{"id":149173,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149173","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61498c107f55f9620de5fc31f7f741bddba0a28dd420b397f8ba9b0039caa7a65ffdedc1b900211e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"16:00:31 - 16:16:14","影片長度":"00:15:43","會議時間":"2024-03-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第3次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n 二、3月1日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n 三、3月5日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第3次會議","id":"院會-11-1-3","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3},"date":"2024-03-01","duration":943,"end_time":"2024-03-01T16:16:14+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-01T16:00:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":340,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（16時）主席好，有請院長。"],["主席：請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：伍委員午安，恭喜你連任！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝院長。我第一次選舉，當時您是副總統，您是我唯一造勢場的嘉賓。"],["陳院長建仁：我很榮幸。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我第二次選舉，您是行政院長，也是我造勢場的唯一嘉賓，所以今天很高興在這邊跟您見面。"],["陳院長建仁：再次恭喜！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：在選舉的時候，我們常說選對的人，走對的路，人的確很重要，我相信您是對的人，因為你的溫暖，比任何人更溫暖。"],["陳院長建仁：不敢。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：你的堅韌，我們也已經看到，比任何人更堅韌，在這邊跟您說聲：謝謝您的承擔、付出。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：其實我每一次院會質詢，都花比較多的時間來論述，為什麼？因為我總覺得其實在我們臺灣這片國土之下的人民，對我們自己本身的原住民族認識還是很少、很有限，所以我們有時候受到的這些所謂的歧視，它不僅僅是對人的歧視，甚至我們的土地也是受到歧視，說到這個，所以人很重要，因為觀念可以改變很多的政策。以過去我們原住民守護山林來說，我們守護了千百年，直到蔡總統任內，2016年原住民終於開始領取禁伐補償金，這個禁伐補償金上路以來，其實也是且戰且走。像我這幾年一直針對禁伐就是要落實禁伐的精神，不要東扣西扣，像那些崩塌地、路面等等，非常謝謝原民會，在今年度已經正式上路，就是會落實禁伐精神，大家也很高興。像我們的林保署幾十年來，有所謂的獎勵輔導造林。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：過去原住民很辛苦，造林20年60萬，說一句實在話，請工人都不夠，可是現在為了要提升國產材的自給率，而且我們配合未來的趨勢──碳匯，有新植林6年這樣一個規定的趨勢，所以我們的新造林政策今年也會上路，已經改成6年60萬最高，我覺得這都是好事，所以院長您記不記得，我上個會期就特別提醒了，既然碳匯未來是新植林6年的有價，既然我們的新造林政策也是提高很多、很多倍，那麼如果我們的禁伐補償金不提高，恐怕會面臨許多人砍樹造林。如果我們的法令沒有配合期程同步上路，你不要說慢個2年、3年，很可能這2年、3年很多人就砍樹了、就造林了。院長您上次有答應我，會責成原民會把經費做適當的調升，所以我其實也很想知道、族人也很想知道，到底進度如何？"],["陳院長建仁：我先請主委談一下，然後我再來補充。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：簡短回答就好。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：好，跟委員報告，原住民族保留地禁伐補償條例，我想委員都很清楚，因為這個補償的面積、金額是明定在法律裡面，這個要透過法律的研議才可以做進一步的處理。"],["陳院長建仁：我們來修法。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，所以第一，我們要修法，修法要有進度。第二個，我們適當提高的時候會有財源的問題，所以院長，我們會很想聽聽您的態度或者是主計長的態度，像現在以7萬公頃來計，就是3乘以7，21億；如果以我上次講的提高到5萬，5乘以7，35億，我不知道主計長您會支持嗎？您覺得很多嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我想第一個，如果這個要修法，我們當然來修法，不過我首先要謝謝委員反映了族人的心聲，這對我們來說是相當的重要。第二個，如果這個經費的部分的話，我請主計長來說明。"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，經費如果是符合法令，大家是認同編在預算裡面，我們當然就會支持。謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那也順便謝謝院長、主委還有主計長，因為我多次的質詢，終於今年度我們已經正式看到禁伐補償金不再動用原民會的綜合發展基金，而是列在原民會的公務預算，在這邊謝謝大家。","另外，我也要提到國土計畫法，其實我們喊了幾十年，終於明年4月要正式上路，原住民很期待、很期待，因為終於有人正視我們了，謝謝我們的新政府，因為過去我們詬病的就是，為什麼要用平地的那一套土地規則來去看山坡地的土地規則？明明我們的農牧用地就是長在山坡上，可是為什麼要適用平地的標準？明明我們在山上蓋房子，我們的建蔽率、我們的容積率怎麼可以等同於在平地蓋房子？所以很高興國土計畫法也會配合我們的原住民族土地使用管制規則。","可是為什麼我今天要來問？因為預告應該是今年的1月，可是我就沒有看到，我又去查，哇！原來原民會送營建署好像送了4次，所以我們會緊張啊！為什麼？明年國土計畫法大家上路，原住民無感，因為我們在等的是原住民族土地使用管制規則，所以這個部分是不是也請內政部、原民會能夠加緊協商，讓這個土地使用管制規則可以趕快上路，可以嗎？"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。再來，我要講的就是原保條例，上個會期原保條例幾乎要通過了，其實我們在協商的時候，我也是最後一個離開那個會場，我懂大家對這個原保條例有很多的疑慮，但是我要藉這個機會來跟院長報告，原保條例很重要、很重要，原住民期待很久。第一個，至少要提升它的法律位階，因為一旦面對一般的法，我們就要退讓；另外，好比我們過去長期詬病的借名登記或者是現在很多人都現金買原保地，我們在等待的這幾十年，其實原住民保留地已經很多很多都流失到別人的手上。","又或者攸關轉型正義的，像公有土地的增劃編，我舉個簡單的例子，那些居住在永久屋回不了山林的家的這些人，我們是不是應該讓他們的永久屋也變成原保地？另外，我們談的像那些我們過去的祖居地，也許現在在林保署手上、在退輔會手上，我們也在等待這部法讓我們的祖居地可以回來變成原保地；又或者很多具有歷史傳統淵源的、使用事實的，過去我們增劃編只能夠用在原鄉地區，那這個法通過了之後，只要有歷史淵源、使用事實，我們都可以透過這個法增劃編。