{"id":149369,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149369","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172ff374434ed208d9a91e2be856f0c9cef9f8ba9b0039caa7a6dcac665c54651f9f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:54:31 - 11:08:52","影片長度":"00:14:21","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-3"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":861,"end_time":"2024-03-06T11:08:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T10:54:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":787,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時54分）謝謝主席，我們有請許部長。"],["主席：有請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好！部長，你知不知道為什麼這一次勞動部要引進印度的移工引發社會這麼大的恐慌、焦慮跟反彈？你知道你真正原因在哪裡嗎？本席告訴你，因為你們在這一次的政策當中做了三不，第一個，不透明；第二個，不嚴謹；第三個，不溝通。第一個，我們現在談你不透明的部分，光就MOU的簽訂，本席找出來之前在討論這個議題的時候，你們只會一直說假訊息、假訊息，迴避了什麼時候要進印度移工這個議題。","在今年的2月15號，媒體報導說印度移工MOU簽署一延再延，然後你們說要找合適的時間、簽訂的方式，結果就只隔1天，隔天馬上發布一個訊息，表示臺灣跟印度用視訊的方式簽署了MOU。部長，你們到底在怕什麼？就是當外界在關注你的進度的時候，你們不敢對外明確說明，我不相信這麼重大的事項，外交部的人員請上臺，這麼重大的事項，我們要跟印度來簽MOU可以在2月15號對外說不太知道時間跟簽訂方式，隔一天立刻、馬上視訊簽署，這是不是刻意對外說謊？到底在怕什麼呢？剛剛我聽到所有的詢答，部長你理直氣壯，覺得我們引進印度移工非常的有道理，正當性非常的充足，那你們為什麼遮遮掩掩？為什麼迴避立法院的監督？為什麼是用這樣子突襲的方式，很快的，而且還用視訊來完成這樣的MOU，我們現在疫情早就解封了，視訊是因為疫情不得已。那這麼重大的事項，不能臺印雙方好好的面對面，還可以合拍一個很好看的照片嗎？為什麼是這麼的臨時？來，請說明。這是外交部該說的，還是勞動部該說的？"],["許部長銘春：我來說明，有關於簽署的部分，因為……"],["王委員育敏：你們什麼時候決定2月16號要簽署？什麼時候？"],["許部長銘春：委員……"],["王委員育敏：這個應該老早就要談定喔，你不要告訴我說2月15號下午臨時決定。"],["許部長銘春：確定的日期我可能要再瞭解一下。"],["王委員育敏：是1月嗎？還是2月？"],["許部長銘春：不是、不是。"],["王委員育敏：更早就決定了2月16號？"],["許部長銘春：沒有、沒有，沒有更早。"],["王委員育敏：你說啊，你記憶力怎麼這麼不好呢？"],["許部長銘春：沒有、沒有，我先跟委員說明，這個視訊的方式是印度方這邊建議的，那……"],["王委員育敏：什麼時候決定的啦？印方一定很早就告訴你了。"],["許部長銘春：日期我可能要再確認一下，因為……"],["王委員育敏：你為什麼不敢說明呢？在國會直接講！"],["許部長銘春：不是不敢說明，我是真的不記得。"],["王委員育敏：這麼重要的事情，你不記得？那你記得什麼事？"],["許部長銘春：沒有，委員，第二個就是說這個……"],["王委員育敏：部長，你迴避了我的問題！"],["許部長銘春：我沒有迴避你的問題，這個日期……"],["王委員育敏：你的確就迴避了，那請勞發署署長講，你也不知道嗎？什麼時候確定2月16號要簽署？"],["蔡署長孟良：因為這個聯繫、簽署的日期一直跟印度駐臺北協會在聯洽啦，後來因為是葉會長，因為針對這個問題他也提出了一些建議的時間點，確定之後，原則上我們就是做一些安排。"],["王委員育敏：哪一天確定的嘛？我在問啊。"],["蔡署長孟良：這個日期其實一直在進行當中啦，所以可能不是某一個很明確的……"],["王委員育敏：你們這樣的回答很不行喔！這個就是遮遮掩掩喔，我不曉得為什麼這件事情有什麼好不能公開、透明的。來，外交部回答，什麼時候決定？因為這是臺印雙方的事情，哪有這麼不明確的，2月15號還說不知道，2月16號就簽署，什麼時候跟印度敲定2月16號簽署備忘錄？"],["許副司長書智：報告委員，印度─台北協會事實上確實也定期跟我們外交部保持聯繫、溝通。"],["王委員育敏：好，什麼時候嘛？趕快講，我質詢時間有限！"],["許副司長書智：但是這個案子，因為這個時間也一直在……"],["許部長銘春：動態。"],["許副司長書智：動態在進行當中。"],["王委員育敏：最後確定2月16號是什麼時候？"],["許副司長書智：最後的話，這個至少是在我們選後啦，但確切的時間……"],["王委員育敏：所以1月份就確定了，對不對？那2月15號勞動部還在對外說謊！為什麼不敢講？"],["許副司長書智：就是我們……"],["許部長銘春：我記得不是選後，不是1月。"],["王委員育敏：你看你們兩邊根本都兜不攏！這很奇怪耶！"],["許部長銘春：我是說日期沒有……"],["王委員育敏：到底是1月還是2月？那部長你講！你否定外交部的說法，那你講！"],["許部長銘春：我記得不是1月啦，但是……"],["王委員育敏：那你記得什麼時候啊？你如果能否認，就代表你知道是哪一天啊，你幹嘛不敢講？趕快講！"],["許部長銘春：我知道不是1月，但是你問我確切哪一天，我真的要……"],["王委員育敏：你要回去查嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我要查，我真的要查。"],["王委員育敏：你要下午告訴本席嗎？"],["許部長銘春：下午？可以啊。"],["王委員育敏：好，你下午告訴本席。很明顯就是2月15號你們對外不敢公開講，然後2月16號就簽了MOU。"],["許部長銘春：因為……"],["王委員育敏：我覺得這件事情有正當性，為什麼不要坦然一點？你們越遮掩，國人就越擔心，所以我說你們第一個「不」就是不公開透明。"],["許部長銘春：這個沒有遮掩。因為視訊就是還沒有完成程序，照理說，我們應該是完成程序以後……其實是有規劃完成程序以後對外來說明，因為要換文才算正式程序完成。"],["王委員育敏：所以你們在急什麼？"],["許部長銘春：沒有急。本來跟印方說我們就先視訊，等視訊之後雙方換文完畢，我們就正式對外公開說明。可是那天視訊之後是印度那邊先說我們已經視訊了，所以我們就趕快對外說，並沒有遮掩。本來的想法是因為簽署還沒有完成，是各簽一邊而已。我們本來規劃就是完成以後，會對外說明。"],["王委員育敏：你什麼時候會完成？因為這樣跟你的報告就不符合，你的報告是說你們已經完成，你們對外新聞稿都是說已經完成MOU的簽署。"],["許部長銘春：2月16日是視訊簽署，還沒有完成。"],["王委員育敏：你什麼時候換文完成？"],["許部長銘春：換文完成是2月26日。我剛剛有報告，外交部2月26日給我們公文，說雙方已經換文了。"],["王委員育敏：另外，本席就要問你，你這麼急著簽這個 MOU，去年12月你們的新聞稿一直在說10萬是假訊息、會跟社會溝通。本席就要問你，從去年12月發了那個新聞稿之後，你跟社會做了什麼溝通？我剛剛聽到署長的回覆，我傻眼了！他說是用email給這些反對的團體，然後email之後，因為他們都沒有回覆，所以就這樣算了，這個叫溝通嗎？"],["許部長銘春：這個當然是針對……"],["王委員育敏：你有舉辦任何的公聽會或座談會跟社會大眾說明嗎？你告訴本席舉辦了幾場？從去年12月到2月16號簽了 MOU，總共開了幾場公聽會或座談會跟國人溝通？0場，對不對？我剛剛聽到你回覆其他委員就是0，一場都沒有，然後還用簡單的 email……"],["許部長銘春：座談會沒有，但是我跟這些公會或團體拜訪的時候，我有跟他們說明。"],["王委員育敏：你們列出來去年12月20號到2月16號……"],["許部長銘春：因為那時候……"],["王委員育敏：所以你們的溝通第一個是不透明，第二個就是沒有溝通。正式的溝通是什麼？委員會裡面要求各部會要做的正式溝通就是正式的座談會或者公聽會，而且要留下紀錄。目前為止，你們的回覆就是在臺印簽MOU之前，你們都沒有開。"],["許部長銘春：我們歷來增加來源國簽署MOU之前都是政府評估，因為新增來源國就是給雇主多一個選擇，所以過去沒有召開公聽會或座談會徵詢大家的意見，說我要新增印度好不好……"],["王委員育敏：你確定都沒有嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我記得以前沒有！"],["王委員育敏：你確定都沒有？你有沒有問過以前的勞委會主委陳菊？你確定都沒有嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我沒有問過他。"],["王委員育敏：你怎麼敢說都沒有？"],["許部長銘春：我是說這一件事情，至少我任內……"],["王委員育敏：你任內沒有開放其他……"],["許部長銘春：在衛環委員會，我想黃委員在這裡也可以見證，朝野各黨好多委員都建議我們要新增來源國。"],["王委員育敏：這個是兩件事！"],["許部長銘春：所以我們當時就想，包括……"],["王委員育敏：我現在在問你的是程序的問題，我說你第一個是不夠透明，簽 MOU遮遮掩掩；第二個是你不溝通，公聽會跟座談會也不開，新聞稿說你要溝通，結果也沒有溝通；第三個就是你的程序不嚴謹，剛剛很多委員在問你，到底經過了什麼樣的評估程序，結果你說你們內部開會，人家問你開會有沒有會議紀錄，你也拿不出來。可以這麼的隨意嗎？開放這麼大的國家──印度的移工要進來，結果你的程序是如此草率。這個就是本席今天要問你們的，不是贊成或反對的問題，而是你這一些做了沒有？