{"id":149216,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149216","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd9884f90bc356b7f1faa0e83a28976539f8ba9b0039caa7a64694c160275afada5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"10:14:47 - 10:28:34","影片長度":"00:13:47","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":827,"end_time":"2024-03-04T10:28:34+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T10:14:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":432,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（10時14分）謝謝主席，請主委。"],["主席：請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員澤成：何委員，你好。"],["何委員欣純：主委好。剛剛魯委員講的那一件事情，在實務面、事實上是這幾年真的很嚴重的情況，我覺得公共工程委員會真的是要馬上、立即、即刻的去跨部會解決。"],["吳主任委員澤成：好。"],["何委員欣純：接著還有一個是公共工程委會也必須要積極面對而且要跨部會探討的──氣候變遷因應法在112年立法之後，面對全世界減碳的方向，各個部會也都要積極來因應。我看到公共工程委員會在這方面，說實在的還可以更好、更有效率。像3月10號到14號立法院有一團國會議員團要去日本，參加亞太國會議員聯合會第52屆會員代表大會，事實上，這一次大會的主題也是氣候變遷環境之下未來跨國際之間的一些因應，大家要互相交流。我們今天當然是聚焦在國內的公共工程，我想要請教主委，在氣候變遷因應法三讀通過之前，我就在你們的網站上有爬梳到，過去有所謂的政策白皮書，有找到98到102年你們要求各部會減碳的參考原則，就這樣子而已，很簡單。至於內容，我覺得也很簡單，那時候是因為我們還沒有立法。我們在112年立法之後，我也有看到你們有公布所謂的碳檢核，有把減碳的經費納入公共工程經費估算編列手冊的總則裡面，等於原則性的有開始在做、開始在進步。可是我必須要問主委，這個原則性的東西還是讓基層第一線執行的公務人員或是地方政府很難辦，為什麼？我們必須要去瞭解，第一個、目前可以做碳檢核或是碳足跡的第三方驗證單位有哪些？這是一個我們必須要去面對的問題。你不能只公布了一個原則，結果根本找不到……你知道我們1年有多少萬件的公共工程在進行嗎？"],["吳主任委員澤成：4萬件。"],["何委員欣純：你要求1億元以上的公共工程都必須要做碳檢核、去爬梳所有的碳足跡，那誰來做？第三方驗證單位有哪些？有沒有揭露公開資訊讓各地方政府、各行政單位、執行單位跟所謂的業界、包商，大家都能夠找得到？這是專業的問題。第二個、公共工程委員會在這一方面還必須要求什麼？各行政機關要訂定檢核機制跟減碳目標，現在我看到你們有訂了，原則都訂了，指引也講了，但是你有要求各行政單位要提進度跟時程嗎？我不知道，因為我在任何的資料都看不到。第三個、又是專業的問題，各部會、各單位有所謂碳檢核的專業人員嗎？第一線執行的呢？為什麼我要講這個？工程採購的時候，你要求第一線公務人員在辦的時候怎麼檢核、落實？他完全沒有經驗，沒有背景，沒有相關的專業，我想當然爾、揣測就只好委外，而委外就會回到我剛剛講的，業界能夠做的有哪些單位？能量足嗎？第四個、除了行政部門要求自己要做之外，我們發包出去了之後，產業界又是如何在執行？這些都是問題，主委，你有沒有想過？"],["吳主任委員澤成：謝謝委員的提醒，我覺得碳排的問題是比較新進的立法跟趨勢的作法，其實在……"],["何委員欣純：主委，其實不是先進，我剛剛給你看，我們立法之前，你從98年就開始有在做了啦！就是有一些資訊，甚至觀念上就在要求了，有一些原則了嘛！"],["吳主任委員澤成：我要講的是，就工程來講，它本來本身就有一個價值工程已經在進行，應該跟這個做連結。"],["何委員欣純：是啦！問題是要怎麼做連結？我現在問的是這個，我們當然知道要做連結，但現在最困難的，就是公共工程委員會必須更進一步去做的是要如何連結，所以就像我現在講的，公共工程裡面碳含量的估算標準又是如何？剛剛林俊憲委員有提到一點，他說現在環境部確實有針對幾項比較大項的有所謂碳估算的類似標準，但是公共工程委員會有嗎？我看到新聞是說首波是鋼筋業、水泥業要先做，因為他們已經在做了，甚至走在行政部門的前端，那我們現在要如何加強跟他們溝通？我必須要講為什麼我要提到這個，如果我們的碳含量估算標準是公共工程委員會跟環境部好好的坐下來一項一項把它講清楚、列清楚，而且寫清楚，那按照規劃，從今年起所有政府電子採購網上面要新增一個減碳欄位，因為你強制部會興建工程時要先填寫預估碳含量，如果沒有填，就沒有辦法完成採購程序，也沒有辦法取得所謂的工程物料。但是我現在就要回頭問你，你要求第一線執行的公務人員填寫這個減碳欄位，他要怎麼填？他怎麼下手去填？又委外，是不是？如果又委外，可以嗎？"],["吳主任委員澤成：這個部分，我同意……"],["何委員欣純：主委，你知道問題出在哪裡嗎？你知道我問什麼嗎？這叫做執行，你剛剛講公共工程要跟碳排、減碳連結，沒錯啊！這個我也會講，但是怎麼執行？怎麼落實？我剛剛開始就問你，這個減碳欄位要由誰來填？"],["吳主任委員澤成：我們會來做出一套換算的……"],["何委員欣純：沒有，主委，那我先請問你，你說按照規劃，今年起所有政府電子採購網都將新增減碳欄位，強制部會填寫興建工程預估碳含量，是強制喔！如果沒有填，就沒有辦法完成採購程序，甚至會影響到工程物料的取得。好，如果按照你的規劃，想必你已經有一套系統、SOP來告訴各政府單位第一線的執行人員，在電子採購網上，如果有興建工程，他必須要去填這個東西，問題是怎麼填？誰來填？"],["吳主任委員澤成：我瞭解委員的意思，我們會把它規劃……"],["何委員欣純：所以現在有規劃了嗎？"],["吳主任委員澤成：正在進行。"],["何委員欣純：正在進行，所以沒有細節？"],["吳主任委員澤成：目前是一個宣導的階段。"],["何委員欣純：不能這樣說啦！主委！你現在越這樣說我越害怕，政府單位的政策規劃下去，然後呢？在經費的預估上你也加了碳費的經費，現在你跟我講，按照規劃今年起所有的政府電子採購網都要填寫，而且這是強制性的，你都已經公開宣布這件事了，結果我現在問你，第一個，怎麼填？誰來填？有規劃嗎？有這樣的專業人員嗎？有嗎？來！誰可以回答？"],["葉副主任委員哲良：報告委員，我們目前的規劃是這樣，從現在開始到116年都是在一個過渡期，目前我們的資料庫正在驗測中，預估今年6月開放給廠商來填，這個廠商是什麼廠商呢？我們會分批，由比較重要的往越來越細節來做，所以第一批碳排最大的就是鋼筋水泥業這些……"],["何委員欣純：沒有，沒有，副主委，你講的不是我的問題，我講的第一個問題，你說所有政府部門的電子採購網要新增減碳欄位，強制部會各單位填寫，興建工程要先預估碳含量……"],["葉副主任委員哲良：是。"],["何委員欣純：那我就請教你，我剛剛的問題是，這表示是由政府部門的公務人員來填寫，所以我才問第一個誰來填？