{"id":149379,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149379","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f916d0de33f944259b97b2be93641c974f8ba9b0039caa7a63b12e6e223e8e7575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"10:23:33 - 10:35:08","影片長度":"00:11:35","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請大陸委員會主任委員及交通部次長、交通部觀光署署長就「赴陸旅遊團停招：決策過程與後續影響評估」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-3"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":695,"end_time":"2024-03-06T10:35:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T10:23:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":572,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（10時23分）謝謝我們的牛委員，我們請一下陸委會主委。"],["主席：好，邱太三主委，有請。"],["邱主任委員太三：高金委員。"],["高金委員素梅：主委，你好，辛苦了！最近真的非常多的事情，造成您的工作業務量非常的大。"],["邱主任委員太三：謝謝體恤。"],["高金委員素梅：本來之前就沒有怎麼樣的溝通管道，現在更是惡意螺旋一直往上不斷升高。我們昨天看到李強在人大的報告只提「統一」，但去年他曾經講過「和平統一」，「和平」這2個字被消失了，這是不是代表他們對臺灣的態度更強硬？因為今天還有其他的報告，我希望您用1分鐘來簡單回答我。"],["邱主任委員太三：我們如果回顧比較長的歷史，民進黨執政的時候，他們大概都以反獨為優先，如果是國民黨執政的時候，他們就希望以統一為優先，在這兩個裡面做主軸上的區分。所以我剛剛也提到，我們也來理解一下他們是不是跟過去一樣或者是有特別的用意。這個就是我剛剛講的，現在沒有辦法去下論斷。"],["高金委員素梅：所以你們根本沒有跟著整個時勢趕快採取因應措施！"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上都有在進行，但只是……"],["高金委員素梅：對不起，主委，您剛剛講到的都是意識形態的部分，今天您是全民的陸委會主委，我是全民選出來的立法委員，我們不應該站在哪一個執政黨的面前來談論國家安全問題還有全臺灣2,300萬人民的安全問題，所以本席建議，現在兩岸的惡意螺旋持續升高、非常的嚴重，其實這不是好事情。所謂政府就是全民的政府，不是哪一個政黨的政府，不是嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：對，我們都同意。"],["高金委員素梅：所以對於政府，你們應該是有責任要來降低這樣的危機，這才是全民的利益嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：我們都在努力當中。"],["高金委員素梅：同意？好，謝謝您的回答。","現在我就針對今天的專案報告來對您提出質詢：我們好不容易等到新冠疫情結束之後，去年11月交通部原本規劃今年春節就要恢復旅行社組團赴陸旅遊的具體內容，按照不管是陸委會的報告也好、交通部的報告也好、觀光署的報告也好，你們總共有3個重點，第一個重點就是因為逆差的問題，對吧？"],["邱主任委員太三：嗯。"],["高金委員素梅：第二個就是改變了M503航路運行方式，因為你們考量整體情勢，不利於國家的利益。然後還有第三個是用反間諜法，因為反間諜法會造成國人到大陸去，人身安全的風險增加，而我們沒有有效的機制可以處理。基於這樣的因素，你們就暫停了組團赴陸的部分。","我就覺得有一點納悶，因此想要問一下你們，所謂反間諜法的原因不是現在就有嘛，對不對？6月前到大陸去的，不管是組團或自由行的這些人，難道就沒有所謂的人身安全風險嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：所以委員，我們陸委會多次在例行記者會裡面一再昭告國人，大陸整個法律制定所涉及的不是只有這些，如果是更早期，包括他們所謂的數據安全法，你在那邊如果上網看他們相關單位的數據，也可能會涉及相關的法制……"],["高金委員素梅：沒有，對不起，我必須要……"],["邱主任委員太三：我們陸委會大概在兩個禮拜一次的例行記者會中，一定會提醒國人大陸整體的情勢。第二個，我們大概也會簡單地敘述哪些國人……"],["高金委員素梅：對不起，你上面寫說沒有有效機制可以處理啊！那你是不是要趕快從這個有效的機制著手，而不是要禁止國人出去啊！不是嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：委員真的講得很好。"],["高金委員素梅：對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：所以我們希望他們跟我們簽的協議……"],["高金委員素梅：你們有效的機制是什麼？"],["邱主任委員太三：我們本來就有機制在，就像我剛剛講的……"],["高金委員素梅：現在有效的機制是什麼？"],["邱主任委員太三：就是我們按照過去雙方協議的機制……"],["高金委員素梅：就是兩岸要互相和善嘛！對不對？兩岸要彼此和善嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：對！但是他們……"],["高金委員素梅：所以和善更重要嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：他們不按照法治國家的原則來處理啊！"],["高金委員素梅：所以這次阻止陸團不是因為所謂的反間諜法嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：不、不、不，那是其中一個因素。"],["高金委員素梅：所以我不接受這個部分。這個很早就有了，不是因為這一次6月的原因……"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有，剛剛徐委員有講……"],["高金委員素梅：所以外界質疑你們這次為什麼會片面宣布，你們的法律基礎到底是什麼，好了，我們今天終於看到了，我們的觀光署是說找到法律依據了，這個法律依據是發展觀光條例第五十三條第一項，以及旅行業管理規則第四十九條第十九款，因為這樣子的法律因素，所以對旅行業者你們就必須負管理監督之責，然後你們必須要有損害國家利益這樣子的概念，所以觀光署就事前通知我們的旅行業者說：你要保護國家利益，所以你就必須暫停。","請主委休息一下，我們請一下交通部。","請問一下交通部，不管是次長回答也好、副署長回答也好，我們的旅行業者組團到大陸，到底破壞了國家利益的哪一個方面，你們要用這樣子的條例來告訴我們的旅行業者？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，危害國家利益是綜合考慮，包含剛剛報告的……"],["高金委員素梅：什麼樣的綜合考慮？我今天只看到你說逆差的問題啊！"],["林次長國顯：逆差是一項……"],["高金委員素梅：我現在就告訴你，如果你的回答還是逆差問題的話，我找到日本觀光局公布的數據：日本第2季臺灣觀光客的人均消費是17.68萬日圓，以3月3日的匯率來計算，相當於新臺幣3萬7,192元，去年臺灣人去日本旅遊大概多少錢你知道嗎？一千多億耶！然後我們去大陸只有800億。按照你們發展觀光條例第五十三條規定的「損害國家利益」、你剛剛所謂的逆差，交通部是不是應該要禁止臺灣旅行社組團到日本去呢？是不是也應該這樣？"],["林次長國顯：跟委員報告，這……"],["高金委員素梅：如果你們的概念是如此的話。"],["林次長國顯：本質上是日本政府並沒有禁止他們的國人來臺旅遊，是因為……"],["高金委員素梅：但是如果你用逆差這樣的概念來說，這個逆差更大啊！"],["林次長國顯：如果政府的態度是開放的，這就看……"],["高金委員素梅：好啦，所以你不能講逆差嘛！"],["林次長國顯：逆差是一部分。"],["高金委員素梅：所以你就不應該把逆差列為國家利益嘛！