分老老也都在你上一次有提到可能就不會再繼續擔任主委這一職我想請問一下NCC主委\n陳主委請問一下你卸任後的人生規劃方便跟大家提供一下嗎我在媒體上講得很清楚我是要回學校去任教因為我卸掉時間已經8年了已經到任了要回去教書那另外請問陳院長4位NCC的委員即將在7月要屆滿那我想這個4月底前要提名請問您目前有沒有這個提名的人選或者是條件\n我們現在請各界來推薦那這個條件當然是具有電信資訊傳播法律或財經等專業學士或者是有實務經驗的這些人才我們來網絡他們來作為我們向大院推薦的這個人選\n主委謝謝您剛剛有說出是條件那目前有沒有人選已經開始在稍微面試當然我們陸陸續續有請各界來推薦已經看起來應該是有人選了那沒關係就還在了解嘛是當然等你方便公佈的時候時間到了以後我們就會一定準時來向大院推薦主委謝謝您OK那另外我想有一些在我準備要跟您詢問之前另外有想詢問幾個問題\n我想中國搶奪邦交國的企圖從未停歇那院長我想現在12個邦交國關係是否都穩固最穩固的你心中可不可以跟我們分享一下我想我們跟各個邦交國現在就是邦誼都相當的不錯那我們也會繼續來維持我們彼此作為一個自由民主的相同理念的夥伴我們彼此幫忙相互協助\n您心目中有沒有覺得最穩固的是哪一個國家?您印象最深刻的呢?\n沒有,院長您自己印象深刻的我印象深刻的其實有蠻多的搬家伙跟我們都相當好啊方便舉例嗎現在這方面我不方便啦沒關係沒關係那之前傳出帛琉有可能跟台灣斷交啦齁那大陸就想要挖牆角還要開架嘛說要訂滿所有帛琉飯店的房間結果華航宣布從7月起一週要變成4班航班\n我想這是難道要挽救邦交國嗎?有這麼多人要搭嗎?是否有政治考量?部長回答委員的問題有關於我們台灣跟帛琉的關係的確是非常的穩固這個絕對沒有問題那但是我們跟帛琉之間的關係有很多的層面必須要進行合作\n是嗎?\n好 OK\n好那謝謝那以下呢我有準備幾個問題想要先詢問院長其中四個是是非題啦那其中一題是簡答題請院長簡單的回答我就可以了部長謝謝您謝謝這五題很簡單我想不需要靠其他人院長就有辦法自己來回答那我們先來看一下POPPOI我想詢問一下院長行政院所屬各機關及之下是政府辦理答覆立法委員質詢案件的處理原則院長您知不知道這個原則呢\n我不太清楚這2016年的這個105年1月有修正那我想以現在來說應該都還適用給您參考一下但沒關係我會在後面再繼續說明依據原則的第九點來說本院交達之質詢案件如為代理代判院稿案件各機關應於第六點所定的秘書長所含文到十日內用院函回復立法院\n我想換句話說,最簡單的講就是資料最慢10天內要回覆,對嗎?欸,照這個文章上是這樣寫。OK好,那我們再來看喔,食安法第五條規定PTT,那我想這個\n議員長 這個應該您非常熟悉您是公衛專家啦齁那我們再來看看食安法的第40條規定喔可以簡單來說就是各級主管機關在發布預警措施時對於所發布的食品衛生檢驗資訊時也應該同時公佈檢驗方法檢驗的單位還有結果判斷依據這樣子的簡單解讀對嗎?\n對但是這裡有一個很重要的一個關鍵就是檢驗的結果必須是正確無誤的正確科學我之前有看到您有提到這樣子的一個質詢答覆我沒有問題沒有意見OKOK但是我想跟您詢問一下\n再來就是我的簡答題跟您詢問,院長106年您身為中華民國的副總統,當時大家都說您是大人哥,還記得吧?那106年4月彰化地區的蛋機廠,雞蛋被驗出代澳星含量超標的事件。雞蛋到底怎麼會有代澳星?請說明源頭到底在哪裡?怎麼發生?最後結果怎麼樣?這個部分院長您可以回答我嗎?\n根據輸入藥物邊境抽查的檢驗辦法第20條規定,\n報驗醫務人於收受前向通知時,次日起15日內得向查驗機關申請復驗,但以一次為限復驗時由查驗機關就原抽取餘存樣品之。對不對?\n這是法律規定的法律規定的嘛就是要抽樣品而且是原樣的抽樣餘品好那謝謝院長以上的答覆那我想我們繼續往下看我想院長您知道戴奧辛旦有被監察院糾正嗎您看一下這個糾正文監察院在106年1月8日糾正文呈現以下的事實一\n清楚直接的點名找出源頭是中央政府的責任不是地方政府。二、戴奧欽的事實是存在的。\n所以糾正當時的環保署農委會待於行政業務的踐行。三、若當時的農委會或環保署將此視為單一事件僅以產品端進行檢驗或驗證的時候,卻未能正視問題並積極地追查、防堵、待澳新污染食安的事件,仍將層出不窮。\n院長﹖\n您講臺中西部特羅案首次的檢驗驗出後沒給臺堂15天的復驗時間就進行公佈這是臺中市政府的錯但是院長市府依食安法第5條他就是需要公佈如果像您說的還要再等等等\n等到中央說可以公布再公布。如果有一天監察院抓到太晚公布導致台中市政府的公務人員被糾察被懲處誰負責?難道行政院院長陳建仁院長您負責嗎?從今天早上的答覆您在牛許廷這個部分回覆說520之後您是堅定支持絕對不會再繼續擔任行政院長那您要怎麼負責?\n您說台中市政府錯在太早公布了現在我們是公開直播我想問一下那如果您可以承諾以後類似有這樣子的公務人員被監察院糾正的時候\n有人可以負責嗎?您敢在這邊直接說你會負責嗎?正確的科學那一件事情就是他必須要確定他檢驗的結果是正確那台中市政府的檢驗人員在同一塊肉做了很多次的檢驗前後的差距相差十倍以上那這個時候他自己也感到困惑\n好的 院長謝謝您的回覆那院長根據報導您指稱臺中市食安處實驗室的汙染是有可能的有可能的\n而現在坐在臺下的鄭文燦副院長是直接直指不管用什麼方式表達都不會改變臺中市實驗室污染的這個事實。第三\n我們現在可以看到臺中市衛生局長曾子展表示說實驗室的污染證據在哪裡而且先後有派官員專家來查看都定調實驗室沒有污染院長我今天想要特別請問的是請問一下實驗室污染的證據在哪裡您可以提出來嗎再來一個行政院有三種版本有可能這是事實\n以及沒有汙染請問一下到底國人要怎麼樣才知道哪一個才是正確的答案\n我想這件事情需要靠我們專家委員會來做最後的認定那專家委員會現在會議已經開完然後他們現在的報告要出來但是我在這裡要跟委員做報告的就是我們怎麼樣會認為他是有可能因為你可能也很清楚我在這裡講了很多次西部特羅實際上我們進口以後他只有0.8公克\n我今天想請問您一個很簡單的問題我現在看到三種版本\n您可不可以今天公開直播跟我確定一個版本是有可能的還是這是事實還是這是沒有不能排除不排除有污染的可能性好所以就是有可能嘛對吧三種版本我們找到了一個版本您說的就是有可能但我很遺憾的是有人說這是事實\n這一點就這一點我們應該要抱持著應該要否定的態度我希望您維持我們有科學我們就等專家來判定嘛那現在是有可能汙染而不是事實而現在有人大言不慚的直接告訴我們所有的媒體這是事實我想這就是傷害台中市傷害所有的台中市願意認真去檢驗的這些公務人員所以\n我們今天我跟您詢問的是有可能不排除對吧?對我跟您講的是這樣但是我要跟您報告就是說在接受媒體訪問的時候有些人在回答的時候呢那他你要看那個回答的時間啊等等啊看在哪一個時程裡面所做的這個結論比較好一點謝謝\n那科學是講數據的政治才是拐彎抹角才是含沙射影才是有證據應該直接講明若沒有講的人應該道歉甚至應該直接下台我想根據媒體報導大約97%的肉量已經被吃掉了行政院指出本次抽驗同批的豬肉共計52件\n我想可代表這都沒有檢測出乙型受體數且檢驗的數目符合科學統計的數目也就是抽樣數大於30\n可代表母體,表示台糖豬肉安全無虞。我想就教於院長,抽驗數目符合科學統計數目,抽樣數大於30,可代表母體。不好意思,您是公衛專家,我不敢說我比你強。那我想請問一下,今天的這句話,可代表母體的依據是什麼?可否識之本教?\n當N大於等於這個30的時候那他的那個95%訓練期間的測定值呢就是在可信的範圍內嘛所以這個是一般的食品檢驗的時候我們為什麼要用抽樣檢查的原理就在這裡這就是統計的重要性啊統計科學的重要性\n那今天農業部跟衛福部兩部都共驗了2885件的樣品有關西部特羅都未檢出但台中市就是檢出來了那食藥署的相關單位也都去驗了台中市那一批也有驗出來而且台中市政府的這個實驗室也都是食藥署認證的衛福部長對吧?\n是經過時報室認證的。那有驗出的話就要抓出問題在哪,不要再扯台中市政府作假。有,拜託你,抓出來讓我們知道台中市作假。如果沒有就不要一直講台中市。委員,但是這一個檢驗是在台中市政府的實驗室去驗出來有的。