{"id":149376,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149376","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172feb23f6c968eb08f9b97b2be93641c974f8ba9b0039caa7a6c243b8408b1a723d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"09:52:01 - 10:03:27","影片長度":"00:11:26","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請大陸委員會主任委員及交通部次長、交通部觀光署署長就「赴陸旅遊團停招：決策過程與後續影響評估」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-3"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":686,"end_time":"2024-03-06T10:03:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T09:52:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":298,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（9時52分）謝謝主席。陸委會主委跟交通部次長，有請。"],["主席：有請主委，有請次長，謝謝。"],["邱主任委員太三：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委早安。先請教你一個問題，請問主委是否同意兩岸的交流應該要維持對等、互利、尊重，兩岸在談判跟協商的過程中要避免我方讓利，更不能熱臉貼冷屁股，這樣的敘述，你同意嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上平等互惠應該是一個最基本的原則，大家都朝這個目標在追求。"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛！因為我剛剛聽你回答蘇巧慧委員質詢的時候你也講對等是很重要的，這一點本席完全同意，合先敘明。第二個問題我想請教一下交通部的次長，去年7月1號開始研議恢復兩岸的觀光旅遊，那8月24號是做了對外的公布，依對等的原則，對不對？也有講對等原則處理兩岸團體旅遊事務，在你的報告裡也寫有1個月的準備期嘛！這個有沒有錯？我跟你先做一下確認。"],["林次長國顯：是的，有、有，沒有問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，再換回主委，謝謝。","主委，我們今天要談這件事情是這樣，因為這個案子一度本來覺得蠻順利的，也可以給旅行業多一點空間，但後來突然峰迴路轉，決策中間的反覆其實造成旅行業很大的傷害，所以我覺得我們今天在內政委員會當然要提出質詢去瞭解過程，那更重要的是檢討本案的一些疏失，有沒有對等，我想這是非常重要的一個題目喔！我先請問一下，過去陸委會跟對岸溝通的管道有哪些？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上是這樣，大概兩岸過去這三十幾年來，不只是有很多個案，也簽了大概26項的協議。"],["牛委員煦庭：協議，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：這個協議涵蓋了觀光旅遊等等什麼都有，這裡面的協議就建立了一個所謂相互溝通的機制，這機制大概分三個面向：第一個，平時資訊上的提供；第二個，發生個案上的處理；第三個，政策性的探討，譬如說到底要不要再多開放哪些東西。"],["牛委員煦庭：OK。這個其實跟你剛剛回答的一樣，陸委會網站其實有講，溝通不外乎三個管道，一個政府單位，一個你剛剛講的兩岸協議，然後另外一個是民間人士，對不對？這樣講應該沒有錯，對不對？這陸委會講的。"],["邱主任委員太三：另外，因為我們就觀光的部分，在北京有所謂的台旅會，臺灣旅行的這個……"],["牛委員煦庭：這應該也算是……"],["邱主任委員太三：大陸在我們這邊有海旅會，在經濟的部分也有另一個單位……"],["牛委員煦庭：好，沒關係，我要問的……"],["邱主任委員太三：雙方都有各派……"],["牛委員煦庭：有管道嘛！對不對？所以8月24號之前，就在你們宣布要開始春暖花開之前，請問有沒有做具體的溝通？有沒有具體的成果？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上都有透過所謂雙方的窗口做了表達。"],["牛委員煦庭：什麼樣的窗口？是你從陸委會溝通嗎？還是從其他單位溝通？"],["邱主任委員太三：不是，不是，就是我剛剛提到的，所有協議都有它所謂的窗口。"],["牛委員煦庭：是不是從陸委會的管道啦？"],["邱主任委員太三：我們當然會……當然大家都知道，當政策討論完了之後，就會有所謂業務執行單位啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：不是，我沒有問你業務執行單位，我問說你在溝通這一題的時候，就是兩岸觀光的時候。"],["邱主任委員太三：對啊！就是業務執行單位會去做這樣的表達。"],["牛委員煦庭：它是哪一個單位？哪一條管道？透露一下吧！"],["邱主任委員太三：我剛剛不是有提到嗎？雙方都有幾個管道，包括台旅會，包括交通部……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以是透過台旅會這個管道，還是透過海基會呢？"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有，不只是啦……"],["牛委員煦庭：還是透過哪一個管道？"],["邱主任委員太三：您提到了，其實有很多的管道嘛！只是協議有協議的管道。"],["牛委員煦庭：那陸委會有沒有掌握這些管道溝通的進度跟成果？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上他們都會……"],["牛委員煦庭：應該你要掌握嘛！對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上他們都會跟我們回報對岸的態度。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為你等於是整個兩岸關係的主管機關嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：他們會回報對岸的態度。"],["牛委員煦庭：他們會回報……"],["邱主任委員太三：包括我們的委員也很熱心，我們也有委員，他們也會去……"],["牛委員煦庭：大家也會監督或什麼……"],["邱主任委員太三：對，對，對。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，所以有管道然後你有掌握嘛！我從你剛剛答詢裡面整理出來的答案是這樣，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們簡單一點就好，因為大家時間有限，好不好？"],["邱主任委員太三：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：根據交通部的報告，因為你8月24號宣布，有1個月的準備期間，為什麼要講1個月的準備期間？其實就是要看這中間中國大陸對我們有沒有善意的回應嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：這是其中之一。"],["牛委員煦庭：這是其中的理由，差不多就1個月，9月24號的時候有具體的回應嗎？也就是從他們的各種管道，你剛剛講的，因為你有掌握嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：各種管道裡面是有得到說他們也會對等開放嗎？有得到這樣的回復嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上他們是認為現在這個時間點不願意談這個問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你其實得到的是不宜，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：不是，不願在這個時間點上面，我想主要應該是涉及他們內部的整體政治情勢評估啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：好，那現在問題……"],["邱主任委員太三：我們的揣測啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：那問題就來了嘛！