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12:26:10","影片長度":"00:12:58","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":778,"end_time":"2024-03-04T12:26:10+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T12:13:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":822,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（12時13分）請部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["吳委員春城：抱歉，我把人生第一次的質詢獻給教育部長，我最尊敬的教育部長。"],["潘部長文忠：不敢，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員春城：因為在我中學的時候讀了一本書叫「西潮」，作者就是前教育部長蔣夢麟，當時我看了好感動，這本書對我人生影響很大，因此我一直非常敬佩教育部長。民國初年的時候，當時一個國家在面臨著西學、東學，也就是國家前途，到底國家的文化和價值觀何去何從的時候，蔣夢麟先生能有一個高度，以一個教育家來思考，請問部長覺得教育工作的宗旨是什麼？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，如果就我個人，因為本來一路都是教育人，教育真的是從一個國家裡讓受教者從人到人才，在「人」的概念裡面，更希望每一個人有各種不同的專長，但也能夠各適其所，我想這是教育最大的本質。"],["吳委員春城：謝謝，我知道部長講起來可能三天三夜講不完，我想每一個時代，每一個部長的任務都不太一樣，當時「西潮」的任務也不會是現在的任務，將臺灣的前途往前看三十年，臺灣最重要的一件事情就是民主化，部長認同嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["吳委員春城：民主化很重要，但是我覺得民主化現在大概完成了，臺灣現在人民為主，這不是太大的問題，所以現在也不要一整天太政治化，搞太多民主，教育就要回歸教育的本務。之前的教育部長培養我們國人的民主概念，我覺得也非常認同，但是往後看三十年，部長覺得臺灣最重要的事情是什麼？因為這個就是目標，這目標如果模糊了，國家戰略目標就模糊，教育目標就模糊，就會整天不曉得在幹什麼，部長覺得未來三十年最重要的是什麼？"],["潘部長文忠：就我的瞭解跟過去這段時間的參與跟觀察，整個人口結構的改變我感受非常深，我跟委員一樣都屬戰後嬰兒潮，所謂即將六十的花甲老翁。當時跟現在和未來真的有很大的差距，在教育上我想情勢有了重大的改變，一方面對於少子化的現象，臺灣一定要持續面對，所以我們這幾年投入很大的政策。壯年的部分我想委員也理解，一定關乎整個國家、社會和產業發展，過往我們也比較忽略六十歲以後，但我們現在的平均壽命、餘命變長了，從教育端來看，這部分我認為確實是一個很大的課題。"],["吳委員春城：臺大EMBA教授陳家聲跟我溝通過，他說其實現在很多的知識系統都面臨必須要做認知革命，也就是說我們的認知系統應該要翻新。比如我們一般約定俗成會稱五十歲叫半百老翁，六十歲稱花甲老翁，我們的成語、媒體好像都是這樣寫的，但部長覺得自己是花甲老翁嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：如果以過去大家留下的刻板印象……"],["吳委員春城：所以這個有問題嘛！這有問題，但是這會影響到國人，甚至整個社會，不要小看這個，這也不是一個笑話，不只是一個成語，這就是我們社會現在的一個價值系統。六十歲的人就會覺得吃老要認老，所以我今天要談的重點是，我們從教育的觀念怎麼面對六十歲以後的人，現在臺灣有多少六十歲的人？部長知道嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：以目前來說大概是五百萬人左右。"],["吳委員春城：六百萬人。"],["潘部長文忠：已經到六百了？因為它一直在增加。"],["吳委員春城：臺灣進入高齡化社會，因為臺灣人說吃老要認老，所以我們平均退休年齡是60.3歲，很早就要退休了。那退休了以後要追求什麼？請問部長退休以後要追求什麼？這個應該是由教育提供答案、給人民的價值跟信念，應該也是教育部的工作，教育部要去塑造國家的意志，請問要追求什麼？"],["潘部長文忠：如果以現在平均壽命已經到八十歲，甚至以後還會再增加，從退休到這個階段我們說是較年長者，先不論要用哪個名詞，無論是自己的興趣也好，或是專長能力各方面，能夠再延續去發展自我肯定的價值，我覺得這是必要的。"],["吳委員春城：對，所以部長是認同的。"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["吳委員春城：因為我們目前的系統當中，認為退休以後就是遊山玩水、含飴弄孫這兩件事情。另外是我們現在年青人的教育，很重要的就是培養出來以後，要知道他們在什麼環境生存，就是剛才講的培養人才能夠適應環境，在未來能夠成為國家棟樑。","明年畢業的孩子跨出校園、踏入社會時，臺灣就進入超高齡社會了，五個人就有一個人超過六十五歲。2034年，再十年後，這些孩子三十歲出頭了，應該人生開始要起步，所謂三十而立，臺灣已經有一半的人口超過五十歲了。2040年，臺灣六十五歲以上的人將占總人口的三分之一，也就是說這個孩子的一生都在高齡社會裡面，請問教育部的長官們，現在我們所培養的這些孩子，你們設定他們未來在社會當中的競爭生態是什麼生態？我現在時間有限，我問過一個大學校長，他們設定的是我們社會永遠都是青春無敵的社會，我看了早上教育部的簡報，大概也是這樣設定，我們的社會永遠是一個青春無敵的社會，事實上這是大錯特錯，我們如果戰場都設定錯誤的話，現在所做的教育規劃可能是有問題的。