所以負責任的實驗室應該要去找出來為什麼他可以檢驗出來而別人檢驗不出來。好的。\n他是實際上的檢驗者他有責任的責任來幫助協助對\n那您能夠想像嗎?106年食藥署副署長林金富公開的強調告訴民眾不用恐慌根據資料顯示就算終生都吃戴奧辛蛋每日的平均曝露量仍低於世界衛生組織的建議值樣這樣子的向全民信心喊話我想當時他有這樣做出這樣子的一個喊話\n如果他當時有做這樣的一個喊話而且他也參考了Codex就是這個世界上的這一個大澳新的含量的標準有這樣的一個依據那他按照數學上的計算他確實是沒有到達Codex的標準檢出跟達到這個國際標準\n是檢出的量很低所以他做這樣的結論是符合科學的論證好的沒問題那院長您看本席多次發函食安辦所知這些所知的資料多久了本席跟你們要檢驗結果的判讀依據等資料這些都是已經存在的內容為什麼不能在10天內的期限交付本席依食安法規定檢驗的資訊要公開你都已經驗完了喔\n公布檢驗的結果同時都應該載明偵測的定量極限值的判讀依據這些最基本的資料都已經是現成的不用再另外找答案為什麼遲遲沒有交給我我們辦公室所知很多天了\n這個部分剛才您的您說的那個條文是含到後10天內但是因為這個比較細節我請部長看看他知道10天內對那我先你可以給我資料嗎我是沒有收到或看到委員要所知的內容我想我們公文來往都會有證據白紙黑紙沒關係我會回去再查查看我後面可以再貼給你看那是不是您可以給我資料\n如果他是屬於一些可以公開的資料的話,這絕對沒有問題啦。這一次的檢驗報告我想剛講很清楚,實驗法規定檢驗資訊都應該要公開。所以應該沒有所謂的可公開跟不可公開吧。那我想這些公衛專家都很了解,判斷依據的這個原始資料檢驗的結果可信度占有極大的重要性。這個時候您跟我講的好像有一點點就是,好像內部有不能夠告知不能夠公開的,是這樣嗎?\n如果是檢驗的數據的話那的確是可以公開但是我不知道委員要的數據的範圍到哪裡我要的範圍內一定都是食安法所規定的那我們會後再討論我再跟你要資料這樣可以嗎?好\n數據就是科學,是資訊公開的,是法律規定的。而你現在,我不知道您剛剛給我的回應感覺好像都是有政治的感覺,好像我帶有惡意。因為如果是內部的簽程的過程的話,那個是可以不公開。\nOK 我要的就是資訊公開而且是法律規定可以公開的這些數據這樣子可以嗎?那我想我必須再提出一個您看PTT2016年4月民進黨立委許志傑舉國家環境獨物研究中心的研究報告\n當時這一份報告當中有指稱開放瘦肉精美牛進口前2005年到2008年國人的尿液樣本當中約有1.39%到5.56%被驗出4種瘦肉精其中也包含西部特羅依此比例來換算國內恐高達將近115萬人左右來受害。院長我想\n我的訴求越來越清楚,您聽聽看,既然國家環境毒物研究中心曾經在2005年到2008年做過這樣子的研究報告,為何中央在溯源管理人找不到源頭,這是我所疑慮的。但\n西布特羅大家都知道比萊克多巴胺的毒性大10倍而且不容易代謝而且殘留的時間又更久我想這個嚴重性不容小覷所以我今天我想要拜託院長您剛剛也有在其他的委員提到\n看守內閣要負責任戰戰兢兢的做到5月19日您是做事的院長我要拜託你院長西布特羅的同批豬肉有97%已經吃下肚本席為了臺中市市民的健康著想我懇求我也要求\n中央比照國家環境獨物研究中心的研究報告案例辦理,編列經費給台中市政府,或者是其他的公部門再一次執行相關的研究報告,可以嗎?\n首先我要講一下,你們三個委員的講法不一樣,一個要我有所有為,一個要我認真負責,一個叫我說你這個是Council內閣,你不能做任何事情。我就一句話,做你自己,您回答了5月19戰戰兢兢做到,您願意負責任嗎?那所以剛才的委員講錯了吧,好,那我現在想講的就是說,\n對於這一個檢驗的部分那需要再做進一步的抽驗我們已經講好會對於這個豬肉我們本來要做2000件的我們會擴大做到4000件的這一個以這個meta broker這個做底數的檢驗我知道您有要擴大我都看過這些其他相關的對話那你現在要講說讓台中市政府\n你說從尿液來檢驗喔?\n我沒有說一千倍,我說十倍啦!\n我要跟委員報告的就是說因為這所謂的瘦肉精其實它就有乙型瘦體素那乙型瘦體素的裡面的這些許多種的話其中有一些是在藥物裡面有\n對,像我們的氣喘、感冒的時候也經常會用到。所以你去驗這些...所以2005年到2008年他所指出的這些報告當中是沒有用的。所以當時許智傑拿出這份報告有可能是吃藥然後看他當時的政府也是錯的嗎?您剛剛院長一直跟我強調上一個委員講的是錯的。那我現在是不是您間接打臉了許智傑拿出這一份報告\n委員我要跟您講兩件事第一件事情那個時候瘦肉精都還有可能在臺灣在使用第二個這個檢驗出來的結果的解釋很重要我覺得做一個好的科學家你去檢驗出來有了你怎麼解釋呢如果這個乙型瘦體素本來就在藥物裡面那你檢驗的對象裡面檢驗的出來你怎麼分辨這是來自豬肉還是來自這個藥物呢\n所以我想科學很重要。我很高興你強調科學。我在這邊沒有要跟您比個高下。我在這邊是希望能夠爭取這一個經費再一次做這樣子的研究報告。其實我覺得是利益良善。您也是為了國人的健康。我想這大家都可以再討論看看。那另外我想再跟您提問。院長您平常有滑臉書的習慣嗎?或者是看看LINE?\n網路上購藥要小心。\n教師全聯會也發出呼籲要求政府要重視這樣子的一個問題。院長今天有宣稱醫療效能的LINE臉書廣告到處充斥。針對該類廣告的處理方式\n可以說一下嗎?我請衛福部來解釋。這基本上在藥事法裡面對這一類的話,就是應該要處罰。那不好意思,那如果IP都設在國外,國外怎麼處理?這是廣告的部分的話,那IP如果是在國外的確有它的困難,但是民眾要買藥一定是現實的那個藥在國內,所以我們可以來追啦。\n這希望您追得到啦但是我必須跟您講國外廠商設架網站其廣告的內容違反國內的法定規定時因為管轄權不在國內所以無法約束制止該行為而如今業者都在國內網站刊登這種誇大不實宣稱醫療廣告違反藥事法、食安法等規定\n但若是在國外架設網站國內刊登廣告違反國內的法令就沒事這根本就抓不到所以沒辦法抓就變成一個漏洞那甚至就會開始越多人仿效那政府不就是鼓勵大家採此做法\n所以藥師全聯會已經砲轟中央政府都不管數位部都只賣蚵仔麵線\n打詐也不能打,到底在幹嘛?國人的健康可以等待嗎?這一種要你錢要你命,我想,院長,剛剛我們還是提到您會戰戰兢兢地做到5月19,這件事情您可以幫忙協助處理嗎?當然要啊,這個如果說是一個詐騙的這個廣告一定要隨時下架,你即刻下架,這是很重要的。\n那去年我們就下架有3萬多則了。好,謝謝院長正面的回覆,我們持續努力,但我要跟您報告,藥師全聯會都提到這件事情,代表已經有一段時間了。這件事情到現在都沒辦法處理好。我也希望5月19看到您是輝煌的去回歸您原本人生的規劃,那您把這個東西都做完,我們看到了這\n行政院合訂了台中藍縣\n這條捷運的計畫總經費1615.14億元。未來完工後不只臺中市民會受惠,全國國人來到臺中玩也都會一樣受惠。但是院長中央的補助啊真的不能大小眼。您聽聽看當初高捷興建的時候六成由中央來負擔,四成高雄市政府。\n來負擔現在終結藍線興建臺中市負擔939億接近六成要臺中市政府負擔六成的理由新聞都有寫都有指出臺中市市府財務狀況改善了財政等級由三級成為二級對吧?對所以由行政院認定臺中市市政府的財政改善了\n沒有沒有沒有 這個有一個標準啦有標準啦沒關係那我還要補充一下等我一下等我一下待會我就會給您喔那院長地方政府努力改善財政我個人覺得要值得鼓勵啦不管是口頭的不管是實質的實質的啦實質鼓勵很多但是我看到的是為什麼補助反而變少了那不就意味著懲罰好學生鼓勵大家不要當好學生嗎那我有PTT您看一下\n這一張是各直轄市的縣市政府財力及次表我們先看到左邊啦不好意思因為左邊被翻譯人員擋到了我簡單跟您報告左邊花蓮縣的財力及次是第五級是第五級喔院長左邊是第五級但是跑到右邊的表格你們的表格啦齁花蓮卻是唯一例外他卻只有82%\n不是90%但今天我要跟您探討的是第二級跟第三級最高的補助比例是70到78兩者是差8%第四級到第五級是82到90%這之間差了4%\n對不起82到90%也是差了8%但3級到4級的時候是78%到82%這就差了4%而已喔所以我想問一下為什麼沒有一致性的等差比例或者是固定比例的征服這當時這樣子的一個表格當時這樣的比例到底是怎麼定的\n是政治決定的嗎?