{"id":149228,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149228","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd8e17a7eef0cd2876e0c93a942a018238f8ba9b0039caa7a61e89c52ab37a9fb15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"10:11:59 - 10:23:19","影片長度":"00:11:20","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":680,"end_time":"2024-03-04T10:23:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T10:11:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":336,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時11分）謝謝主席。有請主委，還有銀行局局長。"],["主席：有請主委以及銀行局局長。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員早！"],["賴委員惠員：主委早！我想今天跟你探討在2005年發生的雙卡風暴，主委，有沒有印象？就是借錢不用利息，結果養出了70萬的卡奴。從1999年萬泰銀行發行喬治瑪莉現金卡以後，因為審核的條件非常的鬆散，所以到了2003年我們就發現了發行現金卡的銀行就高達27家，總卡量竟然達到了250萬張，到了2005年國內的卡奴暴增到70萬人，到了2007年銀行的逾放比率將近5%，每個月打銷的呆帳金額就高達百億元。主委，有沒有印象？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這是我們金融監理的一個重要借鑑。"],["賴委員惠員：是，好。再請問主委，租賃業放款的業務是不是歸金管會來管？"],["黃主任委員天牧：不是。"],["賴委員惠員：不是喔！"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["賴委員惠員：那你認為應不應該由你們來管？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個跟金管會組織條例的定位是不一樣的，因為租賃業或是放貸業務是根據民法去處理的，它是公司法第十五條去處理的。"],["賴委員惠員：好，主委，我也相信你一定會跟我講不是歸你管，因為你們現在有很多的作為看不出來是歸你們管。我想民間的租賃非金管會來管轄是肯定的，在法律上是正確的，金管會7月27日在記者會上面也有講得非常清楚，租賃業是民間的借貸，應該是由消費者保護機制來處理，甚至你是講提高監督的管理對消費者未必是有利。如果我們從司法院的裁判書裡頭去查詢，光是去年中租迪和債務人聲請債務更生案件就比前年多了80件，現在是131件，顯然這個已經成為一個很嚴重的社會問題了，主委，你怎麼看這個事情？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我想不論在社群媒體上或是外界關心或是委員的垂詢上，我們當然也注意到這個問題，但是這個部分其實在相關的法律中都有規定，比方重利或者非法催收或者資訊揭露，都有相關的法律可以規定……"],["賴委員惠員：好，主委，我再讓你看到另外一張圖，這個是裕富公司整理出來的，包括國內前三大租賃業者放貸的條件，不管在放款的利率、期限，還有放款的資格，它都做了比較。主委，你從這一張圖裡頭看到了什麼樣的問題？再下一張，為什麼一定要由金管會來管？這個利息該如何管？一隻牛要剝兩層皮，這個惡性循環！我們從上一張圖所看到的就是租賃業裡頭所顯現出來的放款利率、期限，還有放款的資格。主委，我們看到了它的利率從12%到15.75%，這麼高的利率！你還不管嗎？我們甚至還看到了中租有一個專門針對年輕人的中租輪你貸款契約裡頭，消費者延遲繳款的時候，必須要被收取更多的利息，接近33%，我相信看到這個33%你應該是會非常震撼的，是不是？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，這個利率因為現在民法最高是16%，您說的那個利率會不會可能是累積的、延滯的？我跟您報告，在去年年初所謂的先買後付（BNPL）開始盛行，我們其實就有列出一個從銀行監理上要注意的原則，包括資訊揭露，給租賃公會，請它要會員去參考。"],["賴委員惠員：好，對，這個就是我下面要跟您討論的。租賃公司瞄準了學生及信用額度低的群眾作為主要的受眾，等於是他們的對象，其實這些人基本上是比較沒有還款能力的，為什麼他們會針對這些人？因為他們不需要去徵信他的財力。身為金管會，我們也知道為了避免學生面臨到債務的風險，所以你在「信用卡業務機構管理辦法」第二十三條有規定禁止對學生行銷，還有一個2萬元額度的上限，問題是租賃公司是不做財務調查的，不做信用調查的，這該怎麼辦呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，我不太確定您說的他們不做財務或信用調查，因為我們也瞭解他們也表達他們會做，而且我們去年年初……"],["賴委員惠員：他們是不做的，我跟你說，主委，他們是不做的，你是不是要讓局長來替你回答？"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，請局長跟您報告，謝謝。"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，確實租賃公司是沒有辦法做到像銀行這樣的徵信，因為銀行是可以參與聯徵……"],["賴委員惠員：主委，所以你有聽到了喔！"],["莊局長琇媛：不過我要說明的就是他們原則上會去查一些中華徵信的資料，然後用這些資料還有借款人的一些行為……"],["賴委員惠員：我跟你講，租賃公司的貸款是不跟聯徵掛鉤的，它怎麼查呢？