所以我想要請教的就是，因為屆期不續審，這個會期原民會會提出來嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：跟委員報告，剛剛委員指教那些都是在原來的草案裡面就可以解決了，不過很可惜去年沒有完成三讀……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那我們今年……院長……"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：這個部分我們會把各個委員的不同意見納入，全盤檢討以後再做後續的處理。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝院長。","另外，我也要跟院長報告，其實我進入到立法院的第1年，族人有來找我，他們提到小型露營場可不可以合法化？所以我也陪伴他們走了兩年，透過質詢、開公聽會、很多場的協調會，終於也在2022年正式上路。可是我要跟院長報告，當然我要謝謝交通部願意成為主管機關，也要謝謝內政部願意去修改非都土地管制規則第六條的附表一，納入容許項目，可是這一年半以來寥寥可數，申請合法通過的可能不會超過十間。最主要的原因是我們的19項環境敏感地區，原本我們立這個法是為了讓兩千多個小型露營場，非法的讓它合法化，我們農地農用、林地林用，而且是低限度的利用，去讓小型露營場合法化。所以在這個過程當中，我們發現原來大部分的都位在19項環境敏感地區，結果用這個法反而是幫新設的露營場開門，我覺得這個是本末倒置的。這個部分，我們還是希望觀光署邀集各部會，去做一個19項環境敏感地區……因為我查過很久都沒有檢討、都沒有更新，而且一劃都是一大塊的劃。院長，我們可以請交通部來重新檢討嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我想這個案子如果是交通部主責的話，我們會請交通部來好好檢討。確實這個既然已經上路了，就應該看怎麼樣來讓更多的人合法化。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。"],["王部長國材：我想主要還是在地目使用，剛才談到環境敏感地帶，因為它跨了很多部門，尤其在農業部的部分，我想委員已經講到，我們希望把兩千多間場地違法的讓它合法，的確現在碰到用地的瓶頸，我們儘快召開會議來討論。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝院長、謝謝部長。又例如野保法也是列入優先法案，但是我看到農業部的法案說明「未來不論預防農損或原住民狩獵皆不得使用獸鋏」，我是不曉得立法的理由，但是我想讓院長知道，完全的禁絕，如果有農損會有補償的措施嗎？我要講的是說，今天住在山上的這些人，這些年來比幾十年前的山林更困苦，又要跟猴子、又要跟山豬、又要跟山羌，他的農損很嚴重，我覺得如果完全禁絕，但他真的有這個生活需求而走入地下化，未來動輒被罰、引起民怨，我們的民意代表一定會有很多很多的質詢跟反映，我想這也不是大家所樂見的。我覺得是不是應該用治理去取代完全的禁絕？就是什麼人可以、什麼人不可以；什麼地方可以、什麼地方不可以；什麼材質可以、什麼材質不可以，應該要去訂定這樣的管理辦法，不曉得部長您覺得？"],["陳代理部長駿季：跟委員說明一下，我們禁止狩獵的獵鋏是一個非常傳統的獵鋏，那個是當動物被獵了以後，牠腳可能會斷掉的部分，而其他套索的部分，我們是沒有禁止的，這是第一個說明。第二個說明，針對原住民的狩獵，我們也尊重原住民整個文化的多元性，所以我們在狩獵方面也做了三階段的改進，最後的一個階段就是讓原住民自主狩獵的管理，就是由原住民自己訂他的狩獵公約，用備查的方式……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝，部長這樣子我明白，謝謝您。我剛剛舉這些例子，其實都只是在反映住在山上這些人的意見，恐怕就是因為我們居住的環境不同、生活習慣不同、文化慣習不同，我們常常用自己的想法去幫人家想辦法，結果弄得大家都不開心。","像礦業法去年修訂了那個霸王條款之後，經濟部就有了第一個針對廠商申請駁回的行政處分書。潭南部落的人很高興，可是說一句實在話，潭南部落為這件事情吵了很久，甚至我也陪它隔壁的地利村去打過高等法院，也勝訴，其實是浪費時間。我要講的是說，在地人怎麼會不知道可不可以開發呢？所以部落諮商同意辦法非常的重要，他們知道那個地方是水源地，是會崩塌的，可是為什麼我們的辦法不清不楚，讓廠商有這個機會想要去試試看，然後引起很多的一個紛爭？談到這個部分我們就是要說，現在經濟部做了很好的示範，礦業法裡面做了一個諮商同意的指引，所以我們有了這樣一個好的結果，因此也希望不要每一部法都來做，應該統一在原基法下的部落諮商同意辦法，我們趕快來把它處理。主委，這樣可以嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：跟委員報告，關於諮商同意辦法，我們現在正在研擬，按照過去遇到的一些問題，研擬一個新的辦法出來。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：OK，講到部落諮商同意，一定要講到部落公法人。院長，你可能不知道，部落公法人才會有部落會議主席跟部落會議，但是原住民已經很多年、十幾年都沒開過村民大會，都是開部落會議，那這就有趣了，部落會議有法律地位，部落諮商同意辦法具有效力，但是沒有所謂的部落公法人，也沒有所謂的部落會議主席，還是存在著村長，所以像這樣一個很奇怪的辦法，我們是不是要儘速把部落公法人法制化，院長？"],["陳院長建仁：聽起來是這樣子，不過這個主委比較清楚。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，之後再請主委到辦公室。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：其實今天我要表達的是「人對了，事情就對了」，對於我們原住民自治人才培育的搖籃，原住民族學校法很重要，未來原住民族大學的催生也很重要，甚至如何讓現在的原住民專班就成為原住民大學的雛形科系，這部分我之後會再透過各委員會質詢，再來一一的請各部會瞭解。","今天特別謝謝我們的院長，未來希望可以有機會再看到您繼續為我們努力。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["主席：謝謝伍委員麗華的質詢，謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來，我們請登記第29位黃委員建賓，請質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","牛煦庭","王定宇","林沛祥","李柏毅","翁曉玲","蔡易餘","羅廷瑋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃建賓","郭昱晴","陳培瑜"],"page_start":16,"meetingDate":["2024-03-01"],"gazette_id":"1130501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130501_00002","1130501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1130501_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"149173","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149173","tool":"pyannote","id":"149173-pyannote"},"job_id":"1CLersxGzJFJD0sm","queued_at":"2024-06-02 13:37:59","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-02 13:40:55","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149173"},{"time":"2024-06-02 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\"我們來請光禾召開會來討論。好,謝謝院長,謝謝部長。那又例如那個野保法,也是列入優先法案,但是我看到農業部的法案說明說,未來不論預防農損或原住民狩獵,皆不得使用獸甲。