跟那個委員報告一下這個原則是多年來都是大概我們每兩三年公布一次那您剛才講的臺中市的升級事實上我們都會有獎勵金據我知道臺中市這個三年會多到3億的獎勵金升級謝謝我想還是很少啦我們當然希望各縣市的都是第一級啦但是有可能嗎?不可能\n我們應該不只是獎勵而已我們想我們這幾年包括我們在地方一直在喊財政化分收支法我們希望能夠擁有這樣子前頭有擁有這樣這麼好的法令讓各個縣市能夠公正公開後面這樣子的一個補助計劃性補助我覺得也都減少我覺得是血\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.607 --> 00:31.216\n謝謝院長有請院長謝謝麻煩請新任陳院長備詢謝謝首先我可能也會關心NCC主委陳耀祥陳主委羅永文恭喜你當選立委院長謝謝您的恭喜謝謝我想請問一下NCC主委來了謝謝\n\n00:37.288 --> 00:52.790\n主委,我想剛剛翁委員有提到在NCC這幾年有許多的爭議我想這些分分老老也都在你上一次有提到可能就不會再繼續擔任主委這一職我想請問一下NCC主委\n\n00:53.667 --> 01:18.386\n陳主委請問一下你卸任後的人生規劃方便跟大家提供一下嗎我在媒體上講得很清楚我是要回學校去任教因為我卸掉時間已經8年了已經到任了要回去教書那另外請問陳院長4位NCC的委員即將在7月要屆滿那我想這個4月底前要提名請問您目前有沒有這個提名的人選或者是條件\n\n01:18.866 --> 01:37.429\n我們現在請各界來推薦那這個條件當然是具有電信資訊傳播法律或財經等專業學士或者是有實務經驗的這些人才我們來網絡他們來作為我們向大院推薦的這個人選\n\n01:38.530 --> 02:05.605\n主委謝謝您剛剛有說出是條件那目前有沒有人選已經開始在稍微面試當然我們陸陸續續有請各界來推薦已經看起來應該是有人選了那沒關係就還在了解嘛是當然等你方便公佈的時候時間到了以後我們就會一定準時來向大院推薦主委謝謝您OK那另外我想有一些在我準備要跟您詢問之前另外有想詢問幾個問題\n\n02:07.301 --> 02:32.535\n我想中國搶奪邦交國的企圖從未停歇那院長我想現在12個邦交國關係是否都穩固最穩固的你心中可不可以跟我們分享一下我想我們跟各個邦交國現在就是邦誼都相當的不錯那我們也會繼續來維持我們彼此作為一個自由民主的相同理念的夥伴我們彼此幫忙相互協助\n\n02:33.015 --> 02:37.037\n您心目中有沒有覺得最穩固的是哪一個國家?您印象最深刻的呢?\n\n02:50.536 --> 03:17.904\n沒有,院長您自己印象深刻的我印象深刻的其實有蠻多的搬家伙跟我們都相當好啊方便舉例嗎現在這方面我不方便啦沒關係沒關係那之前傳出帛琉有可能跟台灣斷交啦齁那大陸就想要挖牆角還要開架嘛說要訂滿所有帛琉飯店的房間結果華航宣布從7月起一週要變成4班航班\n\n03:18.584 --> 03:37.454\n我想這是難道要挽救邦交國嗎?有這麼多人要搭嗎?是否有政治考量?部長回答委員的問題有關於我們台灣跟帛琉的關係的確是非常的穩固這個絕對沒有問題那但是我們跟帛琉之間的關係有很多的層面必須要進行合作\n\n03:37.952 --> 03:38.072\n是嗎?\n\n03:38.072 --> 03:38.132\n好OK\n\n03:57.657 --> 04:25.126\n好那謝謝那以下呢我有準備幾個問題想要先詢問院長其中四個是是非題啦那其中一題是簡答題請院長簡單的回答我就可以了部長謝謝您謝謝這五題很簡單我想不需要靠其他人院長就有辦法自己來回答那我們先來看一下POPPOI我想詢問一下院長行政院所屬各機關及之下是政府辦理答覆立法委員質詢案件的處理原則院長您知不知道這個原則呢\n\n04:26.173 --> 04:54.241\n我不太清楚這2016年的這個105年1月有修正那我想以現在來說應該都還適用給您參考一下但沒關係我會在後面再繼續說明依據原則的第九點來說本院交達之質詢案件如為代理代判院稿案件各機關應於第六點所定的秘書長所含文到十日內用院函回復立法院\n\n04:54.941 --> 05:09.066\n我想換句話說,最簡單的講就是資料最慢10天內要回覆,對嗎?欸,照這個文章上是這樣寫。OK好,那我們再來看喔,食安法第五條規定PTT,那我想這個\n\n05:11.167 --> 05:26.519\n議員長這個應該您非常熟悉您是公衛專家啦齁那我們再來看看食安法的第40條規定喔可以簡單來說就是各級主管機關在發布預警措施時對於所發布的食品衛生檢驗資訊時也應該同時公佈檢驗方法檢驗的單位還有結果判斷依據這樣子的簡單解讀對嗎?\n\n05:37.058 --> 05:52.518\n對但是這裡有一個很重要的一個關鍵就是檢驗的結果必須是正確無誤的正確科學我之前有看到您有提到這樣子的一個質詢答覆我沒有問題沒有意見OKOK但是我想跟您詢問一下\n\n05:53.699 --> 06:19.394\n再來就是我的簡答題跟您詢問,院長106年您身為中華民國的副總統,當時大家都說您是大人哥,還記得吧?那106年4月彰化地區的蛋機廠,雞蛋被驗出代澳星含量超標的事件。雞蛋到底怎麼會有代澳星?請說明源頭到底在哪裡?怎麼發生?最後結果怎麼樣?這個部分院長您可以回答我嗎?\n\n06:20.735 --> 06:23.077\n根據輸入藥物邊境抽查的檢驗辦法第20條規定,\n\n06:48.439 --> 07:03.109\n報驗醫務人於收受前向通知時,次日起15日內得向查驗機關申請復驗,但以一次為限復驗時由查驗機關就原抽取餘存樣品之。對不對?\n\n07:05.067 --> 07:31.866\n這是法律規定的法律規定的嘛就是要抽樣品而且是原樣的抽樣餘品好那謝謝院長以上的答覆那我想我們繼續往下看我想院長您知道戴奧辛旦有被監察院糾正嗎您看一下這個糾正文監察院在106年1月8日糾正文呈現以下的事實一\n\n07:33.171 --> 07:42.577\n清楚直接的點名找出源頭是中央政府的責任不是地方政府。二、戴奧欽的事實是存在的。\n\n07:43.598 --> 08:06.848\n所以糾正當時的環保署農委會待於行政業務的踐行。三、若當時的農委會或環保署將此視為單一事件僅以產品端進行檢驗或驗證的時候,卻未能正視問題並積極地追查、防堵、待澳新污染食安的事件,仍將層出不窮。\n\n08:07.808 --> 08:07.828\n院長﹖\n\n08:26.083 --> 08:45.837\n您講臺中西部特羅案首次的檢驗驗出後沒給臺堂15天的復驗時間就進行公佈這是臺中市政府的錯但是院長市府依食安法第5條他就是需要公佈如果像您說的還要再等等等\n\n08:46.578 --> 09:13.621\n等到中央說可以公布再公布。如果有一天監察院抓到太晚公布導致台中市政府的公務人員被糾察被懲處誰負責?難道行政院院長陳建仁院長您負責嗎?從今天早上的答覆您在牛許廷這個部分回覆說520之後您是堅定支持絕對不會再繼續擔任行政院長那您要怎麼負責?\n\n09:14.775 --> 09:28.431\n您說台中市政府錯在太早公布了現在我們是公開直播我想問一下那如果您可以承諾以後類似有這樣子的公務人員被監察院糾正的時候\n\n09:29.485 --> 09:53.561\n有人可以負責嗎?您敢在這邊直接說你會負責嗎?正確的科學那一件事情就是他必須要確定他檢驗的結果是正確那台中市政府的檢驗人員在同一塊肉做了很多次的檢驗前後的差距相差十倍以上那這個時候他自己也感到困惑\n\n09:54.341 --> 09:58.003\n好的院長謝謝您的回覆那院長根據報導您指稱臺中市食安處實驗室的汙染是有可能的有可能的\n\n10:22.059 --> 10:35.701\n而現在坐在臺下的鄭文燦副院長是直接直指不管用什麼方式表達都不會改變臺中市實驗室污染的這個事實。