{"id":149212,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149212","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd06001484b387bd0ebaff13691fd5102bf8ba9b0039caa7a6ffdbef6d71e002e65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"10:29:02 - 10:42:13","影片長度":"00:13:11","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":791,"end_time":"2024-03-04T10:42:13+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T10:29:02+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":441,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（10時29分）謝謝召委。有請部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["范委員雲：部長好。我今天主要要聚焦的就是特教的生師衝突，我想部長非常瞭解，這是您任內一個很大的成果，去年我們把睽違14年沒有修的特教法修完了，也讓它上路了，我們不分黨派都支持要給特教生跟師更多的資源、更多的支持。可是我想部長您也有看到，剛剛也有委員詢問過，就是這兩天在很多的群組頻傳的一個影片，很多民眾看到的是老師的安全問題，就是學生打老師，但是有經驗的老師應該就會看到這是一個特教生師衝突，那也是我們的相關政策，在普特融合下，很可能是老師沒有得到足夠的支持，我不知道部長同不同意這個分析？就是說老師很可能沒有得到足夠的支持，特別是科目老師，如果不是特教老師的話，他面臨到的可能是情緒障礙的特教生，媒體報導是說甚至可能會有暴力的傾向，我們並不知道，因為這是媒體的報導，所以如何避免這樣的狀況？剛剛有委員要求您跟各縣市政府教育局儘快的開會，我想不管是儘快的開會或者是教育部針對媒體報導的這個臺北市某高中的案例做一個仔細的瞭解分析，我想您必須要儘快給我們教育及文化委員會一個調查報告，包含檢討如何再避免這樣的悲劇發生，因為我覺得這是雙輸，我們要讓所有現場的老師安心，也要讓特教生跟他的家長安心，部長是不是可以做到呢？"],["潘部長文忠：是，對於這個個案的部分，在第一時間我們也請臺北市教育局、校方這邊就這個事項再進一步的瞭解。當然委員剛才提到後續瞭解的這些相關的提醒跟因應，我們會做一些後續的會商跟措施，這個到時候再提供給委員參考。對於這樣的……"],["范委員雲：好，可不可以給我們教文委員會一個調查報告，包含未來如何改善、避免……"],["潘部長文忠：可以。"],["范委員雲：那2個月的時間夠嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：可以。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝部長。","另外就是剛剛陳培瑜委員也有問到的，就是我跟陳培瑜委員有開了一個記者會，針對的是另外一個特教生師衝突，剛剛是高中的普特融合，現在是宜蘭的某國小特教班，特教班是專門給特教生的，居然發生嚴重的體罰案。我這邊有整理出來，因為這個都是有驗傷的，還有相關的影像，包含把特教生的嘴巴撐開強迫餵食、用束帶把學生雙手捆綁於椅子，還有剛剛陳培瑜委員的影片我們也有看到，用拉筋的方式教學童數1到50，這個學童是自閉症跟智能障礙這一類的，還有拗折學童手指、用腳踹學童，這有驗傷單，還有罰學童雙腳撐在椅子上雙手撐地15分鐘，我們現在講的是附幼，是幼稚園耶。還有說因為要訓練學童穿衣，在冷氣房把學童的衣服、上衣脫掉，讓學童被嚇到尿褲子，我不知道部長有沒有看到這個部分。我現在給部長看個十幾秒媒體報導的影片，你看這個影像所呈現的，剛剛那個老師的樣子你就看到了，他現在是在踢小孩，這個部分是有被錄到的。當家長因為有助理員通知他而騎腳踏車趕到現場的時候，教室還被窗簾完全遮住，家長在外頭聽到小孩在哭叫、尖叫。家長很勇敢，他變音、戴口罩出席我們的記者會，因為我想你應該知道，特教生的家長對於要挑戰學校老師……","這個事情我們所看到的是，剛剛陳培瑜委員有講過，記者會之後，宜蘭縣政府教育局把原本情節不重大的調查結果改成情節重大，可是懲處都是停聘1年，我想問部長，你覺得你剛剛看到這個東西，就是現在我們看到的資訊跟影像，陳培瑜委員提出的影像跟我提出的影像，這個是不是情節重大？還是這是情節不重大？如果您是調查委員的話。"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，當然這個相關的整體事項可能要直接看影片，那個影片可以看得出來，如果都是當事老師、當事學生，絕對是不妥當的，這個……"],["范委員雲：那個情節呢？如果您是調查委員，您認為這樣是重大還是不重大？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，如果就宜蘭縣目前的調查，他們在最後認定的會議對於這個是以情節重大在做認定啦，目前我掌握到……"],["范委員雲：對，他們後來改口改成情節重大。"],["潘部長文忠：應該是說，以我所得到的資訊，他們的意思是說，原來的調查過程中有委員認為這個不見得要把它歸類到情節重大，但是到認定委員會之後，最後拍板下來的是以情節重大來論處……"],["范委員雲：部長，因為時間有限，不好意思。您認為這樣一位老師，就是剛剛影片看到踢小孩的老師，還有我剛剛講的這麼多的情節，他還適合擔任特教生的老師嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，如果已經涉及到情節重大，而且又是以這樣的方式去體罰，甚至用比較不好的詞叫做虐待學生，這樣確實是不適合的人員。"],["范委員雲：好，連部長都認為不適合了，可是呢，宜蘭縣教育局的決定已經在後來改口為情節重大，原本調查委員說不重大，但是懲處是一樣的，1年後這個人就可以再當老師，而且因為他本身是三招的，完全沒有特教資格，沒有老師資格，這樣的人來當特教班的老師，因為他本來就沒有這個資格，所以1年之後，他去任何一個幼稚園，其實是可以當老師的。所以我覺得這個除了個案之外，也反映出我們的制度有滿大的問題，如果連潘部長都認同這樣的人不適合當老師的話，請你看一下我們現在的相關法制，第一個就是對調查的結果，特教生的家長，特教生可能表達能力沒有辦法那麼清楚，但家長對於這個調查結果是無法救濟的，調查結果不只拿不到報告，然後無法救濟，對懲處結果也無法救濟。