{"id":149333,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149333","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f7f15a518bd5a4f0b90274675d1217385f8ba9b0039caa7a611952e407ee502b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"09:37:14 - 09:46:13","影片長度":"00:08:59","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員馮世寬報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-2"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":539,"end_time":"2024-03-06T09:46:13+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T09:37:14+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":174,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（9時37分）有請馮主委，謝謝。"],["主席：請馮主委。"],["馮主任委員世寬：委員早安。"],["沈委員伯洋：早安。謝謝主委的業務報告，退輔會的作為以及一些福利的提供，說真的是滿完善的，我過世的阿公也是八二三炮戰的榮民，一直也是受到退輔會的照顧。我今天想要問的是一個非常單純的問題，就是我們退將赴中國的問題。我知道其實退將的管制主要還是在國防部，所以我今天不會去碰觸到一些管制的問題，比較是接觸到今天退役軍官在退輔會，我們要怎麼去對待的事情。","第一個，我想要先從這邊看起，新聞一直都有報導，我們有各式軍種的退將赴中，趨於頻繁，也越來越多。從我們的整理就可以看到，退役中將張延廷就說，目前他們共諜，就是對於軍人的滲透有四個手法，第一個手法當然就是尋找退役軍官「搭橋梁」，再來是「放長線釣大魚」，然後「夫人幫」利用女性，以及一些文化交流等等的活動。我比較好奇的就是，在Peter Mattis的研究中有講過，2006到2016那十年是中國滲透我們軍方的黃金十年，那個大概有40個案件，像從2016到現在也快要10年，我們現在看到接下來的案件好像也還是滿多，所以我們想要知道的事情是，這幾個到底哪一個手法是比較主要的？","我們就看到一些整理，從2015年一直到現在，左邊這些案件就是目前有違反國安法的相關案件，右邊倒數第三行，就是中間的「協力者」，他去接觸我們現役的軍人，到底都是透過誰來接觸？所以我們從2015年一直整理到2023年就會發現，他所有的協力者都是退役軍官，也就是說，剛剛講的那四個手法都是第一個手法最多。所以我第一個想問的就是，退輔會知不知道或有沒有整理過這些退役軍官最主要是從事什麼業務，以及他們的年齡分布到底是什麼樣子？"],["馮主任委員世寬：回報委員，去年我們退輔會，尤其是我主委破例的，因為中國大陸要籌辦黃埔軍校成立100週年的紀念，我特別為這件事情勸導我們的退除役官兵，黃埔軍校從大陸撤退到臺灣來以後，整個都遷移到臺灣來了，我們所有的軍事訓練都以黃埔精神作為我們訓練的精神教育，我們應該要認清你去參加這個活動，不是去支援，不是去資助，而是去看他們怎麼辦。但是我勸導他們不要去，應該在今年我們黃埔軍校成立100週年的活動中間，全力的支援我們辦一個成功的百年大慶，這個第一個是我自己帶領退輔會所有同仁出面開記者會來勸導。第二個，我們深度地來研討他們對於我們的滲透，以及希望能夠煽動、挑撥、製造混亂等等，我給委員報告，距離這個還差得很遠，以我去過20、30次中國大陸的經驗，他們從來沒有人找過我，怎麼會不找我呢？我當過情報次長，我是空軍的上將，最有宣傳性、最有利用性，他們都沒有來找我，為什麼？這一些在我個人當過國防部長以後才瞭解，這些是底下的一種驅動，無法撼動我們整個退伍軍人愛國的精神。"],["沈委員伯洋：主委，謝謝。我知道不管是我們對於他們的精神喊話或者對他們的勸導，我覺得這當然是非常重要。但因為我們在看這些案例的時候，他們經營的旅遊業是滿多的，然後接下來這些退役的軍官，為什麼我們想知道他的年齡分布？因為像我們都知道在退伍之前他們有些職訓，還有像剛剛你有提到，有提供一些就業的幫助等等之類的，所以我們是在想說，如果我們對於這一些退役軍官的年紀分布是比較瞭解的話，就可以比較知道要怎麼把他拉住，這是第一點。第二點，退役軍人這個我先跳過，就是他們除了這個以外，還會做很多書畫等等之類的交流，你可以看到他可以把我們的退役軍官的圖像就全部放在上面，也包含了這些所謂全球粥會、書畫學院、文化協會的一些交流，這些交流非常非常的多，到底哪一些才會變成風險？