第三\n\n10:37.011 --> 11:04.178\n我們現在可以看到臺中市衛生局長曾子展表示說實驗室的污染證據在哪裡而且先後有派官員專家來查看都定調實驗室沒有污染院長我今天想要特別請問的是請問一下實驗室污染的證據在哪裡您可以提出來嗎再來一個行政院有三種版本有可能這是事實\n\n11:05.305 --> 11:11.313\n以及沒有汙染請問一下到底國人要怎麼樣才知道哪一個才是正確的答案\n\n11:12.113 --> 11:36.749\n我想這件事情需要靠我們專家委員會來做最後的認定那專家委員會現在會議已經開完然後他們現在的報告要出來但是我在這裡要跟委員做報告的就是我們怎麼樣會認為他是有可能因為你可能也很清楚我在這裡講了很多次西部特羅實際上我們進口以後他只有0.8公克\n\n11:37.830 --> 11:39.251\n我今天想請問您一個很簡單的問題我現在看到三種版本\n\n11:57.919 --> 12:19.468\n您可不可以今天公開直播跟我確定一個版本是有可能的還是這是事實還是這是沒有不能排除不排除有污染的可能性好所以就是有可能嘛對吧三種版本我們找到了一個版本您說的就是有可能但我很遺憾的是有人說這是事實\n\n12:21.000 --> 12:49.171\n這一點就這一點我們應該要抱持著應該要否定的態度我希望您維持我們有科學我們就等專家來判定嘛那現在是有可能汙染而不是事實而現在有人大言不慚的直接告訴我們所有的媒體這是事實我想這就是傷害台中市傷害所有的台中市願意認真去檢驗的這些公務人員所以\n\n12:49.651 --> 13:11.864\n我們今天我跟您詢問的是有可能不排除對吧?對我跟您講的是這樣但是我要跟您報告就是說在接受媒體訪問的時候有些人在回答的時候呢那他你要看那個回答的時間啊等等啊看在哪一個時程裡面所做的這個結論比較好一點謝謝\n\n13:14.059 --> 13:35.765\n那科學是講數據的政治才是拐彎抹角才是含沙射影才是有證據應該直接講明若沒有講的人應該道歉甚至應該直接下台我想根據媒體報導大約97%的肉量已經被吃掉了行政院指出本次抽驗同批的豬肉共計52件\n\n13:37.199 --> 13:47.190\n我想可代表這都沒有檢測出乙型受體數且檢驗的數目符合科學統計的數目也就是抽樣數大於30\n\n13:48.800 --> 14:10.586\n可代表母體,表示台糖豬肉安全無虞。我想就教於院長,抽驗數目符合科學統計數目,抽樣數大於30,可代表母體。不好意思,您是公衛專家,我不敢說我比你強。那我想請問一下,今天的這句話,可代表母體的依據是什麼?可否識之本教?\n\n14:12.826 --> 14:31.054\n當N大於等於這個30的時候那他的那個95%訓練期間的測定值呢就是在可信的範圍內嘛所以這個是一般的食品檢驗的時候我們為什麼要用抽樣檢查的原理就在這裡這就是統計的重要性啊統計科學的重要性\n\n14:31.254 --> 14:50.750\n那今天農業部跟衛福部兩部都共驗了2885件的樣品有關西部特羅都未檢出但台中市就是檢出來了那食藥署的相關單位也都去驗了台中市那一批也有驗出來而且台中市政府的這個實驗室也都是食藥署認證的衛福部長對吧?\n\n14:52.010 --> 15:19.006\n是經過時報室認證的。那有驗出的話就要抓出問題在哪,不要再扯台中市政府作假。有,拜託你,抓出來讓我們知道台中市作假。如果沒有就不要一直講台中市。委員,但是這一個檢驗是在台中市政府的實驗室去驗出來有的。所以負責任的實驗室應該要去找出來為什麼他可以檢驗出來而別人檢驗不出來。好的。\n\n15:19.326 --> 15:20.627\n他是實際上的檢驗者他有責任的責任來幫助協助對\n\n15:38.624 --> 16:02.020\n那您能夠想像嗎?106年食藥署副署長林金富公開的強調告訴民眾不用恐慌根據資料顯示就算終生都吃戴奧辛蛋每日的平均曝露量仍低於世界衛生組織的建議值樣這樣子的向全民信心喊話我想當時他有這樣做出這樣子的一個喊話\n\n16:03.201 --> 16:21.586\n如果他當時有做這樣的一個喊話而且他也參考了Codex就是這個世界上的這一個大澳新的含量的標準有這樣的一個依據那他按照數學上的計算他確實是沒有到達Codex的標準檢出跟達到這個國際標準\n\n16:23.807 --> 16:52.630\n是檢出的量很低所以他做這樣的結論是符合科學的論證好的沒問題那院長您看本席多次發函食安辦所知這些所知的資料多久了本席跟你們要檢驗結果的判讀依據等資料這些都是已經存在的內容為什麼不能在10天內的期限交付本席依食安法規定檢驗的資訊要公開你都已經驗完了喔\n\n16:53.511 --> 17:09.174\n公布檢驗的結果同時都應該載明偵測的定量極限值的判讀依據這些最基本的資料都已經是現成的不用再另外找答案為什麼遲遲沒有交給我我們辦公室所知很多天了\n\n17:10.475 --> 17:38.391\n這個部分剛才您的您說的那個條文是含到後10天內但是因為這個比較細節我請部長看看他知道10天內對那我先你可以給我資料嗎我是沒有收到或看到委員要所知的內容我想我們公文來往都會有證據白紙黑紙沒關係我會回去再查查看我後面可以再貼給你看那是不是您可以給我資料\n\n17:39.388 --> 18:08.428\n如果他是屬於一些可以公開的資料的話,這絕對沒有問題啦。這一次的檢驗報告我想剛講很清楚,實驗法規定檢驗資訊都應該要公開。所以應該沒有所謂的可公開跟不可公開吧。那我想這些公衛專家都很了解,判斷依據的這個原始資料檢驗的結果可信度占有極大的重要性。這個時候您跟我講的好像有一點點就是,好像內部有不能夠告知不能夠公開的,是這樣嗎?\n\n18:09.669 --> 18:23.685\n如果是檢驗的數據的話那的確是可以公開但是我不知道委員要的數據的範圍到哪裡我要的範圍內一定都是食安法所規定的那我們會後再討論我再跟你要資料這樣可以嗎?好\n\n18:24.726 --> 18:38.898\n數據就是科學,是資訊公開的,是法律規定的。而你現在,我不知道您剛剛給我的回應感覺好像都是有政治的感覺,好像我帶有惡意。因為如果是內部的簽程的過程的話,那個是可以不公開。\n\n18:39.659 --> 18:55.396\nOK我要的就是資訊公開而且是法律規定可以公開的這些數據這樣子可以嗎?那我想我必須再提出一個您看PTT2016年4月民進黨立委許志傑舉國家環境獨物研究中心的研究報告\n\n18:57.037 --> 19:24.214\n當時這一份報告當中有指稱開放瘦肉精美牛進口前2005年到2008年國人的尿液樣本當中約有1.39%到5.56%被驗出4種瘦肉精其中也包含西部特羅依此比例來換算國內恐高達將近115萬人左右來受害。院長我想\n\n19:24.980 --> 19:42.911\n我的訴求越來越清楚,您聽聽看,既然國家環境毒物研究中心曾經在2005年到2008年做過這樣子的研究報告,為何中央在溯源管理人找不到源頭,這是我所疑慮的。但\n\n19:43.551 --> 19:58.761\n西布特羅大家都知道比萊克多巴胺的毒性大10倍而且不容易代謝而且殘留的時間又更久我想這個嚴重性不容小覷所以我今天我想要拜託院長您剛剛也有在其他的委員提到\n\n19:59.281 --> 20:16.578\n看守內閣要負責任戰戰兢兢的做到5月19日您是做事的院長我要拜託你院長西布特羅的同批豬肉有97%已經吃下肚本席為了臺中市市民的健康著想我懇求我也要求\n\n20:17.299 --> 20:32.114\n中央比照國家環境獨物研究中心的研究報告案例辦理,編列經費給台中市政府,或者是其他的公部門再一次執行相關的研究報告,可以嗎?