對不對？"],["林次長國顯：整體產業的利益。"],["高金委員素梅：如果你是用國家利益的話，這樣子的逆差日本更多啊！如果是國家利益，你們應該有效提升這個部分，而不是用國家利益、用你們的觀光團體來阻止我們陸團去嘛！所以我也不接受逆差的說法。"],["林次長國顯：跟委員報告……"],["高金委員素梅：因此你也不用再回答我了！","陸委會和交通部禁止臺灣旅遊業者組團去大陸觀光，我要問的事情請主委也上台一下，這個決策過程到底是什麼？有沒有會議紀錄？因為你們今天送來的3份報告好像都是講這3個，我要請問你，這個決策過程有沒有會議紀錄？是陸委會自己決定的，還是行政院跨部會決定的？"],["邱主任委員太三：在去年的8月間……"],["高金委員素梅：是行政院跨部會嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：應該是跨部會的，就是剛剛也提到了，因為……"],["高金委員素梅：那跨部會的成員有哪些？"],["邱主任委員太三：剛剛他有提到、報告裡面有提到，有我們陸委會、交通部跟經濟部，因為我們還涉及商務……"],["高金委員素梅：國安有沒有進來？"],["邱主任委員太三：當然，其他相關單位……"],["高金委員素梅：最後拍板決定要暫停組團去大陸，到底是國安會的決策、蔡英文總統的決策，還是520要就任的賴清德總統的決策？"],["邱主任委員太三：去年8月的時候，他應該在忙著選舉，沒有管這件事情。"],["高金委員素梅：所以你的意思是說，去年8月的時候賴清德總統不管這件事情，但是您剛剛在這邊宣布、就你的感覺好像是說來這邊觀光會影響我們的選舉，好像選舉也在你們的考慮之中耶！"],["邱主任委員太三：不是、不是，剛剛牛委員提到的是11月的那件事情，那個時候國台辦……"],["高金委員素梅：喔，OK，所以讓你有時間澄清一下。"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["高金委員素梅：所以您再講一下，行政院的跨部會有哪些？"],["邱主任委員太三：我們討論完了就說，這3個部會……"],["高金委員素梅：有哪些？有陸委會……"],["邱主任委員太三：陸委會、交通部跟經濟部，還有一些相關的比如……"],["高金委員素梅：陸委會、交通部跟經濟部，相關是誰啊？再講一下。"],["邱主任委員太三：國安單位，比如說移民署也好或者是國安局也好。"],["高金委員素梅：因為今天的會議，我請你們報告的名稱就是決策的內容，你們今天也沒有告訴我，好不好？因為我的時間有限，今天專題報告是決策過程，但是我在你們三個單位裡面沒有看到決策過程，然後做了這個決策之後到底有沒有做過全面的損害評估，有沒有？今天的報告也沒有看到。"],["邱主任委員太三：對啦！基本上把結論都已經告訴各位了。"],["高金委員素梅：沒有啊！影響評估、損害評估。"],["邱主任委員太三：第一個就是不對等……"],["高金委員素梅：你只有講逆差。"],["邱主任委員太三：第二個實質的利益影響多少，第三個其他的部分包括剛剛提到的，對不對？"],["高金委員素梅：這個損害評估不僅僅是這三個大項，還有國內的損害評估啊！"],["邱主任委員太三：對、對、對！"],["高金委員素梅：你們沒有啊，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：剛剛不是提出那個數據嗎？"],["高金委員素梅：你們在報告裡面沒有提出，如果今天沒有委員在這邊質詢，是不是就不提出了？"],["邱主任委員太三：8月是要開放，所以原則上、基本上是朝正向的方向去理解，但是一直發展到2月6號……"],["高金委員素梅：好，主委，我時間到了，我今天就我在這邊質詢的立場下一個最後的結論，我的結論就是說你們這樣粗糙的政策，我認為就像我昨天的總質詢一樣，不管我們的政府做了哪一些錯誤的政策，你們都不願意收回，我覺得就是故意的，這個故意是讓我們旅行業者當作兩岸對抗的炮灰，我覺得這樣子不妥啦！好不好？謝謝。"],["邱主任委員太三：委員，我想我們也有很多的委員可以跟對岸反映……"],["高金委員素梅：我認為不妥。"],["邱主任委員太三：他們如果希望大家能夠更加和諧的交流，我覺得……"],["高金委員素梅：主委，這也是你的工作，不要忘記。"],["邱主任委員太三：對，我們也努力了。"],["高金委員素梅：我們大家儘量努力，好不好？"],["邱主任委員太三：共同努力。"],["高金委員素梅：尤其是您，您更重要啊！好嗎？謝謝你今天的質詢，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝高金委員，請相關的單位針對本案的決策過程提供相關的書面資料以及衝擊影響評估，並提供給本會委員以及高金委員做參考，以上。"],["主席（高金委員素梅）：好，我們繼續請黃捷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-3","speakers":["高金素梅","徐欣瑩","王美惠","吳琪銘","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","張智倫","丁學忠","麥玉珍","鄭天財Sra 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44.961, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"鐘\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"簡\"}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 44.961, \"end\": 45.041, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 45.041, \"end\": 45.181, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 45.181, \"end\": 45.201, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 47.323, \"end\": 71.075, \"text\": \"我們如果回顧比較長的歷史來看大概民進黨執政的時候他大概都以反突做優先那如果國民黨執政的時候他就希望統一做優先大概在這兩個裡面做主軸上的區分那所以呢我剛剛也提到就是說我們也來理解一下他是不是跟過去一樣或者是他有特別的用意這就是我剛剛講說我現在沒有辦法據下論斷\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 47.323, \"end\": 47.443, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 47.443, \"end\": 47.703, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 47.703, \"end\": 48.344, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 48.344, \"end\": 48.804, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"顧\"}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 48.804, \"end\": 49.404, \"score\": 0.787}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 49.404, \"end\": 49.724, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"歷\"}, {\"word\": \"史\", \"start\": 49.724, \"end\": 50.105, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 50.105, \"end\": 50.925, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 50.925, \"end\": 51.025, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"概\", \"start\": 