它只是意思意思告訴你，我想你們沒有深入這些問題，也一直在迴避這些問題。","主委，我再請你看到下一張圖，為什麼請你們一定要管？因為如果你不管的話，你自己的銀行也受到影響，銀行助紂為虐啊！業者向銀行貸款取得資金，然後破產會引發蝴蝶效應。我想你從這張圖裡頭非常清楚地看到了到113年1月底8家公股銀行對融資公司的貸款餘額就是在這裡，高達了1,268億，如果業者因為延滯率過高、資金沒有辦法取得來償還銀行的貸款，是不是會導致銀行的風險增加呢？會不會？主委，你怎麼看？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，這些額度不見得都是做BNPL的，它有可能是商業性租賃的。"],["賴委員惠員：非常好喔！主委，你這樣講喔！未來如果有相對的這些風險產生的時候，我希望你也可以講相對的問題，我今天跟你探討的就是這可能延伸出來的一些問題，我們該怎麼樣去管理，而不是撇清啊！"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們沒有撇清，這些上市公司，其實證交所也都有做一些查核。"],["賴委員惠員：所以你認為沒有問題？你再看實質的一個擔保品，甚至是一台舊式的車子都可以，一台摩托車都可以貸到30萬，你請你下面的人在網路上抓給你看，你在網路上就可以輕易的、很快的找到，一台摩托車可以借30萬，一台超過15年的汽車可以借到80萬這樣的廣告，況且特別標註免財力。主委，這個非常可怕，你要正視這些問題啊！"],["黃主任委員天牧：我瞭解，謝謝委員的提醒，謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：那怎麼辦呢？我現在跟你提醒了，你該怎麼做呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們會參考……"],["賴委員惠員：況且很可怕的是他們的商品貸，商品貸其實是一個謊、是一個騙局啊！核准了以後，業務員告訴貸款的學生或是貸款人：等一下有人會打電話問你，你就說：「喔，有，我確實有買了一個60吋的商品」，還是「我有買了一個手機」，還是「我有買了一個鉑金包」。這個是很嚴重、很嚴重，每天一直在我們四周圍發生的一些金融傷害問題。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員提到的一些個案當然非常重要，但是對這幾家您所提到的公司，其實我們也做過瞭解，我們沒有完全置之度外。"],["賴委員惠員：是，所以我想主委也看到了這個事情的嚴重性，我希望主委在1個月後提出一個比較完整的說明給本席，因為現在民間的租賃業者已經逐漸步入了20年前雙卡風暴的各家銀行的後塵。同時根據2021年金管會的統計，當時旗下擁有或是轉投資租賃業的銀行跟金控才14家，這些業者受到金管會的監督，但不是金管會旗下的租賃業者，反而成為不受你監督的影子銀行，這個影子銀行其實會造成社會很大的亂象跟金融風暴，所以我希望主委再給本席一份資料，說明未來如何統一納管，最好就是在520以前。不過，我也是看好520以後你應該會繼續在這個位置。"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，前提納管好像不是金管會……不過怎麼樣讓市場的秩序能夠更上軌道，我們可以朝這個方面跨部會再研究。"],["賴委員惠員：好。"],["黃主任委員天牧：可不可以？是不是可以跟委員請示這樣？"],["賴委員惠員：是，謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：謝謝賴惠員委員的質詢，接著請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-2","speakers":["郭國文","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","葛如鈞","邱志偉","黃國昌","林楚茵","羅明才","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":269,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00005"}},"transcript":{"id":"149228","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149228","tool":"pyannote","id":"149228-pyannote"},"job_id":"zWC8JGuYIkHIN8WZ","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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\"start\": 654.458, \"end\": 654.478, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,109 --> 00:00:23,037\n沒有印象就是說借錢不用利息結果養出了70萬張的一個卡農我們從1999年萬泰銀行發行的這個喬治瑪利的一個現金卡以後因為審核的條件非常的鬆散所以到了2003年的時候我們就發現了就是銀行的現金卡\n\n2\n00:00:23,877 --> 00:00:48,566\n就是花型的銀行就高達27家那這個總卡量竟然達到了250萬張到了2005年的時候國內的卡如暴增了到了70萬人到了2007年的時候銀行的預放比例將近接近到了5%每個月的打消的呆帳金額就高達百億元主委有沒有印象\n\n3\n00:00:49,969 --> 00:01:09,268\n這個我們都是我們金融監理的一個重要的一個借鑒是是好那再請問主委這個租賃業跟換款的業務是不是歸金融那個金管會來管不是不是那你認為應不應該由你們來管\n\n4\n00:01:11,448 --> 