\n\n20:33.956 --> 20:55.933\n首先我要講一下,你們三個委員的講法不一樣,一個要我有所有為,一個要我認真負責,一個叫我說你這個是Council內閣,你不能做任何事情。我就一句話,做你自己,您回答了5月19戰戰兢兢做到,您願意負責任嗎?那所以剛才的委員講錯了吧,好,那我現在想講的就是說,\n\n20:57.254 --> 21:21.309\n對於這一個檢驗的部分那需要再做進一步的抽驗我們已經講好會對於這個豬肉我們本來要做2000件的我們會擴大做到4000件的這一個以這個metabroker這個做底數的檢驗我知道您有要擴大我都看過這些其他相關的對話那你現在要講說讓台中市政府\n\n21:22.450 --> 21:22.690\n你說從尿液來檢驗喔?\n\n21:47.982 --> 21:48.943\n我沒有說一千倍,我說十倍啦!\n\n22:02.606 --> 22:06.469\n我要跟委員報告的就是說因為這所謂的瘦肉精其實它就有乙型瘦體素那乙型瘦體素的裡面的這些許多種的話其中有一些是在藥物裡面有\n\n22:29.465 --> 22:54.859\n對,像我們的氣喘、感冒的時候也經常會用到。所以你去驗這些...所以2005年到2008年他所指出的這些報告當中是沒有用的。所以當時許智傑拿出這份報告有可能是吃藥然後看他當時的政府也是錯的嗎?您剛剛院長一直跟我強調上一個委員講的是錯的。那我現在是不是您間接打臉了許智傑拿出這一份報告\n\n22:56.680 --> 23:21.133\n委員我要跟您講兩件事第一件事情那個時候瘦肉精都還有可能在臺灣在使用第二個這個檢驗出來的結果的解釋很重要我覺得做一個好的科學家你去檢驗出來有了你怎麼解釋呢如果這個乙型瘦體素本來就在藥物裡面那你檢驗的對象裡面檢驗的出來你怎麼分辨這是來自豬肉還是來自這個藥物呢\n\n23:24.595 --> 23:50.497\n所以我想科學很重要。我很高興你強調科學。我在這邊沒有要跟您比個高下。我在這邊是希望能夠爭取這一個經費再一次做這樣子的研究報告。其實我覺得是利益良善。您也是為了國人的健康。我想這大家都可以再討論看看。那另外我想再跟您提問。院長您平常有滑臉書的習慣嗎?或者是看看LINE?\n\n23:50.917 --> 23:51.277\n網路上購藥要小心。\n\n24:17.878 --> 24:32.393\n教師全聯會也發出呼籲要求政府要重視這樣子的一個問題。院長今天有宣稱醫療效能的LINE臉書廣告到處充斥。針對該類廣告的處理方式\n\n24:33.203 --> 25:01.495\n可以說一下嗎?我請衛福部來解釋。這基本上在藥事法裡面對這一類的話,就是應該要處罰。那不好意思,那如果IP都設在國外,國外怎麼處理?這是廣告的部分的話,那IP如果是在國外的確有它的困難,但是民眾要買藥一定是現實的那個藥在國內,所以我們可以來追啦。\n\n25:02.563 --> 25:26.016\n這希望您追得到啦但是我必須跟您講國外廠商設架網站其廣告的內容違反國內的法定規定時因為管轄權不在國內所以無法約束制止該行為而如今業者都在國內網站刊登這種誇大不實宣稱醫療廣告違反藥事法、食安法等規定\n\n25:27.728 --> 25:48.541\n但若是在國外架設網站國內刊登廣告違反國內的法令就沒事這根本就抓不到所以沒辦法抓就變成一個漏洞那甚至就會開始越多人仿效那政府不就是鼓勵大家採此做法\n\n25:49.463 --> 25:57.235\n所以藥師全聯會已經砲轟中央政府都不管數位部都只賣蚵仔麵線\n\n25:59.209 --> 26:23.288\n打詐也不能打,到底在幹嘛?國人的健康可以等待嗎?這一種要你錢要你命,我想,院長,剛剛我們還是提到您會戰戰兢兢地做到5月19,這件事情您可以幫忙協助處理嗎?當然要啊,這個如果說是一個詐騙的這個廣告一定要隨時下架,你即刻下架,這是很重要的。\n\n26:24.469 --> 26:46.841\n那去年我們就下架有3萬多則了。好,謝謝院長正面的回覆,我們持續努力,但我要跟您報告,藥師全聯會都提到這件事情,代表已經有一段時間了。這件事情到現在都沒辦法處理好。我也希望5月19看到您是輝煌的去回歸您原本人生的規劃,那您把這個東西都做完,我們看到了這\n\n26:47.521 --> 26:48.342\n行政院合訂了台中藍縣\n\n27:07.041 --> 27:29.402\n這條捷運的計畫總經費1615.14億元。未來完工後不只臺中市民會受惠,全國國人來到臺中玩也都會一樣受惠。但是院長中央的補助啊真的不能大小眼。您聽聽看當初高捷興建的時候六成由中央來負擔,四成高雄市政府。\n\n27:30.142 --> 27:57.504\n來負擔現在終結藍線興建臺中市負擔939億接近六成要臺中市政府負擔六成的理由新聞都有寫都有指出臺中市市府財務狀況改善了財政等級由三級成為二級對吧?對所以由行政院認定臺中市市政府的財政改善了\n\n27:58.144 --> 28:24.835\n沒有沒有沒有這個有一個標準啦有標準啦沒關係那我還要補充一下等我一下等我一下待會我就會給您喔那院長地方政府努力改善財政我個人覺得要值得鼓勵啦不管是口頭的不管是實質的實質的啦實質鼓勵很多但是我看到的是為什麼補助反而變少了那不就意味著懲罰好學生鼓勵大家不要當好學生嗎那我有PTT您看一下\n\n28:26.016 --> 28:54.211\n這一張是各直轄市的縣市政府財力及次表我們先看到左邊啦不好意思因為左邊被翻譯人員擋到了我簡單跟您報告左邊花蓮縣的財力及次是第五級是第五級喔院長左邊是第五級但是跑到右邊的表格你們的表格啦齁花蓮卻是唯一例外他卻只有82%\n\n28:56.336 --> 29:09.881\n不是90%但今天我要跟您探討的是第二級跟第三級最高的補助比例是70到78兩者是差8%第四級到第五級是82到90%這之間差了4%\n\n29:15.982 --> 29:39.936\n對不起82到90%也是差了8%但3級到4級的時候是78%到82%這就差了4%而已喔所以我想問一下為什麼沒有一致性的等差比例或者是固定比例的征服這當時這樣子的一個表格當時這樣的比例到底是怎麼定的\n\n29:40.396 --> 30:07.133\n是政治決定的嗎?跟那個委員報告一下這個原則是多年來都是大概我們每兩三年公布一次那您剛才講的臺中市的升級事實上我們都會有獎勵金據我知道臺中市這個三年會多到3億的獎勵金升級謝謝我想還是很少啦我們當然希望各縣市的都是第一級啦但是有可能嗎?不可能\n\n30:08.013 --> 30:29.315\n我們應該不只是獎勵而已我們想我們這幾年包括我們在地方一直在喊財政化分收支法我們希望能夠擁有這樣子前頭有擁有這樣這麼好的法令讓各個縣市能夠公正公開後面這樣子的一個補助計劃性補助我覺得也都減少我覺得是血\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.607,"end":31.216,"text":"謝謝院長 有請院長 謝謝麻煩請新任陳院長備詢 謝謝首先我可能也會關心NCC主委陳耀祥陳主委羅永文恭喜你當選立委院長謝謝您的恭喜 