這個部分我看起來就是沒有做、不夠嚴謹，所以應該要檢討。","另外，你一直說10萬的印度移工要進到臺灣來是一個假訊息，本席就問你，勞發署的專門委員對外說移工的缺口還有8萬，這是你們自己人講的，勞發署評估移工缺口有8萬，這8萬移工是不是要從印度進來？"],["許部長銘春：沒有。"],["王委員育敏：因為你們說現有來源國已經下降，所以才要備另外一個、開發新的來源國。我問你移工缺口8萬，你怎麼補足？你沒有要從印度進來，如果要從新的開發國進來，要從哪裡補足？"],["許部長銘春：現有需求啦！本來我們……"],["王委員育敏：對啊！你剛剛也有說我們有需求。"],["許部長銘春：因為疫情，移工人數真的有降下來。"],["王委員育敏：對啊！我們現在要補足。"],["許部長銘春：再來就是我們現在製造業的……"],["王委員育敏：不然你改變你的說法好了，我們現在移工缺口多少？你回答本席。這個是12月勞發署的專委對外新聞採訪時說的，說移工缺口有8萬。如果部長今天要改變，說我們已經補足了，現在移工缺口還有多少？"],["許部長銘春：我沒有說補足了。我是要跟委員說……"],["王委員育敏：多少嘛？不是8萬，是多少？你告訴本席，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：專委應該就是業務單位，他很清楚。我現在跟委員說……"],["王委員育敏：是，所以這應該是正確的啊！"],["許部長銘春：我的意思是這個缺口並不是要從印度來補足。"],["王委員育敏：要不然要從哪幾個國家補足？"],["許部長銘春：現有的四國就可以。"],["王委員育敏：何必再開放印度呢？"],["許部長銘春：這是多一個選擇。因為我們……"],["王委員育敏：你剛剛講得很急切，說這個一定要開發，譬如印尼可能會下降。"],["許部長銘春：印度的增加跟這個缺口……"],["王委員育敏：現在又告訴大家，從既有的來源國就可以補足，這樣就沒有開放的必要啦！這很矛盾。"],["許部長銘春：不是！我們是未雨綢繆，因為現在這四國……"],["王委員育敏：那就不用急，既然是未雨綢繆、沒那麼急切，你們簽 MOU，我看是很急的樣子。"],["許部長銘春：我們跟印度方這3年都在討論，中間經過疫情的……"],["王委員育敏：因為我時間很有限。我要告訴你的是，你要引進新的來源國，沒有人反對，但你今天最大的問題是什麼？就是我剛剛講的那三點，你不夠透明，也沒有好好溝通，然後程序也不夠完備，所以社會才會反彈，你現在跟社會的溝通、對話是完全不夠的，連你們同黨的委員都這樣講，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：通常都是雙方的MOU都談定了，才會對外說明有新的移工來源國。"],["王委員育敏：最後，我要問你這一些負面的衝擊跟影響，你剛剛一直在說移工的犯罪率低、換算比率等等，現實的問題就是犯罪件數在增加，因為失聯移工的人數也在增加，換算比例有點自欺欺人。這一些就是事實，發生一件就是一個個案，發生一件就是一個真實的數據，所以今天本席要提醒部長，面對問題才能解決問題，而不是在報告上面一直美化，說印度移工完全都沒有問題，這樣就不是社會對話。"],["許部長銘春：我沒有說……"],["王委員育敏：你沒有看到人民心中的擔憂跟恐懼，如果你轉換另外一個態度，多開座談會、公聽會好好跟民眾解釋，針對犯罪的部分會怎麼樣預防；針對這些逃逸移工要怎麼樣強化措施，給大家安全、安心的保證，這樣的社會溝通就是成功的，民眾會反過頭來支持你。因為現在缺工的問題的確是產業界的現象，而民眾的反對是他背後的疑慮跟擔憂。我勸勞動部換一個態度來處理這件事情，而不是用防衛的方式、否認的方式……"],["許部長銘春：不會。"],["王委員育敏：然後用美化的方式告訴大家，都不會有問題……"],["許部長銘春：我們沒有說都不會有問題。"],["王委員育敏：其他國家都很好，大家都不要擔心，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：我們只有說我們一定會注意這個問題。"],["王委員育敏：你要提出你們的解決跟改善之道，我覺得這樣才會讓大家安心，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝。我們會正向面對這個問題。"],["主席（王委員育敏）：接下來請盧縣一委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-3","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王正旭","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","盧縣一","楊曜","劉建國","林淑芬","謝衣鳯","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","吳思瑤","洪申翰","游顥","洪孟楷","蔡易餘","羅智強","陳瑩","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":125,"meetingDate":["2024-03-06"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度\n移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"149369","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149369","tool":"pyannote","id":"149369-pyannote"},"job_id":"Ay9CLXiKjkFYbvlV","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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\"報告委員這個印度台北協會他事實上確實也定期跟我們外交部保持這個聯繫溝通好什麼時候嘛趕快講我執行時間有限因為這個時間也一直像一直在動態在進行當中最後確定2月16號是什麼時候最後的話這個至少是在我們選後啦那確確實實所以1月份就確定了對不對那2月15號勞動部還在對外說謊為什麼不敢講\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 262.486, \"end\": 262.606, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 262.606, \"end\": 264.026, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"印\", \"start\": 264.026, \"end\": 264.226, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 264.226, \"end\": 264.406, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 264.406, \"end\": 264.606, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"北\", \"start\": 264.606, \"end\": 265.227, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"協\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 265.227, \"end\": 265.487, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 265.487, \"end\": 265.647, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 265.647, \"end\": 266.327, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, 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\"然後你的程序也不夠完備所以社會才會反彈你現在跟社會的溝通跟對話是完全不夠的連你們本黨的委員都這樣子講然後最後我要問你就是說這一些負面的衝擊跟影響剛剛一直在說這個移工的犯罪率低啊然後你換算那個比率等等現實的問題就是犯罪\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 744.079, \"end\": 744.199, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 744.199, \"end\": 744.259, \"score\": 0.44}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 744.259, \"end\": 744.379, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 744.379, \"end\": 744.519, \"score\": 0.735}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 744.519, \"end\": 744.819, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"序\", \"start\": 744.819, \"end\": 744.959, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 744.959, \"end\": 745.139, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 745.139, \"end\": 