{"id":149184,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149184","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd299211bc3f63d1dcfaa0e83a28976539f8ba9b0039caa7a6237fa65589b61d9c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"09:14:16 - 09:20:41","影片長度":"00:06:25","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":385,"end_time":"2024-03-04T09:20:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T09:14:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":172,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（9時14分）請吳主委備詢。"],["主席：請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員澤成：委員，你好！"],["林委員沛祥：吳主委，首先本席先要肯定公共工程委員會在於監督行政院各部會的工程跟協助審定我們的契約，不過本席也要特別在這邊先提醒公共工程委員會，因為物價的浮動還有最近我們看到很多公共工程的棄標案常常發生，所以還請公共工程委員會特別注意各大公共工程的進度，甚至以標案來講的話，本席認為以最有利標的精神來促進各公共工程的進度在目前這個世代是比較合理的作法。再來，既然公共工程委員會有協助審定契約的功能，那本席就想請教一下OT跟ROT案有什麼不同？"],["吳主任委員澤成：就差前面那一個字。"],["林委員沛祥：就是R嘛！R就是Renovate還是Rehabilitate，就是有翻新的作用。"],["吳主任委員澤成：有整修的那一個。"],["林委員沛祥：那我也想請教主委，公告OT合約招標後改成ROT，這樣合法嗎？"],["吳主任委員澤成：它只要經過契約的變更程序。"],["林委員沛祥：這個是要有一個法定程序才能做變更，對不對？"],["吳主任委員澤成：它要有一個程序去做變更。"],["林委員沛祥：那有沒有先例就是經過法定程序之後合理變更的呢？"],["吳主任委員澤成：要看它的實際需求。"],["林委員沛祥：以主委的經驗、以主委的專業來判斷的話，OT案改成ROT都是要經過一定的法定程序，不能說改就改，對吧？"],["吳主任委員澤成：要看個案的需求，如果需要變更，就要按照程序辦理變更。"],["林委員沛祥：要有個程序在嘛！"],["吳主任委員澤成：對。"],["林委員沛祥：OK。不好意思，因為我是基隆來的立法委員，那基隆東岸商場這個案子滿奇特的，本來簽的是OT案，可是實質上做的卻是ROT，而且並沒有經過任何所謂的法定程序，只是片面的由基隆市的前任市長在他主持的市政會議裡面特地要求協力廠商去增建，說這是ROT案不過附有OT的精神，所以我想請教主委這件事情的原委。"],["吳主任委員澤成：跟委員說明一下，促參的業務現在已經是屬於財政部的業務主管，所以對促參這一塊現在我們工程會沒有在接觸。"],["林委員沛祥：不過照以前的慣例來講，還是要經過一個法定的程序才能確認說這個OT案，雖然ROT可能對於整個城市也是有幫助的，但是不管怎麼樣，以公務人員四大法則來講，以合法、合理、必要、比例原則來講的話，其合法性是有待爭議的，對吧？"],["吳主任委員澤成：我的意思是說，如果從工程的觀念來看，今天契約已經訂定，如果在契約的履行過程當中有需要去改變契約的內容跟方式的話，就透過變更程序來辦理。"],["林委員沛祥：那我們在這邊看到有一個奇特的點，在NET這個案子裡面，基隆市政府是屋主，中間有一個房東是大日開發，然後我們現在另外一個受害者也就是所謂的NET主富服裝公司，基本上是屋主、房東跟房客的關係，在這邊就有一個疑點，就是基隆市政府是跟大日開發也就是它的房東簽了5加3年的合約，但是大日公司拿到這5加3年之後，就直接跟NET主婦商場簽訂10年的租約，這是讓人家覺得很奇特的一點。