這也就是我為什麼要提出來這樣的結果，因為我們對於高齡者沒有給他們一個好的引導，所以臺灣的高齡者現在平均臥床到8.9年，高齡化的結果是倒下來。年青人因為培養出來以後找不到自己的戰場，所以不敢結婚，結婚不敢生小孩，這就是少子化最大的生態問題，所以後來成為躺平族。也就是說，在現行的教育體制下，我們整個社會就是躺成一片，一邊臥床，一邊躺平。","我覺得剛才提到的是一個大方向，前面論述太久，我今天要提的就是60歲以後，如果現在我們平均年齡八十幾歲了，以後可能平均會到90歲，也就是會展開二、三十年之間的第三人生，但是我們現在的第三人生缺乏描述，沒有政策、沒有產業，我覺得這是教育部的責任。我們現在看到教育部終身教育這一塊的預算只有34億元，但是我們60歲以上有600萬人，34億元提供600萬人的教育，平均每個高齡者一年的教育預算是臺幣57塊，這個是什麼意思呢？這就表示我們不重視嘛！應該是這樣子吧？然後大家的推論就是高齡者對教育沒有興趣，大家看看這就是我們終身教育的場景，這種場景會有人有興趣嗎？所以從報名率來看，我們樂齡大學報名只有4,000人，600萬人當中只有4,000人，這就是我們過去對高齡者缺乏想像，教育當中對高齡者的歧視，缺乏規劃、缺乏想像，形諸在我們的政策和預算編製當中都非常偏差。","其實第一人生進入第二人生，也就是18歲進大學，這很正常。為什麼第二人生進入第三人生就不用進大學呢？我們可不可以用大學來取代養老院？其實這是充滿生機，教育部現在最大的煩惱是因為少子化，所以很多大學要關門，但是事實上這600萬我們稱之為「壯世代」的這群人，人生最大的遺憾就是沒有進大學，因為那時候大學錄取率很低，教育部要不要考慮來規劃讓這些人能夠進大學？不要認為他們對讀書沒興趣，是因為課程設計太爛，如何在第三人生繼續能夠很豐富、能夠成功？我跟你講，大學都不用關門了，600萬人要進去，而且這些人擁有臺灣三分之二的財富，所以財源非常豐富，請教育部好好認真，我也會做一個臨時提案。不好意思，我知道部長有很多話要講，我待會會做一個臨時提案，也會給一個時間，因為這不是貿然，這個要翻轉一個體系，需要大家認真面對，我們一起來推動，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：是，謝謝委員，前幾天拜會委員，聽委員談壯世代的整個構想，我把你的專書比較快速的瀏覽，我發現這是一個我們面對未來要再重新思考定位，我想過往我們所做的不管是樂齡大學、高齡學習中心等，我想有它的基礎，但是現在也滿多的大學，包含所謂開放大學，也有很多類似的回流，但是那個跟委員這個構想其實還有一些可再努力的地方，我想這些確實可以再來研議，我對這樣的方向和臺灣要面對的問題，我是非常認同。"],["吳委員春城：謝謝部長。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員，謝謝部長。","接下來，葉元之委員、葉元之委員、葉元之委員。","接下來請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-2","speakers":["柯志恩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","吳沛憶","萬美玲","范雲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","林倩綺","林宜瑾","吳春城","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲"],"page_start":251,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130801_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130801_00005"}},"transcript":{"id":"149265","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149265","tool":"pyannote","id":"149265-pyannote"},"job_id":"xiEc1ta9SQbt6rwR","queued_at":"2024-06-02 12:15:54","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-02 12:15:54","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149265"},{"time":"2024-06-02 12:15:55","msg":"downloading https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd5247bf278774a676baff13691fd5102be9f061460307c7a410057d8a8a82e8b85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"},{"time":"2024-06-02 12:16:18","msg":"converting mp4 to wav"},{"time":"2024-06-02 12:16:20","msg":"running pyannote"},{"time":"2024-06-02 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00:01:56,788\n部長覺得教育的工作忠實?