745.459, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 745.459, \"end\": 746.28, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"備\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 746.28, \"end\": 746.44, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 746.44, \"end\": 746.66, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"社\", 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{\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 758.643, \"end\": 758.883, \"score\": 0.783}, {\"word\": \"影\", \"start\": 758.883, \"end\": 760.064, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"響\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 760.064, \"end\": 760.204, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 760.204, \"end\": 760.344, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 760.344, \"end\": 761.564, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"移\", \"start\": 761.564, \"end\": 761.744, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 761.744, \"end\": 761.964, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 761.964, \"end\": 762.104, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"犯\", \"start\": 762.104, \"end\": 762.324, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"罪\", \"start\": 762.324, \"end\": 762.564, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"率\", \"start\": 762.564, \"end\": 762.844, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"低\", \"start\": 762.844, \"end\": 763.024, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 763.024, \"end\": 763.324, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 763.324, \"end\": 763.445, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 763.445, \"end\": 763.525, \"score\": 0.583}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 763.525, \"end\": 763.905, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"換\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 763.905, \"end\": 764.065, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 764.065, \"end\": 764.325, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 764.325, \"end\": 764.485, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"率\", \"start\": 764.485, \"end\": 764.685, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 764.685, \"end\": 764.725, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 764.725, \"end\": 764.845, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 764.845, \"end\": 764.865, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 764.865, \"end\": 764.885, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 764.885, \"end\": 764.985, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"犯\", \"start\": 764.985, \"end\": 765.005, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"罪\", \"start\": 765.005, \"end\": 765.025, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 768.846, \"end\": 794.3, \"text\": \"他的件數就是在增加因為失聯的移工的人數也在增加換算比例是有點自欺欺人這些就是事實發生一件就是一個個案發生一件就是一個真實的數據所以今天本席要提醒部長是說面對問題才能解決問題而不是在報告上面一直美化說印度移工完全都沒有問題你這樣就不是撐回對話\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 768.846, \"end\": 769.086, \"score\": 0.732}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 769.086, \"end\": 769.246, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 769.246, \"end\": 769.967, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 769.967, \"end\": 770.227, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 770.227, \"end\": 770.387, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 770.387, \"end\": 770.607, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"增\", \"start\": 770.607, \"end\": 770.887, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"加\", 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844.407, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"擔\"}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 844.407, \"end\": 844.427, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 845.047, \"end\": 845.067, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,089 --> 00:00:02,851\n好謝謝主席我們有請許部長有請許部長\n\n2\n00:00:10,117 --> 00:00:31,545\n王育敏好部長好部長你知不知道為什麼這一次勞動部要引進印度的移工引發社會這麼大的恐慌跟焦慮跟反彈你知道你真正原因在哪裡嗎本席告訴你因為你們在這一次的政策當中做了三步第一個不透明\n\n3\n00:00:32,245 --> 00:00:56,603\n第二不嚴謹第三不溝通第一個我們現在談不透明的部分光就MOU的簽訂本席早出來之前在討論這個議題的時候你們只會一直說假訊息假訊息迴避了什麼時候要進印度移工這個議題在今年的2月15號\n\n4\n00:00:59,805 --> 00:01:20,698\n這個媒體報導說印度移工MOU簽署一言再言然後你們說要找合適的時間簽訂的方式結果就只隔一天隔天馬上發布一個訊息臺灣跟印度用視訊的方式簽署了MOU\n\n5\n00:01:22,608 --> 00:01:50,067\n部長你們到底在怕什麼就是當外界在關注你的進度的時候你們不敢對外明確說明我不相信這麼重大的事項這個外交部的人員請上台這麼重大的事項我們要跟印度來簽MOU可以在2月15號對外說不太知道時間跟簽訂方式隔一天立刻馬上視訊簽署\n\n6\n00:01:52,308 --> 00:02:17,590\n這是不是刻意對外說謊到底在怕什麼呢剛剛我聽到所有的詢答部長您理直氣壯覺得我們引進這個印度移工非常有道理正當性非常的充足那你們為什麼遮遮掩掩為什麼迴避立法院的監督為什麼是用這樣子突襲的方式很快的而且還用視訊來完成這樣的MOU我們現在疫情早就解封了\n\n7\n00:02:18,991 --> 00:02:32,658\n視訊是因為疫情不得已那這麼重大的事項不能抬硬雙方好好的面對面還可以合拍一個很好看的照片嗎為什麼是這麼的臨時來請說明這是外交部該說的還是是勞動部該說的我來說明這個有關於簽署的部分因為你們什麼時候決定2月16號要簽署什麼時候\n\n8\n00:02:48,522 --> 00:03:09,498\n這個應該老早就要談定喔,你不要告訴我說2月15號下午的時間。