{"id":149266,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149266","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd14f6ee29dae2267e2dd7be9832461c05f8ba9b0039caa7a6ae209839394804ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"12:12:47 - 12:28:06","影片長度":"00:15:19","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":919,"end_time":"2024-03-04T12:28:06+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T12:12:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":783,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（12時12分）主席還有司法院的各位先進，還有我們本院的各位同仁，大家好。我先提一個很簡單的東西，因為我自己在當檢察官的時候，對於一個東西我長期以來都有一點想法，但是基於審判獨立，我們要給予完全的尊重，所以在這邊我想要提一下，因為剛剛有其他委員也有提過，就是我國的量刑真的是太輕了，我記得10年前，那時候還有在提一些量刑因子的設計，但是後來好像沒有很仔細地施行、好像沒有成功，我想要提的是，因為最近有很多的詐騙案件，剛剛別的委員也有提到，就是詐騙案件審判的刑度都過輕的問題，但是我也知道這個原因其實是導因於幾乎所有的被告都是車手或者是人頭帳戶，所以本來對於車手和人頭帳戶，他的量刑就不可能多高，所以從數字上面來看，法官對於詐欺案件的量刑看起來都很低。但這個部分我是有一個建議，就是司法院也要為自己辯護一下，因為我常常看到報紙什麼的都有寫到這一塊，但是它並不會就一個平衡的角度去說這個，這個是不是也會導致民眾對於司法的信任度降低？尤其現在詐欺案件是民怨第一名，如果我們對民怨第一名的案件，都讓人民有那麼多在量刑上面的質疑，我想可能對司法的信任度也是會有一點影響，這部分可能就麻煩大家幫忙，看看能夠怎麼處理。","再來就是我有另外一個建議，除了剛剛提到各種刑度的量刑都比較輕之外，因為我發現法官的習慣都是從最低刑度開始往上加，加1個月、2個月，當然有一些法官他可能正義感爆棚，他就是會重判，但是通常二審都不會支持他，這一塊可能也是要麻煩你們能夠注意一下。","再來還有一個是我自己當檢察官時最痛苦的一個點，就是承認跟否認的刑度真的太近了，我們看一些其他國家的例子，其實他們把承認跟否認的刑度拉得非常大，他不要讓一般人有這個僥倖說我可以去否認，反正否認到最後，判了也沒有比較重，為什麼會提這個？這不單是從被告的角度出發，其實就法官、檢察官的工作量來看也是差很多，以檢察官來說好了，被告坦承跟不坦承，如果刑度差不多，每一個來都否認，所以我們花非常多的偵查資源在處理這些事情上面；法官也是一樣，他在檢察官那邊認了，他到一審那邊又開始翻，一樣的，法官也辛苦，公訴檢察官也辛苦，法官的判決書寫起來又更長了。所以如果我們總是一直在實務上面把承認跟否認的刑度都拉得那麼近，我個人覺得是在找我們自己的麻煩，把承認跟否認的刑度拉大，我覺得這個在法理上面也沒有任何的問題，畢竟我是檢方出身的，我絕對尊重司法的獨立審判，我不會命令、要求法官一定要怎麼做，我們完全尊重，但是我們真的要呼籲，把承認跟否認的刑度拉開來，不要讓一些犯罪的人有機可乘、能夠僥倖，今天你如果犯罪了，你敢跟我否認，那將來你面對的可能就是一個比較重的刑度，這個再麻煩各位司法院的同仁能夠宣導一下這一塊。","再來我想要請教秘書長的是，秘書長你知道我們全臺灣現在最大的律師事務所是哪一間？你知道嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是理律吧！"],["吳委員宗憲：其實我跟各位說，從那個結構看起來是理律，但是事實上很多人都戲稱是法扶基金會，那是現在全臺灣最大的律師事務所，而且它的業績也是最好。我看了一下一個數據，就是從113年開始，其實我們的預算比前一年度又增加了很多，我們113年的預算已經快到15億了。當然我們知道法扶它的成立重點其實是對於一些無資力者，我們希望他在法庭訴訟上面能夠得到足夠的保障，但是我們花了那麼多錢，到底有沒有做到這樣的效果？我這邊目前找得到的數據大概是111年還有到112年的某些月份，是不是麻煩司法院就法扶的成效還有一些相關的數據能夠提供給我們辦公室，這部分可以嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：沒問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝秘書長。再來，我剛有提到，其實我們的法扶，有一個部分就是它無須審查資力就准予提供法扶服務的案件，依照我手上的數據來看，到111年的核准率是66.46%，如果我們往前面、從104年到111年來看，平均是62.5%，也就是說，其實滿高比例都是無須審查資力去進行，就是提供他這方面的扶助。當然對於一些中低收入戶我們當然覺得有此必要，可是我們有沒有去看一下，在重罪的強制辯護案件裡面，是不是裡面有穿插了很多其實他是有足夠資力的，然後我們卻浪費了司法資源去提供扶助？畢竟法扶主要的資金來源是司法院的捐助，如果基金會的主要來源是司法院的捐助，那這些錢是全民的錢，既然是全民的錢，在使用上面我們還是必須要謹慎一下，所以麻煩你們去分析重罪的強制辯護案件，在未審查他資力的狀況下，是不是有很多人其實他是有足夠資力的？所以這一塊麻煩你們能夠注意，而且立法院已經好多次在預算的主決議中都有下過這樣的主決議，請你們要仔細地審查這一塊，這個部分是不是可以在一個月內提供我們一些資料？就是有沒有必要修法或是做怎麼樣的篩選，在一個月內能夠給我們一份資料說明，不知道可不可以，可以嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：可以。"],["高廳長玉舜：針對剛剛委員關注的這個部分，關於強制辯護的部分，我這邊有一些簡單的數據，在此簡單先跟委員做一個口頭的說明，我們看法扶基金會111年度的年度報告書裡面，准予扶助的一般案件總共是5萬6,718件，其中強制辯護案件是1萬7,166件，大概是占30.27%；其中受扶助人是中低收入戶的，總共是1萬1,172件，大概占19.7%；受扶助人他是屬於身心障礙者的話，是有9,916件，大概是占17.48%，這一些類型大概比較可能會被認定是經濟上或社會上的弱勢族群，而且是法律上規定應該給予強制辯護的案件。","另外，針對其他強制辯護的部分，我們其實也有考慮到國家的資源有限，所以我們司法院已經有函請各法院在辦理刑事強制辯護案件的時候，希望能夠初步的先審查一下當事人的資力狀況，如果認為需要轉介法扶的話，再轉介給法扶，不然的話就儘量指定公辯或者是義辯來做辦理，這是目前辦理的狀況，先跟委員報告，謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，這部分還是麻煩一下你們能夠提供資料給我們。","再來，其實不是只有重罪，像107年1月1號我們有實施羈押庭強制辯護？其實這個讓法扶的案件量又再擴增了，法扶從90幾年開始到現在，應該是90幾年嘛。"],["高廳長玉舜：104年的修法。"],["吳委員宗憲：對。","其實我們一直在擴充那個需求的對象，司法院這樣受得了嗎？而且這些錢都是國家的，其實我覺得各個環節大家都在缺錢，如果在法扶這一塊我們支出這麼多費用的情況下，到底有沒有辦法達到一個效果？這是我們在懷疑的，所以我們希望就篩選的部分能夠更加仔細一點。","另外還有一個，常常有很多案子在他接受法扶之後，後來又突然說他不需要了，我手上的數據顯示，從105年到111年，放棄律師陪偵的比例快七成，如果是原住民的話，甚至有到九成，是不是這個部分可以稍微研究一下是怎麼一回事？也就是說，既然花了這個錢讓律師去做陪偵，後來到底為什麼他又不要了，是不是我們法扶出了什麼狀況？","最後一點時間我想跟各位提的是國民法官的制度，當然我知道這個是蔡英文政府上任之後積極推動的，但是這個東西到底對國家有沒有意義？其實我當檢察官的時候，心裡一直在存疑，到底這只是一個政治上面的操作還是真正能夠讓人民開始去信任司法。","國民法官的制度好或不好我現在就先不論，但是我想跟各位討論的是，為了因應這個國民法官的制度，檢方都是派出第一流的人才，我不知道各位知不知道這件事，所以通常都是很好的主任檢察官甚至在公訴非常強的，我們會派去國民法官的法庭，尤其他們在審理的通常是重大案件。","好，在檢方是這麼強大的戰力的情況下，那律師呢？因為我們現在法扶的最高酬金只有7萬5,000塊，我爸爸也是律師，以我對於律師收酬金的瞭解，這個錢根本請不到怎麼樣……這個錢，然後去面對這種重大案件，你叫一個律師來做這個事情，其實從經濟理性上面來看是違反的，所以這塊可能也是要麻煩各位看看能不能做一個研究，這到底要怎麼處理？