也就是說，家長如果沒有辦法找到立委開記者會的話，可能剛剛那個案子就是情節不重大了，而且不是每個家長都願意站出來，願意跟立委開記者會喔。","我們來看一下別的制度，其實受害學生跟家長的待遇是不同的，如果是性平事件，目前是最嚴謹的，部長非常瞭解喔，我們已經修法，在「#MeToo」之後，受害當事人有當事人地位，可以直接取得調查報告，對調查結果可以提起救濟，對加害人的懲處結果也可以提起救濟。如果是霸凌事件的話，只有能夠取得調查報告及對調查結果提起救濟，但是對於懲處結果就沒有辦法提起救濟。至於幼照法，很遺憾的，雖然我們也修過了幼照法，可是這三個部分都還是沒有，這個特教生事件就讓我們看到其實幼照法在這個方面的制度也讓家長跟特教生處於不利的狀況。這樣的生師衝突，我們前面看到的是高中生，是在普特融合的情況，現在看到的是特教班，是本來我們要給更多資源的，結果現場卻發生這樣的情形。這個部分的制度問題，細節我就不講了，我覺得教育部應該要去研議啦。","我想問的事情是，第一個，剛剛教育部已經承諾了，針對臺北市這個高中特教生、普特融合的個案怎麼去檢討如何避免，能不能夠提供教師足夠的支持？第二個，我想請潘部長也承諾應該要監督宜蘭縣政府，連你剛剛都不認同他們的懲處結果，為什麼會對特幼班有這樣的狀況，然後變來變去的調查結果，結果還認為1年後這個老師還是適任教師。所以宜蘭縣政府對特幼班事件的調查跟認定是不是有任何的違失，沒有遵守你們相關規定的部分，潘部長可以先針對宜蘭這個個案也去做調查嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：好，謝謝委員，對宜蘭縣政府的這個部分，剛才在過程中有稍微說明，但教育部在2月29日，因為也有提到這個可能不只這一位孩子，還可能涉及園內的其他人，所以……"],["范委員雲：我們知道有2位孩子。"],["潘部長文忠：所以我們已經要求宜蘭縣教育處要重行再做審議，這個審議當然就會處理到後續結果的處置。這部分在制度上我也一併跟委員報告，確實現在認定委員會已經把它以情節重大來做處理，但是在衡酌之間，依我們的母法，本來不管停聘年度，它有一個區間，罰鍰也有個區間，目前看起來宜蘭縣政府是以情節重大的最低限在衡酌這件事，所以我們請他們就涉及的其他個案一併再做審議。在這個部分我也跟委員報告，在制度上，國教署這邊也正在積極建立有關未來在審酌基準上面也能夠讓縣市有所依循，這樣也避免真的已經到這種情況，但是它是不合這樣的規準，我想在制度上從中央來做這個基準是有它的必要性。"],["范委員雲：好，另外一個相關的主題，關於我們之前修法要求教育部有一個不適任教育的系統，可是我們發現在他被停聘期間是可以查到他被停聘，可是一旦停聘跟公告期間過了，系統上就再也查不出這個老師有情節重大的相關霸凌案，所以再聘他的別的學校都不會知道，這個制度是不是有疏漏，影響到學生跟家長的權益跟憂心？請部長也一併理解，好不好？","最後，今天因為時間有限，只剩27秒，剛剛講的是宜蘭縣的個案，針對我講的幼兒園師對生這種嚴重的事件，已經是違法了，我們的這個新制上路到現在，是不是可以整體檢視執行的情況，包含案件數、調查結果、終局處理，因為我想不是只有宜蘭縣，可能別的縣市也都會有。還有行為人提出救濟的相關數據，我們瞭解實情之後，再針對目前的法規，包含被害人沒有當事人地位，幼教完全是這樣的話，是不是需要檢討？能不能提出可行的解決方案？請都給本席還有教文委員一個報告，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：好，謝謝，跟委員報告……"],["范委員雲：多久內可以給我們一個報告？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，這個確實我們執行一年了，也可以更瞭解縣市現在在執行這方面的狀況，我也跟委員報告一個事情，因為現在有這個制度的建立，確實對於一些案件的調查跟最後的審定，相較於過往其實是更明確的有一些具體處理的成效，至於剛才委員所提到的在執行面等等的這一些，我們也藉由這樣的經驗在檢討，2個月內我們把這個部分檢討出來。"],["范委員雲：好，2個月內要包含宜蘭的個案還有這個制度相關的議題，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：好。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝部長。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝范委員、謝謝部長。","接下來請葛如鈞委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-2","speakers":["柯志恩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","吳沛憶","萬美玲","范雲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","林倩綺","林宜瑾","吳春城","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra 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00:01:33,122\n那也是我們的相關的政策普特融合下就是很可能是老師沒有得到足夠的支持那我不知道部長同不同意這個分析就是說老師很可能沒有得到足夠的支持特別是科目老師若不是特教老師的話他面臨到可能是情緒障礙的特教生那媒體的報導是說甚至可能會有暴力的傾向那我們並不知道因為這是媒體的報導\n\n5\n00:01:34,262 --> 00:01:46,833\n如何避免這樣的狀況那剛剛有委員要求說您跟各縣市政府的教育局盡快的開會那我想不管是盡快的開會或者是教育部針對這個媒體報導是臺北市的高中的案例\n\n6\n00:01:51,056 --> 00:02:13,642\n做一個仔細的了解分析那我想您必須要盡快給我們教育文化委員會一個調查報告包含這個檢討如何在避免這樣的悲劇發生因為我覺得這是雙輸那我們要讓所有的現場的老師安心也要讓特教生跟他的家長安心那部長是不是可以做到呢\n\n7\n00:02:14,843 --> 00:02:22,690\n我想對這個個案的部分在第一時間我們也請臺北教育局那校方這邊就這個事項再進一步的做瞭解當然這個委員剛才提到後續瞭解的這些相關的提醒跟應應我們會做一些後續的會商跟措施這個到時候再提供給委員來參考\n\n8\n00:02:40,345 --> 00:02:48,951\n可不可以給我們一個教文委員會的調查報告跟包含就是說未來如何改善避免﹖可以那兩個月的時間夠嗎﹖可以那謝謝部長那另外就是剛剛陳培委員有問到就是我跟陳培委員我們開了一個記者會針對另外一個特教生師衝突剛剛是高中的普特融合現在是宜蘭的某國小\n\n9\n00:03:07,543 --> 00:03:21,942\n特教班特教班是專門給特教生的居然發生嚴重的體罰案我這邊整理的就是因為這個都有驗傷的還有就是有相關的影像包含把特教生的嘴巴撐開強迫餵食\n\n10\n00:03:23,624 --> 00:03:39,797\n用束帶把學生雙手捆綁於椅子還有剛剛陳柏宇委員的影片我們有看到用拉筋的方式教學童數1到50那這個學童是自閉症跟智能障礙這一類的還有扳學童的手指還有用腳踹學童有驗傷單還有體罰是要學童雙腳撐在椅子上雙手撐地15分鐘我們現在講的是父幼是幼稚園\n\n11\n00:03:51,747 --> 00:04:16,533\n還有說因為要訓練學童穿衣在冷氣房把學童的衣服上衣脫掉讓學童被嚇到尿褲子那我想不知道部長有沒有看到這個部分我們這邊給部長看到十幾秒這個媒體的報導你看這個影像是這樣子剛剛那個老師你就看到他現在踢小孩那這個部分是有被錄到的\n\n12\n00:04:17,533 --> 00:04:41,427\n當家長因為有助理員通知他的時候騎腳踏車趕到現場的時候教室還被窗簾完全遮住那家長在外頭聽到小孩在哭叫尖叫那家長很勇敢他便因戴口罩出席我們的記者會因為我想你應該知道特教生的家長對於要挑戰學校老師然後\n\n13\n00:04:42,675 --> 00:04:56,987\n這個事情我們看到的是剛剛陳培文有講過記者會之後宜蘭縣政府的教育局把原本情節不重大的一個調查結果改成情節重大那可是呢成處都是\n\n14\n00:04:58,288 --> 00:04:58,428\n拜訪委員\n\n15\n00:05:15,296 --> 00:05:35,327\n跟委員報告當然這個相關的整體事項可能用直接影片那個影片可以看得出來如果都是當事老師當事學生絕對是不妥當那情節您認為如果您是調查委員是重大還不重大跟委員報告如果就宜蘭縣的目前的調查他們在最後認定的這個會議\n\n16\n00:05:36,508 --> 00:05:38,969\n對這個是以清潔重大在做認定目前後來改成清潔重大應該是說我躲到的資訊他們意思是說原來在調查的過程調查過程有委員認為這部\n\n17\n00:05:53,576 --> 00:05:54,757\n您認為這樣的一個老師﹖剛剛影片看到提小孩的老師﹖還有我剛剛講的這麼多的情節﹖他還適合擔任特教生的老師嗎?\n\n18\n00:06:17,093 --> 00:06:26,600\n委員如果已涉及到情節重大而且又是這樣的方式去提罰甚至用比較不好的叫另一代學生的這方面確實是不適合的連部長都認為不適合了可是呢\n\n19\n00:06:32,624 --> 00:06:50,617\n移蘭教育局的決定已經後來改口情節重大原本調查委員說不重大可是陳楚是一樣的一年後這個人就可以再當老師而且因為他本身是三昭的完全沒有特教資格沒有老師資格這樣的人來當特教班的老師因為他本來就沒有這個資格了所以一年之後他去任何一個幼稚園\n\n20\n00:07:00,103 --> 00:07:24,401\n其實據說是可以當老師的所以我覺得這個除了個案之外我覺得他反映了我們的制度有蠻大的問題那如果連潘部長你都認同這樣的人不適合當老師的話你看一下我們現在的相關法制第一個就是對調查的結果家長特教生的家長特教生是可能表達能力沒有辦法那麼清楚的家長如果對這個調查結果他是無法救濟的\n\n21\n00:07:27,883 --> 00:07:54,578\n調查結果不只拿不到報告然後無法救濟懲處的結果也無法救濟也就是說家長如果沒有辦法找到立委開記者會的話可能剛剛那個案子就是情節不重大了所以這個代表就是說那不是每個家長都願意站出來願意跟立委開記者會那我們來看一下我們在別的制度下其實家長的待遇是不同的跟學生\n\n22\n00:08:12,904 --> 00:08:12,924\n﹚范雲\n\n23\n00:08:28,916 --> 00:08:28,996\n議員發言委員\n\n24\n00:08:52,225 --> 00:09:12,136\n就是制度問題我想謝謝我就不講了我覺得教育部應該要去演繹所以我想問的事情是第一個剛剛教育部已經承諾了針對臺北市這個高中特教生普教融合的個案怎麼去檢討如何避免能不能夠提供教師足夠的支持\n\n25\n00:09:12,936 --> 00:09:20,020\n第二,我想請潘部長也承諾應該要監督宜蘭縣政府年齡剛剛都不認同他們的懲處結果為什麼會對特幼班能夠有這樣的狀況然後變來變去的調查結果結果還認為一年後這個老師還是事任教師所以宜蘭縣政府他們對特幼班事件的調查跟認定\n\n26\n00:09:38,812 --> 00:09:43,338\n是不是有任何的為師沒有遵守你們相關規定的部分這個部分潘部長可以先針對宜蘭這個個案也去做調查嗎?\n\n27\n00:09:49,600 --> 00:10:04,594\n謝謝委員我想對宜蘭縣政府這個剛才在過程稍微說明但教育部在2月29因為有提到說這個不只是可能這一位孩子還有可能涉及園內的其他所以我們已經要求宜蘭縣教育處要重新再做審議這個審議當然就會處理到後續的結果的處置\n\n28\n00:10:14,102 --> 00:10:14,122\n議員報告\n\n29\n00:10:29,444 --> 00:10:42,190\n不管停聘年度：他有一個期間：罰款也有一個期間：那目前看起來一覽縣政府是以這個情節重大的最低限在橫著這件事所以我們要請他們還涉及到其他個案一併的在做審議那在這個部分我也跟委員報告在制度上國教署這邊也正在積極建立有關未來在省著的基準上面也能夠讓縣市有所依循這樣\n\n30\n00:10:58,817 --> 00:10:59,558\n關於我們之前修法要求要求教育部有一個不適任教育的系統\n\n31\n00:11:17,711 --> 00:11:34,784\n但是我們發現就是如果他被停聘期間可以查到他被停聘可是一旦停聘跟公告期間過了系統上就再也查不出這個老師有情節重大的相關的這種霸凌案所以他如果再聘他的別的學校都不會知道\n\n32\n00:11:36,105 --> 00:11:47,733\n這個制度是不是有疏漏影響到學生跟家長的權益跟憂心我想部長也一併理解好不好那最後我想今天因為時間有限只剩27秒我想剛剛講的是宜蘭縣的個案那針對我講就是幼兒園失對生像這種嚴重的事件已經是違法了\n\n33\n00:12:00,321 --> 00:12:27,433\n我們的心智上路到現在是不是可以整體檢視執行的情況包含案件數、調查結果、終局處理因為我想不是只有宜蘭縣可能別的縣市也都會有還有行為人提出救濟的相關數據我們了解實情之後在針對目前的法規包含被害人沒有當事人地位又叫完全是這樣的話那是不是需要檢討能不能提出可行的解決方案\n\n34\n00:12:28,994 --> 00:12:29,914\n本席及教育委員報告\n\n35\n00:12:48,166 --> 00:12:48,486\n謝謝委員謝謝我們的訪問\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5232\t5736\t謝謝各位,有請部長\n10709\t23238\t委員好部長好我想我今天主要要聚焦的就是特教的生師衝突我想部長非常了解就是去年我想這是您任內的一個很大的成果我們把愧為14年沒有修的特教法就是修完了也讓它上路了我們不分黨派都支持要給特教生跟師更多的資源更多的支持\n39108\t43012\t可是我想部長您也有看到就是剛剛也有委員詢問過了這兩天在很多的群組頻傳的一個影片那很多民眾他們看到的是老師的安全問題就是說學生打老師但是有經驗的老師應該就會看到就是說這個是一個特教生師衝突\n64292\t93122\t那也是我們的相關的政策普特融合下就是很可能是老師沒有得到足夠的支持那我不知道部長同不同意這個分析就是說老師很可能沒有得到足夠的支持特別是科目老師若不是特教老師的話他面臨到可能是情緒障礙的特教生那媒體的報導是說甚至可能會有暴力的傾向那我們並不知道因為這是媒體的報導\n94262\t106833\t如何避免這樣的狀況那剛剛有委員要求說您跟各縣市政府的教育局盡快的開會那我想不管是盡快的開會或者是教育部針對這個媒體報導是臺北市的高中的案例\n111056\t133642\t做一個仔細的了解分析那我想您必須要盡快給我們教育文化委員會一個調查報告包含這個檢討如何在避免這樣的悲劇發生因為我覺得這是雙輸那我們要讓所有的現場的老師安心也要讓特教生跟他的家長安心那部長是不是可以做到呢\n134843\t142690\t我想對這個個案的部分在第一時間我們也請臺北教育局那校方這邊就這個事項再進一步的做瞭解當然這個委員剛才提到後續瞭解的這些相關的提醒跟應應我們會做一些後續的會商跟措施這個到時候再提供給委員來參考\n160345\t168951\t可不可以給我們一個教文委員會的調查報告跟包含就是說未來如何改善避免﹖可以那兩個月的時間夠嗎﹖可以那謝謝部長那另外就是剛剛陳培委員有問到就是我跟陳培委員我們開了一個記者會針對另外一個特教生師衝突剛剛是高中的普特融合現在是宜蘭的某國小\n187543\t201942\t特教班特教班是專門給特教生的居然發生嚴重的體罰案我這邊整理的就是因為這個都有驗傷的還有就是有相關的影像包含把特教生的嘴巴撐開強迫餵食\n203624\t219797\t用束帶把學生雙手捆綁於椅子還有剛剛陳柏宇委員的影片我們有看到用拉筋的方式教學童數1到50那這個學童是自閉症跟智能障礙這一類的還有扳學童的手指還有用腳踹學童有驗傷單還有體罰是要學童雙腳撐在椅子上雙手撐地15分鐘我們現在講的是父幼是幼稚園\n231747\t256533\t還有說因為要訓練學童穿衣在冷氣房把學童的衣服上衣脫掉讓學童被嚇到尿褲子那我想不知道部長有沒有看到這個部分我們這邊給部長看到十幾秒這個媒體的報導你看這個影像是這樣子剛剛那個老師你就看到他現在踢小孩那這個部分是有被錄到的\n257533\t281427\t當家長因為有助理員通知他的時候騎腳踏車趕到現場的時候教室還被窗簾完全遮住那家長在外頭聽到小孩在哭叫尖叫那家長很勇敢他便因戴口罩出席我們的記者會因為我想你應該知道特教生的家長對於要挑戰學校老師然後\n282675\t296987\t這個事情我們看到的是剛剛陳培文有講過記者會之後宜蘭縣政府的教育局把原本情節不重大的一個調查結果改成情節重大那可是呢成處都是\n298288\t298428\t拜訪委員\n315296\t335327\t跟委員報告當然這個相關的整體事項可能用直接影片那個影片可以看得出來如果都是當事老師當事學生絕對是不妥當那情節您認為如果您是調查委員是重大還不重大跟委員報告如果就宜蘭縣的目前的調查他們在最後認定的這個會議\n336508\t338969\t對這個是以清潔重大在做認定目前後來改成清潔重大應該是說我躲到的資訊他們意思是說原來在調查的過程調查過程有委員認為這部\n353576\t354757\t您認為這樣的一個老師﹖剛剛影片看到提小孩的老師﹖還有我剛剛講的這麼多的情節﹖他還適合擔任特教生的老師嗎?\n377093\t386600\t委員如果已涉及到情節重大而且又是這樣的方式去提罰甚至用比較不好的叫另一代學生的這方面確實是不適合的連部長都認為不適合了可是呢\n392624\t410617\t移蘭教育局的決定已經後來改口情節重大原本調查委員說不重大可是陳楚是一樣的一年後這個人就可以再當老師而且因為他本身是三昭的完全沒有特教資格沒有老師資格這樣的人來當特教班的老師因為他本來就沒有這個資格了所以一年之後他去任何一個幼稚園\n420103\t444401\t其實據說是可以當老師的所以我覺得這個除了個案之外我覺得他反映了我們的制度有蠻大的問題那如果連潘部長你都認同這樣的人不適合當老師的話你看一下我們現在的相關法制第一個就是對調查的結果家長特教生的家長特教生是可能表達能力沒有辦法那麼清楚的家長如果對這個調查結果他是無法救濟的\n447883\t474578\t調查結果不只拿不到報告然後無法救濟懲處的結果也無法救濟也就是說家長如果沒有辦法找到立委開記者會的話可能剛剛那個案子就是情節不重大了所以這個代表就是說那不是每個家長都願意站出來願意跟立委開記者會那我們來看一下我們在別的制度下其實家長的待遇是不同的跟學生\n474838\t492824\t﹏﹏\n492904\t492924\t﹚范雲\n508916\t508996\t議員發言委員\n532225\t552136\t就是制度問題我想謝謝我就不講了我覺得教育部應該要去演繹所以我想問的事情是第一個剛剛教育部已經承諾了針對臺北市這個高中特教生普教融合的個案怎麼去檢討如何避免能不能夠提供教師足夠的支持\n552936\t560020\t第二,我想請潘部長也承諾應該要監督宜蘭縣政府年齡剛剛都不認同他們的懲處結果為什麼會對特幼班能夠有這樣的狀況然後變來變去的調查結果結果還認為一年後這個老師還是事任教師所以宜蘭縣政府他們對特幼班事件的調查跟認定\n578812\t583338\t是不是有任何的為師沒有遵守你們相關規定的部分這個部分潘部長可以先針對宜蘭這個個案也去做調查嗎?