{"id":149362,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149362","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f6123b2d911fdfc7890274675d1217385f8ba9b0039caa7a6970626aac8e0cc315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"10:38:10 - 10:47:23","影片長度":"00:09:13","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員馮世寬報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-2"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":553,"end_time":"2024-03-06T10:47:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T10:38:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":411,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（10時38分）請馮主委。"],["主席：主委請。"],["馮主任委員世寬：委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：馮主委好。這是我第一次在國防外交委員會詢答，所以想先跟主委聊一些比較輕鬆一點的題目。馮主委，這幾個景點主委應該很熟悉，清境、武陵、福壽山這幾個都是退輔會在經營的高山農場，這幾年在舉辦櫻花季，我們看到其實相當成功，所以現在2月底、3月初是櫻花的季節剛好盛開，吸引非常、非常多的遊客。主委，你知道這三大高山農場每年有多少遊客嗎？"],["楊處長長政：報告委員，有176萬人。"],["洪委員申翰：清境是86萬、武陵42萬、福壽山26萬，在2023年總共是176萬，其實人數非常多。我去查了數據，這三大農場加起來，我們看到這兩年的營收數字都破了10億元，其實是很驚人的數字，這些高山農場其實都在臺灣非常重要的觀光勝地，大概也是退輔會非常重要的資產，主委同意嗎？主委，你知不知道這三大農場，我們發現它有很大的部分都位在山崩跟地滑地質敏感區，主委知不知道？"],["馮主任委員世寬：真的不十分清楚。"],["洪委員申翰：主委，我這邊跟你說明，三大高山農場在這些區域裡面，有些甚至是在大規模崩塌潛勢區，大規模崩塌潛勢區不是我講的，是農委會水保署講的，這都是相關的資料去套疊出來，發現這三大農場都在這些區域裡面，也有在土石流潛勢區的。所以主委這並不是新聞，我們剛剛看到的這些都是在經濟部地質調查中心或者是農業部水保署的資料，其實網路上面都查得到，也就是從這些資料的角度來看，這些地方都是很可能會發生山崩、土石流的地方。主委，從資料來看你同意嗎？"],["馮主任委員世寬：同意。"],["洪委員申翰：主委，我們現在看到這些在地質上面比較脆弱的地區，其實從1950年代到現在，發展很多高山的農業，包括果樹、茶樹等等，從國小、國中我們大概都知道，這些高山的農業很多對水土保持常常是有負面的影響跟衝擊，我也知道其實退輔會把很多的土地放領給農民，所以它變成私有地，退輔會也很難來管，但現在沒有辦法否認一個事情，退輔會的三大高山農場其實處在一種先天不足，它本來就在地質敏感，甚至崩塌、土石流潛勢的地方，後天又失調，因為它用了很多高山的農業，可能是超限利用的，水土保持是一個很大的衝擊。再接下來，剛剛說到遊客非常多啊！三大農場加起來，176萬。主委，在風險相對高這麼多的狀況之下，需要比較嚴格的防災規範，同不同意？同意嘛！","我們接下來就來看，退輔會其實不是沒有注意到這個問題，我們現在看到相關的成果，包括退輔會在地質敏感區要做土地開發的時候，必須先做地質調查安全評估，既有的舊建築也有進行耐震結構的補強，然後也有定期派員來巡察各設施的邊坡，從這些事情我們是有看到的，所以這部分我們可以給予肯定。可是主委我要跟你說，對於防災其實最重要的幾個觀念跟環節：第一個，平時需要監測；第二個，需要預警；第三個，要有災害應變的SOP。主委，我現在看到這三大農場在這三方面其實是滿弱的。主委，在監測跟預警或者是災害應變的部分，我們目前做了什麼？這幾個部分。"],["馮主任委員世寬：我這樣子回答您，我們對於您這一份報告，我們回去做一個檢討。"],["洪委員申翰：是。"],["馮主任委員世寬：檢討完之後把書面報告呈現給您，作為我們改進的依據。"],["洪委員申翰：好，我這邊要提醒的是，基本上這些資料全部都是來自客觀的數據跟客觀的data，不是我直接講。其實我覺得滿幸運的，因為這三大農場到目前為止還沒有發生大型的天災，但在同樣類型的地質條件、同樣類型的客觀條件，比方說我們看到有些前車之鑑，像廬山溫泉就發生過很多次的土石流，所以這是不能夠輕忽的問題。主委，我現在先請教就平時監測的狀況，我們目前看到的狀況，我把我看到的、找出來的資料客觀地呈現，現在退輔會只有每季的監測，沒有即時監測，但是在這個地方我覺得恐怕是有必要進行即時監測的。現在農委會的水保局其實有針對雨量在做監測，這部分部會做分工，我覺得是很OK的事情。接下來就牽涉到預警的問題，我們跟農委會水保局討論了，如果發生了監測超標，也就是危險程度、風險提高的時候，他們目前通報的程序是什麼？他們第一個通報地方政府，第二個通知農場。