第二個誰來寫？第三個誰來估？"],["葉副主任委員哲良：是，這就誠如剛剛主委講的，我們會從方案設計開始做，所以一開始……"],["何委員欣純：所以現在還沒有設計就對了？"],["葉副主任委員哲良：不是，不是，我是說設計階段，工程的設計階段，工程設計階段裡面最重要的是建材，建材占80%，所以我們會有一個建材的碳強度資料庫，讓他去乘以他所使用的數量，看看會不會從設計的方法來減少所使用的碳排量。"],["何委員欣純：可是你們公告的、宣布的是強制部會來填寫，不是廠商業者填寫。"],["葉副主任委員哲良：不是，不是，我們會有一個……"],["何委員欣純：不是設計的廠商來填寫。"],["葉副主任委員哲良：我們會有一個計算的模型，建築類部分，目前我們正在跟內政部的建研所合作，他會有一個模型供他們使用。"],["何委員欣純：那這個模型要多久能夠產生？"],["葉副主任委員哲良：我們正在努力中，大概今年一定會上路。"],["何委員欣純：所以今年6月來得及，就是你說的上路嗎？"],["葉副主任委員哲良：第一階段建材的部分一定會上路，然後再過來就是計算模型。"],["何委員欣純：在建材部分，建材原料百百種、千萬種，你們怎麼分門別類來估算？第二個，剛剛俊憲委員有提到跟我相同的點，就是各個工程相關物料製程裡的碳盤查資料庫的建立，這個你們能夠建立嗎？"],["葉副主任委員哲良：報告，我們目前的碳排資料庫是由廠商經過ISO14067跟環境部的TCR……"],["何委員欣純：所以我現在跟你講喔，副主委，你要跟主委報告清楚，有兩件事，一個是我們行政部門自己的事情，一個是產業界、業者的事情。我接下來就要問，你們公布2年之內八大類工程要先推，2年做得到嗎？八大項公共工程，包含建築、軌道、水利設施、橋梁等，這些都是重大工程，而且是民生重大工程，每一件大工程裡面所包含的鏈結產業非常的多，那你說2年內要做到，做得到嗎？"],["葉副主任委員哲良：報告委員，目前這八大類裡面，有二個已經ready了，一個是建築，一個是水利，這二個一個在內政部，一個在經濟部，他們都已經把減碳的指引設計……"],["何委員欣純：那其他部會呢？"],["葉副主任委員哲良：我們就是在未來2年要更努力……"],["何委員欣純：我建議除了政府部門之間要跨部會去協調這件事外，也要加強產業界的溝通跟輔導。"],["葉副主任委員哲良：是。"],["何委員欣純：這是一定要做的。最後的最後，有一個是你們可以先做的，最簡單的，就是臺灣銀行有一個共同供應契約平臺，這個你們都知道嘛！"],["葉副主任委員哲良：是。"],["何委員欣純：所有各大小的行政部門要做所謂的設備採購的時候，都會上這個共同供應的契約平臺，這裡面我覺得你們可以先做什麼？先從小的做起，先從他們的減碳量的資訊揭露做起，在這個平臺上面，各大行政單位都要在這個平臺採購，如果要推動減碳，小件的先做，至於你那八大類，我也期待2年之內，你們真的能做得到指引跟輔導，好不好？"],["葉副主任委員哲良：是。"],["何委員欣純：我覺得要落實、要務實，才能夠推動政策向前走，好不好？謝謝。"],["葉副主任委員哲良：好。"],["主席：好，謝謝何委員。現在要請陳素月委員發言，在這邊也做個宣布，陳素月委員以及在場的邱若華委員發言完畢之後，我們休息10分鐘。","現在請陳委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","林沛祥","黃健豪","廖先翔","徐富癸","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","邱若華","游顥","蔡其昌","許智傑","陳俊宇","邱志偉"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130901_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"149216","pyannote":{"name":"ro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\"報告我們目前的碳排資料庫是由廠商經過14067跟環境部的PCR所以我現在跟你講喔副主委包括你要跟主委報告清楚有兩件事喔一個是我們自己行政部門自己的事情喔一個是產業界業者的事情喔那我接下來要講你們公布說兩年之內八大類工程要先推那兩年做得到嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 697.692, \"end\": 697.832, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 697.832, \"end\": 698.072, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 698.072, \"end\": 698.312, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 698.312, \"end\": 698.532, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 698.532, \"end\": 699.053, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"碳\", \"start\": 699.053, \"end\": 699.233, \"score\": 0.753}, {\"word\": \"排\", \"start\": 699.233, \"end\": 699.753, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 699.753, \"end\": 700.153, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"庫\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 700.153, \"end\": 700.253, \"score\": 0.705}, {\"word\": \"由\", \"start\": 700.253, \"end\": 700.813, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"廠\"}, {\"word\": \"商\", 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00:00:08,185\n謝謝主席昆喆召委我們請主委要不要喝口水沒關係我可以等\n\n2\n00:00:15,603 --> 00:00:32,656\n主委好剛剛盧委員講的那一件事情在實務面上事實上是這幾年真的很嚴重的情況我覺得公共工程委員會真的是要馬上立即即刻的去跨部會解決那接著還有一個是需要我們公共工程委會也必須要積極去面對而且要跨部會去探討是什麼我們氣候變遷因應法這個在112年修法過後立法了應該這樣講那立法了之後我們要\n\n3\n00:00:44,665 --> 00:00:45,145\n公共工程委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任\n\n4\n00:01:01,756 --> 