\n589600\t604594\t謝謝委員我想對宜蘭縣政府這個剛才在過程稍微說明但教育部在2月29因為有提到說這個不只是可能這一位孩子還有可能涉及園內的其他所以我們已經要求宜蘭縣教育處要重新再做審議這個審議當然就會處理到後續的結果的處置\n614102\t614122\t議員報告\n629444\t642190\t不管停聘年度：他有一個期間：罰款也有一個期間：那目前看起來一覽縣政府是以這個情節重大的最低限在橫著這件事所以我們要請他們還涉及到其他個案一併的在做審議那在這個部分我也跟委員報告在制度上國教署這邊也正在積極建立有關未來在省著的基準上面也能夠讓縣市有所依循這樣\n658817\t659558\t關於我們之前修法要求要求教育部有一個不適任教育的系統\n677711\t694784\t但是我們發現就是如果他被停聘期間可以查到他被停聘可是一旦停聘跟公告期間過了系統上就再也查不出這個老師有情節重大的相關的這種霸凌案所以他如果再聘他的別的學校都不會知道\n696105\t707733\t這個制度是不是有疏漏影響到學生跟家長的權益跟憂心我想部長也一併理解好不好那最後我想今天因為時間有限只剩27秒我想剛剛講的是宜蘭縣的個案那針對我講就是幼兒園失對生像這種嚴重的事件已經是違法了\n720321\t747433\t我們的心智上路到現在是不是可以整體檢視執行的情況包含案件數、調查結果、終局處理因為我想不是只有宜蘭縣可能別的縣市也都會有還有行為人提出救濟的相關數據我們了解實情之後在針對目前的法規包含被害人沒有當事人地位又叫完全是這樣的話那是不是需要檢討能不能提出可行的解決方案\n748994\t749914\t本席及教育委員報告\n768166\t768486\t謝謝委員謝謝我們的訪問\n","txt":"謝謝各位,有請部長\n委員好部長好我想我今天主要要聚焦的就是特教的生師衝突我想部長非常了解就是去年我想這是您任內的一個很大的成果我們把愧為14年沒有修的特教法就是修完了也讓它上路了我們不分黨派都支持要給特教生跟師更多的資源更多的支持\n可是我想部長您也有看到就是剛剛也有委員詢問過了這兩天在很多的群組頻傳的一個影片那很多民眾他們看到的是老師的安全問題就是說學生打老師但是有經驗的老師應該就會看到就是說這個是一個特教生師衝突\n那也是我們的相關的政策普特融合下就是很可能是老師沒有得到足夠的支持那我不知道部長同不同意這個分析就是說老師很可能沒有得到足夠的支持特別是科目老師若不是特教老師的話他面臨到可能是情緒障礙的特教生那媒體的報導是說甚至可能會有暴力的傾向那我們並不知道因為這是媒體的報導\n如何避免這樣的狀況那剛剛有委員要求說您跟各縣市政府的教育局盡快的開會那我想不管是盡快的開會或者是教育部針對這個媒體報導是臺北市的高中的案例\n做一個仔細的了解分析那我想您必須要盡快給我們教育文化委員會一個調查報告包含這個檢討如何在避免這樣的悲劇發生因為我覺得這是雙輸那我們要讓所有的現場的老師安心也要讓特教生跟他的家長安心那部長是不是可以做到呢\n我想對這個個案的部分在第一時間我們也請臺北教育局那校方這邊就這個事項再進一步的做瞭解當然這個委員剛才提到後續瞭解的這些相關的提醒跟應應我們會做一些後續的會商跟措施這個到時候再提供給委員來參考\n可不可以給我們一個教文委員會的調查報告跟包含就是說未來如何改善避免﹖可以那兩個月的時間夠嗎﹖可以那謝謝部長那另外就是剛剛陳培委員有問到就是我跟陳培委員我們開了一個記者會針對另外一個特教生師衝突剛剛是高中的普特融合現在是宜蘭的某國小\n特教班特教班是專門給特教生的居然發生嚴重的體罰案我這邊整理的就是因為這個都有驗傷的還有就是有相關的影像包含把特教生的嘴巴撐開強迫餵食\n用束帶把學生雙手捆綁於椅子還有剛剛陳柏宇委員的影片我們有看到用拉筋的方式教學童數1到50那這個學童是自閉症跟智能障礙這一類的還有扳學童的手指還有用腳踹學童有驗傷單還有體罰是要學童雙腳撐在椅子上雙手撐地15分鐘我們現在講的是父幼是幼稚園\n還有說因為要訓練學童穿衣在冷氣房把學童的衣服上衣脫掉讓學童被嚇到尿褲子那我想不知道部長有沒有看到這個部分我們這邊給部長看到十幾秒這個媒體的報導你看這個影像是這樣子剛剛那個老師你就看到他現在踢小孩那這個部分是有被錄到的\n當家長因為有助理員通知他的時候騎腳踏車趕到現場的時候教室還被窗簾完全遮住那家長在外頭聽到小孩在哭叫尖叫那家長很勇敢他便因戴口罩出席我們的記者會因為我想你應該知道特教生的家長對於要挑戰學校老師然後\n這個事情我們看到的是剛剛陳培文有講過記者會之後宜蘭縣政府的教育局把原本情節不重大的一個調查結果改成情節重大那可是呢成處都是\n拜訪委員\n跟委員報告當然這個相關的整體事項可能用直接影片那個影片可以看得出來如果都是當事老師當事學生絕對是不妥當那情節您認為如果您是調查委員是重大還不重大跟委員報告如果就宜蘭縣的目前的調查他們在最後認定的這個會議\n對這個是以清潔重大在做認定目前後來改成清潔重大應該是說我躲到的資訊他們意思是說原來在調查的過程調查過程有委員認為這部\n您認為這樣的一個老師﹖剛剛影片看到提小孩的老師﹖還有我剛剛講的這麼多的情節﹖他還適合擔任特教生的老師嗎?\n委員如果已涉及到情節重大而且又是這樣的方式去提罰甚至用比較不好的叫另一代學生的這方面確實是不適合的連部長都認為不適合了可是呢\n移蘭教育局的決定已經後來改口情節重大原本調查委員說不重大可是陳楚是一樣的一年後這個人就可以再當老師而且因為他本身是三昭的完全沒有特教資格沒有老師資格這樣的人來當特教班的老師因為他本來就沒有這個資格了所以一年之後他去任何一個幼稚園\n其實據說是可以當老師的所以我覺得這個除了個案之外我覺得他反映了我們的制度有蠻大的問題那如果連潘部長你都認同這樣的人不適合當老師的話你看一下我們現在的相關法制第一個就是對調查的結果家長特教生的家長特教生是可能表達能力沒有辦法那麼清楚的家長如果對這個調查結果他是無法救濟的\n調查結果不只拿不到報告然後無法救濟懲處的結果也無法救濟也就是說家長如果沒有辦法找到立委開記者會的話可能剛剛那個案子就是情節不重大了所以這個代表就是說那不是每個家長都願意站出來願意跟立委開記者會那我們來看一下我們在別的制度下其實家長的待遇是不同的跟學生\n﹏﹏\n﹚范雲\n議員發言委員\n就是制度問題我想謝謝我就不講了我覺得教育部應該要去演繹所以我想問的事情是第一個剛剛教育部已經承諾了針對臺北市這個高中特教生普教融合的個案怎麼去檢討如何避免能不能夠提供教師足夠的支持\n第二,我想請潘部長也承諾應該要監督宜蘭縣政府年齡剛剛都不認同他們的懲處結果為什麼會對特幼班能夠有這樣的狀況然後變來變去的調查結果結果還認為一年後這個老師還是事任教師所以宜蘭縣政府他們對特幼班事件的調查跟認定\n是不是有任何的為師沒有遵守你們相關規定的部分這個部分潘部長可以先針對宜蘭這個個案也去做調查嗎?