因為風險要控管嘛！以現在國家安全來講，我們大概是一個案例都不能夠允許，所以對於這個風險控管要怎麼做？除了福利的給予以及職訓這些相關之外，我們是不是還有其他的手段？在這邊我們唯一能夠想到跟退輔會比較相關的，當然還是福利。","在這邊我們也可以看到，主委之前有講過，退役官兵如果違反國安法，就會停退輔的給付，然後要追討退休俸。我們現在在想的事情是，因為這些判決曠日廢時，要等到它定案也要非常長的時間，如果我們今天真的要等到那個時候，說真的對他們來講這個效益並不是那麼的高，其實並沒有辦法真的把他拉住。所以我想問說，退輔會有沒有機會去研議看看，就是我們今天是不是在起訴的階段就可以做停止甚至到喪失本條例之權益的作法，我覺得可能只能做到停止，還沒有辦法做到喪失，這是第一點。第二點，我們現在有反滲透法，但退役軍官並不是第一點，因為通常他們最後的目標是現役軍人，退役軍官是他的中間人，這個中間人如果今天被接觸之後，再去接觸現役的軍人，他本身是屬於仲介，仲介最主要的規定反而是在反滲透法，但現在不管是要停止還是喪失，都沒有在反滲透法裡面有規定，所以不知道退輔會有沒有相關的研議能夠提出，就是我們能不能夠把其他的規定放進去？這是第一個。","第二個，除了這些之外，能不能夠把起訴階段的就放在停止，這樣的話，對我們來講才能夠拉住這些人，才會真的有一個棒子。不然的話，像主委之前也有提過，這個是能夠拿回退休俸什麼等等之類的，是不是能夠針對這一些，在一個月之內能夠提出相關的研議方案？"],["馮主任委員世寬：報告委員，我們不可能一個月提出，因為第一個，我們自己要研議；第二個，這是關於法律的問題，還是要從法律的程序來解決。但是我可以跟委員報告，從報章雜誌跟您的統計數據，假如我不是有軍人的背景、沒有對軍人的信心，我會很慌亂，竟然這麼多！我可以跟委員報告，我接觸到的基層是非常多的。目前為止，我把這一些當成宵小，不可能撼動國軍對於國家的熱愛，也不可能煽動老百姓起來做什麼紅統，都不可能！雖然有這個事情，但不要把它看得太嚴重。我們已經有相關單位在中間正在進行各種調查，比您講的還清楚，請您放心。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，主委，謝謝。最後，重點我們都知道這些其實都是少數個案，但對國家安全來講，少數個案還是會造成比較大的危害，所以我們還是必須要做相關的一些處理，謝謝主委。"],["馮主任委員世寬：我們會提高警覺。謝謝。"],["主席：請回。請退輔會針對委員詢答研擬因應方案讓質詢委員瞭解，也報本委員會。","接下來進行詢答的是林楚茵委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-2","speakers":["王定宇","沈伯洋","林楚茵","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","徐巧芯","洪申翰","陳冠廷","馬文君","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":329,"meetingDate":["2024-03-06"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員馮世寬報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130601_00010"}},"transcript":{"id":"149333","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149333","tool":"pyannote","id":"149333-pyannote"},"job_id":"oU25Mmo1caktakjT","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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527.121, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 527.121, \"end\": 527.141, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 527.141, \"end\": 527.201, \"score\": 0.594}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 527.201, \"end\": 527.382, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 527.382, \"end\": 527.402, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,735 --> 