00:01:18,573\n還可以更有效率像這一次3月10日到14日我們立法院有一團國會議員團要去日本去參加亞太國會議員聯合會的第52屆的會員代表大會但事實上這一次大會它的主題也是什麼\n\n5\n00:01:19,273 --> 00:01:46,435\n也是我們的氣候變遷的這個環境之下未來我們所有這個跨國際之間的一些的一個因應大家要互相交流那我們今天當然是聚焦在國內的公共工程那我就要想要請教這個主委在氣候變遷因應法三讀通過之前呢我就在你們的網路上有爬書到我們過去有所謂的政策白皮書然後呢98到102年有找到一個\n\n6\n00:01:48,336 --> 00:01:48,476\n委員會主任\n\n7\n00:02:13,878 --> 00:02:39,436\n顧算的編列手冊的總則裡面原則性的有開始在做開始在進步可是我就必須要問主委這個原則性的東西我跟你講還是讓我們基層的第一線的執行的公務人員或是地方政府很難辦為什麼我們必須要去了解第一個我們目前可以做探檢核或是探足機的第三方驗證單會有哪些\n\n8\n00:02:42,086 --> 00:03:02,583\n這是一個我們必須要去面對的問題你不能只公布一個原則結果呢你根本找不到你知道我們一年有多少萬件的公共工程在進行主委你知道嗎4萬件那你要求我們在1億元以上的公共工程都必須要做探檢和\n\n9\n00:03:03,544 --> 00:03:23,892\n去爬梳他們所有的探足機那誰來做這第三方驗證單位有哪些這個有沒有揭露公開資訊讓所有的各地方政府也好各行政單位也好執行單位跟所謂的業界包商大家都能夠找得到這是專業的問題第二個\n\n10\n00:03:28,035 --> 00:03:41,892\n我們公共工程委員會在這一方面還必須要求什麼各行政機關要去訂定檢核機制跟檢探目標那現在我看到你們有訂了原則都訂了指引也講了但是呢我們的進度\n\n11\n00:03:44,793 --> 00:04:12,291\n我們的進度你有要求各行政單位要提進度跟時程嗎?我不知道因為我在任何的資料上我看不到第三個各部會這個是專業的問題各部會各單位有所謂的探檢核的專業人員嗎?第一線上執行的因為我看到後面等一下為什麼我要講這個工程採購的時候你要求第一線的這些公務人員在辦的時候你要求他怎麼檢核他怎麼落實\n\n12\n00:04:14,993 --> 00:04:43,410\n他完全沒有經驗沒有背景沒有相關的專業那我想當然的揣測啦就只好去委外啦那委外就會回到我剛剛講的那個業界能夠做的單位有哪些單位能量足嗎第4個除了我們自己行政部門要要求自己要做之外那我們發報出去了之後產業界又是如何在執行\n\n13\n00:04:45,009 --> 00:04:46,503\n這些都是問題,主委你有沒有想過?\n\n14\n00:04:48,501 --> 00:05:14,289\n謝謝委員的提醒我覺得碳排的問題是比較先進的一個立法跟趨勢的做法主委其實不是先進我剛剛給你看我們立法之前你從98年就開始有在做了有一些資訊來甚至觀念上的一個在要求了有一些\n\n15\n00:05:14,969 --> 00:05:19,871\n公共工程委員會必須要更進一步去做的是如何連結公共工程裡面看含量的估算的標準\n\n16\n00:05:43,061 --> 00:05:54,890\n又是如何?剛剛林俊憲委員有提到一點啦他說現在環境部確實有針對幾項比較大項的有所謂的這個碳估算的一個類似標準\n\n17\n00:05:56,189 --> 00:06:16,034\n但是公共工程委員會有嗎?我看到新聞是說首波是鋼筋業、水泥業要先來做因為他們也已經正在做甚至走在我們行政部門之前端那我們現在要如何加強跟他們溝通我再回到上一頁我必須要講\n\n18\n00:06:17,254 --> 00:06:44,840\n為什麼提到這個如果我們的碳含量的估算標準是我們公共工程委員會跟環境部可以好好的做下來來一項一項的來把它講清楚列清楚而且寫清楚那未來你按照規劃你今年起所有政府電子採購網上面要新增一個減碳的欄位因為你強制部會要去填寫新建工程你要先預估碳含量\n\n19\n00:06:45,740 --> 00:07:03,035\n我說這沒有填就沒有辦法完成採購程序也沒有辦法去取得所謂的工程的物料但是我現在就要回到說你要這個第一線執行的公務人員去填這個減碳的這個欄位他怎麼填?他怎麼下手去填?又委外?是不是?如果又委外可以嗎?\n\n20\n00:07:14,616 --> 00:07:14,776\n這個部分我聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽\n\n21\n00:07:33,925 --> 00:07:55,847\n我們會來做出一套接一個換算的一個...你說按照規劃今年起所有政府電子採購網都將新增減碳欄位強制不會填寫新建工程預估碳含量如果沒有填沒有辦法完成採購程序\n\n22\n00:07:58,072 --> 00:08:25,444\n甚至會影響到工程物料的取得好如果按照你的規劃的話那想必你已經有一套系統SOP來告訴各政府單位第一線的執行人員在電子採購網上如果他有新建工程他必須要去填這個東西問題是怎麼填誰來填我了解委員的意思我們會把它來做規劃所以現在有規劃了嗎正在進行\n\n23\n00:08:26,118 --> 00:08:27,919\n現在進行,所以沒有細節現在目前是一個宣導的階段不能這樣說啦主委你現在這樣說,我覺得\n\n24\n00:08:37,233 --> 00:08:39,914\n你都已經先公開宣布了這件事了\n\n25\n00:09:07,103 --> 00:09:09,649\n結果我現在問你第一個怎麼填誰來填有規劃嗎\n\n26\n00:09:16,069 --> 00:09:40,512\n有這樣子的專業人員嗎?有嗎?來,誰可以回答?報告委員,我們目前的規劃是這樣那從現在開始到20...就是116年都是在一個過渡期那目前呢我們的資料庫已經正在驗測中大概預估今年6月開放給廠商來舔那這個廠商是什麼廠商呢?我們會分批有比較重要的往\n\n27\n00:09:41,712 --> 00:10:05,668\n愈來愈細節來做,所以第一批碳排最大的就是鋼筋說明這些副主委你講的不是我的問題喔我講的是第一個問題你說所有政府部門的電子採購網要新增減碳欄位強制部會各單位填寫新建工程要先預估碳含量是\n\n28\n00:10:07,099 --> 00:10:16,414\n那我就請教你我剛剛的問題是這個表示這是由我們政府部門公務人員要填寫的所以我才問說第一個誰來填第二個誰來寫第三個誰來估\n\n29\n00:10:19,306 --> 00:10:43,502\n是,這就正如我們剛剛主委講的我們會從方案設計開始做所以一開始所以現在還沒有設計就對了不是不是我是說設計階段工程的設計階段所以工程設計階段裡面它最重要是建材建材占80%所以呢我們會有一個建材的探強度資料庫讓他去乘以他所使用的數量看看你會不會設計的方法來減少我們所使用的數量\n\n30\n00:10:44,342 --> 00:11:12,770\n可是你們公告的宣布說強制部會來填寫不是廠商業者填寫不是設計的廠商來填寫我們會有一個那個計算的那個模型供我們現在建築類我們目前正在跟內政部的建業所合作他會有一個模型供他們來使用那這個模型要多久能夠產生我們正在努力中大概今年一定會上路所以今年6月來得及你說的上路嗎\n\n31\n00:11:14,117 --> 00:11:36,675\n第一階段的建材的部分一定會上路然後再過來就是計算模型而且這個建材的部分建材原料八八重乘滿重齁你們怎麼去分別類來做估算?