是不是要設置國民法官的法扶專職團隊還是公設辯護人？因為你今天搞了這個制度出來，這制度到底對國家好不好你也搞不清楚，因為當初並沒有做審慎評估就貿然地推動，我看很多國家他們法庭制度的更改，都是有非常長時間的研究，之後才敢去推動，但是我們這邊就是隨便開個什麼司改會議，幾個月然後就搞定了全臺灣的司法。各位都是法律專家，我不敢說我是法律專家，但各位一定是，你們一定很清楚這樣的改法到底是真的在改還是假的在改，我想大家心裡都有一把尺，但是不管怎麼樣這個制度已經出來了，我們現在要怎麼去因應這個問題？你不能用非常少的錢去請一個律師，然後去幫忙這些人，你說這個叫法扶，我覺得這只是應付而已，這不是一個真的社會救助的制度。好，這一塊也麻煩你們研究看看能不能給我們一些數據或資料，這大概需要多久的時間？"],["高廳長玉舜：委員好。剛剛您針對法扶關於國法案件在辯護的部分，你有提出一些關注的意見，這部分其實我們目前已經在做的，在此簡單先跟您報告，針對專職律師的部分，我們認為可能需要檢討專職律師，目前其實他主要是以承辦訴訟案件為主，我們會檢討目前基金會對於專職律師在運用上，是不是可以更集中讓他們來專注於訴訟案件，我們目前有跟法扶基金會進行討論，法扶基金會這邊他們有同意在113年會成立一個刑事辯護中心的任務編組，這個編組的成員主要就是由專家學者以及負有刑事辯護經驗的律師來組成，他們也可以參與辯護，甚至做一些經驗傳承的工作。","另外在114年我們規劃要成立刑事辯護中心，希望由專職律師來加入成為種子，然後結合現有這些法扶的律師一起來做一個團隊的辯護，當然這方面我們也會加強他們的專業訓練，然後提升他們國法辯護的品質，目前簡單先跟您說明到這裡。"],["吳委員宗憲：但還是要麻煩你們給我一個回復。","最後，拜託你們真的要考量刑度的問題，因為在座也有我司法官同期的同學在這邊，真的要考量承認、否認的刑度是不是要建議法官？我是為了全國的檢察官、法官甚至是民眾，在此跟各位拜託這件事情，好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳宗憲委員的質詢。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：我們接下來麻煩鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":384,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","翁曉玲","黃國昌","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","柯建銘","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃珊珊"],"page_start":329,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130501_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130501_00019"}},"transcript":{"id":"149266","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149266","tool":"pyannote","id":"149266-pyannote"},"job_id":"5YGGRfe70O3SVOtT","queued_at":"2024-06-02 12:13:20","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-02 12:14:47","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149266"},{"time":"2024-06-02 12:14:48","msg":"downloading https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd14f6ee29dae2267e2dd7be9832461c05e9f061460307c7a48c21961156552d785ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"},{"time":"2024-06-02 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\"沒\", \"start\": 47.088, \"end\": 47.228, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 47.228, \"end\": 47.408, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 47.408, \"end\": 47.909, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"仔\", \"start\": 47.909, \"end\": 48.269, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"細\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 48.269, \"end\": 48.469, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 48.469, \"end\": 49.53, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 49.53, \"end\": 49.891, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"施\", \"start\": 49.891, \"end\": 50.151, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 50.151, \"end\": 50.731, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 50.731, \"end\": 50.911, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 50.911, \"end\": 51.352, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 51.352, \"end\": 51.492, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 51.492, \"end\": 51.632, 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\"到\", \"start\": 60.059, \"end\": 60.259, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 60.259, \"end\": 60.379, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 60.379, \"end\": 61.721, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"詐\"}, {\"word\": \"騙\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 61.721, \"end\": 61.881, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 61.881, \"end\": 62.001, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"輕\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 62.001, \"end\": 62.021, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 63.562, \"end\": 64.502, \"text\": \"李卓人議員\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"李\", \"start\": 63.562, \"end\": 