可是我們現在看到，如果要發出警戒的話，現在他們警戒的通知名單裡面，我們沒有看到要通知退輔會喔！主委，你知不知道這個狀況？"],["馮主任委員世寬：這個我……"],["洪委員申翰：主委，我再跟你報告，他們說為什麼沒有要通知退輔會，因為退輔會沒有跟他們要求，請他們在這些資料上面提供警戒的資訊跟通知。"],["馮主任委員世寬：好，下去我們改進。"],["洪委員申翰：所以我的意思是說，前面有些事情，我知道退輔會有做，可是我們目前看起來這三大，監測、預警跟災害應變上面，包括災害應變我們看到都非常非常地欠缺SOP，就算應變上面，我們只有看到你們在報告上面寫說我們會疏散遊客，但到底該怎麼疏散？尤其是當我遊客的數量大到剛剛這個程度的時候，這恐怕是要有一個疏散的計畫在做事前的規劃，甚至是需要演練的部分，我看到現在反而是退輔會在災害應變上面，我覺得意識真的是有所不足，這是我想提醒主委的地方，可以嗎？"],["馮主任委員世寬：對，我列入改進。"],["洪委員申翰：好，主委，接下來一個事情，我想要在最後一個地方再提醒，我看到你們在今天的報告第19頁有寫到，你們提升服務的品質、強化營運的績效，尤其是你們會以生態保育、自然景觀跟環境保護為主軸，這是你們寫在你們報告裡面的。我剛剛除了災害的部分以外，我其實也想跟主委提醒一下，接下來在這些高山農場的未來狀況。我們很希望退輔會不要只以觀光的效益為考量，其實恐怕你也應該要注意到包括水土保持這些問題，如果要注意到、關注到水土保持問題的時候，其實有很多專家，這段時間，從我們來到外交國防以後，他們就來跟我們說，很希望退輔會在高山農場經營的時候，不要破壞原生的植被，要儘量種臺灣原生種的物種的作物。比方說如果要櫻花，那就是希望選擇像是我們的山櫻花，儘量保持原生的物種，其實這對於接下來預防災害或氣候變遷都有很大的助益、很大的效果。這部分我也希望能夠提醒我們退輔會或者是楊處長，然後在後續經營的時候應該用這個原則來思考，才比較能夠符合你們在報告上面寫的這個主軸，可以嗎？"],["馮主任委員世寬：謝謝委員。"],["洪委員申翰：好，我剛剛講的部分，我可不可以請主委2個月的時間，給我們一個澈底的盤點跟相關檢討應變的強化作為，可以嗎？"],["馮主任委員世寬：可以。"],["洪委員申翰：2個月。"],["馮主任委員世寬：是。"],["洪委員申翰：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。災害風險韌性的評估報告到時候報委員會，委員本身以外，讓本會委員也知道，謝謝，謝謝洪申翰委員。","接下來進行詢答委員，陳冠廷委員，陳冠廷委員詢答結束後休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-2","speakers":["王定宇","沈伯洋","林楚茵","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","徐巧芯","洪申翰","陳冠廷","馬文君","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":329,"meetingDate":["2024-03-06"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員馮世寬報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130601_00010"}},"transcript":{"id":"149362","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149362","tool":"pyannote","id":"149362-pyannote"},"job_id":"R5i7pKyncT7iABuv","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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\"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 515.746, \"end\": 515.846, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 515.846, \"end\": 515.866, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 515.866, \"end\": 515.886, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 515.886, \"end\": 515.906, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"災\"}, {\"word\": \"害\", \"start\": 541.013, \"end\": 541.174, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"風\"}, {\"word\": \"險\"}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 541.174, \"end\": 541.274, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 