謝謝我想請問一下NCC主委來了謝謝"},{"start":37.288,"end":52.79,"text":"主委,我想剛剛翁委員有提到在NCC這幾年有許多的爭議我想這些分分老老也都在你上一次有提到可能就不會再繼續擔任主委這一職我想請問一下NCC主委"},{"start":53.667,"end":78.386,"text":"陳主委請問一下你卸任後的人生規劃方便跟大家提供一下嗎我在媒體上講得很清楚我是要回學校去任教因為我卸掉時間已經8年了已經到任了要回去教書那另外請問陳院長4位NCC的委員即將在7月要屆滿那我想這個4月底前要提名請問您目前有沒有這個提名的人選或者是條件"},{"start":78.866,"end":97.429,"text":"我們現在請各界來推薦那這個條件當然是具有電信資訊傳播法律或財經等專業學士或者是有實務經驗的這些人才我們來網絡他們來作為我們向大院推薦的這個人選"},{"start":98.53,"end":125.605,"text":"主委謝謝您剛剛有說出是條件那目前有沒有人選已經開始在稍微面試當然我們陸陸續續有請各界來推薦已經看起來應該是有人選了那沒關係就還在了解嘛是當然等你方便公佈的時候時間到了以後我們就會一定準時來向大院推薦主委謝謝您OK那另外我想有一些在我準備要跟您詢問之前另外有想詢問幾個問題"},{"start":127.301,"end":152.535,"text":"我想中國搶奪邦交國的企圖從未停歇那院長我想現在12個邦交國關係是否都穩固最穩固的你心中可不可以跟我們分享一下我想我們跟各個邦交國現在就是邦誼都相當的不錯那我們也會繼續來維持我們彼此作為一個自由民主的相同理念的夥伴我們彼此幫忙相互協助"},{"start":153.015,"end":157.037,"text":"您心目中有沒有覺得最穩固的是哪一個國家?您印象最深刻的呢?"},{"start":170.536,"end":197.904,"text":"沒有,院長您自己印象深刻的我印象深刻的其實有蠻多的搬家伙跟我們都相當好啊方便舉例嗎現在這方面我不方便啦沒關係沒關係那之前傳出帛琉有可能跟台灣斷交啦齁那大陸就想要挖牆角還要開架嘛說要訂滿所有帛琉飯店的房間結果華航宣布從7月起一週要變成4班航班"},{"start":198.584,"end":217.454,"text":"我想這是難道要挽救邦交國嗎?有這麼多人要搭嗎?是否有政治考量?部長回答委員的問題有關於我們台灣跟帛琉的關係的確是非常的穩固這個絕對沒有問題那但是我們跟帛琉之間的關係有很多的層面必須要進行合作"},{"start":217.952,"end":218.072,"text":"是嗎?"},{"start":218.072,"end":218.132,"text":"好 OK"},{"start":237.657,"end":265.126,"text":"好那謝謝那以下呢我有準備幾個問題想要先詢問院長其中四個是是非題啦那其中一題是簡答題請院長簡單的回答我就可以了部長謝謝您謝謝這五題很簡單我想不需要靠其他人院長就有辦法自己來回答那我們先來看一下POPPOI我想詢問一下院長行政院所屬各機關及之下是政府辦理答覆立法委員質詢案件的處理原則院長您知不知道這個原則呢"},{"start":266.173,"end":294.241,"text":"我不太清楚這2016年的這個105年1月有修正那我想以現在來說應該都還適用給您參考一下但沒關係我會在後面再繼續說明依據原則的第九點來說本院交達之質詢案件如為代理代判院稿案件各機關應於第六點所定的秘書長所含文到十日內用院函回復立法院"},{"start":294.941,"end":309.066,"text":"我想換句話說,最簡單的講就是資料最慢10天內要回覆,對嗎?欸,照這個文章上是這樣寫。OK好,那我們再來看喔,食安法第五條規定PTT,那我想這個"},{"start":311.167,"end":326.519,"text":"議員長 這個應該您非常熟悉您是公衛專家啦齁那我們再來看看食安法的第40條規定喔可以簡單來說就是各級主管機關在發布預警措施時對於所發布的食品衛生檢驗資訊時也應該同時公佈檢驗方法檢驗的單位還有結果判斷依據這樣子的簡單解讀對嗎?"},{"start":337.058,"end":352.518,"text":"對但是這裡有一個很重要的一個關鍵就是檢驗的結果必須是正確無誤的正確科學我之前有看到您有提到這樣子的一個質詢答覆我沒有問題沒有意見OKOK但是我想跟您詢問一下"},{"start":353.699,"end":379.394,"text":"再來就是我的簡答題跟您詢問,院長106年您身為中華民國的副總統,當時大家都說您是大人哥,還記得吧?那106年4月彰化地區的蛋機廠,雞蛋被驗出代澳星含量超標的事件。雞蛋到底怎麼會有代澳星?請說明源頭到底在哪裡?怎麼發生?最後結果怎麼樣?這個部分院長您可以回答我嗎?"},{"start":380.735,"end":383.077,"text":"根據輸入藥物邊境抽查的檢驗辦法第20條規定,"},{"start":408.439,"end":423.109,"text":"報驗醫務人於收受前向通知時,次日起15日內得向查驗機關申請復驗,但以一次為限復驗時由查驗機關就原抽取餘存樣品之。對不對?"},{"start":425.067,"end":451.866,"text":"這是法律規定的法律規定的嘛就是要抽樣品而且是原樣的抽樣餘品好那謝謝院長以上的答覆那我想我們繼續往下看我想院長您知道戴奧辛旦有被監察院糾正嗎您看一下這個糾正文監察院在106年1月8日糾正文呈現以下的事實一"},{"start":453.171,"end":462.577,"text":"清楚直接的點名找出源頭是中央政府的責任不是地方政府。二、戴奧欽的事實是存在的。"},{"start":463.598,"end":486.848,"text":"所以糾正當時的環保署農委會待於行政業務的踐行。三、若當時的農委會或環保署將此視為單一事件僅以產品端進行檢驗或驗證的時候,卻未能正視問題並積極地追查、防堵、待澳新污染食安的事件,仍將層出不窮。"},{"start":487.808,"end":487.828,"text":"院長﹖"},{"start":506.083,"end":525.837,"text":"您講臺中西部特羅案首次的檢驗驗出後沒給臺堂15天的復驗時間就進行公佈這是臺中市政府的錯但是院長市府依食安法第5條他就是需要公佈如果像您說的還要再等等等"},{"start":526.578,"end":553.621,"text":"等到中央說可以公布再公布。如果有一天監察院抓到太晚公布導致台中市政府的公務人員被糾察被懲處誰負責?難道行政院院長陳建仁院長您負責嗎?從今天早上的答覆您在牛許廷這個部分回覆說520之後您是堅定支持絕對不會再繼續擔任行政院長那您要怎麼負責?"},{"start":554.775,"end":568.431,"text":"您說台中市政府錯在太早公布了現在我們是公開直播我想問一下那如果您可以承諾以後類似有這樣子的公務人員被監察院糾正的時候"},{"start":569.485,"end":593.561,"text":"有人可以負責嗎?您敢在這邊直接說你會負責嗎?正確的科學那一件事情就是他必須要確定他檢驗的結果是正確那台中市政府的檢驗人員在同一塊肉做了很多次的檢驗前後的差距相差十倍以上那這個時候他自己也感到困惑"},{"start":594.341,"end":598.003,"text":"好的 院長謝謝您的回覆那院長根據報導您指稱臺中市食安處實驗室的汙染是有可能的有可能的"},{"start":622.059,"end":635.701,"text":"而現在坐在臺下的鄭文燦副院長是直接直指不管用什麼方式表達都不會改變臺中市實驗室污染的這個事實。