00:01:31,135\n我們跟金管會組織條例的定位是不一樣的因為主任業或是放貸業務他是根據民法去處理的或是公司法15條去處理的主委我也相信你一定會跟我講說不是歸你管因為你們現在有很多的一個作為看不出來是歸你們管那我想這個\n\n5\n00:01:32,836 --> 00:01:56,446\n民間的那個主任會金管會來管轄這個是肯定的在法律上是正確的可是金管會在7月27號在記者會上面也有講了非常清楚主任業是民間的一個借貸業應該是由消費者保護機構來處理那甚至必須要提高那個監督的一個管理對消費者\n\n6\n00:01:56,966 --> 00:02:25,520\n如果你是講提高監督的管理對消費者未必是有利那如果我們從司法院的那個裁判書裡頭去查詢光是去年中租抵合就是債務人的一個申請債務更生案件裡頭就多了比前年多了就是80件他現在是131件顯然這個已經是成為很嚴重的一個社會問題了\n\n7\n00:02:26,661 --> 00:02:46,215\n主委你怎麼看這個事情我想不論在社群媒體上或是外界關心或是委員的追尋上我們當然也注意到這個問題但是我想這個部分其實在相關的法律中都有規定比方說重力啊或者說是非凡的吹奢或是自協介入都有相關的法律可以規定我再讓你看到另外的一張圖這個是\n\n8\n00:02:48,036 --> 00:02:48,917\n主委從這張圖看到了什麼樣的問題?\n\n9\n00:03:13,394 --> 00:03:18,543\n為什麼一定要由金管會來管?我想這個利息該如何管?\n\n10\n00:03:20,251 --> 00:03:41,767\n一隻股要放兩隻股這個的惡性循環我們從上一張圖我們所看到的就是主任業裡頭他所顯現出來的就是換款的利率期限還有換款的一個資格那主委我們看到了他是12他的利率從12到15.75這麼高的一個利率\n\n11\n00:03:47,091 --> 00:04:04,747\n那你還不管嗎?那我們甚至還看到了在下一頁我們看到了一個這個中租他有一個就是專門針對年輕人講的就是中租輪椅貸款企業裡頭我們看到了就是\n\n12\n00:04:06,269 --> 00:04:18,242\n消費者他的延遲繳款的時候他的就是必須要收取更多的一個利息接近33%我相信你看到這個33%你應該是會非常震撼的是不是\n\n13\n00:04:22,162 --> 00:04:43,456\n那委員這個利率應該現民法最高是16那他您說的那個利率會不會可能是累積的延遲的那我跟您報告其實在去年年初所謂的先買後付BNPL開始盛行我們其實就有列出一個從銀行監理上要注意的原則包括資訊的接觸給主任工會請他去要會員去做參考就是說\n\n14\n00:04:46,238 --> 00:05:09,928\n主任公司他瞄準了學生他的信用額度低的一個群眾作為主要的一個受眾受眾的一個那個他們的一個等於是他們的一個對象那其實這些人就是一個基本上比較沒有還款能力的那為什麼他們會針對這些人因為他不需要去徵信他的財力\n\n15\n00:05:11,601 --> 00:05:38,822\n那如果你身為就是這個金管會我們也知道說你為了避免學生面臨到債務的一個風險所以你在信用卡業務機構的一個管理辦法裡頭第23條你有規定禁止對學生做行銷那況且你還有一個2萬元的額度的上限那問題就是說你的主任公司他是不做財務的一個調查的不做信用的一個調查的那這該怎麼辦呢\n\n16\n00:05:40,322 --> 00:05:57,752\n法委員我不太確定您說的他不做財務或信用調查因為我們也有瞭解他們也表達他們也表達他們可能會做而且我們去年年初他們是不做的我跟你說主委他們是不做的你是不是要讓局長來好請局長跟您報告謝謝\n\n17\n00:06:00,267 --> 00:06:28,386\n報告委員,確實租賃公司是沒有辦法做到像銀行這樣的徵信,因為銀行是可以參與連徵。所以主委你有聽到了?不過我要說明的就是說,他們原則上他們會去查一些中華徵信的一些資料,然後用這些資料還有一些就是借款人想的一些行為。我跟你講租賃公司的貸款他是不跟那個連徵掛鉤的,他怎麼查勒?\n\n18\n00:06:30,387 --> 00:06:49,665\n他只是意思意思就是告訴你我想你們沒有深入這些問題那你們也一直就是在迴避這些問題那就是說主委我再請你看到下一張圖為什麼就是說請你們一定要管因為如果你不管的話你自己的銀行也受到影響\n\n19\n00:06:51,573 --> 00:07:13,395\n這個銀行助紂為虐業者向銀行貸款取得資金然後這個資產這個這個破產會引發蝴蝶效應我想你從這張圖裡頭非常清楚的看到了到113年的一月底八家公股銀行對融資公司你們的貸款的餘額就是在這裡\n\n20\n00:07:14,946 --> 00:07:35,869\n在這裡這高達了1268億如果業者因為研製力過高的話資金沒有辦法取得那償還銀行的貸款是不是會導致銀行的風險增加呢?會不會?主委報委員這些額度不見得都是做您的PNPL的他有可能商業性的租賃的\n\n21\n00:07:37,059 --> 00:08:02,902\n非常好喔主委你這樣講齁那在未來如果有相對的這一些風險產生的時候我希望你也可以講相對的一個問題我今天跟你探討了就是說這可能延伸出來的一些問題我們該怎麼樣去管理而不是撇清啊我們沒有撇清其實這些上市公司其實證交所也都有做一些查核\n\n22\n00:08:04,403 --> 00:08:25,841\n所以你認為沒有問題你再看下一張這個實質的一個那個單保品他甚至一台舊式的一個車子他都可以一個摩托車他都可以帶到30萬你甚至在網路上你請你的那個下面下面的人抓給你看你在網路上你輕易你就可以\n\n23\n00:08:26,502 --> 00:08:50,507\n很快的就是找到了一台摩托車可以借30萬一台超過15年的汽車可以借到80萬這樣的一個廣告況且他特別跟你標註免財力免財力這非常可怕主委你要正視這些問題啊我了解謝謝委員的提醒謝謝那怎麼辦呢我現在跟你提醒了那你該怎麼做呢\n\n24\n00:08:51,664 --> 