{"id":149367,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149367","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172fa21783910389668c3ce99dc43694a3e0f8ba9b0039caa7a6e0b9b733f13866c75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"傅崐萁","委員發言時間":"10:58:37 - 11:08:54","影片長度":"00:10:17","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-3"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":617,"end_time":"2024-03-06T11:08:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T10:58:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":537,"blocks":[["傅委員崐萁：（10時58分）人事長好。我們今天輕鬆一點好不好？人事總處大概是我們司法法制委員會比較輕鬆的一個單位，沒有劍拔弩張的氛圍。前兩天跟人事長一席溝通，心裡非常開心，不曉得人事長還是個花蓮通。秀林鄉的大同、大禮兩個部落無水無電，上山至少要5、6個小時，體力不好的要走7、8個小時，結果人事長去過四趟！我在這裡真的要代表花蓮來表揚一下人事長！那邊沒有光害，天上的星星幾乎可以用手把它摘下來，真的非常漂亮。既然花蓮很多祕境你都去過，我覺得人事長可以在公務人員國內旅遊的時候多推薦一下，花蓮有很多景點你都去過，你可以現身說法讓大家瞭解一下，因為現在團客不能去大陸、大陸團客不能來，所以我們現在國旅真的還是蠻辛苦的，我想人事長對於慰勞我們全國的公務人員、軍公教人員，可以給他們更多選擇的方向，可以嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我這裡答應委員，一定沒問題，事實上過去很多的環境教育、我們的一些主管訓練都會運用花蓮，前幾次也非常謝謝委員的夫人給我們很多的幫助。"],["傅委員崐萁：謝謝。我希望人事長可以帶著大家，有空多到美麗而且是人間淨土的花蓮來走走。","另外，本席看了人事長的相關資料，也算是民國38年以後臺灣第二代的菁英，所以我要特別跟人事長來討論分享一下，臺灣這75年來，不管是經濟奇蹟也好，前面60年的經濟奇蹟、亞洲的小龍、龍頭等等，都是臺灣第一代的菁英把它創造出來的。我記得我還在讀小學、中學，甚至讀高中，那個時候臺灣第一流的人才都願意到政府部門來工作，那時候大家叫「鐵飯碗」，最安全，也不會有任何挑戰，而且這些所謂書生型的人都很喜歡到國家的政府來工作，那個時候我記得女孩子要嫁，嫁公務員最好、最安全，那個時候還是4個剛剛好，生小孩要生4個，那個年代在軍公教的家庭裡是很有光榮感的，所以當一流的人才都進政府的時候，這個國家一定會很強大，而且能夠迅速發展。","所謂的年改，我們的中央政府竟然背棄信賴保護原則，這是聯合國的兩公約，最基本的信賴保護原則，造成這麼多人將一生的青春都付給國家，為人民做完事情，到了六十幾歲，現在沒有辦法過那種上流、中流的生活，甚至惶惶不可終日，而且物價又高漲。對於年改這個事情，請教人事長，你覺得正當性足不足？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：跟委員報告，事實上整個年改的過程有思考到世代公平的問題，因為也要考慮到年輕世代，他未來如果志在公部門服務，這些退撫基金以國家的財政以及它的投資報酬率等好幾個面向，是不是……所以政府做這樣一個決定，事實上也是有考慮到這個基金的永續，那個是不得不的一個做法，我想很多事情，大家都要有一種包容。"],["傅委員崐萁：我想人事長你很客氣，但是本席還是要強調，年改這個劣法我們一定會修啦！第一個，國家不能對人民失信，考慮到基金的問題，你可以在某年某月某日訂定以後用新制，你要來當公務員，你要想清楚，用新制來走；舊制的部分政府必須要維護這些人跟政府的契約，這是國家最基本的誠信，沒有國家的誠信就沒有其他社會的價值跟穩定，這個社會存在就是一個信任，國家之所以能夠領導，也就是人民的信任，所以當國家的信任崩潰的時候，沒有信賴基礎的時候，這個社會秩序會蕩然無存。這個部分未來我們在修法的時候，也請人事長、人事總處不要過多的抗拒。","另外，針對基金的部分，你們應該跟考試院去協商，為什麼有些基金做得很好，有些基金卻做得不行？但是政府基金的效能永遠跟民間的基金差很多，落差又很大，民間在賺錢，政府的基金在賠錢。當然，政府的基金如果一天到晚都是為了政治任務在護盤的話，它永遠是被犧牲的，而它被犧牲的原因，竟然是拿這些退休公務人員的退休準備金去做國家任務，這個是很荒唐的一件事情，非常荒唐的一件事情，政府操作不良，然後要歸責於你們，讓你們沒有辦法安養終老，這是完全風馬牛不相及。","另外，現在尤其在偏遠地區，要考慮整個社區安全、對大家生活能夠照應。針對消防人員能不能組工會、有沒有協商權的這個問題，我想在這個會期或是今年一定會提出相關的辦法，也請人事長針對本席今天提出質詢的部分能夠給我一些回應，用書面也可以，沒有關係。