第三"},{"start":637.011,"end":664.178,"text":"我們現在可以看到臺中市衛生局長曾子展表示說實驗室的污染證據在哪裡而且先後有派官員專家來查看都定調實驗室沒有污染院長我今天想要特別請問的是請問一下實驗室污染的證據在哪裡您可以提出來嗎再來一個行政院有三種版本有可能這是事實"},{"start":665.305,"end":671.313,"text":"以及沒有汙染請問一下到底國人要怎麼樣才知道哪一個才是正確的答案"},{"start":672.113,"end":696.749,"text":"我想這件事情需要靠我們專家委員會來做最後的認定那專家委員會現在會議已經開完然後他們現在的報告要出來但是我在這裡要跟委員做報告的就是我們怎麼樣會認為他是有可能因為你可能也很清楚我在這裡講了很多次西部特羅實際上我們進口以後他只有0.8公克"},{"start":697.83,"end":699.251,"text":"我今天想請問您一個很簡單的問題我現在看到三種版本"},{"start":717.919,"end":739.468,"text":"您可不可以今天公開直播跟我確定一個版本是有可能的還是這是事實還是這是沒有不能排除不排除有污染的可能性好所以就是有可能嘛對吧三種版本我們找到了一個版本您說的就是有可能但我很遺憾的是有人說這是事實"},{"start":741,"end":769.171,"text":"這一點就這一點我們應該要抱持著應該要否定的態度我希望您維持我們有科學我們就等專家來判定嘛那現在是有可能汙染而不是事實而現在有人大言不慚的直接告訴我們所有的媒體這是事實我想這就是傷害台中市傷害所有的台中市願意認真去檢驗的這些公務人員所以"},{"start":769.651,"end":791.864,"text":"我們今天我跟您詢問的是有可能不排除對吧?對我跟您講的是這樣但是我要跟您報告就是說在接受媒體訪問的時候有些人在回答的時候呢那他你要看那個回答的時間啊等等啊看在哪一個時程裡面所做的這個結論比較好一點謝謝"},{"start":794.059,"end":815.765,"text":"那科學是講數據的政治才是拐彎抹角才是含沙射影才是有證據應該直接講明若沒有講的人應該道歉甚至應該直接下台我想根據媒體報導大約97%的肉量已經被吃掉了行政院指出本次抽驗同批的豬肉共計52件"},{"start":817.199,"end":827.19,"text":"我想可代表這都沒有檢測出乙型受體數且檢驗的數目符合科學統計的數目也就是抽樣數大於30"},{"start":828.8,"end":850.586,"text":"可代表母體,表示台糖豬肉安全無虞。我想就教於院長,抽驗數目符合科學統計數目,抽樣數大於30,可代表母體。不好意思,您是公衛專家,我不敢說我比你強。那我想請問一下,今天的這句話,可代表母體的依據是什麼?可否識之本教?"},{"start":852.826,"end":871.054,"text":"當N大於等於這個30的時候那他的那個95%訓練期間的測定值呢就是在可信的範圍內嘛所以這個是一般的食品檢驗的時候我們為什麼要用抽樣檢查的原理就在這裡這就是統計的重要性啊統計科學的重要性"},{"start":871.254,"end":890.75,"text":"那今天農業部跟衛福部兩部都共驗了2885件的樣品有關西部特羅都未檢出但台中市就是檢出來了那食藥署的相關單位也都去驗了台中市那一批也有驗出來而且台中市政府的這個實驗室也都是食藥署認證的衛福部長對吧?"},{"start":892.01,"end":919.006,"text":"是經過時報室認證的。那有驗出的話就要抓出問題在哪,不要再扯台中市政府作假。有,拜託你,抓出來讓我們知道台中市作假。如果沒有就不要一直講台中市。委員,但是這一個檢驗是在台中市政府的實驗室去驗出來有的。所以負責任的實驗室應該要去找出來為什麼他可以檢驗出來而別人檢驗不出來。好的。"},{"start":919.326,"end":920.627,"text":"他是實際上的檢驗者他有責任的責任來幫助協助對"},{"start":938.624,"end":962.02,"text":"那您能夠想像嗎?106年食藥署副署長林金富公開的強調告訴民眾不用恐慌根據資料顯示就算終生都吃戴奧辛蛋每日的平均曝露量仍低於世界衛生組織的建議值樣這樣子的向全民信心喊話我想當時他有這樣做出這樣子的一個喊話"},{"start":963.201,"end":981.586,"text":"如果他當時有做這樣的一個喊話而且他也參考了Codex就是這個世界上的這一個大澳新的含量的標準有這樣的一個依據那他按照數學上的計算他確實是沒有到達Codex的標準檢出跟達到這個國際標準"},{"start":983.807,"end":1012.63,"text":"是檢出的量很低所以他做這樣的結論是符合科學的論證好的沒問題那院長您看本席多次發函食安辦所知這些所知的資料多久了本席跟你們要檢驗結果的判讀依據等資料這些都是已經存在的內容為什麼不能在10天內的期限交付本席依食安法規定檢驗的資訊要公開你都已經驗完了喔"},{"start":1013.511,"end":1029.174,"text":"公布檢驗的結果同時都應該載明偵測的定量極限值的判讀依據這些最基本的資料都已經是現成的不用再另外找答案為什麼遲遲沒有交給我我們辦公室所知很多天了"},{"start":1030.475,"end":1058.391,"text":"這個部分剛才您的您說的那個條文是含到後10天內但是因為這個比較細節我請部長看看他知道10天內對那我先你可以給我資料嗎我是沒有收到或看到委員要所知的內容我想我們公文來往都會有證據白紙黑紙沒關係我會回去再查查看我後面可以再貼給你看那是不是您可以給我資料"},{"start":1059.388,"end":1088.428,"text":"如果他是屬於一些可以公開的資料的話,這絕對沒有問題啦。這一次的檢驗報告我想剛講很清楚,實驗法規定檢驗資訊都應該要公開。所以應該沒有所謂的可公開跟不可公開吧。那我想這些公衛專家都很了解,判斷依據的這個原始資料檢驗的結果可信度占有極大的重要性。這個時候您跟我講的好像有一點點就是,好像內部有不能夠告知不能夠公開的,是這樣嗎?"},{"start":1089.669,"end":1103.685,"text":"如果是檢驗的數據的話那的確是可以公開但是我不知道委員要的數據的範圍到哪裡我要的範圍內一定都是食安法所規定的那我們會後再討論我再跟你要資料這樣可以嗎?好"},{"start":1104.726,"end":1118.898,"text":"數據就是科學,是資訊公開的,是法律規定的。而你現在,我不知道您剛剛給我的回應感覺好像都是有政治的感覺,好像我帶有惡意。因為如果是內部的簽程的過程的話,那個是可以不公開。"},{"start":1119.659,"end":1135.396,"text":"OK 我要的就是資訊公開而且是法律規定可以公開的這些數據這樣子可以嗎?那我想我必須再提出一個您看PTT2016年4月民進黨立委許志傑舉國家環境獨物研究中心的研究報告"},{"start":1137.037,"end":1164.214,"text":"當時這一份報告當中有指稱開放瘦肉精美牛進口前2005年到2008年國人的尿液樣本當中約有1.39%到5.56%被驗出4種瘦肉精其中也包含西部特羅依此比例來換算國內恐高達將近115萬人左右來受害。院長我想"},{"start":1164.98,"end":1182.911,"text":"我的訴求越來越清楚,您聽聽看,既然國家環境毒物研究中心曾經在2005年到2008年做過這樣子的研究報告,為何中央在溯源管理人找不到源頭,這是我所疑慮的。但"},{"start":1183.551,"end":1198.761,"text":"西布特羅大家都知道比萊克多巴胺的毒性大10倍而且不容易代謝而且殘留的時間又更久我想這個嚴重性不容小覷所以我今天我想要拜託院長您剛剛也有在其他的委員提到"},{"start":1199.281,"end":1216.578,"text":"看守內閣要負責任戰戰兢兢的做到5月19日您是做事的院長我要拜託你院長西布特羅的同批豬肉有97%已經吃下肚本席為了臺中市市民的健康著想我懇求我也要求"},{"start":1217.299,"end":1232.114,"text":"中央比照國家環境獨物研究中心的研究報告案例辦理,編列經費給台中市政府,或者是其他的公部門再一次執行相關的研究報告,可以嗎?"