剛剛我們講兩岸的談判跟協商不能單方面讓利。"],["邱主任委員太三：對啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：尤其是不能我們讓利，因為要對等尊重嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：那9月的時候，其實你就已經掌握對方沒有打算要開，那為什麼不再早一點就這個政策我們就喊停呢？"],["邱主任委員太三：不是，他有沒有打算我不曉得，但是他現在沒有要談這個議題啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：他說沒有要談這個議題？"],["邱主任委員太三：對，那為什麼……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以狀況是不明就對了？"],["邱主任委員太三：是因為雙方有政治的情勢在變動嘛！"],["牛委員煦庭：政治的情勢！"],["邱主任委員太三：我們有選舉嘛！他們有他們內部的問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，所以其實9月24號沒有明確的回復，我這樣修正可以，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：對，對。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有明確的回復，好，你就繼續，但是10月25的時候，國台辦的朱鳳蓮開了記者會，因為我們的交通部長王國材說按照評估，今年大概是沒有望了，大陸團客是不會來了，要看明年的機會，那國台辦直接就嗆了，說有僵局，僵局就是因為民進黨執政，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個當然對我們來講是很不禮貌嘛！但是客觀上來說，他其實釋出了一個訊號，什麼樣的訊號？就是不愉快嘛！你剛剛講從8月到9月的時候是不明確，可是10月25我覺得這是不友善喔！人家已經有點欺負我們了，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：對啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：民進黨喜歡講說對方是欺負我們，在10月25號就已經釋出很明確的訊息說他對這件事情是很不滿意的，負面的訊息出來的時候，為什麼那個時候我們沒有喊停呢？他們確定不來了，那我們當然要緩議，對不對？為什麼沒有呢？是不是請主委說明一下。"],["邱主任委員太三：我講基本上他們說這樣的用語，其實政治上的解讀就很簡單嘛！"],["牛委員煦庭：就是不友善嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：不是不友善而已。"],["牛委員煦庭：不是不友善喔？人家就說你們是障礙……"],["邱主任委員太三：不是只有不友善。"],["牛委員煦庭：說你們是談判的障礙。"],["邱主任委員太三：而是說……"],["牛委員煦庭：非常不友善……"],["邱主任委員太三：我們都很清楚臺灣正在進行什麼……"],["牛委員煦庭：你不要問我，你就直接講。"],["邱主任委員太三：總統大選。"],["牛委員煦庭：趕快啦！時間有限啦！"],["邱主任委員太三：對啊！就是在進行總統大選。"],["牛委員煦庭：總統大選，所以呢？"],["邱主任委員太三：所以老共他在操作。"],["牛委員煦庭：操作什麼？好，那問題來了嘛！考驗的是不是民進黨回應這件事的態度？"],["邱主任委員太三：他不是以公開的方式對外說，期待跟他們所謂相同政治立場的人能夠當選嗎？不是這樣表示嗎？"],["牛委員煦庭：不是，問題是他跟你講民進黨是談判僵局的障礙的時候，在執行政策的角度……"],["邱主任委員太三：對，為什麼？就是因為大家的政治立場還要溝通嘛！"],["牛委員煦庭：執行政策角度的時候，按照民進黨的……你當然應該基於對等嘛！你那個時候是不是政策就要喊停？"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有，沒有。"],["牛委員煦庭：為什麼沒有？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上……"],["牛委員煦庭：人家說你是障礙，人家也說他不會來……"],["邱主任委員太三：我們認為商業上的對等是可以撇開政治的，只是他自己一直要把政治掛在前面嘛！"],["牛委員煦庭：這個時候又說要撇開政治，我覺得蠻奇怪的啦！"],["邱主任委員太三：我們期待他自己能夠看到兩岸經貿是有利於兩岸人民，跟政治沒有關係，我們希望跟政治撇開。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委，你剛剛講很多啦！你剛剛講到選舉，我也是蠻可以理解的，還有11月3號交通部在答詢的時候，那時候回答游毓蘭前委員質詢時說「即便有不好的訊息，我們還是3月要開放，因為我們要考慮旅行業的生計。」主委，我今天要把這個東西的來龍去脈做一個還原，就是因為我們很擔心，你當初開宗明義就講這個東西不能單方面讓利，我們不能熱臉貼冷屁股，可是講到現在，這個溝通管道不清楚、談判過程不對等、政策又不連貫，我覺得這個是要檢討的。"],["邱主任委員太三：委員剛剛提到的溝通管道沒有所謂不清楚啊！剛剛不是講了有那麼多的溝通管道。"],["牛委員煦庭：我剛剛問你哪一條管道，你就說我們有很多管道，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：只是在於溝通的結果，他們態度不清楚。"],["牛委員煦庭：重點是不對等嘛！人家很早就講他不來了，很早就講他不來的時候……"],["邱主任委員太三：那這樣的話……"],["牛委員煦庭：我們還開放是不是就變成逆差？那我們是不是就熱臉貼冷屁股？這是不對的嘛！我們就是希望對等，9月、10月有不好的訊息的時候，你那個時候喊停，是不是不會衝擊旅行業，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：9月、10月應該不是要不好，而是說不明的訊息，狀況不明，這個要……"],["牛委員煦庭：10月25就講你們是僵局，他講不會來了，對不對？那就是一個負面的訊息嘛！你如果講9月不明，我接受，10月是負面嘛！就表示狀況不好，你這個政策為什麼不那個時候喊停呢？你那個時候喊停，大家比較不會有意見，為什麼？你踩穩了我們的立場，也維持了對等的原則，大家是不是相對來說沒話說，可是基於旅行業生計也很重要，所以你還是要做，那我也可以理解，就像你講的，有的時候我們丟開政治……"],["邱主任委員太三：後面的評估是交通部的評估。"],["牛委員煦庭：有的時候丟開政策，對，你剛剛講得很好，那是交通部的評估、交通部的立場，可是你陸委會的立場難道不應該守住嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：對啊！所以我們有表達……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以結論是你聽了交通部的建議嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：我們表達說我們認為這是一個純經貿的議題……"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：不需要跟政治……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以……"],["邱主任委員太三：第二個，委員，你應該很清楚。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個時候用不重視對等，我覺得很奇怪啦！"],["邱主任委員太三：老共對於藍白合還有很大的期待。"],["牛委員煦庭：你不要管，你不要講什麼藍不藍白合。"],["邱主任委員太三：這是事實啊！難道不是嗎？"],["牛委員煦庭：不要答非所問，好不好？"],["邱主任委員太三：不是，我這樣講是你剛剛講我的政治評估嘛！"],["牛委員煦庭：今天大家都沒有扯到其他的事情。"],["邱主任委員太三：我是回答剛剛你講的政治評估嘛！"],["牛委員煦庭：我們只有就陸客團這件事做討論，不要轉移焦點，好不好？"],["邱主任委員太三：我沒有轉移焦點，這個就是攪和在一起的。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以到了11月，後來到最後才喊停，那問題就很嚴重嘛！你前面的政策反反覆覆不連貫，而且在談判的時候沒有踩穩對等的立場，這點本席予以最嚴厲的譴責。"],["邱主任委員太三：談判怎麼沒有踩穩對等的立場？就是我們提出對等……"],["牛委員煦庭：人家不來你還要，你這樣熱臉貼人家冷屁股，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有啊！所以我們考量……"],["牛委員煦庭：好了啦！主委。還有20秒，請一下交通部，我也有問題要問交通部。"],["林次長國顯：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：既然這件事情已經變成這樣，不是很愉快了，主委休息一下啦！沒關係啦！這個事情既然已經不太愉快了，那至少要善後，你的報告來得很晚，講得也不清楚，我覺得不只是你剛剛講的可以提前一部分出團，這叫做儘量的亡羊補牢，這我可以理解，可是還是有很多旅行業者在這個過程中受到了利益損失，我們國家的信賴保護原則，政策發布之後不執行，本身就是一件很大的問題，對不對？