第二個,你們剛剛郡縣委員有提到跟我相同的點那各個工程的相關物料製成裡面的碳盤廠的資料的資料庫的建立這個你們能夠建立嗎?\n\n32\n00:11:37,692 --> 00:12:00,122\n報告我們目前的碳排資料庫是由廠商經過14067跟環境部的PCR所以我現在跟你講喔副主委包括你要跟主委報告清楚有兩件事喔一個是我們自己行政部門自己的事情喔一個是產業界業者的事情喔那我接下來要講你們公布說兩年之內八大類工程要先推那兩年做得到嗎\n\n33\n00:12:07,092 --> 00:12:30,672\n8大公共工程包括建築、軌道、水利設施、橋樑等這些都是重大工程而且是民生重大的工程那兩年的時間內你要把這些而且每一件大工程裡面它所包含的連結的產業非常的多那你說兩年內要做到做得到嗎\n\n34\n00:12:31,232 --> 00:12:35,054\n我建議除了我們政府部門要跨部會之間去協調這件事之外我覺得也要加強產業界的溝通跟輔導這是一定要做的最後的最後\n\n35\n00:12:56,755 --> 00:13:20,971\n有一個是你們可以先做的,最簡單的我們台灣銀行有一個共同供應契約平台這個你們都知道嘛,所有各大小的行政部門要做所謂的設備的採購的時候都會上這個共同供應的契約平台這裡面我覺得你們先可以做什麼先從小的做起,先從他們的減碳量的一個資訊的揭露先做起\n\n36\n00:13:22,032 --> 00:13:46,004\n在這個平台上面﹖各大的行政單位都要在這個平台採購﹖如果要推動減碳﹖在世間先走﹖你的八大類我也期待兩年之內﹖你們真的能做得到指引跟輔導好不好是這樣子我覺得要落實啦﹖要務實啦﹖才能夠推動政策向前走好不好謝謝好謝謝何委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3432\t8185\t謝謝主席昆喆召委我們請主委要不要喝口水沒關係我可以等\n15603\t32656\t主委好剛剛盧委員講的那一件事情在實務面上事實上是這幾年真的很嚴重的情況我覺得公共工程委員會真的是要馬上立即即刻的去跨部會解決那接著還有一個是需要我們公共工程委會也必須要積極去面對而且要跨部會去探討是什麼我們氣候變遷因應法這個在112年修法過後立法了應該這樣講那立法了之後我們要\n44665\t45145\t公共工程委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任\n61756\t78573\t還可以更有效率像這一次3月10日到14日我們立法院有一團國會議員團要去日本去參加亞太國會議員聯合會的第52屆的會員代表大會但事實上這一次大會它的主題也是什麼\n79273\t106435\t也是我們的氣候變遷的這個環境之下未來我們所有這個跨國際之間的一些的一個因應大家要互相交流那我們今天當然是聚焦在國內的公共工程那我就要想要請教這個主委在氣候變遷因應法三讀通過之前呢我就在你們的網路上有爬書到我們過去有所謂的政策白皮書然後呢98到102年有找到一個\n108336\t108476\t委員會主任\n133878\t159436\t顧算的編列手冊的總則裡面原則性的有開始在做開始在進步可是我就必須要問主委這個原則性的東西我跟你講還是讓我們基層的第一線的執行的公務人員或是地方政府很難辦為什麼我們必須要去了解第一個我們目前可以做探檢核或是探足機的第三方驗證單會有哪些\n162086\t182583\t這是一個我們必須要去面對的問題你不能只公布一個原則結果呢你根本找不到你知道我們一年有多少萬件的公共工程在進行主委你知道嗎4萬件那你要求我們在1億元以上的公共工程都必須要做探檢和\n183544\t203892\t去爬梳他們所有的探足機那誰來做這第三方驗證單位有哪些這個有沒有揭露公開資訊讓所有的各地方政府也好各行政單位也好執行單位跟所謂的業界包商大家都能夠找得到這是專業的問題第二個\n208035\t221892\t我們公共工程委員會在這一方面還必須要求什麼各行政機關要去訂定檢核機制跟檢探目標那現在我看到你們有訂了原則都訂了指引也講了但是呢我們的進度\n224793\t252291\t我們的進度你有要求各行政單位要提進度跟時程嗎?我不知道因為我在任何的資料上我看不到第三個各部會這個是專業的問題各部會各單位有所謂的探檢核的專業人員嗎?第一線上執行的因為我看到後面等一下為什麼我要講這個工程採購的時候你要求第一線的這些公務人員在辦的時候你要求他怎麼檢核他怎麼落實\n254993\t283410\t他完全沒有經驗沒有背景沒有相關的專業那我想當然的揣測啦就只好去委外啦那委外就會回到我剛剛講的那個業界能夠做的單位有哪些單位能量足嗎第4個除了我們自己行政部門要要求自己要做之外那我們發報出去了之後產業界又是如何在執行\n285009\t286503\t這些都是問題,主委你有沒有想過?\n288501\t314289\t謝謝委員的提醒我覺得碳排的問題是比較先進的一個立法跟趨勢的做法主委其實不是先進我剛剛給你看我們立法之前你從98年就開始有在做了有一些資訊來甚至觀念上的一個在要求了有一些\n314969\t319871\t公共工程委員會必須要更進一步去做的是如何連結公共工程裡面看含量的估算的標準\n343061\t354890\t又是如何?剛剛林俊憲委員有提到一點啦他說現在環境部確實有針對幾項比較大項的有所謂的這個碳估算的一個類似標準\n356189\t376034\t但是公共工程委員會有嗎?我看到新聞是說首波是鋼筋業、水泥業要先來做因為他們也已經正在做甚至走在我們行政部門之前端那我們現在要如何加強跟他們溝通我再回到上一頁我必須要講\n377254\t404840\t為什麼提到這個如果我們的碳含量的估算標準是我們公共工程委員會跟環境部可以好好的做下來來一項一項的來把它講清楚列清楚而且寫清楚那未來你按照規劃你今年起所有政府電子採購網上面要新增一個減碳的欄位因為你強制部會要去填寫新建工程你要先預估碳含量\n405740\t423035\t我說 這沒有填就沒有辦法完成採購程序也沒有辦法去取得所謂的工程的物料但是我現在就要回到說你要這個第一線執行的公務人員去填這個減碳的這個欄位他怎麼填?他怎麼下手去填?又委外?是不是?如果又委外可以嗎?\n434616\t434776\t這個部分我聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽\n453925\t475847\t我們會來做出一套接一個換算的一個...你說按照規劃今年起所有政府電子採購網都將新增減碳欄位強制不會填寫新建工程預估碳含量如果沒有填沒有辦法完成採購程序\n478072\t505444\t甚至會影響到工程物料的取得好如果按照你的規劃的話那想必你已經有一套系統SOP來告訴各政府單位第一線的執行人員在電子採購網上如果他有新建工程他必須要去填這個東西問題是怎麼填誰來填我了解委員的意思我們會把它來做規劃所以現在有規劃了嗎正在進行\n506118\t507919\t現在進行,所以沒有細節現在目前是一個宣導的階段不能這樣說啦主委你現在這樣說,我覺得\n517233\t519914\t你都已經先公開宣布了這件事了\n547103\t549649\t結果我現在問你第一個怎麼填誰來填有規劃嗎\n556069\t580512\t有這樣子的專業人員嗎?有嗎?來,誰可以回答?報告委員,我們目前的規劃是這樣那從現在開始到20...就是116年都是在一個過渡期那目前呢我們的資料庫已經正在驗測中大概預估今年6月開放給廠商來舔那這個廠商是什麼廠商呢?