我先講一下，當然，歐美國家的消防員幾乎都有組工會，美國、加拿大、法國等等，五眼聯盟等等，但重點是，現在連韓國也有，它固然沒有罷工權，但是可以協商；日本不能組工會，但是它的協會有協商權，畢竟如果沒有辦法給消防員充足的休息時間，這個真的是讓我們整體公職人員的待遇有落差。我舉個例來講，我就看這個消防署資料，在全國這麼多縣市裡面大概都是勤一休一或勤二休二，但是我們消防署就蠻奇怪的，它是勤一休二，這個不能一國多制，為什麼消防署的人員可以勤一休二，其他是勤一休一？這是很不合理的事情，所以我們還是要一套制度跟辦法。","另外，對於這些現職公務人員的調薪，在去年6月1號行政院宣布調漲軍公教人員薪水4%，當然是隨著消費者物價指數累積成長，成長率達到正負百分之五應該予以調整，而且4年檢討一次。但是為什麼退休人員要拖到今年的2月29號？前後差了九個多月，這對退休人員情何以堪？他們已經被砍得這麼慘了，然後在討論的時候又要延宕，我覺得這個步調應該是一致的，而且必須要讓它法制化。人事總處這邊是不是請人事長考量？沒有關係，現在時間很有限，您願意回應也可以，書面給本席也可以，因為我們會長相左右，還會再見到。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們再提供書面資料給總召。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，謝謝。"],["主席：我們現在處理臨時提案。臨時提案第二案撤案就不予處理。現在請宣讀臨時提案。","一、","現行軍公教待遇分別有《軍人待遇條例》、《公務人員俸給法》、《教師待遇條例》等規定。然而，有關軍公教待遇之調整機制，迄今尚無法律或法律明確授權之具體規範。","2017年10月立法院法制局「軍公教薪資調整問題之研析」研究報告具體指出，依中央法規標準法第5條第2款規定，關於人民之權利、義務應以法律定之，建議軍公教員工調薪機制應有法律或法律明確授權之規定。","此外，2018年4月12日監察院調查報告亦提出下列調查意見，要求行政院確實檢討：我國公務人員待遇法制因受傳統「特別權力關係」理論之影響，而與法律保留原則未盡相符，有其歷史因素。立法院早自96年起，即多次決議要求行政院檢討各項獎金制度及待遇支給內容，並應儘速推動法制化。行政院人事行政總處原擬於公務人員基準法草案中，增定概括授權條款，然該法所涉範圍過廣，立法工程浩大，推動難度極高；嗣該總處表示擬將「待遇支給要點」提升至法律位階，制定軍公教待遇專法，迄今仍在初步規劃階段，相關法制化作業顯然拖延過久，有欠積極。","為健全軍公教員工待遇調整機制，建請行政院人事行政總處針對軍公教調薪機制法制化進行研擬，並將規劃結果於2個月內，送交司法及法制委員會。","提案人：黃國昌　　吳宗憲　　傅崐萁　　翁曉玲　　林思銘　　羅智強　　謝龍介","三、","因近年生成式人工智慧（AI）蓬勃發展，已知成為眾多產業發展與企業轉型關鍵之一。而當年政府各單位機關透過資源電腦化提升效能，近日更頻頻表示以新科技及生成式人工智慧（AI）輔助業務，打造以生成式人工智慧（AI）驅動的政府數位競爭力。","為了解因應業務狀況調整及時代改變，哪些政府業務可用生成式人工智慧（AI）增加單位效能，及同時檢討全國目前約聘僱人力分布及運用狀況，茲爰請人事行政總處：","一、評估「檢討全國目前約聘僱人力分布及運用狀況」並於三個月內提供書面報告。","二、評估「因應業務狀況調整及時代改變，部分業務運用生成式人工智慧（AI）提升效能」可行性，並於三個月內提供書面報告。","提案人：鍾佳濱　　莊瑞雄　　黃國昌"],["主席：好，謝謝。臨時提案第一案，請提案委員補充說明。"],["黃委員國昌：謝謝主席。我想軍公教薪資調整機制的法制化已經是長久以來應該要做而沒有做的事情，甚至在監察院裡面的調查報告都明確的指出來，本院法制局的同仁非常的優秀，也做了好幾個調查報告，也都明確的點出這項缺失，其實它所造成的問題層面還滿多的，因為臺灣已經進入民主法治的社會，如果公務員調薪這件事情還是上頭說了就算……我相信也不是人事長決定，是比你更高的人在決定到底要不要調、調多少，然後基層的公務員、教師也沒有代表在裡面。我相信臺灣作為法治國家，這種涉及到人民基本權利、重大給付行政的事情，還是要有法律授權的依據。我也利用提案的時間，特別感謝我們的召委吳宗憲，還有中國國民黨黨團的總召傅崐萁以及翁曉玲、林思銘、羅智強、謝龍介委員能夠對提案予以一定的支持，謝謝。"],["主席：好。請問機關有沒有意見要提出？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是不是可以建請同意將規劃結果由「2個月」改「3個月」？"],["黃委員國昌：不要啦！都拖這麼久了，你算一下時間，再3個月就休會了，你以為我很笨嗎？現在3月嘛！過3個月以後就是5月31日以後，當然我是希望今年要延會，但這個還是未定之天，這個如果是新的議題，我要你3個月交出來是強人所難，但這個是討論多久的議題了？我今天質詢的時候我還沒有講，之前的人事長2016年來這邊做業務報告的時候，他的業務報告書裡面就有這一條，我不會騙你，你回去翻。2個月夠了啦！真的！"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席、民眾黨黃國昌總召。一般我們書面提案都是3個月，我提案要求提出書面報告，我的第二案也是這樣。