我個人對教育的因為我本人一路都是教育人真的教育是培養一個國家裡面讓受教者從人到人才那人的概念裡面更希望每一個有各種不同的專長但他也能夠各式其所\n\n5\n00:01:57,188 --> 00:01:57,368\n每一個時代每一個\n\n6\n00:02:11,721 --> 00:02:34,138\n部長,任務都不太一樣。當時的任務,西朝也不會是現在的任務了。看台灣的前途,往前30年台灣最重要的一件事情就是民主化。部長認同嗎?是。民主化很重要。但是我覺得民主化現在大概完成了。\n\n7\n00:02:34,895 --> 00:02:58,135\n台灣現在人民為主這不太大的問題啦所以現在也不要一直整天太政治化搞太多民主教育就要回歸教育的本務在之前的教育部長培養我們國人的民主概念我覺得也非常認同但是往後看30年台灣最重要的事情是什麼\n\n8\n00:03:00,100 --> 00:03:09,347\n部長覺得往後因為這個就是目標喔這目標如果是模糊的國家戰略目標就模糊教育目標就模糊那整天不曉得在幹什麼\n\n9\n00:03:11,410 --> 00:03:13,212\n部長覺得未來30年最重要的是什麼?\n\n10\n00:03:33,593 --> 00:03:33,613\n委員會議員\n\n11\n00:04:04,088 --> 00:04:17,379\n台大教授陳佳森E&B的教授他跟我溝通他說現在其實在我們很多的知識系統上面都面臨到必須要做認知革命\n\n12\n00:04:18,220 --> 00:04:41,920\n也就是我們的認知系統應該要翻新所以剛才比如說這個我們一般約定俗稱會稱50歲叫什麼半白老翁對不對那60稱什麼花甲老翁我們的成語嘛媒體好像還都是這樣寫那部長是自己覺得自己是花甲老翁嗎\n\n13\n00:04:44,258 --> 00:04:57,692\n如果以過去大家留下刻板印象所以這個有問題嘛這有問題但是呢這個影響到國人欸我們整個的社會就不要小看這個這也不是一個笑話不是一個成語這就是我們這個社會現在的一個價值系統\n\n14\n00:05:03,769 --> 00:05:09,912\n我今天要談的重點就是說從教育部的觀念我們怎麼樣面對60歲以後的人\n\n15\n00:05:19,732 --> 00:05:44,167\n現在60歲以後在台灣現在有多少人呢?部長知道嗎?以目前來講大概是500萬左右600萬已經到600了大概600萬因為它一直在增加啦對一直在增加台灣進入高齡化社會現在台灣人因為都要領老所以我們平均退休是60.3歲所以很早就要退休了那退休了以後要追求什麼?請問部長你知道嗎?退休以後要追求什麼?\n\n16\n00:05:49,505 --> 00:05:51,266\n如果以現在平均壽命已經到80歲這樣的甚至以後還會再增加這個從退休到這個階段\n\n17\n00:06:12,656 --> 00:06:33,703\n其實這方面能夠讓我們說教廉長者先不要用哪個名詞其實在怎麼樣的去不管對自己的興趣也好或自己的專長能力各方面能夠再有更延續的這個去發展自己的自我肯定價值我覺得這是必要的對是這樣子所以部長是認同的因為目前我們的系統當中認為退休以後就是\n\n18\n00:06:42,346 --> 00:06:48,751\n遊山玩水和你弄孫另外,孩子年輕人的教育\n\n19\n00:06:51,065 --> 00:07:17,298\n我們現在年輕的教育很重要就是培養出來以後要知道他們在什麼環境生存培養他剛才講的就是培養人才能夠適應環境在未來能夠成為國家棟樑明年畢業的孩子跨出校園他踏出這個社會台灣就進入超高齡社會了五個人就有一個人超過65歲\n\n20\n00:07:20,872 --> 00:07:43,274\n2034年大概這孩子嘛在10年後這孩子30出頭了應該人生開始要起步嘛32例台灣一半人口已經超過50歲了2040年台灣65歲以上人占人口的三分之一也就是說這個孩子是在的一生都在什麼社會高齡社會裡面\n\n21\n00:07:45,110 --> 00:07:55,182\n請問我不曉得教育部的這些長官們現在我們所培養的這些孩子你們設定他們未來在社會當中的那個競爭的生態是什麼生態\n\n22\n00:07:57,782 --> 00:07:58,623\n我問過一個大學校長\n\n23\n00:08:28,802 --> 00:08:55,575\n就是說不管這樣的一個結果我們對於高齡者因為沒有給他們一個好的引導所以台灣的高齡者現在平均臥床到8.9年高齡化的結果是倒下來年輕人因為培養出來以後他的戰場找不到自己的戰場所以不敢結婚結了婚不敢生小孩這就是少子化最大的生態的問題所以後來成為躺平族\n\n24\n00:08:56,195 --> 00:09:09,843\n也就是說在現行的教育體制下我們整個的社會導向了就是一邊就是躺成一片一邊臥床一邊躺平那我覺得剛才提到的這個是一個大方向\n\n25\n00:09:11,428 --> 00:09:34,866\n好那今天呢因為我要提了前面的論述太久就是其實60歲以後現在如果我們平均80幾歲了其實如果已經到60歲平均會到90也就是會展開二三十年之間的第三人生但是我們現在的這個第三人生缺乏描述沒有政策沒有產業沒有包括個人的都覺得退任我覺得這是教育部的責任\n\n26\n00:09:36,287 --> 00:10:00,807\n所以我們現在怎麼樣來我們現在目前看到教育部的就是終身教育的這一塊終身教育這一塊我們現在的預算只有34億但是我們的60歲上有600萬人34億提供600萬人的教育平均每個高齡者一年的教育預算是台幣57塊\n\n27\n00:10:03,927 --> 00:10:30,334\n這是什麼意思呢?這就表示我們不重視嘛應該是這樣子吧然後大家的推論就是高齡者對教育沒有興趣大家看看這就是我們終身教育的場景這種場景會有人有興趣嗎?