541.274, \"end\": 541.394, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 541.394, \"end\": 541.675, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"評\"}, {\"word\": \"估\", \"start\": 541.675, \"end\": 542.356, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 542.356, \"end\": 542.416, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 542.416, \"end\": 542.436, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 542.436, \"end\": 542.496, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 542.496, \"end\": 542.516, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,610 --> 00:00:11,541\n好請封主委主委請委員好\n\n2\n00:00:16,397 --> 00:00:31,963\n馮主委好這是我第一次在國防外交委員會巡達所以想先跟主委這邊聊一些比較輕鬆一點的題目馮主委這幾個景點馮主委應該很熟悉這個清境武林福壽山\n\n3\n00:00:33,924 --> 00:00:53,198\n這幾個都是退福會在經營的高山農場所以這幾年其實在舉辦櫻花祭其實我們看到其實相當成功所以現在2月底3月初櫻花剛好現在是櫻花的季節剛好盛開吸引非常非常多的遊客所以主委你知道這三大高山農場每年有多少遊客嗎?包括人176萬人\n\n4\n00:01:01,397 --> 00:01:06,440\n這個清淨是86萬5042萬福壽山26萬這個在2023年總共是176萬其實人數非常多這個我去查了數據這三大農場加起來在這個數據上其實這個兩年的營收我們看到的數字是都破了10億元其實是很驚人的數字\n\n5\n00:01:24,449 --> 00:01:52,091\n所以這些高山農場其實它都在台灣非常重要的觀光的聖地其實當然也是退福會非常重要的資產主委同意嗎那主委你知不知道這三大農場其實我們發現了它有很大的部分其實都位在這個所謂山崩跟地華的地殖民感區主委知不知道這個真的不十分清楚好主委那我這邊跟你說\n\n6\n00:01:55,785 --> 00:02:14,265\n這幾個三大高山農場在這些區域裏面那很多有些甚至是在大規模崩塌的潛勢區這大規模崩塌潛勢區不是我講的是農委會的水保署講的所以這都是相關的資料去套疊出來發現這三大農場都在這些區域裏面那也有在土石流潛勢區的\n\n7\n00:02:16,948 --> 00:02:34,900\n主委這並不是新聞這些都是我們剛剛看到的在經濟部的地質調查中心或者是農業部的水保署那其實網路上面都查得到也就是從這些資料的角度來看這些地方都是很可能會發生山崩土石油的地方主委從資料來看你同意嗎\n\n8\n00:02:36,301 --> 00:02:57,339\n統一我們現在看到這些在地質上面比較脆弱的地區他其實從1950年代到現在那發展很多高山的農業包括果樹、茶樹等等等其實我們都知道我們念過這個從國小、國中大家都知道其實這些高山的農業其實很多對水土保持也是\n\n9\n00:02:58,140 --> 00:02:58,400\n委員會主任\n\n10\n00:03:14,591 --> 00:03:35,699\n推幅會的三大高山農場其實處在一種先天不足他本來就在地質敏感甚至崩塌土石又潛勢的地方後天又失調因為他用很多高山的農業他可能是超限利用的所以就保持是個很大的衝擊在接下來剛剛說到遊客非常多176萬加起來三大農場所以這個\n\n11\n00:03:38,635 --> 00:03:45,768\n主委在風險相對高這麼多的狀況之下需要比較嚴格的防災的規範主委同不同意\n\n12\n00:03:47,196 --> 00:04:10,205\n同意嗎那我們接下來就來看了退伏會其實不是沒有注意到這個問題我們現在看到相關的成果包括退伏會有做在這個地質敏感要做土地開發的時候要必須先做地質調查安全評估既有的舊建築也有進行耐震結構的補強然後也有定期派員來巡查各設施的邊坡這些事情我們看到\n\n13\n00:04:10,965 --> 00:04:33,978\n是有的所以這部分我們可以給予肯定可是主委我要跟你說其實我們對於防災其實最重要的幾個最重要的觀念跟環節第一個平時需要監測第二個需要預警第三個要有災害應變的SOP主委我現在看到我們這三大農場在這三方面其實是蠻弱的\n\n14\n00:04:37,432 --> 00:04:55,005\n對這個三大我們在這個監測跟預警或者是災害應變我們目前做了什麼這幾個部分這個我這樣子回答您我們對於您這個報告我們回去做一個檢討是檢討完之後把書面報告呈現給您\n\n15\n00:04:58,628 --> 00:05:17,010\n作為我們改進的依據我這邊要提醒的是因為基本上這些資料全部都是來自客觀的數據跟客觀的data不是我直接講所以包括我要說其實我覺得蠻幸運因為這三大農場到目前為止還沒有發生大型的天災但其實\n\n16\n00:05:18,291 --> 