我是覺得評估起來，今年有國會改革這麼重大的案子，延會的可能性應該很高，看看黃總召是不是能考慮一下？如果3個月能夠提得更完整，不妨考慮一下啦！可以建議一下。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啦，鍾委員，我很尊敬你，所以你剛剛的提案我也來簽，雖然民進黨對外放話，說台灣民眾黨的提案你們都不簽，但你剛剛拿來，我還是簽了，因為我覺得提書面報告處理AI的問題這件事情有必要，我們向來就事論事，我也就事論事，第一個，雖然我認為延會的機會很高，但這是一個不確定的事情。第二個，我也講白的，延會的目的也不是為了在等他的報告啊！延會的目的是我們有更重要的事情要做。所以我是不是可以建請鍾委員尊重提案委員跟這麼多委員一起連署的內容，就請他們2個月把報告交出來？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟召委報告，「將規劃結果於2個月內提書面報告，送交司法及法制委員會」。"],["主席：好。不好意思，我剛剛沒有提到，其他共同提案人還有沒有問題要請……"],["傅委員崐萁：OK啦……"],["主席：2個月沒有問題的話，那就確定2個月內要提書面報告。這樣子的話，臨時提案第一案就照案通過。","因為第二案撤案了，所以現在處理第三案。","第三案請提案人補充說明。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝召委。剛剛第一案好像是修正後通過，因為有修正成書面報告嘛！","我的部分也要聲明，感謝民眾黨總召黃國昌委員跟莊瑞雄委員的支持，這個提案我沒有額外的說明，都在文字上了，請委員會支持，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們請機關回復。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：遵照辦理。"],["主席：好，本件就照案通過，謝謝。","現在先宣告一件事，待會在羅智強委員詢問完畢之後，休息5分鐘。","接下來請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":124,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","陳俊宇","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","林思銘","傅崐萁","鄭天財Sra 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00:00:17,063\n委員發言委員市長好我們今天輕鬆一點好不好今天人事總書這個是大概我們司法法制委員會比較輕鬆的一個單位沒有什麼那個劍拔弩張的那種氛圍\n\n2\n00:00:19,768 --> 00:00:40,461\n今天兩天我非常敬佩,時間可以開始走了。前兩天看到人事長跟你一起溝通,心裡非常開心。我不曉得人事長還是我們花蓮通。\n\n3\n00:00:42,849 --> 00:01:09,489\n在秀林鄉大同大理部落這兩個部落是無水無電所以要上山至少要五六個小時體力不好要走七八個小時結果人事長去過四趟我們在這裡真的要代表花蓮來表揚一下人事長因為沒有光害看到天上的星星幾乎手上可以把它摘下來真的是非常漂亮\n\n4\n00:01:12,212 --> 00:01:26,338\n花蓮很多的秘境你都去過我覺得人事長可以在公務人員在國民旅遊的時候可以多推薦一下花蓮有很多景點你都去過\n\n5\n00:01:27,987 --> 00:01:52,207\n可以把你的現身說法可以讓大家了解一下因為現在團客不能去大陸,大陸團客不能來所以我們現在國旅真的還是蠻辛苦的所以我想人事長對於未來我們全國的這些公務人員這些軍公教人員真的是我們可以給他們更多選擇的方向可以嗎?\n\n6\n00:01:53,456 --> 00:01:56,157\n我希望說人事長可以帶著大家好有空都要多到美麗而且人間淨土的花蓮多來走走\n\n7\n00:02:25,451 --> 00:02:49,600\n本集看了這個人事長的相關的資料也是算台灣第二代的民共38年以後第二代的我們的菁英所以我要特別跟人事長來討論分享一下台灣這75年來所有的這些不管是經濟奇蹟也好這前面的60年經濟奇蹟亞洲的小龍等等龍頭等等\n\n8\n00:02:51,840 --> 00:03:13,841\n都是台灣第一代的這些精英把它創造出來的而第一代的精英那個時候我記得我還是在讀小學中學的時候啊甚至讀高中的時候那個時候台灣第一流的人才啊第一流的人才都願意啊到政府部門來工作\n\n9\n00:03:15,034 --> 00:03:39,846\n那時候大家講叫鐵飯碗嘛最安全也不會有任何的挑戰而且這些所謂書生型的人都很喜歡到國家的政府來工作那個時候我記得大家要嫁那女孩子要嫁嫁公務員最好最安全那個時候還是4個剛剛好生小孩要生4個\n\n10\n00:03:41,963 --> 00:04:10,513\n那個年代在軍公教的家庭裡是很有光榮感的所以當一流的人才都進政府的時候這個國家一定會很強大而且能夠迅速的來發展所以對於這個所謂的年改讓這些人讓我們的中央政府竟然背棄信賴保護原則這是聯合國的兩公約這最基本的信賴保護原則\n\n11\n00:04:11,676 --> 00:04:39,046\n然後呢造成這麼多人啊這個當他的一生青春都付給國家以後啊為人民做完事情啊到了60幾歲啊現在啊這過得很這個叫沒有辦法過那種上流中流的生活甚至啊惶惶不可終日啊而且物價又高漲所以對年改這個事情這個人事長請教一下你覺得這個正當性足不足\n\n12\n00:04:40,866 --> 00:04:57,720\n我跟委員報告事實上整個年改一個過程他有思考到世代公平的問題因為也要考慮到年輕世代他未來如果是在公部門服務那這些貸付基金是不是以國家的財政他的投資報酬率\n\n13\n00:04:58,761 --> 00:04:59,121\n主席主席主席\n\n14\n00:05:27,729 --> 00:05:45,518\n國家不能對人民有私信你可以考慮到基金的問題可以在某年某月某日定定以後用心智你要來當公務員你要想清楚用心智來走救治的部分政府必須要維護這些人\n\n15\n00:05:47,413 --> 00:06:10,018\n政府的契約這最基本國家的誠信沒有國家的誠信沒有其他的這個社會的價值跟穩定這個社會存在就是一個信任國家之所以能夠領導也就是人民的信任所以當國家的信任崩潰的時候沒有信賴基礎的時候這個社會啊秩序會蕩然無存\n\n16\n00:06:11,823 --> 00:06:38,161\n這個部分我想人事長未來我們在修法的時候也請您人事總統不要過多的抗拒那另外就是基金的部分阿你們應該跟考試院去協商阿為什麼有些基金他做得很好有些基金他又做得不行但是永遠政府的基金阿他的效能跟民間的基金又差很多落差又很大民間在賺錢政府的基金在賠錢\n\n17\n00:06:39,799 --> 00:07:04,001\n當然政府的基金如果一天到晚都是政治任務在護盤的話永遠它屬於被犧牲的而它被犧牲的原因竟然是拿這些退休公務人員的退休準備金去做國家任務這個是很荒唐的一件事情非常荒唐的一件事情\n\n18\n00:07:04,901 --> 00:07:27,879\n政府操作不良然後要規則於讓你們沒有辦法安養中老這是完全逢馬牛不相及另外就是現在我們尤其在偏遠地區對於整個社區安全對大家生活能夠照應\n\n19\n00:07:29,841 --> 00:07:59,341\n在這個消防人員啊消防人員能不能組工會的這個問題有沒有協商權的這個問題我想在這個會期或是今年一定會提出相關的這些辦法也請啊這個人事長針對本期今天提出的這個質詢的部分能夠給我一些回應用書面也可以沒有關係我先講一下當然歐美國家的消防員都有組工會\n\n20\n00:08:02,337 --> 00:08:17,164\n美國、加拿大、法國、五眼聯盟等等但重點就是說現在連韓國也有他固然沒有罷工權但是可以協商日本不能組工會但是他的協會也有協商權\n\n21\n00:08:19,239 --> 00:08:20,160\n在全國這麼多縣市裡面\n\n22\n00:08:44,329 --> 00:08:44,629\n李卓人議員\n\n23\n00:09:09,198 --> 00:09:37,275\n對於限職的這些公務人員的調薪在去年在去年6月1號行政院宣布調漲這個軍公教人員薪水4%當然是隨著消費者物價指數累積成長成長率達到增幅5%應該予以調整而且4年監討一次但是為什麼退休人員要拖到今年的2月29號\n\n24\n00:09:38,499 --> 00:09:55,849\n前後差了9個多月這對退休人員情何以堪他們已經被砍得這麼慘了然後在討論的時候要延宕我覺得這個步調應該是一致的本身認為這應該是一致的而且必須要用它法制化\n\n25\n00:09:57,580 --> 00:10:12,447\n所以我想人事總處這邊是不是請這個人事長沒有關係現在時間很有限您願意回應也可以書面給本席也可以因為我們會長相左右我們再提供書面資料給總長好謝謝謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t17063\t委員發言委員市長好我們今天輕鬆一點好不好今天人事總書這個是大概我們司法法制委員會比較輕鬆的一個單位沒有什麼那個劍拔弩張的那種氛圍\n19768\t40461\t今天兩天我非常敬佩,時間可以開始走了。前兩天看到人事長跟你一起溝通,心裡非常開心。我不曉得人事長還是我們花蓮通。\n42849\t69489\t在秀林鄉大同大理部落這兩個部落是無水無電所以要上山至少要五六個小時體力不好要走七八個小時結果人事長去過四趟我們在這裡真的要代表花蓮來表揚一下人事長因為沒有光害看到天上的星星幾乎手上可以把它摘下來真的是非常漂亮\n72212\t86338\t花蓮很多的秘境你都去過我覺得人事長可以在公務人員在國民旅遊的時候可以多推薦一下花蓮有很多景點你都去過\n87987\t112207\t可以把你的現身說法可以讓大家了解一下因為現在團客不能去大陸,大陸團客不能來所以我們現在國旅真的還是蠻辛苦的所以我想人事長對於未來我們全國的這些公務人員這些軍公教人員真的是我們可以給他們更多選擇的方向可以嗎?