},{"start":1233.956,"end":1255.933,"text":"首先我要講一下,你們三個委員的講法不一樣,一個要我有所有為,一個要我認真負責,一個叫我說你這個是Council內閣,你不能做任何事情。我就一句話,做你自己,您回答了5月19戰戰兢兢做到,您願意負責任嗎?那所以剛才的委員講錯了吧,好,那我現在想講的就是說,"},{"start":1257.254,"end":1281.309,"text":"對於這一個檢驗的部分那需要再做進一步的抽驗我們已經講好會對於這個豬肉我們本來要做2000件的我們會擴大做到4000件的這一個以這個meta broker這個做底數的檢驗我知道您有要擴大我都看過這些其他相關的對話那你現在要講說讓台中市政府"},{"start":1282.45,"end":1282.69,"text":"你說從尿液來檢驗喔?"},{"start":1307.982,"end":1308.943,"text":"我沒有說一千倍,我說十倍啦!"},{"start":1322.606,"end":1326.469,"text":"我要跟委員報告的就是說因為這所謂的瘦肉精其實它就有乙型瘦體素那乙型瘦體素的裡面的這些許多種的話其中有一些是在藥物裡面有"},{"start":1349.465,"end":1374.859,"text":"對,像我們的氣喘、感冒的時候也經常會用到。所以你去驗這些...所以2005年到2008年他所指出的這些報告當中是沒有用的。所以當時許智傑拿出這份報告有可能是吃藥然後看他當時的政府也是錯的嗎?您剛剛院長一直跟我強調上一個委員講的是錯的。那我現在是不是您間接打臉了許智傑拿出這一份報告"},{"start":1376.68,"end":1401.133,"text":"委員我要跟您講兩件事第一件事情那個時候瘦肉精都還有可能在臺灣在使用第二個這個檢驗出來的結果的解釋很重要我覺得做一個好的科學家你去檢驗出來有了你怎麼解釋呢如果這個乙型瘦體素本來就在藥物裡面那你檢驗的對象裡面檢驗的出來你怎麼分辨這是來自豬肉還是來自這個藥物呢"},{"start":1404.595,"end":1430.497,"text":"所以我想科學很重要。我很高興你強調科學。我在這邊沒有要跟您比個高下。我在這邊是希望能夠爭取這一個經費再一次做這樣子的研究報告。其實我覺得是利益良善。您也是為了國人的健康。我想這大家都可以再討論看看。那另外我想再跟您提問。院長您平常有滑臉書的習慣嗎?或者是看看LINE?"},{"start":1430.917,"end":1431.277,"text":"網路上購藥要小心。"},{"start":1457.878,"end":1472.393,"text":"教師全聯會也發出呼籲要求政府要重視這樣子的一個問題。院長今天有宣稱醫療效能的LINE臉書廣告到處充斥。針對該類廣告的處理方式"},{"start":1473.203,"end":1501.495,"text":"可以說一下嗎?我請衛福部來解釋。這基本上在藥事法裡面對這一類的話,就是應該要處罰。那不好意思,那如果IP都設在國外,國外怎麼處理?這是廣告的部分的話,那IP如果是在國外的確有它的困難,但是民眾要買藥一定是現實的那個藥在國內,所以我們可以來追啦。"},{"start":1502.563,"end":1526.016,"text":"這希望您追得到啦但是我必須跟您講國外廠商設架網站其廣告的內容違反國內的法定規定時因為管轄權不在國內所以無法約束制止該行為而如今業者都在國內網站刊登這種誇大不實宣稱醫療廣告違反藥事法、食安法等規定"},{"start":1527.728,"end":1548.541,"text":"但若是在國外架設網站國內刊登廣告違反國內的法令就沒事這根本就抓不到所以沒辦法抓就變成一個漏洞那甚至就會開始越多人仿效那政府不就是鼓勵大家採此做法"},{"start":1549.463,"end":1557.235,"text":"所以藥師全聯會已經砲轟中央政府都不管數位部都只賣蚵仔麵線"},{"start":1559.209,"end":1583.288,"text":"打詐也不能打,到底在幹嘛?國人的健康可以等待嗎?這一種要你錢要你命,我想,院長,剛剛我們還是提到您會戰戰兢兢地做到5月19,這件事情您可以幫忙協助處理嗎?當然要啊,這個如果說是一個詐騙的這個廣告一定要隨時下架,你即刻下架,這是很重要的。"},{"start":1584.469,"end":1606.841,"text":"那去年我們就下架有3萬多則了。好,謝謝院長正面的回覆,我們持續努力,但我要跟您報告,藥師全聯會都提到這件事情,代表已經有一段時間了。這件事情到現在都沒辦法處理好。我也希望5月19看到您是輝煌的去回歸您原本人生的規劃,那您把這個東西都做完,我們看到了這"},{"start":1607.521,"end":1608.342,"text":"行政院合訂了台中藍縣"},{"start":1627.041,"end":1649.402,"text":"這條捷運的計畫總經費1615.14億元。未來完工後不只臺中市民會受惠,全國國人來到臺中玩也都會一樣受惠。但是院長中央的補助啊真的不能大小眼。您聽聽看當初高捷興建的時候六成由中央來負擔,四成高雄市政府。"},{"start":1650.142,"end":1677.504,"text":"來負擔現在終結藍線興建臺中市負擔939億接近六成要臺中市政府負擔六成的理由新聞都有寫都有指出臺中市市府財務狀況改善了財政等級由三級成為二級對吧?對所以由行政院認定臺中市市政府的財政改善了"},{"start":1678.144,"end":1704.835,"text":"沒有沒有沒有 這個有一個標準啦有標準啦沒關係那我還要補充一下等我一下等我一下待會我就會給您喔那院長地方政府努力改善財政我個人覺得要值得鼓勵啦不管是口頭的不管是實質的實質的啦實質鼓勵很多但是我看到的是為什麼補助反而變少了那不就意味著懲罰好學生鼓勵大家不要當好學生嗎那我有PTT您看一下"},{"start":1706.016,"end":1734.211,"text":"這一張是各直轄市的縣市政府財力及次表我們先看到左邊啦不好意思因為左邊被翻譯人員擋到了我簡單跟您報告左邊花蓮縣的財力及次是第五級是第五級喔院長左邊是第五級但是跑到右邊的表格你們的表格啦齁花蓮卻是唯一例外他卻只有82%"},{"start":1736.336,"end":1749.881,"text":"不是90%但今天我要跟您探討的是第二級跟第三級最高的補助比例是70到78兩者是差8%第四級到第五級是82到90%這之間差了4%"},{"start":1755.982,"end":1779.936,"text":"對不起82到90%也是差了8%但3級到4級的時候是78%到82%這就差了4%而已喔所以我想問一下為什麼沒有一致性的等差比例或者是固定比例的征服這當時這樣子的一個表格當時這樣的比例到底是怎麼定的"},{"start":1780.396,"end":1807.133,"text":"是政治決定的嗎?跟那個委員報告一下這個原則是多年來都是大概我們每兩三年公布一次那您剛才講的臺中市的升級事實上我們都會有獎勵金據我知道臺中市這個三年會多到3億的獎勵金升級謝謝我想還是很少啦我們當然希望各縣市的都是第一級啦但是有可能嗎?不可能"},{"start":1808.013,"end":1829.315,"text":"我們應該不只是獎勵而已我們想我們這幾年包括我們在地方一直在喊財政化分收支法我們希望能夠擁有這樣子前頭有擁有這樣這麼好的法令讓各個縣市能夠公正公開後面這樣子的一個補助計劃性補助我覺得也都減少我覺得是血"}]}}}}