00:05:46,800\n同樣類型的地質條件同樣類型的客觀條件其實比方我們看到有些前車之鑒像廬山溫泉就發生過很多次的土石流所以這是不能夠輕忽的問題所以各位我想現在先請教其實就我們現在就平時的監測的狀況我們目前看到的狀況我把我看到的找出來的資料客觀的呈現現在這個退府會只有每季的監測但沒有即時監測\n\n17\n00:05:48,649 --> 00:06:16,757\n但其實在這個地方我覺得恐怕是有必要進行及時監測的但現在農委會的水保局其實有針對雨量在做監測這部分不會做分工我覺得是很OK的事情但接下來就牽涉到獄警的問題我們跟農委會的水保局討論了如果發生了監測超標也就是危險的程度風險提高的時候他們目前通報的程序是什麼他們第一個通報地方政府第二個這個\n\n18\n00:06:19,110 --> 00:06:19,830\n主委你知不知道這個狀況\n\n19\n00:06:39,079 --> 00:06:57,821\n主委我再跟你報告他們說為什麼沒有要通知退府會因為退府會沒有跟他們要求要請他們在這些資料上面提供警戒的資訊跟通知所以我的意思是說我知道前面有做的事情我知道退府會有做可是我們目前看起來這是三大\n\n20\n00:07:00,147 --> 00:07:15,406\n監測預警跟災害應變上面包括災害應變我們看到都非常非常的欠缺SOP就算應變上面我們只有看到你們在報告上面寫說我們會疏散遊客但到底該怎麼疏散尤其是當我遊客的數量大到剛剛這個程度的時候\n\n21\n00:07:17,368 --> 00:07:41,798\n這恐怕是要有一個疏散的計畫在做事前的規劃甚至是需要演練的部分我目前看到現在反而是退不回在這部分災害應變上面的我覺得意識真的是有所不足這是我想提醒諸位的地方可以嗎對我列入改進好所以接下來一個事情我想要在最後一個地方再提醒我看到你們在報告這次今天的報告第19頁有寫到\n\n22\n00:07:44,079 --> 00:08:11,616\n這個你們提升服務的品質強化營運的績效尤其是你們會以生態的保育自然景觀跟環境保護為主軸這是你們寫在你們報告裡面的那我剛剛除了災害的部分以外我其實也想跟主委提醒一下接下來我們在這些高山農場的未來的狀況我們很希望退輔會不要只以觀光的效益為考量其實恐怕你也應該要注意到包括水土保持這些問題所以當如果要注意到關注到水土保持的問題的時候\n\n23\n00:08:13,237 --> 00:08:34,826\n其實有很多專家一直這段時間從我們來到外交國防以後他們就來跟我們說很希望退伍會在我們高山農場的經營的時候不要破壞原生的植批要盡量種台灣原生種的這些物種的作物比方說如果要櫻花那就是希望比較選擇像是我們的山櫻花\n\n24\n00:08:35,566 --> 00:08:35,906\n謝謝委員我可不可以請主委\n\n25\n00:09:01,013 --> 00:09:02,516\n災害風險任性的評估報告到時候報委員會\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n610\t11541\t好請封主委主委請委員好\n16397\t31963\t馮主委好這是我第一次在國防外交委員會巡達所以想先跟主委這邊聊一些比較輕鬆一點的題目馮主委這幾個景點馮主委應該很熟悉這個清境武林福壽山\n33924\t53198\t這幾個都是退福會在經營的高山農場所以這幾年其實在舉辦櫻花祭其實我們看到其實相當成功所以現在2月底3月初櫻花剛好現在是櫻花的季節剛好盛開吸引非常非常多的遊客所以主委你知道這三大高山農場每年有多少遊客嗎?包括人176萬人\n61397\t66440\t這個清淨是86萬5042萬福壽山26萬這個在2023年總共是176萬其實人數非常多這個我去查了數據這三大農場加起來在這個數據上其實這個兩年的營收我們看到的數字是都破了10億元其實是很驚人的數字\n84449\t112091\t所以這些高山農場其實它都在台灣非常重要的觀光的聖地其實當然也是退福會非常重要的資產主委同意嗎那主委你知不知道這三大農場其實我們發現了它有很大的部分其實都位在這個所謂山崩跟地華的地殖民感區主委知不知道這個真的不十分清楚好主委那我這邊跟你說\n115785\t134265\t這幾個三大高山農場在這些區域裏面那很多有些甚至是在大規模崩塌的潛勢區這大規模崩塌潛勢區不是我講的是農委會的水保署講的所以這都是相關的資料去套疊出來發現這三大農場都在這些區域裏面那也有在土石流潛勢區的\n136948\t154900\t主委這並不是新聞這些都是我們剛剛看到的在經濟部的地質調查中心或者是農業部的水保署那其實網路上面都查得到也就是從這些資料的角度來看這些地方都是很可能會發生山崩土石油的地方主委從資料來看你同意嗎\n156301\t177339\t統一我們現在看到這些在地質上面比較脆弱的地區他其實從1950年代到現在那發展很多高山的農業包括果樹、茶樹等等等其實我們都知道我們念過這個從國小、國中大家都知道其實這些高山的農業其實很多對水土保持也是\n178140\t178400\t委員會主任\n194591\t215699\t推幅會的三大高山農場其實處在一種先天不足他本來就在地質敏感甚至崩塌土石又潛勢的地方後天又失調因為他用很多高山的農業他可能是超限利用的所以就保持是個很大的衝擊在接下來剛剛說到遊客非常多176萬加起來三大農場所以這個\n218635\t225768\t主委在風險相對高這麼多的狀況之下需要比較嚴格的防災的規範主委同不同意\n227196\t250205\t同意嗎那我們接下來就來看了退伏會其實不是沒有注意到這個問題我們現在看到相關的成果包括退伏會有做在這個地質敏感要做土地開發的時候要必須先做地質調查安全評估既有的舊建築也有進行耐震結構的補強然後也有定期派員來巡查各設施的邊坡這些事情我們看到\n250965\t273978\t是有的所以這部分我們可以給予肯定可是主委我要跟你說其實我們對於防災其實最重要的幾個最重要的觀念跟環節第一個平時需要監測第二個需要預警第三個要有災害應變的SOP主委我現在看到我們這三大農場在這三方面其實是蠻弱的\n277432\t295005\t對 