我們會分批有比較重要的往\n581712\t605668\t愈來愈細節來做,所以第一批碳排最大的就是鋼筋說明這些副主委你講的不是我的問題喔我講的是第一個問題你說所有政府部門的電子採購網要新增減碳欄位強制部會各單位填寫新建工程要先預估碳含量是\n607099\t616414\t那我就請教你我剛剛的問題是這個表示這是由我們政府部門公務人員要填寫的所以我才問說第一個誰來填第二個誰來寫第三個誰來估\n619306\t643502\t是,這就正如我們剛剛主委講的我們會從方案設計開始做所以一開始所以現在還沒有設計就對了不是不是我是說設計階段工程的設計階段所以工程設計階段裡面它最重要是建材建材占80%所以呢我們會有一個建材的探強度資料庫讓他去乘以他所使用的數量看看你會不會設計的方法來減少我們所使用的數量\n644342\t672770\t可是你們公告的宣布說強制部會來填寫不是廠商業者填寫不是設計的廠商來填寫我們會有一個那個計算的那個模型供我們現在建築類我們目前正在跟內政部的建業所合作他會有一個模型供他們來使用那這個模型要多久能夠產生我們正在努力中大概今年一定會上路所以今年6月來得及你說的上路嗎\n674117\t696675\t第一階段的建材的部分一定會上路然後再過來就是計算模型而且這個建材的部分建材原料八八重乘滿重齁你們怎麼去分別類來做估算?第二個,你們剛剛郡縣委員有提到跟我相同的點那各個工程的相關物料製成裡面的碳盤廠的資料的資料庫的建立這個你們能夠建立嗎?\n697692\t720122\t報告我們目前的碳排資料庫是由廠商經過14067跟環境部的PCR所以我現在跟你講喔副主委包括你要跟主委報告清楚有兩件事喔一個是我們自己行政部門自己的事情喔一個是產業界業者的事情喔那我接下來要講你們公布說兩年之內八大類工程要先推那兩年做得到嗎\n727092\t750672\t8大公共工程包括建築、軌道、水利設施、橋樑等這些都是重大工程而且是民生重大的工程那兩年的時間內你要把這些而且每一件大工程裡面它所包含的連結的產業非常的多那你說兩年內要做到做得到嗎\n751232\t755054\t我建議除了我們政府部門要跨部會之間去協調這件事之外我覺得也要加強產業界的溝通跟輔導這是一定要做的最後的最後\n776755\t800971\t有一個是你們可以先做的,最簡單的我們台灣銀行有一個共同供應契約平台這個你們都知道嘛,所有各大小的行政部門要做所謂的設備的採購的時候都會上這個共同供應的契約平台這裡面我覺得你們先可以做什麼先從小的做起,先從他們的減碳量的一個資訊的揭露先做起\n802032\t826004\t在這個平台上面﹖各大的行政單位都要在這個平台採購﹖如果要推動減碳﹖在世間先走﹖你的八大類我也期待兩年之內﹖你們真的能做得到指引跟輔導好不好是這樣子我覺得要落實啦﹖要務實啦﹖才能夠推動政策向前走好不好謝謝好謝謝何委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席昆喆召委我們請主委要不要喝口水沒關係我可以等\n主委好剛剛盧委員講的那一件事情在實務面上事實上是這幾年真的很嚴重的情況我覺得公共工程委員會真的是要馬上立即即刻的去跨部會解決那接著還有一個是需要我們公共工程委會也必須要積極去面對而且要跨部會去探討是什麼我們氣候變遷因應法這個在112年修法過後立法了應該這樣講那立法了之後我們要\n公共工程委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任\n還可以更有效率像這一次3月10日到14日我們立法院有一團國會議員團要去日本去參加亞太國會議員聯合會的第52屆的會員代表大會但事實上這一次大會它的主題也是什麼\n也是我們的氣候變遷的這個環境之下未來我們所有這個跨國際之間的一些的一個因應大家要互相交流那我們今天當然是聚焦在國內的公共工程那我就要想要請教這個主委在氣候變遷因應法三讀通過之前呢我就在你們的網路上有爬書到我們過去有所謂的政策白皮書然後呢98到102年有找到一個\n委員會主任\n顧算的編列手冊的總則裡面原則性的有開始在做開始在進步可是我就必須要問主委這個原則性的東西我跟你講還是讓我們基層的第一線的執行的公務人員或是地方政府很難辦為什麼我們必須要去了解第一個我們目前可以做探檢核或是探足機的第三方驗證單會有哪些\n這是一個我們必須要去面對的問題你不能只公布一個原則結果呢你根本找不到你知道我們一年有多少萬件的公共工程在進行主委你知道嗎4萬件那你要求我們在1億元以上的公共工程都必須要做探檢和\n去爬梳他們所有的探足機那誰來做這第三方驗證單位有哪些這個有沒有揭露公開資訊讓所有的各地方政府也好各行政單位也好執行單位跟所謂的業界包商大家都能夠找得到這是專業的問題第二個\n我們公共工程委員會在這一方面還必須要求什麼各行政機關要去訂定檢核機制跟檢探目標那現在我看到你們有訂了原則都訂了指引也講了但是呢我們的進度\n我們的進度你有要求各行政單位要提進度跟時程嗎?我不知道因為我在任何的資料上我看不到第三個各部會這個是專業的問題各部會各單位有所謂的探檢核的專業人員嗎?第一線上執行的因為我看到後面等一下為什麼我要講這個工程採購的時候你要求第一線的這些公務人員在辦的時候你要求他怎麼檢核他怎麼落實\n他完全沒有經驗沒有背景沒有相關的專業那我想當然的揣測啦就只好去委外啦那委外就會回到我剛剛講的那個業界能夠做的單位有哪些單位能量足嗎第4個除了我們自己行政部門要要求自己要做之外那我們發報出去了之後產業界又是如何在執行\n這些都是問題,主委你有沒有想過?\n謝謝委員的提醒我覺得碳排的問題是比較先進的一個立法跟趨勢的做法主委其實不是先進我剛剛給你看我們立法之前你從98年就開始有在做了有一些資訊來甚至觀念上的一個在要求了有一些\n公共工程委員會必須要更進一步去做的是如何連結公共工程裡面看含量的估算的標準\n又是如何?剛剛林俊憲委員有提到一點啦他說現在環境部確實有針對幾項比較大項的有所謂的這個碳估算的一個類似標準\n但是公共工程委員會有嗎?我看到新聞是說首波是鋼筋業、水泥業要先來做因為他們也已經正在做甚至走在我們行政部門之前端那我們現在要如何加強跟他們溝通我再回到上一頁我必須要講\n為什麼提到這個如果我們的碳含量的估算標準是我們公共工程委員會跟環境部可以好好的做下來來一項一項的來把它講清楚列清楚而且寫清楚那未來你按照規劃你今年起所有政府電子採購網上面要新增一個減碳的欄位因為你強制部會要去填寫新建工程你要先預估碳含量\n我說 這沒有填就沒有辦法完成採購程序也沒有辦法去取得所謂的工程的物料但是我現在就要回到說你要這個第一線執行的公務人員去填這個減碳的這個欄位他怎麼填?他怎麼下手去填?又委外?是不是?如果又委外可以嗎?\n這個部分我聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽\n我們會來做出一套接一個換算的一個...你說按照規劃今年起所有政府電子採購網都將新增減碳欄位強制不會填寫新建工程預估碳含量如果沒有填沒有辦法完成採購程序\n甚至會影響到工程物料的取得好如果按照你的規劃的話那想必你已經有一套系統SOP來告訴各政府單位第一線的執行人員在電子採購網上如果他有新建工程他必須要去填這個東西問題是怎麼填誰來填我了解委員的意思我們會把它來做規劃所以現在有規劃了嗎正在進行\n現在進行,所以沒有細節現在目前是一個宣導的階段不能這樣說啦主委你現在這樣說,我覺得\n你都已經先公開宣布了這件事了\n結果我現在問你第一個怎麼填誰來填有規劃嗎\n有這樣子的專業人員嗎?有嗎?來,誰可以回答?報告委員,我們目前的規劃是這樣那從現在開始到20...就是116年都是在一個過渡期那目前呢我們的資料庫已經正在驗測中大概預估今年6月開放給廠商來舔那這個廠商是什麼廠商呢?