00:00:32,565\n那有請這個馮主委謝謝好請馮主委委員早安好早安那謝謝這個主委的這一個業務報告那這一個退輔會的作為然後以及這個一些福利的一些提供說真的是去蠻完善的我的過世的這個阿公也是八二三炮戰的榮民一直也是受到退輔會的照顧\n\n2\n00:00:33,525 --> 00:00:54,435\n我今天想要問的是一個非常單純的問題就是我們退將跟這個赴中國的問題那我知道其實退將的管制主要還是在國防部所以我今天不會去碰觸到一些管制的問題比較是接觸到就是今天退役軍官在退輔會我們怎麼去對待的一些事情那第一個我是想要先從這邊看起就是說\n\n3\n00:00:54,975 --> 00:01:18,162\n新聞一直都有報導就是說我們有各式軍種的一些退將復中所以其實區域平凡也越來越多在我們的整理就可以看到退役中將張燕婷她就說目前他們對於我們這個共諜就是對於軍人的滲透有四個手法第一個手法當然就是這一個尋找退役的軍官搭橋樑\n\n4\n00:01:19,903 --> 00:01:41,822\n放長線釣大魚夫人幫利用女性以及一些文化交流等等的活動我比較好奇的就是因為在PeterMattis的研究他有講過2006到2016那10年是中國滲透我們軍方的黃金10年大概有40個案件現在從16到現在也快要10年了\n\n5\n00:01:42,242 --> 00:01:42,502\n李卓人議員\n\n6\n00:02:02,102 --> 00:02:30,484\n他去接觸我們現役的軍人到底都是透過誰來接觸結果我們從2015一直整理到這個2023就會發現他所有的協力者都是退役的這些軍官也就是說呢剛剛講的那四個手法都是第一個手法最多啦那所以這邊我是想第一個想問的就是退伏會第一個就是有沒有知道就是整理這些退役的這些軍官他們最主要是從事什麼業務然後以及他們的年齡分佈到底是什麼樣子\n\n7\n00:02:33,018 --> 00:02:40,262\n我特別為這件事情勸導我們的退除役官兵\n\n8\n00:03:02,552 --> 00:03:30,335\n黃埔軍校從大陸撤退到台灣來以後整個的遷移到台灣來了我們所有的軍事訓練都以黃埔精神作為我們訓練的精神教育我們應該要認清你去參加這個活動不是去支援不是去資助而是去看他們怎麼辦但是我勸導他們\n\n9\n00:03:31,872 --> 00:03:32,052\n主席\n\n10\n00:04:00,475 --> 00:04:29,816\n能夠譬如說煽動挑撥製造混亂等等我給委員報告據這個距離還差得很遠以我去過二三十次中國大陸的經驗他們從來沒有人找過我怎麼會不找我呢我當過情報資質長我是空軍的上將最有這個宣傳性最有利用性他們都沒有來找我為什麼\n\n11\n00:04:31,389 --> 00:04:55,943\n這些在我個人當過國防部長以後才了解這些是底下的一種驅動無法撼動我們整個退伍軍人愛國的精神是無法撼動的主委謝謝那這個我是知道就是說不管我們是對於他們的精神喊話或者說他們的勸導我覺得這當然是非常重要但因為我們在看這些案例的時候他們經營的旅遊業是蠻多的\n\n12\n00:04:57,564 --> 00:05:17,826\n接下來就是這些退役的這些軍官為什麼我們想知道他的年齡分布是因為像我們都知道我們在這些退伍之前他們有一些執訓還有像剛剛你有提到有提供一些就業的幫助等等之類的所以我們是在想說如果我們對於這些退役的軍官的年紀分布是比較了解的我們就可以比較知道要怎麼把他拉住這是第一點\n\n13\n00:05:18,767 --> 00:05:37,106\n第二點這個退役軍這個我先跳過就是他們除了這個以外還會做很多這些書畫什麼等等之類的一些交流等等之類你可以看到他可以把我們這個退役軍官的這些圖像就全部放在上面然後也包含了這一些所謂全球州會書畫學院文化協會的一些交流\n\n14\n00:05:37,686 --> 00:06:02,247\n那這些交流非常非常的多那到底哪一些才會變成風險因為風險要控管嘛因為我們現在國家安全來講我們大概是一個案例都不能夠允許所以對於這個風險控管要怎麼做除了福利的給予之外還有執訓這些相關之外我們是不是還有其他的手段那在這邊呢我們唯一能夠想到跟退伏會比較相關的當然還是福利那在這邊呢我們也可以看到就是\n\n15\n00:06:04,318 --> 00:06:21,810\n主委之前有講過就是退役的官兵如果違反這個國安法這個停退服的這個給付然後要追討這個退休分那我們現在在想的事情是因為這些判決他的曠日廢時那要等到他定案也要非常長的時間如果我們今天真的要等到那一個時候\n\n16\n00:06:22,190 --> 00:06:22,330\n沈伯洋\n\n17\n00:06:37,506 --> 00:07:04,814\n上司本條例的一個權益的一個做法我覺得可能只能做到停職還沒有辦法做到喪失這是第一點那第二點就是因為我們現在有反滲透法因為退役軍官呢他並不是第一點因為通常來講他們的目標是最後是現役的軍人那退役的軍官是他的中間人那這個中間人呢如果他今天被接觸之後再去接觸現役的軍人他本身是屬於這個仲介仲介最主要的規定反而是在反滲透法\n\n18\n00:07:05,374 --> 00:07:29,267\n反送中法現在並沒有在這裡面的規定就是說你今天不管是要停職還是這一個喪屍所以不知道這退府會有沒有相關的這個言議能夠提出就是我們能不能夠把其他的規定放進去這是第一個那第二個就是除了這些之外能不能夠把起訴階段的就把它放在停職那這樣的話對我們來講能夠拉住這些人才會真的有一個棒子\n\n19\n00:07:29,787 --> 00:07:30,827\n委員會主任委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席\n\n20\n00:07:58,774 --> 00:08:14,584\n從報章雜誌跟您統計數據出數字假如我不是有軍人的背景沒有對軍人的信心我會很慌亂哦這麼多我可以跟委員報告我接觸到的基層是非常多的\n\n21\n00:08:16,638 --> 00:08:40,687\n沒有人可以到目前為止這一些我把它當成小小不可能撼動國軍對於國家的熱愛也不可能煽動老百姓起來做什麼紅統都不可能所以有這個事情不要把它看得太嚴重我們已經有相關單位在中間比您講的還清楚的正在進行\n\n22\n00:08:42,278 --> 00:08:47,402\n主委謝謝最後給我5秒鐘重點我們都知道這個其實都是少數個案但因為對國家安全來講少數個案還是會造成比較大的危害所以我們還是必須要做相關的一些處理\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3735\t32565\t那有請這個馮主委謝謝好請馮主委委員早安好早安那謝謝這個主委的這一個業務報告那這一個退輔會的作為然後以及這個一些福利的一些提供說真的是去蠻完善的我的過世的這個阿公也是八二三炮戰的榮民一直也是受到退輔會的照顧\n33525\t54435\t我今天想要問的是一個非常單純的問題就是我們退將跟這個赴中國的問題那我知道其實退將的管制主要還是在國防部所以我今天不會去碰觸到一些管制的問題比較是接觸到就是今天退役軍官在退輔會我們怎麼去對待的一些事情那第一個我是想要先從這邊看起就是說\n54975\t78162\t新聞一直都有報導就是說我們有各式軍種的一些退將復中所以其實區域平凡也越來越多在我們的整理就可以看到退役中將張燕婷她就說目前他們對於我們這個共諜就是對於軍人的滲透有四個手法第一個手法當然就是這一個尋找退役的軍官搭橋樑\n79903\t101822\t放長線釣大魚夫人幫利用女性以及一些文化交流等等的活動我比較好奇的就是因為在Peter Mattis的研究他有講過2006到2016那10年是中國滲透我們軍方的黃金10年大概有40個案件現在從16到現在也快要10年了\n102242\t102502\t李卓人議員\n122102\t150484\t他去接觸我們現役的軍人到底都是透過誰來接觸結果我們從2015一直整理到這個2023就會發現他所有的協力者都是退役的這些軍官也就是說呢剛剛講的那四個手法都是第一個手法最多啦那所以這邊我是想第一個想問的就是退伏會第一個就是有沒有知道就是整理這些退役的這些軍官他們最主要是從事什麼業務然後以及他們的年齡分佈到底是什麼樣子\n153018\t160262\t我特別為這件事情勸導我們的退除役官兵\n182552\t210335\t黃埔軍校從大陸撤退到台灣來以後整個的遷移到台灣來了我們所有的軍事訓練都以黃埔精神作為我們訓練的精神教育我們應該要認清你去參加這個活動不是去支援不是去資助而是去看他們怎麼辦但是我勸導他們\n211872\t212052\t主席\n240475\t269816\t能夠譬如說煽動挑撥製造混亂等等我給委員報告據這個距離還差得很遠以我去過二三十次中國大陸的經驗他們從來沒有人找過我怎麼會不找我呢我當過情報資質長我是空軍的上將最有這個宣傳性最有利用性他們都沒有來找我為什麼\n271389\t295943\t這些在我個人當過國防部長以後才了解這些是底下的一種驅動無法撼動我們整個退伍軍人愛國的精神是無法撼動的主委謝謝那這個我是知道就是說不管我們是對於他們的精神喊話或者說他們的勸導我覺得這當然是非常重要但因為我們在看這些案例的時候他們經營的旅遊業是蠻多的\n297564\t317826\t接下來就是這些退役的這些軍官為什麼我們想知道他的年齡分布是因為像我們都知道我們在這些退伍之前他們有一些執訓還有像剛剛你有提到有提供一些就業的幫助等等之類的所以我們是在想說如果我們對於這些退役的軍官的年紀分布是比較了解的我們就可以比較知道要怎麼把他拉住這是第一點\n318767\t337106\t第二點這個退役軍這個我先跳過就是他們除了這個以外還會做很多這些書畫什麼等等之類的一些交流等等之類你可以看到他可以把我們這個退役軍官的這些圖像就全部放在上面然後也包含了這一些所謂全球州會書畫學院文化協會的一些交流\n337686\t362247\t那這些交流非常非常的多那到底哪一些才會變成風險因為風險要控管嘛因為我們現在國家