那這件事情難道不值得進行補償嗎？難道不覺得應該為旅行業的寒冬做一些紓困嗎？以及第三個，更重要的，既然這樣的跨國旅遊有問題，我們的國旅難得不應該加強嗎？藉這個機會提醒一下，大家對國旅的評價，住宿太貴、重複性太高，又貴又難玩，難道不應該針對這件事情提出具體的改善措施嗎？剛剛我提的三個問題，請你會後提供書面，不要再拖到下班再給，趕快整理、趕快回來，好不好？"],["林次長國顯：好，謝謝委員，我們會後給。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員。次長，馬上請你們有關的工作人員提這個資料給牛委員，好不好？謝謝。","繼續我們請張宏陸委員來質詢。","我們請牛委員幫主席代理一下，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-3","speakers":["高金素梅","徐欣瑩","王美惠","吳琪銘","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","張智倫","丁學忠","麥玉珍","鄭天財Sra 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\"十月二十五就講你們是將軍不會他講不會來了餒對不對那就是一個負面的訊息嘛你如果講九月不明我接受十月是負面嘛就表示狀況不好你這個政策為什麼不那個時候喊停呢你那個時候喊停的時候大家比較不會有意見為什麼你踩穩了我們的立場也維持了對等的原則大家是不是相對來說沒話說可是基於旅行業生計也很重要所以你還是要做\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"十\", \"start\": 520.053, \"end\": 520.193, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 520.193, \"end\": 520.333, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 520.333, \"end\": 520.473, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"十\", \"start\": 520.473, \"end\": 520.593, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 520.593, \"end\": 520.733, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 520.733, \"end\": 521.054, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 521.054, \"end\": 521.274, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 521.274, \"end\": 521.394, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"將\"}, {\"word\": \"軍\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 521.394, \"end\": 521.514, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 521.514, \"end\": 521.814, 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{\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 532.019, \"end\": 532.159, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 532.159, \"end\": 532.259, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 532.259, \"end\": 532.419, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 532.419, \"end\": 532.559, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"喊\", \"start\": 532.559, \"end\": 532.719, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"停\", \"start\": 532.719, \"end\": 532.859, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 532.859, \"end\": 533.28, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 533.28, \"end\": 533.42, \"score\": 0.772}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 533.42, \"end\": 533.6, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 533.6, \"end\": 533.76, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"喊\", \"start\": 533.76, \"end\": 533.92, \"score\": 0.762}, {\"word\": \"停\", \"start\": 533.92, \"end\": 534.04, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"的\", 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{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 536.641, \"end\": 536.881, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 536.881, \"end\": 536.981, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 536.981, \"end\": 537.802, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 537.802, \"end\": 538.422, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"維\"}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 538.422, \"end\": 538.582, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 538.582, \"end\": 539.002, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 539.002, \"end\": 539.142, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 539.142, \"end\": 539.282, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 539.282, \"end\": 540.203, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"則\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 540.203, \"end\": 540.303, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 540.303, \"end\": 540.503, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 540.503, \"end\": 540.583, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 540.583, \"end\": 540.643, \"score\": 0.65}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 540.643, \"end\": 540.663, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 