我們會分批有比較重要的往\n愈來愈細節來做,所以第一批碳排最大的就是鋼筋說明這些副主委你講的不是我的問題喔我講的是第一個問題你說所有政府部門的電子採購網要新增減碳欄位強制部會各單位填寫新建工程要先預估碳含量是\n那我就請教你我剛剛的問題是這個表示這是由我們政府部門公務人員要填寫的所以我才問說第一個誰來填第二個誰來寫第三個誰來估\n是,這就正如我們剛剛主委講的我們會從方案設計開始做所以一開始所以現在還沒有設計就對了不是不是我是說設計階段工程的設計階段所以工程設計階段裡面它最重要是建材建材占80%所以呢我們會有一個建材的探強度資料庫讓他去乘以他所使用的數量看看你會不會設計的方法來減少我們所使用的數量\n可是你們公告的宣布說強制部會來填寫不是廠商業者填寫不是設計的廠商來填寫我們會有一個那個計算的那個模型供我們現在建築類我們目前正在跟內政部的建業所合作他會有一個模型供他們來使用那這個模型要多久能夠產生我們正在努力中大概今年一定會上路所以今年6月來得及你說的上路嗎\n第一階段的建材的部分一定會上路然後再過來就是計算模型而且這個建材的部分建材原料八八重乘滿重齁你們怎麼去分別類來做估算?第二個,你們剛剛郡縣委員有提到跟我相同的點那各個工程的相關物料製成裡面的碳盤廠的資料的資料庫的建立這個你們能夠建立嗎?\n報告我們目前的碳排資料庫是由廠商經過14067跟環境部的PCR所以我現在跟你講喔副主委包括你要跟主委報告清楚有兩件事喔一個是我們自己行政部門自己的事情喔一個是產業界業者的事情喔那我接下來要講你們公布說兩年之內八大類工程要先推那兩年做得到嗎\n8大公共工程包括建築、軌道、水利設施、橋樑等這些都是重大工程而且是民生重大的工程那兩年的時間內你要把這些而且每一件大工程裡面它所包含的連結的產業非常的多那你說兩年內要做到做得到嗎\n我建議除了我們政府部門要跨部會之間去協調這件事之外我覺得也要加強產業界的溝通跟輔導這是一定要做的最後的最後\n有一個是你們可以先做的,最簡單的我們台灣銀行有一個共同供應契約平台這個你們都知道嘛,所有各大小的行政部門要做所謂的設備的採購的時候都會上這個共同供應的契約平台這裡面我覺得你們先可以做什麼先從小的做起,先從他們的減碳量的一個資訊的揭露先做起\n在這個平台上面﹖各大的行政單位都要在這個平台採購﹖如果要推動減碳﹖在世間先走﹖你的八大類我也期待兩年之內﹖你們真的能做得到指引跟輔導好不好是這樣子我覺得要落實啦﹖要務實啦﹖才能夠推動政策向前走好不好謝謝好謝謝何委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.432 --> 00:08.185\n謝謝主席昆喆召委我們請主委要不要喝口水沒關係我可以等\n\n00:15.603 --> 00:32.656\n主委好剛剛盧委員講的那一件事情在實務面上事實上是這幾年真的很嚴重的情況我覺得公共工程委員會真的是要馬上立即即刻的去跨部會解決那接著還有一個是需要我們公共工程委會也必須要積極去面對而且要跨部會去探討是什麼我們氣候變遷因應法這個在112年修法過後立法了應該這樣講那立法了之後我們要\n\n00:44.665 --> 00:45.145\n公共工程委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任\n\n01:01.756 --> 01:18.573\n還可以更有效率像這一次3月10日到14日我們立法院有一團國會議員團要去日本去參加亞太國會議員聯合會的第52屆的會員代表大會但事實上這一次大會它的主題也是什麼\n\n01:19.273 --> 01:46.435\n也是我們的氣候變遷的這個環境之下未來我們所有這個跨國際之間的一些的一個因應大家要互相交流那我們今天當然是聚焦在國內的公共工程那我就要想要請教這個主委在氣候變遷因應法三讀通過之前呢我就在你們的網路上有爬書到我們過去有所謂的政策白皮書然後呢98到102年有找到一個\n\n01:48.336 --> 01:48.476\n委員會主任\n\n02:13.878 --> 02:39.436\n顧算的編列手冊的總則裡面原則性的有開始在做開始在進步可是我就必須要問主委這個原則性的東西我跟你講還是讓我們基層的第一線的執行的公務人員或是地方政府很難辦為什麼我們必須要去了解第一個我們目前可以做探檢核或是探足機的第三方驗證單會有哪些\n\n02:42.086 --> 03:02.583\n這是一個我們必須要去面對的問題你不能只公布一個原則結果呢你根本找不到你知道我們一年有多少萬件的公共工程在進行主委你知道嗎4萬件那你要求我們在1億元以上的公共工程都必須要做探檢和\n\n03:03.544 --> 03:23.892\n去爬梳他們所有的探足機那誰來做這第三方驗證單位有哪些這個有沒有揭露公開資訊讓所有的各地方政府也好各行政單位也好執行單位跟所謂的業界包商大家都能夠找得到這是專業的問題第二個\n\n03:28.035 --> 03:41.892\n我們公共工程委員會在這一方面還必須要求什麼各行政機關要去訂定檢核機制跟檢探目標那現在我看到你們有訂了原則都訂了指引也講了但是呢我們的進度\n\n03:44.793 --> 04:12.291\n我們的進度你有要求各行政單位要提進度跟時程嗎?我不知道因為我在任何的資料上我看不到第三個各部會這個是專業的問題各部會各單位有所謂的探檢核的專業人員嗎?第一線上執行的因為我看到後面等一下為什麼我要講這個工程採購的時候你要求第一線的這些公務人員在辦的時候你要求他怎麼檢核他怎麼落實\n\n04:14.993 --> 04:43.410\n他完全沒有經驗沒有背景沒有相關的專業那我想當然的揣測啦就只好去委外啦那委外就會回到我剛剛講的那個業界能夠做的單位有哪些單位能量足嗎第4個除了我們自己行政部門要要求自己要做之外那我們發報出去了之後產業界又是如何在執行\n\n04:45.009 --> 04:46.503\n這些都是問題,主委你有沒有想過?\n\n04:48.501 --> 05:14.289\n謝謝委員的提醒我覺得碳排的問題是比較先進的一個立法跟趨勢的做法主委其實不是先進我剛剛給你看我們立法之前你從98年就開始有在做了有一些資訊來甚至觀念上的一個在要求了有一些\n\n05:14.969 --> 05:19.871\n公共工程委員會必須要更進一步去做的是如何連結公共工程裡面看含量的估算的標準\n\n05:43.061 --> 05:54.890\n又是如何?剛剛林俊憲委員有提到一點啦他說現在環境部確實有針對幾項比較大項的有所謂的這個碳估算的一個類似標準\n\n05:56.189 --> 06:16.034\n但是公共工程委員會有嗎?我看到新聞是說首波是鋼筋業、水泥業要先來做因為他們也已經正在做甚至走在我們行政部門之前端那我們現在要如何加強跟他們溝通我再回到上一頁我必須要講\n\n06:17.254 --> 06:44.840\n為什麼提到這個如果我們的碳含量的估算標準是我們公共工程委員會跟環境部可以好好的做下來來一項一項的來把它講清楚列清楚而且寫清楚那未來你按照規劃你今年起所有政府電子採購網上面要新增一個減碳的欄位因為你強制部會要去填寫新建工程你要先預估碳含量\n\n06:45.740 --> 07:03.035\n我說這沒有填就沒有辦法完成採購程序也沒有辦法去取得所謂的工程的物料但是我現在就要回到說你要這個第一線執行的公務人員去填這個減碳的這個欄位他怎麼填?他怎麼下手去填?又委外?是不是?如果又委外可以嗎?