我也想請問，像這樣的合約，你們公共工程委員會認為合理嗎？"],["吳主任委員澤成：就公共工程這邊採購的契約來講，如果甲乙雙方的契約，乙方的這個廠商如果有分包廠商的話，依約也是可以的，但是它也要報備。"],["林委員沛祥：所以可能在報備上面不見得完全……"],["吳主任委員澤成：這個就要看個案的狀況。"],["林委員沛祥：所以嚴格講起來，在這個案子裡面NET跟基隆市政府沒有直接的關係，因為它是大日開發的協力廠商。"],["吳主任委員澤成：是沒有，但是它如果分包有報備的話，它也連帶有一定的權利義務關係。"],["林委員沛祥：我為什麼會把這個案子特地拿出來講的原因是說，像這樣的案子我們如果不把它政治化的話，這在公共工程的合約上面會變成未來在全國的一個範例、一個先例，如果今天我們可以看到一個房客、一個私人企業體可以從中間，經過房東、經過他們的開發商、一個合約開發商，就可以擅自認定政府的土地、政府的產權是屬於他們私人的，這會開一個先例，在我們所在、我們所知道的行政體系裡面，也就是說，如果未來這個先例一開，我們會看到任何自稱是優良廠商，直接在我們國有土地上隨便興建一個物品，隨便興建一個建物之後就自行宣稱產權是屬於他們的，所以為什麼今天對公共工程委員會我要第一個發言請教主委的原因在這裡，謝謝主委的回答。"],["吳主任委員澤成：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林沛祥委員質詢。接下來請黃健豪委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","林沛祥","黃健豪","廖先翔","徐富癸","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","邱若華","游顥","蔡其昌","許智傑","陳俊宇","邱志偉"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130901_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"149184","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149184","tool":"pyannote","id":"149184-pyannote"},"job_id":"K8XvWyiTzZVc9HE3","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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0.999}]}, {\"start\": 255.802, \"end\": 281.936, \"text\": \"他是跟大日開發也就是他的房東簽了5加3年的合約但是大日公司拿到這5加3年之後就直接跟Net跟主婦商場簽訂10年的租約這是讓人家覺得很奇特的一點那我也想請問說像這樣的合約在公共工程委員會上面你們認為合理嗎?就公共工程這邊採購的企業來講\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 255.802, \"end\": 256.062, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 256.062, \"end\": 256.322, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 256.322, \"end\": 256.983, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 256.983, \"end\": 257.223, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"日\", \"start\": 257.223, \"end\": 257.663, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 257.663, \"end\": 258.103, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 258.103, \"end\": 258.183, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 258.183, \"end\": 258.303, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 258.303, \"end\": 258.423, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 258.423, \"end\": 258.583, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"房\", 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\"end\": 275.572, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 275.572, \"end\": 275.712, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"共\", \"start\": 275.712, \"end\": 