00:09:20,348\n況且他們很可怕的就是說他們商品的一個商品袋商品袋其實是一個謊是一個騙局他核准了以後業務員告訴了這個貸款的學生還是這個貸款人他說等一下有人會打電話問你你就說我確實有買了一個60吋的商品還是我有買了一個手機還是我有買了一個薄金包\n\n25\n00:09:22,115 --> 00:09:44,048\n這個是很嚴重很嚴重每天就是在我們四周圍就一直在發生的一些金融傷害的一個問題主委委員您提的一些個案當然非常的重要但是我們對這幾家您所提到的這些公司其實我們也做過了解我們沒有說完全就是置之度外\n\n26\n00:09:45,629 --> 00:10:13,601\n所以就是說我想這個主委你也看到了這個事情的一個嚴重性所以在最後一頁那我希望就是主委在一個月後你提出了一個比較完整的一個說明給本席那因為現在民間的主任業者已經逐漸步入了20年前雙卡風暴的一個各家銀行的一個後塵同時我們根據2021年金管會的一個統計\n\n27\n00:10:14,901 --> 00:10:14,961\n主席\n\n28\n00:10:43,142 --> 00:10:50,776\n給本席一份資料就是說未來如何統一的一個納管那最好就是在520以前不過我也是看好520以後你應該會繼續在這個位置\n\n29\n00:10:54,258 --> 00:10:54,478\n王洪威議員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n109\t23037\t沒有印象就是說借錢不用利息結果養出了70萬張的一個卡農我們從1999年萬泰銀行發行的這個喬治瑪利的一個現金卡以後因為審核的條件非常的鬆散所以到了2003年的時候我們就發現了就是銀行的現金卡\n23877\t48566\t就是花型的銀行就高達27家那這個總卡量竟然達到了250萬張到了2005年的時候國內的卡如暴增了到了70萬人到了2007年的時候銀行的預放比例將近接近到了5%每個月的打消的呆帳金額就高達百億元主委有沒有印象\n49969\t69268\t這個我們都是我們金融監理的一個重要的一個借鑒是是好那再請問主委這個租賃業跟換款的業務是不是歸金融那個金管會來管不是不是那你認為應不應該由你們來管\n71448\t91135\t我們跟金管會組織條例的定位是不一樣的因為主任業或是放貸業務他是根據民法去處理的或是公司法15條去處理的主委我也相信你一定會跟我講說不是歸你管因為你們現在有很多的一個作為看不出來是歸你們管那我想這個\n92836\t116446\t民間的那個主任會金管會來管轄這個是肯定的在法律上是正確的可是金管會在7月27號在記者會上面也有講了非常清楚主任業是民間的一個借貸業應該是由消費者保護機構來處理那甚至必須要提高那個監督的一個管理對消費者\n116966\t145520\t如果你是講提高監督的管理對消費者未必是有利那如果我們從司法院的那個裁判書裡頭去查詢光是去年中租抵合就是債務人的一個申請債務更生案件裡頭就多了比前年多了就是80件他現在是131件顯然這個已經是成為很嚴重的一個社會問題了\n146661\t166215\t主委你怎麼看這個事情我想不論在社群媒體上或是外界關心或是委員的追尋上我們當然也注意到這個問題但是我想這個部分其實在相關的法律中都有規定比方說重力啊或者說是非凡的吹奢或是自協介入都有相關的法律可以規定我再讓你看到另外的一張圖這個是\n168036\t168917\t主委從這張圖看到了什麼樣的問題?\n193394\t198543\t為什麼一定要由金管會來管?我想這個利息該如何管?\n200251\t221767\t一隻股要放兩隻股這個的惡性循環我們從上一張圖我們所看到的就是主任業裡頭他所顯現出來的就是換款的利率期限還有換款的一個資格那主委我們看到了他是12他的利率從12到15.75這麼高的一個利率\n227091\t244747\t那你還不管嗎?那我們甚至還看到了在下一頁我們看到了一個這個中租他有一個就是專門針對年輕人講的就是中租輪椅貸款企業裡頭我們看到了就是\n246269\t258242\t消費者他的延遲繳款的時候他的就是必須要收取更多的一個利息接近33%我相信你看到這個33%你應該是會非常震撼的是不是\n262162\t283456\t那委員這個利率應該現民法最高是16那他您說的那個利率會不會可能是累積的延遲的那我跟您報告其實在去年年初所謂的先買後付BNPL開始盛行我們其實就有列出一個從銀行監理上要注意的原則包括資訊的接觸給主任工會請他去要會員去做參考就是說\n286238\t309928\t主任公司他瞄準了學生他的信用額度低的一個群眾作為主要的一個受眾受眾的一個那個他們的一個等於是他們的一個對象那其實這些人就是一個基本上比較沒有還款能力的那為什麼他們會針對這些人因為他不需要去徵信他的財力\n311601\t338822\t那如果你身為就是這個金管會我們也知道說你為了避免學生面臨到債務的一個風險所以你在信用卡業務機構的一個管理辦法裡頭第23條你有規定禁止對學生做行銷那況且你還有一個2萬元的額度的上限那問題就是說你的主任公司他是不做財務的一個調查的不做信用的一個調查的那這該怎麼辦呢\n340322\t357752\t法委員我不太確定您說的他不做財務或信用調查因為我們也有瞭解他們也表達他們也表達他們可能會做而且我們去年年初他們是不做的我跟你說主委他們是不做的你是不是要讓局長來好請局長跟您報告謝謝\n360267\t388386\t報告委員,確實租賃公司是沒有辦法做到像銀行這樣的徵信,因為銀行是可以參與連徵。所以主委你有聽到了?不過我要說明的就是說,他們原則上他們會去查一些中華徵信的一些資料,然後用這些資料還有一些就是借款人想的一些行為。我跟你講租賃公司的貸款他是不跟那個連徵掛鉤的,他怎麼查勒?\n390387\t409665\t他只是意思意思就是告訴你我想你們沒有深入這些問題那你們也一直就是在迴避這些問題那就是說主委我再請你看到下一張圖為什麼就是說請你們一定要管因為如果你不管的話你自己的銀行也受到影響\n411573\t433395\t這個銀行助紂為虐業者向銀行貸款取得資金然後這個資產這個這個破產會引發蝴蝶效應我想你從這張圖裡頭非常清楚的看到了到113年的一月底八家公股銀行對融資公司你們的貸款的餘額就是在這裡\n434946\t455869\t在這裡這高達了1268億如果業者因為研製力過高的話資金沒有辦法取得那償還銀行的貸款是不是會導致銀行的風險增加呢?