\n謝謝委員我想對宜蘭縣政府這個剛才在過程稍微說明但教育部在2月29因為有提到說這個不只是可能這一位孩子還有可能涉及園內的其他所以我們已經要求宜蘭縣教育處要重新再做審議這個審議當然就會處理到後續的結果的處置\n議員報告\n不管停聘年度：他有一個期間：罰款也有一個期間：那目前看起來一覽縣政府是以這個情節重大的最低限在橫著這件事所以我們要請他們還涉及到其他個案一併的在做審議那在這個部分我也跟委員報告在制度上國教署這邊也正在積極建立有關未來在省著的基準上面也能夠讓縣市有所依循這樣\n關於我們之前修法要求要求教育部有一個不適任教育的系統\n但是我們發現就是如果他被停聘期間可以查到他被停聘可是一旦停聘跟公告期間過了系統上就再也查不出這個老師有情節重大的相關的這種霸凌案所以他如果再聘他的別的學校都不會知道\n這個制度是不是有疏漏影響到學生跟家長的權益跟憂心我想部長也一併理解好不好那最後我想今天因為時間有限只剩27秒我想剛剛講的是宜蘭縣的個案那針對我講就是幼兒園失對生像這種嚴重的事件已經是違法了\n我們的心智上路到現在是不是可以整體檢視執行的情況包含案件數、調查結果、終局處理因為我想不是只有宜蘭縣可能別的縣市也都會有還有行為人提出救濟的相關數據我們了解實情之後在針對目前的法規包含被害人沒有當事人地位又叫完全是這樣的話那是不是需要檢討能不能提出可行的解決方案\n本席及教育委員報告\n謝謝委員謝謝我們的訪問\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.232 --> 00:05.736\n謝謝各位,有請部長\n\n00:10.709 --> 00:23.238\n委員好部長好我想我今天主要要聚焦的就是特教的生師衝突我想部長非常了解就是去年我想這是您任內的一個很大的成果我們把愧為14年沒有修的特教法就是修完了也讓它上路了我們不分黨派都支持要給特教生跟師更多的資源更多的支持\n\n00:39.108 --> 00:43.012\n可是我想部長您也有看到就是剛剛也有委員詢問過了這兩天在很多的群組頻傳的一個影片那很多民眾他們看到的是老師的安全問題就是說學生打老師但是有經驗的老師應該就會看到就是說這個是一個特教生師衝突\n\n01:04.292 --> 01:33.122\n那也是我們的相關的政策普特融合下就是很可能是老師沒有得到足夠的支持那我不知道部長同不同意這個分析就是說老師很可能沒有得到足夠的支持特別是科目老師若不是特教老師的話他面臨到可能是情緒障礙的特教生那媒體的報導是說甚至可能會有暴力的傾向那我們並不知道因為這是媒體的報導\n\n01:34.262 --> 01:46.833\n如何避免這樣的狀況那剛剛有委員要求說您跟各縣市政府的教育局盡快的開會那我想不管是盡快的開會或者是教育部針對這個媒體報導是臺北市的高中的案例\n\n01:51.056 --> 02:13.642\n做一個仔細的了解分析那我想您必須要盡快給我們教育文化委員會一個調查報告包含這個檢討如何在避免這樣的悲劇發生因為我覺得這是雙輸那我們要讓所有的現場的老師安心也要讓特教生跟他的家長安心那部長是不是可以做到呢\n\n02:14.843 --> 02:22.690\n我想對這個個案的部分在第一時間我們也請臺北教育局那校方這邊就這個事項再進一步的做瞭解當然這個委員剛才提到後續瞭解的這些相關的提醒跟應應我們會做一些後續的會商跟措施這個到時候再提供給委員來參考\n\n02:40.345 --> 02:48.951\n可不可以給我們一個教文委員會的調查報告跟包含就是說未來如何改善避免﹖可以那兩個月的時間夠嗎﹖可以那謝謝部長那另外就是剛剛陳培委員有問到就是我跟陳培委員我們開了一個記者會針對另外一個特教生師衝突剛剛是高中的普特融合現在是宜蘭的某國小\n\n03:07.543 --> 03:21.942\n特教班特教班是專門給特教生的居然發生嚴重的體罰案我這邊整理的就是因為這個都有驗傷的還有就是有相關的影像包含把特教生的嘴巴撐開強迫餵食\n\n03:23.624 --> 03:39.797\n用束帶把學生雙手捆綁於椅子還有剛剛陳柏宇委員的影片我們有看到用拉筋的方式教學童數1到50那這個學童是自閉症跟智能障礙這一類的還有扳學童的手指還有用腳踹學童有驗傷單還有體罰是要學童雙腳撐在椅子上雙手撐地15分鐘我們現在講的是父幼是幼稚園\n\n03:51.747 --> 04:16.533\n還有說因為要訓練學童穿衣在冷氣房把學童的衣服上衣脫掉讓學童被嚇到尿褲子那我想不知道部長有沒有看到這個部分我們這邊給部長看到十幾秒這個媒體的報導你看這個影像是這樣子剛剛那個老師你就看到他現在踢小孩那這個部分是有被錄到的\n\n04:17.533 --> 04:41.427\n當家長因為有助理員通知他的時候騎腳踏車趕到現場的時候教室還被窗簾完全遮住那家長在外頭聽到小孩在哭叫尖叫那家長很勇敢他便因戴口罩出席我們的記者會因為我想你應該知道特教生的家長對於要挑戰學校老師然後\n\n04:42.675 --> 04:56.987\n這個事情我們看到的是剛剛陳培文有講過記者會之後宜蘭縣政府的教育局把原本情節不重大的一個調查結果改成情節重大那可是呢成處都是\n\n04:58.288 --> 04:58.428\n拜訪委員\n\n05:15.296 --> 05:35.327\n跟委員報告當然這個相關的整體事項可能用直接影片那個影片可以看得出來如果都是當事老師當事學生絕對是不妥當那情節您認為如果您是調查委員是重大還不重大跟委員報告如果就宜蘭縣的目前的調查他們在最後認定的這個會議\n\n05:36.508 --> 05:38.969\n對這個是以清潔重大在做認定目前後來改成清潔重大應該是說我躲到的資訊他們意思是說原來在調查的過程調查過程有委員認為這部\n\n05:53.576 --> 05:54.757\n您認為這樣的一個老師﹖剛剛影片看到提小孩的老師﹖還有我剛剛講的這麼多的情節﹖他還適合擔任特教生的老師嗎?