\n113456\t116157\t我希望說人事長可以帶著大家好有空都要多到美麗而且人間淨土的花蓮多來走走\n145451\t169600\t本集看了這個人事長的相關的資料也是算台灣第二代的民共38年以後第二代的我們的菁英所以我要特別跟人事長來討論分享一下台灣這75年來所有的這些不管是經濟奇蹟也好這前面的60年經濟奇蹟亞洲的小龍等等龍頭等等\n171840\t193841\t都是台灣第一代的這些精英把它創造出來的而第一代的精英那個時候我記得我還是在讀小學中學的時候啊甚至讀高中的時候那個時候台灣第一流的人才啊第一流的人才都願意啊到政府部門來工作\n195034\t219846\t那時候大家講叫鐵飯碗嘛最安全也不會有任何的挑戰而且這些所謂書生型的人都很喜歡到國家的政府來工作那個時候我記得大家要嫁那女孩子要嫁 嫁公務員最好最安全那個時候還是4個剛剛好生小孩要生4個\n221963\t250513\t那個年代在軍公教的家庭裡是很有光榮感的所以當一流的人才都進政府的時候這個國家一定會很強大而且能夠迅速的來發展所以對於這個所謂的年改讓這些人讓我們的中央政府竟然背棄信賴保護原則這是聯合國的兩公約這最基本的信賴保護原則\n251676\t279046\t然後呢造成這麼多人啊這個當他的一生青春都付給國家以後啊為人民做完事情啊到了60幾歲啊現在啊這過得很這個叫沒有辦法過那種上流中流的生活甚至啊惶惶不可終日啊而且物價又高漲所以對年改這個事情這個人事長請教一下你覺得這個正當性足不足\n280866\t297720\t我跟委員報告事實上整個年改一個過程他有思考到世代公平的問題因為也要考慮到年輕世代他未來如果是在公部門服務那這些貸付基金是不是以國家的財政他的投資報酬率\n298761\t299121\t主席主席主席\n327729\t345518\t國家不能對人民有私信你可以考慮到基金的問題可以在某年某月某日定定以後用心智你要來當公務員你要想清楚用心智來走救治的部分政府必須要維護這些人\n347413\t370018\t政府的契約這最基本國家的誠信沒有國家的誠信沒有其他的這個社會的價值跟穩定這個社會存在就是一個信任國家之所以能夠領導也就是人民的信任所以當國家的信任崩潰的時候沒有信賴基礎的時候這個社會啊秩序會蕩然無存\n371823\t398161\t這個部分我想人事長未來我們在修法的時候也請您人事總統不要過多的抗拒那另外就是基金的部分阿你們應該跟考試院去協商阿為什麼有些基金他做得很好有些基金他又做得不行但是永遠政府的基金阿他的效能跟民間的基金又差很多落差又很大民間在賺錢政府的基金在賠錢\n399799\t424001\t當然政府的基金如果一天到晚都是政治任務在護盤的話永遠它屬於被犧牲的而它被犧牲的原因竟然是拿這些退休公務人員的退休準備金去做國家任務這個是很荒唐的一件事情非常荒唐的一件事情\n424901\t447879\t政府操作不良然後要規則於讓你們沒有辦法安養中老這是完全逢馬牛不相及另外就是現在我們尤其在偏遠地區對於整個社區安全對大家生活能夠照應\n449841\t479341\t在這個消防人員啊消防人員能不能組工會的這個問題有沒有協商權的這個問題我想在這個會期或是今年一定會提出相關的這些辦法也請啊這個人事長針對本期今天提出的這個質詢的部分能夠給我一些回應用書面也可以沒有關係我先講一下當然歐美國家的消防員都有組工會\n482337\t497164\t美國、加拿大、法國、五眼聯盟等等但重點就是說現在連韓國也有他固然沒有罷工權但是可以協商日本不能組工會但是他的協會也有協商權\n499239\t500160\t在全國這麼多縣市裡面\n524329\t524629\t李卓人議員\n549198\t577275\t對於限職的這些公務人員的調薪在去年在去年6月1號行政院宣布調漲這個軍公教人員薪水4%當然是隨著消費者物價指數累積成長成長率達到增幅5%應該予以調整而且4年監討一次但是為什麼退休人員要拖到今年的2月29號\n578499\t595849\t前後差了9個多月這對退休人員情何以堪他們已經被砍得這麼慘了然後在討論的時候要延宕我覺得這個步調應該是一致的本身認為這應該是一致的而且必須要用它法制化\n597580\t612447\t所以我想人事總處這邊是不是請這個人事長沒有關係 現在時間很有限您願意回應也可以書面給本席也可以因為我們會長相左右我們再提供書面資料給總長好 謝謝 謝謝\n","txt":"委員發言委員市長好我們今天輕鬆一點好不好今天人事總書這個是大概我們司法法制委員會比較輕鬆的一個單位沒有什麼那個劍拔弩張的那種氛圍\n今天兩天我非常敬佩,時間可以開始走了。前兩天看到人事長跟你一起溝通,心裡非常開心。我不曉得人事長還是我們花蓮通。\n在秀林鄉大同大理部落這兩個部落是無水無電所以要上山至少要五六個小時體力不好要走七八個小時結果人事長去過四趟我們在這裡真的要代表花蓮來表揚一下人事長因為沒有光害看到天上的星星幾乎手上可以把它摘下來真的是非常漂亮\n花蓮很多的秘境你都去過我覺得人事長可以在公務人員在國民旅遊的時候可以多推薦一下花蓮有很多景點你都去過\n可以把你的現身說法可以讓大家了解一下因為現在團客不能去大陸,大陸團客不能來所以我們現在國旅真的還是蠻辛苦的所以我想人事長對於未來我們全國的這些公務人員這些軍公教人員真的是我們可以給他們更多選擇的方向可以嗎?