會不會?主委報委員這些額度不見得都是做您的PNPL的他有可能商業性的租賃的\n457059\t482902\t非常好喔主委你這樣講齁那在未來如果有相對的這一些風險產生的時候我希望你也可以講相對的一個問題我今天跟你探討了就是說這可能延伸出來的一些問題我們該怎麼樣去管理而不是撇清啊我們沒有撇清其實這些上市公司其實證交所也都有做一些查核\n484403\t505841\t所以你認為沒有問題你再看下一張這個實質的一個那個單保品他甚至一台舊式的一個車子他都可以一個摩托車他都可以帶到30萬你甚至在網路上你請你的那個下面下面的人抓給你看你在網路上你輕易你就可以\n506502\t530507\t很快的就是找到了一台摩托車可以借30萬一台超過15年的汽車可以借到80萬這樣的一個廣告況且他特別跟你標註免財力免財力這非常可怕主委你要正視這些問題啊我了解謝謝委員的提醒謝謝那怎麼辦呢我現在跟你提醒了那你該怎麼做呢\n531664\t560348\t況且他們很可怕的就是說他們商品的一個商品袋商品袋其實是一個謊是一個騙局他核准了以後業務員告訴了這個貸款的學生還是這個貸款人他說等一下有人會打電話問你你就說我確實有買了一個60吋的商品還是我有買了一個手機還是我有買了一個薄金包\n562115\t584048\t這個是很嚴重很嚴重每天就是在我們四周圍就一直在發生的一些金融傷害的一個問題主委委員您提的一些個案當然非常的重要但是我們對這幾家您所提到的這些公司其實我們也做過了解我們沒有說完全就是置之度外\n585629\t613601\t所以就是說我想這個主委你也看到了這個事情的一個嚴重性所以在最後一頁那我希望就是主委在一個月後你提出了一個比較完整的一個說明給本席那因為現在民間的主任業者已經逐漸步入了20年前雙卡風暴的一個各家銀行的一個後塵同時我們根據2021年金管會的一個統計\n614901\t614961\t主席\n643142\t650776\t給本席一份資料就是說未來如何統一的一個納管那最好就是在520以前不過我也是看好520以後你應該會繼續在這個位置\n654258\t654478\t王洪威議員\n","txt":"沒有印象就是說借錢不用利息結果養出了70萬張的一個卡農我們從1999年萬泰銀行發行的這個喬治瑪利的一個現金卡以後因為審核的條件非常的鬆散所以到了2003年的時候我們就發現了就是銀行的現金卡\n就是花型的銀行就高達27家那這個總卡量竟然達到了250萬張到了2005年的時候國內的卡如暴增了到了70萬人到了2007年的時候銀行的預放比例將近接近到了5%每個月的打消的呆帳金額就高達百億元主委有沒有印象\n這個我們都是我們金融監理的一個重要的一個借鑒是是好那再請問主委這個租賃業跟換款的業務是不是歸金融那個金管會來管不是不是那你認為應不應該由你們來管\n我們跟金管會組織條例的定位是不一樣的因為主任業或是放貸業務他是根據民法去處理的或是公司法15條去處理的主委我也相信你一定會跟我講說不是歸你管因為你們現在有很多的一個作為看不出來是歸你們管那我想這個\n民間的那個主任會金管會來管轄這個是肯定的在法律上是正確的可是金管會在7月27號在記者會上面也有講了非常清楚主任業是民間的一個借貸業應該是由消費者保護機構來處理那甚至必須要提高那個監督的一個管理對消費者\n如果你是講提高監督的管理對消費者未必是有利那如果我們從司法院的那個裁判書裡頭去查詢光是去年中租抵合就是債務人的一個申請債務更生案件裡頭就多了比前年多了就是80件他現在是131件顯然這個已經是成為很嚴重的一個社會問題了\n主委你怎麼看這個事情我想不論在社群媒體上或是外界關心或是委員的追尋上我們當然也注意到這個問題但是我想這個部分其實在相關的法律中都有規定比方說重力啊或者說是非凡的吹奢或是自協介入都有相關的法律可以規定我再讓你看到另外的一張圖這個是\n主委從這張圖看到了什麼樣的問題?\n為什麼一定要由金管會來管?我想這個利息該如何管?\n一隻股要放兩隻股這個的惡性循環我們從上一張圖我們所看到的就是主任業裡頭他所顯現出來的就是換款的利率期限還有換款的一個資格那主委我們看到了他是12他的利率從12到15.75這麼高的一個利率\n那你還不管嗎?那我們甚至還看到了在下一頁我們看到了一個這個中租他有一個就是專門針對年輕人講的就是中租輪椅貸款企業裡頭我們看到了就是\n消費者他的延遲繳款的時候他的就是必須要收取更多的一個利息接近33%我相信你看到這個33%你應該是會非常震撼的是不是\n那委員這個利率應該現民法最高是16那他您說的那個利率會不會可能是累積的延遲的那我跟您報告其實在去年年初所謂的先買後付BNPL開始盛行我們其實就有列出一個從銀行監理上要注意的原則包括資訊的接觸給主任工會請他去要會員去做參考就是說\n主任公司他瞄準了學生他的信用額度低的一個群眾作為主要的一個受眾受眾的一個那個他們的一個等於是他們的一個對象那其實這些人就是一個基本上比較沒有還款能力的那為什麼他們會針對這些人因為他不需要去徵信他的財力\n那如果你身為就是這個金管會我們也知道說你為了避免學生面臨到債務的一個風險所以你在信用卡業務機構的一個管理辦法裡頭第23條你有規定禁止對學生做行銷那況且你還有一個2萬元的額度的上限那問題就是說你的主任公司他是不做財務的一個調查的不做信用的一個調查的那這該怎麼辦呢\n法委員我不太確定您說的他不做財務或信用調查因為我們也有瞭解他們也表達他們也表達他們可能會做而且我們去年年初他們是不做的我跟你說主委他們是不做的你是不是要讓局長來好請局長跟您報告謝謝\n報告委員,確實租賃公司是沒有辦法做到像銀行這樣的徵信,因為銀行是可以參與連徵。所以主委你有聽到了?不過我要說明的就是說,他們原則上他們會去查一些中華徵信的一些資料,然後用這些資料還有一些就是借款人想的一些行為。我跟你講租賃公司的貸款他是不跟那個連徵掛鉤的,他怎麼查勒?\n他只是意思意思就是告訴你我想你們沒有深入這些問題那你們也一直就是在迴避這些問題那就是說主委我再請你看到下一張圖為什麼就是說請你們一定要管因為如果你不管的話你自己的銀行也受到影響\n這個銀行助紂為虐業者向銀行貸款取得資金然後這個資產這個這個破產會引發蝴蝶效應我想你從這張圖裡頭非常清楚的看到了到113年的一月底八家公股銀行對融資公司你們的貸款的餘額就是在這裡\n在這裡這高達了1268億如果業者因為研製力過高的話資金沒有辦法取得那償還銀行的貸款是不是會導致銀行的風險增加呢?