63.642, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"卓\", \"start\": 63.642, \"end\": 64.482, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 64.482, \"end\": 64.502, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"員\"}]}, {\"start\": 81.127, \"end\": 81.848, \"text\": \"司法院秘書長列席\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 81.127, \"end\": 81.147, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 81.147, \"end\": 81.207, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 81.207, \"end\": 81.508, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"秘\", \"start\": 81.508, \"end\": 81.728, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"列\", \"start\": 81.728, \"end\": 81.828, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 81.828, \"end\": 81.848, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 95.021, \"end\": 120.011, \"text\": \"因為我常常看到報紙什麼都有寫這一塊但是他並不會一個平衡的去說這個那這個會不會也導致的民眾對於司法的信任度降低尤其現在詐欺案件是民怨第一名嗎那如果我們對於民怨第一名的案件都讓人們有那麼多在量刑上面的質疑的話我想可能對司法的信任度也是會有一點影響那這部分可能就麻煩\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 95.021, \"end\": 96.001, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 96.001, \"end\": 96.162, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 96.162, \"end\": 96.282, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 96.282, \"end\": 96.462, \"score\": 0.656}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 96.462, \"end\": 96.642, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 96.642, \"end\": 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\"衡\", \"start\": 100.623, \"end\": 100.823, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 100.823, \"end\": 100.983, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 100.983, \"end\": 101.984, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 101.984, \"end\": 102.484, \"score\": 0.763}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 102.484, \"end\": 102.644, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 102.644, \"end\": 103.224, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"導\"}, {\"word\": \"致\", \"start\": 103.224, \"end\": 103.404, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 103.404, \"end\": 103.584, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 103.584, \"end\": 104.225, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"眾\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 104.225, \"end\": 104.425, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 104.425, \"end\": 104.645, \"score\": 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0.781}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 119.591, \"end\": 119.731, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 119.731, \"end\": 119.851, \"score\": 0.535}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 119.851, \"end\": 119.991, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"麻\", \"start\": 119.991, \"end\": 120.011, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"煩\"}]}, {\"start\": 120.691, \"end\": 120.911, \"text\": \"吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"吳\"}, {\"word\": \"宗\", \"start\": 120.691, \"end\": 120.891, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"吳\"}, {\"word\": \"宗\", \"start\": 120.891, \"end\": 120.911, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"員\"}]}, {\"start\": 148.829, \"end\": 175.596, \"text\": \"那這一塊可能也是要麻煩你們能夠注意一下那再來還有一個是我自己當檢察官的時候最痛苦的一個點就是承認跟否認的行度真的太近了那我們看一些其他國家的例子其實他們把承認跟否認他的行度拉得非常大他不要讓一般人他有這個有這個僥倖說我可以去否認然後反正否認到最後\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 148.829, \"end\": 149.469, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"刑\", \"start\": 840.838, \"end\": 840.858, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 840.858, \"end\": 840.898, \"score\": 0.005}, {\"word\": \"辯\"}, {\"word\": \"護\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 840.898, \"end\": 840.918, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 