51.025, \"end\": 51.205, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 51.205, \"end\": 51.865, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"執\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 51.865, \"end\": 52.026, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 52.026, \"end\": 52.286, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 52.286, \"end\": 52.526, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 52.526, \"end\": 52.726, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 52.726, \"end\": 52.846, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"概\", \"start\": 52.846, \"end\": 53.006, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 53.006, \"end\": 53.166, 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70.735, \"score\": 0.695}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 70.735, \"end\": 70.755, \"score\": 0.025}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 70.755, \"end\": 70.835, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 70.835, \"end\": 70.855, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 70.855, \"end\": 70.975, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 70.975, \"end\": 70.995, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 70.995, \"end\": 71.055, \"score\": 0.46}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 71.055, \"end\": 71.075, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"斷\"}]}, {\"start\": 73.456, \"end\": 95.274, \"text\": \"所以你們根本沒有跟著這個所謂的實事的態度趕快做一個因應的措施你剛剛講的對不起對不起主委你剛剛講到的這個部分都是意識形態的部分今天您是全民的陸委會主委我是全民選出來的立法委員我們不應該站在哪一個執政黨的面前來談論國家安全的問題還有全台灣2300萬人民安全的問題\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 73.456, \"end\": 73.536, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 73.536, \"end\": 73.596, \"score\": 0.632}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 73.596, \"end\": 73.836, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"根\", \"start\": 73.836, \"end\": 73.997, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 73.997, \"end\": 74.117, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 74.117, \"end\": 74.237, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 74.237, \"end\": 74.397, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 74.397, \"end\": 74.757, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"著\", \"start\": 74.757, \"end\": 75.017, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 75.017, \"end\": 75.298, \"score\": 0.759}, {\"word\": \"謂\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 75.298, \"end\": 75.478, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 75.478, \"end\": 75.778, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 75.778, \"end\": 76.298, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"態\"}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 76.298, \"end\": 76.719, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"趕\"}, {\"word\": \"快\", \"start\": 76.719, \"end\": 76.899, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 76.899, \"end\": 77.079, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 77.079, \"end\": 77.479, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 77.479, \"end\": 77.599, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 77.599, \"end\": 77.78, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"措\", \"start\": 77.78, \"end\": 78.04, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"施\", \"start\": 78.04, \"end\": 78.56, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 78.56, \"end\": 78.74, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 78.74, \"end\": 79.241, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 79.241, \"end\": 79.661, \"score\": 