這個三大我們在這個監測跟預警或者是災害應變我們目前做了什麼這幾個部分這個我這樣子回答您我們對於您這個報告我們回去做一個檢討是檢討完之後把書面報告呈現給您\n298628\t317010\t作為我們改進的依據我這邊要提醒的是因為基本上這些資料全部都是來自客觀的數據跟客觀的data不是我直接講所以包括我要說其實我覺得蠻幸運因為這三大農場到目前為止還沒有發生大型的天災但其實\n318291\t346800\t同樣類型的地質條件同樣類型的客觀條件其實比方我們看到有些前車之鑒像廬山溫泉就發生過很多次的土石流所以這是不能夠輕忽的問題所以各位我想現在先請教其實就我們現在就平時的監測的狀況我們目前看到的狀況我把我看到的找出來的資料客觀的呈現現在這個退府會只有每季的監測但沒有即時監測\n348649\t376757\t但其實在這個地方我覺得恐怕是有必要進行及時監測的但現在農委會的水保局其實有針對雨量在做監測這部分不會做分工我覺得是很OK的事情但接下來就牽涉到獄警的問題我們跟農委會的水保局討論了如果發生了監測超標也就是危險的程度風險提高的時候他們目前通報的程序是什麼他們第一個通報地方政府第二個這個\n379110\t379830\t主委你知不知道這個狀況\n399079\t417821\t主委我再跟你報告他們說為什麼沒有要通知退府會因為退府會沒有跟他們要求要請他們在這些資料上面提供警戒的資訊跟通知所以我的意思是說我知道前面有做的事情我知道退府會有做可是我們目前看起來這是三大\n420147\t435406\t監測預警跟災害應變上面包括災害應變我們看到都非常非常的欠缺SOP就算應變上面我們只有看到你們在報告上面寫說我們會疏散遊客但到底該怎麼疏散尤其是當我遊客的數量大到剛剛這個程度的時候\n437368\t461798\t這恐怕是要有一個疏散的計畫在做事前的規劃甚至是需要演練的部分我目前看到現在反而是退不回在這部分災害應變上面的我覺得意識真的是有所不足這是我想提醒諸位的地方可以嗎對我列入改進好所以接下來一個事情我想要在最後一個地方再提醒我看到你們在報告這次今天的報告第19頁有寫到\n464079\t491616\t這個你們提升服務的品質強化營運的績效尤其是你們會以生態的保育自然景觀跟環境保護為主軸這是你們寫在你們報告裡面的那我剛剛除了災害的部分以外我其實也想跟主委提醒一下接下來我們在這些高山農場的未來的狀況我們很希望退輔會不要只以觀光的效益為考量其實恐怕你也應該要注意到包括水土保持這些問題所以當如果要注意到關注到水土保持的問題的時候\n493237\t514826\t其實有很多專家一直這段時間從我們來到外交國防以後他們就來跟我們說很希望退伍會在我們高山農場的經營的時候不要破壞原生的植批要盡量種台灣原生種的這些物種的作物比方說如果要櫻花那就是希望比較選擇像是我們的山櫻花\n515566\t515906\t謝謝委員我可不可以請主委\n541013\t542516\t災害風險任性的評估報告到時候報委員會\n","txt":"好請封主委主委請委員好\n馮主委好這是我第一次在國防外交委員會巡達所以想先跟主委這邊聊一些比較輕鬆一點的題目馮主委這幾個景點馮主委應該很熟悉這個清境武林福壽山\n這幾個都是退福會在經營的高山農場所以這幾年其實在舉辦櫻花祭其實我們看到其實相當成功所以現在2月底3月初櫻花剛好現在是櫻花的季節剛好盛開吸引非常非常多的遊客所以主委你知道這三大高山農場每年有多少遊客嗎?包括人176萬人\n這個清淨是86萬5042萬福壽山26萬這個在2023年總共是176萬其實人數非常多這個我去查了數據這三大農場加起來在這個數據上其實這個兩年的營收我們看到的數字是都破了10億元其實是很驚人的數字\n所以這些高山農場其實它都在台灣非常重要的觀光的聖地其實當然也是退福會非常重要的資產主委同意嗎那主委你知不知道這三大農場其實我們發現了它有很大的部分其實都位在這個所謂山崩跟地華的地殖民感區主委知不知道這個真的不十分清楚好主委那我這邊跟你說\n這幾個三大高山農場在這些區域裏面那很多有些甚至是在大規模崩塌的潛勢區這大規模崩塌潛勢區不是我講的是農委會的水保署講的所以這都是相關的資料去套疊出來發現這三大農場都在這些區域裏面那也有在土石流潛勢區的\n主委這並不是新聞這些都是我們剛剛看到的在經濟部的地質調查中心或者是農業部的水保署那其實網路上面都查得到也就是從這些資料的角度來看這些地方都是很可能會發生山崩土石油的地方主委從資料來看你同意嗎\n統一我們現在看到這些在地質上面比較脆弱的地區他其實從1950年代到現在那發展很多高山的農業包括果樹、茶樹等等等其實我們都知道我們念過這個從國小、國中大家都知道其實這些高山的農業其實很多對水土保持也是\n委員會主任\n推幅會的三大高山農場其實處在一種先天不足他本來就在地質敏感甚至崩塌土石又潛勢的地方後天又失調因為他用很多高山的農業他可能是超限利用的所以就保持是個很大的衝擊在接下來剛剛說到遊客非常多176萬加起來三大農場所以這個\n主委在風險相對高這麼多的狀況之下需要比較嚴格的防災的規範主委同不同意\n同意嗎那我們接下來就來看了退伏會其實不是沒有注意到這個問題我們現在看到相關的成果包括退伏會有做在這個地質敏感要做土地開發的時候要必須先做地質調查安全評估既有的舊建築也有進行耐震結構的補強然後也有定期派員來巡查各設施的邊坡這些事情我們看到\n是有的所以這部分我們可以給予肯定可是主委我要跟你說其實我們對於防災其實最重要的幾個最重要的觀念跟環節第一個平時需要監測第二個需要預警第三個要有災害應變的SOP主委我現在看到我們這三大農場在這三方面其實是蠻弱的\n對 