840.918, \"end\": 840.938, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 840.938, \"end\": 840.958, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 840.958, \"end\": 841.058, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 841.058, \"end\": 841.078, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"編\"}, {\"word\": \"組\"}, {\"word\": \"吳\"}, {\"word\": \"宗\", \"start\": 860.672, \"end\": 860.692, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"麻\", \"start\": 880.186, \"end\": 880.367, \"score\": 0.669}, {\"word\": \"煩\"}, {\"word\": \"拜\", \"start\": 880.367, \"end\": 880.387, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"託\"}, {\"word\": \"吳\"}, {\"word\": \"宗\", \"start\": 899.73, \"end\": 899.95, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 899.95, \"end\": 899.97, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,275 --> 00:00:09,888\n主席還有司法院的各位先進還有我們本院的各位同仁大家好\n\n2\n00:00:11,541 --> 00:00:37,760\n我先提一個很簡單的東西就是因為我自己在當檢察官的時候我對一個東西我一直長期都有一點想法但是因為基於這個審判獨立我們要給予完全的尊重所以我想說我在這邊我想要提一下就是說剛剛有其他委員也有提過其實我國的量刑真的是太輕了那是不是\n\n3\n00:00:38,661 --> 00:01:02,021\n我記得10年前吧那時候還有在提一些量刑因子的設計但是後來沒有好像沒有沒有很仔細的那個那個施行嗎好像沒有成功那我想要提的就是因為最近有很多這種詐騙案件那剛剛別的委員也有提到就是詐騙案件過輕的\n\n4\n00:01:03,562 --> 00:01:04,502\n李卓人議員\n\n5\n00:01:21,127 --> 00:01:21,848\n司法院秘書長列席\n\n6\n00:01:35,021 --> 00:02:00,011\n因為我常常看到報紙什麼都有寫這一塊但是他並不會一個平衡的去說這個那這個會不會也導致的民眾對於司法的信任度降低尤其現在詐欺案件是民怨第一名嗎那如果我們對於民怨第一名的案件都讓人們有那麼多在量刑上面的質疑的話我想可能對司法的信任度也是會有一點影響那這部分可能就麻煩\n\n7\n00:02:00,691 --> 00:02:00,911\n吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員\n\n8\n00:02:28,829 --> 00:02:55,596\n那這一塊可能也是要麻煩你們能夠注意一下那再來還有一個是我自己當檢察官的時候最痛苦的一個點就是承認跟否認的行度真的太近了那我們看一些其他國家的例子其實他們把承認跟否認他的行度拉得非常大他不要讓一般人他有這個有這個僥倖說我可以去否認然後反正否認到最後\n\n9\n00:02:56,476 --> 00:02:56,776\n李卓人議員\n\n10\n00:03:17,372 --> 00:03:45,428\n那法官也是一樣他在檢察官那邊認了他到一審那邊又開始開始翻那一樣法官也辛苦公訴檢察官也辛苦那法官的判決書再寫起來又更長了所以如果我們一直總是實務上面把承認跟否認的刑度都那麼近我個人覺得是在找我們自己的麻煩那承認跟否認你把刑度拉大我覺得這個在法理上面也沒有任何的問題所以是不是\n\n11\n00:03:46,926 --> 00:04:11,978\n我是說我畢竟我是檢方出身的我絕對尊重那個司法的獨立審判我不會說命令要求怎麼樣法官一定要怎麼做我們完全尊重但是我們真的呼籲能夠把承認跟否認的刑度要把它拉開來不要讓一些犯罪的人有機可乘嘛能夠僥倖你今天如果你犯罪了你敢跟我否認那\n\n12\n00:04:13,098 --> 00:04:13,258\n律師事務所\n\n13\n00:04:35,119 --> 00:04:36,680\n立法院秘書長列席\n\n14\n00:04:54,650 --> 00:05:19,309\n所以說我看了一下一個數據就是從113年其實我們的預算又比前一年度又增加很多所以我們113年的這個預算已經到快15億了那也就是說當然啦我們知道法服它的成立是它的重點其實是對於一些無資歷者我們希望他在法庭訴訟上面能夠得到足夠的保障\n\n15\n00:05:19,989 --> 00:05:41,937\n但是呢我們花那麼多錢那我們到底有沒有做到這樣的效果那我這邊目前找得到的數據大概是111年還有到112年的某些月份那是不是能夠麻煩司法院呢能夠就法服的這個成效還有一些相關的數據能夠提供給我們辦公室\n\n16\n00:05:42,837 --> 00:05:46,300\n提供法服服務的案件目前如果依照我手上的數據來看\n\n17\n00:06:05,157 --> 00:06:05,177\n吳宗憲議員\n\n18\n00:06:17,330 --> 00:06:17,350\n吳宗憲議員\n\n19\n00:06:35,214 --> 00:06:35,734\n委員會主席\n\n20\n00:06:52,307 --> 00:07:12,938\n主要資金來源是司法院的捐助那基金會如果說主要司法院的捐助那這些錢是全民的錢那全民的錢我想說在使用上面我們還是必須要謹慎一下所以麻煩一下你們能夠去分析這個重罪的強制辯護這個案件是不是裡面\n\n21\n00:07:14,096 --> 00:07:16,197\n在一個月內提供一些資料有沒有必要修法或做怎麼樣的篩選\n\n22\n00:07:43,889 --> 00:08:08,221\n在一個月內能夠給我們一個資料說明這個報告可不可以可以嗎跟針對剛剛委員關注的這個部分關強制辯護的部分我這邊有個簡單的一些數據簡單先跟委員做一個口頭的說明大概我們從我們這個看這個法服基金會111年度的年度報告書裡面\n\n23\n00:08:09,321 --> 00:08:16,425\n大概準與輔助的一般案件總共是56,718件那其中強制辯護案件是17,166件大概是佔30.27%那其中受輔助人是中低收入戶的總共是11,172件大概佔19.70%那受輔助人他是屬於身心障礙的話\n\n24\n00:08:33,653 --> 00:08:33,673\n吳宗憲\n\n25\n00:08:54,191 --> 00:09:05,021\n其他的強制辯護的部分我們其實有考慮到國家的資源有限所以我們已經司法院已經有含請各法院在辦理形式強制辯護案件的時候希望能夠初步的先審查一下當事人的資歷狀況如果認為需要轉介法服的話再轉介給法服不然的話就盡量指定公辯或者是異辯來做辦理\n\n26\n00:09:18,172 --> 00:09:41,756\n這是目前辦理的狀況先跟委員報告那這部分就還是麻煩一下你們能夠提供我們資料那再來就是說其實不是只有這個重罪啦像什麼107年1月1號我們不是有實施這個家庭強制辯護嗎其實這個又讓這個法服的案件量又再擴增所以說這從法服90幾年開始到現在應該是90幾年嘛\n\n27\n00:09:48,201 --> 00:10:05,058\n對就是說其實我們一直在擴充那個需求的那個對象那這樣子司法院這樣受得了嗎而且這些錢都是國家的其實我覺得各個環節大家都在缺錢那如果我們在這個法服這一塊我們支出這麼多費用\n\n28\n00:10:06,459 --> 00:10:06,479\n吳宗憲議員\n\n29\n00:10:21,676 --> 00:10:38,545\n從來有很多案子啊接受法服之後他後來又突然又說他不需要了所以說在我手上的數據從105年到111年啊放棄律師陪偵的比例快七成那如果原住民的話甚至到九成\n\n30\n00:10:39,125 --> 00:10:39,506\n最後一點時間國民法官的制度\n\n31\n00:11:00,009 --> 