275.873, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 275.873, \"end\": 276.033, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 276.033, \"end\": 276.213, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 276.213, \"end\": 276.893, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 276.893, \"end\": 277.073, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 277.073, \"end\": 277.734, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 277.734, \"end\": 278.574, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 278.574, \"end\": 278.734, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 278.734, \"end\": 280.395, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 280.395, \"end\": 280.675, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 280.675, \"end\": 280.875, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"共\", \"start\": 280.875, \"end\": 281.115, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 281.115, \"end\": 281.435, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 281.435, \"end\": 281.656, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"採\"}, {\"word\": \"購\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 281.656, \"end\": 281.916, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"企\", \"start\": 281.916, \"end\": 281.936, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}]}, {\"start\": 284.642, \"end\": 312.215, \"text\": \"那麼如果這一個假以雙方以方的契約的這個以方的這個廠商他如果有分包廠商的話那麼一約也是可以的但是他也要報備要報備嗎所以可能報備上面這個就是不見得完全這個就要看他個案的就是個案的狀況應該講起來就是在這個案子裡面NET跟基隆市政府沒有直接關係因為他是大熱開發的協力廠商\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 284.642, \"end\": 285.082, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 285.082, \"end\": 285.362, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 285.362, \"end\": 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\"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 380.583, \"end\": 380.603, \"score\": 0.102}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:08,060\n請吳主委備詢。