是1月嗎?還是2月?更早就決定了2月16號?沒有更早。你說啊,你記憶力怎麼這麼不好呢?沒有沒有,我先跟委員說明,這個視訊的方式是印方這邊建議的。\n\n9\n00:03:11,247 --> 00:03:34,345\n他什麼時候決定的啦?印方一定很早就告訴你了日期我可能要再確認一下你為什麼不敢說明呢?在國會直接講我真的不記得那麼重要的事情你不記得,那你記得什麼事?沒有,那第二個就是說這個部長你迴避了我的問題沒有迴避你的問題,這個你的確就迴避了,那那個勞發署署長講,你也不知道嗎?\n\n10\n00:03:35,680 --> 00:04:01,462\n什麼時候確定2月16號簽署因為這個聯繫簽署日期一直跟印度駐台北協會在連洽那後來因為是業會長因為他也針對這個問題他也提出了一些建議的時間點那確定之後那原則上我們就是做一些安排哪一天確定的嘛我在問啊這個日期其實一直在進行當中所以可能不是某一個很明顯你們這樣回答很不行喔\n\n11\n00:04:03,123 --> 00:04:20,489\n這個就是遮遮掩掩我不曉得為什麼這件事情有什麼好不能公開透明的來外交部回答什麼時候決定因為這是台印雙方的事情哪有這麼不明確的2月15號還說不知道2月16號就簽署什麼時候跟印度敲定2月16號簽署備忘錄\n\n12\n00:04:22,486 --> 00:04:47,531\n報告委員這個印度台北協會他事實上確實也定期跟我們外交部保持這個聯繫溝通好什麼時候嘛趕快講我執行時間有限因為這個時間也一直像一直在動態在進行當中最後確定2月16號是什麼時候最後的話這個至少是在我們選後啦那確確實實所以1月份就確定了對不對那2月15號勞動部還在對外說謊為什麼不敢講\n\n13\n00:04:51,512 --> 00:05:19,844\n我記得不是選後不是1月到底是1月還是2月那部長你講你否定外交部的說法那你講那你記得什麼時候啊你如果能否認那你就代表你知道是哪一天啊你幹嘛不敢講啊趕快講我知道不是1月但是你說問我確定哪一天我真的要你要回去查嗎好那你要向我告訴本席嗎\n\n14\n00:05:21,181 --> 00:05:21,441\n報告委員這個齁報告委員\n\n15\n00:05:45,978 --> 00:06:00,605\n因為視訊就是還沒有完成程序啦照理說我們應該是完成程序以後其實是有規劃完成程序以後對外來說明就是因為換文才算正式那所以你們在急什麼沒有急啊我的意思是說報告委員本來\n\n16\n00:06:01,385 --> 00:06:27,561\n跟印方那邊是說我們就先視訊然後等視訊雙方換文完畢我們就正式對外有一個公開的說明可是因為那天視訊的時候就是印方那邊先從印度那邊先說啊我們已經視訊了啊所以我們就趕快對外說也沒有遮掩就是說因為本來的想法是說因為你簽署還沒有完成是各簽一邊而已啊我們本來的規劃我跟委員報告我們本來規劃就是完成以後我們會對外說明那你什麼時候會完成\n\n17\n00:06:29,025 --> 00:06:37,502\n那個因為這樣子跟你的報告就不符合喔你們報告是說你們已經完成你對外新聞稿都是已經完成的MOM的簽署喔\n\n18\n00:06:39,349 --> 00:07:06,532\n二月十六是視訊簽署是那你什麼時候換文完成換完成是二月二十六我剛剛有報告就是說外交部他二月二十六來給我們就是說公委說他們雙方換文了那另外一個本席就要問你你這麼急著簽的這個MOU在去年你們的新聞稿十二月的時候你們一直在說十萬是假訊息然後我們會跟社會溝通本席就要問你\n\n19\n00:07:07,253 --> 00:07:23,447\n你從去年12月發的那個新聞稿之後你跟社會做了什麼溝通我剛剛聽到署長的回覆我傻眼了齁他說這些反對的團體呢我是用email給他然後email之後因為他都沒有回覆所以就這樣算了這個叫溝通嗎你有舉辦任何的公聽會或座談會跟社會大眾說明嗎舉辦了幾場你告訴本席\n\n20\n00:07:32,715 --> 00:07:36,157\n從去年12月到你簽了MOU2月16號總共開了幾場的公聽會或座談會跟國人溝通?零場,對不對?我剛聽到你回覆其他委員就是零,一場都沒有,然後還用簡單的e-mail。你們列出來,去年12月20號到2月16號\n\n21\n00:08:01,733 --> 00:08:20,848\n所以嘛你們的溝通我第一個是不透明第二個就是沒有溝通正式的溝通是什麼正式的溝通在委員會裡面要求各部會要做的就是你正式的座談會或者是公聽會而且要留下記錄到目前為止你們的回覆在台印簽\n\n22\n00:08:21,929 --> 00:08:26,930\n你確定都沒有嗎?你確定都沒有?你有沒有問過陳菊那個勞委會主委?你確定都沒有嗎?我沒有問過他\n\n23\n00:08:52,114 --> 00:09:10,662\n對阿那你怎麼敢說都沒有但我覺得委員我是說這件事情齁我在至少我任內齁我在這裡我想黃委員也在這裡都可以見證就好多的我們朝野各黨的委員都建議我們要新增來源國\n\n24\n00:09:11,693 --> 00:09:16,135\n這個是兩件事啊,部長我現在在問你的是程序的問題我說你第一個是不夠透明簽MOU遮遮掩掩第二個是你不溝通公聽會跟座談會也不開新聞稿說你要溝通結果也沒有溝通第三個就是你的程序不嚴謹剛剛其實很多人在問你你到底經過了什麼樣的評估的程序結果你說你們內部開會人家問你開會有沒有會議紀錄也拿不出來\n\n25\n00:09:41,738 --> 00:09:48,200\n可以這麼的隨意嗎開放一個這麼大的國家印度移工要進來結果你的程序是如此的草率這個就是本席今天要問你們的不是說贊成或反對的問題而是你這一些做了沒有那這個部分我看起來就是沒有做嘛不夠嚴謹嘛所以這個應該要檢討嘛另外一個你一直說10萬的印度移工要進到台灣來是一個假訊息那本席就問你\n\n26\n00:10:09,406 --> 00:10:38,809\n你們自己的這一些相關的資料當中這個勞發署的專門委員對外說移工的缺口還有8萬那我就問部長這個是你們自己人講的你們勞發署評估移工缺口有8萬那這8萬是不是要從印度移工這邊進來因為你們說現有來源國已經下降阿所以你才要備另外一個開發新的來源國阿那我問你移工缺口8萬你怎麼補足\n\n27\n00:10:40,236 --> 00:11:04,639\n你沒有要從印度進來,那你要從新的開發國進來,那你要從哪裡補足?就現有需求啦!對啊!你剛剛也有說我們有需求啊!報告委員也是因為疫情嘛!疫情那個移工真的有人數有降來!我們現在要補足啊!好!不然你改變你的說法好了!我們現在移工缺口有多少?\n\n28\n00:11:05,279 --> 00:11:21,050\n你回答本席這個才12月你們勞發署的專委對外新聞採訪的時候說的說移工缺口有8萬那如果部長你今天要改變說欸我們已經補足了好現在移工缺口有多少我是要跟委員說那多少嗎不是8萬是多少你告訴我本席啊快點\n\n29\n00:11:22,011 --> 00:11:36,432\n這個我想我們的專委他應該就是業務單位他很清楚啦所以他這應該是正確的啊我的意思是說這個缺口並不是要從印度來補足要不然要從哪幾個國家補足現有的就可以啦現有的四國那何必再開放印度呢\n\n30\n00:11:37,393 --> 00:11:54,213\n這多一個選擇,報告委員,因為我們...你們剛剛講得很急切,說這個一定要開發,因為譬如說印度可能會下降,現在又告訴大家說從既有的來源國就可以補足,那這樣就沒有開放的必要啦,這很矛盾耶。報告委員,因為我們這個是一個好...\n\n31\n00:11:57,576 --> 00:12:07,925\n這個未雨綢繆啦,因為你現在這次的...那就不用急啊,既然是未雨綢繆,沒那麼急切不是,我們已經跟印度方,就是說這三年我們都在討論部長,我要告訴你,因為我時間很有限我要告訴你的是說,你要引進新的來源國,沒有人反對但你今天最大的問題是什麼?我剛剛講的那三點就是說你不夠透明,你也沒有好好的溝通\n\n32\n00:12:24,079 --> 00:12:45,025\n然後你的程序也不夠完備所以社會才會反彈你現在跟社會的溝通跟對話是完全不夠的連你們本黨的委員都這樣子講然後最後我要問你就是說這一些負面的衝擊跟影響剛剛一直在說這個移工的犯罪率低啊然後你換算那個比率等等現實的問題就是犯罪\n\n33\n00:12:48,846 --> 00:13:14,300\n他的件數就是在增加因為失聯的移工的人數也在增加換算比例是有點自欺欺人這些就是事實發生一件就是一個個案發生一件就是一個真實的數據所以今天本席要提醒部長是說面對問題才能解決問題而不是在報告上面一直美化說印度移工完全都沒有問題你這樣就不是撐回對話\n\n34\n00:13:16,161 --> 00:13:41,177\n沒有去看到人民心中的擔憂跟恐懼那如果你轉換另外一個態度你去多開座談會你開公聽會你好好的跟民眾解釋說針對犯罪的部分我們會怎麼樣預防針對逃逸的這些移工我們要怎麼樣強化我們的措施給大家一個安全安心的保證這樣的社會溝通就是成功的民眾就會反過頭來支持你\n\n35\n00:13:43,118 --> 00:14:04,427\n因為現在缺工的問題的確是產業界的一個現象而民眾的反對是他背後的疑慮跟擔憂所以我勸勞動部你們換一個態度來處理這件事情而不是用防衛的方式用否認的方式然後用美化的方式告訴大家說都不會有問題人家其他國家都很好大家都不要擔心\n\n36\n00:14:05,047 --> 00:14:05,067\n好,謝謝。