00:11:15,491\n上任之後積極推動的但是這個東西到底有沒有意義對國家有沒有意義其實我當檢察官的時候我心裡一直在存疑到底這個只是一個政治上面的操作還是說真正能夠讓人民開始信任司法\n\n32\n00:11:17,313 --> 00:11:36,411\n國民法官的制度好或不好我現在就先不論但是我想跟各位討論的就是說為了因應這個國民法官的制度檢方都是派出第一流的人才我不知道各位知不知道這件事情所以通常都是很好的主任檢察官甚至在公訴非常強的我們會派去做那個國民法官的這個法庭\n\n33\n00:11:37,532 --> 00:11:58,527\n尤其是他們在審理通常都是重大案件那檢方是這麼強大的戰力的情況下那律師呢因為我們現在那個法服他最高酬金只有七萬五千塊那以我我爸爸也是律師啊以我對於律師收酬金的了解這個錢根本請不到\n\n34\n00:11:59,557 --> 00:11:59,797\n李卓人議員\n\n35\n00:12:20,865 --> 00:12:44,009\n是不是說設置這種什麼國民法官的這種那種法服的這種專職團隊還是公設辯護人那因為你先搞這個制度出來這個制度到底好不好對國家好不好你也搞不清楚因為當初並沒有做審慎的評估就貿然的推啦對於我看很多國家他們的法庭制度的更改都是非常長時間的研究之後才敢去推\n\n36\n00:12:44,429 --> 00:13:07,420\n但是我們這邊是隨便開個那個什麼什麼施改會議幾個月然後就搞定什麼全台灣的司法各位都是法律專家我不敢說我是法律專家各位一定是你們一定很清楚這樣的改法到底在改到底是真的在改還是假的在改我想大家心裡都有一把尺但是不管怎麼樣這個制度已經出來了那我們現在要怎麼辦去因應這個問題\n\n37\n00:13:09,241 --> 00:13:09,521\n李卓人議員\n\n38\n00:13:36,859 --> 00:13:51,831\n委員好剛剛您針對這個國民法服關於國法案件的一個辯護的部分你有提出一些關注的意見那這部分其實我們目前已經在做的簡單先跟您報告那針對這個專職律師的部分我們認為說可能需要檢討專職律師目前\n\n39\n00:13:56,835 --> 00:14:01,078\n他其實他是主要是要以懲辦訴訟案件為主那我們會檢討目前基金會對於專職律師的運用上是不是有可以更集中讓他們來專注於訴訟案件那也可以我們現在目前已經歸根法輔基金會有討論那法輔基金會這邊他們有同意說在113年會成立一個刑事辯護中心的一個任務編組\n\n40\n00:14:20,672 --> 00:14:20,692\n吳宗憲議員\n\n41\n00:14:40,186 --> 00:14:40,387\n麻煩拜託\n\n42\n00:14:59,730 --> 00:14:59,970\n吳宗憲委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3275\t9888\t主席還有司法院的各位先進還有我們本院的各位同仁大家好\n11541\t37760\t我先提一個很簡單的東西就是因為我自己在當檢察官的時候我對一個東西我一直長期都有一點想法但是因為基於這個審判獨立我們要給予完全的尊重所以我想說我在這邊我想要提一下就是說剛剛有其他委員也有提過其實我國的量刑真的是太輕了那是不是\n38661\t62021\t我記得10年前吧那時候還有在提一些量刑因子的設計但是後來沒有好像沒有沒有很仔細的那個那個施行嗎好像沒有成功那我想要提的就是因為最近有很多這種詐騙案件那剛剛別的委員也有提到就是詐騙案件過輕的\n63562\t64502\t李卓人議員\n81127\t81848\t司法院秘書長列席\n95021\t120011\t因為我常常看到報紙什麼都有寫這一塊但是他並不會一個平衡的去說這個那這個會不會也導致的民眾對於司法的信任度降低尤其現在詐欺案件是民怨第一名嗎那如果我們對於民怨第一名的案件都讓人們有那麼多在量刑上面的質疑的話我想可能對司法的信任度也是會有一點影響那這部分可能就麻煩\n120691\t120911\t吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員\n148829\t175596\t那這一塊可能也是要麻煩你們能夠注意一下那再來還有一個是我自己當檢察官的時候最痛苦的一個點就是承認跟否認的行度真的太近了那我們看一些其他國家的例子其實他們把承認跟否認他的行度拉得非常大他不要讓一般人他有這個有這個僥倖說我可以去否認然後反正否認到最後\n176476\t176776\t李卓人議員\n197372\t225428\t那法官也是一樣他在檢察官那邊認了他到一審那邊又開始開始翻那一樣法官也辛苦公訴檢察官也辛苦那法官的判決書再寫起來又更長了所以如果我們一直總是實務上面把承認跟否認的刑度都那麼近我個人覺得是在找我們自己的麻煩那承認跟否認你把刑度拉大我覺得這個在法理上面也沒有任何的問題所以是不是\n226926\t251978\t我是說我畢竟我是檢方出身的我絕對尊重那個司法的獨立審判我不會說命令要求怎麼樣法官一定要怎麼做我們完全尊重但是我們真的呼籲能夠把承認跟否認的刑度要把它拉開來不要讓一些犯罪的人有機可乘嘛能夠僥倖你今天如果你犯罪了你敢跟我否認那\n253098\t253258\t律師事務所\n275119\t276680\t立法院秘書長列席\n294650\t319309\t所以說我看了一下一個數據就是從113年其實我們的預算又比前一年度又增加很多所以我們113年的這個預算已經到快15億了那也就是說當然啦我們知道法服它的成立是它的重點其實是對於一些無資歷者我們希望他在法庭訴訟上面能夠得到足夠的保障\n319989\t341937\t但是呢 我們花那麼多錢 那我們到底有沒有做到這樣的效果那我這邊目前找得到的數據大概是111年還有到112年的某些月份那是不是能夠麻煩司法院呢 能夠就法服的這個成效還有一些相關的數據能夠提供給我們辦公室\n342837\t346300\t提供法服服務的案件目前如果依照我手上的數據來看\n365157\t365177\t吳宗憲議員\n377330\t377350\t吳宗憲議員\n395214\t395734\t委員會主席\n412307\t432938\t主要資金來源是司法院的捐助那基金會如果說主要司法院的捐助那這些錢是全民的錢那全民的錢我想說在使用上面我們還是必須要謹慎一下所以麻煩一下你們能夠去分析這個重罪的強制辯護這個案件是不是裡面\n434096\t436197\t在一個月內提供一些資料有沒有必要修法或做怎麼樣的篩選\n463889\t488221\t在一個月內能夠給我們一個資料說明這個報告可不可以可以嗎跟針對剛剛委員關注的這個部分關強制辯護的部分我這邊有個簡單的一些數據簡單先跟委員做一個口頭的說明大概我們從我們這個看這個法服基金會111年度的年度報告書裡面\n489321\t496425\t大概準與輔助的一般案件總共是56,718件那其中強制辯護案件是17,166件大概是佔30.27%那其中受輔助人是中低收入戶的總共是11,172件大概佔19.70%那受輔助人他是屬於身心障礙的話\n513653\t513673\t吳宗憲\n534191\t545021\t其他的強制辯護的部分我們其實有考慮到國家的資源有限所以我們已經司法院已經有含請各法院在辦理形式強制辯護案件的時候希望能夠初步的先審查一下當事人的資歷狀況如果認為需要轉介法服的話再轉介給法服不然的話就盡量指定公辯或者是異辯來做辦理\n558172\t581756\t這是目前辦理的狀況 先跟委員報告那這部分就還是麻煩一下你們能夠提供我們資料那再來就是說其實不是只有這個重罪啦像什麼107年1月1號我們不是有實施這個家庭強制辯護嗎其實這個又讓這個法服的案件量又再擴增所以說這從法服90幾年開始到現在應該是90幾年嘛\n588201\t605058\t對 就是說其實我們一直在擴充那個需求的那個對象那這樣子 司法院這樣受得了嗎而且這些錢都是國家的其實我覺得各個環節大家都在缺錢那如果我們在這個法服這一塊我們支出這麼多費用\n606459\t606479\t吳宗憲議員\n621676\t638545\t從來有很多案子啊接受法服之後他後來又突然又說他不需要了所以說在我手上的數據從105年到111年啊放棄律師陪偵的比例快七成那如果原住民的話甚至到九成\n639125\t639506\t最後一點時間 國民法官的制度\n660009\t675491\t上任之後積極推動的但是這個東西到底有沒有意義對國家有沒有意義其實我當檢察官的時候我心裡一直在存疑到底這個只是一個政治上面的操作還是說真正能夠讓人民開始信任司法\n677313\t696411\t國民法官的制度好或不好我現在就先不論但是我想跟各位討論的就是說為了因應這個國民法官的制度檢方都是派出第一流的人才我不知道各位知不知道這件事情所以通常都是很好的主任檢察官甚至在公訴非常強的我們會派去做那個國民法官的這個法庭\n697532\t718527\t尤其是他們在審理通常都是重大案件那檢方是這麼強大的戰力的情況下那律師呢因為我們現在那個法服他最高酬金只有七萬五千塊那以我我爸爸也是律師啊以我對於律師收酬金的了解這個錢根本請不到\n719557\t719797\t李卓人議員\n740865\t764009\t是不是說設置這種什麼國民法官的這種那種法服的這種專職團隊還是公設辯護人那因為你先搞這個制度出來這個制度到底好不好對國家好不好你也搞不清楚因為當初並沒有做審慎的評估就貿然的推啦對於我看很多國家他們的法庭制度的更改都是非常長時間的研究之後才敢去推\n764429\t787420\t但是我們這邊是隨便開個那個什麼什麼施改會議幾個月然後就搞定什麼全台灣的司法各位都是法律專家我不敢說我是法律專家各位一定是你們一定很清楚這樣的改法到底在改到底是真的在改還是假的在改我想大家心裡都有一把尺但是不管怎麼樣這個制度已經出來了那我們現在要怎麼辦去因應這個問題\n789241\t789521\t李卓人議員\n816859\t831831\t委員好 