安全來講我們大概是一個案例都不能夠允許所以對於這個風險控管要怎麼做除了福利的給予之外還有執訓這些相關之外我們是不是還有其他的手段那在這邊呢我們唯一能夠想到跟退伏會比較相關的當然還是福利那在這邊呢我們也可以看到就是\n364318\t381810\t主委之前有講過就是退役的官兵如果違反這個國安法這個停退服的這個給付然後要追討這個退休分那我們現在在想的事情是因為這些判決他的曠日廢時那要等到他定案也要非常長的時間如果我們今天真的要等到那一個時候\n382190\t382330\t沈伯洋\n397506\t424814\t上司本條例的一個權益的一個做法我覺得可能只能做到停職還沒有辦法做到喪失這是第一點那第二點就是因為我們現在有反滲透法因為退役軍官呢他並不是第一點因為通常來講他們的目標是最後是現役的軍人那退役的軍官是他的中間人那這個中間人呢如果他今天被接觸之後再去接觸現役的軍人他本身是屬於這個仲介仲介最主要的規定反而是在反滲透法\n425374\t449267\t反送中法現在並沒有在這裡面的規定就是說你今天不管是要停職還是這一個喪屍所以不知道這退府會有沒有相關的這個言議能夠提出就是我們能不能夠把其他的規定放進去這是第一個那第二個就是除了這些之外能不能夠把起訴階段的就把它放在停職那這樣的話對我們來講能夠拉住這些人才會真的有一個棒子\n449787\t450827\t委員會主任委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席\n478774\t494584\t從報章雜誌跟您統計數據出數字假如我不是有軍人的背景沒有對軍人的信心我會很慌亂哦這麼多我可以跟委員報告我接觸到的基層是非常多的\n496638\t520687\t沒有人可以到目前為止這一些我把它當成小小不可能撼動國軍對於國家的熱愛也不可能煽動老百姓起來做什麼紅統都不可能所以有這個事情不要把它看得太嚴重我們已經有相關單位在中間比您講的還清楚的正在進行\n522278\t527402\t主委謝謝 最後給我5秒鐘重點我們都知道這個其實都是少數個案但因為對國家安全來講少數個案還是會造成比較大的危害所以我們還是必須要做相關的一些處理\n","txt":"那有請這個馮主委謝謝好請馮主委委員早安好早安那謝謝這個主委的這一個業務報告那這一個退輔會的作為然後以及這個一些福利的一些提供說真的是去蠻完善的我的過世的這個阿公也是八二三炮戰的榮民一直也是受到退輔會的照顧\n我今天想要問的是一個非常單純的問題就是我們退將跟這個赴中國的問題那我知道其實退將的管制主要還是在國防部所以我今天不會去碰觸到一些管制的問題比較是接觸到就是今天退役軍官在退輔會我們怎麼去對待的一些事情那第一個我是想要先從這邊看起就是說\n新聞一直都有報導就是說我們有各式軍種的一些退將復中所以其實區域平凡也越來越多在我們的整理就可以看到退役中將張燕婷她就說目前他們對於我們這個共諜就是對於軍人的滲透有四個手法第一個手法當然就是這一個尋找退役的軍官搭橋樑\n放長線釣大魚夫人幫利用女性以及一些文化交流等等的活動我比較好奇的就是因為在Peter Mattis的研究他有講過2006到2016那10年是中國滲透我們軍方的黃金10年大概有40個案件現在從16到現在也快要10年了\n李卓人議員\n他去接觸我們現役的軍人到底都是透過誰來接觸結果我們從2015一直整理到這個2023就會發現他所有的協力者都是退役的這些軍官也就是說呢剛剛講的那四個手法都是第一個手法最多啦那所以這邊我是想第一個想問的就是退伏會第一個就是有沒有知道就是整理這些退役的這些軍官他們最主要是從事什麼業務然後以及他們的年齡分佈到底是什麼樣子\n我特別為這件事情勸導我們的退除役官兵\n黃埔軍校從大陸撤退到台灣來以後整個的遷移到台灣來了我們所有的軍事訓練都以黃埔精神作為我們訓練的精神教育我們應該要認清你去參加這個活動不是去支援不是去資助而是去看他們怎麼辦但是我勸導他們\n主席\n能夠譬如說煽動挑撥製造混亂等等我給委員報告據這個距離還差得很遠以我去過二三十次中國大陸的經驗他們從來沒有人找過我怎麼會不找我呢我當過情報資質長我是空軍的上將最有這個宣傳性最有利用性他們都沒有來找我為什麼\n這些在我個人當過國防部長以後才了解這些是底下的一種驅動無法撼動我們整個退伍軍人愛國的精神是無法撼動的主委謝謝那這個我是知道就是說不管我們是對於他們的精神喊話或者說他們的勸導我覺得這當然是非常重要但因為我們在看這些案例的時候他們經營的旅遊業是蠻多的\n接下來就是這些退役的這些軍官為什麼我們想知道他的年齡分布是因為像我們都知道我們在這些退伍之前他們有一些執訓還有像剛剛你有提到有提供一些就業的幫助等等之類的所以我們是在想說如果我們對於這些退役的軍官的年紀分布是比較了解的我們就可以比較知道要怎麼把他拉住這是第一點\n第二點這個退役軍這個我先跳過就是他們除了這個以外還會做很多這些書畫什麼等等之類的一些交流等等之類你可以看到他可以把我們這個退役軍官的這些圖像就全部放在上面然後也包含了這一些所謂全球州會書畫學院文化協會的一些交流\n那這些交流非常非常的多那到底哪一些才會變成風險因為風