540.663, \"end\": 541.223, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 541.223, \"end\": 542.064, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 542.064, \"end\": 542.184, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 542.184, \"end\": 542.644, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 542.644, \"end\": 542.864, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 542.864, \"end\": 543.364, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"旅\", \"start\": 543.364, \"end\": 543.524, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 543.524, \"end\": 543.865, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 543.865, \"end\": 544.305, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 544.305, \"end\": 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00:00:26,677\n好謝謝主席齁這個駱惠主委跟交通部次長有請齁好有請主委有請次長謝謝牛煦好主委早安啊這個先請教你一個問題齁請問主委是否同意啊兩岸的交流應該要維持對等互利尊重兩岸在談判跟協商的過程中要避免我方讓利更不能熱臉貼冷屁股這樣的敘述你同意嗎\n\n2\n00:00:28,078 --> 00:00:43,610\n基本上平等互惠應該是一個最基本的原則啦大家都朝這個目標在追求因為我剛剛聽你回答蘇巧慧委員質詢的時候你也講對等是很重要的這一點本席完全同意和先續名第二個問題我想請教一下交通部的次長交通部的次長這個\n\n3\n00:00:47,250 --> 00:01:06,699\n去年7月1號開始研議恢復兩岸的觀光旅遊那8月24號是做了對外的公佈依對等的原則對不對也有講對等原則處理兩岸的團體旅遊事務那在你的報告裡也有寫有一個月的準備期嘛對不對這個有沒有錯我跟你做一下先做一下確認沒有問題沒有問題好那再換回主委謝謝\n\n4\n00:01:09,588 --> 00:01:34,961\n所以我們今天要談這件事情是這樣因為這個案子一度本來覺得蠻順利的也可以給旅行業多一點的空間但後來突然峰迴路轉那決策中間的反覆其實造成了旅行業很大的一個傷害所以我覺得我們今天在這個這個內政委員會我們大概要提出質詢去了解過程那更重要的是檢討本案的一些疏失有沒有對等我想這是非常重要的一個題目我先請問一下這個\n\n5\n00:01:36,602 --> 00:01:40,150\n我們過去陸委會跟對岸溝通的管道有哪些?\n\n6\n00:01:41,451 --> 00:02:09,977\n基本上是這樣大概兩岸過去這30幾年來不只是有很多的個案也簽了大概26項的這樣的一個協議那這個協議涵蓋了包括觀光旅遊什麼等等都有那這裡面的協議裡面就建立了一個所謂這個相互溝通的一個機制這機制大概分三個面向第一個平時這個資訊上的提供第二個發生個案上的處理第三個大概政策性的探討\n\n7\n00:02:10,857 --> 00:02:33,243\n例如說到底要不要再多開放哪些東西那這個其實跟你剛剛回答一樣啦陸委會網站其實有講嘛其實溝通不外乎三個管道嘛一個叫政府單位一個叫你剛剛講兩岸協議然後另外一個講說民間人士對不對就這樣講應該沒有錯對不對是陸委會講的另外因為我們就觀光的部分呢我們在北京呢有所謂的台旅會台灣旅行的這個旅行那大陸在我們這邊有海旅會\n\n8\n00:02:34,604 --> 00:02:37,926\n請問有沒有做具體的溝通?有沒有具體的成果?\n\n9\n00:02:50,133 --> 00:03:12,220\n基本上都有透過所謂雙方的這個這個所謂的窗口做了表達什麼樣的窗口是你從你陸委會溝通嗎還是從其他單位溝通就是我剛剛提到了就是所有的協議都有他的所謂的是不是從你陸委會的這個管道啦我們當然會大概都知道政策當討論完了之後就會有所謂業務執行單位啦\n\n10\n00:03:13,740 --> 00:03:20,583\n我剛剛不是提到嗎?雙方都有幾個管道,包括台旅會。所以是透過台旅會這個管道嗎?還是透過海基會呢?還是透過哪一個管道?您提到了,其實有很多的管道。\n\n11\n00:03:35,490 --> 00:04:00,828\n只是協議有協議的那陸委會有沒有掌握這些管道溝通的進度跟成果應該也要掌握嘛對不對因為你等於是整個兩岸主管機關嘛他們會回報對岸的態度包括我們的委員也很熱心啦我們右委員他們也會去大家也會監督什麼所以有管道對不對然後你有掌握嘛我從你剛剛答詢裡面整理出來的答案是這樣對不對我們簡單一點就好啦因為大家時間有限好不好\n\n12\n00:04:01,368 --> 00:04:26,717\n那根據交通部的報告因為你8月24號宣布嘛有一個月的準備期間對不對那為什麼要講一個月的準備期間其實就是要看這中間中國大陸對我們有沒有善意的回應嘛這是其中之一這是其中之一對不對那差不多就是一個月9月24號的時候有具體的回應嗎也就是從他們的各種管道你剛剛講的因為你有掌握嘛各種管道裡面是有得到說他們的人也會對等開放嗎有得到這樣的回覆嗎\n\n13\n00:04:27,217 --> 00:04:54,931\n基本上他們是要認為說現在這個時間點不願意談這個問題所以你其實得到的是不宜嘛對不對不是不願意在這個時間點上面那我想主要應該涉及到他們內部的整體政治情勢的評估啦我們的揣測啦那問題就來了嘛剛剛我們講說兩岸的談判跟協商不能單方面讓利嘛尤其是不能我們讓利嘛因為要對等尊重嘛那9月的時候其實你就已經掌握對方沒有打算要開\n\n14\n00:04:55,911 --> 00:05:08,517\n那為什麼不再早一點就這個政策我們就喊停呢?他有沒有打算我不曉得但是他是現在沒有要談這個議題他說沒有要談這個議題所以狀況不明的就沒有了因為雙方有政治的情勢我們有選舉嘛\n\n15\n00:05:11,559 --> 00:05:26,626\n阿他們有他們內部的問題嗎?所以其實9月24號沒有明確的回覆我再修正可以對不對?沒有明確的回覆好你就繼續但是阿10月25的時候阿國台辦的這個朱鳳聯開的記者會嘛因為這個我們的交通部長王國才說\n\n16\n00:05:28,047 --> 00:05:49,265\n這個按照評估啊今年大概是沒有忘了大陸客大陸團客是不會來了那要看明年的機會那國台辦直接就直接也就嗆了說這個有僵局僵局就是因為民進黨執政對不對這個當然是當然是對我們來講是很不禮貌嘛對不對但是這個客觀上來說他其實釋出了一個訊號嘛什麼樣的訊號就是不愉快嘛\n\n17\n00:05:50,706 --> 00:06:11,133\n你剛剛講從8月到9月對不對8月到9月的時候是不明確可是10月25我覺得這是不友善喔人家已經有點欺負我們了對不對對不對民進黨喜歡講說對方是欺負我們對不對現在10月25號就已經很明確的訊息說他對這個事情是很不滿意的是負面的東西訊息出來的時候那為什麼那個時候我們沒有喊停呢\n\n18\n00:06:12,285 --> 00:06:38,297\n為什麼那個時候我們就不喊停他們確定不來了那我們當然也要緩議啊對不對為什麼沒有呢是不是請我也說明一下對啊我想基本上他們所說到的這樣的用語啊其實政治上的解讀就很簡單嘛就不友善嘛不是不友善而已不是不友善喔人家就說不是只有不友善不是只有不友善而是說每個人都很清楚台灣正在進行什麼\n\n19\n00:06:40,332 --> 00:06:43,595\n總統大選所以老共他在操作啊他不是公開的對外說期待能夠跟他們所謂的相同這樣的一個政治立場的人當選嗎\n\n20\n00:07:01,470 --> 00:07:14,975\n問題是他跟你講他講說民進黨是談判僵局的障礙的時候在執行政策的角度執行政策的角度的時候按照民進黨的你當然應該基於對等嘛你是不是那個時候政策就要喊停\n\n21\n00:07:15,615 --> 00:07:16,115\n我們期待他自己能夠看到兩岸的經貿是\n\n22\n00:07:32,306 --> 00:07:54,919\n主委你剛剛講到選舉我也是蠻可以理解的因為11月3號還有啊11月3號交通部在答詢的時候答那時候那個游玉蘭前委員的質詢的時候說即便有不好的訊息我們還是3月要開放因為我們要考慮旅行業的升級主委我今天要把這個中區來龍去脈去做一個還原就是因為我們很擔心啊\n\n23\n00:07:55,902 --> 00:08:18,845\n你當初第一個開宗明義我們就講這個東西不能單方面讓利我們不能熱臉貼冷屁股可是講到現在這個溝通管道不清楚談判過程不對等政策又不連貫我覺得這個是要檢討的內委員剛剛提到溝通管道沒有所謂不清楚啊剛剛不是講了有那麼多的我剛剛問你哪一條管道你就說你沒有很多管道溝通的結果他們態度不清楚啊\n\n24\n00:08:19,005 --> 00:08:19,705\n9月10月應該不是要不好而是要不明的訊息\n\n25\n00:08:40,053 --> 00:09:06,206\n十月二十五就講你們是將軍不會他講不會來了餒對不對那就是一個負面的訊息嘛你如果講九月不明我接受十月是負面嘛就表示狀況不好你這個政策為什麼不那個時候喊停呢你那個時候喊停的時候大家比較不會有意見為什麼你踩穩了我們的立場也維持了對等的原則大家是不是相對來說沒話說可是基於旅行業生計也很重要所以你還是要做\n\n26\n00:09:06,886 --> 00:09:24,977\n那我也可以理解就像你講的有的時候我們丟開政治有的時候丟開政策對你剛講的很好那是交通部的評估交通部的立場可是你陸委會的立場難道不應該守住嗎對啊所以我們有表達所以結論是你聽了交通部的建議我們認為這是一個純經貿的議題不需要跟政治第二個\n\n27\n00:09:28,979 --> 00:09:38,164\n這個時候你又不認識對等我覺得很奇怪你不要講藍白河還有很大的期待啊你不要講什麼藍不藍白河這是事實啊這是事實啊不要打北鎖問好不好今天大家都沒有扯到其他的事情我們就部客團這件事在做討論不要轉移焦點好不好沒有轉移焦點這個就是攪和在一起的嘛\n\n28\n00:09:50,390 --> 00:09:50,430\n委員好\n\n29\n00:10:15,305 --> 00:10:42,147\n既然這件事情已經變成這樣了不是很愉快了主委休息一下啦沒關係啦這個事情既然已經不太愉快了那至少要善後嘛你的報告來得很晚講得也不清楚我覺得不只是這個你剛剛講的說我可以提前一部分出團這叫做盡量的亡羊補牢這我可以理解可是還是有很多的旅行業者在這個過程中受到了利益的損失嘛我們國家的信賴保護原則政策發布之後不執行本身就是一件很大的問題嘛\n\n30\n00:10:43,408 --> 00:11:00,783\n對不對那這件事情難道不值得進行補償嗎難道不覺得應該為旅行業的寒冬做一些紓困嗎以及第三個更重要的既然這樣子的跨國旅遊有問題我們的國旅難道不應該加強嗎提醒一下藉這個機會提醒一下\n\n31\n00:11:01,323 --> 00:11:01,884\n馬上請相關的你們的有關的工作人員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1048\t26677\t好謝謝主席齁 這個 駱惠主委跟交通部次長有請齁好 有請主委有請次長 謝謝牛煦好主委早安啊 這個先請教你一個問題齁 請問主委是否同意啊兩岸的交流應該要維持對等互利尊重兩岸在談判跟協商的過程中要避免我方讓利更不能熱臉貼冷屁股這樣的敘述你同意嗎\n28078\t43610\t基本上平等互惠應該是一個最基本的原則啦大家都朝這個目標在追求因為我剛剛聽你回答蘇巧慧委員質詢的時候你也講對等是很重要的這一點本席完全同意和先續名第二個問題我想請教一下交通部的次長交通部的次長這個\n47250\t66699\t去年7月1號開始研議恢復兩岸的觀光旅遊那8月24號是做了對外的公佈依對等的原則對不對也有講對等原則處理兩岸的團體旅遊事務那在你的報告裡也有寫有一個月的準備期嘛對不對這個有沒有錯我跟你做一下先做一下確認沒有問題沒有問題好那再換回主委謝謝\n69588\t94961\t所以我們今天要談這件事情是這樣因為這個案子一度本來覺得蠻順利的也可以給旅行業多一點的空間但後來突然峰迴路轉那決策中間的反覆其實造成了旅行業很大的一個傷害所以我覺得我們今天在這個這個內政委員會我們大概要提出質詢去了解過程那更重要的是檢討本案的一些疏失有沒有對等我想這是非常重要的一個題目我先請問一下這個\n96602\t100150\t我們過去陸委會跟對岸溝通的管道有哪些?\n101451\t129977\t基本上是這樣大概兩岸過去這30幾年來不只是有很多的個案也簽了大概26項的這樣的一個協議那這個協議涵蓋了包括觀光旅遊什麼等等都有那這裡面的協議裡面就建立了一個所謂這個相互溝通的一個機制這機制大概分三個面向第一個平時這個資訊上的提供第二個發生個案上的處理第三個大概政策性的探討\n130857\t153243\t例如說到底要不要再多開放哪些東西那這個其實跟你剛剛回答一樣啦陸委會網站其實有講嘛其實溝通不外乎三個管道嘛一個叫政府單位一個叫你剛剛講兩岸協議然後另外一個講說民間人士對不對就這樣講應該沒有錯對不對是陸委會講的另外因為我們就觀光的部分呢我們在北京呢有所謂的台旅會台灣旅行的這個旅行那大陸在我們這邊有海旅會\n154604\t157926\t請問有沒有做具體的溝通?有沒有具體的成果?\n170133\t192220\t基本上都有透過所謂雙方的這個這個所謂的窗口做了表達什麼樣的窗口是你從你陸委會溝通嗎還是從其他單位溝通就是我剛剛提到了就是所有的協議都有他的所謂的是不是從你陸委會的這個管道啦我們當然會大概都知道政策當討論完了之後就會有所謂業務執行單位啦\n193740\t200583\t我剛剛不是提到嗎?雙方都有幾個管道,包括台旅會。所以是透過台旅會這個管道嗎?還是透過海基會呢?還是透過哪一個管道?您提到了,其實有很多的管道。\n215490\t240828\t只是協議有協議的那陸委會有沒有掌握這些管道溝通的進度跟成果應該也要掌握嘛對不對因為你等於是整個兩岸主管機關嘛他們會回報對岸的態度包括我們的委員也很熱心啦我們右委員他們也會去大家也會監督什麼所以有管道對不對然後你有掌握嘛我從你剛剛答詢裡面整理出來的答案是這樣對不對我們簡單一點就好啦因為大家時間有限好不好\n241368\t266717\t那根據交通部的報告因為你8月24號宣布嘛有一個月的準備期間對不對那為什麼要講一個月的準備期間其實就是要看這中間中國大陸對我們有沒有善意的回應嘛這是其中之一這是其中之一對不對那差不多就是一個月9月24號的時候有具體的回應嗎也就是從他們的各種管道你剛剛講的因為你有掌握嘛各種管道裡面是有得到說他們的人也會對等開放嗎有得到這樣的回覆嗎\n267217\t294931\t基本上他們是要認為說現在這個時間點不願意談這個問題所以你其實得到的是不宜嘛 對不對不是 不願意在這個時間點上面那我想主要應該涉及到他們內部的整體政治情勢的評估啦我們的揣測啦那問題就來了嘛剛剛我們講說兩岸的談判跟協商不能單方面讓利嘛尤其是不能我們讓利嘛因為要對等尊重嘛那9月的時候其實你就已經掌握對方沒有打算要開\n295911\t308517\t那為什麼不再早一點就這個政策我們就喊停呢?他有沒有打算我不曉得但是他是現在沒有要談這個議題他說沒有要談這個議題所以狀況不明的就沒有了因為雙方有政治的情勢我們有選舉嘛\n311559\t326626\t阿他們有他們內部的問題嗎?所以其實9月24號沒有明確的回覆我再修正可以對不對?沒有明確的回覆好你就繼續但是阿10月25的時候阿國台辦的這個朱鳳聯開的記者會嘛因為這個我們的交通部長王國才說\n328047\t349265\t這個按照評估啊今年大概是沒有忘了大陸客大陸團客是不會來了那要看明年的機會那國台辦直接就直接也就嗆了說這個有僵局僵局就是因為民進黨執政對不對這個當然是當然是對我們來講是很不禮貌嘛對不對但是這個客觀上來說他其實釋出了一個訊號嘛什麼樣的訊號就是不愉快嘛\n350706\t371133\t你剛剛講從8月到9月對不對8月到9月的時候是不明確可是10月25我覺得這是不友善喔人家已經有點欺負我們了對不對對不對民進黨喜歡講說對方是欺負我們對不對現在10月25號就已經很明確的訊息說他對這個事情是很不滿意的是負面的東西訊息出來的時候那為什麼那個時候我們沒有喊停呢\n372285\t398297\t為什麼那個時候我們就不喊停他們確定不來了那我們當然也要緩議啊對不對為什麼沒有呢是不是請我也說明一下對啊我想基本上他們所說到的這樣的用語啊其實政治上的解讀就很簡單嘛就不友善嘛不是不友善而已不是不友善喔人家就說不是只有不友善不是只有不友善而是說每個人都很清楚台灣正在進行什麼\n400332\t403595\t總統大選所以老共他在操作啊他不是公開的對外說期待能夠跟他們所謂的相同這樣的一個政治立場的人當選嗎\n421470\t434975\t問題是他跟你講他講說民進黨是談判僵局的障礙的時候在執行政策的角度執行政策的角度的時候按照民進黨的你當然應該基於對等嘛你是不是那個時候政策就要喊停\n435615\t436115\t我們期待他自己能夠看到兩岸的經貿是\n452306\t474919\t主委你剛剛講到選舉我也是蠻可以理解的因為11月3號還有啊11月3號交通部在答詢的時候答那時候那個游玉蘭前委員的質詢的時候說即便有不好的訊息我們還是3月要開放因為我們要考慮旅行業的升級主委我今天要把這個中區來龍去脈去做一個還原就是因為我們很擔心啊\n475902\t498845\t你當初第一個開宗明義我們就講這個東西不能單方面讓利我們不能熱臉貼冷屁股可是講到現在這個溝通管道不清楚談判過程不對等政策又不連貫我覺得這個是要檢討的內委員剛剛提到溝通管道沒有所謂不清楚啊剛剛不是講了有那麼多的我剛剛問你哪一條管道你就說你沒有很多管道溝通的結果他們態度不清楚啊\n499005\t499705\t9月10月應該不是要不好而是要不明的訊息\n520053\t546206\t十月二十五就講你們是將軍不會他講不會來了餒對不對那就是一個負面的訊息嘛你如果講九月不明我接受十月是負面嘛就表示狀況不好你這個政策為什麼不那個時候喊停呢你那個時候喊停的時候大家比較不會有意見為什麼你踩穩了我們的立場也維持了對等的原則大家是不是相對來說沒話說可是基