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t2851\t好 謝謝主席 我們有請許部長有請許部長\n10117\t31545\t王育敏好 部長好部長你知不知道為什麼這一次勞動部要引進印度的移工引發社會這麼大的恐慌跟焦慮跟反彈你知道你真正原因在哪裡嗎本席告訴你因為你們在這一次的政策當中做了三步第一個不透明\n32245\t56603\t第二不嚴謹第三不溝通第一個我們現在談不透明的部分光就MOU的簽訂本席早出來之前在討論這個議題的時候你們只會一直說假訊息假訊息迴避了什麼時候要進印度移工這個議題在今年的2月15號\n59805\t80698\t這個媒體報導說印度移工MOU簽署一言再言然後你們說要找合適的時間簽訂的方式結果就只隔一天隔天馬上發布一個訊息臺灣跟印度用視訊的方式簽署了MOU\n82608\t110067\t部長 你們到底在怕什麼就是當外界在關注你的進度的時候你們不敢對外明確說明我不相信這麼重大的事項這個外交部的人員請上台這麼重大的事項我們要跟印度來簽MOU可以在2月15號對外說不太知道時間跟簽訂方式隔一天立刻馬上視訊簽署\n112308\t137590\t這是不是刻意對外說謊到底在怕什麼呢剛剛我聽到所有的詢答部長您理直氣壯覺得我們引進這個印度移工非常有道理正當性非常的充足那你們為什麼遮遮掩掩為什麼迴避立法院的監督為什麼是用這樣子突襲的方式很快的而且還用視訊來完成這樣的MOU我們現在疫情早就解封了\n138991\t152658\t視訊是因為疫情不得已那這麼重大的事項不能抬硬雙方好好的面對面還可以合拍一個很好看的照片嗎為什麼是這麼的臨時來請說明這是外交部該說的還是是勞動部該說的我來說明這個有關於簽署的部分因為你們什麼時候決定2月16號要簽署什麼時候\n168522\t189498\t這個應該老早就要談定喔,你不要告訴我說2月15號下午的時間。是1月嗎?還是2月?更早就決定了2月16號?沒有更早。你說啊,你記憶力怎麼這麼不好呢?沒有沒有,我先跟委員說明,這個視訊的方式是印方這邊建議的。\n191247\t214345\t他什麼時候決定的啦?印方一定很早就告訴你了日期我可能要再確認一下你為什麼不敢說明呢?在國會直接講我真的不記得那麼重要的事情你不記得,那你記得什麼事?沒有,那第二個就是說這個部長你迴避了我的問題沒有迴避你的問題,這個你的確就迴避了,那那個勞發署署長講,你也不知道嗎?\n215680\t241462\t什麼時候確定2月16號簽署因為這個聯繫簽署日期一直跟印度駐台北協會在連洽那後來因為是業會長因為他也針對這個問題他也提出了一些建議的時間點那確定之後那原則上我們就是做一些安排哪一天確定的嘛我在問啊這個日期其實一直在進行當中所以可能不是某一個很明顯你們這樣回答很不行喔\n243123\t260489\t這個就是遮遮掩掩我不曉得為什麼這件事情有什麼好不能公開透明的來外交部回答什麼時候決定因為這是台印雙方的事情哪有這麼不明確的2月15號還說不知道2月16號就簽署什麼時候跟印度敲定2月16號簽署備忘錄\n262486\t287531\t報告委員這個印度台北協會他事實上確實也定期跟我們外交部保持這個聯繫溝通好什麼時候嘛趕快講我執行時間有限因為這個時間也一直像一直在動態在進行當中最後確定2月16號是什麼時候最後的話這個至少是在我們選後啦那確確實實所以1月份就確定了對不對那2月15號勞動部還在對外說謊為什麼不敢講\n291512\t319844\t我記得不是選後不是1月到底是1月還是2月那部長你講你否定外交部的說法那你講那你記得什麼時候啊你如果能否認那你就代表你知道是哪一天啊你幹嘛不敢講啊趕快講我知道不是1月但是你說問我確定哪一天我真的要你要回去查嗎好那你要向我告訴本席嗎\n321181\t321441\t報告委員 這個齁 報告委員\n345978\t360605\t因為視訊就是還沒有完成程序啦照理說我們應該是完成程序以後其實是有規劃完成程序以後對外來說明就是因為換文才算正式那所以你們在急什麼沒有急啊我的意思是說報告委員本來\n361385\t387561\t跟印方那邊是說我們就先視訊然後等視訊雙方換文完畢我們就正式對外有一個公開的說明可是因為那天視訊的時候就是印方那邊先從印度那邊先說啊我們已經視訊了啊所以我們就趕快對外說也沒有遮掩就是說因為本來的想法是說因為你簽署還沒有完成是各簽一邊而已啊我們本來的規劃我跟委員報告我們本來規劃就是完成以後我們會對外說明那你什麼時候會完成\n389025\t397502\t那個 因為這樣子跟你的報告就不符合喔 你們報告是說你們已經完成 你對外新聞稿都是已經完成的MOM的簽署喔\n399349\t426532\t二月十六是視訊簽署是那你什麼時候換文完成換完成是二月二十六我剛剛有報告就是說外交部他二月二十六來給我們就是說公委說他們雙方換文了那另外一個本席就要問你你這麼急著簽的這個MOU在去年你們的新聞稿十二月的時候你們一直在說十萬是假訊息然後我們會跟社會溝通本席就要問你\n427253\t443447\t你從去年12月發的那個新聞稿之後你跟社會做了什麼溝通我剛剛聽到署長的回覆我傻眼了齁他說這些反對的團體呢我是用email給他然後email之後因為他都沒有回覆所以就這樣算了這個叫溝通嗎你有舉辦任何的公聽會或座談會跟社會大眾說明嗎舉辦了幾場你告訴本席\n452715\t456157\t從去年12月到你簽了MOU2月16號總共開了幾場的公聽會或座談會跟國人溝通?零場,對不對?我剛聽到你回覆其他委員就是零,一場都沒有,然後還用簡單的e-mail。你們列出來,去年12月20號到2月16號\n481733\t500848\t所以嘛你們的溝通我第一個是不透明第二個就是沒有溝通正式的溝通是什麼正式的溝通在委員會裡面要求各部會要做的就是你正式的座談會或者是公聽會而且要留下記錄到目前為止你們的回覆在台印簽\n501929\t506930\t你確定都沒有嗎?你確定都沒有?你有沒有問過陳菊那個勞委會主委?你確定都沒有嗎?我沒有問過他\n532114\t550662\t對阿那你怎麼敢說都沒有但我覺得委員我是說這件事情齁我在至少我任內齁我在這裡我想黃委員也在這裡都可以見證就好多的我們朝野各黨的委員都建議我們要新增來源國\n551693\t556135\t這個是兩件事啊,部長我現在在問你的是程序的問題我說你第一個是不夠透明簽MOU遮遮掩掩第二個是你不溝通公聽會跟座談會也不開新聞稿說你要溝通結果也沒有溝通第三個就是你的程序不嚴謹剛剛其實很多人在問你你到底經過了什麼樣的評估的程序結果你說你們內部開會人家問你開會有沒有會議紀錄也拿不出來\n581738\t588200\t可以這麼的隨意嗎開放一個這麼大的國家印度移工要進來結果你的程序是如此的草率這個就是本席今天要問你們的不是說贊成或反對的問題而是你這一些做了沒有那這個部分我看起來就是沒有做嘛不夠嚴謹嘛所以這個應該要檢討嘛另外一個你一直說10萬的印度移工要進到台灣來是一個假訊息那本席就問你\n609406\t638809\t你們自己的這一些相關的資料當中這個勞發署的專門委員對外說移工的缺口還有8萬那我就問部長這個是你們自己人講的你們勞發署評估移工缺口有8萬那這8萬是不是要從印度移工這邊進來因為你們說現有來源國已經下降阿所以你才要備另外一個開發新的來源國阿那我問你移工缺口8萬你怎麼補足\n640236\t664639\t你沒有要從印度進來,那你要從新的開發國進來,那你要從哪裡補足?就現有需求啦!對啊!你剛剛也有說我們有需求啊!報告委員也是因為疫情嘛!疫情那個移工真的有人數有降來!我們現在要補足啊!好!不然你改變你的說法好了!我們現在移工缺口有多少?\n665279\t681050\t你回答本席這個才12月你們勞發署的專委對外新聞採訪的時候說的說移工缺口有8萬那如果部長你今天要改變說欸我們已經補足了好現在移工缺口有多少我是要跟委員說那多少嗎不是8萬是多少你告訴我本席啊快點\n682011\t696432\t這個我想我們的專委他應該就是業務單位他很清楚啦所以他這應該是正確的啊我的意思是說這個缺口並不是要從印度來補足要不然要從哪幾個國家補足現有的就可以啦現有的四國那何必再開放印度呢\n697393\t714213\t這多一個選擇,報告委員,因為我們...你們剛剛講得很急切,說這個一定要開發,因為譬如說印度可能會下降,現在又告訴大家說從既有的來源國就可以補足,那這樣就沒有開放的必要啦,這很矛盾耶。報告委員,因為我們這個是一個好...\n717576\t727925\t這個未雨綢繆啦,因為你現在這次的...那就不用急啊,既然是未雨綢繆,沒那麼急切不是,我們已經跟印度方,就是說這三年我們都在討論部長,我要告訴你,因為我時間很有限我要告訴你的是說,你要引進新的來源國,沒有人反對但你今天最大的問題是什麼?我剛剛講的那三點就是說你不夠透明,你也沒有好好的溝通\n744079\t765025\t然後你的程序也不夠完備所以社會才會反彈你現在跟社會的溝通跟對話是完全不夠的連你們本黨的委員都這樣子講然後最後我要問你就是說這一些負面的衝擊跟影響剛剛一直在說這個移工的犯罪率低啊然後你換算那個比率等等現實的問題就是犯罪\n768846\t794300\t他的件數就是在增加因為失聯的移工的人數也在增加換算比例是有點自欺欺人這些就是事實發生一件就是一個個案發生一件就是一個真實的數據所以今天本席要提醒部長是說面對問題才能解決問題而不是在報告上面一直美化說印度移工完全都沒有問題你這樣就不是撐回對話\n796161\t821177\t沒有去看到人民心中的擔憂跟恐懼那如果你轉換另外一個態度你去多開座談會你開公聽會你好好的跟民眾解釋說針對犯罪的部分我們會怎麼樣預防針對逃逸的這些移工我們要怎麼樣強化我們的措施給大家一個安全安心的保證這樣的社會溝通就是成功的民眾就會反過頭來支持你\n823118\t844427\t因為現在缺工的問題的確是產業界的一個現象而民眾的反對是他背後的疑慮跟擔憂所以我勸勞動部你們換一個態度來處理這件事情而不是用防衛的方式用否認的方式然後用美化的方式告訴大家說都不會有問題人家其他國家都很好大家都不要擔心\n845047\t845067\t好,謝謝。