\n\n07:14.616 --> 07:14.776\n這個部分我聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽\n\n07:33.925 --> 07:55.847\n我們會來做出一套接一個換算的一個...你說按照規劃今年起所有政府電子採購網都將新增減碳欄位強制不會填寫新建工程預估碳含量如果沒有填沒有辦法完成採購程序\n\n07:58.072 --> 08:25.444\n甚至會影響到工程物料的取得好如果按照你的規劃的話那想必你已經有一套系統SOP來告訴各政府單位第一線的執行人員在電子採購網上如果他有新建工程他必須要去填這個東西問題是怎麼填誰來填我了解委員的意思我們會把它來做規劃所以現在有規劃了嗎正在進行\n\n08:26.118 --> 08:27.919\n現在進行,所以沒有細節現在目前是一個宣導的階段不能這樣說啦主委你現在這樣說,我覺得\n\n08:37.233 --> 08:39.914\n你都已經先公開宣布了這件事了\n\n09:07.103 --> 09:09.649\n結果我現在問你第一個怎麼填誰來填有規劃嗎\n\n09:16.069 --> 09:40.512\n有這樣子的專業人員嗎?有嗎?來,誰可以回答?報告委員,我們目前的規劃是這樣那從現在開始到20...就是116年都是在一個過渡期那目前呢我們的資料庫已經正在驗測中大概預估今年6月開放給廠商來舔那這個廠商是什麼廠商呢?我們會分批有比較重要的往\n\n09:41.712 --> 10:05.668\n愈來愈細節來做,所以第一批碳排最大的就是鋼筋說明這些副主委你講的不是我的問題喔我講的是第一個問題你說所有政府部門的電子採購網要新增減碳欄位強制部會各單位填寫新建工程要先預估碳含量是\n\n10:07.099 --> 10:16.414\n那我就請教你我剛剛的問題是這個表示這是由我們政府部門公務人員要填寫的所以我才問說第一個誰來填第二個誰來寫第三個誰來估\n\n10:19.306 --> 10:43.502\n是,這就正如我們剛剛主委講的我們會從方案設計開始做所以一開始所以現在還沒有設計就對了不是不是我是說設計階段工程的設計階段所以工程設計階段裡面它最重要是建材建材占80%所以呢我們會有一個建材的探強度資料庫讓他去乘以他所使用的數量看看你會不會設計的方法來減少我們所使用的數量\n\n10:44.342 --> 11:12.770\n可是你們公告的宣布說強制部會來填寫不是廠商業者填寫不是設計的廠商來填寫我們會有一個那個計算的那個模型供我們現在建築類我們目前正在跟內政部的建業所合作他會有一個模型供他們來使用那這個模型要多久能夠產生我們正在努力中大概今年一定會上路所以今年6月來得及你說的上路嗎\n\n11:14.117 --> 11:36.675\n第一階段的建材的部分一定會上路然後再過來就是計算模型而且這個建材的部分建材原料八八重乘滿重齁你們怎麼去分別類來做估算?第二個,你們剛剛郡縣委員有提到跟我相同的點那各個工程的相關物料製成裡面的碳盤廠的資料的資料庫的建立這個你們能夠建立嗎?\n\n11:37.692 --> 12:00.122\n報告我們目前的碳排資料庫是由廠商經過14067跟環境部的PCR所以我現在跟你講喔副主委包括你要跟主委報告清楚有兩件事喔一個是我們自己行政部門自己的事情喔一個是產業界業者的事情喔那我接下來要講你們公布說兩年之內八大類工程要先推那兩年做得到嗎\n\n12:07.092 --> 12:30.672\n8大公共工程包括建築、軌道、水利設施、橋樑等這些都是重大工程而且是民生重大的工程那兩年的時間內你要把這些而且每一件大工程裡面它所包含的連結的產業非常的多那你說兩年內要做到做得到嗎\n\n12:31.232 --> 12:35.054\n我建議除了我們政府部門要跨部會之間去協調這件事之外我覺得也要加強產業界的溝通跟輔導這是一定要做的最後的最後\n\n12:56.755 --> 13:20.971\n有一個是你們可以先做的,最簡單的我們台灣銀行有一個共同供應契約平台這個你們都知道嘛,所有各大小的行政部門要做所謂的設備的採購的時候都會上這個共同供應的契約平台這裡面我覺得你們先可以做什麼先從小的做起,先從他們的減碳量的一個資訊的揭露先做起\n\n13:22.032 --> 13:46.004\n在這個平台上面﹖各大的行政單位都要在這個平台採購﹖如果要推動減碳﹖在世間先走﹖你的八大類我也期待兩年之內﹖你們真的能做得到指引跟輔導好不好是這樣子我覺得要落實啦﹖要務實啦﹖才能夠推動政策向前走好不好謝謝好謝謝何委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.432,"end":8.185,"text":"謝謝主席昆喆召委我們請主委要不要喝口水沒關係我可以等"},{"start":15.603,"end":32.656,"text":"主委好剛剛盧委員講的那一件事情在實務面上事實上是這幾年真的很嚴重的情況我覺得公共工程委員會真的是要馬上立即即刻的去跨部會解決那接著還有一個是需要我們公共工程委會也必須要積極去面對而且要跨部會去探討是什麼我們氣候變遷因應法這個在112年修法過後立法了應該這樣講那立法了之後我們要"},{"start":44.665,"end":45.145,"text":"公共工程委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":61.756,"end":78.573,"text":"還可以更有效率像這一次3月10日到14日我們立法院有一團國會議員團要去日本去參加亞太國會議員聯合會的第52屆的會員代表大會但事實上這一次大會它的主題也是什麼"},{"start":79.273,"end":106.435,"text":"也是我們的氣候變遷的這個環境之下未來我們所有這個跨國際之間的一些的一個因應大家要互相交流那我們今天當然是聚焦在國內的公共工程那我就要想要請教這個主委在氣候變遷因應法三讀通過之前呢我就在你們的網路上有爬書到我們過去有所謂的政策白皮書然後呢98到102年有找到一個"},{"start":108.336,"end":108.476,"text":"委員會主任"},{"start":133.878,"end":159.436,"text":"顧算的編列手冊的總則裡面原則性的有開始在做開始在進步可是我就必須要問主委這個原則性的東西我跟你講還是讓我們基層的第一線的執行的公務人員或是地方政府很難辦為什麼我們必須要去了解第一個我們目前可以做探檢核或是探足機的第三方驗證單會有哪些"},{"start":162.086,"end":182.583,"text":"這是一個我們必須要去面對的問題你不能只公布一個原則結果呢你根本找不到你知道我們一年有多少萬件的公共工程在進行主委你知道嗎4萬件那你要求我們在1億元以上的公共工程都必須要做探檢和"},{"start":183.544,"end":203.892,"text":"去爬梳他們所有的探足機那誰來做這第三方驗證單位有哪些這個有沒有揭露公開資訊讓所有的各地方政府也好各行政單位也好執行單位跟所謂的業界包商大家都能夠找得到這是專業的問題第二個"},{"start":208.035,"end":221.892,"text":"我們公共工程委員會在這一方面還必須要求什麼各行政機關要去訂定檢核機制跟檢探目標那現在我看到你們有訂了原則都訂了指引也講了但是呢我們的進度"},{"start":224.793,"end":252.291,"text":"我們的進度你有要求各行政單位要提進度跟時程嗎?我不知道因為我在任何的資料上我看不到第三個各部會這個是專業的問題各部會各單位有所謂的探檢核的專業人員嗎?