險要控管嘛因為我們現在國家安全來講我們大概是一個案例都不能夠允許所以對於這個風險控管要怎麼做除了福利的給予之外還有執訓這些相關之外我們是不是還有其他的手段那在這邊呢我們唯一能夠想到跟退伏會比較相關的當然還是福利那在這邊呢我們也可以看到就是\n主委之前有講過就是退役的官兵如果違反這個國安法這個停退服的這個給付然後要追討這個退休分那我們現在在想的事情是因為這些判決他的曠日廢時那要等到他定案也要非常長的時間如果我們今天真的要等到那一個時候\n沈伯洋\n上司本條例的一個權益的一個做法我覺得可能只能做到停職還沒有辦法做到喪失這是第一點那第二點就是因為我們現在有反滲透法因為退役軍官呢他並不是第一點因為通常來講他們的目標是最後是現役的軍人那退役的軍官是他的中間人那這個中間人呢如果他今天被接觸之後再去接觸現役的軍人他本身是屬於這個仲介仲介最主要的規定反而是在反滲透法\n反送中法現在並沒有在這裡面的規定就是說你今天不管是要停職還是這一個喪屍所以不知道這退府會有沒有相關的這個言議能夠提出就是我們能不能夠把其他的規定放進去這是第一個那第二個就是除了這些之外能不能夠把起訴階段的就把它放在停職那這樣的話對我們來講能夠拉住這些人才會真的有一個棒子\n委員會主任委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席\n從報章雜誌跟您統計數據出數字假如我不是有軍人的背景沒有對軍人的信心我會很慌亂哦這麼多我可以跟委員報告我接觸到的基層是非常多的\n沒有人可以到目前為止這一些我把它當成小小不可能撼動國軍對於國家的熱愛也不可能煽動老百姓起來做什麼紅統都不可能所以有這個事情不要把它看得太嚴重我們已經有相關單位在中間比您講的還清楚的正在進行\n主委謝謝 最後給我5秒鐘重點我們都知道這個其實都是少數個案但因為對國家安全來講少數個案還是會造成比較大的危害所以我們還是必須要做相關的一些處理\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.735 --> 00:32.565\n那有請這個馮主委謝謝好請馮主委委員早安好早安那謝謝這個主委的這一個業務報告那這一個退輔會的作為然後以及這個一些福利的一些提供說真的是去蠻完善的我的過世的這個阿公也是八二三炮戰的榮民一直也是受到退輔會的照顧\n\n00:33.525 --> 00:54.435\n我今天想要問的是一個非常單純的問題就是我們退將跟這個赴中國的問題那我知道其實退將的管制主要還是在國防部所以我今天不會去碰觸到一些管制的問題比較是接觸到就是今天退役軍官在退輔會我們怎麼去對待的一些事情那第一個我是想要先從這邊看起就是說\n\n00:54.975 --> 01:18.162\n新聞一直都有報導就是說我們有各式軍種的一些退將復中所以其實區域平凡也越來越多在我們的整理就可以看到退役中將張燕婷她就說目前他們對於我們這個共諜就是對於軍人的滲透有四個手法第一個手法當然就是這一個尋找退役的軍官搭橋樑\n\n01:19.903 --> 01:41.822\n放長線釣大魚夫人幫利用女性以及一些文化交流等等的活動我比較好奇的就是因為在PeterMattis的研究他有講過2006到2016那10年是中國滲透我們軍方的黃金10年大概有40個案件現在從16到現在也快要10年了\n\n01:42.242 --> 01:42.502\n李卓人議員\n\n02:02.102 --> 02:30.484\n他去接觸我們現役的軍人到底都是透過誰來接觸結果我們從2015一直整理到這個2023就會發現他所有的協力者都是退役的這些軍官也就是說呢剛剛講的那四個手法都是第一個手法最多啦那所以這邊我是想第一個想問的就是退伏會第一個就是有沒有知道就是整理這些退役的這些軍官他們最主要是從事什麼業務然後以及他們的年齡分佈到底是什麼樣子\n\n02:33.018 --> 02:40.262\n我特別為這件事情勸導我們的退除役官兵\n\n03:02.552 --> 03:30.335\n黃埔軍校從大陸撤退到台灣來以後整個的遷移到台灣來了我們所有的軍事訓練都以黃埔精神作為我們訓練的精神教育我們應該要認清你去參加這個活動不是去支援不是去資助而是去看他們怎麼辦但是我勸導他們\n\n03:31.872 --> 03:32.052\n主席\n\n04:00.475 --> 04:29.816\n能夠譬如說煽動挑撥製造混亂等等我給委員報告據這個距離還差得很遠以我去過二三十次中國大陸的經驗他們從來沒有人找過我怎麼會不找我呢我當過情報資質長我是空軍的上將最有這個宣傳性最有利用性他們都沒有來找我為什麼\n\n04:31.389 --> 04:55.943\n這些在我個人當過國防部長以後才了解這些是底下的一種驅動無法撼動我們整個退伍軍人愛國的精神是無法撼動的主委謝謝那這個我是知道就是說不管我們是對於他們的精神喊話或者說他們的勸導我覺得這當然是非常重要但因為我們在看這些案例的時候他們經營的旅遊業是蠻多的\n\n04:57.564 --> 