\n\n2\n00:00:18,772 --> 00:00:46,313\n吳主委首先本席先要肯定我們公共工程委員會在於監督行政院各部會的工程跟協定審定我們的契約不過本席也要特別在這邊先提醒公共工程委員會因為物價的浮動還有最近我們近年來常常看到很多公共工程的公共工程的棄標案常常發生所以還請公共工程委員會特別注意各大公共工程的進度\n\n3\n00:00:46,773 --> 00:01:11,619\n甚至說有關標案來講的話本席是認為說以這個最有立標精神來促進各個公共工程的進度是我認為比較在這個目前這個世代是比較合理的做法再來既然說我們公共工程委員會有協助審定契約的功能那本席就想請教一下請問OT跟ROT案有什麼不同\n\n4\n00:01:14,966 --> 00:01:16,127\n他主要經過契約的變更程序\n\n5\n00:01:42,493 --> 00:02:06,888\n這是要有一個法定程序才能做變更吧?他有一個程序去做變更那有沒有真相的先例就是經過法定程序之後合理變更的呢?要看他的實際需求那所以說以主委的經驗以主委的專業來判斷的話OT案改成ROT都是要經過一定的法定程序不能說改就改對吧?\n\n6\n00:02:08,278 --> 00:02:22,373\n要看他的個案的需求,如果需要變更,他要按照程序辦理變更。要有個程序在嗎?對。不好意思,那就請問,因為我是基隆來的立法委員,那基隆的東岸商場這個\n\n7\n00:02:23,814 --> 00:02:23,934\n那我想請請說\n\n8\n00:02:54,066 --> 00:03:20,739\n跟委員說明一下就是畜餐的業務那麼現在已經是在屬於財政部的業務主管所以畜餐這一塊現在我們工程會沒有在這個接觸不過以以前的慣例來講還是要經過一個法定的程序才能確認說這個OT案雖然是ROT可能對於整個城市也是有幫助的但是不管怎麼樣以公務人員四大法則來講合法、合理\n\n9\n00:03:21,999 --> 00:03:44,555\n合法、合理、必要、比例原則來講的話合法性這是有待爭議的對吧主委我的意思是說如果從工程的觀念來看今天7月已經訂定如果7月的旅行過程當中有需要去改變7月的內容跟方式的話他就透過變更程序來辦理這樣\n\n10\n00:03:46,613 --> 00:04:15,302\n好那比較奇特的就是說我們在這邊看到有一個奇特的點就是說基隆市政府跟他的如果在NET的案子裡面基隆市政府是屋主中間有個房東叫做大日開發然後我們現在另外一個受害者也就是所謂的NET主婦服裝公司基本上是屋主房東跟房客的關係那這邊我們就有一個疑點就是說基隆市政府\n\n11\n00:04:15,802 --> 00:04:41,936\n他是跟大日開發也就是他的房東簽了5加3年的合約但是大日公司拿到這5加3年之後就直接跟Net跟主婦商場簽訂10年的租約這是讓人家覺得很奇特的一點那我也想請問說像這樣的合約在公共工程委員會上面你們認為合理嗎?就公共工程這邊採購的企業來講\n\n12\n00:04:44,642 --> 00:05:12,215\n那麼如果這一個假以雙方以方的契約的這個以方的這個廠商他如果有分包廠商的話那麼一約也是可以的但是他也要報備要報備嗎所以可能報備上面這個就是不見得完全這個就要看他個案的就是個案的狀況應該講起來就是在這個案子裡面NET跟基隆市政府沒有直接關係因為他是大熱開發的協力廠商\n\n13\n00:05:13,812 --> 00:05:32,118\n是沒有但是他如果分包有報備的話他也連帶有他的權利義務關係我為什麼會把這個案子特地拿出來講的原因是說像這樣的案子我們以如果不把它政治化的話這是一個在公共工程在合約上面會變成是未來在\n\n14\n00:05:32,938 --> 00:05:44,749\n全國的一個範例一個先例如果今天我們可以看到說一個房客可以約一個房客一個私人企業體可以從中間經過房東經過他們的開發商一個合約開發商就可以暫時認定說\n\n15\n00:05:50,834 --> 00:06:11,949\n政府的土地政府的產權是屬於他們私人的那這會開一個先例在我們所在我們所知道的行政體系裡面也就是說如果未來這個先例一開我們會看到任何的自身自稱是悠揚廠商直接在我們國有土地上隨便新建一個一個物品新建一個建物之後就自行宣稱產權\n\n16\n00:06:13,630 --> 00:06:20,603\n是屬於他們的所以為什麼今天在公共工程委員會我要第一個發言請教主委的原因在這裡謝謝主委的回答\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7920\t8060\t請吳主委備詢。\n18772\t46313\t吳主委首先本席先要肯定我們公共工程委員會在於監督行政院各部會的工程跟協定審定我們的契約不過本席也要特別在這邊先提醒公共工程委員會因為物價的浮動還有最近我們近年來常常看到很多公共工程的公共工程的棄標案常常發生所以還請公共工程委員會特別注意各大公共工程的進度\n46773\t71619\t甚至說有關標案來講的話本席是認為說以這個最有立標精神來促進各個公共工程的進度是我認為比較在這個目前這個世代是比較合理的做法再來既然說我們公共工程委員會有協助審定契約的功能那本席就想請教一下請問OT跟ROT案有什麼不同\n74966\t76127\t他主要經過契約的變更程序\n102493\t126888\t這是要有一個法定程序才能做變更吧?他有一個程序去做變更那有沒有真相的先例就是經過法定程序之後合理變更的呢?