會不會?主委報委員這些額度不見得都是做您的PNPL的他有可能商業性的租賃的\n非常好喔主委你這樣講齁那在未來如果有相對的這一些風險產生的時候我希望你也可以講相對的一個問題我今天跟你探討了就是說這可能延伸出來的一些問題我們該怎麼樣去管理而不是撇清啊我們沒有撇清其實這些上市公司其實證交所也都有做一些查核\n所以你認為沒有問題你再看下一張這個實質的一個那個單保品他甚至一台舊式的一個車子他都可以一個摩托車他都可以帶到30萬你甚至在網路上你請你的那個下面下面的人抓給你看你在網路上你輕易你就可以\n很快的就是找到了一台摩托車可以借30萬一台超過15年的汽車可以借到80萬這樣的一個廣告況且他特別跟你標註免財力免財力這非常可怕主委你要正視這些問題啊我了解謝謝委員的提醒謝謝那怎麼辦呢我現在跟你提醒了那你該怎麼做呢\n況且他們很可怕的就是說他們商品的一個商品袋商品袋其實是一個謊是一個騙局他核准了以後業務員告訴了這個貸款的學生還是這個貸款人他說等一下有人會打電話問你你就說我確實有買了一個60吋的商品還是我有買了一個手機還是我有買了一個薄金包\n這個是很嚴重很嚴重每天就是在我們四周圍就一直在發生的一些金融傷害的一個問題主委委員您提的一些個案當然非常的重要但是我們對這幾家您所提到的這些公司其實我們也做過了解我們沒有說完全就是置之度外\n所以就是說我想這個主委你也看到了這個事情的一個嚴重性所以在最後一頁那我希望就是主委在一個月後你提出了一個比較完整的一個說明給本席那因為現在民間的主任業者已經逐漸步入了20年前雙卡風暴的一個各家銀行的一個後塵同時我們根據2021年金管會的一個統計\n主席\n給本席一份資料就是說未來如何統一的一個納管那最好就是在520以前不過我也是看好520以後你應該會繼續在這個位置\n王洪威議員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.109 --> 00:23.037\n沒有印象就是說借錢不用利息結果養出了70萬張的一個卡農我們從1999年萬泰銀行發行的這個喬治瑪利的一個現金卡以後因為審核的條件非常的鬆散所以到了2003年的時候我們就發現了就是銀行的現金卡\n\n00:23.877 --> 00:48.566\n就是花型的銀行就高達27家那這個總卡量竟然達到了250萬張到了2005年的時候國內的卡如暴增了到了70萬人到了2007年的時候銀行的預放比例將近接近到了5%每個月的打消的呆帳金額就高達百億元主委有沒有印象\n\n00:49.969 --> 01:09.268\n這個我們都是我們金融監理的一個重要的一個借鑒是是好那再請問主委這個租賃業跟換款的業務是不是歸金融那個金管會來管不是不是那你認為應不應該由你們來管\n\n01:11.448 --> 01:31.135\n我們跟金管會組織條例的定位是不一樣的因為主任業或是放貸業務他是根據民法去處理的或是公司法15條去處理的主委我也相信你一定會跟我講說不是歸你管因為你們現在有很多的一個作為看不出來是歸你們管那我想這個\n\n01:32.836 --> 01:56.446\n民間的那個主任會金管會來管轄這個是肯定的在法律上是正確的可是金管會在7月27號在記者會上面也有講了非常清楚主任業是民間的一個借貸業應該是由消費者保護機構來處理那甚至必須要提高那個監督的一個管理對消費者\n\n01:56.966 --> 02:25.520\n如果你是講提高監督的管理對消費者未必是有利那如果我們從司法院的那個裁判書裡頭去查詢光是去年中租抵合就是債務人的一個申請債務更生案件裡頭就多了比前年多了就是80件他現在是131件顯然這個已經是成為很嚴重的一個社會問題了\n\n02:26.661 --> 02:46.215\n主委你怎麼看這個事情我想不論在社群媒體上或是外界關心或是委員的追尋上我們當然也注意到這個問題但是我想這個部分其實在相關的法律中都有規定比方說重力啊或者說是非凡的吹奢或是自協介入都有相關的法律可以規定我再讓你看到另外的一張圖這個是\n\n02:48.036 --> 02:48.917\n主委從這張圖看到了什麼樣的問題?\n\n03:13.394 --> 03:18.543\n為什麼一定要由金管會來管?我想這個利息該如何管?\n\n03:20.251 --> 03:41.767\n一隻股要放兩隻股這個的惡性循環我們從上一張圖我們所看到的就是主任業裡頭他所顯現出來的就是換款的利率期限還有換款的一個資格那主委我們看到了他是12他的利率從12到15.75這麼高的一個利率\n\n03:47.091 --> 04:04.747\n那你還不管嗎?那我們甚至還看到了在下一頁我們看到了一個這個中租他有一個就是專門針對年輕人講的就是中租輪椅貸款企業裡頭我們看到了就是\n\n04:06.269 --> 04:18.242\n消費者他的延遲繳款的時候他的就是必須要收取更多的一個利息接近33%我相信你看到這個33%你應該是會非常震撼的是不是\n\n04:22.162 --> 04:43.456\n那委員這個利率應該現民法最高是16那他您說的那個利率會不會可能是累積的延遲的那我跟您報告其實在去年年初所謂的先買後付BNPL開始盛行我們其實就有列出一個從銀行監理上要注意的原則包括資訊的接觸給主任工會請他去要會員去做參考就是說\n\n04:46.238 --> 05:09.928\n主任公司他瞄準了學生他的信用額度低的一個群眾作為主要的一個受眾受眾的一個那個他們的一個等於是他們的一個對象那其實這些人就是一個基本上比較沒有還款能力的那為什麼他們會針對這些人因為他不需要去徵信他的財力\n\n05:11.601 --> 05:38.822\n那如果你身為就是這個金管會我們也知道說你為了避免學生面臨到債務的一個風險所以你在信用卡業務機構的一個管理辦法裡頭第23條你有規定禁止對學生做行銷那況且你還有一個2萬元的額度的上限那問題就是說你的主任公司他是不做財務的一個調查的不做信用的一個調查的那這該怎麼辦呢\n\n05:40.322 --> 05:57.752\n法委員我不太確定您說的他不做財務或信用調查因為我們也有瞭解他們也表達他們也表達他們可能會做而且我們去年年初他們是不做的我跟你說主委他們是不做的你是不是要讓局長來好請局長跟您報告謝謝\n\n06:00.267 --> 06:28.386\n報告委員,確實租賃公司是沒有辦法做到像銀行這樣的徵信,因為銀行是可以參與連徵。