我是不曉得立法的理由,但是我想讓院長知道,完全的禁絕,\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 660.913, \"end\": 661.494, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"光\", \"start\": 661.494, \"end\": 661.634, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"禾\", \"start\": 661.634, \"end\": 661.734, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"召\", \"start\": 661.734, \"end\": 662.675, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 662.675, \"end\": 663.255, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 663.255, \"end\": 663.795, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 663.795, \"end\": 664.636, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, 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928.973, \"end\": 929.133, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 929.133, \"end\": 929.314, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 929.314, \"end\": 929.334, \"score\": 0.993}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:15,267 --> 00:00:18,492\n主席好,有請院長。有請陳院長備詢。五言五行,恭喜你,連著。\n\n2\n00:00:28,156 --> 00:00:56,002\n謝謝院長我第一次選舉當時您是副總統您是我唯一造市場的嘉賓我第二次選舉您是行政院長也是我造市場的唯一嘉賓所以今天很高興在這邊跟您見面選舉的時候我們常說選對的人走對的路人的確很重要我相信您是對的人\n\n3\n00:00:56,687 --> 00:01:13,035\n因為你的溫暖比任何人更溫暖。你的堅韌我們也已經看到比任何人更堅韌。在這邊跟您說聲謝謝您的承擔付出。那其實我每一次做院會質詢我其實花比較多的時間來論述。\n\n4\n00:01:15,083 --> 00:01:37,522\n為什麼因為我總覺得其實我們臺灣這片國土之下的人民對我們自己本身的原住民族認識還是很少很有限所以我們有時候受到的這些所謂的歧視他不僅僅是對人的歧視甚至對我們的土地\n\n5\n00:01:53,851 --> 00:02:16,939\n那麼直到蔡總統2016年,原住民終於開始領取禁法補償金。那這個禁法補償金上路以來其實也是且戰且走。那像我這幾年我一直針對禁法就是要落實禁法的精神,不要東扣西扣,像那些崩塌地路面等等。那非常謝謝園民會。\n\n6\n00:02:18,359 --> 00:02:34,565\n在今年度已經正式上路就是會落實禁法精神大家也很高興那像我們的林保署幾十年來有所謂的獎勵輔導造齡過去原住民很辛苦啊造齡20年60萬說一句實在話請工人都不夠\n\n7\n00:02:38,866 --> 00:03:05,159\n可是現在為了要提升國有財的自主利耗而且我們配合未來的趨勢探櫃有這種新殖林6年的這樣的一個規定趨勢所以我們的新造林政策今年也會上路已經改成6年60萬最高那我覺得這都是好事所以院長您記不記得我上個會期就特別提醒了\n\n8\n00:03:06,019 --> 00:03:23,098\n既然探會未來是新殖林6年的有價,既然我們的新造林政策也是提高很多很多倍,那麼如果我們的禁法補償金不提高,恐怕會面臨許多人砍樹造林。\n\n9\n00:03:24,059 --> 00:03:47,967\n那如果我們的法令沒有配合其成同步上路你不要說慢個兩年三年很可能這兩年三年就很多人就砍樹了就照領了所以院長您上次有答應我就是責成原民會把經費做適當的調升所以我其實也很想知道族人也很想知道到底進度如何\n\n10\n00:03:49,250 --> 00:04:00,959\n我先請主委談一下,然後我再來做補充。簡短回答就好。好,跟委員報告,因為原子民族保留地禁法補償條例,我想委員都很清楚,因為\n\n11\n00:04:23,991 --> 00:04:43,485\n我們會很想聽聽您的態度,或者是主記長的態度啊。像現在以7萬公頃來計,就是3721億。那如果以我上次講的提高到5萬,5、7、35億。我不知道主記長您會支持嗎?您覺得很多嗎?\n\n12\n00:04:44,858 --> 00:05:07,455\n我想第一個如果這個要修法我們當然來修法不過我首先要謝謝委員反映了這個族人的心聲這對我們來說是相當的重要那第二個呢如果這個經費的部分的話我請主席長那個跟那個委員報告一下經費到如果是如果是復活法令大家是認同編在預算裡面我們當然就會\n\n13\n00:05:08,335 --> 00:05:08,835\n國土計劃法\n\n14\n00:05:29,747 --> 00:05:49,568\n其實我們喊了幾十年,終於明年4月要正式上路。原住民很期待很期待,因為終於有人正視我們了。謝謝我們的新政府,因為過去我們詬病的就是為什麼要用平地的那一套土地的規則來去看山坡地的土地規則。\n\n15\n00:05:50,729 --> 00:05:59,879\n明明我們的農牧用地就是長在山坡上可是為什麼要用適用平地的標準明明我們在山上蓋房子我們的建壁率\n\n16\n00:06:00,933 --> 00:06:23,412\n我們的容積率怎麼可以等同於在平地蓋房子所以呢很高興我們的國土計畫法也會配合我們出現的就是原住民族土地使用管制規則可是為什麼我今天要來問因為預告應該是今年的1月可是我就沒有看到我又去查哇原來原民會送我們的\n\n17\n00:06:24,353 --> 00:06:24,513\n﹚國土計畫法﹚\n\n18\n00:06:47,052 --> 00:07:00,687\n是好謝謝哈好那再來哈我要講的就是元寶條例上個會期元寶條例幾乎要通過了其實我們在協商的時候我也是最後一個離開那個會場那我懂\n\n19\n00:07:01,348 --> 00:07:20,294\n大家對這個原保條例有很多的疑慮但是我要借這個機會要來跟院長報告原保條例很重要很重要原住民期待很久第一個至少要把它提升它的法律位階因為我們一旦面對一般的法我們就要退讓\n\n20\n00:07:51,958 --> 00:07:54,492\n我們是不是應該讓永久屋也變成元寶地?\n\n21\n00:07:56,038 --> 00:08:22,511\n另外我們談的像那些我們過去的主居地也許現在在林保署手上在退府會手上我們也在等待這步法讓我們的主居地可以回來變成原保地又或者我們很多具有歷史傳統淵源的使用事實的那過去我們振化邊只能夠用在原鄉地區那這個法通過的之後只要有歷史淵源使用事實我們都可以透過這個法振化邊\n\n22\n00:08:23,291 --> 00:08:32,111\n所以我想要請教的就是說因為屆期不去審那我希望說這個會期那個圓明會會提出來嗎?\n\n23\n00:08:33,934 --> 00:08:36,475\n我進入到立法院的第一年主任有來找我\n\n24\n00:08:58,482 --> 00:09:24,835\n他們就是提到小型露營場可不可以合法化所以我也陪伴他們走了兩年透過質詢開公廳會很多場的協調會那終於也在2022年正式上路可是我要跟院長報告當然我要謝謝交通部願意成為主管機關也要謝謝內政部願意去修改非都土地管制規則第6條的副表1納入容許項目可是這一年半以來喔\n\n25\n00:09:25,655 --> 00:09:25,936\n臨時提案時間。）\n\n26\n00:09:35,717 --> 00:10:03,782\n原本我們立這個法是為了讓2000多個小型露營場非法的讓它合法化而且我們是農地農用、林地林用而且是低限度的利用去讓小型露營場合法化所以在這個過程當中我們發現原來大部分的人都位在19項環境敏感地區結果我們用這個法反而是去幫新設的露營場開門\n\n27\n00:10:29,602 --> 00:10:43,583\n我想這個案子如果是交通部主責的話那我們會請交通部來好好檢討確實這個既然已經有上路了就應該看怎麼樣來讓更多的人合法化\n\n28\n00:10:45,812 --> 00:10:59,532\n主要還是在地幕使用,剛才談到環境敏感地帶,因為它跨了很多部門,尤其在農業部的部分。