\n\n06:17.093 --> 06:26.600\n委員如果已涉及到情節重大而且又是這樣的方式去提罰甚至用比較不好的叫另一代學生的這方面確實是不適合的連部長都認為不適合了可是呢\n\n06:32.624 --> 06:50.617\n移蘭教育局的決定已經後來改口情節重大原本調查委員說不重大可是陳楚是一樣的一年後這個人就可以再當老師而且因為他本身是三昭的完全沒有特教資格沒有老師資格這樣的人來當特教班的老師因為他本來就沒有這個資格了所以一年之後他去任何一個幼稚園\n\n07:00.103 --> 07:24.401\n其實據說是可以當老師的所以我覺得這個除了個案之外我覺得他反映了我們的制度有蠻大的問題那如果連潘部長你都認同這樣的人不適合當老師的話你看一下我們現在的相關法制第一個就是對調查的結果家長特教生的家長特教生是可能表達能力沒有辦法那麼清楚的家長如果對這個調查結果他是無法救濟的\n\n07:27.883 --> 07:54.578\n調查結果不只拿不到報告然後無法救濟懲處的結果也無法救濟也就是說家長如果沒有辦法找到立委開記者會的話可能剛剛那個案子就是情節不重大了所以這個代表就是說那不是每個家長都願意站出來願意跟立委開記者會那我們來看一下我們在別的制度下其實家長的待遇是不同的跟學生\n\n08:12.904 --> 08:12.924\n﹚范雲\n\n08:28.916 --> 08:28.996\n議員發言委員\n\n08:52.225 --> 09:12.136\n就是制度問題我想謝謝我就不講了我覺得教育部應該要去演繹所以我想問的事情是第一個剛剛教育部已經承諾了針對臺北市這個高中特教生普教融合的個案怎麼去檢討如何避免能不能夠提供教師足夠的支持\n\n09:12.936 --> 09:20.020\n第二,我想請潘部長也承諾應該要監督宜蘭縣政府年齡剛剛都不認同他們的懲處結果為什麼會對特幼班能夠有這樣的狀況然後變來變去的調查結果結果還認為一年後這個老師還是事任教師所以宜蘭縣政府他們對特幼班事件的調查跟認定\n\n09:38.812 --> 09:43.338\n是不是有任何的為師沒有遵守你們相關規定的部分這個部分潘部長可以先針對宜蘭這個個案也去做調查嗎?\n\n09:49.600 --> 10:04.594\n謝謝委員我想對宜蘭縣政府這個剛才在過程稍微說明但教育部在2月29因為有提到說這個不只是可能這一位孩子還有可能涉及園內的其他所以我們已經要求宜蘭縣教育處要重新再做審議這個審議當然就會處理到後續的結果的處置\n\n10:14.102 --> 10:14.122\n議員報告\n\n10:29.444 --> 10:42.190\n不管停聘年度：他有一個期間：罰款也有一個期間：那目前看起來一覽縣政府是以這個情節重大的最低限在橫著這件事所以我們要請他們還涉及到其他個案一併的在做審議那在這個部分我也跟委員報告在制度上國教署這邊也正在積極建立有關未來在省著的基準上面也能夠讓縣市有所依循這樣\n\n10:58.817 --> 10:59.558\n關於我們之前修法要求要求教育部有一個不適任教育的系統\n\n11:17.711 --> 11:34.784\n但是我們發現就是如果他被停聘期間可以查到他被停聘可是一旦停聘跟公告期間過了系統上就再也查不出這個老師有情節重大的相關的這種霸凌案所以他如果再聘他的別的學校都不會知道\n\n11:36.105 --> 11:47.733\n這個制度是不是有疏漏影響到學生跟家長的權益跟憂心我想部長也一併理解好不好那最後我想今天因為時間有限只剩27秒我想剛剛講的是宜蘭縣的個案那針對我講就是幼兒園失對生像這種嚴重的事件已經是違法了\n\n12:00.321 --> 12:27.433\n我們的心智上路到現在是不是可以整體檢視執行的情況包含案件數、調查結果、終局處理因為我想不是只有宜蘭縣可能別的縣市也都會有還有行為人提出救濟的相關數據我們了解實情之後在針對目前的法規包含被害人沒有當事人地位又叫完全是這樣的話那是不是需要檢討能不能提出可行的解決方案\n\n12:28.994 --> 12:29.914\n本席及教育委員報告\n\n12:48.166 --> 12:48.486\n謝謝委員謝謝我們的訪問\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.232,"end":5.736,"text":"謝謝各位,有請部長"},{"start":10.709,"end":23.238,"text":"委員好部長好我想我今天主要要聚焦的就是特教的生師衝突我想部長非常了解就是去年我想這是您任內的一個很大的成果我們把愧為14年沒有修的特教法就是修完了也讓它上路了我們不分黨派都支持要給特教生跟師更多的資源更多的支持"},{"start":39.108,"end":43.012,"text":"可是我想部長您也有看到就是剛剛也有委員詢問過了這兩天在很多的群組頻傳的一個影片那很多民眾他們看到的是老師的安全問題就是說學生打老師但是有經驗的老師應該就會看到就是說這個是一個特教生師衝突"},{"start":64.292,"end":93.122,"text":"那也是我們的相關的政策普特融合下就是很可能是老師沒有得到足夠的支持那我不知道部長同不同意這個分析就是說老師很可能沒有得到足夠的支持特別是科目老師若不是特教老師的話他面臨到可能是情緒障礙的特教生那媒體的報導是說甚至可能會有暴力的傾向那我們並不知道因為這是媒體的報導"},{"start":94.262,"end":106.833,"text":"如何避免這樣的狀況那剛剛有委員要求說您跟各縣市政府的教育局盡快的開會那我想不管是盡快的開會或者是教育部針對這個媒體報導是臺北市的高中的案例"},{"start":111.056,"end":133.642,"text":"做一個仔細的了解分析那我想您必須要盡快給我們教育文化委員會一個調查報告包含這個檢討如何在避免這樣的悲劇發生因為我覺得這是雙輸那我們要讓所有的現場的老師安心也要讓特教生跟他的家長安心那部長是不是可以做到呢"},{"start":134.843,"end":142.69,"text":"我想對這個個案的部分在第一時間我們也請臺北教育局那校方這邊就這個事項再進一步的做瞭解當然這個委員剛才提到後續瞭解的這些相關的提醒跟應應我們會做一些後續的會商跟措施這個到時候再提供給委員來參考"},{"start":160.345,"end":168.951,"text":"可不可以給我們一個教文委員會的調查報告跟包含就是說未來如何改善避免﹖可以那兩個月的時間夠嗎﹖可以那謝謝部長那另外就是剛剛陳培委員有問到就是我跟陳培委員我們開了一個記者會針對另外一個特教生師衝突剛剛是高中的普特融合現在是宜蘭的某國小"},{"start":187.543,"end":201.942,"text":"特教班特教班是專門給特教生的居然發生嚴重的體罰案我這邊整理的就是因為這個都有驗傷的還有就是有相關的影像包含把特教生的嘴巴撐開強迫餵食"},{"start":203.624,"end":219.797,"text":"用束帶把學生雙手捆綁於椅子還有剛剛陳柏宇委員的影片我們有看到用拉筋的方式教學童數1到50那這個學童是自閉症跟智能障礙這一類的還有扳學童的手指還有用腳踹學童有驗傷單還有體罰是要學童雙腳撐在椅子上雙手撐地15分鐘我們現在講的是父幼是幼稚園"},{"start":231.747,"end":256.533,"text":"還有說因為要訓練學童穿衣在冷氣房把學童的衣服上衣脫掉讓學童被嚇到尿褲