所以主委你有聽到了?不過我要說明的就是說,他們原則上他們會去查一些中華徵信的一些資料,然後用這些資料還有一些就是借款人想的一些行為。我跟你講租賃公司的貸款他是不跟那個連徵掛鉤的,他怎麼查勒?\n\n06:30.387 --> 06:49.665\n他只是意思意思就是告訴你我想你們沒有深入這些問題那你們也一直就是在迴避這些問題那就是說主委我再請你看到下一張圖為什麼就是說請你們一定要管因為如果你不管的話你自己的銀行也受到影響\n\n06:51.573 --> 07:13.395\n這個銀行助紂為虐業者向銀行貸款取得資金然後這個資產這個這個破產會引發蝴蝶效應我想你從這張圖裡頭非常清楚的看到了到113年的一月底八家公股銀行對融資公司你們的貸款的餘額就是在這裡\n\n07:14.946 --> 07:35.869\n在這裡這高達了1268億如果業者因為研製力過高的話資金沒有辦法取得那償還銀行的貸款是不是會導致銀行的風險增加呢?會不會?主委報委員這些額度不見得都是做您的PNPL的他有可能商業性的租賃的\n\n07:37.059 --> 08:02.902\n非常好喔主委你這樣講齁那在未來如果有相對的這一些風險產生的時候我希望你也可以講相對的一個問題我今天跟你探討了就是說這可能延伸出來的一些問題我們該怎麼樣去管理而不是撇清啊我們沒有撇清其實這些上市公司其實證交所也都有做一些查核\n\n08:04.403 --> 08:25.841\n所以你認為沒有問題你再看下一張這個實質的一個那個單保品他甚至一台舊式的一個車子他都可以一個摩托車他都可以帶到30萬你甚至在網路上你請你的那個下面下面的人抓給你看你在網路上你輕易你就可以\n\n08:26.502 --> 08:50.507\n很快的就是找到了一台摩托車可以借30萬一台超過15年的汽車可以借到80萬這樣的一個廣告況且他特別跟你標註免財力免財力這非常可怕主委你要正視這些問題啊我了解謝謝委員的提醒謝謝那怎麼辦呢我現在跟你提醒了那你該怎麼做呢\n\n08:51.664 --> 09:20.348\n況且他們很可怕的就是說他們商品的一個商品袋商品袋其實是一個謊是一個騙局他核准了以後業務員告訴了這個貸款的學生還是這個貸款人他說等一下有人會打電話問你你就說我確實有買了一個60吋的商品還是我有買了一個手機還是我有買了一個薄金包\n\n09:22.115 --> 09:44.048\n這個是很嚴重很嚴重每天就是在我們四周圍就一直在發生的一些金融傷害的一個問題主委委員您提的一些個案當然非常的重要但是我們對這幾家您所提到的這些公司其實我們也做過了解我們沒有說完全就是置之度外\n\n09:45.629 --> 10:13.601\n所以就是說我想這個主委你也看到了這個事情的一個嚴重性所以在最後一頁那我希望就是主委在一個月後你提出了一個比較完整的一個說明給本席那因為現在民間的主任業者已經逐漸步入了20年前雙卡風暴的一個各家銀行的一個後塵同時我們根據2021年金管會的一個統計\n\n10:14.901 --> 10:14.961\n主席\n\n10:43.142 --> 10:50.776\n給本席一份資料就是說未來如何統一的一個納管那最好就是在520以前不過我也是看好520以後你應該會繼續在這個位置\n\n10:54.258 --> 10:54.478\n王洪威議員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.109,"end":23.037,"text":"沒有印象就是說借錢不用利息結果養出了70萬張的一個卡農我們從1999年萬泰銀行發行的這個喬治瑪利的一個現金卡以後因為審核的條件非常的鬆散所以到了2003年的時候我們就發現了就是銀行的現金卡"},{"start":23.877,"end":48.566,"text":"就是花型的銀行就高達27家那這個總卡量竟然達到了250萬張到了2005年的時候國內的卡如暴增了到了70萬人到了2007年的時候銀行的預放比例將近接近到了5%每個月的打消的呆帳金額就高達百億元主委有沒有印象"},{"start":49.969,"end":69.268,"text":"這個我們都是我們金融監理的一個重要的一個借鑒是是好那再請問主委這個租賃業跟換款的業務是不是歸金融那個金管會來管不是不是那你認為應不應該由你們來管"},{"start":71.448,"end":91.135,"text":"我們跟金管會組織條例的定位是不一樣的因為主任業或是放貸業務他是根據民法去處理的或是公司法15條去處理的主委我也相信你一定會跟我講說不是歸你管因為你們現在有很多的一個作為看不出來是歸你們管那我想這個"},{"start":92.836,"end":116.446,"text":"民間的那個主任會金管會來管轄這個是肯定的在法律上是正確的可是金管會在7月27號在記者會上面也有講了非常清楚主任業是民間的一個借貸業應該是由消費者保護機構來處理那甚至必須要提高那個監督的一個管理對消費者"},{"start":116.966,"end":145.52,"text":"如果你是講提高監督的管理對消費者未必是有利那如果我們從司法院的那個裁判書裡頭去查詢光是去年中租抵合就是債務人的一個申請債務更生案件裡頭就多了比前年多了就是80件他現在是131件顯然這個已經是成為很嚴重的一個社會問題了"},{"start":146.661,"end":166.215,"text":"主委你怎麼看這個事情我想不論在社群媒體上或是外界關心或是委員的追尋上我們當然也注意到這個問題但是我想這個部分其實在相關的法律中都有規定比方說重力啊或者說是非凡的吹奢或是自協介入都有相關的法律可以規定我再讓你看到另外的一張圖這個是"},{"start":168.036,"end":168.917,"text":"主委從這張圖看到了什麼樣的問題?"