於旅行業生計也很重要所以你還是要做\n546886\t564977\t那我也可以理解就像你講的有的時候我們丟開政治有的時候丟開政策對你剛講的很好那是交通部的評估交通部的立場可是你陸委會的立場難道不應該守住嗎對啊所以我們有表達所以結論是你聽了交通部的建議我們認為這是一個純經貿的議題不需要跟政治第二個\n568979\t578164\t這個時候你又不認識對等我覺得很奇怪你不要講藍白河還有很大的期待啊你不要講什麼藍不藍白河這是事實啊這是事實啊不要打北鎖問好不好今天大家都沒有扯到其他的事情我們就部客團這件事在做討論不要轉移焦點好不好沒有轉移焦點這個就是攪和在一起的嘛\n590390\t590430\t委員好\n615305\t642147\t既然這件事情已經變成這樣了不是很愉快了主委休息一下啦沒關係啦這個事情既然已經不太愉快了那至少要善後嘛你的報告來得很晚講得也不清楚我覺得不只是這個你剛剛講的說我可以提前一部分出團這叫做盡量的亡羊補牢這我可以理解可是還是有很多的旅行業者在這個過程中受到了利益的損失嘛我們國家的信賴保護原則政策發布之後不執行本身就是一件很大的問題嘛\n643408\t660783\t對不對那這件事情難道不值得進行補償嗎難道不覺得應該為旅行業的寒冬做一些紓困嗎以及第三個更重要的既然這樣子的跨國旅遊有問題我們的國旅難道不應該加強嗎提醒一下藉這個機會提醒一下\n661323\t661884\t馬上請相關的你們的有關的工作人員\n","txt":"好謝謝主席齁 這個 駱惠主委跟交通部次長有請齁好 有請主委有請次長 謝謝牛煦好主委早安啊 這個先請教你一個問題齁 請問主委是否同意啊兩岸的交流應該要維持對等互利尊重兩岸在談判跟協商的過程中要避免我方讓利更不能熱臉貼冷屁股這樣的敘述你同意嗎\n基本上平等互惠應該是一個最基本的原則啦大家都朝這個目標在追求因為我剛剛聽你回答蘇巧慧委員質詢的時候你也講對等是很重要的這一點本席完全同意和先續名第二個問題我想請教一下交通部的次長交通部的次長這個\n去年7月1號開始研議恢復兩岸的觀光旅遊那8月24號是做了對外的公佈依對等的原則對不對也有講對等原則處理兩岸的團體旅遊事務那在你的報告裡也有寫有一個月的準備期嘛對不對這個有沒有錯我跟你做一下先做一下確認沒有問題沒有問題好那再換回主委謝謝\n所以我們今天要談這件事情是這樣因為這個案子一度本來覺得蠻順利的也可以給旅行業多一點的空間但後來突然峰迴路轉那決策中間的反覆其實造成了旅行業很大的一個傷害所以我覺得我們今天在這個這個內政委員會我們大概要提出質詢去了解過程那更重要的是檢討本案的一些疏失有沒有對等我想這是非常重要的一個題目我先請問一下這個\n我們過去陸委會跟對岸溝通的管道有哪些?\n基本上是這樣大概兩岸過去這30幾年來不只是有很多的個案也簽了大概26項的這樣的一個協議那這個協議涵蓋了包括觀光旅遊什麼等等都有那這裡面的協議裡面就建立了一個所謂這個相互溝通的一個機制這機制大概分三個面向第一個平時這個資訊上的提供第二個發生個案上的處理第三個大概政策性的探討\n例如說到底要不要再多開放哪些東西那這個其實跟你剛剛回答一樣啦陸委會網站其實有講嘛其實溝通不外乎三個管道嘛一個叫政府單位一個叫你剛剛講兩岸協議然後另外一個講說民間人士對不對就這樣講應該沒有錯對不對是陸委會講的另外因為我們就觀光的部分呢我們在北京呢有所謂的台旅會台灣旅行的這個旅行那大陸在我們這邊有海旅會\n請問有沒有做具體的溝通?有沒有具體的成果?\n基本上都有透過所謂雙方的這個這個所謂的窗口做了表達什麼樣的窗口是你從你陸委會溝通嗎還是從其他單位溝通就是我剛剛提到了就是所有的協議都有他的所謂的是不是從你陸委會的這個管道啦我們當然會大概都知道政策當討論完了之後就會有所謂業務執行單位啦\n我剛剛不是提到嗎?雙方都有幾個管道,包括台旅會。所以是透過台旅會這個管道嗎?還是透過海基會呢?還是透過哪一個管道?您提到了,其實有很多的管道。\n只是協議有協議的那陸委會有沒有掌握這些管道溝通的進度跟成果應該也要掌握嘛對不對因為你等於是整個兩岸主管機關嘛他們會回報對岸的態度包括我們的委員也很熱心啦我們右委員他們也會去大家也會監督什麼所以有管道對不對然後你有掌握嘛我從你剛剛答詢裡面整理出來的答案是這樣對不對我們簡單一點就好啦因為大家時間有限好不好\n那根據交通部的報告因為你8月24號宣布嘛有一個月的準備期間對不對那為什麼要講一個月的準備期間其實就是要看這中間中國大陸對我們有沒有善意的回應嘛這是其中之一這是其中之一對不對那差不多就是一個月9月24號的時候有具體的回應嗎也就是從他們的各種管道你剛剛講的因為你有掌握嘛各種管道裡面是有得到說他們的人也會對等開放嗎有得到這樣的回覆嗎\n基本上他們是要認為說現在這個時間點不願意談這個問題所以你其實得到的是不宜嘛 對不對不是 不願意在這個時間點上面那我想主要應該涉及到他們內部的整體政治情勢的評估啦我們的揣測啦那問題就來了嘛剛剛我們講說兩岸的談判跟協商不能單方面讓利嘛尤其是不能我們讓利嘛因為要對等尊重嘛那9月的時候其實你就已經掌握對方沒有打算要開\n那為什麼不再早一點就這個政策我們就喊停呢?他有沒有打算我不曉得但是他是現在沒有要談這個議題他說沒有要談這個議題所以狀況不明的就沒有了因為雙方有政治的情勢我們有選舉嘛\n阿他們有他們內部的問題嗎?所以其實9月24號沒有明確的回覆我再修正可以對不對?沒有明確的回覆好你就繼續但是阿10月25的時候阿國台辦的這個朱鳳聯開的記者會嘛因為這個我們的交通部長王國才說\n這個按照評估啊今年大概是沒有忘了大陸客大陸團客是不會來了那要看明年的機會那國台辦直接就直接也就嗆了說這個有僵局僵局就是因為民進黨執政對不對這個當然是當然是對我們來講是很不禮貌嘛對不對但是這個客觀上來說他其實釋出了一個訊號嘛什麼樣的訊號就是不愉快嘛\n你剛剛講從8月到9月對不對8月到9月的時候是不明確可是10月25我覺得這是不友善喔人家已經有點欺負我們了對不對對不對民進黨喜歡講說對方是欺負我們對不對現在10月25號就已經很明確的訊息說他對這個事情是很不滿意的是負面的東西訊息出來的時候那為什麼那個時候我們沒有喊停呢\n為什麼那個時候我們就不喊停他們確定不來了那我們當然也要緩議啊對不對為什麼沒有呢是不是請我也說明一下對啊我想基本上他們所說到的這樣的用語啊其實政治上的解讀就很簡單嘛就不友善嘛不是不友善而已不是不友善喔人家就說不是只有不友善不是只有不友善而是說每個人都很清楚台灣正在進行什麼\n總統大選所以老共他在操作啊他不是公開的對外說期待能夠跟他們所謂的相同這樣的一個政治立場的人當選嗎\n問題是他跟你講他講說民進黨是談判僵局的障礙的時候在執行政策的角度執行政策的角度的時候按照民進黨的你當然應該基於對等嘛你是不是那個時候政策就要喊停\n我們期待他自己能夠看到兩岸的經貿是\n主委你剛剛講到選舉我也是蠻可以理解的因為11月3號還有啊11月3號交通部在答詢的時候答那時候那個游玉蘭前委員的質詢的時候說即便有不好的訊息我們還是3月要開放因為我們要考慮旅行業的升級主委我今天要把這個中區來龍去脈去做一個還原就是因為我們很擔心啊\n你當初第一個開宗明義我們就講這個東西不能單方面讓利我們不能熱臉貼冷屁股可是講到現在這個溝通管道不清楚談判過程不對等政策又不連貫我覺得這個是要檢討的內委員剛剛提到溝通管道沒有所謂不清楚啊剛剛不是講了有那麼多的我剛剛問你哪一條管道你就說你沒有很多管道溝通的結果他們態度不清楚啊\n9月10月應該不是要不好而是要不明的訊息\n十月二十五就講你們是將軍不會他講不會來了餒對不對那就是一個負面的訊息嘛你如果講九月不明我接受十月是負面嘛就表示狀況不好你這個政策為什麼不那個時候喊停呢你那個時候喊停的時候大家比較不會有意見為什麼你踩穩了我們的立場也維持了對等的原則大家是不是相對來說沒話說可是基於旅行業生計也很重要所以你還是要做\n那我也可以理解就像你講的有的時候我們丟開政治有的時候丟開政策對你剛講的很好那是交通部的評估交通部的立場可是你陸委會的立場難道不應該守住嗎對啊所以我們有表達所以結論是你聽了交通部的建議我們認為這是一個純經貿的議題不需要跟政治第二個\n這個時候你又不認識對等我覺得很奇怪你不要講藍白河還有很大的期待啊你不要講什麼藍不藍白河這是事實啊這是事實啊不要打北鎖問好不好今天大家都沒有扯到其他的事情我們就部客團這件事在做討論不要轉移焦點好不好沒有轉移焦點這個就是攪和在一起的嘛\n委員好\n既然這件事情已經變成這樣了不是很愉快了主委休息一下啦沒關係啦這個事情既然已經不太愉快了那至少要善後嘛你的報告來得很晚講得也不清楚我覺得不只是這個你剛剛講的說我可以提前一部分出團這叫做盡量的亡羊補牢這我可以理解可是還是有很多的旅行業者在這個過程中受到了利益的損失嘛我們國家的信賴保護原則政策發布之後不執行本身就是一件很大的問題嘛\n對不對那這件事情難道不值得進行補償嗎難道不覺得應該為旅行業的寒冬做一些紓困嗎以及第三個更重要的既然這樣子的跨國旅遊有問題我們的國旅難道不應該加強嗎提醒一下藉這個機會提醒一下\n馬上請相關的你們的有關的工作人員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.048 --> 00:26.677\n好謝謝主席齁這個駱惠主委跟交通部次長有請齁好有請主委有請次長謝謝牛煦好主委早安啊這個先請教你一個問題齁請問主委是否同意啊兩岸的交流應該要維持對等互利尊重兩岸在談判跟協商的過程中要避免我方讓利更不能熱臉貼冷屁股這樣的敘述你同意嗎\n\n00:28.078 --> 00:43.610\n基本上平等互惠應該是一個最基本的原則啦大家都朝這個目標在追求因為我剛剛聽你回答蘇巧慧委員質詢的時候你也講對等是很重要的這一點本席完全同意和先續名第二個問題我想請教一下交通部的次長交通部的次長這個\n\n00:47.250 --> 01:06.699\n去年7月1號開始研議恢復兩岸的觀光旅遊那8月24號是做了對外的公佈依對等的原則對不對也有講對等原則處理兩岸的團體旅遊事務那在你的報告裡也有寫有一個月的準備期嘛對不對這個有沒有錯我跟你做一下先做一下確認沒有問題沒有問題好那再換回主委謝謝\n\n01:09.588 --> 01:34.961\n所以我們今天要談這件事情是這樣因為這個案子一度本來覺得蠻順利的也可以給旅行業多一點的空間但後來突然峰迴路轉那決策中間的反覆其實造成了旅行業很大的一個傷害所以我覺得我們今天在這個這個內政委員會我們大概要提出質詢去了解過程那更重要的是檢討本案的一些疏失有沒有對等我想這是非常重要的一個題目我先請問一下這個\n\n01:36.602 --> 01:40.150\n我們過去陸委會跟對岸溝通的管道有哪些?