這個三大我們在這個監測跟預警或者是災害應變我們目前做了什麼這幾個部分這個我這樣子回答您我們對於您這個報告我們回去做一個檢討是檢討完之後把書面報告呈現給您\n作為我們改進的依據我這邊要提醒的是因為基本上這些資料全部都是來自客觀的數據跟客觀的data不是我直接講所以包括我要說其實我覺得蠻幸運因為這三大農場到目前為止還沒有發生大型的天災但其實\n同樣類型的地質條件同樣類型的客觀條件其實比方我們看到有些前車之鑒像廬山溫泉就發生過很多次的土石流所以這是不能夠輕忽的問題所以各位我想現在先請教其實就我們現在就平時的監測的狀況我們目前看到的狀況我把我看到的找出來的資料客觀的呈現現在這個退府會只有每季的監測但沒有即時監測\n但其實在這個地方我覺得恐怕是有必要進行及時監測的但現在農委會的水保局其實有針對雨量在做監測這部分不會做分工我覺得是很OK的事情但接下來就牽涉到獄警的問題我們跟農委會的水保局討論了如果發生了監測超標也就是危險的程度風險提高的時候他們目前通報的程序是什麼他們第一個通報地方政府第二個這個\n主委你知不知道這個狀況\n主委我再跟你報告他們說為什麼沒有要通知退府會因為退府會沒有跟他們要求要請他們在這些資料上面提供警戒的資訊跟通知所以我的意思是說我知道前面有做的事情我知道退府會有做可是我們目前看起來這是三大\n監測預警跟災害應變上面包括災害應變我們看到都非常非常的欠缺SOP就算應變上面我們只有看到你們在報告上面寫說我們會疏散遊客但到底該怎麼疏散尤其是當我遊客的數量大到剛剛這個程度的時候\n這恐怕是要有一個疏散的計畫在做事前的規劃甚至是需要演練的部分我目前看到現在反而是退不回在這部分災害應變上面的我覺得意識真的是有所不足這是我想提醒諸位的地方可以嗎對我列入改進好所以接下來一個事情我想要在最後一個地方再提醒我看到你們在報告這次今天的報告第19頁有寫到\n這個你們提升服務的品質強化營運的績效尤其是你們會以生態的保育自然景觀跟環境保護為主軸這是你們寫在你們報告裡面的那我剛剛除了災害的部分以外我其實也想跟主委提醒一下接下來我們在這些高山農場的未來的狀況我們很希望退輔會不要只以觀光的效益為考量其實恐怕你也應該要注意到包括水土保持這些問題所以當如果要注意到關注到水土保持的問題的時候\n其實有很多專家一直這段時間從我們來到外交國防以後他們就來跟我們說很希望退伍會在我們高山農場的經營的時候不要破壞原生的植批要盡量種台灣原生種的這些物種的作物比方說如果要櫻花那就是希望比較選擇像是我們的山櫻花\n謝謝委員我可不可以請主委\n災害風險任性的評估報告到時候報委員會\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.610 --> 00:11.541\n好請封主委主委請委員好\n\n00:16.397 --> 00:31.963\n馮主委好這是我第一次在國防外交委員會巡達所以想先跟主委這邊聊一些比較輕鬆一點的題目馮主委這幾個景點馮主委應該很熟悉這個清境武林福壽山\n\n00:33.924 --> 00:53.198\n這幾個都是退福會在經營的高山農場所以這幾年其實在舉辦櫻花祭其實我們看到其實相當成功所以現在2月底3月初櫻花剛好現在是櫻花的季節剛好盛開吸引非常非常多的遊客所以主委你知道這三大高山農場每年有多少遊客嗎?包括人176萬人\n\n01:01.397 --> 01:06.440\n這個清淨是86萬5042萬福壽山26萬這個在2023年總共是176萬其實人數非常多這個我去查了數據這三大農場加起來在這個數據上其實這個兩年的營收我們看到的數字是都破了10億元其實是很驚人的數字\n\n01:24.449 --> 01:52.091\n所以這些高山農場其實它都在台灣非常重要的觀光的聖地其實當然也是退福會非常重要的資產主委同意嗎那主委你知不知道這三大農場其實我們發現了它有很大的部分其實都位在這個所謂山崩跟地華的地殖民感區主委知不知道這個真的不十分清楚好主委那我這邊跟你說\n\n01:55.785 --> 02:14.265\n這幾個三大高山農場在這些區域裏面那很多有些甚至是在大規模崩塌的潛勢區這大規模崩塌潛勢區不是我講的是農委會的水保署講的所以這都是相關的資料去套疊出來發現這三大農場都在這些區域裏面那也有在土石流潛勢區的\n\n02:16.948 --> 02:34.900\n主委這並不是新聞這些都是我們剛剛看到的在經濟部的地質調查中心或者是農業部的水保署那其實網路上面都查得到也就是從這些資料的角度來看這些地方都是很可能會發生山崩土石油的地方主委從資料來看你同意嗎\n\n02:36.301 --> 02:57.339\n統一我們現在看到這些在地質上面比較脆弱的地區他其實從1950年代到現在那發展很多高山的農業包括果樹、茶樹等等等其實我們都知道我們念過這個從國小、國中大家都知道其實這些高山的農業其實很多對水土保持也是\n\n02:58.140 --> 02:58.400\n委員會主任\n\n03:14.591 --> 03:35.699\n推幅會的三大高山農場其實處在一種先天不足他本來就在地質敏感甚至崩塌土石又潛勢的地方後天又失調因為他用很多高山的農業他可能是超限利用的所以就保持是個很大的衝擊在接下來剛剛說到遊客非常多176萬加起來三大農場所以這個\n\n03:38.635 --> 03:45.768\n主委在風險相對高這麼多的狀況之下需要比較嚴格的防災的規範主委同不同意\n\n03:47.196 --> 