\n我希望說人事長可以帶著大家好有空都要多到美麗而且人間淨土的花蓮多來走走\n本集看了這個人事長的相關的資料也是算台灣第二代的民共38年以後第二代的我們的菁英所以我要特別跟人事長來討論分享一下台灣這75年來所有的這些不管是經濟奇蹟也好這前面的60年經濟奇蹟亞洲的小龍等等龍頭等等\n都是台灣第一代的這些精英把它創造出來的而第一代的精英那個時候我記得我還是在讀小學中學的時候啊甚至讀高中的時候那個時候台灣第一流的人才啊第一流的人才都願意啊到政府部門來工作\n那時候大家講叫鐵飯碗嘛最安全也不會有任何的挑戰而且這些所謂書生型的人都很喜歡到國家的政府來工作那個時候我記得大家要嫁那女孩子要嫁 嫁公務員最好最安全那個時候還是4個剛剛好生小孩要生4個\n那個年代在軍公教的家庭裡是很有光榮感的所以當一流的人才都進政府的時候這個國家一定會很強大而且能夠迅速的來發展所以對於這個所謂的年改讓這些人讓我們的中央政府竟然背棄信賴保護原則這是聯合國的兩公約這最基本的信賴保護原則\n然後呢造成這麼多人啊這個當他的一生青春都付給國家以後啊為人民做完事情啊到了60幾歲啊現在啊這過得很這個叫沒有辦法過那種上流中流的生活甚至啊惶惶不可終日啊而且物價又高漲所以對年改這個事情這個人事長請教一下你覺得這個正當性足不足\n我跟委員報告事實上整個年改一個過程他有思考到世代公平的問題因為也要考慮到年輕世代他未來如果是在公部門服務那這些貸付基金是不是以國家的財政他的投資報酬率\n主席主席主席\n國家不能對人民有私信你可以考慮到基金的問題可以在某年某月某日定定以後用心智你要來當公務員你要想清楚用心智來走救治的部分政府必須要維護這些人\n政府的契約這最基本國家的誠信沒有國家的誠信沒有其他的這個社會的價值跟穩定這個社會存在就是一個信任國家之所以能夠領導也就是人民的信任所以當國家的信任崩潰的時候沒有信賴基礎的時候這個社會啊秩序會蕩然無存\n這個部分我想人事長未來我們在修法的時候也請您人事總統不要過多的抗拒那另外就是基金的部分阿你們應該跟考試院去協商阿為什麼有些基金他做得很好有些基金他又做得不行但是永遠政府的基金阿他的效能跟民間的基金又差很多落差又很大民間在賺錢政府的基金在賠錢\n當然政府的基金如果一天到晚都是政治任務在護盤的話永遠它屬於被犧牲的而它被犧牲的原因竟然是拿這些退休公務人員的退休準備金去做國家任務這個是很荒唐的一件事情非常荒唐的一件事情\n政府操作不良然後要規則於讓你們沒有辦法安養中老這是完全逢馬牛不相及另外就是現在我們尤其在偏遠地區對於整個社區安全對大家生活能夠照應\n在這個消防人員啊消防人員能不能組工會的這個問題有沒有協商權的這個問題我想在這個會期或是今年一定會提出相關的這些辦法也請啊這個人事長針對本期今天提出的這個質詢的部分能夠給我一些回應用書面也可以沒有關係我先講一下當然歐美國家的消防員都有組工會\n美國、加拿大、法國、五眼聯盟等等但重點就是說現在連韓國也有他固然沒有罷工權但是可以協商日本不能組工會但是他的協會也有協商權\n在全國這麼多縣市裡面\n李卓人議員\n對於限職的這些公務人員的調薪在去年在去年6月1號行政院宣布調漲這個軍公教人員薪水4%當然是隨著消費者物價指數累積成長成長率達到增幅5%應該予以調整而且4年監討一次但是為什麼退休人員要拖到今年的2月29號\n前後差了9個多月這對退休人員情何以堪他們已經被砍得這麼慘了然後在討論的時候要延宕我覺得這個步調應該是一致的本身認為這應該是一致的而且必須要用它法制化\n所以我想人事總處這邊是不是請這個人事長沒有關係 現在時間很有限您願意回應也可以書面給本席也可以因為我們會長相左右我們再提供書面資料給總長好 謝謝 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:17.063\n委員發言委員市長好我們今天輕鬆一點好不好今天人事總書這個是大概我們司法法制委員會比較輕鬆的一個單位沒有什麼那個劍拔弩張的那種氛圍\n\n00:19.768 --> 00:40.461\n今天兩天我非常敬佩,時間可以開始走了。前兩天看到人事長跟你一起溝通,心裡非常開心。我不曉得人事長還是我們花蓮通。\n\n00:42.849 --> 01:09.489\n在秀林鄉大同大理部落這兩個部落是無水無電所以要上山至少要五六個小時體力不好要走七八個小時結果人事長去過四趟我們在這裡真的要代表花蓮來表揚一下人事長因為沒有光害看到天上的星星幾乎手上可以把它摘下來真的是非常漂亮\n\n01:12.212 --> 01:26.338\n花蓮很多的秘境你都去過我覺得人事長可以在公務人員在國民旅遊的時候可以多推薦一下花蓮有很多景點你都去過\n\n01:27.987 --> 01:52.207\n可以把你的現身說法可以讓大家了解一下因為現在團客不能去大陸,大陸團客不能來所以我們現在國旅真的還是蠻辛苦的所以我想人事長對於未來我們全國的這些公務人員這些軍公教人員真的是我們可以給他們更多選擇的方向可以嗎?\n\n01:53.456 --> 01:56.157\n我希望說人事長可以帶著大家好有空都要多到美麗而且人間淨土的花蓮多來走走\n\n02:25.451 --> 02:49.600\n本集看了這個人事長的相關的資料也是算台灣第二代的民共38年以後第二代的我們的菁英所以我要特別跟人事長來討論分享一下台灣這75年來所有的這些不管是經濟奇蹟也好這前面的60年經濟奇蹟亞洲的小龍等等龍頭等等\n\n02:51.840 --> 03:13.841\n都是台灣第一代的這些精英把它創造出來的而第一代的精英那個時候我記得我還是在讀小學中學的時候啊甚至讀高中的時候那個時候台灣第一流的人才啊第一流的人才都願意啊到政府部門來工作\n\n03:15.034 --> 03:39.846\n那時候大家講叫鐵飯碗嘛最安全也不會有任何的挑戰而且這些所謂書生型的人都很喜歡到國家的政府來工作那個時候我記得大家要嫁那女孩子要嫁嫁公務員最好最安全那個時候還是4個剛剛好生小孩要生4個\n\n03:41.963 --> 04:10.513\n那個年代在軍公教的家庭裡是很有光榮感的所以當一流的人才都進政府的時候這個國家一定會很強大而且能夠迅速的來發展所以對於這個所謂的年改讓這些人讓我們的中央政府竟然背棄信賴保護原則這是聯合國的兩公約這最基本的信賴保護原則\n\n04:11.676 --> 04:39.046\n然後呢造成這麼多人啊這個當他的一生青春都付給國家以後啊為人民做完事情啊到了60幾歲啊現在啊這過得很這個叫沒有辦法過那種上流中流的生活甚至啊惶惶不可終日啊而且物價又高漲所以對年改這個事情這個人事長請教一下你覺得這個正當性足不足\n\n04:40.866 --> 04:57.720\n我跟委員報告事實上整個年改一個過程他有思考到世代公平的問題因為也要考慮到年輕世代他未來如果是在公部門服務那這些貸付基金是不是以國家的財政他的投資報酬率\n\n04:58.761 --> 04:59.121\n主席主席主席\n\n05:27.729 --> 05:45.518\n國家不能對人民有私信你可以考慮到基金的問題可以在某年某月某日定定以後用心智你要來當公務員你要想清楚用心智來走救治的部分政府必須要維護這些人\n\n05:47.413 --> 06:10.018\n政府的契約這最基本國家的誠信沒有國家的誠信沒有其他的這個社會的價值跟穩定這個社會存在就是一個信任國家之所以能夠領導也就是人民的信任所以當國家的信任崩潰的時候沒有信賴基礎的時候這個社會啊秩序會蕩然無存\n\n06:11.823 --> 06:38.161\n這個部分我想人事長未來我們在修法的時候也請您人事總統不要過多的抗拒那另外就是基金的部分阿你們應該跟考試院去協商阿為什麼有些基金他做得很好有些基金他又做得不行但是永遠政府的基金阿他的效能跟民間的基金又差很多落差又很大民間在賺錢政府的基金在賠錢\n\n06:39.799 --> 07:04.001\n當然政府的基金如果一天到晚都是政治任務在護盤的話永遠它屬於被犧牲的而它被犧牲的原因竟然是拿這些退休公務人員的退休準備金去做國家任務這個是很荒唐的一件事情非常荒唐的一件事情\n\n07:04.901 --> 07:27.879\n政府操作不良然後要規則於讓你們沒有辦法安養中老這是完全逢馬牛不相及另外就是現在我們尤其在偏遠地區對於整個社區安全對大家生活能夠照應\n\n07:29.841 --> 07:59.341\n在這個消防人員啊消防人員能不能組工會的這個問題有沒有協商權的這個問題我想在這個會期或是今年一定會提出相關的這些辦法也請啊這個人事長針對本期今天提出的這個質詢的部分能夠給我一些回應用書面也可以沒有關係我先講一下當然歐美國家的消防員都有組工會\n\n08:02.337 --> 08:17.164\n美國、加拿大、法國、五眼聯盟等等但重點就是說現在連韓國也有他固然沒有罷工權但是可以協商日本不能組工會但是他的協會也有協商權\n\n08:19.239 --> 08:20.160\n在全國這麼多縣市裡面\n\n08:44.329 --> 08:44.629\n李卓人議員\n\n09:09.198 --> 09:37.275\n對於限職的這些公務人員的調薪在去年在去年6月1號行政院宣布調漲這個軍公教人員薪水4%當然是隨著消費者物價指數累積成長成長率達到增幅5%應該予以調整而且4年監討一次但是為什麼退休人員要拖到今年的2月29號\n\n09:38.499 --> 09:55.849\n前後差了9個多月這對退休人員情何以堪他們已經被砍得這麼慘了然後在討論的時候要延宕我覺得這個步調應該是一致的本身認為這應該是一致的而且必須要用它法制化\n\n09:57.580 --> 10:12.447\n所以我想人事總處這邊是不是請這個人事長沒有關係現在時間很有限您願意回應也可以書面給本席也可以因為我們會長相左右我們再提供書面資料給總長好謝謝謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":17.063,"text":"委員發言委員市長好我們今天輕鬆一點好不好今天人事總書這個是大概我們司法法制委員會比較輕鬆的一個單位沒有什麼那個劍拔弩張的那種氛圍"},{"start":19.768,"end":40.461,"text":"今天兩天我非常敬佩,時間可以開始走了。前兩天看到人事長跟你一起溝通,心裡非常開心。我不曉得人事長還是我們花蓮通。"},{"start":42.849,"end":69.489,"text":"在秀林鄉大同大理部落這兩個部落是無水無電所以要上山至少要五六個小時體力不好要走七八個小時結果人事長去過四趟我們在這裡真的要代表花蓮來表揚一下人事長因為沒有光害看到天上的星星幾乎手上可以把它摘下來真的是非常漂亮"},{"start":72.212,"end":86.338,"text":"花蓮很多的秘境你都去過我覺得人事長可以在公務人員在國民旅遊的時候可以多推薦一下花蓮有很多景點你都去過"},{"start":87.987,"end":112.207,"text":"可以把你的現身說法可以讓大家了解一下因為現在團客不能去大陸,大陸團客不能來所以我們現在國旅真的還是蠻辛苦的所以我想人事長對於未來我們全國的這些公務人員這些軍公教人員真的是我們可以給他們更多選擇的方向可以嗎?"