第一線上執行的因為我看到後面等一下為什麼我要講這個工程採購的時候你要求第一線的這些公務人員在辦的時候你要求他怎麼檢核他怎麼落實"},{"start":254.993,"end":283.41,"text":"他完全沒有經驗沒有背景沒有相關的專業那我想當然的揣測啦就只好去委外啦那委外就會回到我剛剛講的那個業界能夠做的單位有哪些單位能量足嗎第4個除了我們自己行政部門要要求自己要做之外那我們發報出去了之後產業界又是如何在執行"},{"start":285.009,"end":286.503,"text":"這些都是問題,主委你有沒有想過?"},{"start":288.501,"end":314.289,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒我覺得碳排的問題是比較先進的一個立法跟趨勢的做法主委其實不是先進我剛剛給你看我們立法之前你從98年就開始有在做了有一些資訊來甚至觀念上的一個在要求了有一些"},{"start":314.969,"end":319.871,"text":"公共工程委員會必須要更進一步去做的是如何連結公共工程裡面看含量的估算的標準"},{"start":343.061,"end":354.89,"text":"又是如何?剛剛林俊憲委員有提到一點啦他說現在環境部確實有針對幾項比較大項的有所謂的這個碳估算的一個類似標準"},{"start":356.189,"end":376.034,"text":"但是公共工程委員會有嗎?我看到新聞是說首波是鋼筋業、水泥業要先來做因為他們也已經正在做甚至走在我們行政部門之前端那我們現在要如何加強跟他們溝通我再回到上一頁我必須要講"},{"start":377.254,"end":404.84,"text":"為什麼提到這個如果我們的碳含量的估算標準是我們公共工程委員會跟環境部可以好好的做下來來一項一項的來把它講清楚列清楚而且寫清楚那未來你按照規劃你今年起所有政府電子採購網上面要新增一個減碳的欄位因為你強制部會要去填寫新建工程你要先預估碳含量"},{"start":405.74,"end":423.035,"text":"我說 這沒有填就沒有辦法完成採購程序也沒有辦法去取得所謂的工程的物料但是我現在就要回到說你要這個第一線執行的公務人員去填這個減碳的這個欄位他怎麼填?他怎麼下手去填?又委外?是不是?如果又委外可以嗎?"},{"start":434.616,"end":434.776,"text":"這個部分我聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽"},{"start":453.925,"end":475.847,"text":"我們會來做出一套接一個換算的一個...你說按照規劃今年起所有政府電子採購網都將新增減碳欄位強制不會填寫新建工程預估碳含量如果沒有填沒有辦法完成採購程序"},{"start":478.072,"end":505.444,"text":"甚至會影響到工程物料的取得好如果按照你的規劃的話那想必你已經有一套系統SOP來告訴各政府單位第一線的執行人員在電子採購網上如果他有新建工程他必須要去填這個東西問題是怎麼填誰來填我了解委員的意思我們會把它來做規劃所以現在有規劃了嗎正在進行"},{"start":506.118,"end":507.919,"text":"現在進行,所以沒有細節現在目前是一個宣導的階段不能這樣說啦主委你現在這樣說,我覺得"},{"start":517.233,"end":519.914,"text":"你都已經先公開宣布了這件事了"},{"start":547.103,"end":549.649,"text":"結果我現在問你第一個怎麼填誰來填有規劃嗎"},{"start":556.069,"end":580.512,"text":"有這樣子的專業人員嗎?有嗎?來,誰可以回答?報告委員,我們目前的規劃是這樣那從現在開始到20...就是116年都是在一個過渡期那目前呢我們的資料庫已經正在驗測中大概預估今年6月開放給廠商來舔那這個廠商是什麼廠商呢?我們會分批有比較重要的往"},{"start":581.712,"end":605.668,"text":"愈來愈細節來做,所以第一批碳排最大的就是鋼筋說明這些副主委你講的不是我的問題喔我講的是第一個問題你說所有政府部門的電子採購網要新增減碳欄位強制部會各單位填寫新建工程要先預估碳含量是"},{"start":607.099,"end":616.414,"text":"那我就請教你我剛剛的問題是這個表示這是由我們政府部門公務人員要填寫的所以我才問說第一個誰來填第二個誰來寫第三個誰來估"},{"start":619.306,"end":643.502,"text":"是,這就正如我們剛剛主委講的我們會從方案設計開始做所以一開始所以現在還沒有設計就對了不是不是我是說設計階段工程的設計階段所以工程設計階段裡面它最重要是建材建材占80%所以呢我們會有一個建材的探強度資料庫讓他去乘以他所使用的數量看看你會不會設計的方法來減少我們所使用的數量"},{"start":644.342,"end":672.77,"text":"可是你們公告的宣布說強制部會來填寫不是廠商業者填寫不是設計的廠商來填寫我們會有一個那個計算的那個模型供我們現在建築類我們目前正在跟內政部的建業所合作他會有一個模型供他們來使用那這個模型要多久能夠產生我們正在努力中大概今年一定會上路所以今年6月來得及你說的上路嗎"},{"start":674.117,"end":696.675,"text":"第一階段的建材的部分一定會上路然後再過來就是計算模型而且這個建材的部分建材原料八八重乘滿重齁你們怎麼去分別類來做估算?第二個,你們剛剛郡縣委員有提到跟我相同的點那各個工程的相關物料製成裡面的碳盤廠的資料的資料庫的建立這個你們能夠建立嗎?"},{"start":697.692,"end":720.122,"text":"報告我們目前的碳排資料庫是由廠商經過14067跟環境部的PCR所以我現在跟你講喔副主委包括你要跟主委報告清楚有兩件事喔一個是我們自己行政部門自己的事情喔一個是產業界業者的事情喔那我接下來要講你們公布說兩年之內八大類工程要先推那兩年做得到嗎"},{"start":727.092,"end":750.672,"text":"8大公共工程包括建築、軌道、水利設施、橋樑等這些都是重大工程而且是民生重大的工程那兩年的時間內你要把這些而且每一件大工程裡面它所包含的連結的產業非常的多那你說兩年內要做到做得到嗎"},{"start":751.232,"end":755.054,"text":"我建議除了我們政府部門要跨部會之間去協調這件事之外我覺得也要加強產業界的溝通跟輔導這是一定要做的最後的最後"},{"start":776.755,"end":800.971,"text":"有一個是你們可以先做的,最簡單的我們台灣銀行有一個共同供應契約平台這個你們都知道嘛,所有各大小的行政部門要做所謂的設備的採購的時候都會上這個共同供應的契約平台這裡面我覺得你們先可以做什麼先從小的做起,先從他們的減碳量的一個資訊的揭露先做起"},{"start":802.032,"end":826.004,"text":"在這個平台上面﹖各大的行政單位都要在這個平台採購﹖如果要推動減碳﹖在世間先走﹖你的八大類我也期待兩年之內﹖你們真的能做得到指引跟輔導好不好是這樣子我覺得要落實啦﹖要務實啦﹖才能夠推動政策向前走好不好謝謝好謝謝何委員"}]}}}}