05:17.826\n接下來就是這些退役的這些軍官為什麼我們想知道他的年齡分布是因為像我們都知道我們在這些退伍之前他們有一些執訓還有像剛剛你有提到有提供一些就業的幫助等等之類的所以我們是在想說如果我們對於這些退役的軍官的年紀分布是比較了解的我們就可以比較知道要怎麼把他拉住這是第一點\n\n05:18.767 --> 05:37.106\n第二點這個退役軍這個我先跳過就是他們除了這個以外還會做很多這些書畫什麼等等之類的一些交流等等之類你可以看到他可以把我們這個退役軍官的這些圖像就全部放在上面然後也包含了這一些所謂全球州會書畫學院文化協會的一些交流\n\n05:37.686 --> 06:02.247\n那這些交流非常非常的多那到底哪一些才會變成風險因為風險要控管嘛因為我們現在國家安全來講我們大概是一個案例都不能夠允許所以對於這個風險控管要怎麼做除了福利的給予之外還有執訓這些相關之外我們是不是還有其他的手段那在這邊呢我們唯一能夠想到跟退伏會比較相關的當然還是福利那在這邊呢我們也可以看到就是\n\n06:04.318 --> 06:21.810\n主委之前有講過就是退役的官兵如果違反這個國安法這個停退服的這個給付然後要追討這個退休分那我們現在在想的事情是因為這些判決他的曠日廢時那要等到他定案也要非常長的時間如果我們今天真的要等到那一個時候\n\n06:22.190 --> 06:22.330\n沈伯洋\n\n06:37.506 --> 07:04.814\n上司本條例的一個權益的一個做法我覺得可能只能做到停職還沒有辦法做到喪失這是第一點那第二點就是因為我們現在有反滲透法因為退役軍官呢他並不是第一點因為通常來講他們的目標是最後是現役的軍人那退役的軍官是他的中間人那這個中間人呢如果他今天被接觸之後再去接觸現役的軍人他本身是屬於這個仲介仲介最主要的規定反而是在反滲透法\n\n07:05.374 --> 07:29.267\n反送中法現在並沒有在這裡面的規定就是說你今天不管是要停職還是這一個喪屍所以不知道這退府會有沒有相關的這個言議能夠提出就是我們能不能夠把其他的規定放進去這是第一個那第二個就是除了這些之外能不能夠把起訴階段的就把它放在停職那這樣的話對我們來講能夠拉住這些人才會真的有一個棒子\n\n07:29.787 --> 07:30.827\n委員會主任委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席\n\n07:58.774 --> 08:14.584\n從報章雜誌跟您統計數據出數字假如我不是有軍人的背景沒有對軍人的信心我會很慌亂哦這麼多我可以跟委員報告我接觸到的基層是非常多的\n\n08:16.638 --> 08:40.687\n沒有人可以到目前為止這一些我把它當成小小不可能撼動國軍對於國家的熱愛也不可能煽動老百姓起來做什麼紅統都不可能所以有這個事情不要把它看得太嚴重我們已經有相關單位在中間比您講的還清楚的正在進行\n\n08:42.278 --> 08:47.402\n主委謝謝最後給我5秒鐘重點我們都知道這個其實都是少數個案但因為對國家安全來講少數個案還是會造成比較大的危害所以我們還是必須要做相關的一些處理\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.735,"end":32.565,"text":"那有請這個馮主委謝謝好請馮主委委員早安好早安那謝謝這個主委的這一個業務報告那這一個退輔會的作為然後以及這個一些福利的一些提供說真的是去蠻完善的我的過世的這個阿公也是八二三炮戰的榮民一直也是受到退輔會的照顧"},{"start":33.525,"end":54.435,"text":"我今天想要問的是一個非常單純的問題就是我們退將跟這個赴中國的問題那我知道其實退將的管制主要還是在國防部所以我今天不會去碰觸到一些管制的問題比較是接觸到就是今天退役軍官在退輔會我們怎麼去對待的一些事情那第一個我是想要先從這邊看起就是說"},{"start":54.975,"end":78.162,"text":"新聞一直都有報導就是說我們有各式軍種的一些退將復中所以其實區域平凡也越來越多在我們的整理就可以看到退役中將張燕婷她就說目前他們對於我們這個共諜就是對於軍人的滲透有四個手法第一個手法當然就是這一個尋找退役的軍官搭橋樑"},{"start":79.903,"end":101.822,"text":"放長線釣大魚夫人幫利用女性以及一些文化交流等等的活動我比較好奇的就是因為在Peter