剛剛您針對這個國民法服關於國法案件的一個辯護的部分你有提出一些關注的意見那這部分其實我們目前已經在做的簡單先跟您報告那針對這個專職律師的部分我們認為說可能需要檢討專職律師目前\n836835\t841078\t他其實他是主要是要以懲辦訴訟案件為主那我們會檢討目前基金會對於專職律師的運用上是不是有可以更集中讓他們來專注於訴訟案件那也可以我們現在目前已經歸根法輔基金會有討論那法輔基金會這邊他們有同意說在113年會成立一個刑事辯護中心的一個任務編組\n860672\t860692\t吳宗憲議員\n880186\t880387\t麻煩拜託\n899730\t899970\t吳宗憲委員\n","txt":"主席還有司法院的各位先進還有我們本院的各位同仁大家好\n我先提一個很簡單的東西就是因為我自己在當檢察官的時候我對一個東西我一直長期都有一點想法但是因為基於這個審判獨立我們要給予完全的尊重所以我想說我在這邊我想要提一下就是說剛剛有其他委員也有提過其實我國的量刑真的是太輕了那是不是\n我記得10年前吧那時候還有在提一些量刑因子的設計但是後來沒有好像沒有沒有很仔細的那個那個施行嗎好像沒有成功那我想要提的就是因為最近有很多這種詐騙案件那剛剛別的委員也有提到就是詐騙案件過輕的\n李卓人議員\n司法院秘書長列席\n因為我常常看到報紙什麼都有寫這一塊但是他並不會一個平衡的去說這個那這個會不會也導致的民眾對於司法的信任度降低尤其現在詐欺案件是民怨第一名嗎那如果我們對於民怨第一名的案件都讓人們有那麼多在量刑上面的質疑的話我想可能對司法的信任度也是會有一點影響那這部分可能就麻煩\n吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員\n那這一塊可能也是要麻煩你們能夠注意一下那再來還有一個是我自己當檢察官的時候最痛苦的一個點就是承認跟否認的行度真的太近了那我們看一些其他國家的例子其實他們把承認跟否認他的行度拉得非常大他不要讓一般人他有這個有這個僥倖說我可以去否認然後反正否認到最後\n李卓人議員\n那法官也是一樣他在檢察官那邊認了他到一審那邊又開始開始翻那一樣法官也辛苦公訴檢察官也辛苦那法官的判決書再寫起來又更長了所以如果我們一直總是實務上面把承認跟否認的刑度都那麼近我個人覺得是在找我們自己的麻煩那承認跟否認你把刑度拉大我覺得這個在法理上面也沒有任何的問題所以是不是\n我是說我畢竟我是檢方出身的我絕對尊重那個司法的獨立審判我不會說命令要求怎麼樣法官一定要怎麼做我們完全尊重但是我們真的呼籲能夠把承認跟否認的刑度要把它拉開來不要讓一些犯罪的人有機可乘嘛能夠僥倖你今天如果你犯罪了你敢跟我否認那\n律師事務所\n立法院秘書長列席\n所以說我看了一下一個數據就是從113年其實我們的預算又比前一年度又增加很多所以我們113年的這個預算已經到快15億了那也就是說當然啦我們知道法服它的成立是它的重點其實是對於一些無資歷者我們希望他在法庭訴訟上面能夠得到足夠的保障\n但是呢 我們花那麼多錢 那我們到底有沒有做到這樣的效果那我這邊目前找得到的數據大概是111年還有到112年的某些月份那是不是能夠麻煩司法院呢 能夠就法服的這個成效還有一些相關的數據能夠提供給我們辦公室\n提供法服服務的案件目前如果依照我手上的數據來看\n吳宗憲議員\n吳宗憲議員\n委員會主席\n主要資金來源是司法院的捐助那基金會如果說主要司法院的捐助那這些錢是全民的錢那全民的錢我想說在使用上面我們還是必須要謹慎一下所以麻煩一下你們能夠去分析這個重罪的強制辯護這個案件是不是裡面\n在一個月內提供一些資料有沒有必要修法或做怎麼樣的篩選\n在一個月內能夠給我們一個資料說明這個報告可不可以可以嗎跟針對剛剛委員關注的這個部分關強制辯護的部分我這邊有個簡單的一些數據簡單先跟委員做一個口頭的說明大概我們從我們這個看這個法服基金會111年度的年度報告書裡面\n大概準與輔助的一般案件總共是56,718件那其中強制辯護案件是17,166件大概是佔30.27%那其中受輔助人是中低收入戶的總共是11,172件大概佔19.70%那受輔助人他是屬於身心障礙的話\n吳宗憲\n其他的強制辯護的部分我們其實有考慮到國家的資源有限所以我們已經司法院已經有含請各法院在辦理形式強制辯護案件的時候希望能夠初步的先審查一下當事人的資歷狀況如果認為需要轉介法服的話再轉介給法服不然的話就盡量指定公辯或者是異辯來做辦理\n這是目前辦理的狀況 先跟委員報告那這部分就還是麻煩一下你們能夠提供我們資料那再來就是說其實不是只有這個重罪啦像什麼107年1月1號我們不是有實施這個家庭強制辯護嗎其實這個又讓這個法服的案件量又再擴增所以說這從法服90幾年開始到現在應該是90幾年嘛\n對 就是說其實我們一直在擴充那個需求的那個對象那這樣子 司法院這樣受得了嗎而且這些錢都是國家的其實我覺得各個環節大家都在缺錢那如果我們在這個法服這一塊我們支出這麼多費用\n吳宗憲議員\n從來有很多案子啊接受法服之後他後來又突然又說他不需要了所以說在我手上的數據從105年到111年啊放棄律師陪偵的比例快七成那如果原住民的話甚至到九成\n最後一點時間 國民法官的制度\n上任之後積極推動的但是這個東西到底有沒有意義對國家有沒有意義其實我當檢察官的時候我心裡一直在存疑到底這個只是一個政治上面的操作還是說真正能夠讓人民開始信任司法\n國民法官的制度好或不好我現在就先不論但是我想跟各位討論的就是說為了因應這個國民法官的制度檢方都是派出第一流的人才我不知道各位知不知道這件事情所以通常都是很好的主任檢察官甚至在公訴非常強的我們會派去做那個國民法官的這個法庭\n尤其是他們在審理通常都是重大案件那檢方是這麼強大的戰力的情況下那律師呢因為我們現在那個法服他最高酬金只有七萬五千塊那以我我爸爸也是律師啊以我對於律師收酬金的了解這個錢根本請不到\n李卓人議員\n是不是說設置這種什麼國民法官的這種那種法服的這種專職團隊還是公設辯護人那因為你先搞這個制度出來這個制度到底好不好對國家好不好你也搞不清楚因為當初並沒有做審慎的評估就貿然的推啦對於我看很多國家他們的法庭制度的更改都是非常長時間的研究之後才敢去推\n但是我們這邊是隨便開個那個什麼什麼施改會議幾個月然後就搞定什麼全台灣的司法各位都是法律專家我不敢說我是法律專家各位一定是你們一定很清楚這樣的改法到底在改到底是真的在改還是假的在改我想大家心裡都有一把尺但是不管怎麼樣這個制度已經出來了那我們現在要怎麼辦去因應這個問題\n李卓人議員\n委員好 剛剛您針對這個國民法服關於國法案件的一個辯護的部分你有提出一些關注的意見那這部分其實我們目前已經在做的簡單先跟您報告那針對這個專職律師的部分我們認為說可能需要檢討專職律師目前\n他其實他是主要是要以懲辦訴訟案件為主那我們會檢討目前基金會對於專職律師的運用上是不是有可以更集中讓他們來專注於訴訟案件那也可以我們現在目前已經歸根法輔基金會有討論那法輔基金會這邊他們有同意說在113年會成立一個刑事辯護中心的一個任務編組\n吳宗憲議員\n麻煩拜託\n吳宗憲委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.275 --> 00:09.888\n主席還有司法院的各位先進還有我們本院的各位同仁大家好\n\n00:11.541 --> 00:37.760\n我先提一個很簡單的東西就是因為我自己在當檢察官的時候我對一個東西我一直長期都有一點想法但是因為基於這個審判獨立我們要給予完全的尊重所以我想說我在這邊我想要提一下就是說剛剛有其他委員也有提過其實我國的量刑真的是太輕了那是不是\n\n00:38.661 --> 01:02.021\n我記得10年前吧那時候還有在提一些量刑因子的設計但是後來沒有好像沒有沒有很仔細的那個那個施行嗎好像沒有成功那我想要提的就是因為最近有很多這種詐騙案件那剛剛別的委員也有提到就是詐騙案件過輕的\n\n01:03.562 --> 01:04.502\n李卓人議員\n\n01:21.127 --> 01:21.848\n司法院秘書長列席\n\n01:35.021 --> 02:00.011\n因為我常常看到報紙什麼都有寫這一塊但是他並不會一個平衡的去說這個那這個會不會也導致的民眾對於司法的信任度降低尤其現在詐欺案件是民怨第一名嗎那如果我們對於民怨第一名的案件都讓人們有那麼多在量刑上面的質疑的話我想可能對司法的信任度也是會有一點影響那這部分可能就麻煩\n\n02:00.691 --> 02:00.911\n吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員\n\n02:28.829 --> 02:55.596\n那這一塊可能也是要麻煩你們能夠注意一下那再來還有一個是我自己當檢察官的時候最痛苦的一個點就是承認跟否認的行度真的太近了那我們看一些其他國家的例子其實他們把承認跟否認他的行度拉得非常大他不要讓一般人他有這個有這個僥倖說我可以去否認然後反正否認到最後\n\n02:56.476 --> 02:56.776\n李卓人議員\n\n03:17.372 --> 03:45.428\n那法官也是一樣他在檢察官那邊認了他到一審那邊又開始開始翻那一樣法官也辛苦公訴檢察官也辛苦那法官的判決書再寫起來又更長了所以如果我們一直總是實務上面把承認跟否認的刑度都那麼近我個人覺得是在找我們自己的麻煩那承認跟否認你把刑度拉大我覺得這個在法理上面也沒有任何的問題所以是不是\n\n03:46.926 --> 04:11.978\n我是說我畢竟我是檢方出身的我絕對尊重那個司法的獨立審判我不會說命令要求怎麼樣法官一定要怎麼做我們完全尊重但是我們真的呼籲能夠把承認跟否認的刑度要把它拉開來不要讓一些犯罪的人有機可乘嘛能夠僥倖你今天如果你犯罪了你敢跟我否認那\n\n04:13.098 --> 04:13.258\n律師事務所\n\n04:35.119 --> 04:36.680\n立法院秘書長列席\n\n04:54.650 --> 05:19.309\n所以說我看了一下一個數據就是從113年其實我們的預算又比前一年度又增加很多所以我們113年的這個預算已經到快15億了那也就是說當然啦我們知道法服它的成立是它的重點其實是對於一些無資歷者我們希望他在法庭訴訟上面能夠得到足夠的保障\n\n05:19.989 --> 05:41.937\n但是呢我們花那麼多錢那我們到底有沒有做到這樣的效果那我這邊目前找得到的數據大概是111年還有到112年的某些月份那是不是能夠麻煩司法院呢能夠就法服的這個成效還有一些相關的數據能夠提供給我們辦公室\n\n05:42.837 --> 05:46.300\n提供法服服務的案件目前如果依照我手上的數據來看\n\n06:05.157 --> 06:05.177\n吳宗憲議員\n\n06:17.330 --> 06:17.350\n吳宗憲議員\n\n06:35.214 --> 06:35.734\n委員會主席\n\n06:52.307 --> 07:12.938\n主要資金來源是司法院的捐助那基金會如果說主要司法院的捐助那這些錢是全民的錢那全民的錢我想說在使用上面我們還是必須要謹慎一下所以麻煩一下你們能夠去分析這個重罪的強制辯護這個案件是不是裡面\n\n07:14.096 --> 07:16.197\n在一個月內提供一些資料有沒有必要修法或做怎麼樣的篩選\n\n07:43.889 --> 08:08.221\n在一個月內能夠給我們一個資料說明這個報告可不可以可以嗎跟針對剛剛委員關注的這個部分關強制辯護的部分我這邊有個簡單的一些數據簡單先跟委員做一個口頭的說明大概我們從我們這個看這個法服基金會111年度的年度報告書裡面\n\n08:09.321 --> 08:16.425\n大概準與輔助的一般案件總共是56,718件那其中強制辯護案件是17,166件大概是佔30.27%那其中受輔助人是中低收入戶的總共是11,172件大概佔19.70%那受輔助人他是屬於身心障礙的話\n\n08:33.653 --> 08:33.673\n吳宗憲\n\n08:54.191 --> 09:05.021\n其他的強制辯護的部分我們其實有考慮到國家的資源有限所以我們已經司法院已經有含請各法院在辦理形式強制辯護案件的時候希望能夠初步的先審查一下當事人的資歷狀況如果認為需要轉介法服的話再轉介給法服不然的話就盡量指定公辯或者是異辯來做辦理\n\n09:18.172 --> 09:41.756\n這是目前辦理的狀況先跟委員報告那這部分就還是麻煩一下你們能夠提供我們資料那再來就是說其實不是只有這個重罪啦像什麼107年1月1號我們不是有實施這個家庭強制辯護嗎其實這個又讓這個法服的案件量又再擴增所以說這從法服90幾年開始到現在應該是90幾年嘛\n\n09:48.201 --> 10:05.058\n對就是說其實我們一直在擴充那個需求的那個對象那這樣子司法院這樣受得了嗎而且這些錢都是國家的其實我覺得各個環節大家都在缺錢那如果我們在這個法服這一塊我們支出這麼多費用\n\n10:06.459 --> 10:06.479\n吳宗憲議員\n\n10:21.676 --> 10:38.545\n從來有很多案子啊接受法服之後他後來又突然又說他不需要了所以說在我手上的數據從105年到111年啊放棄律師陪偵的比例快七成那如果原住民的話甚至到九成\n\n10:39.125 --> 10:39.506\n最後一點時間國民法官的制度\n\n11:00.009 --> 11:15.491\n上任之後積極推動的但是這個東西到底有沒有意義對國家有沒有意義其實我當檢察官的時候我心裡一直在存疑到底這個只是一個政治上面的操作還是說真正能夠讓人民開始信任司法\n\n11:17.313 --> 11:36.411\n國民法官的制度好或不好我現在就先不論但是我想跟各位討論的就是說為了因應這個國民法官的制度檢方都是派出第一流的人才我不知道各位知不知道這件事情所以通常都是很好的主任檢察官甚至在公訴非常強的我們會派去做那個國民法官的這個法庭\n\n11:37.532 --> 11:58.527\n尤其是他們在審理通常都是重大案件那檢方是這麼強大的戰力的情況下那律師呢因為我們現在那個法服他最高酬金只有七萬五千塊那以我我爸爸也是律師啊以我對於律師收酬金的了解這個錢根本請不到\n\n11:59.557 --> 11:59.797\n李卓人議員\n\n12:20.865 --> 12:44.009\n是不是說設置這種什麼國民法官的這種那種法服的這種專職團隊還是公設辯護人那因為你先搞這個制度出來這個制度到底好不好對國家好不好你也搞不清楚因為當初並沒有做審慎的評估就貿然的推啦對於我看很多國家他們的法庭制度的更改都是非常長時間的研究之後才敢去推\n\n12:44.429 --> 13:07.420\n但是我們這邊是隨便開個那個什麼什麼施改會議幾個月然後就搞定什麼全台灣的司法各位都是法律專家我不敢說我是法律專家各位一定是你們一定很清楚這樣的改法到底在改到底是真的在改還是假的在改我想大家心裡都有一把尺但是不管怎麼樣這個制度已經出來了那我們現在要怎麼辦去因應這個問題\n\n13:09.241 --> 13:09.521\n李卓人議員\n\n13:36.859 --> 13:51.831\n委員好剛剛您針對這個國民法服關於國法案件的一個辯護的部分你有提出一些關注的意見那這部分其實我們目前已經在做的簡單先跟您報告那針對這個專職律師的部分我們認為說可能需要檢討專職律師目前\n\n13:56.835 --> 14:01.078\n他其實他是主要是要以懲辦訴訟案件為主那我們會檢討目前基金會對於專職律師的運用上是不是有可以更集中讓他們來專注於訴訟案件那也可以我們現在目前已經歸根法輔基金會有討論那法輔基金會這邊他們有同意說在113年會成立一個刑事辯護中心的一個任務編組\n\n14:20.672 --> 14:20.692\n吳宗憲議員\n\n14:40.186 --> 14:40.387\n麻煩拜託\n\n14:59.730 --> 14:59.970\n吳宗憲委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.275,"end":9.888,"text":"主席還有司法院的各位先進還有我們本院的各位同仁大家好"},{"start":11.541,"end":37.76,"text":"我先提一個很簡單的東西就是因為我自己在當檢察官的時候我對一個東西我一直長期都有一點想法但是因為基於這個審判獨立我們要給予完全的尊重所以我想說我在這邊我想要提一下就是說剛剛有其他委員也有提過其實我國的量刑真的是太輕了那是不是"},{"start":38.661,"end":62.021,"text":"我記得10年前吧那時候還有在提一些量刑因子的設計但是後來沒有好像沒有沒有很仔細的那個那個施行嗎好像沒有成功那我想要提的就是因為最近有很多這種詐騙案件那剛剛別的委員也有提到就是詐騙案件過輕的"},{"start":63.562,"end":64.502,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":81.127,"end":81.848,"text":"司法院秘書長列席"},{"start":95.021,"end":120.011,"text":"因為我常常看到報紙什麼都有寫這一塊但是他並不會一個平衡的去說這個那這個會不會也導致的民眾對於司法的信任度降低尤其現在詐欺案件是民怨第一名嗎那如果我們對於民怨第一名的案件都讓人們有那麼多在量刑上面的質疑的話我想可能對司法的信任度也是會有一點影響那這部分可能就麻煩"},{"start":120.691,"end":120.911,"text":"吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