\n\n01:41.451 --> 02:09.977\n基本上是這樣大概兩岸過去這30幾年來不只是有很多的個案也簽了大概26項的這樣的一個協議那這個協議涵蓋了包括觀光旅遊什麼等等都有那這裡面的協議裡面就建立了一個所謂這個相互溝通的一個機制這機制大概分三個面向第一個平時這個資訊上的提供第二個發生個案上的處理第三個大概政策性的探討\n\n02:10.857 --> 02:33.243\n例如說到底要不要再多開放哪些東西那這個其實跟你剛剛回答一樣啦陸委會網站其實有講嘛其實溝通不外乎三個管道嘛一個叫政府單位一個叫你剛剛講兩岸協議然後另外一個講說民間人士對不對就這樣講應該沒有錯對不對是陸委會講的另外因為我們就觀光的部分呢我們在北京呢有所謂的台旅會台灣旅行的這個旅行那大陸在我們這邊有海旅會\n\n02:34.604 --> 02:37.926\n請問有沒有做具體的溝通?有沒有具體的成果?\n\n02:50.133 --> 03:12.220\n基本上都有透過所謂雙方的這個這個所謂的窗口做了表達什麼樣的窗口是你從你陸委會溝通嗎還是從其他單位溝通就是我剛剛提到了就是所有的協議都有他的所謂的是不是從你陸委會的這個管道啦我們當然會大概都知道政策當討論完了之後就會有所謂業務執行單位啦\n\n03:13.740 --> 03:20.583\n我剛剛不是提到嗎?雙方都有幾個管道,包括台旅會。所以是透過台旅會這個管道嗎?還是透過海基會呢?還是透過哪一個管道?您提到了,其實有很多的管道。\n\n03:35.490 --> 04:00.828\n只是協議有協議的那陸委會有沒有掌握這些管道溝通的進度跟成果應該也要掌握嘛對不對因為你等於是整個兩岸主管機關嘛他們會回報對岸的態度包括我們的委員也很熱心啦我們右委員他們也會去大家也會監督什麼所以有管道對不對然後你有掌握嘛我從你剛剛答詢裡面整理出來的答案是這樣對不對我們簡單一點就好啦因為大家時間有限好不好\n\n04:01.368 --> 04:26.717\n那根據交通部的報告因為你8月24號宣布嘛有一個月的準備期間對不對那為什麼要講一個月的準備期間其實就是要看這中間中國大陸對我們有沒有善意的回應嘛這是其中之一這是其中之一對不對那差不多就是一個月9月24號的時候有具體的回應嗎也就是從他們的各種管道你剛剛講的因為你有掌握嘛各種管道裡面是有得到說他們的人也會對等開放嗎有得到這樣的回覆嗎\n\n04:27.217 --> 04:54.931\n基本上他們是要認為說現在這個時間點不願意談這個問題所以你其實得到的是不宜嘛對不對不是不願意在這個時間點上面那我想主要應該涉及到他們內部的整體政治情勢的評估啦我們的揣測啦那問題就來了嘛剛剛我們講說兩岸的談判跟協商不能單方面讓利嘛尤其是不能我們讓利嘛因為要對等尊重嘛那9月的時候其實你就已經掌握對方沒有打算要開\n\n04:55.911 --> 05:08.517\n那為什麼不再早一點就這個政策我們就喊停呢?他有沒有打算我不曉得但是他是現在沒有要談這個議題他說沒有要談這個議題所以狀況不明的就沒有了因為雙方有政治的情勢我們有選舉嘛\n\n05:11.559 --> 05:26.626\n阿他們有他們內部的問題嗎?所以其實9月24號沒有明確的回覆我再修正可以對不對?沒有明確的回覆好你就繼續但是阿10月25的時候阿國台辦的這個朱鳳聯開的記者會嘛因為這個我們的交通部長王國才說\n\n05:28.047 --> 05:49.265\n這個按照評估啊今年大概是沒有忘了大陸客大陸團客是不會來了那要看明年的機會那國台辦直接就直接也就嗆了說這個有僵局僵局就是因為民進黨執政對不對這個當然是當然是對我們來講是很不禮貌嘛對不對但是這個客觀上來說他其實釋出了一個訊號嘛什麼樣的訊號就是不愉快嘛\n\n05:50.706 --> 06:11.133\n你剛剛講從8月到9月對不對8月到9月的時候是不明確可是10月25我覺得這是不友善喔人家已經有點欺負我們了對不對對不對民進黨喜歡講說對方是欺負我們對不對現在10月25號就已經很明確的訊息說他對這個事情是很不滿意的是負面的東西訊息出來的時候那為什麼那個時候我們沒有喊停呢\n\n06:12.285 --> 06:38.297\n為什麼那個時候我們就不喊停他們確定不來了那我們當然也要緩議啊對不對為什麼沒有呢是不是請我也說明一下對啊我想基本上他們所說到的這樣的用語啊其實政治上的解讀就很簡單嘛就不友善嘛不是不友善而已不是不友善喔人家就說不是只有不友善不是只有不友善而是說每個人都很清楚台灣正在進行什麼\n\n06:40.332 --> 06:43.595\n總統大選所以老共他在操作啊他不是公開的對外說期待能夠跟他們所謂的相同這樣的一個政治立場的人當選嗎\n\n07:01.470 --> 07:14.975\n問題是他跟你講他講說民進黨是談判僵局的障礙的時候在執行政策的角度執行政策的角度的時候按照民進黨的你當然應該基於對等嘛你是不是那個時候政策就要喊停\n\n07:15.615 --> 07:16.115\n我們期待他自己能夠看到兩岸的經貿是\n\n07:32.306 --> 07:54.919\n主委你剛剛講到選舉我也是蠻可以理解的因為11月3號還有啊11月3號交通部在答詢的時候答那時候那個游玉蘭前委員的質詢的時候說即便有不好的訊息我們還是3月要開放因為我們要考慮旅行業的升級主委我今天要把這個中區來龍去脈去做一個還原就是因為我們很擔心啊\n\n07:55.902 --> 08:18.845\n你當初第一個開宗明義我們就講這個東西不能單方面讓利我們不能熱臉貼冷屁股可是講到現在這個溝通管道不清楚談判過程不對等政策又不連貫我覺得這個是要檢討的內委員剛剛提到溝通管道沒有所謂不清楚啊剛剛不是講了有那麼多的我剛剛問你哪一條管道你就說你沒有很多管道溝通的結果他們態度不清楚啊\n\n08:19.005 --> 08:19.705\n9月10月應該不是要不好而是要不明的訊息\n\n08:40.053 --> 09:06.206\n十月二十五就講你們是將軍不會他講不會來了餒對不對那就是一個負面的訊息嘛你如果講九月不明我接受十月是負面嘛就表示狀況不好你這個政策為什麼不那個時候喊停呢你那個時候喊停的時候大家比較不會有意見為什麼你踩穩了我們的立場也維持了對等的原則大家是不是相對來說沒話說可是基於旅行業生計也很重要所以你還是要做\n\n09:06.886 --> 09:24.977\n那我也可以理解就像你講的有的時候我們丟開政治有的時候丟開政策對你剛講的很好那是交通部的評估交通部的立場可是你陸委會的立場難道不應該守住嗎對啊所以我們有表達所以結論是你聽了交通部的建議我們認為這是一個純經貿的議題不需要跟政治第二個\n\n09:28.979 --> 09:38.164\n這個時候你又不認識對等我覺得很奇怪你不要講藍白河還有很大的期待啊你不要講什麼藍不藍白河這是事實啊這是事實啊不要打北鎖問好不好今天大家都沒有扯到其他的事情我們就部客團這件事在做討論不要轉移焦點好不好沒有轉移焦點這個就是攪和在一起的嘛\n\n09:50.390 --> 09:50.430\n委員好\n\n10:15.305 --> 10:42.147\n既然這件事情已經變成這樣了不是很愉快了主委休息一下啦沒關係啦這個事情既然已經不太愉快了那至少要善後嘛你的報告來得很晚講得也不清楚我覺得不只是這個你剛剛講的說我可以提前一部分出團這叫做盡量的亡羊補牢這我可以理解可是還是有很多的旅行業者在這個過程中受到了利益的損失嘛我們國家的信賴保護原則政策發布之後不執行本身就是一件很大的問題嘛\n\n10:43.408 --> 11:00.783\n對不對那這件事情難道不值得進行補償嗎難道不覺得應該為旅行業的寒冬做一些紓困嗎以及第三個更重要的既然這樣子的跨國旅遊有問題我們的國旅難道不應該加強嗎提醒一下藉這個機會提醒一下\n\n11:01.323 --> 11:01.884\n馬上請相關的你們的有關的工作人員\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.048,"end":26.677,"text":"好謝謝主席齁 這個 駱惠主委跟交通部次長有請齁好 有請主委有請次長 謝謝牛煦好主委早安啊 這個先請教你一個問題齁 請問主委是否同意啊兩岸的交流應該要維持對等互利尊重兩岸在談判跟協商的過程中要避免我方讓利更不能熱臉貼冷屁股這樣的敘述你同意嗎"},{"start":28.078,"end":43.61,"text":"基本上平等互惠應該是一個最基本的原則啦大家都朝這個目標在追求因為我剛剛聽你回答蘇巧慧委員質詢的時候你也講對等是很重要的這一點本席完全同意和先續名第二個問題我想請教一下交通部的次長交通部的次長這個"},{"start":47.25,"end":66.699,"text":"去年7月1號開始研議恢復兩岸的觀光旅遊那8月24號是做了對外的公佈依對等的原則對不對也有講對等原則處理兩岸的團體旅遊事務那在你的報告裡也有寫有一個月的準備期嘛對不對這個有沒有錯我跟你做一下先做一下確認沒有問題沒有問題好那再換回主委謝謝"},{"start":69.588,"end":94.961,"text":"所以我們今天要談這件事情是這樣因為這個案子一度本來覺得蠻順利的也可以給旅行業多一點的空間但後來突然峰迴路轉那決策中間的反覆其實造成了旅行業很大的一個傷害所以我覺得我們今天在這個這個內政委員會我們大概要提出質詢去了解過程那更重要的是檢討本案的一些疏失有沒有對等我想這是非常重要的一個題目我先請問一下這個"},{"start":96.602,"end":100.15,"text":"我們過去陸委會跟對岸溝通的管道有哪些?"