},{"start":113.456,"end":116.157,"text":"我希望說人事長可以帶著大家好有空都要多到美麗而且人間淨土的花蓮多來走走"},{"start":145.451,"end":169.6,"text":"本集看了這個人事長的相關的資料也是算台灣第二代的民共38年以後第二代的我們的菁英所以我要特別跟人事長來討論分享一下台灣這75年來所有的這些不管是經濟奇蹟也好這前面的60年經濟奇蹟亞洲的小龍等等龍頭等等"},{"start":171.84,"end":193.841,"text":"都是台灣第一代的這些精英把它創造出來的而第一代的精英那個時候我記得我還是在讀小學中學的時候啊甚至讀高中的時候那個時候台灣第一流的人才啊第一流的人才都願意啊到政府部門來工作"},{"start":195.034,"end":219.846,"text":"那時候大家講叫鐵飯碗嘛最安全也不會有任何的挑戰而且這些所謂書生型的人都很喜歡到國家的政府來工作那個時候我記得大家要嫁那女孩子要嫁 嫁公務員最好最安全那個時候還是4個剛剛好生小孩要生4個"},{"start":221.963,"end":250.513,"text":"那個年代在軍公教的家庭裡是很有光榮感的所以當一流的人才都進政府的時候這個國家一定會很強大而且能夠迅速的來發展所以對於這個所謂的年改讓這些人讓我們的中央政府竟然背棄信賴保護原則這是聯合國的兩公約這最基本的信賴保護原則"},{"start":251.676,"end":279.046,"text":"然後呢造成這麼多人啊這個當他的一生青春都付給國家以後啊為人民做完事情啊到了60幾歲啊現在啊這過得很這個叫沒有辦法過那種上流中流的生活甚至啊惶惶不可終日啊而且物價又高漲所以對年改這個事情這個人事長請教一下你覺得這個正當性足不足"},{"start":280.866,"end":297.72,"text":"我跟委員報告事實上整個年改一個過程他有思考到世代公平的問題因為也要考慮到年輕世代他未來如果是在公部門服務那這些貸付基金是不是以國家的財政他的投資報酬率"},{"start":298.761,"end":299.121,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":327.729,"end":345.518,"text":"國家不能對人民有私信你可以考慮到基金的問題可以在某年某月某日定定以後用心智你要來當公務員你要想清楚用心智來走救治的部分政府必須要維護這些人"},{"start":347.413,"end":370.018,"text":"政府的契約這最基本國家的誠信沒有國家的誠信沒有其他的這個社會的價值跟穩定這個社會存在就是一個信任國家之所以能夠領導也就是人民的信任所以當國家的信任崩潰的時候沒有信賴基礎的時候這個社會啊秩序會蕩然無存"},{"start":371.823,"end":398.161,"text":"這個部分我想人事長未來我們在修法的時候也請您人事總統不要過多的抗拒那另外就是基金的部分阿你們應該跟考試院去協商阿為什麼有些基金他做得很好有些基金他又做得不行但是永遠政府的基金阿他的效能跟民間的基金又差很多落差又很大民間在賺錢政府的基金在賠錢"},{"start":399.799,"end":424.001,"text":"當然政府的基金如果一天到晚都是政治任務在護盤的話永遠它屬於被犧牲的而它被犧牲的原因竟然是拿這些退休公務人員的退休準備金去做國家任務這個是很荒唐的一件事情非常荒唐的一件事情"},{"start":424.901,"end":447.879,"text":"政府操作不良然後要規則於讓你們沒有辦法安養中老這是完全逢馬牛不相及另外就是現在我們尤其在偏遠地區對於整個社區安全對大家生活能夠照應"},{"start":449.841,"end":479.341,"text":"在這個消防人員啊消防人員能不能組工會的這個問題有沒有協商權的這個問題我想在這個會期或是今年一定會提出相關的這些辦法也請啊這個人事長針對本期今天提出的這個質詢的部分能夠給我一些回應用書面也可以沒有關係我先講一下當然歐美國家的消防員都有組工會"},{"start":482.337,"end":497.164,"text":"美國、加拿大、法國、五眼聯盟等等但重點就是說現在連韓國也有他固然沒有罷工權但是可以協商日本不能組工會但是他的協會也有協商權"},{"start":499.239,"end":500.16,"text":"在全國這麼多縣市裡面"},{"start":524.329,"end":524.629,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":549.198,"end":577.275,"text":"對於限職的這些公務人員的調薪在去年在去年6月1號行政院宣布調漲這個軍公教人員薪水4%當然是隨著消費者物價指數累積成長成長率達到增幅5%應該予以調整而且4年監討一次但是為什麼退休人員要拖到今年的2月29號"},{"start":578.499,"end":595.849,"text":"前後差了9個多月這對退休人員情何以堪他們已經被砍得這麼慘了然後在討論的時候要延宕我覺得這個步調應該是一致的本身認為這應該是一致的而且必須要用它法制化"},{"start":597.58,"end":612.447,"text":"所以我想人事總處這邊是不是請這個人事長沒有關係 現在時間很有限您願意回應也可以書面給本席也可以因為我們會長相左右我們再提供書面資料給總長好 謝謝 謝謝"}]}}}}