所以當然然後說從大家的報名率我們的樂齡大學報名只有4000人600萬人當中只有4000人所以呢這一個\n\n28\n00:10:32,027 --> 00:10:46,955\n這個就是我們過去對高齡者缺乏想像教育當中對高齡的歧視缺乏規劃缺乏想像到形塑在我們的政策跟我們的預算編制當中都非常的偏差\n\n29\n00:10:48,956 --> 00:11:07,995\n這裡提出來其實第一人生進入第二人生這18歲要進大學嘛對不對這很正常那為什麼第二人生進入第三人生就不用進大學呢我們可不可以用大學來取代養老院其實這個是充滿生機教育部現在最大的煩惱是因為少子化所以很多大學要關門嘛\n\n30\n00:11:09,696 --> 00:11:35,747\n但事實上這個600萬的我們稱叫壯世代的這一群人人生最大的遺憾就是沒有進大學因為那時候大學錄取率很低教育部要不要考慮來規劃讓這些人能夠進大學那不要認為說他們對大學對讀書沒興趣是因為課程設計太爛如何在第三人生繼續能夠很豐富能夠成功我跟你講\n\n31\n00:11:36,807 --> 00:11:39,509\n希望這個部長,因為不好意思我知道部長有很多話要講,就是\n\n32\n00:11:57,421 --> 00:12:00,422\n謝謝委員那一次前幾天拜會委員聽委員在談壯世代的這個整個構想我怕你那個專書我比較快速的瀏覽我發現\n\n33\n00:12:23,150 --> 00:12:23,171\n韓國瑜\n\n34\n00:12:38,932 --> 00:12:38,952\n謝謝部長。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n26086\t45760\t委員好抱歉第一次我把人生第一次的質詢獻給教育部長我最尊敬的教育部長因為在我中學的時候就讀了一本書叫《西曹》\n48691\t60575\t教育部長蔣孟林我看了好感動這本書對我人生影響很大而且我就一直非常敬佩教育部長\n62156\t90341\t那就是在一個國家在當時民國初年的時候在面臨的這個西學東學就是國家前途國家到底我們的文化我們的價值觀那這一些到底要何去何從的時候那有一個高度那一個教育家來思考因為教育的工作是在做什麼\n91940\t116788\t部長覺得教育的工作忠實?我個人對教育的因為我本人一路都是教育人真的教育是培養一個國家裡面讓受教者從人到人才那人的概念裡面更希望每一個有各種不同的專長但他也能夠各式其所\n117188\t117368\t每一個時代每一個\n131721\t154138\t部長,任務都不太一樣。當時的任務,西朝也不會是現在的任務了。看台灣的前途,往前30年台灣最重要的一件事情就是民主化。部長認同嗎?是。民主化很重要。但是我覺得民主化現在大概完成了。\n154895\t178135\t台灣現在人民為主這不太大的問題啦所以現在也不要一直整天太政治化搞太多民主教育就要回歸教育的本務在之前的教育部長培養我們國人的民主概念我覺得也非常認同但是往後看30年台灣最重要的事情是什麼\n180100\t189347\t部長覺得往後因為這個就是目標喔這目標如果是模糊的國家戰略目標就模糊教育目標就模糊那整天不曉得在幹什麼\n191410\t193212\t部長覺得未來30年最重要的是什麼?\n213593\t213613\t委員會議員\n244088\t257379\t台大教授陳佳森E&B的教授他跟我溝通他說現在其實在我們很多的知識系統上面都面臨到必須要做認知革命\n258220\t281920\t也就是我們的認知系統應該要翻新所以剛才比如說這個我們一般約定俗稱會稱50歲叫什麼半白老翁對不對那60稱什麼花甲老翁我們的成語嘛媒體好像還都是這樣寫那部長是自己覺得自己是花甲老翁嗎\n284258\t297692\t如果以過去大家留下刻板印象所以這個有問題嘛 這有問題但是呢 這個影響到國人欸 我們整個的社會就不要小看這個 這也不是一個笑話 不是一個成語 這就是我們這個社會現在的一個價值系統\n303769\t309912\t我今天要談的重點就是說從教育部的觀念我們怎麼樣面對60歲以後的人\n319732\t344167\t現在60歲以後在台灣現在有多少人呢?部長知道嗎?以目前來講大概是500萬左右600萬已經到600了大概600萬因為它一直在增加啦對一直在增加台灣進入高齡化社會現在台灣人因為都要領老所以我們平均退休是60.3歲所以很早就要退休了那退休了以後要追求什麼?請問部長你知道嗎?退休以後要追求什麼?\n349505\t351266\t如果以現在平均壽命已經到80歲這樣的甚至以後還會再增加這個從退休到這個階段\n372656\t393703\t其實這方面能夠讓我們說教廉長者先不要用哪個名詞其實在怎麼樣的去不管對自己的興趣也好或自己的專長能力各方面能夠再有更延續的這個去發展自己的自我肯定價值我覺得這是必要的對 是這樣子所以部長是認同的因為目前我們的系統當中認為退休以後就是\n402346\t408751\t遊山玩水和你弄孫另外,孩子年輕人的教育\n411065\t437298\t我們現在年輕的教育很重要就是培養出來以後要知道他們在什麼環境生存培養他剛才講的就是培養人才能夠適應環境在未來能夠成為國家棟樑明年畢業的孩子跨出校園他踏出這個社會台灣就進入超高齡社會了五個人就有一個人超過65歲\n440872\t463274\t2034年大概這孩子嘛在10年後這孩子30出頭了應該人生開始要起步嘛32例台灣一半人口已經超過50歲了2040年台灣65歲以上人占人口的三分之一也就是說這個孩子是在的一生都在什麼社會高齡社會裡面\n465110\t475182\t請問我不曉得教育部的這些長官們現在我們所培養的這些孩子你們設定他們未來在社會當中的那個競爭的生態是什麼生態\n477782\t478623\t我問過一個大學校長\n508802\t535575\t就是說不管這樣的一個結果我們對於高齡者因為沒有給他們一個好的引導所以台灣的高齡者現在平均臥床到8.9年高齡化的結果是倒下來年輕人因為培養出來以後他的戰場找不到自己的戰場所以不敢結婚結了婚不敢生小孩這就是少子化最大的生態的問題所以後來成為躺平族\n536195\t549843\t也就是說在現行的教育體制下我們整個的社會導向了就是一邊就是躺成一片一邊臥床一邊躺平那我覺得剛才提到的這個是一個大方向\n551428\t574866\t好那今天呢因為我要提了前面的論述太久就是其實60歲以後現在如果我們平均80幾歲了其實如果已經到60歲平均會到90也就是會展開二三十年之間的第三人生但是我們現在的這個第三人生缺乏描述沒有政策沒有產業沒有包括個人的都覺得退任我覺得這是教育部的責任\n576287\t600807\t所以我們現在怎麼樣來我們現在目前看到教育部的就是終身教育的這一塊終身教育這一塊我們現在的預算只有34億但是我們的60歲上有600萬人34億提供600萬人的教育平均每個高齡者一年的教育預算是台幣57塊\n603927\t630334\t這是什麼意思呢?