\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請許部長有請許部長\n王育敏好 部長好部長你知不知道為什麼這一次勞動部要引進印度的移工引發社會這麼大的恐慌跟焦慮跟反彈你知道你真正原因在哪裡嗎本席告訴你因為你們在這一次的政策當中做了三步第一個不透明\n第二不嚴謹第三不溝通第一個我們現在談不透明的部分光就MOU的簽訂本席早出來之前在討論這個議題的時候你們只會一直說假訊息假訊息迴避了什麼時候要進印度移工這個議題在今年的2月15號\n這個媒體報導說印度移工MOU簽署一言再言然後你們說要找合適的時間簽訂的方式結果就只隔一天隔天馬上發布一個訊息臺灣跟印度用視訊的方式簽署了MOU\n部長 你們到底在怕什麼就是當外界在關注你的進度的時候你們不敢對外明確說明我不相信這麼重大的事項這個外交部的人員請上台這麼重大的事項我們要跟印度來簽MOU可以在2月15號對外說不太知道時間跟簽訂方式隔一天立刻馬上視訊簽署\n這是不是刻意對外說謊到底在怕什麼呢剛剛我聽到所有的詢答部長您理直氣壯覺得我們引進這個印度移工非常有道理正當性非常的充足那你們為什麼遮遮掩掩為什麼迴避立法院的監督為什麼是用這樣子突襲的方式很快的而且還用視訊來完成這樣的MOU我們現在疫情早就解封了\n視訊是因為疫情不得已那這麼重大的事項不能抬硬雙方好好的面對面還可以合拍一個很好看的照片嗎為什麼是這麼的臨時來請說明這是外交部該說的還是是勞動部該說的我來說明這個有關於簽署的部分因為你們什麼時候決定2月16號要簽署什麼時候\n這個應該老早就要談定喔,你不要告訴我說2月15號下午的時間。是1月嗎?還是2月?更早就決定了2月16號?沒有更早。你說啊,你記憶力怎麼這麼不好呢?沒有沒有,我先跟委員說明,這個視訊的方式是印方這邊建議的。\n他什麼時候決定的啦?印方一定很早就告訴你了日期我可能要再確認一下你為什麼不敢說明呢?在國會直接講我真的不記得那麼重要的事情你不記得,那你記得什麼事?沒有,那第二個就是說這個部長你迴避了我的問題沒有迴避你的問題,這個你的確就迴避了,那那個勞發署署長講,你也不知道嗎?\n什麼時候確定2月16號簽署因為這個聯繫簽署日期一直跟印度駐台北協會在連洽那後來因為是業會長因為他也針對這個問題他也提出了一些建議的時間點那確定之後那原則上我們就是做一些安排哪一天確定的嘛我在問啊這個日期其實一直在進行當中所以可能不是某一個很明顯你們這樣回答很不行喔\n這個就是遮遮掩掩我不曉得為什麼這件事情有什麼好不能公開透明的來外交部回答什麼時候決定因為這是台印雙方的事情哪有這麼不明確的2月15號還說不知道2月16號就簽署什麼時候跟印度敲定2月16號簽署備忘錄\n報告委員這個印度台北協會他事實上確實也定期跟我們外交部保持這個聯繫溝通好什麼時候嘛趕快講我執行時間有限因為這個時間也一直像一直在動態在進行當中最後確定2月16號是什麼時候最後的話這個至少是在我們選後啦那確確實實所以1月份就確定了對不對那2月15號勞動部還在對外說謊為什麼不敢講\n我記得不是選後不是1月到底是1月還是2月那部長你講你否定外交部的說法那你講那你記得什麼時候啊你如果能否認那你就代表你知道是哪一天啊你幹嘛不敢講啊趕快講我知道不是1月但是你說問我確定哪一天我真的要你要回去查嗎好那你要向我告訴本席嗎\n報告委員 這個齁 報告委員\n因為視訊就是還沒有完成程序啦照理說我們應該是完成程序以後其實是有規劃完成程序以後對外來說明就是因為換文才算正式那所以你們在急什麼沒有急啊我的意思是說報告委員本來\n跟印方那邊是說我們就先視訊然後等視訊雙方換文完畢我們就正式對外有一個公開的說明可是因為那天視訊的時候就是印方那邊先從印度那邊先說啊我們已經視訊了啊所以我們就趕快對外說也沒有遮掩就是說因為本來的想法是說因為你簽署還沒有完成是各簽一邊而已啊我們本來的規劃我跟委員報告我們本來規劃就是完成以後我們會對外說明那你什麼時候會完成\n那個 因為這樣子跟你的報告就不符合喔 你們報告是說你們已經完成 你對外新聞稿都是已經完成的MOM的簽署喔\n二月十六是視訊簽署是那你什麼時候換文完成換完成是二月二十六我剛剛有報告就是說外交部他二月二十六來給我們就是說公委說他們雙方換文了那另外一個本席就要問你你這麼急著簽的這個MOU在去年你們的新聞稿十二月的時候你們一直在說十萬是假訊息然後我們會跟社會溝通本席就要問你\n你從去年12月發的那個新聞稿之後你跟社會做了什麼溝通我剛剛聽到署長的回覆我傻眼了齁他說這些反對的團體呢我是用email給他然後email之後因為他都沒有回覆所以就這樣算了這個叫溝通嗎你有舉辦任何的公聽會或座談會跟社會大眾說明嗎舉辦了幾場你告訴本席\n從去年12月到你簽了MOU2月16號總共開了幾場的公聽會或座談會跟國人溝通?零場,對不對?我剛聽到你回覆其他委員就是零,一場都沒有,然後還用簡單的e-mail。你們列出來,去年12月20號到2月16號\n所以嘛你們的溝通我第一個是不透明第二個就是沒有溝通正式的溝通是什麼正式的溝通在委員會裡面要求各部會要做的就是你正式的座談會或者是公聽會而且要留下記錄到目前為止你們的回覆在台印簽\n你確定都沒有嗎?你確定都沒有?你有沒有問過陳菊那個勞委會主委?你確定都沒有嗎?我沒有問過他\n對阿那你怎麼敢說都沒有但我覺得委員我是說這件事情齁我在至少我任內齁我在這裡我想黃委員也在這裡都可以見證就好多的我們朝野各黨的委員都建議我們要新增來源國\n這個是兩件事啊,部長我現在在問你的是程序的問題我說你第一個是不夠透明簽MOU遮遮掩掩第二個是你不溝通公聽會跟座談會也不開新聞稿說你要溝通結果也沒有溝通第三個就是你的程序不嚴謹剛剛其實很多人在問你你到底經過了什麼樣的評估的程序結果你說你們內部開會人家問你開會有沒有會議紀錄也拿不出來\n可以這麼的隨意嗎開放一個這麼大的國家印度移工要進來結果你的程序是如此的草率這個就是本席今天要問你們的不是說贊成或反對的問題而是你這一些做了沒有那這個部分我看起來就是沒有做嘛不夠嚴謹嘛所以這個應該要檢討嘛另外一個你一直說10萬的印度移工要進到台灣來是一個假訊息那本席就問你\n你們自己的這一些相關的資料當中這個勞發署的專門委員對外說移工的缺口還有8萬那我就問部長這個是你們自己人講的你們勞發署評估移工缺口有8萬那這8萬是不是要從印度移工這邊進來因為你們說現有來源國已經下降阿所以你才要備另外一個開發新的來源國阿那我問你移工缺口8萬你怎麼補足\n你沒有要從印度進來,那你要從新的開發國進來,那你要從哪裡補足?就現有需求啦!對啊!你剛剛也有說我們有需求啊!報告委員也是因為疫情嘛!疫情那個移工真的有人數有降來!我們現在要補足啊!好!不然你改變你的說法好了!我們現在移工缺口有多少?\n你回答本席這個才12月你們勞發署的專委對外新聞採訪的時候說的說移工缺口有8萬那如果部長你今天要改變說欸我們已經補足了好現在移工缺口有多少我是要跟委員說那多少嗎不是8萬是多少你告訴我本席啊快點\n這個我想我們的專委他應該就是業務單位他很清楚啦所以他這應該是正確的啊我的意思是說這個缺口並不是要從印度來補足要不然要從哪幾個國家補足現有的就可以啦現有的四國那何必再開放印度呢\n這多一個選擇,報告委員,因為我們...你們剛剛講得很急切,說這個一定要開發,因為譬如說印度可能會下降,現在又告訴大家說從既有的來源國就可以補足,那這樣就沒有開放的必要啦,這很矛盾耶。報告委員,因為我們這個是一個好...\n這個未雨綢繆啦,因為你現在這次的...那就不用急啊,既然是未雨綢繆,沒那麼急切不是,我們已經跟印度方,就是說這三年我們都在討論部長,我要告訴你,因為我時間很有限我要告訴你的是說,你要引進新的來源國,沒有人反對但你今天最大的問題是什麼?我剛剛講的那三點就是說你不夠透明,你也沒有好好的溝通\n然後你的程序也不夠完備所以社會才會反彈你現在跟社會的溝通跟對話是完全不夠的連你們本黨的委員都這樣子講然後最後我要問你就是說這一些負面的衝擊跟影響剛剛一直在說這個移工的犯罪率低啊然後你換算那個比率等等現實的問題就是犯罪\n他的件數就是在增加因為失聯的移工的人數也在增加換算比例是有點自欺欺人這些就是事實發生一件就是一個個案發生一件就是一個真實的數據所以今天本席要提醒部長是說面對問題才能解決問題而不是在報告上面一直美化說印度移工完全都沒有問題你這樣就不是撐回對話\n沒有去看到人民心中的擔憂跟恐懼那如果你轉換另外一個態度你去多開座談會你開公聽會你好好的跟民眾解釋說針對犯罪的部分我們會怎麼樣預防針對逃逸的這些移工我們要怎麼樣強化我們的措施給大家一個安全安心的保證這樣的社會溝通就是成功的民眾就會反過頭來支持你\n因為現在缺工的問題的確是產業界的一個現象而民眾的反對是他背後的疑慮跟擔憂所以我勸勞動部你們換一個態度來處理這件事情而不是用防衛的方式用否認的方式然後用美化的方式告訴大家說都不會有問題人家其他國家都很好大家都不要擔心\n好,謝謝。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:02.851\n好謝謝主席我們有請許部長有請許部長\n\n00:10.117 --> 00:31.545\n王育敏好部長好部長你知不知道為什麼這一次勞動部要引進印度的移工引發社會這麼大的恐慌跟焦慮跟反彈你知道你真正原因在哪裡嗎本席告訴你因為你們在這一次的政策當中做了三步第一個不透明\n\n00:32.245 --> 00:56.603\n第二不嚴謹第三不溝通第一個我們現在談不透明的部分光就MOU的簽訂本席早出來之前在討論這個議題的時候你們只會一直說假訊息假訊息迴避了什麼時候要進印度移工這個議題在今年的2月15號\n\n00:59.805 --> 01:20.698\n這個媒體報導說印度移工MOU簽署一言再言然後你們說要找合適的時間簽訂的方式結果就只隔一天隔天馬上發布一個訊息臺灣跟印度用視訊的方式簽署了MOU\n\n01:22.608 --> 01:50.067\n部長你們到底在怕什麼就是當外界在關注你的進度的時候你們不敢對外明確說明我不相信這麼重大的事項這個外交部的人員請上台這麼重大的事項我們要跟印度來簽MOU可以在2月15號對外說不太知道時間跟簽訂方式隔一天立刻馬上視訊簽署\n\n01:52.308 --> 02:17.590\n這是不是刻意對外說謊到底在怕什麼呢剛剛我聽到所有的詢答部長您理直氣壯覺得我們引進這個印度移工非常有道理正當性非常的充足那你們為什麼遮遮掩掩為什麼迴避立法院的監督為什麼是用這樣子突襲的方式很快的而且還用視訊來完成這樣的MOU我們現在疫情早就解封了\n\n02:18.991 --> 02:32.658\n視訊是因為疫情不得已那這麼重大的事項不能抬硬雙方好好的面對面還可以合拍一個很好看的照片嗎為什麼是這麼的臨時來請說明這是外交部該說的還是是勞動部該說的我來說明這個有關於簽署的部分因為你們什麼時候決定2月16號要簽署什麼時候\n\n02:48.522 --> 03:09.498\n這個應該老早就要談定喔,你不要告訴我說2月15號下午的時間。