我想我們已經講到,我們希望把兩千多場違法的和緩,的確現在碰到用地的瓶頸。\n\n29\n00:11:00,913 --> 00:11:21,526\n我們來請光禾召開會來討論。好,謝謝院長,謝謝部長。那又例如那個野保法,也是列入優先法案,但是我看到農業部的法案說明說,未來不論預防農損或原住民狩獵,皆不得使用獸甲。我是不曉得立法的理由,但是我想讓院長知道,完全的禁絕,\n\n30\n00:11:23,052 --> 00:11:42,208\n那其實如果有農損其實會有補償的措施嗎又或者我要講的是說今天住在山上的這些人這些年來比幾十年前的山林更困苦又要跟猴子又要跟山豬又要跟山羌他的農損很嚴重\n\n31\n00:11:44,150 --> 00:12:07,326\n但是我覺得如果完全禁絕那就是他真的有這個生活需求他走入地下化未來呢動輒被罰引起民怨我們的民意代表一定會有很多很多的質詢跟反應那我想這也不是大家所樂見的所以我覺得是不是應該用治理去取代完全的禁絕\n\n32\n00:12:08,146 --> 00:12:18,337\n就是什麽人可以什麽人不可以什麽地方可以什麽地方不可以什麽材質可以什麽材質不可以應該要去訂定這樣的管理辦法不曉得部長您覺得\n\n33\n00:12:20,073 --> 00:12:45,578\n跟委員說明一下就是我們禁止那個狩獵的獵甲是一個非常傳統的獵甲那個是當動物被獵了以後牠腳可能會斷掉的部分那其他的那個套索的部分我們是沒有禁止的這個第一個說明那第二個說明是針對原住民的狩獵那我們也尊重原住民的整個文化的多元性所以我們在狩獵方面也做了三階段的改進最後的一個階段就是讓原住民自主狩獵的管理\n\n34\n00:12:46,198 --> 00:13:05,476\n就是由原住民自己定他的狩獵公約用背他的方式。那部長這樣子我明白謝謝您那我剛剛舉這些例子其實我都只是在反映住在山上的這些人的意見那恐怕就是因為我們居住的環境不同生活習慣不同文化關係不同\n\n35\n00:13:05,976 --> 00:13:28,832\n我們常常用自己的想法去幫人家想辦法結果呢弄得大家都不開心所以像礦業法去年修法修訂了那個霸王條款之後經濟部就有了第一個就是針對產商申請駁回的行政處分書那所以台南部都很高興可是呢說一句實在話台南部落會這件事情吵了很久\n\n36\n00:13:29,773 --> 00:13:44,314\n甚至我也陪他隔壁的地利村去打過高等法院那也勝訴那其實浪費時間可是我要講的是說在地人怎麼會不知道可不可以開發呢所以部落之章同意辦法非常的重要他們知道那個地方\n\n37\n00:13:44,855 --> 00:14:12,736\n是水源地是會崩塌的可是為什麼我們的辦法不清不楚讓廠商有這個機會想要去試試看然後引起很多的一個紛爭所以談到這個部分我們就是要談到說現在經濟部做了很好的示範礦業法裡面做了一個諮商同意的指引所以我們有了這樣的一個好的結果因此我們也希望不要每一步法都來做應該統一在原基法下的部落諮商同意辦法我們趕快來把它處理\n\n38\n00:14:14,477 --> 00:14:41,669\n所以主委這樣可以嗎?關於諮商統一辦法我們現在正在研擬按照過去遇到的一些問題研擬一個新的辦法出來OK那講到這個部落諮商統一一定要講到部落公法人院長你可能不知道齁部落公法人才會有部落會議主席跟部落會議但是原住民齁已經很多年十幾年都沒有開過村民大會都是開部落會議那這就有趣了部落會議有法律地位\n\n39\n00:14:42,349 --> 00:14:56,068\n部落諮商同意辦法具有效力但是沒有所謂的部落公法人也沒有所謂的部落會議主席還是存在村長所以像這樣子一個很奇怪的辦法是不是我們應該要讓他盡速把部落公法人法治化院長\n\n40\n00:14:57,816 --> 00:15:24,649\n聽起來是這樣子不過這個委員主委比較清楚那之後再請那個主委再到辦公室那我想今天我其實要表達的就是說人對了事情就對了所以我們原住民人才的自治的培育搖籃所以原住民族學校法很重要那未來的原住民族大學的催生也很重要甚至如何讓現在的原住民專班就成為原住民大學的一個雛形科系那這個部分我想\n\n41\n00:15:25,369 --> 00:15:29,334\n之後我會再透過各委員會的質詢再來一一的\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n15267\t18492\t主席好,有請院長。有請陳院長備詢。五言五行,恭喜你,連著。\n28156\t56002\t謝謝院長我第一次選舉當時您是副總統您是我唯一造市場的嘉賓我第二次選舉您是行政院長也是我造市場的唯一嘉賓所以今天很高興在這邊跟您見面選舉的時候我們常說選對的人走對的路人的確很重要我相信您是對的人\n56687\t73035\t因為你的溫暖比任何人更溫暖。你的堅韌我們也已經看到比任何人更堅韌。在這邊跟您說聲謝謝您的承擔付出。那其實我每一次做院會質詢我其實花比較多的時間來論述。\n75083\t97522\t為什麼因為我總覺得其實我們臺灣這片國土之下的人民對我們自己本身的原住民族認識還是很少很有限所以我們有時候受到的這些所謂的歧視他不僅僅是對人的歧視甚至對我們的土地\n98183\t112892\t﹏﹏\n113851\t136939\t那麼直到蔡總統2016年,原住民終於開始領取禁法補償金。那這個禁法補償金上路以來其實也是且戰且走。那像我這幾年我一直針對禁法就是要落實禁法的精神,不要東扣西扣,像那些崩塌地路面等等。那非常謝謝園民會。\n138359\t154565\t在今年度已經正式上路就是會落實禁法精神大家也很高興那像我們的林保署幾十年來有所謂的獎勵輔導造齡過去原住民很辛苦啊造齡20年60萬說一句實在話請工人都不夠\n158866\t185159\t可是現在為了要提升國有財的自主利耗而且我們配合未來的趨勢探櫃有這種新殖林6年的這樣的一個規定趨勢所以我們的新造林政策今年也會上路已經改成6年60萬最高那我覺得這都是好事所以院長您記不記得我上個會期就特別提醒了\n186019\t203098\t既然探會未來是新殖林6年的有價,既然我們的新造林政策也是提高很多很多倍,那麼如果我們的禁法補償金不提高,恐怕會面臨許多人砍樹造林。\n204059\t227967\t那如果我們的法令沒有配合其成同步上路你不要說慢個兩年三年很可能這兩年三年就很多人就砍樹了就照領了所以院長您上次有答應我就是責成原民會把經費做適當的調升所以我其實也很想知道族人也很想知道到底進度如何\n229250\t240959\t我先請主委談一下,然後我再來做補充。簡短回答就好。好,跟委員報告,因為原子民族保留地禁法補償條例,我想委員都很清楚,因為\n242381\t263951\t﹚議員﹚\n263991\t283485\t我們會很想聽聽您的態度,或者是主記長的態度啊。像現在以7萬公頃來計,就是3721億。那如果以我上次講的提高到5萬,5、7、35億。我不知道主記長您會支持嗎?您覺得很多嗎?\n284858\t307455\t我想第一個如果這個要修法我們當然來修法不過我首先要謝謝委員反映了這個族人的心聲這對我們來說是相當的重要那第二個呢如果這個經費的部分的話我請主席長那個跟那個委員報告一下經費到如果是如果是復活法令大家是認同編在預算裡面我們當然就會\n308335\t308835\t國土計劃法\n329747\t349568\t其實我們喊了幾十年,終於明年4月要正式上路。原住民很期待很期待,因為終於有人正視我們了。謝謝我們的新政府,因為過去我們詬病的就是為什麼要用平地的那一套土地的規則來去看山坡地的土地規則。\n350729\t359879\t明明我們的農牧用地就是長在山坡上可是為什麼要用適用平地的標準明明我們在山上蓋房子我們的建壁率\n360933\t383412\t我們的容積率怎麼可以等同於在平地蓋房子所以呢很高興我們的國土計畫法也會配合我們出現的就是原住民族土地使用管制規則可是為什麼我今天要來問因為預告應該是今年的1月可是我就沒有看到我又去查哇原來原民會送我們的\n384353\t384513\t﹚國土計畫法﹚\n407052\t420687\t是好謝謝哈好那再來哈我要講的就是元寶條例上個會期元寶條例幾乎要通過了其實我們在協商的時候我也是最後一個離開那個會場那我懂\n421348\t440294\t大家對這個原保條例有很多的疑慮但是我要借這個機會要來跟院長報告原保條例很重要很重要原住民期待很久第一個至少要把它提升它的法律位階因為我們一旦面對一般的法我們就要退讓\n441254\t471254\t﹗\n471958\t474492\t我們是不是應該讓永久屋也變成元寶地?