這就表示我們不重視嘛應該是這樣子吧然後大家的推論就是高齡者對教育沒有興趣大家看看這就是我們終身教育的場景這種場景會有人有興趣嗎?所以當然然後說從大家的報名率我們的樂齡大學報名只有4000人600萬人當中只有4000人所以呢這一個\n632027\t646955\t這個就是我們過去對高齡者缺乏想像教育當中對高齡的歧視缺乏規劃缺乏想像到形塑在我們的政策跟我們的預算編制當中都非常的偏差\n648956\t667995\t這裡提出來 其實第一人生進入第二人生 這18歲要進大學嘛 對不對 這很正常那為什麼第二人生進入第三人生就不用進大學呢 我們可不可以用大學來取代養老院其實這個是充滿生機 教育部現在最大的煩惱是因為少子化 所以很多大學要關門嘛\n669696\t695747\t但事實上這個600萬的我們稱叫壯世代的這一群人人生最大的遺憾就是沒有進大學因為那時候大學錄取率很低教育部要不要考慮來規劃讓這些人能夠進大學那不要認為說他們對大學對讀書沒興趣是因為課程設計太爛如何在第三人生繼續能夠很豐富能夠成功我跟你講\n696807\t699509\t希望這個部長,因為不好意思我知道部長有很多話要講,就是\n717421\t720422\t謝謝委員那一次前幾天拜會委員聽委員在談壯世代的這個整個構想我怕你那個專書我比較快速的瀏覽我發現\n743150\t743171\t韓國瑜\n758932\t758952\t謝謝部長。\n","txt":"委員好抱歉第一次我把人生第一次的質詢獻給教育部長我最尊敬的教育部長因為在我中學的時候就讀了一本書叫《西曹》\n教育部長蔣孟林我看了好感動這本書對我人生影響很大而且我就一直非常敬佩教育部長\n那就是在一個國家在當時民國初年的時候在面臨的這個西學東學就是國家前途國家到底我們的文化我們的價值觀那這一些到底要何去何從的時候那有一個高度那一個教育家來思考因為教育的工作是在做什麼\n部長覺得教育的工作忠實?我個人對教育的因為我本人一路都是教育人真的教育是培養一個國家裡面讓受教者從人到人才那人的概念裡面更希望每一個有各種不同的專長但他也能夠各式其所\n每一個時代每一個\n部長,任務都不太一樣。當時的任務,西朝也不會是現在的任務了。看台灣的前途,往前30年台灣最重要的一件事情就是民主化。部長認同嗎?是。民主化很重要。但是我覺得民主化現在大概完成了。\n台灣現在人民為主這不太大的問題啦所以現在也不要一直整天太政治化搞太多民主教育就要回歸教育的本務在之前的教育部長培養我們國人的民主概念我覺得也非常認同但是往後看30年台灣最重要的事情是什麼\n部長覺得往後因為這個就是目標喔這目標如果是模糊的國家戰略目標就模糊教育目標就模糊那整天不曉得在幹什麼\n部長覺得未來30年最重要的是什麼?\n委員會議員\n台大教授陳佳森E&B的教授他跟我溝通他說現在其實在我們很多的知識系統上面都面臨到必須要做認知革命\n也就是我們的認知系統應該要翻新所以剛才比如說這個我們一般約定俗稱會稱50歲叫什麼半白老翁對不對那60稱什麼花甲老翁我們的成語嘛媒體好像還都是這樣寫那部長是自己覺得自己是花甲老翁嗎\n如果以過去大家留下刻板印象所以這個有問題嘛 這有問題但是呢 這個影響到國人欸 我們整個的社會就不要小看這個 這也不是一個笑話 不是一個成語 這就是我們這個社會現在的一個價值系統\n我今天要談的重點就是說從教育部的觀念我們怎麼樣面對60歲以後的人\n現在60歲以後在台灣現在有多少人呢?部長知道嗎?以目前來講大概是500萬左右600萬已經到600了大概600萬因為它一直在增加啦對一直在增加台灣進入高齡化社會現在台灣人因為都要領老所以我們平均退休是60.3歲所以很早就要退休了那退休了以後要追求什麼?請問部長你知道嗎?退休以後要追求什麼?\n如果以現在平均壽命已經到80歲這樣的甚至以後還會再增加這個從退休到這個階段\n其實這方面能夠讓我們說教廉長者先不要用哪個名詞其實在怎麼樣的去不管對自己的興趣也好或自己的專長能力各方面能夠再有更延續的這個去發展自己的自我肯定價值我覺得這是必要的對 是這樣子所以部長是認同的因為目前我們的系統當中認為退休以後就是\n遊山玩水和你弄孫另外,孩子年輕人的教育\n我們現在年輕的教育很重要就是培養出來以後要知道他們在什麼環境生存培養他剛才講的就是培養人才能夠適應環境在未來能夠成為國家棟樑明年畢業的孩子跨出校園他踏出這個社會台灣就進入超高齡社會了五個人就有一個人超過65歲\n2034年大概這孩子嘛在10年後這孩子30出頭了應該人生開始要起步嘛32例台灣一半人口已經超過50歲了2040年台灣65歲以上人占人口的三分之一也就是說這個孩子是在的一生都在什麼社會高齡社會裡面\n請問我不曉得教育部的這些長官們現在我們所培養的這些孩子你們設定他們未來在社會當中的那個競爭的生態是什麼生態\n我問過一個大學校長\n就是說不管這樣的一個結果我們對於高齡者因為沒有給他們一個好的引導所以台灣的高齡者現在平均臥床到8.9年高齡化的結果是倒下來年輕人因為培養出來以後他的戰場找不到自己的戰場所以不敢結婚結了婚不敢生小孩這就是少子化最大的生態的問題所以後來成為躺平族\n也就是說在現行的教育體制下我們整個的社會導向了就是一邊就是躺成一片一邊臥床一邊躺平那我覺得剛才提到的這個是一個大方向\n好那今天呢因為我要提了前面的論述太久就是其實60歲以後現在如果我們平均80幾歲了其實如果已經到60歲平均會到90也就是會展開二三十年之間的第三人生但是我們現在的這個第三人生缺乏描述沒有政策沒有產業沒有包括個人的都覺得退任我覺得這是教育部的責任\n所以我們現在怎麼樣來我們現在目前看到教育部的就是終身教育的這一塊終身教育這一塊我們現在的預算只有34億但是我們的60歲上有600萬人34億提供600萬人的教育平均每個高齡者一年的教育預算是台幣57塊\n這是什麼意思呢?