員"},{"start":148.829,"end":175.596,"text":"那這一塊可能也是要麻煩你們能夠注意一下那再來還有一個是我自己當檢察官的時候最痛苦的一個點就是承認跟否認的行度真的太近了那我們看一些其他國家的例子其實他們把承認跟否認他的行度拉得非常大他不要讓一般人他有這個有這個僥倖說我可以去否認然後反正否認到最後"},{"start":176.476,"end":176.776,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":197.372,"end":225.428,"text":"那法官也是一樣他在檢察官那邊認了他到一審那邊又開始開始翻那一樣法官也辛苦公訴檢察官也辛苦那法官的判決書再寫起來又更長了所以如果我們一直總是實務上面把承認跟否認的刑度都那麼近我個人覺得是在找我們自己的麻煩那承認跟否認你把刑度拉大我覺得這個在法理上面也沒有任何的問題所以是不是"},{"start":226.926,"end":251.978,"text":"我是說我畢竟我是檢方出身的我絕對尊重那個司法的獨立審判我不會說命令要求怎麼樣法官一定要怎麼做我們完全尊重但是我們真的呼籲能夠把承認跟否認的刑度要把它拉開來不要讓一些犯罪的人有機可乘嘛能夠僥倖你今天如果你犯罪了你敢跟我否認那"},{"start":253.098,"end":253.258,"text":"律師事務所"},{"start":275.119,"end":276.68,"text":"立法院秘書長列席"},{"start":294.65,"end":319.309,"text":"所以說我看了一下一個數據就是從113年其實我們的預算又比前一年度又增加很多所以我們113年的這個預算已經到快15億了那也就是說當然啦我們知道法服它的成立是它的重點其實是對於一些無資歷者我們希望他在法庭訴訟上面能夠得到足夠的保障"},{"start":319.989,"end":341.937,"text":"但是呢 我們花那麼多錢 那我們到底有沒有做到這樣的效果那我這邊目前找得到的數據大概是111年還有到112年的某些月份那是不是能夠麻煩司法院呢 能夠就法服的這個成效還有一些相關的數據能夠提供給我們辦公室"},{"start":342.837,"end":346.3,"text":"提供法服服務的案件目前如果依照我手上的數據來看"},{"start":365.157,"end":365.177,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":377.33,"end":377.35,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":395.214,"end":395.734,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":412.307,"end":432.938,"text":"主要資金來源是司法院的捐助那基金會如果說主要司法院的捐助那這些錢是全民的錢那全民的錢我想說在使用上面我們還是必須要謹慎一下所以麻煩一下你們能夠去分析這個重罪的強制辯護這個案件是不是裡面"},{"start":434.096,"end":436.197,"text":"在一個月內提供一些資料有沒有必要修法或做怎麼樣的篩選"},{"start":463.889,"end":488.221,"text":"在一個月內能夠給我們一個資料說明這個報告可不可以可以嗎跟針對剛剛委員關注的這個部分關強制辯護的部分我這邊有個簡單的一些數據簡單先跟委員做一個口頭的說明大概我們從我們這個看這個法服基金會111年度的年度報告書裡面"},{"start":489.321,"end":496.425,"text":"大概準與輔助的一般案件總共是56,718件那其中強制辯護案件是17,166件大概是佔30.27%那其中受輔助人是中低收入戶的總共是11,172件大概佔19.70%那受輔助人他是屬於身心障礙的話"},{"start":513.653,"end":513.673,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":534.191,"end":545.021,"text":"其他的強制辯護的部分我們其實有考慮到國家的資源有限所以我們已經司法院已經有含請各法院在辦理形式強制辯護案件的時候希望能夠初步的先審查一下當事人的資歷狀況如果認為需要轉介法服的話再轉介給法服不然的話就盡量指定公辯或者是異辯來做辦理"},{"start":558.172,"end":581.756,"text":"這是目前辦理的狀況 先跟委員報告那這部分就還是麻煩一下你們能夠提供我們資料那再來就是說其實不是只有這個重罪啦像什麼107年1月1號我們不是有實施這個家庭強制辯護嗎其實這個又讓這個法服的案件量又再擴增所以說這從法服90幾年開始到現在應該是90幾年嘛"},{"start":588.201,"end":605.058,"text":"對 就是說其實我們一直在擴充那個需求的那個對象那這樣子 司法院這樣受得了嗎而且這些錢都是國家的其實我覺得各個環節大家都在缺錢那如果我們在這個法服這一塊我們支出這麼多費用"},{"start":606.459,"end":606.479,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":621.676,"end":638.545,"text":"從來有很多案子啊接受法服之後他後來又突然又說他不需要了所以說在我手上的數據從105年到111年啊放棄律師陪偵的比例快七成那如果原住民的話甚至到九成"},{"start":639.125,"end":639.506,"text":"最後一點時間 國民法官的制度"},{"start":660.009,"end":675.491,"text":"上任之後積極推動的但是這個東西到底有沒有意義對國家有沒有意義其實我當檢察官的時候我心裡一直在存疑到底這個只是一個政治上面的操作還是說真正能夠讓人民開始信任司法"},{"start":677.313,"end":696.411,"text":"國民法官的制度好或不好我現在就先不論但是我想跟各位討論的就是說為了因應這個國民法官的制度檢方都是派出第一流的人才我不知道各位知不知道這件事情所以通常都是很好的主任檢察官甚至在公訴非常強的我們會派去做那個國民法官的這個法庭"},{"start":697.532,"end":718.527,"text":"尤其是他們在審理通常都是重大案件那檢方是這麼強大的戰力的情況下那律師呢因為我們現在那個法服他最高酬金只有七萬五千塊那以我我爸爸也是律師啊以我對於律師收酬金的了解這個錢根本請不到"},{"start":719.557,"end":719.797,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":740.865,"end":764.009,"text":"是不是說設置這種什麼國民法官的這種那種法服的這種專職團隊還是公設辯護人那因為你先搞這個制度出來這個制度到底好不好對國家好不好你也搞不清楚因為當初並沒有做審慎的評估就貿然的推啦對於我看很多國家他們的法庭制度的更改都是非常長時間的研究之後才敢去推"},{"start":764.429,"end":787.42,"text":"但是我們這邊是隨便開個那個什麼什麼施改會議幾個月然後就搞定什麼全台灣的司法各位都是法律專家我不敢說我是法律專家各位一定是你們一定很清楚這樣的改法到底在改到底是真的在改還是假的在改我想大家心裡都有一把尺但是不管怎麼樣這個制度已經出來了那我們現在要怎麼辦去因應這個問題"},{"start":789.241,"end":789.521,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":816.859,"end":831.831,"text":"委員好 剛剛您針對這個國民法服關於國法案件的一個辯護的部分你有提出一些關注的意見那這部分其實我們目前已經在做的簡單先跟您報告那針對這個專職律師的部分我們認為說可能需要檢討專職律師目前"},{"start":836.835,"end":841.078,"text":"他其實他是主要是要以懲辦訴訟案件為主那我們會檢討目前基金會對於專職律師的運用上是不是有可以更集中讓他們來專注於訴訟案件那也可以我們現在目前已經歸根法輔基金會有討論那法輔基金會這邊他們有同意說在113年會成立一個刑事辯護中心的一個任務編組"},{"start":860.672,"end":860.692,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":880.186,"end":880.387,"text":"麻煩拜託"},{"start":899.73,"end":899.97,"text":"吳宗憲委員"}]}}}}