是1月嗎?還是2月?更早就決定了2月16號?沒有更早。你說啊,你記憶力怎麼這麼不好呢?沒有沒有,我先跟委員說明,這個視訊的方式是印方這邊建議的。\n\n03:11.247 --> 03:34.345\n他什麼時候決定的啦?印方一定很早就告訴你了日期我可能要再確認一下你為什麼不敢說明呢?在國會直接講我真的不記得那麼重要的事情你不記得,那你記得什麼事?沒有,那第二個就是說這個部長你迴避了我的問題沒有迴避你的問題,這個你的確就迴避了,那那個勞發署署長講,你也不知道嗎?\n\n03:35.680 --> 04:01.462\n什麼時候確定2月16號簽署因為這個聯繫簽署日期一直跟印度駐台北協會在連洽那後來因為是業會長因為他也針對這個問題他也提出了一些建議的時間點那確定之後那原則上我們就是做一些安排哪一天確定的嘛我在問啊這個日期其實一直在進行當中所以可能不是某一個很明顯你們這樣回答很不行喔\n\n04:03.123 --> 04:20.489\n這個就是遮遮掩掩我不曉得為什麼這件事情有什麼好不能公開透明的來外交部回答什麼時候決定因為這是台印雙方的事情哪有這麼不明確的2月15號還說不知道2月16號就簽署什麼時候跟印度敲定2月16號簽署備忘錄\n\n04:22.486 --> 04:47.531\n報告委員這個印度台北協會他事實上確實也定期跟我們外交部保持這個聯繫溝通好什麼時候嘛趕快講我執行時間有限因為這個時間也一直像一直在動態在進行當中最後確定2月16號是什麼時候最後的話這個至少是在我們選後啦那確確實實所以1月份就確定了對不對那2月15號勞動部還在對外說謊為什麼不敢講\n\n04:51.512 --> 05:19.844\n我記得不是選後不是1月到底是1月還是2月那部長你講你否定外交部的說法那你講那你記得什麼時候啊你如果能否認那你就代表你知道是哪一天啊你幹嘛不敢講啊趕快講我知道不是1月但是你說問我確定哪一天我真的要你要回去查嗎好那你要向我告訴本席嗎\n\n05:21.181 --> 05:21.441\n報告委員這個齁報告委員\n\n05:45.978 --> 06:00.605\n因為視訊就是還沒有完成程序啦照理說我們應該是完成程序以後其實是有規劃完成程序以後對外來說明就是因為換文才算正式那所以你們在急什麼沒有急啊我的意思是說報告委員本來\n\n06:01.385 --> 06:27.561\n跟印方那邊是說我們就先視訊然後等視訊雙方換文完畢我們就正式對外有一個公開的說明可是因為那天視訊的時候就是印方那邊先從印度那邊先說啊我們已經視訊了啊所以我們就趕快對外說也沒有遮掩就是說因為本來的想法是說因為你簽署還沒有完成是各簽一邊而已啊我們本來的規劃我跟委員報告我們本來規劃就是完成以後我們會對外說明那你什麼時候會完成\n\n06:29.025 --> 06:37.502\n那個因為這樣子跟你的報告就不符合喔你們報告是說你們已經完成你對外新聞稿都是已經完成的MOM的簽署喔\n\n06:39.349 --> 07:06.532\n二月十六是視訊簽署是那你什麼時候換文完成換完成是二月二十六我剛剛有報告就是說外交部他二月二十六來給我們就是說公委說他們雙方換文了那另外一個本席就要問你你這麼急著簽的這個MOU在去年你們的新聞稿十二月的時候你們一直在說十萬是假訊息然後我們會跟社會溝通本席就要問你\n\n07:07.253 --> 07:23.447\n你從去年12月發的那個新聞稿之後你跟社會做了什麼溝通我剛剛聽到署長的回覆我傻眼了齁他說這些反對的團體呢我是用email給他然後email之後因為他都沒有回覆所以就這樣算了這個叫溝通嗎你有舉辦任何的公聽會或座談會跟社會大眾說明嗎舉辦了幾場你告訴本席\n\n07:32.715 --> 07:36.157\n從去年12月到你簽了MOU2月16號總共開了幾場的公聽會或座談會跟國人溝通?零場,對不對?我剛聽到你回覆其他委員就是零,一場都沒有,然後還用簡單的e-mail。你們列出來,去年12月20號到2月16號\n\n08:01.733 --> 08:20.848\n所以嘛你們的溝通我第一個是不透明第二個就是沒有溝通正式的溝通是什麼正式的溝通在委員會裡面要求各部會要做的就是你正式的座談會或者是公聽會而且要留下記錄到目前為止你們的回覆在台印簽\n\n08:21.929 --> 08:26.930\n你確定都沒有嗎?你確定都沒有?你有沒有問過陳菊那個勞委會主委?你確定都沒有嗎?我沒有問過他\n\n08:52.114 --> 09:10.662\n對阿那你怎麼敢說都沒有但我覺得委員我是說這件事情齁我在至少我任內齁我在這裡我想黃委員也在這裡都可以見證就好多的我們朝野各黨的委員都建議我們要新增來源國\n\n09:11.693 --> 09:16.135\n這個是兩件事啊,部長我現在在問你的是程序的問題我說你第一個是不夠透明簽MOU遮遮掩掩第二個是你不溝通公聽會跟座談會也不開新聞稿說你要溝通結果也沒有溝通第三個就是你的程序不嚴謹剛剛其實很多人在問你你到底經過了什麼樣的評估的程序結果你說你們內部開會人家問你開會有沒有會議紀錄也拿不出來\n\n09:41.738 --> 09:48.200\n可以這麼的隨意嗎開放一個這麼大的國家印度移工要進來結果你的程序是如此的草率這個就是本席今天要問你們的不是說贊成或反對的問題而是你這一些做了沒有那這個部分我看起來就是沒有做嘛不夠嚴謹嘛所以這個應該要檢討嘛另外一個你一直說10萬的印度移工要進到台灣來是一個假訊息那本席就問你\n\n10:09.406 --> 10:38.809\n你們自己的這一些相關的資料當中這個勞發署的專門委員對外說移工的缺口還有8萬那我就問部長這個是你們自己人講的你們勞發署評估移工缺口有8萬那這8萬是不是要從印度移工這邊進來因為你們說現有來源國已經下降阿所以你才要備另外一個開發新的來源國阿那我問你移工缺口8萬你怎麼補足\n\n10:40.236 --> 11:04.639\n你沒有要從印度進來,那你要從新的開發國進來,那你要從哪裡補足?就現有需求啦!對啊!你剛剛也有說我們有需求啊!報告委員也是因為疫情嘛!疫情那個移工真的有人數有降來!我們現在要補足啊!好!不然你改變你的說法好了!我們現在移工缺口有多少?\n\n11:05.279 --> 11:21.050\n你回答本席這個才12月你們勞發署的專委對外新聞採訪的時候說的說移工缺口有8萬那如果部長你今天要改變說欸我們已經補足了好現在移工缺口有多少我是要跟委員說那多少嗎不是8萬是多少你告訴我本席啊快點\n\n11:22.011 --> 11:36.432\n這個我想我們的專委他應該就是業務單位他很清楚啦所以他這應該是正確的啊我的意思是說這個缺口並不是要從印度來補足要不然要從哪幾個國家補足現有的就可以啦現有的四國那何必再開放印度呢\n\n11:37.393 --> 11:54.213\n這多一個選擇,報告委員,因為我們...你們剛剛講得很急切,說這個一定要開發,因為譬如說印度可能會下降,現在又告訴大家說從既有的來源國就可以補足,那這樣就沒有開放的必要啦,這很矛盾耶。報告委員,因為我們這個是一個好...\n\n11:57.576 --> 12:07.925\n這個未雨綢繆啦,因為你現在這次的...那就不用急啊,既然是未雨綢繆,沒那麼急切不是,我們已經跟印度方,就是說這三年我們都在討論部長,我要告訴你,因為我時間很有限我要告訴你的是說,你要引進新的來源國,沒有人反對但你今天最大的問題是什麼?我剛剛講的那三點就是說你不夠透明,你也沒有好好的溝通\n\n12:24.079 --> 12:45.025\n然後你的程序也不夠完備所以社會才會反彈你現在跟社會的溝通跟對話是完全不夠的連你們本黨的委員都這樣子講然後最後我要問你就是說這一些負面的衝擊跟影響剛剛一直在說這個移工的犯罪率低啊然後你換算那個比率等等現實的問題就是犯罪\n\n12:48.846 --> 13:14.300\n他的件數就是在增加因為失聯的移工的人數也在增加換算比例是有點自欺欺人這些就是事實發生一件就是一個個案發生一件就是一個真實的數據所以今天本席要提醒部長是說面對問題才能解決問題而不是在報告上面一直美化說印度移工完全都沒有問題你這樣就不是撐回對話\n\n13:16.161 --> 13:41.177\n沒有去看到人民心中的擔憂跟恐懼那如果你轉換另外一個態度你去多開座談會你開公聽會你好好的跟民眾解釋說針對犯罪的部分我們會怎麼樣預防針對逃逸的這些移工我們要怎麼樣強化我們的措施給大家一個安全安心的保證這樣的社會溝通就是成功的民眾就會反過頭來支持你\n\n13:43.118 --> 14:04.427\n因為現在缺工的問題的確是產業界的一個現象而民眾的反對是他背後的疑慮跟擔憂所以我勸勞動部你們換一個態度來處理這件事情而不是用防衛的方式用否認的方式然後用美化的方式告訴大家說都不會有問題人家其他國家都很好大家都不要擔心\n\n14:05.047 --> 14:05.067\n好,謝謝。\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":2.851,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請許部長有請許部長"},{"start":10.117,"end":31.545,"text":"王育敏好 部長好部長你知不知道為什麼這一次勞動部要引進印度的移工引發社會這麼大的恐慌跟焦慮跟反彈你知道你真正原因在哪裡嗎本席告訴你因為你們在這一次的政策當中做了三步第一個不透明"},{"start":32.245,"end":56.603,"text":"第二不嚴謹第三不溝通第一個我們現在談不透明的部分光就MOU的簽訂本席早出來之前在討論這個議題的時候你們只會一直說假訊息假訊息迴避了什麼時候要進印度移工這個議題在今年的2月15號"},{"start":59.805,"end":80.698,"text":"這個媒體報導說印度移工MOU簽署一言再言然後你們說要找合適的時間簽訂的方式結果就只隔一天隔天馬上發布一個訊息臺灣跟印度用視訊的方式簽署了MOU"},{"start":82.608,"end":110.067,"text":"部長 你們到底在怕什麼就是當外界在關注你的進度的時候你們不敢對外明確說明我不相信這麼重大的事項這個外交部的人員請上台這麼重大的事項我們要跟印度來簽MOU可以在2月15號對外說不太知道時間跟簽訂方式隔一天立刻馬上視訊簽署"},{"start":112.308,"end":137.59,"text":"這是不是刻意對外說謊到底在怕什麼呢剛剛我聽到所有的詢答部長您理直氣壯覺得我們引進這個印度移工非常有道理正當性非常的充足那你們為什麼遮遮掩掩為什麼迴避立法院的監督為什麼是用這樣子突襲的方式很快的而且還用視訊來完成這樣的MOU我們現在疫情早就解封了"},{"start":138.991,"end":152.658,"text":"視訊是因為疫情不得已那這麼重大的事項不能抬硬雙方好好的面對面還可以合拍一個很好看的照片嗎為什麼是這麼的臨時來請說明這是外交部該說的還是是勞動部該說的我來說明這個有關於簽署的部分因為你們什麼時候決定2月16號要簽署什麼時候"},{"start":168.522,"end":189.498,"text":"這個應該老早就要談定喔,你不要告訴我說2月15號下午的時間。