這就表示我們不重視嘛應該是這樣子吧然後大家的推論就是高齡者對教育沒有興趣大家看看這就是我們終身教育的場景這種場景會有人有興趣嗎?所以當然然後說從大家的報名率我們的樂齡大學報名只有4000人600萬人當中只有4000人所以呢這一個\n這個就是我們過去對高齡者缺乏想像教育當中對高齡的歧視缺乏規劃缺乏想像到形塑在我們的政策跟我們的預算編制當中都非常的偏差\n這裡提出來 其實第一人生進入第二人生 這18歲要進大學嘛 對不對 這很正常那為什麼第二人生進入第三人生就不用進大學呢 我們可不可以用大學來取代養老院其實這個是充滿生機 教育部現在最大的煩惱是因為少子化 所以很多大學要關門嘛\n但事實上這個600萬的我們稱叫壯世代的這一群人人生最大的遺憾就是沒有進大學因為那時候大學錄取率很低教育部要不要考慮來規劃讓這些人能夠進大學那不要認為說他們對大學對讀書沒興趣是因為課程設計太爛如何在第三人生繼續能夠很豐富能夠成功我跟你講\n希望這個部長,因為不好意思我知道部長有很多話要講,就是\n謝謝委員那一次前幾天拜會委員聽委員在談壯世代的這個整個構想我怕你那個專書我比較快速的瀏覽我發現\n韓國瑜\n謝謝部長。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:26.086 --> 00:45.760\n委員好抱歉第一次我把人生第一次的質詢獻給教育部長我最尊敬的教育部長因為在我中學的時候就讀了一本書叫《西曹》\n\n00:48.691 --> 01:00.575\n教育部長蔣孟林我看了好感動這本書對我人生影響很大而且我就一直非常敬佩教育部長\n\n01:02.156 --> 01:30.341\n那就是在一個國家在當時民國初年的時候在面臨的這個西學東學就是國家前途國家到底我們的文化我們的價值觀那這一些到底要何去何從的時候那有一個高度那一個教育家來思考因為教育的工作是在做什麼\n\n01:31.940 --> 01:56.788\n部長覺得教育的工作忠實?我個人對教育的因為我本人一路都是教育人真的教育是培養一個國家裡面讓受教者從人到人才那人的概念裡面更希望每一個有各種不同的專長但他也能夠各式其所\n\n01:57.188 --> 01:57.368\n每一個時代每一個\n\n02:11.721 --> 02:34.138\n部長,任務都不太一樣。當時的任務,西朝也不會是現在的任務了。看台灣的前途,往前30年台灣最重要的一件事情就是民主化。部長認同嗎?是。民主化很重要。但是我覺得民主化現在大概完成了。\n\n02:34.895 --> 02:58.135\n台灣現在人民為主這不太大的問題啦所以現在也不要一直整天太政治化搞太多民主教育就要回歸教育的本務在之前的教育部長培養我們國人的民主概念我覺得也非常認同但是往後看30年台灣最重要的事情是什麼\n\n03:00.100 --> 03:09.347\n部長覺得往後因為這個就是目標喔這目標如果是模糊的國家戰略目標就模糊教育目標就模糊那整天不曉得在幹什麼\n\n03:11.410 --> 03:13.212\n部長覺得未來30年最重要的是什麼?\n\n03:33.593 --> 03:33.613\n委員會議員\n\n04:04.088 --> 04:17.379\n台大教授陳佳森E&B的教授他跟我溝通他說現在其實在我們很多的知識系統上面都面臨到必須要做認知革命\n\n04:18.220 --> 04:41.920\n也就是我們的認知系統應該要翻新所以剛才比如說這個我們一般約定俗稱會稱50歲叫什麼半白老翁對不對那60稱什麼花甲老翁我們的成語嘛媒體好像還都是這樣寫那部長是自己覺得自己是花甲老翁嗎\n\n04:44.258 --> 04:57.692\n如果以過去大家留下刻板印象所以這個有問題嘛這有問題但是呢這個影響到國人欸我們整個的社會就不要小看這個這也不是一個笑話不是一個成語這就是我們這個社會現在的一個價值系統\n\n05:03.769 --> 05:09.912\n我今天要談的重點就是說從教育部的觀念我們怎麼樣面對60歲以後的人\n\n05:19.732 --> 05:44.167\n現在60歲以後在台灣現在有多少人呢?部長知道嗎?以目前來講大概是500萬左右600萬已經到600了大概600萬因為它一直在增加啦對一直在增加台灣進入高齡化社會現在台灣人因為都要領老所以我們平均退休是60.3歲所以很早就要退休了那退休了以後要追求什麼?請問部長你知道嗎?退休以後要追求什麼?\n\n05:49.505 --> 05:51.266\n如果以現在平均壽命已經到80歲這樣的甚至以後還會再增加這個從退休到這個階段\n\n06:12.656 --> 06:33.703\n其實這方面能夠讓我們說教廉長者先不要用哪個名詞其實在怎麼樣的去不管對自己的興趣也好或自己的專長能力各方面能夠再有更延續的這個去發展自己的自我肯定價值我覺得這是必要的對是這樣子所以部長是認同的因為目前我們的系統當中認為退休以後就是\n\n06:42.346 --> 06:48.751\n遊山玩水和你弄孫另外,孩子年輕人的教育\n\n06:51.065 --> 07:17.298\n我們現在年輕的教育很重要就是培養出來以後要知道他們在什麼環境生存培養他剛才講的就是培養人才能夠適應環境在未來能夠成為國家棟樑明年畢業的孩子跨出校園他踏出這個社會台灣就進入超高齡社會了五個人就有一個人超過65歲\n\n07:20.872 --> 07:43.274\n2034年大概這孩子嘛在10年後這孩子30出頭了應該人生開始要起步嘛32例台灣一半人口已經超過50歲了2040年台灣65歲以上人占人口的三分之一也就是說這個孩子是在的一生都在什麼社會高齡社會裡面\n\n07:45.110 --> 07:55.182\n請問我不曉得教育部的這些長官們現在我們所培養的這些孩子你們設定他們未來在社會當中的那個競爭的生態是什麼生態\n\n07:57.782 --> 07:58.623\n我問過一個大學校長\n\n08:28.802 --> 08:55.575\n就是說不管這樣的一個結果我們對於高齡者因為沒有給他們一個好的引導所以台灣的高齡者現在平均臥床到8.9年高齡化的結果是倒下來年輕人因為培養出來以後他的戰場找不到自己的戰場所以不敢結婚結了婚不敢生小孩這就是少子化最大的生態的問題所以後來成為躺平族\n\n08:56.195 --> 09:09.843\n也就是說在現行的教育體制下我們整個的社會導向了就是一邊就是躺成一片一邊臥床一邊躺平那我覺得剛才提到的這個是一個大方向\n\n09:11.428 --> 09:34.866\n好那今天呢因為我要提了前面的論述太久就是其實60歲以後現在如果我們平均80幾歲了其實如果已經到60歲平均會到90也就是會展開二三十年之間的第三人生但是我們現在的這個第三人生缺乏描述沒有政策沒有產業沒有包括個人的都覺得退任我覺得這是教育部的責任\n\n09:36.287 --> 10:00.807\n所以我們現在怎麼樣來我們現在目前看到教育部的就是終身教育的這一塊終身教育這一塊我們現在的預算只有34億但是我們的60歲上有600萬人34億提供600萬人的教育平均每個高齡者一年的教育預算是台幣57塊\n\n10:03.927 --> 10:30.334\n這是什麼意思呢?這就表示我們不重視嘛應該是這樣子吧然後大家的推論就是高齡者對教育沒有興趣大家看看這就是我們終身教育的場景這種場景會有人有興趣嗎?所以當然然後說從大家的報名率我們的樂齡大學報名只有4000人600萬人當中只有4000人所以呢這一個\n\n10:32.027 --> 10:46.955\n這個就是我們過去對高齡者缺乏想像教育當中對高齡的歧視缺乏規劃缺乏想像到形塑在我們的政策跟我們的預算編制當中都非常的偏差\n\n10:48.956 --> 11:07.995\n這裡提出來其實第一人生進入第二人生這18歲要進大學嘛對不對這很正常那為什麼第二人生進入第三人生就不用進大學呢我們可不可以用大學來取代養老院其實這個是充滿生機教育部現在最大的煩惱是因為少子化所以很多大學要關門嘛\n\n11:09.696 --> 11:35.747\n但事實上這個600萬的我們稱叫壯世代的這一群人人生最大的遺憾就是沒有進大學因為那時候大學錄取率很低教育部要不要考慮來規劃讓這些人能夠進大學那不要認為說他們對大學對讀書沒興趣是因為課程設計太爛如何在第三人生繼續能夠很豐富能夠成功我跟你講\n\n11:36.807 --> 11:39.509\n希望這個部長,因為不好意思我知道部長有很多話要講,就是\n\n11:57.421 --> 12:00.422\n謝謝委員那一次前幾天拜會委員聽委員在談壯世代的這個整個構想我怕你那個專書我比較快速的瀏覽我發現\n\n12:23.150 --> 12:23.171\n韓國瑜\n\n12:38.932 --> 12:38.952\n謝謝部長。\n\n","segments":[{"start":26.086,"end":45.76,"text":"委員好抱歉第一次我把人生第一次的質詢獻給教育部長我最尊敬的教育部長因為在我中學的時候就讀了一本書叫《西曹》"},{"start":48.691,"end":60.575,"text":"教育部長蔣孟林我看了好感動這本書對我人生影響很大而且我就一直非常敬佩教育部長"},{"start":62.156,"end":90.341,"text":"那就是在一個國家在當時民國初年的時候在面臨的這個西學東學就是國家前途國家到底我們的文化我們的價值觀那這一些到底要何去何從的時候那有一個高度那一個教育家來思考因為教育的工作是在做什麼"},{"start":91.94,"end":116.788,"text":"部長覺得教育的工作忠實?我個人對教育的因為我本人一路都是教育人真的教育是培養一個國家裡面讓受教者從人到人才那人的概念裡面更希望每一個有各種不同的專長但他也能夠各式其所"},{"start":117.188,"end":117.368,"text":"每一個時代每一個"},{"start":131.721,"end":154.138,"text":"部長,任務都不太一樣。當時的任務,西朝也不會是現在的任務了。看台灣的前途,往前30年台灣最重要的一件事情就是民主化。部長認同嗎?是。民主化很重要。但是我覺得民主化現在大概完成了。"},{"start":154.895,"end":178.135,"text":"台灣現在人民為主這不太大的問題啦所以現在也不要一直整天太政治化搞太多民主教育就要回歸教育的本務在之前的教育部長培養我們國人的民主概念我覺得也非常認同但是往後看30年台灣最重要的事情是什麼"},{"start":180.1,"end":189.347,"text":"部長覺得往後因為這個就是目標喔這目標如果是模糊的國家戰略目標就模糊教育目標就模糊那整天不曉得在幹什麼"},{"start":191.41,"end":193.212,"text":"部長覺得未來30年最重要的是什麼?"