要看他的實際需求那所以說以主委的經驗以主委的專業來判斷的話OT案改成ROT都是要經過一定的法定程序不能說改就改對吧?\n128278\t142373\t要看他的個案的需求,如果需要變更,他要按照程序辦理變更。要有個程序在嗎?對。不好意思,那就請問,因為我是基隆來的立法委員,那基隆的東岸商場這個\n143814\t143934\t那我想請 請說\n174066\t200739\t跟委員說明一下就是畜餐的業務那麼現在已經是在屬於財政部的業務主管所以畜餐這一塊現在我們工程會沒有在這個接觸不過以以前的慣例來講還是要經過一個法定的程序才能確認說這個OT案雖然是ROT可能對於整個城市也是有幫助的但是不管怎麼樣以公務人員四大法則來講合法、合理\n201999\t224555\t合法、合理、必要、比例原則來講的話合法性這是有待爭議的對吧 主委我的意思是說如果從工程的觀念來看今天7月已經訂定如果7月的旅行過程當中有需要去改變7月的內容跟方式的話他就透過變更程序來辦理這樣\n226613\t255302\t好那比較奇特的就是說我們在這邊看到有一個奇特的點就是說基隆市政府跟他的如果在NET的案子裡面基隆市政府是屋主中間有個房東叫做大日開發然後我們現在另外一個受害者也就是所謂的NET主婦服裝公司基本上是屋主房東跟房客的關係那這邊我們就有一個疑點就是說基隆市政府\n255802\t281936\t他是跟大日開發也就是他的房東簽了5加3年的合約但是大日公司拿到這5加3年之後就直接跟Net跟主婦商場簽訂10年的租約這是讓人家覺得很奇特的一點那我也想請問說像這樣的合約在公共工程委員會上面你們認為合理嗎?就公共工程這邊採購的企業來講\n284642\t312215\t那麼如果這一個假以雙方以方的契約的這個以方的這個廠商他如果有分包廠商的話那麼一約也是可以的但是他也要報備要報備嗎所以可能報備上面這個就是不見得完全這個就要看他個案的就是個案的狀況應該講起來就是在這個案子裡面NET跟基隆市政府沒有直接關係因為他是大熱開發的協力廠商\n313812\t332118\t是沒有但是他如果分包有報備的話他也連帶有他的權利義務關係我為什麼會把這個案子特地拿出來講的原因是說像這樣的案子我們以如果不把它政治化的話這是一個在公共工程在合約上面會變成是未來在\n332938\t344749\t全國的一個範例一個先例如果今天我們可以看到說一個房客可以約一個房客一個私人企業體可以從中間經過房東經過他們的開發商一個合約開發商就可以暫時認定說\n350834\t371949\t政府的土地政府的產權是屬於他們私人的那這會開一個先例在我們所在我們所知道的行政體系裡面也就是說如果未來這個先例一開我們會看到任何的自身自稱是悠揚廠商直接在我們國有土地上隨便新建一個一個物品新建一個建物之後就自行宣稱產權\n373630\t380603\t是屬於他們的所以為什麼今天在公共工程委員會我要第一個發言請教主委的原因在這裡謝謝主委的回答\n","txt":"請吳主委備詢。\n吳主委首先本席先要肯定我們公共工程委員會在於監督行政院各部會的工程跟協定審定我們的契約不過本席也要特別在這邊先提醒公共工程委員會因為物價的浮動還有最近我們近年來常常看到很多公共工程的公共工程的棄標案常常發生所以還請公共工程委員會特別注意各大公共工程的進度\n甚至說有關標案來講的話本席是認為說以這個最有立標精神來促進各個公共工程的進度是我認為比較在這個目前這個世代是比較合理的做法再來既然說我們公共工程委員會有協助審定契約的功能那本席就想請教一下請問OT跟ROT案有什麼不同\n他主要經過契約的變更程序\n這是要有一個法定程序才能做變更吧?他有一個程序去做變更那有沒有真相的先例就是經過法定程序之後合理變更的呢?要看他的實際需求那所以說以主委的經驗以主委的專業來判斷的話OT案改成ROT都是要經過一定的法定程序不能說改就改對吧?\n要看他的個案的需求,如果需要變更,他要按照程序辦理變更。要有個程序在嗎?對。不好意思,那就請問,因為我是基隆來的立法委員,那基隆的東岸商場這個\n那我想請 請說\n跟委員說明一下就是畜餐的業務那麼現在已經是在屬於財政部的業務主管所以畜餐這一塊現在我們工程會沒有在這個接觸不過以以前的慣例來講還是要經過一個法定的程序才能確認說這個OT案雖然是ROT可能對於整個城市也是有幫助的但是不管怎麼樣以公務人員四大法則來講合法、合理\n合法、合理、必要、比例原則來講的話合法性這是有待爭議的對吧 主委我的意思是說如果從工程的觀念來看今天7月已經訂定如果7月的旅行過程當中有需要去改變7月的內容跟方式的話他就透過變更程序來辦理這樣\n好那比較奇特的就是說我們在這邊看到有一個奇特的點就是說基隆市政府跟他的如果在NET的案子裡面基隆市政府是屋主中間有個房東叫做大日開發然後我們現在另外一個受害者也就是所謂的NET主婦服裝公司基本上是屋主房東跟房客的關係那這邊我們就有一個疑點就是說基隆市政府\n他是跟大日開發也就是他的房東簽了5加3年的合約但是大日公司拿到這5加3年之後就直接跟Net跟主婦商場簽訂10年的租約這是讓人家覺得很奇特的一點那我也想請問說像這樣的合約在公共工程委員會上面你們認為合理嗎?