\n476038\t502511\t另外我們談的像那些我們過去的主居地也許現在在林保署手上在退府會手上我們也在等待這步法讓我們的主居地可以回來變成原保地又或者我們很多具有歷史傳統淵源的使用事實的那過去我們振化邊只能夠用在原鄉地區那這個法通過的之後只要有歷史淵源使用事實我們都可以透過這個法振化邊\n503291\t512111\t所以我想要請教的就是說因為屆期不去審那我希望說這個會期那個圓明會會提出來嗎?\n513934\t516475\t我進入到立法院的第一年主任有來找我\n538482\t564835\t他們就是提到小型露營場可不可以合法化所以我也陪伴他們走了兩年透過質詢開公廳會很多場的協調會那終於也在2022年正式上路可是我要跟院長報告當然我要謝謝交通部願意成為主管機關也要謝謝內政部願意去修改非都土地管制規則第6條的副表1納入容許項目可是這一年半以來喔\n565655\t565936\t臨時提案時間。）\n575717\t603782\t原本我們立這個法是為了讓2000多個小型露營場非法的讓它合法化而且我們是農地農用、林地林用而且是低限度的利用去讓小型露營場合法化所以在這個過程當中我們發現原來大部分的人都位在19項環境敏感地區結果我們用這個法反而是去幫新設的露營場開門\n605452\t629582\t﹗\n629602\t643583\t我想這個案子如果是交通部主責的話那我們會請交通部來好好檢討確實這個既然已經有上路了就應該看怎麼樣來讓更多的人合法化\n645812\t659532\t主要還是在地幕使用,剛才談到環境敏感地帶,因為它跨了很多部門,尤其在農業部的部分。我想我們已經講到,我們希望把兩千多場違法的和緩,的確現在碰到用地的瓶頸。\n660913\t681526\t我們來請光禾召開會來討論。好,謝謝院長,謝謝部長。那又例如那個野保法,也是列入優先法案,但是我看到農業部的法案說明說,未來不論預防農損或原住民狩獵,皆不得使用獸甲。我是不曉得立法的理由,但是我想讓院長知道,完全的禁絕,\n683052\t702208\t那其實如果有農損其實會有補償的措施嗎又或者我要講的是說今天住在山上的這些人這些年來比幾十年前的山林更困苦又要跟猴子又要跟山豬又要跟山羌他的農損很嚴重\n704150\t727326\t但是我覺得如果完全禁絕那就是他真的有這個生活需求他走入地下化未來呢動輒被罰引起民怨我們的民意代表一定會有很多很多的質詢跟反應那我想這也不是大家所樂見的所以我覺得是不是應該用治理去取代完全的禁絕\n728146\t738337\t就是什麽人可以什麽人不可以什麽地方可以什麽地方不可以什麽材質可以什麽材質不可以應該要去訂定這樣的管理辦法不曉得部長您覺得\n740073\t765578\t跟委員說明一下就是我們禁止那個狩獵的獵甲是一個非常傳統的獵甲那個是當動物被獵了以後牠腳可能會斷掉的部分那其他的那個套索的部分我們是沒有禁止的這個第一個說明那第二個說明是針對原住民的狩獵那我們也尊重原住民的整個文化的多元性所以我們在狩獵方面也做了三階段的改進最後的一個階段就是讓原住民自主狩獵的管理\n766198\t785476\t就是由原住民自己定他的狩獵公約用背他的方式。那部長這樣子我明白謝謝您那我剛剛舉這些例子其實我都只是在反映住在山上的這些人的意見那恐怕就是因為我們居住的環境不同生活習慣不同文化關係不同\n785976\t808832\t我們常常用自己的想法去幫人家想辦法結果呢弄得大家都不開心所以像礦業法去年修法修訂了那個霸王條款之後經濟部就有了第一個就是針對產商申請駁回的行政處分書那所以台南部都很高興可是呢說一句實在話台南部落會這件事情吵了很久\n809773\t824314\t甚至我也陪他隔壁的地利村去打過高等法院那也勝訴那其實浪費時間可是我要講的是說在地人怎麼會不知道可不可以開發呢所以部落之章同意辦法非常的重要他們知道那個地方\n824855\t852736\t是水源地是會崩塌的可是為什麼我們的辦法不清不楚讓廠商有這個機會想要去試試看然後引起很多的一個紛爭所以談到這個部分我們就是要談到說現在經濟部做了很好的示範礦業法裡面做了一個諮商同意的指引所以我們有了這樣的一個好的結果因此我們也希望不要每一步法都來做應該統一在原基法下的部落諮商同意辦法我們趕快來把它處理\n854477\t881669\t所以主委這樣可以嗎?關於諮商統一辦法我們現在正在研擬按照過去遇到的一些問題研擬一個新的辦法出來OK那講到這個部落諮商統一一定要講到部落公法人院長你可能不知道齁部落公法人才會有部落會議主席跟部落會議但是原住民齁已經很多年十幾年都沒有開過村民大會都是開部落會議那這就有趣了部落會議有法律地位\n882349\t896068\t部落諮商同意辦法具有效力但是沒有所謂的部落公法人也沒有所謂的部落會議主席還是存在村長所以像這樣子一個很奇怪的辦法是不是我們應該要讓他盡速把部落公法人法治化院長\n897816\t924649\t聽起來是這樣子不過這個委員主委比較清楚那之後再請那個主委再到辦公室那我想今天我其實要表達的就是說人對了事情就對了所以我們原住民人才的自治的培育搖籃所以原住民族學校法很重要那未來的原住民族大學的催生也很重要甚至如何讓現在的原住民專班就成為原住民大學的一個雛形科系那這個部分我想\n925369\t929334\t之後我會再透過各委員會的質詢再來一一的\n","txt":"主席好,有請院長。有請陳院長備詢。五言五行,恭喜你,連著。\n謝謝院長我第一次選舉當時您是副總統您是我唯一造市場的嘉賓我第二次選舉您是行政院長也是我造市場的唯一嘉賓所以今天很高興在這邊跟您見面選舉的時候我們常說選對的人走對的路人的確很重要我相信您是對的人\n因為你的溫暖比任何人更溫暖。你的堅韌我們也已經看到比任何人更堅韌。在這邊跟您說聲謝謝您的承擔付出。那其實我每一次做院會質詢我其實花比較多的時間來論述。\n為什麼因為我總覺得其實我們臺灣這片國土之下的人民對我們自己本身的原住民族認識還是很少很有限所以我們有時候受到的這些所謂的歧視他不僅僅是對人的歧視甚至對我們的土地\n﹏﹏\n那麼直到蔡總統2016年,原住民終於開始領取禁法補償金。那這個禁法補償金上路以來其實也是且戰且走。那像我這幾年我一直針對禁法就是要落實禁法的精神,不要東扣西扣,像那些崩塌地路面等等。那非常謝謝園民會。\n在今年度已經正式上路就是會落實禁法精神大家也很高興那像我們的林保署幾十年來有所謂的獎勵輔導造齡過去原住民很辛苦啊造齡20年60萬說一句實在話請工人都不夠\n可是現在為了要提升國有財的自主利耗而且我們配合未來的趨勢探櫃有這種新殖林6年的這樣的一個規定趨勢所以我們的新造林政策今年也會上路已經改成6年60萬最高那我覺得這都是好事所以院長您記不記得我上個會期就特別提醒了\n既然探會未來是新殖林6年的有價,既然我們的新造林政策也是提高很多很多倍,那麼如果我們的禁法補償金不提高,恐怕會面臨許多人砍樹造林。\n那如果我們的法令沒有配合其成同步上路你不要說慢個兩年三年很可能這兩年三年就很多人就砍樹了就照領了所以院長您上次有答應我就是責成原民會把經費做適當的調升所以我其實也很想知道族人也很想知道到底進度如何\n我先請主委談一下,然後我再來做補充。簡短回答就好。好,跟委員報告,因為原子民族保留地禁法補償條例,我想委員都很清楚,因為\n﹚議員﹚\n我們會很想聽聽您的態度,或者是主記長的態度啊。像現在以7萬公頃來計,就是3721億。那如果以我上次講的提高到5萬,5、7、35億。我不知道主記長您會支持嗎?您覺得很多嗎?\n我想第一個如果這個要修法我們當然來修法不過我首先要謝謝委員反映了這個族人的心聲這對我們來說是相當的重要那第二個呢如果這個經費的部分的話我請主席長那個跟那個委員報告一下經費到如果是如果是復活法令大家是認同編在預算裡面我們當然就會\n國土計劃法\n其實我們喊了幾十年,終於明年4月要正式上路。原住民很期待很期待,因為終於有人正視我們了。謝謝我們的新政府,因為過去我們詬病的就是為什麼要用平地的那一套土地的規則來去看山坡地的土地規則。\n明明我們的農牧用地就是長在山坡上可是為什麼要用適用平地的標準明明我們在山上蓋房子我們的建壁率\n我們的容積率怎麼可以等同於在平地蓋房子所以呢很高興我們的國土計畫法也會配合我們出現的就是原住民族土地使用管制規則可是為什麼我今天要來問因為預告應該是今年的1月可是我就沒有看到我又去查哇原來原民會送我們的\n﹚國土計畫法﹚\n是好謝謝哈好那再來哈我要講的就是元寶條例上個會期元寶條例幾乎要通過了其實我們在協商的時候我也是最後一個離開那個會場那我懂\n大家對這個原保條例有很多的疑慮但是我要借這個機會要來跟院長報告原保條例很重要很重要原住民期待很久第一個至少要把它提升它的法律位階因為我們一旦面對一般的法我們就要退讓\n﹗\n我們是不是應該讓永久屋也變成元寶地?\n另外我們談的像那些我們過去的主居地也許現在在林保署手上在退府會手上我們也在等待這步法讓我們的主居地可以回來變成原保地又或者我們很多具有歷史傳統淵源的使用事實的那過去我們振化邊只能夠用在原鄉地區那這個法通過的之後只要有歷史淵源使用事實我們都可以透過這個法振化邊\n所以我想要請教的就是說因為屆期不去審那我希望說這個會期那個圓明會會提出來嗎?