},{"start":213.593,"end":213.613,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":244.088,"end":257.379,"text":"台大教授陳佳森E&B的教授他跟我溝通他說現在其實在我們很多的知識系統上面都面臨到必須要做認知革命"},{"start":258.22,"end":281.92,"text":"也就是我們的認知系統應該要翻新所以剛才比如說這個我們一般約定俗稱會稱50歲叫什麼半白老翁對不對那60稱什麼花甲老翁我們的成語嘛媒體好像還都是這樣寫那部長是自己覺得自己是花甲老翁嗎"},{"start":284.258,"end":297.692,"text":"如果以過去大家留下刻板印象所以這個有問題嘛 這有問題但是呢 這個影響到國人欸 我們整個的社會就不要小看這個 這也不是一個笑話 不是一個成語 這就是我們這個社會現在的一個價值系統"},{"start":303.769,"end":309.912,"text":"我今天要談的重點就是說從教育部的觀念我們怎麼樣面對60歲以後的人"},{"start":319.732,"end":344.167,"text":"現在60歲以後在台灣現在有多少人呢?部長知道嗎?以目前來講大概是500萬左右600萬已經到600了大概600萬因為它一直在增加啦對一直在增加台灣進入高齡化社會現在台灣人因為都要領老所以我們平均退休是60.3歲所以很早就要退休了那退休了以後要追求什麼?請問部長你知道嗎?退休以後要追求什麼?"},{"start":349.505,"end":351.266,"text":"如果以現在平均壽命已經到80歲這樣的甚至以後還會再增加這個從退休到這個階段"},{"start":372.656,"end":393.703,"text":"其實這方面能夠讓我們說教廉長者先不要用哪個名詞其實在怎麼樣的去不管對自己的興趣也好或自己的專長能力各方面能夠再有更延續的這個去發展自己的自我肯定價值我覺得這是必要的對 是這樣子所以部長是認同的因為目前我們的系統當中認為退休以後就是"},{"start":402.346,"end":408.751,"text":"遊山玩水和你弄孫另外,孩子年輕人的教育"},{"start":411.065,"end":437.298,"text":"我們現在年輕的教育很重要就是培養出來以後要知道他們在什麼環境生存培養他剛才講的就是培養人才能夠適應環境在未來能夠成為國家棟樑明年畢業的孩子跨出校園他踏出這個社會台灣就進入超高齡社會了五個人就有一個人超過65歲"},{"start":440.872,"end":463.274,"text":"2034年大概這孩子嘛在10年後這孩子30出頭了應該人生開始要起步嘛32例台灣一半人口已經超過50歲了2040年台灣65歲以上人占人口的三分之一也就是說這個孩子是在的一生都在什麼社會高齡社會裡面"},{"start":465.11,"end":475.182,"text":"請問我不曉得教育部的這些長官們現在我們所培養的這些孩子你們設定他們未來在社會當中的那個競爭的生態是什麼生態"},{"start":477.782,"end":478.623,"text":"我問過一個大學校長"},{"start":508.802,"end":535.575,"text":"就是說不管這樣的一個結果我們對於高齡者因為沒有給他們一個好的引導所以台灣的高齡者現在平均臥床到8.9年高齡化的結果是倒下來年輕人因為培養出來以後他的戰場找不到自己的戰場所以不敢結婚結了婚不敢生小孩這就是少子化最大的生態的問題所以後來成為躺平族"},{"start":536.195,"end":549.843,"text":"也就是說在現行的教育體制下我們整個的社會導向了就是一邊就是躺成一片一邊臥床一邊躺平那我覺得剛才提到的這個是一個大方向"},{"start":551.428,"end":574.866,"text":"好那今天呢因為我要提了前面的論述太久就是其實60歲以後現在如果我們平均80幾歲了其實如果已經到60歲平均會到90也就是會展開二三十年之間的第三人生但是我們現在的這個第三人生缺乏描述沒有政策沒有產業沒有包括個人的都覺得退任我覺得這是教育部的責任"},{"start":576.287,"end":600.807,"text":"所以我們現在怎麼樣來我們現在目前看到教育部的就是終身教育的這一塊終身教育這一塊我們現在的預算只有34億但是我們的60歲上有600萬人34億提供600萬人的教育平均每個高齡者一年的教育預算是台幣57塊"},{"start":603.927,"end":630.334,"text":"這是什麼意思呢?這就表示我們不重視嘛應該是這樣子吧然後大家的推論就是高齡者對教育沒有興趣大家看看這就是我們終身教育的場景這種場景會有人有興趣嗎?所以當然然後說從大家的報名率我們的樂齡大學報名只有4000人600萬人當中只有4000人所以呢這一個"},{"start":632.027,"end":646.955,"text":"這個就是我們過去對高齡者缺乏想像教育當中對高齡的歧視缺乏規劃缺乏想像到形塑在我們的政策跟我們的預算編制當中都非常的偏差"},{"start":648.956,"end":667.995,"text":"這裡提出來 其實第一人生進入第二人生 這18歲要進大學嘛 對不對 這很正常那為什麼第二人生進入第三人生就不用進大學呢 我們可不可以用大學來取代養老院其實這個是充滿生機 教育部現在最大的煩惱是因為少子化 所以很多大學要關門嘛"},{"start":669.696,"end":695.747,"text":"但事實上這個600萬的我們稱叫壯世代的這一群人人生最大的遺憾就是沒有進大學因為那時候大學錄取率很低教育部要不要考慮來規劃讓這些人能夠進大學那不要認為說他們對大學對讀書沒興趣是因為課程設計太爛如何在第三人生繼續能夠很豐富能夠成功我跟你講"},{"start":696.807,"end":699.509,"text":"希望這個部長,因為不好意思我知道部長有很多話要講,就是"},{"start":717.421,"end":720.422,"text":"謝謝委員那一次前幾天拜會委員聽委員在談壯世代的這個整個構想我怕你那個專書我比較快速的瀏覽我發現"},{"start":743.15,"end":743.171,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":758.932,"end":758.952,"text":"謝謝部長。"}]}}}}