是1月嗎?還是2月?更早就決定了2月16號?沒有更早。你說啊,你記憶力怎麼這麼不好呢?沒有沒有,我先跟委員說明,這個視訊的方式是印方這邊建議的。"},{"start":191.247,"end":214.345,"text":"他什麼時候決定的啦?印方一定很早就告訴你了日期我可能要再確認一下你為什麼不敢說明呢?在國會直接講我真的不記得那麼重要的事情你不記得,那你記得什麼事?沒有,那第二個就是說這個部長你迴避了我的問題沒有迴避你的問題,這個你的確就迴避了,那那個勞發署署長講,你也不知道嗎?"},{"start":215.68,"end":241.462,"text":"什麼時候確定2月16號簽署因為這個聯繫簽署日期一直跟印度駐台北協會在連洽那後來因為是業會長因為他也針對這個問題他也提出了一些建議的時間點那確定之後那原則上我們就是做一些安排哪一天確定的嘛我在問啊這個日期其實一直在進行當中所以可能不是某一個很明顯你們這樣回答很不行喔"},{"start":243.123,"end":260.489,"text":"這個就是遮遮掩掩我不曉得為什麼這件事情有什麼好不能公開透明的來外交部回答什麼時候決定因為這是台印雙方的事情哪有這麼不明確的2月15號還說不知道2月16號就簽署什麼時候跟印度敲定2月16號簽署備忘錄"},{"start":262.486,"end":287.531,"text":"報告委員這個印度台北協會他事實上確實也定期跟我們外交部保持這個聯繫溝通好什麼時候嘛趕快講我執行時間有限因為這個時間也一直像一直在動態在進行當中最後確定2月16號是什麼時候最後的話這個至少是在我們選後啦那確確實實所以1月份就確定了對不對那2月15號勞動部還在對外說謊為什麼不敢講"},{"start":291.512,"end":319.844,"text":"我記得不是選後不是1月到底是1月還是2月那部長你講你否定外交部的說法那你講那你記得什麼時候啊你如果能否認那你就代表你知道是哪一天啊你幹嘛不敢講啊趕快講我知道不是1月但是你說問我確定哪一天我真的要你要回去查嗎好那你要向我告訴本席嗎"},{"start":321.181,"end":321.441,"text":"報告委員 這個齁 報告委員"},{"start":345.978,"end":360.605,"text":"因為視訊就是還沒有完成程序啦照理說我們應該是完成程序以後其實是有規劃完成程序以後對外來說明就是因為換文才算正式那所以你們在急什麼沒有急啊我的意思是說報告委員本來"},{"start":361.385,"end":387.561,"text":"跟印方那邊是說我們就先視訊然後等視訊雙方換文完畢我們就正式對外有一個公開的說明可是因為那天視訊的時候就是印方那邊先從印度那邊先說啊我們已經視訊了啊所以我們就趕快對外說也沒有遮掩就是說因為本來的想法是說因為你簽署還沒有完成是各簽一邊而已啊我們本來的規劃我跟委員報告我們本來規劃就是完成以後我們會對外說明那你什麼時候會完成"},{"start":389.025,"end":397.502,"text":"那個 因為這樣子跟你的報告就不符合喔 你們報告是說你們已經完成 你對外新聞稿都是已經完成的MOM的簽署喔"},{"start":399.349,"end":426.532,"text":"二月十六是視訊簽署是那你什麼時候換文完成換完成是二月二十六我剛剛有報告就是說外交部他二月二十六來給我們就是說公委說他們雙方換文了那另外一個本席就要問你你這麼急著簽的這個MOU在去年你們的新聞稿十二月的時候你們一直在說十萬是假訊息然後我們會跟社會溝通本席就要問你"},{"start":427.253,"end":443.447,"text":"你從去年12月發的那個新聞稿之後你跟社會做了什麼溝通我剛剛聽到署長的回覆我傻眼了齁他說這些反對的團體呢我是用email給他然後email之後因為他都沒有回覆所以就這樣算了這個叫溝通嗎你有舉辦任何的公聽會或座談會跟社會大眾說明嗎舉辦了幾場你告訴本席"},{"start":452.715,"end":456.157,"text":"從去年12月到你簽了MOU2月16號總共開了幾場的公聽會或座談會跟國人溝通?零場,對不對?我剛聽到你回覆其他委員就是零,一場都沒有,然後還用簡單的e-mail。你們列出來,去年12月20號到2月16號"},{"start":481.733,"end":500.848,"text":"所以嘛你們的溝通我第一個是不透明第二個就是沒有溝通正式的溝通是什麼正式的溝通在委員會裡面要求各部會要做的就是你正式的座談會或者是公聽會而且要留下記錄到目前為止你們的回覆在台印簽"},{"start":501.929,"end":506.93,"text":"你確定都沒有嗎?你確定都沒有?你有沒有問過陳菊那個勞委會主委?你確定都沒有嗎?我沒有問過他"},{"start":532.114,"end":550.662,"text":"對阿那你怎麼敢說都沒有但我覺得委員我是說這件事情齁我在至少我任內齁我在這裡我想黃委員也在這裡都可以見證就好多的我們朝野各黨的委員都建議我們要新增來源國"},{"start":551.693,"end":556.135,"text":"這個是兩件事啊,部長我現在在問你的是程序的問題我說你第一個是不夠透明簽MOU遮遮掩掩第二個是你不溝通公聽會跟座談會也不開新聞稿說你要溝通結果也沒有溝通第三個就是你的程序不嚴謹剛剛其實很多人在問你你到底經過了什麼樣的評估的程序結果你說你們內部開會人家問你開會有沒有會議紀錄也拿不出來"},{"start":581.738,"end":588.2,"text":"可以這麼的隨意嗎開放一個這麼大的國家印度移工要進來結果你的程序是如此的草率這個就是本席今天要問你們的不是說贊成或反對的問題而是你這一些做了沒有那這個部分我看起來就是沒有做嘛不夠嚴謹嘛所以這個應該要檢討嘛另外一個你一直說10萬的印度移工要進到台灣來是一個假訊息那本席就問你"},{"start":609.406,"end":638.809,"text":"你們自己的這一些相關的資料當中這個勞發署的專門委員對外說移工的缺口還有8萬那我就問部長這個是你們自己人講的你們勞發署評估移工缺口有8萬那這8萬是不是要從印度移工這邊進來因為你們說現有來源國已經下降阿所以你才要備另外一個開發新的來源國阿那我問你移工缺口8萬你怎麼補足"},{"start":640.236,"end":664.639,"text":"你沒有要從印度進來,那你要從新的開發國進來,那你要從哪裡補足?就現有需求啦!對啊!你剛剛也有說我們有需求啊!報告委員也是因為疫情嘛!疫情那個移工真的有人數有降來!我們現在要補足啊!好!不然你改變你的說法好了!我們現在移工缺口有多少?"},{"start":665.279,"end":681.05,"text":"你回答本席這個才12月你們勞發署的專委對外新聞採訪的時候說的說移工缺口有8萬那如果部長你今天要改變說欸我們已經補足了好現在移工缺口有多少我是要跟委員說那多少嗎不是8萬是多少你告訴我本席啊快點"},{"start":682.011,"end":696.432,"text":"這個我想我們的專委他應該就是業務單位他很清楚啦所以他這應該是正確的啊我的意思是說這個缺口並不是要從印度來補足要不然要從哪幾個國家補足現有的就可以啦現有的四國那何必再開放印度呢"},{"start":697.393,"end":714.213,"text":"這多一個選擇,報告委員,因為我們...你們剛剛講得很急切,說這個一定要開發,因為譬如說印度可能會下降,現在又告訴大家說從既有的來源國就可以補足,那這樣就沒有開放的必要啦,這很矛盾耶。報告委員,因為我們這個是一個好..."},{"start":717.576,"end":727.925,"text":"這個未雨綢繆啦,因為你現在這次的...那就不用急啊,既然是未雨綢繆,沒那麼急切不是,我們已經跟印度方,就是說這三年我們都在討論部長,我要告訴你,因為我時間很有限我要告訴你的是說,你要引進新的來源國,沒有人反對但你今天最大的問題是什麼?我剛剛講的那三點就是說你不夠透明,你也沒有好好的溝通"},{"start":744.079,"end":765.025,"text":"然後你的程序也不夠完備所以社會才會反彈你現在跟社會的溝通跟對話是完全不夠的連你們本黨的委員都這樣子講然後最後我要問你就是說這一些負面的衝擊跟影響剛剛一直在說這個移工的犯罪率低啊然後你換算那個比率等等現實的問題就是犯罪"},{"start":768.846,"end":794.3,"text":"他的件數就是在增加因為失聯的移工的人數也在增加換算比例是有點自欺欺人這些就是事實發生一件就是一個個案發生一件就是一個真實的數據所以今天本席要提醒部長是說面對問題才能解決問題而不是在報告上面一直美化說印度移工完全都沒有問題你這樣就不是撐回對話"},{"start":796.161,"end":821.177,"text":"沒有去看到人民心中的擔憂跟恐懼那如果你轉換另外一個態度你去多開座談會你開公聽會你好好的跟民眾解釋說針對犯罪的部分我們會怎麼樣預防針對逃逸的這些移工我們要怎麼樣強化我們的措施給大家一個安全安心的保證這樣的社會溝通就是成功的民眾就會反過頭來支持你"},{"start":823.118,"end":844.427,"text":"因為現在缺工的問題的確是產業界的一個現象而民眾的反對是他背後的疑慮跟擔憂所以我勸勞動部你們換一個態度來處理這件事情而不是用防衛的方式用否認的方式然後用美化的方式告訴大家說都不會有問題人家其他國家都很好大家都不要擔心"},{"start":845.047,"end":845.067,"text":"好,謝謝。"}]}}}}