就公共工程這邊採購的企業來講\n那麼如果這一個假以雙方以方的契約的這個以方的這個廠商他如果有分包廠商的話那麼一約也是可以的但是他也要報備要報備嗎所以可能報備上面這個就是不見得完全這個就要看他個案的就是個案的狀況應該講起來就是在這個案子裡面NET跟基隆市政府沒有直接關係因為他是大熱開發的協力廠商\n是沒有但是他如果分包有報備的話他也連帶有他的權利義務關係我為什麼會把這個案子特地拿出來講的原因是說像這樣的案子我們以如果不把它政治化的話這是一個在公共工程在合約上面會變成是未來在\n全國的一個範例一個先例如果今天我們可以看到說一個房客可以約一個房客一個私人企業體可以從中間經過房東經過他們的開發商一個合約開發商就可以暫時認定說\n政府的土地政府的產權是屬於他們私人的那這會開一個先例在我們所在我們所知道的行政體系裡面也就是說如果未來這個先例一開我們會看到任何的自身自稱是悠揚廠商直接在我們國有土地上隨便新建一個一個物品新建一個建物之後就自行宣稱產權\n是屬於他們的所以為什麼今天在公共工程委員會我要第一個發言請教主委的原因在這裡謝謝主委的回答\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.920 --> 00:08.060\n請吳主委備詢。\n\n00:18.772 --> 00:46.313\n吳主委首先本席先要肯定我們公共工程委員會在於監督行政院各部會的工程跟協定審定我們的契約不過本席也要特別在這邊先提醒公共工程委員會因為物價的浮動還有最近我們近年來常常看到很多公共工程的公共工程的棄標案常常發生所以還請公共工程委員會特別注意各大公共工程的進度\n\n00:46.773 --> 01:11.619\n甚至說有關標案來講的話本席是認為說以這個最有立標精神來促進各個公共工程的進度是我認為比較在這個目前這個世代是比較合理的做法再來既然說我們公共工程委員會有協助審定契約的功能那本席就想請教一下請問OT跟ROT案有什麼不同\n\n01:14.966 --> 01:16.127\n他主要經過契約的變更程序\n\n01:42.493 --> 02:06.888\n這是要有一個法定程序才能做變更吧?他有一個程序去做變更那有沒有真相的先例就是經過法定程序之後合理變更的呢?要看他的實際需求那所以說以主委的經驗以主委的專業來判斷的話OT案改成ROT都是要經過一定的法定程序不能說改就改對吧?\n\n02:08.278 --> 02:22.373\n要看他的個案的需求,如果需要變更,他要按照程序辦理變更。要有個程序在嗎?對。不好意思,那就請問,因為我是基隆來的立法委員,那基隆的東岸商場這個\n\n02:23.814 --> 02:23.934\n那我想請請說\n\n02:54.066 --> 03:20.739\n跟委員說明一下就是畜餐的業務那麼現在已經是在屬於財政部的業務主管所以畜餐這一塊現在我們工程會沒有在這個接觸不過以以前的慣例來講還是要經過一個法定的程序才能確認說這個OT案雖然是ROT可能對於整個城市也是有幫助的但是不管怎麼樣以公務人員四大法則來講合法、合理\n\n03:21.999 --> 03:44.555\n合法、合理、必要、比例原則來講的話合法性這是有待爭議的對吧主委我的意思是說如果從工程的觀念來看今天7月已經訂定如果7月的旅行過程當中有需要去改變7月的內容跟方式的話他就透過變更程序來辦理這樣\n\n03:46.613 --> 04:15.302\n好那比較奇特的就是說我們在這邊看到有一個奇特的點就是說基隆市政府跟他的如果在NET的案子裡面基隆市政府是屋主中間有個房東叫做大日開發然後我們現在另外一個受害者也就是所謂的NET主婦服裝公司基本上是屋主房東跟房客的關係那這邊我們就有一個疑點就是說基隆市政府\n\n04:15.802 --> 04:41.936\n他是跟大日開發也就是他的房東簽了5加3年的合約但是大日公司拿到這5加3年之後就直接跟Net跟主婦商場簽訂10年的租約這是讓人家覺得很奇特的一點那我也想請問說像這樣的合約在公共工程委員會上面你們認為合理嗎?就公共工程這邊採購的企業來講\n\n04:44.642 --> 05:12.215\n那麼如果這一個假以雙方以方的契約的這個以方的這個廠商他如果有分包廠商的話那麼一約也是可以的但是他也要報備要報備嗎所以可能報備上面這個就是不見得完全這個就要看他個案的就是個案的狀況應該講起來就是在這個案子裡面NET跟基隆市政府沒有直接關係因為他是大熱開發的協力廠商\n\n05:13.812 --> 05:32.118\n是沒有但是他如果分包有報備的話他也連帶有他的權利義務關係我為什麼會把這個案子特地拿出來講的原因是說像這樣的案子我們以如果不把它政治化的話這是一個在公共工程在合約上面會變成是未來在\n\n05:32.938 --> 05:44.749\n全國的一個範例一個先例如果今天我們可以看到說一個房客可以約一個房客一個私人企業體可以從中間經過房東經過他們的開發商一個合約開發商就可以暫時認定說\n\n05:50.834 --> 06:11.949\n政府的土地政府的產權是屬於他們私人的那這會開一個先例在我們所在我們所知道的行政體系裡面也就是說如果未來這個先例一開我們會看到任何的自身自稱是悠揚廠商直接在我們國有土地上隨便新建一個一個物品新建一個建物之後就自行宣稱產權\n\n06:13.630 --> 06:20.603\n是屬於他們的所以為什麼今天在公共工程委員會我要第一個發言請教主委的原因在這裡謝謝主委的回答\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.92,"end":8.06,"text":"請吳主委備詢。"