子那我想不知道部長有沒有看到這個部分我們這邊給部長看到十幾秒這個媒體的報導你看這個影像是這樣子剛剛那個老師你就看到他現在踢小孩那這個部分是有被錄到的"},{"start":257.533,"end":281.427,"text":"當家長因為有助理員通知他的時候騎腳踏車趕到現場的時候教室還被窗簾完全遮住那家長在外頭聽到小孩在哭叫尖叫那家長很勇敢他便因戴口罩出席我們的記者會因為我想你應該知道特教生的家長對於要挑戰學校老師然後"},{"start":282.675,"end":296.987,"text":"這個事情我們看到的是剛剛陳培文有講過記者會之後宜蘭縣政府的教育局把原本情節不重大的一個調查結果改成情節重大那可是呢成處都是"},{"start":298.288,"end":298.428,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":315.296,"end":335.327,"text":"跟委員報告當然這個相關的整體事項可能用直接影片那個影片可以看得出來如果都是當事老師當事學生絕對是不妥當那情節您認為如果您是調查委員是重大還不重大跟委員報告如果就宜蘭縣的目前的調查他們在最後認定的這個會議"},{"start":336.508,"end":338.969,"text":"對這個是以清潔重大在做認定目前後來改成清潔重大應該是說我躲到的資訊他們意思是說原來在調查的過程調查過程有委員認為這部"},{"start":353.576,"end":354.757,"text":"您認為這樣的一個老師﹖剛剛影片看到提小孩的老師﹖還有我剛剛講的這麼多的情節﹖他還適合擔任特教生的老師嗎?"},{"start":377.093,"end":386.6,"text":"委員如果已涉及到情節重大而且又是這樣的方式去提罰甚至用比較不好的叫另一代學生的這方面確實是不適合的連部長都認為不適合了可是呢"},{"start":392.624,"end":410.617,"text":"移蘭教育局的決定已經後來改口情節重大原本調查委員說不重大可是陳楚是一樣的一年後這個人就可以再當老師而且因為他本身是三昭的完全沒有特教資格沒有老師資格這樣的人來當特教班的老師因為他本來就沒有這個資格了所以一年之後他去任何一個幼稚園"},{"start":420.103,"end":444.401,"text":"其實據說是可以當老師的所以我覺得這個除了個案之外我覺得他反映了我們的制度有蠻大的問題那如果連潘部長你都認同這樣的人不適合當老師的話你看一下我們現在的相關法制第一個就是對調查的結果家長特教生的家長特教生是可能表達能力沒有辦法那麼清楚的家長如果對這個調查結果他是無法救濟的"},{"start":447.883,"end":474.578,"text":"調查結果不只拿不到報告然後無法救濟懲處的結果也無法救濟也就是說家長如果沒有辦法找到立委開記者會的話可能剛剛那個案子就是情節不重大了所以這個代表就是說那不是每個家長都願意站出來願意跟立委開記者會那我們來看一下我們在別的制度下其實家長的待遇是不同的跟學生"},{"start":474.838,"end":492.824,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":492.904,"end":492.924,"text":"﹚范雲"},{"start":508.916,"end":508.996,"text":"議員發言委員"},{"start":532.225,"end":552.136,"text":"就是制度問題我想謝謝我就不講了我覺得教育部應該要去演繹所以我想問的事情是第一個剛剛教育部已經承諾了針對臺北市這個高中特教生普教融合的個案怎麼去檢討如何避免能不能夠提供教師足夠的支持"},{"start":552.936,"end":560.02,"text":"第二,我想請潘部長也承諾應該要監督宜蘭縣政府年齡剛剛都不認同他們的懲處結果為什麼會對特幼班能夠有這樣的狀況然後變來變去的調查結果結果還認為一年後這個老師還是事任教師所以宜蘭縣政府他們對特幼班事件的調查跟認定"},{"start":578.812,"end":583.338,"text":"是不是有任何的為師沒有遵守你們相關規定的部分這個部分潘部長可以先針對宜蘭這個個案也去做調查嗎?"},{"start":589.6,"end":604.594,"text":"謝謝委員我想對宜蘭縣政府這個剛才在過程稍微說明但教育部在2月29因為有提到說這個不只是可能這一位孩子還有可能涉及園內的其他所以我們已經要求宜蘭縣教育處要重新再做審議這個審議當然就會處理到後續的結果的處置"},{"start":614.102,"end":614.122,"text":"議員報告"},{"start":629.444,"end":642.19,"text":"不管停聘年度：他有一個期間：罰款也有一個期間：那目前看起來一覽縣政府是以這個情節重大的最低限在橫著這件事所以我們要請他們還涉及到其他個案一併的在做審議那在這個部分我也跟委員報告在制度上國教署這邊也正在積極建立有關未來在省著的基準上面也能夠讓縣市有所依循這樣"},{"start":658.817,"end":659.558,"text":"關於我們之前修法要求要求教育部有一個不適任教育的系統"},{"start":677.711,"end":694.784,"text":"但是我們發現就是如果他被停聘期間可以查到他被停聘可是一旦停聘跟公告期間過了系統上就再也查不出這個老師有情節重大的相關的這種霸凌案所以他如果再聘他的別的學校都不會知道"},{"start":696.105,"end":707.733,"text":"這個制度是不是有疏漏影響到學生跟家長的權益跟憂心我想部長也一併理解好不好那最後我想今天因為時間有限只剩27秒我想剛剛講的是宜蘭縣的個案那針對我講就是幼兒園失對生像這種嚴重的事件已經是違法了"},{"start":720.321,"end":747.433,"text":"我們的心智上路到現在是不是可以整體檢視執行的情況包含案件數、調查結果、終局處理因為我想不是只有宜蘭縣可能別的縣市也都會有還有行為人提出救濟的相關數據我們了解實情之後在針對目前的法規包含被害人沒有當事人地位又叫完全是這樣的話那是不是需要檢討能不能提出可行的解決方案"},{"start":748.994,"end":749.914,"text":"本席及教育委員報告"},{"start":768.166,"end":768.486,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝我們的訪問"}]}}}}