\n我進入到立法院的第一年主任有來找我\n他們就是提到小型露營場可不可以合法化所以我也陪伴他們走了兩年透過質詢開公廳會很多場的協調會那終於也在2022年正式上路可是我要跟院長報告當然我要謝謝交通部願意成為主管機關也要謝謝內政部願意去修改非都土地管制規則第6條的副表1納入容許項目可是這一年半以來喔\n臨時提案時間。）\n原本我們立這個法是為了讓2000多個小型露營場非法的讓它合法化而且我們是農地農用、林地林用而且是低限度的利用去讓小型露營場合法化所以在這個過程當中我們發現原來大部分的人都位在19項環境敏感地區結果我們用這個法反而是去幫新設的露營場開門\n﹗\n我想這個案子如果是交通部主責的話那我們會請交通部來好好檢討確實這個既然已經有上路了就應該看怎麼樣來讓更多的人合法化\n主要還是在地幕使用,剛才談到環境敏感地帶,因為它跨了很多部門,尤其在農業部的部分。我想我們已經講到,我們希望把兩千多場違法的和緩,的確現在碰到用地的瓶頸。\n我們來請光禾召開會來討論。好,謝謝院長,謝謝部長。那又例如那個野保法,也是列入優先法案,但是我看到農業部的法案說明說,未來不論預防農損或原住民狩獵,皆不得使用獸甲。我是不曉得立法的理由,但是我想讓院長知道,完全的禁絕,\n那其實如果有農損其實會有補償的措施嗎又或者我要講的是說今天住在山上的這些人這些年來比幾十年前的山林更困苦又要跟猴子又要跟山豬又要跟山羌他的農損很嚴重\n但是我覺得如果完全禁絕那就是他真的有這個生活需求他走入地下化未來呢動輒被罰引起民怨我們的民意代表一定會有很多很多的質詢跟反應那我想這也不是大家所樂見的所以我覺得是不是應該用治理去取代完全的禁絕\n就是什麽人可以什麽人不可以什麽地方可以什麽地方不可以什麽材質可以什麽材質不可以應該要去訂定這樣的管理辦法不曉得部長您覺得\n跟委員說明一下就是我們禁止那個狩獵的獵甲是一個非常傳統的獵甲那個是當動物被獵了以後牠腳可能會斷掉的部分那其他的那個套索的部分我們是沒有禁止的這個第一個說明那第二個說明是針對原住民的狩獵那我們也尊重原住民的整個文化的多元性所以我們在狩獵方面也做了三階段的改進最後的一個階段就是讓原住民自主狩獵的管理\n就是由原住民自己定他的狩獵公約用背他的方式。那部長這樣子我明白謝謝您那我剛剛舉這些例子其實我都只是在反映住在山上的這些人的意見那恐怕就是因為我們居住的環境不同生活習慣不同文化關係不同\n我們常常用自己的想法去幫人家想辦法結果呢弄得大家都不開心所以像礦業法去年修法修訂了那個霸王條款之後經濟部就有了第一個就是針對產商申請駁回的行政處分書那所以台南部都很高興可是呢說一句實在話台南部落會這件事情吵了很久\n甚至我也陪他隔壁的地利村去打過高等法院那也勝訴那其實浪費時間可是我要講的是說在地人怎麼會不知道可不可以開發呢所以部落之章同意辦法非常的重要他們知道那個地方\n是水源地是會崩塌的可是為什麼我們的辦法不清不楚讓廠商有這個機會想要去試試看然後引起很多的一個紛爭所以談到這個部分我們就是要談到說現在經濟部做了很好的示範礦業法裡面做了一個諮商同意的指引所以我們有了這樣的一個好的結果因此我們也希望不要每一步法都來做應該統一在原基法下的部落諮商同意辦法我們趕快來把它處理\n所以主委這樣可以嗎?關於諮商統一辦法我們現在正在研擬按照過去遇到的一些問題研擬一個新的辦法出來OK那講到這個部落諮商統一一定要講到部落公法人院長你可能不知道齁部落公法人才會有部落會議主席跟部落會議但是原住民齁已經很多年十幾年都沒有開過村民大會都是開部落會議那這就有趣了部落會議有法律地位\n部落諮商同意辦法具有效力但是沒有所謂的部落公法人也沒有所謂的部落會議主席還是存在村長所以像這樣子一個很奇怪的辦法是不是我們應該要讓他盡速把部落公法人法治化院長\n聽起來是這樣子不過這個委員主委比較清楚那之後再請那個主委再到辦公室那我想今天我其實要表達的就是說人對了事情就對了所以我們原住民人才的自治的培育搖籃所以原住民族學校法很重要那未來的原住民族大學的催生也很重要甚至如何讓現在的原住民專班就成為原住民大學的一個雛形科系那這個部分我想\n之後我會再透過各委員會的質詢再來一一的\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:15.267 --> 00:18.492\n主席好,有請院長。有請陳院長備詢。五言五行,恭喜你,連著。\n\n00:28.156 --> 00:56.002\n謝謝院長我第一次選舉當時您是副總統您是我唯一造市場的嘉賓我第二次選舉您是行政院長也是我造市場的唯一嘉賓所以今天很高興在這邊跟您見面選舉的時候我們常說選對的人走對的路人的確很重要我相信您是對的人\n\n00:56.687 --> 01:13.035\n因為你的溫暖比任何人更溫暖。你的堅韌我們也已經看到比任何人更堅韌。在這邊跟您說聲謝謝您的承擔付出。那其實我每一次做院會質詢我其實花比較多的時間來論述。\n\n01:15.083 --> 01:37.522\n為什麼因為我總覺得其實我們臺灣這片國土之下的人民對我們自己本身的原住民族認識還是很少很有限所以我們有時候受到的這些所謂的歧視他不僅僅是對人的歧視甚至對我們的土地\n\n01:53.851 --> 02:16.939\n那麼直到蔡總統2016年,原住民終於開始領取禁法補償金。那這個禁法補償金上路以來其實也是且戰且走。那像我這幾年我一直針對禁法就是要落實禁法的精神,不要東扣西扣,像那些崩塌地路面等等。那非常謝謝園民會。\n\n02:18.359 --> 02:34.565\n在今年度已經正式上路就是會落實禁法精神大家也很高興那像我們的林保署幾十年來有所謂的獎勵輔導造齡過去原住民很辛苦啊造齡20年60萬說一句實在話請工人都不夠\n\n02:38.866 --> 03:05.159\n可是現在為了要提升國有財的自主利耗而且我們配合未來的趨勢探櫃有這種新殖林6年的這樣的一個規定趨勢所以我們的新造林政策今年也會上路已經改成6年60萬最高那我覺得這都是好事所以院長您記不記得我上個會期就特別提醒了\n\n03:06.019 --> 03:23.098\n既然探會未來是新殖林6年的有價,既然我們的新造林政策也是提高很多很多倍,那麼如果我們的禁法補償金不提高,恐怕會面臨許多人砍樹造林。\n\n03:24.059 --> 03:47.967\n那如果我們的法令沒有配合其成同步上路你不要說慢個兩年三年很可能這兩年三年就很多人就砍樹了就照領了所以院長您上次有答應我就是責成原民會把經費做適當的調升所以我其實也很想知道族人也很想知道到底進度如何\n\n03:49.250 --> 04:00.959\n我先請主委談一下,然後我再來做補充。簡短回答就好。好,跟委員報告,因為原子民族保留地禁法補償條例,我想委員都很清楚,因為\n\n04:23.991 --> 04:43.485\n我們會很想聽聽您的態度,或者是主記長的態度啊。像現在以7萬公頃來計,就是3721億。那如果以我上次講的提高到5萬,5、7、35億。我不知道主記長您會支持嗎?您覺得很多嗎?\n\n04:44.858 --> 05:07.455\n我想第一個如果這個要修法我們當然來修法不過我首先要謝謝委員反映了這個族人的心聲這對我們來說是相當的重要那第二個呢如果這個經費的部分的話我請主席長那個跟那個委員報告一下經費到如果是如果是復活法令大家是認同編在預算裡面我們當然就會\n\n05:08.335 --> 05:08.835\n國土計劃法\n\n05:29.747 --> 05:49.568\n其實我們喊了幾十年,終於明年4月要正式上路。原住民很期待很期待,因為終於有人正視我們了。謝謝我們的新政府,因為過去我們詬病的就是為什麼要用平地的那一套土地的規則來去看山坡地的土地規則。\n\n05:50.729 --> 05:59.879\n明明我們的農牧用地就是長在山坡上可是為什麼要用適用平地的標準明明我們在山上蓋房子我們的建壁率\n\n06:00.933 --> 06:23.412\n我們的容積率怎麼可以等同於在平地蓋房子所以呢很高興我們的國土計畫法也會配合我們出現的就是原住民族土地使用管制規則可是為什麼我今天要來問因為預告應該是今年的1月可是我就沒有看到我又去查哇原來原民會送我們的\n\n06:24.353 --> 06:24.513\n﹚國土計畫法﹚\n\n06:47.052 --> 07:00.687\n是好謝謝哈好那再來哈我要講的就是元寶條例上個會期元寶條例幾乎要通過了其實我們在協商的時候我也是最後一個離開那個會場那我懂\n\n07:01.348 --> 07:20.294\n大家對這個原保條例有很多的疑慮但是我要借這個機會要來跟院長報告原保條例很重要很重要原住民期待很久第一個至少要把它提升它的法律位階因為我們一旦面對一般的法我們就要退讓\n\n07:51.958 --> 07:54.492\n我們是不是應該讓永久屋也變成元寶地?