},{"start":18.772,"end":46.313,"text":"吳主委首先本席先要肯定我們公共工程委員會在於監督行政院各部會的工程跟協定審定我們的契約不過本席也要特別在這邊先提醒公共工程委員會因為物價的浮動還有最近我們近年來常常看到很多公共工程的公共工程的棄標案常常發生所以還請公共工程委員會特別注意各大公共工程的進度"},{"start":46.773,"end":71.619,"text":"甚至說有關標案來講的話本席是認為說以這個最有立標精神來促進各個公共工程的進度是我認為比較在這個目前這個世代是比較合理的做法再來既然說我們公共工程委員會有協助審定契約的功能那本席就想請教一下請問OT跟ROT案有什麼不同"},{"start":74.966,"end":76.127,"text":"他主要經過契約的變更程序"},{"start":102.493,"end":126.888,"text":"這是要有一個法定程序才能做變更吧?他有一個程序去做變更那有沒有真相的先例就是經過法定程序之後合理變更的呢?要看他的實際需求那所以說以主委的經驗以主委的專業來判斷的話OT案改成ROT都是要經過一定的法定程序不能說改就改對吧?"},{"start":128.278,"end":142.373,"text":"要看他的個案的需求,如果需要變更,他要按照程序辦理變更。要有個程序在嗎?對。不好意思,那就請問,因為我是基隆來的立法委員,那基隆的東岸商場這個"},{"start":143.814,"end":143.934,"text":"那我想請 請說"},{"start":174.066,"end":200.739,"text":"跟委員說明一下就是畜餐的業務那麼現在已經是在屬於財政部的業務主管所以畜餐這一塊現在我們工程會沒有在這個接觸不過以以前的慣例來講還是要經過一個法定的程序才能確認說這個OT案雖然是ROT可能對於整個城市也是有幫助的但是不管怎麼樣以公務人員四大法則來講合法、合理"},{"start":201.999,"end":224.555,"text":"合法、合理、必要、比例原則來講的話合法性這是有待爭議的對吧 主委我的意思是說如果從工程的觀念來看今天7月已經訂定如果7月的旅行過程當中有需要去改變7月的內容跟方式的話他就透過變更程序來辦理這樣"},{"start":226.613,"end":255.302,"text":"好那比較奇特的就是說我們在這邊看到有一個奇特的點就是說基隆市政府跟他的如果在NET的案子裡面基隆市政府是屋主中間有個房東叫做大日開發然後我們現在另外一個受害者也就是所謂的NET主婦服裝公司基本上是屋主房東跟房客的關係那這邊我們就有一個疑點就是說基隆市政府"},{"start":255.802,"end":281.936,"text":"他是跟大日開發也就是他的房東簽了5加3年的合約但是大日公司拿到這5加3年之後就直接跟Net跟主婦商場簽訂10年的租約這是讓人家覺得很奇特的一點那我也想請問說像這樣的合約在公共工程委員會上面你們認為合理嗎?就公共工程這邊採購的企業來講"},{"start":284.642,"end":312.215,"text":"那麼如果這一個假以雙方以方的契約的這個以方的這個廠商他如果有分包廠商的話那麼一約也是可以的但是他也要報備要報備嗎所以可能報備上面這個就是不見得完全這個就要看他個案的就是個案的狀況應該講起來就是在這個案子裡面NET跟基隆市政府沒有直接關係因為他是大熱開發的協力廠商"},{"start":313.812,"end":332.118,"text":"是沒有但是他如果分包有報備的話他也連帶有他的權利義務關係我為什麼會把這個案子特地拿出來講的原因是說像這樣的案子我們以如果不把它政治化的話這是一個在公共工程在合約上面會變成是未來在"},{"start":332.938,"end":344.749,"text":"全國的一個範例一個先例如果今天我們可以看到說一個房客可以約一個房客一個私人企業體可以從中間經過房東經過他們的開發商一個合約開發商就可以暫時認定說"},{"start":350.834,"end":371.949,"text":"政府的土地政府的產權是屬於他們私人的那這會開一個先例在我們所在我們所知道的行政體系裡面也就是說如果未來這個先例一開我們會看到任何的自身自稱是悠揚廠商直接在我們國有土地上隨便新建一個一個物品新建一個建物之後就自行宣稱產權"},{"start":373.63,"end":380.603,"text":"是屬於他們的所以為什麼今天在公共工程委員會我要第一個發言請教主委的原因在這裡謝謝主委的回答"}]}}}}