04:10.205\n同意嗎那我們接下來就來看了退伏會其實不是沒有注意到這個問題我們現在看到相關的成果包括退伏會有做在這個地質敏感要做土地開發的時候要必須先做地質調查安全評估既有的舊建築也有進行耐震結構的補強然後也有定期派員來巡查各設施的邊坡這些事情我們看到\n\n04:10.965 --> 04:33.978\n是有的所以這部分我們可以給予肯定可是主委我要跟你說其實我們對於防災其實最重要的幾個最重要的觀念跟環節第一個平時需要監測第二個需要預警第三個要有災害應變的SOP主委我現在看到我們這三大農場在這三方面其實是蠻弱的\n\n04:37.432 --> 04:55.005\n對這個三大我們在這個監測跟預警或者是災害應變我們目前做了什麼這幾個部分這個我這樣子回答您我們對於您這個報告我們回去做一個檢討是檢討完之後把書面報告呈現給您\n\n04:58.628 --> 05:17.010\n作為我們改進的依據我這邊要提醒的是因為基本上這些資料全部都是來自客觀的數據跟客觀的data不是我直接講所以包括我要說其實我覺得蠻幸運因為這三大農場到目前為止還沒有發生大型的天災但其實\n\n05:18.291 --> 05:46.800\n同樣類型的地質條件同樣類型的客觀條件其實比方我們看到有些前車之鑒像廬山溫泉就發生過很多次的土石流所以這是不能夠輕忽的問題所以各位我想現在先請教其實就我們現在就平時的監測的狀況我們目前看到的狀況我把我看到的找出來的資料客觀的呈現現在這個退府會只有每季的監測但沒有即時監測\n\n05:48.649 --> 06:16.757\n但其實在這個地方我覺得恐怕是有必要進行及時監測的但現在農委會的水保局其實有針對雨量在做監測這部分不會做分工我覺得是很OK的事情但接下來就牽涉到獄警的問題我們跟農委會的水保局討論了如果發生了監測超標也就是危險的程度風險提高的時候他們目前通報的程序是什麼他們第一個通報地方政府第二個這個\n\n06:19.110 --> 06:19.830\n主委你知不知道這個狀況\n\n06:39.079 --> 06:57.821\n主委我再跟你報告他們說為什麼沒有要通知退府會因為退府會沒有跟他們要求要請他們在這些資料上面提供警戒的資訊跟通知所以我的意思是說我知道前面有做的事情我知道退府會有做可是我們目前看起來這是三大\n\n07:00.147 --> 07:15.406\n監測預警跟災害應變上面包括災害應變我們看到都非常非常的欠缺SOP就算應變上面我們只有看到你們在報告上面寫說我們會疏散遊客但到底該怎麼疏散尤其是當我遊客的數量大到剛剛這個程度的時候\n\n07:17.368 --> 07:41.798\n這恐怕是要有一個疏散的計畫在做事前的規劃甚至是需要演練的部分我目前看到現在反而是退不回在這部分災害應變上面的我覺得意識真的是有所不足這是我想提醒諸位的地方可以嗎對我列入改進好所以接下來一個事情我想要在最後一個地方再提醒我看到你們在報告這次今天的報告第19頁有寫到\n\n07:44.079 --> 08:11.616\n這個你們提升服務的品質強化營運的績效尤其是你們會以生態的保育自然景觀跟環境保護為主軸這是你們寫在你們報告裡面的那我剛剛除了災害的部分以外我其實也想跟主委提醒一下接下來我們在這些高山農場的未來的狀況我們很希望退輔會不要只以觀光的效益為考量其實恐怕你也應該要注意到包括水土保持這些問題所以當如果要注意到關注到水土保持的問題的時候\n\n08:13.237 --> 08:34.826\n其實有很多專家一直這段時間從我們來到外交國防以後他們就來跟我們說很希望退伍會在我們高山農場的經營的時候不要破壞原生的植批要盡量種台灣原生種的這些物種的作物比方說如果要櫻花那就是希望比較選擇像是我們的山櫻花\n\n08:35.566 --> 08:35.906\n謝謝委員我可不可以請主委\n\n09:01.013 --> 09:02.516\n災害風險任性的評估報告到時候報委員會\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.61,"end":11.541,"text":"好請封主委主委請委員好"},{"start":16.397,"end":31.963,"text":"馮主委好這是我第一次在國防外交委員會巡達所以想先跟主委這邊聊一些比較輕鬆一點的題目馮主委這幾個景點馮主委應該很熟悉這個清境武林福壽山"},{"start":33.924,"end":53.198,"text":"這幾個都是退福會在經營的高山農場所以這幾年其實在舉辦櫻花祭其實我們看到其實相當成功所以現在2月底3月初櫻花剛好現在是櫻花的季節剛好盛開吸引非常非常多的遊客所以主委你知道這三大高山農場每年有多少遊客嗎?包括人176萬人"},{"start":61.397,"end":66.44,"text":"這個清淨是86萬5042萬福壽山26萬這個在2023年總共是176萬其實人數非常多這個我去查了數據這三大農場加起來在這個數據上其實這個兩年的營收我們看到的數字是都破了10億元其實是很驚人的數字"},{"start":84.449,"end":112.091,"text":"所以這些高山農場其實它都在台灣非常重要的觀光的聖地其實當然也是退福會非常重要的資產主委同意嗎那主委你知不知道這三大農場其實我們發現了它有很大的部分其實都位在這個所謂山崩跟地華的地殖民感區主委知不知道這個真的不十分清楚好主委那我這邊跟你說"},{"start":115.785,"end":134.265,"text":"這幾個三大高山農場在這些區域裏面那很多有些甚至是在大規模崩塌的潛勢區這大規模崩塌潛勢區不是我講的是農委會的水保署講的所以這都是相關的資料去套疊出來發現這三大農場都在這些區域裏面那也有在土石