\n\n07:56.038 --> 08:22.511\n另外我們談的像那些我們過去的主居地也許現在在林保署手上在退府會手上我們也在等待這步法讓我們的主居地可以回來變成原保地又或者我們很多具有歷史傳統淵源的使用事實的那過去我們振化邊只能夠用在原鄉地區那這個法通過的之後只要有歷史淵源使用事實我們都可以透過這個法振化邊\n\n08:23.291 --> 08:32.111\n所以我想要請教的就是說因為屆期不去審那我希望說這個會期那個圓明會會提出來嗎?\n\n08:33.934 --> 08:36.475\n我進入到立法院的第一年主任有來找我\n\n08:58.482 --> 09:24.835\n他們就是提到小型露營場可不可以合法化所以我也陪伴他們走了兩年透過質詢開公廳會很多場的協調會那終於也在2022年正式上路可是我要跟院長報告當然我要謝謝交通部願意成為主管機關也要謝謝內政部願意去修改非都土地管制規則第6條的副表1納入容許項目可是這一年半以來喔\n\n09:25.655 --> 09:25.936\n臨時提案時間。）\n\n09:35.717 --> 10:03.782\n原本我們立這個法是為了讓2000多個小型露營場非法的讓它合法化而且我們是農地農用、林地林用而且是低限度的利用去讓小型露營場合法化所以在這個過程當中我們發現原來大部分的人都位在19項環境敏感地區結果我們用這個法反而是去幫新設的露營場開門\n\n10:29.602 --> 10:43.583\n我想這個案子如果是交通部主責的話那我們會請交通部來好好檢討確實這個既然已經有上路了就應該看怎麼樣來讓更多的人合法化\n\n10:45.812 --> 10:59.532\n主要還是在地幕使用,剛才談到環境敏感地帶,因為它跨了很多部門,尤其在農業部的部分。我想我們已經講到,我們希望把兩千多場違法的和緩,的確現在碰到用地的瓶頸。\n\n11:00.913 --> 11:21.526\n我們來請光禾召開會來討論。好,謝謝院長,謝謝部長。那又例如那個野保法,也是列入優先法案,但是我看到農業部的法案說明說,未來不論預防農損或原住民狩獵,皆不得使用獸甲。我是不曉得立法的理由,但是我想讓院長知道,完全的禁絕,\n\n11:23.052 --> 11:42.208\n那其實如果有農損其實會有補償的措施嗎又或者我要講的是說今天住在山上的這些人這些年來比幾十年前的山林更困苦又要跟猴子又要跟山豬又要跟山羌他的農損很嚴重\n\n11:44.150 --> 12:07.326\n但是我覺得如果完全禁絕那就是他真的有這個生活需求他走入地下化未來呢動輒被罰引起民怨我們的民意代表一定會有很多很多的質詢跟反應那我想這也不是大家所樂見的所以我覺得是不是應該用治理去取代完全的禁絕\n\n12:08.146 --> 12:18.337\n就是什麽人可以什麽人不可以什麽地方可以什麽地方不可以什麽材質可以什麽材質不可以應該要去訂定這樣的管理辦法不曉得部長您覺得\n\n12:20.073 --> 12:45.578\n跟委員說明一下就是我們禁止那個狩獵的獵甲是一個非常傳統的獵甲那個是當動物被獵了以後牠腳可能會斷掉的部分那其他的那個套索的部分我們是沒有禁止的這個第一個說明那第二個說明是針對原住民的狩獵那我們也尊重原住民的整個文化的多元性所以我們在狩獵方面也做了三階段的改進最後的一個階段就是讓原住民自主狩獵的管理\n\n12:46.198 --> 13:05.476\n就是由原住民自己定他的狩獵公約用背他的方式。那部長這樣子我明白謝謝您那我剛剛舉這些例子其實我都只是在反映住在山上的這些人的意見那恐怕就是因為我們居住的環境不同生活習慣不同文化關係不同\n\n13:05.976 --> 13:28.832\n我們常常用自己的想法去幫人家想辦法結果呢弄得大家都不開心所以像礦業法去年修法修訂了那個霸王條款之後經濟部就有了第一個就是針對產商申請駁回的行政處分書那所以台南部都很高興可是呢說一句實在話台南部落會這件事情吵了很久\n\n13:29.773 --> 13:44.314\n甚至我也陪他隔壁的地利村去打過高等法院那也勝訴那其實浪費時間可是我要講的是說在地人怎麼會不知道可不可以開發呢所以部落之章同意辦法非常的重要他們知道那個地方\n\n13:44.855 --> 14:12.736\n是水源地是會崩塌的可是為什麼我們的辦法不清不楚讓廠商有這個機會想要去試試看然後引起很多的一個紛爭所以談到這個部分我們就是要談到說現在經濟部做了很好的示範礦業法裡面做了一個諮商同意的指引所以我們有了這樣的一個好的結果因此我們也希望不要每一步法都來做應該統一在原基法下的部落諮商同意辦法我們趕快來把它處理\n\n14:14.477 --> 14:41.669\n所以主委這樣可以嗎?關於諮商統一辦法我們現在正在研擬按照過去遇到的一些問題研擬一個新的辦法出來OK那講到這個部落諮商統一一定要講到部落公法人院長你可能不知道齁部落公法人才會有部落會議主席跟部落會議但是原住民齁已經很多年十幾年都沒有開過村民大會都是開部落會議那這就有趣了部落會議有法律地位\n\n14:42.349 --> 14:56.068\n部落諮商同意辦法具有效力但是沒有所謂的部落公法人也沒有所謂的部落會議主席還是存在村長所以像這樣子一個很奇怪的辦法是不是我們應該要讓他盡速把部落公法人法治化院長\n\n14:57.816 --> 15:24.649\n聽起來是這樣子不過這個委員主委比較清楚那之後再請那個主委再到辦公室那我想今天我其實要表達的就是說人對了事情就對了所以我們原住民人才的自治的培育搖籃所以原住民族學校法很重要那未來的原住民族大學的催生也很重要甚至如何讓現在的原住民專班就成為原住民大學的一個雛形科系那這個部分我想\n\n15:25.369 --> 15:29.334\n之後我會再透過各委員會的質詢再來一一的\n\n","segments":[{"start":15.267,"end":18.492,"text":"主席好,有請院長。有請陳院長備詢。五言五行,恭喜你,連著。"},{"start":28.156,"end":56.002,"text":"謝謝院長我第一次選舉當時您是副總統您是我唯一造市場的嘉賓我第二次選舉您是行政院長也是我造市場的唯一嘉賓所以今天很高興在這邊跟您見面選舉的時候我們常說選對的人走對的路人的確很重要我相信您是對的人"},{"start":56.687,"end":73.035,"text":"因為你的溫暖比任何人更溫暖。你的堅韌我們也已經看到比任何人更堅韌。在這邊跟您說聲謝謝您的承擔付出。那其實我每一次做院會質詢我其實花比較多的時間來論述。"},{"start":75.083,"end":97.522,"text":"為什麼因為我總覺得其實我們臺灣這片國土之下的人民對我們自己本身的原住民族認識還是很少很有限所以我們有時候受到的這些所謂的歧視他不僅僅是對人的歧視甚至對我們的土地"},{"start":98.183,"end":112.892,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":113.851,"end":136.939,"text":"那麼直到蔡總統2016年,原住民終於開始領取禁法補償金。那這個禁法補償金上路以來其實也是且戰且走。那像我這幾年我一直針對禁法就是要落實禁法的精神,不要東扣西扣,像那些崩塌地路面等等。那非常謝謝園民會。"},{"start":138.359,"end":154.565,"text":"在今年度已經正式上路就是會落實禁法精神大家也很高興那像我們的林保署幾十年來有所謂的獎勵輔導造齡過去原住民很辛苦啊造齡20年60萬說一句實在話請工人都不夠"},{"start":158.866,"end":185.159,"text":"可是現在為了要提升國有財的自主利耗而且我們配合未來的趨勢探櫃有這種新殖林6年的這樣的一個規定趨勢所以我們的新造林政策今年也會上路已經改成6年60萬最高那我覺得這都是好事所以院長您記不記得我上個會期就特別提醒了"},{"start":186.019,"end":203.098,"text":"既然探會未來是新殖林6年的有價,既然我們的新造林政策也是提高很多很多倍,那麼如果我們的禁法補償金不提高,恐怕會面臨許多人砍樹造林。"},{"start":204.059,"end":227.967,"text":"那如果我們的法令沒有配合其成同步上路你不要說慢個兩年三年很可能這兩年三年就很多人就砍樹了就照領了所以院長您上次有答應我就是責成原民會把經費做適當的調升所以我其實也很想知道族人也很想知道到底進度如何"},{"start":229.25,"end":240.959,"text":"我先請主委談一下,然後我再來做補充。簡短回答就好。好,跟委員報告,因為原子民族保留地禁法補償條例,我想委員都很清楚,因為"},{"start":242.381,"end":263.951,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":263.991,"end":283.485,"text":"我們會很想聽聽您的態度,或者是主記長的態度啊。