Mattis的研究他有講過2006到2016那10年是中國滲透我們軍方的黃金10年大概有40個案件現在從16到現在也快要10年了"},{"start":102.242,"end":102.502,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":122.102,"end":150.484,"text":"他去接觸我們現役的軍人到底都是透過誰來接觸結果我們從2015一直整理到這個2023就會發現他所有的協力者都是退役的這些軍官也就是說呢剛剛講的那四個手法都是第一個手法最多啦那所以這邊我是想第一個想問的就是退伏會第一個就是有沒有知道就是整理這些退役的這些軍官他們最主要是從事什麼業務然後以及他們的年齡分佈到底是什麼樣子"},{"start":153.018,"end":160.262,"text":"我特別為這件事情勸導我們的退除役官兵"},{"start":182.552,"end":210.335,"text":"黃埔軍校從大陸撤退到台灣來以後整個的遷移到台灣來了我們所有的軍事訓練都以黃埔精神作為我們訓練的精神教育我們應該要認清你去參加這個活動不是去支援不是去資助而是去看他們怎麼辦但是我勸導他們"},{"start":211.872,"end":212.052,"text":"主席"},{"start":240.475,"end":269.816,"text":"能夠譬如說煽動挑撥製造混亂等等我給委員報告據這個距離還差得很遠以我去過二三十次中國大陸的經驗他們從來沒有人找過我怎麼會不找我呢我當過情報資質長我是空軍的上將最有這個宣傳性最有利用性他們都沒有來找我為什麼"},{"start":271.389,"end":295.943,"text":"這些在我個人當過國防部長以後才了解這些是底下的一種驅動無法撼動我們整個退伍軍人愛國的精神是無法撼動的主委謝謝那這個我是知道就是說不管我們是對於他們的精神喊話或者說他們的勸導我覺得這當然是非常重要但因為我們在看這些案例的時候他們經營的旅遊業是蠻多的"},{"start":297.564,"end":317.826,"text":"接下來就是這些退役的這些軍官為什麼我們想知道他的年齡分布是因為像我們都知道我們在這些退伍之前他們有一些執訓還有像剛剛你有提到有提供一些就業的幫助等等之類的所以我們是在想說如果我們對於這些退役的軍官的年紀分布是比較了解的我們就可以比較知道要怎麼把他拉住這是第一點"},{"start":318.767,"end":337.106,"text":"第二點這個退役軍這個我先跳過就是他們除了這個以外還會做很多這些書畫什麼等等之類的一些交流等等之類你可以看到他可以把我們這個退役軍官的這些圖像就全部放在上面然後也包含了這一些所謂全球州會書畫學院文化協會的一些交流"},{"start":337.686,"end":362.247,"text":"那這些交流非常非常的多那到底哪一些才會變成風險因為風險要控管嘛因為我們現在國家安全來講我們大概是一個案例都不能夠允許所以對於這個風險控管要怎麼做除了福利的給予之外還有執訓這些相關之外我們是不是還有其他的手段那在這邊呢我們唯一能夠想到跟退伏會比較相關的當然還是福利那在這邊呢我們也可以看到就是"},{"start":364.318,"end":381.81,"text":"主委之前有講過就是退役的官兵如果違反這個國安法這個停退服的這個給付然後要追討這個退休分那我們現在在想的事情是因為這些判決他的曠日廢時那要等到他定案也要非常長的時間如果我們今天真的要等到那一個時候"},{"start":382.19,"end":382.33,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":397.506,"end":424.814,"text":"上司本條例的一個權益的一個做法我覺得可能只能做到停職還沒有辦法做到喪失這是第一點那第二點就是因為我們現在有反滲透法因為退役軍官呢他並不是第一點因為通常來講他們的目標是最後是現役的軍人那退役的軍官是他的中間人那這個中間人呢如果他今天被接觸之後再去接觸現役的軍人他本身是屬於這個仲介仲介最主要的規定反而是在反滲透法"},{"start":425.374,"end":449.267,"text":"反送中法現在並沒有在這裡面的規定就是說你今天不管是要停職還是這一個喪屍所以不知道這退府會有沒有相關的這個言議能夠提出就是我們能不能夠把其他的規定放進去這是第一個那第二個就是除了這些之外能不能夠把起訴階段的就把它放在停職那這樣的話對我們來講能夠拉住這些人才會真的有一個棒子"},{"start":449.787,"end":450.827,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":478.774,"end":494.584,"text":"從報章雜誌跟您統計數據出數字假如我不是有軍人的背景沒有對軍人的信心我會很慌亂哦這麼多我可以跟委員報告我接觸到的基層是非常多的"},{"start":496.638,"end":520.687,"text":"沒有人可以到目前為止這一些我把它當成小小不可能撼動國軍對於國家的熱愛也不可能煽動老百姓起來做什麼紅統都不可能所以有這個事情不要把它看得太嚴重我們已經有相關單位在中間比您講的還清楚的正在進行"},{"start":522.278,"end":527.402,"text":"主委謝謝 最後給我5秒鐘重點我們都知道這個其實都是少數個案但因為對國家安全來講少數個案還是會造成比較大的危害所以我們還是必須要做相關的一些處理"}]}}}}