},{"start":193.394,"end":198.543,"text":"為什麼一定要由金管會來管?我想這個利息該如何管?"},{"start":200.251,"end":221.767,"text":"一隻股要放兩隻股這個的惡性循環我們從上一張圖我們所看到的就是主任業裡頭他所顯現出來的就是換款的利率期限還有換款的一個資格那主委我們看到了他是12他的利率從12到15.75這麼高的一個利率"},{"start":227.091,"end":244.747,"text":"那你還不管嗎?那我們甚至還看到了在下一頁我們看到了一個這個中租他有一個就是專門針對年輕人講的就是中租輪椅貸款企業裡頭我們看到了就是"},{"start":246.269,"end":258.242,"text":"消費者他的延遲繳款的時候他的就是必須要收取更多的一個利息接近33%我相信你看到這個33%你應該是會非常震撼的是不是"},{"start":262.162,"end":283.456,"text":"那委員這個利率應該現民法最高是16那他您說的那個利率會不會可能是累積的延遲的那我跟您報告其實在去年年初所謂的先買後付BNPL開始盛行我們其實就有列出一個從銀行監理上要注意的原則包括資訊的接觸給主任工會請他去要會員去做參考就是說"},{"start":286.238,"end":309.928,"text":"主任公司他瞄準了學生他的信用額度低的一個群眾作為主要的一個受眾受眾的一個那個他們的一個等於是他們的一個對象那其實這些人就是一個基本上比較沒有還款能力的那為什麼他們會針對這些人因為他不需要去徵信他的財力"},{"start":311.601,"end":338.822,"text":"那如果你身為就是這個金管會我們也知道說你為了避免學生面臨到債務的一個風險所以你在信用卡業務機構的一個管理辦法裡頭第23條你有規定禁止對學生做行銷那況且你還有一個2萬元的額度的上限那問題就是說你的主任公司他是不做財務的一個調查的不做信用的一個調查的那這該怎麼辦呢"},{"start":340.322,"end":357.752,"text":"法委員我不太確定您說的他不做財務或信用調查因為我們也有瞭解他們也表達他們也表達他們可能會做而且我們去年年初他們是不做的我跟你說主委他們是不做的你是不是要讓局長來好請局長跟您報告謝謝"},{"start":360.267,"end":388.386,"text":"報告委員,確實租賃公司是沒有辦法做到像銀行這樣的徵信,因為銀行是可以參與連徵。所以主委你有聽到了?不過我要說明的就是說,他們原則上他們會去查一些中華徵信的一些資料,然後用這些資料還有一些就是借款人想的一些行為。我跟你講租賃公司的貸款他是不跟那個連徵掛鉤的,他怎麼查勒?"},{"start":390.387,"end":409.665,"text":"他只是意思意思就是告訴你我想你們沒有深入這些問題那你們也一直就是在迴避這些問題那就是說主委我再請你看到下一張圖為什麼就是說請你們一定要管因為如果你不管的話你自己的銀行也受到影響"},{"start":411.573,"end":433.395,"text":"這個銀行助紂為虐業者向銀行貸款取得資金然後這個資產這個這個破產會引發蝴蝶效應我想你從這張圖裡頭非常清楚的看到了到113年的一月底八家公股銀行對融資公司你們的貸款的餘額就是在這裡"},{"start":434.946,"end":455.869,"text":"在這裡這高達了1268億如果業者因為研製力過高的話資金沒有辦法取得那償還銀行的貸款是不是會導致銀行的風險增加呢?會不會?主委報委員這些額度不見得都是做您的PNPL的他有可能商業性的租賃的"},{"start":457.059,"end":482.902,"text":"非常好喔主委你這樣講齁那在未來如果有相對的這一些風險產生的時候我希望你也可以講相對的一個問題我今天跟你探討了就是說這可能延伸出來的一些問題我們該怎麼樣去管理而不是撇清啊我們沒有撇清其實這些上市公司其實證交所也都有做一些查核"},{"start":484.403,"end":505.841,"text":"所以你認為沒有問題你再看下一張這個實質的一個那個單保品他甚至一台舊式的一個車子他都可以一個摩托車他都可以帶到30萬你甚至在網路上你請你的那個下面下面的人抓給你看你在網路上你輕易你就可以"},{"start":506.502,"end":530.507,"text":"很快的就是找到了一台摩托車可以借30萬一台超過15年的汽車可以借到80萬這樣的一個廣告況且他特別跟你標註免財力免財力這非常可怕主委你要正視這些問題啊我了解謝謝委員的提醒謝謝那怎麼辦呢我現在跟你提醒了那你該怎麼做呢"},{"start":531.664,"end":560.348,"text":"況且他們很可怕的就是說他們商品的一個商品袋商品袋其實是一個謊是一個騙局他核准了以後業務員告訴了這個貸款的學生還是這個貸款人他說等一下有人會打電話問你你就說我確實有買了一個60吋的商品還是我有買了一個手機還是我有買了一個薄金包"},{"start":562.115,"end":584.048,"text":"這個是很嚴重很嚴重每天就是在我們四周圍就一直在發生的一些金融傷害的一個問題主委委員您提的一些個案當然非常的重要但是我們對這幾家您所提到的這些公司其實我們也做過了解我們沒有說完全就是置之度外"},{"start":585.629,"end":613.601,"text":"所以就是說我想這個主委你也看到了這個事情的一個嚴重性所以在最後一頁那我希望就是主委在一個月後你提出了一個比較完整的一個說明給本席那因為現在民間的主任業者已經逐漸步入了20年前雙卡風暴的一個各家銀行的一個後塵同時我們根據2021年金管會的一個統計"},{"start":614.901,"end":614.961,"text":"主席"},{"start":643.142,"end":650.776,"text":"給本席一份資料就是說未來如何統一的一個納管那最好就是在520以前不過我也是看好520以後你應該會繼續在這個位置"},{"start":654.258,"end":654.478,"text":"王洪威議員"}]}}}}