},{"start":101.451,"end":129.977,"text":"基本上是這樣大概兩岸過去這30幾年來不只是有很多的個案也簽了大概26項的這樣的一個協議那這個協議涵蓋了包括觀光旅遊什麼等等都有那這裡面的協議裡面就建立了一個所謂這個相互溝通的一個機制這機制大概分三個面向第一個平時這個資訊上的提供第二個發生個案上的處理第三個大概政策性的探討"},{"start":130.857,"end":153.243,"text":"例如說到底要不要再多開放哪些東西那這個其實跟你剛剛回答一樣啦陸委會網站其實有講嘛其實溝通不外乎三個管道嘛一個叫政府單位一個叫你剛剛講兩岸協議然後另外一個講說民間人士對不對就這樣講應該沒有錯對不對是陸委會講的另外因為我們就觀光的部分呢我們在北京呢有所謂的台旅會台灣旅行的這個旅行那大陸在我們這邊有海旅會"},{"start":154.604,"end":157.926,"text":"請問有沒有做具體的溝通?有沒有具體的成果?"},{"start":170.133,"end":192.22,"text":"基本上都有透過所謂雙方的這個這個所謂的窗口做了表達什麼樣的窗口是你從你陸委會溝通嗎還是從其他單位溝通就是我剛剛提到了就是所有的協議都有他的所謂的是不是從你陸委會的這個管道啦我們當然會大概都知道政策當討論完了之後就會有所謂業務執行單位啦"},{"start":193.74,"end":200.583,"text":"我剛剛不是提到嗎?雙方都有幾個管道,包括台旅會。所以是透過台旅會這個管道嗎?還是透過海基會呢?還是透過哪一個管道?您提到了,其實有很多的管道。"},{"start":215.49,"end":240.828,"text":"只是協議有協議的那陸委會有沒有掌握這些管道溝通的進度跟成果應該也要掌握嘛對不對因為你等於是整個兩岸主管機關嘛他們會回報對岸的態度包括我們的委員也很熱心啦我們右委員他們也會去大家也會監督什麼所以有管道對不對然後你有掌握嘛我從你剛剛答詢裡面整理出來的答案是這樣對不對我們簡單一點就好啦因為大家時間有限好不好"},{"start":241.368,"end":266.717,"text":"那根據交通部的報告因為你8月24號宣布嘛有一個月的準備期間對不對那為什麼要講一個月的準備期間其實就是要看這中間中國大陸對我們有沒有善意的回應嘛這是其中之一這是其中之一對不對那差不多就是一個月9月24號的時候有具體的回應嗎也就是從他們的各種管道你剛剛講的因為你有掌握嘛各種管道裡面是有得到說他們的人也會對等開放嗎有得到這樣的回覆嗎"},{"start":267.217,"end":294.931,"text":"基本上他們是要認為說現在這個時間點不願意談這個問題所以你其實得到的是不宜嘛 對不對不是 不願意在這個時間點上面那我想主要應該涉及到他們內部的整體政治情勢的評估啦我們的揣測啦那問題就來了嘛剛剛我們講說兩岸的談判跟協商不能單方面讓利嘛尤其是不能我們讓利嘛因為要對等尊重嘛那9月的時候其實你就已經掌握對方沒有打算要開"},{"start":295.911,"end":308.517,"text":"那為什麼不再早一點就這個政策我們就喊停呢?他有沒有打算我不曉得但是他是現在沒有要談這個議題他說沒有要談這個議題所以狀況不明的就沒有了因為雙方有政治的情勢我們有選舉嘛"},{"start":311.559,"end":326.626,"text":"阿他們有他們內部的問題嗎?所以其實9月24號沒有明確的回覆我再修正可以對不對?沒有明確的回覆好你就繼續但是阿10月25的時候阿國台辦的這個朱鳳聯開的記者會嘛因為這個我們的交通部長王國才說"},{"start":328.047,"end":349.265,"text":"這個按照評估啊今年大概是沒有忘了大陸客大陸團客是不會來了那要看明年的機會那國台辦直接就直接也就嗆了說這個有僵局僵局就是因為民進黨執政對不對這個當然是當然是對我們來講是很不禮貌嘛對不對但是這個客觀上來說他其實釋出了一個訊號嘛什麼樣的訊號就是不愉快嘛"},{"start":350.706,"end":371.133,"text":"你剛剛講從8月到9月對不對8月到9月的時候是不明確可是10月25我覺得這是不友善喔人家已經有點欺負我們了對不對對不對民進黨喜歡講說對方是欺負我們對不對現在10月25號就已經很明確的訊息說他對這個事情是很不滿意的是負面的東西訊息出來的時候那為什麼那個時候我們沒有喊停呢"},{"start":372.285,"end":398.297,"text":"為什麼那個時候我們就不喊停他們確定不來了那我們當然也要緩議啊對不對為什麼沒有呢是不是請我也說明一下對啊我想基本上他們所說到的這樣的用語啊其實政治上的解讀就很簡單嘛就不友善嘛不是不友善而已不是不友善喔人家就說不是只有不友善不是只有不友善而是說每個人都很清楚台灣正在進行什麼"},{"start":400.332,"end":403.595,"text":"總統大選所以老共他在操作啊他不是公開的對外說期待能夠跟他們所謂的相同這樣的一個政治立場的人當選嗎"},{"start":421.47,"end":434.975,"text":"問題是他跟你講他講說民進黨是談判僵局的障礙的時候在執行政策的角度執行政策的角度的時候按照民進黨的你當然應該基於對等嘛你是不是那個時候政策就要喊停"},{"start":435.615,"end":436.115,"text":"我們期待他自己能夠看到兩岸的經貿是"},{"start":452.306,"end":474.919,"text":"主委你剛剛講到選舉我也是蠻可以理解的因為11月3號還有啊11月3號交通部在答詢的時候答那時候那個游玉蘭前委員的質詢的時候說即便有不好的訊息我們還是3月要開放因為我們要考慮旅行業的升級主委我今天要把這個中區來龍去脈去做一個還原就是因為我們很擔心啊"},{"start":475.902,"end":498.845,"text":"你當初第一個開宗明義我們就講這個東西不能單方面讓利我們不能熱臉貼冷屁股可是講到現在這個溝通管道不清楚談判過程不對等政策又不連貫我覺得這個是要檢討的內委員剛剛提到溝通管道沒有所謂不清楚啊剛剛不是講了有那麼多的我剛剛問你哪一條管道你就說你沒有很多管道溝通的結果他們態度不清楚啊"},{"start":499.005,"end":499.705,"text":"9月10月應該不是要不好而是要不明的訊息"},{"start":520.053,"end":546.206,"text":"十月二十五就講你們是將軍不會他講不會來了餒對不對那就是一個負面的訊息嘛你如果講九月不明我接受十月是負面嘛就表示狀況不好你這個政策為什麼不那個時候喊停呢你那個時候喊停的時候大家比較不會有意見為什麼你踩穩了我們的立場也維持了對等的原則大家是不是相對來說沒話說可是基於旅行業生計也很重要所以你還是要做"},{"start":546.886,"end":564.977,"text":"那我也可以理解就像你講的有的時候我們丟開政治有的時候丟開政策對你剛講的很好那是交通部的評估交通部的立場可是你陸委會的立場難道不應該守住嗎對啊所以我們有表達所以結論是你聽了交通部的建議我們認為這是一個純經貿的議題不需要跟政治第二個"},{"start":568.979,"end":578.164,"text":"這個時候你又不認識對等我覺得很奇怪你不要講藍白河還有很大的期待啊你不要講什麼藍不藍白河這是事實啊這是事實啊不要打北鎖問好不好今天大家都沒有扯到其他的事情我們就部客團這件事在做討論不要轉移焦點好不好沒有轉移焦點這個就是攪和在一起的嘛"},{"start":590.39,"end":590.43,"text":"委員好"},{"start":615.305,"end":642.147,"text":"既然這件事情已經變成這樣了不是很愉快了主委休息一下啦沒關係啦這個事情既然已經不太愉快了那至少要善後嘛你的報告來得很晚講得也不清楚我覺得不只是這個你剛剛講的說我可以提前一部分出團這叫做盡量的亡羊補牢這我可以理解可是還是有很多的旅行業者在這個過程中受到了利益的損失嘛我們國家的信賴保護原則政策發布之後不執行本身就是一件很大的問題嘛"},{"start":643.408,"end":660.783,"text":"對不對那這件事情難道不值得進行補償嗎難道不覺得應該為旅行業的寒冬做一些紓困嗎以及第三個更重要的既然這樣子的跨國旅遊有問題我們的國旅難道不應該加強嗎提醒一下藉這個機會提醒一下"},{"start":661.323,"end":661.884,"text":"馬上請相關的你們的有關的工作人員"}]}}}}