像現在以7萬公頃來計,就是3721億。那如果以我上次講的提高到5萬,5、7、35億。我不知道主記長您會支持嗎?您覺得很多嗎?"},{"start":284.858,"end":307.455,"text":"我想第一個如果這個要修法我們當然來修法不過我首先要謝謝委員反映了這個族人的心聲這對我們來說是相當的重要那第二個呢如果這個經費的部分的話我請主席長那個跟那個委員報告一下經費到如果是如果是復活法令大家是認同編在預算裡面我們當然就會"},{"start":308.335,"end":308.835,"text":"國土計劃法"},{"start":329.747,"end":349.568,"text":"其實我們喊了幾十年,終於明年4月要正式上路。原住民很期待很期待,因為終於有人正視我們了。謝謝我們的新政府,因為過去我們詬病的就是為什麼要用平地的那一套土地的規則來去看山坡地的土地規則。"},{"start":350.729,"end":359.879,"text":"明明我們的農牧用地就是長在山坡上可是為什麼要用適用平地的標準明明我們在山上蓋房子我們的建壁率"},{"start":360.933,"end":383.412,"text":"我們的容積率怎麼可以等同於在平地蓋房子所以呢很高興我們的國土計畫法也會配合我們出現的就是原住民族土地使用管制規則可是為什麼我今天要來問因為預告應該是今年的1月可是我就沒有看到我又去查哇原來原民會送我們的"},{"start":384.353,"end":384.513,"text":"﹚國土計畫法﹚"},{"start":407.052,"end":420.687,"text":"是好謝謝哈好那再來哈我要講的就是元寶條例上個會期元寶條例幾乎要通過了其實我們在協商的時候我也是最後一個離開那個會場那我懂"},{"start":421.348,"end":440.294,"text":"大家對這個原保條例有很多的疑慮但是我要借這個機會要來跟院長報告原保條例很重要很重要原住民期待很久第一個至少要把它提升它的法律位階因為我們一旦面對一般的法我們就要退讓"},{"start":441.254,"end":471.254,"text":"﹗"},{"start":471.958,"end":474.492,"text":"我們是不是應該讓永久屋也變成元寶地?"},{"start":476.038,"end":502.511,"text":"另外我們談的像那些我們過去的主居地也許現在在林保署手上在退府會手上我們也在等待這步法讓我們的主居地可以回來變成原保地又或者我們很多具有歷史傳統淵源的使用事實的那過去我們振化邊只能夠用在原鄉地區那這個法通過的之後只要有歷史淵源使用事實我們都可以透過這個法振化邊"},{"start":503.291,"end":512.111,"text":"所以我想要請教的就是說因為屆期不去審那我希望說這個會期那個圓明會會提出來嗎?"},{"start":513.934,"end":516.475,"text":"我進入到立法院的第一年主任有來找我"},{"start":538.482,"end":564.835,"text":"他們就是提到小型露營場可不可以合法化所以我也陪伴他們走了兩年透過質詢開公廳會很多場的協調會那終於也在2022年正式上路可是我要跟院長報告當然我要謝謝交通部願意成為主管機關也要謝謝內政部願意去修改非都土地管制規則第6條的副表1納入容許項目可是這一年半以來喔"},{"start":565.655,"end":565.936,"text":"臨時提案時間。）"},{"start":575.717,"end":603.782,"text":"原本我們立這個法是為了讓2000多個小型露營場非法的讓它合法化而且我們是農地農用、林地林用而且是低限度的利用去讓小型露營場合法化所以在這個過程當中我們發現原來大部分的人都位在19項環境敏感地區結果我們用這個法反而是去幫新設的露營場開門"},{"start":605.452,"end":629.582,"text":"﹗"},{"start":629.602,"end":643.583,"text":"我想這個案子如果是交通部主責的話那我們會請交通部來好好檢討確實這個既然已經有上路了就應該看怎麼樣來讓更多的人合法化"},{"start":645.812,"end":659.532,"text":"主要還是在地幕使用,剛才談到環境敏感地帶,因為它跨了很多部門,尤其在農業部的部分。我想我們已經講到,我們希望把兩千多場違法的和緩,的確現在碰到用地的瓶頸。"},{"start":660.913,"end":681.526,"text":"我們來請光禾召開會來討論。好,謝謝院長,謝謝部長。那又例如那個野保法,也是列入優先法案,但是我看到農業部的法案說明說,未來不論預防農損或原住民狩獵,皆不得使用獸甲。我是不曉得立法的理由,但是我想讓院長知道,完全的禁絕,"},{"start":683.052,"end":702.208,"text":"那其實如果有農損其實會有補償的措施嗎又或者我要講的是說今天住在山上的這些人這些年來比幾十年前的山林更困苦又要跟猴子又要跟山豬又要跟山羌他的農損很嚴重"},{"start":704.15,"end":727.326,"text":"但是我覺得如果完全禁絕那就是他真的有這個生活需求他走入地下化未來呢動輒被罰引起民怨我們的民意代表一定會有很多很多的質詢跟反應那我想這也不是大家所樂見的所以我覺得是不是應該用治理去取代完全的禁絕"},{"start":728.146,"end":738.337,"text":"就是什麽人可以什麽人不可以什麽地方可以什麽地方不可以什麽材質可以什麽材質不可以應該要去訂定這樣的管理辦法不曉得部長您覺得"},{"start":740.073,"end":765.578,"text":"跟委員說明一下就是我們禁止那個狩獵的獵甲是一個非常傳統的獵甲那個是當動物被獵了以後牠腳可能會斷掉的部分那其他的那個套索的部分我們是沒有禁止的這個第一個說明那第二個說明是針對原住民的狩獵那我們也尊重原住民的整個文化的多元性所以我們在狩獵方面也做了三階段的改進最後的一個階段就是讓原住民自主狩獵的管理"},{"start":766.198,"end":785.476,"text":"就是由原住民自己定他的狩獵公約用背他的方式。那部長這樣子我明白謝謝您那我剛剛舉這些例子其實我都只是在反映住在山上的這些人的意見那恐怕就是因為我們居住的環境不同生活習慣不同文化關係不同"},{"start":785.976,"end":808.832,"text":"我們常常用自己的想法去幫人家想辦法結果呢弄得大家都不開心所以像礦業法去年修法修訂了那個霸王條款之後經濟部就有了第一個就是針對產商申請駁回的行政處分書那所以台南部都很高興可是呢說一句實在話台南部落會這件事情吵了很久"},{"start":809.773,"end":824.314,"text":"甚至我也陪他隔壁的地利村去打過高等法院那也勝訴那其實浪費時間可是我要講的是說在地人怎麼會不知道可不可以開發呢所以部落之章同意辦法非常的重要他們知道那個地方"},{"start":824.855,"end":852.736,"text":"是水源地是會崩塌的可是為什麼我們的辦法不清不楚讓廠商有這個機會想要去試試看然後引起很多的一個紛爭所以談到這個部分我們就是要談到說現在經濟部做了很好的示範礦業法裡面做了一個諮商同意的指引所以我們有了這樣的一個好的結果因此我們也希望不要每一步法都來做應該統一在原基法下的部落諮商同意辦法我們趕快來把它處理"},{"start":854.477,"end":881.669,"text":"所以主委這樣可以嗎?關於諮商統一辦法我們現在正在研擬按照過去遇到的一些問題研擬一個新的辦法出來OK那講到這個部落諮商統一一定要講到部落公法人院長你可能不知道齁部落公法人才會有部落會議主席跟部落會議但是原住民齁已經很多年十幾年都沒有開過村民大會都是開部落會議那這就有趣了部落會議有法律地位"},{"start":882.349,"end":896.068,"text":"部落諮商同意辦法具有效力但是沒有所謂的部落公法人也沒有所謂的部落會議主席還是存在村長所以像這樣子一個很奇怪的辦法是不是我們應該要讓他盡速把部落公法人法治化院長"},{"start":897.816,"end":924.649,"text":"聽起來是這樣子不過這個委員主委比較清楚那之後再請那個主委再到辦公室那我想今天我其實要表達的就是說人對了事情就對了所以我們原住民人才的自治的培育搖籃所以原住民族學校法很重要那未來的原住民族大學的催生也很重要甚至如何讓現在的原住民專班就成為原住民大學的一個雛形科系那這個部分我想"},{"start":925.369,"end":929.334,"text":"之後我會再透過各委員會的質詢再來一一的"}]}}}}