流潛勢區的"},{"start":136.948,"end":154.9,"text":"主委這並不是新聞這些都是我們剛剛看到的在經濟部的地質調查中心或者是農業部的水保署那其實網路上面都查得到也就是從這些資料的角度來看這些地方都是很可能會發生山崩土石油的地方主委從資料來看你同意嗎"},{"start":156.301,"end":177.339,"text":"統一我們現在看到這些在地質上面比較脆弱的地區他其實從1950年代到現在那發展很多高山的農業包括果樹、茶樹等等等其實我們都知道我們念過這個從國小、國中大家都知道其實這些高山的農業其實很多對水土保持也是"},{"start":178.14,"end":178.4,"text":"委員會主任"},{"start":194.591,"end":215.699,"text":"推幅會的三大高山農場其實處在一種先天不足他本來就在地質敏感甚至崩塌土石又潛勢的地方後天又失調因為他用很多高山的農業他可能是超限利用的所以就保持是個很大的衝擊在接下來剛剛說到遊客非常多176萬加起來三大農場所以這個"},{"start":218.635,"end":225.768,"text":"主委在風險相對高這麼多的狀況之下需要比較嚴格的防災的規範主委同不同意"},{"start":227.196,"end":250.205,"text":"同意嗎那我們接下來就來看了退伏會其實不是沒有注意到這個問題我們現在看到相關的成果包括退伏會有做在這個地質敏感要做土地開發的時候要必須先做地質調查安全評估既有的舊建築也有進行耐震結構的補強然後也有定期派員來巡查各設施的邊坡這些事情我們看到"},{"start":250.965,"end":273.978,"text":"是有的所以這部分我們可以給予肯定可是主委我要跟你說其實我們對於防災其實最重要的幾個最重要的觀念跟環節第一個平時需要監測第二個需要預警第三個要有災害應變的SOP主委我現在看到我們這三大農場在這三方面其實是蠻弱的"},{"start":277.432,"end":295.005,"text":"對 這個三大我們在這個監測跟預警或者是災害應變我們目前做了什麼這幾個部分這個我這樣子回答您我們對於您這個報告我們回去做一個檢討是檢討完之後把書面報告呈現給您"},{"start":298.628,"end":317.01,"text":"作為我們改進的依據我這邊要提醒的是因為基本上這些資料全部都是來自客觀的數據跟客觀的data不是我直接講所以包括我要說其實我覺得蠻幸運因為這三大農場到目前為止還沒有發生大型的天災但其實"},{"start":318.291,"end":346.8,"text":"同樣類型的地質條件同樣類型的客觀條件其實比方我們看到有些前車之鑒像廬山溫泉就發生過很多次的土石流所以這是不能夠輕忽的問題所以各位我想現在先請教其實就我們現在就平時的監測的狀況我們目前看到的狀況我把我看到的找出來的資料客觀的呈現現在這個退府會只有每季的監測但沒有即時監測"},{"start":348.649,"end":376.757,"text":"但其實在這個地方我覺得恐怕是有必要進行及時監測的但現在農委會的水保局其實有針對雨量在做監測這部分不會做分工我覺得是很OK的事情但接下來就牽涉到獄警的問題我們跟農委會的水保局討論了如果發生了監測超標也就是危險的程度風險提高的時候他們目前通報的程序是什麼他們第一個通報地方政府第二個這個"},{"start":379.11,"end":379.83,"text":"主委你知不知道這個狀況"},{"start":399.079,"end":417.821,"text":"主委我再跟你報告他們說為什麼沒有要通知退府會因為退府會沒有跟他們要求要請他們在這些資料上面提供警戒的資訊跟通知所以我的意思是說我知道前面有做的事情我知道退府會有做可是我們目前看起來這是三大"},{"start":420.147,"end":435.406,"text":"監測預警跟災害應變上面包括災害應變我們看到都非常非常的欠缺SOP就算應變上面我們只有看到你們在報告上面寫說我們會疏散遊客但到底該怎麼疏散尤其是當我遊客的數量大到剛剛這個程度的時候"},{"start":437.368,"end":461.798,"text":"這恐怕是要有一個疏散的計畫在做事前的規劃甚至是需要演練的部分我目前看到現在反而是退不回在這部分災害應變上面的我覺得意識真的是有所不足這是我想提醒諸位的地方可以嗎對我列入改進好所以接下來一個事情我想要在最後一個地方再提醒我看到你們在報告這次今天的報告第19頁有寫到"},{"start":464.079,"end":491.616,"text":"這個你們提升服務的品質強化營運的績效尤其是你們會以生態的保育自然景觀跟環境保護為主軸這是你們寫在你們報告裡面的那我剛剛除了災害的部分以外我其實也想跟主委提醒一下接下來我們在這些高山農場的未來的狀況我們很希望退輔會不要只以觀光的效益為考量其實恐怕你也應該要注意到包括水土保持這些問題所以當如果要注意到關注到水土保持的問題的時候"},{"start":493.237,"end":514.826,"text":"其實有很多專家一直這段時間從我們來到外交國防以後他們就來跟我們說很希望退伍會在我們高山農場的經營的時候不要破壞原生的植批要盡量種台灣原生種的這些物種的作物比方說如果要櫻花那就是希望比較選擇像是我們的山櫻花"},{"start":515.566,"end":515.906,"text":"謝謝委員我可不可以請主委"},{"start":541.013,"end":542.516,"text":"災害風險任性的評估報告到時候報委員會"}]}}}}