0.771}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 79.661, \"end\": 80.262, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", 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\"start\": 87.688, \"end\": 88.068, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 88.068, \"end\": 88.228, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 88.228, \"end\": 88.428, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 88.428, \"end\": 88.608, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 88.608, \"end\": 89.049, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"選\"}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 89.049, \"end\": 89.409, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 89.409, \"end\": 89.569, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 89.569, \"end\": 89.769, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 89.769, \"end\": 89.949, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 89.949, \"end\": 90.81, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 90.81, \"end\": 91.19, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 91.19, \"end\": 91.811, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"站\", \"start\": 91.811, \"end\": 92.031, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 92.031, \"end\": 92.231, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"哪\", \"start\": 92.231, \"end\": 92.431, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 92.431, \"end\": 92.912, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"執\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 92.912, \"end\": 93.332, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 93.332, \"end\": 93.432, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 93.432, \"end\": 93.452, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 93.452, \"end\": 93.632, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"談\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 93.632, \"end\": 93.652, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 93.652, \"end\": 93.672, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 93.672, \"end\": 93.812, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 93.812, \"end\": 93.832, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 689.402, \"end\": 689.642, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 689.642, \"end\": 689.962, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 689.962, \"end\": 690.302, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 690.302, \"end\": 690.803, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 690.803, \"end\": 690.823, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 691.643, \"end\": 692.004, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 692.004, \"end\": 692.124, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 692.124, \"end\": 692.264, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 692.264, \"end\": 692.445, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 692.445, \"end\": 692.465, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,310 --> 00:00:02,358\n邱太三主委有請\n\n2\n00:00:06,875 --> 00:00:28,986\n主委您好,辛苦了。最近真的非常多的事情造成您的工作業務量非常的大。本來之前就沒有什麼樣的溝通管道,現在更是惡意螺旋一直往上不斷的增加升高。然後我們看到昨天李強在人大報告\n\n3\n00:00:30,347 --> 00:00:45,201\n他指體統一但去年他曾經講過和平統一和平這兩個字被消失了這是不是代表對台灣他們的態度更強硬因為今天還有其他的報告我希望您用一分鐘來簡單回答我\n\n4\n00:00:47,323 --> 00:01:11,075\n我們如果回顧比較長的歷史來看大概民進黨執政的時候他大概都以反突做優先那如果國民黨執政的時候他就希望統一做優先大概在這兩個裡面做主軸上的區分那所以呢我剛剛也提到就是說我們也來理解一下他是不是跟過去一樣或者是他有特別的用意這就是我剛剛講說我現在沒有辦法據下論斷\n\n5\n00:01:13,456 --> 00:01:35,274\n所以你們根本沒有跟著這個所謂的實事的態度趕快做一個因應的措施你剛剛講的對不起對不起主委你剛剛講到的這個部分都是意識形態的部分今天您是全民的陸委會主委我是全民選出來的立法委員我們不應該站在哪一個執政黨的面前來談論國家安全的問題還有全台灣2300萬人民安全的問題\n\n6\n00:01:39,697 --> 00:02:02,177\n所以本席建議就是現在的兩岸的這種惡意的螺旋持續的升高非常的嚴重其實這不是好事情對於政府所謂的政府就是全民的政府不是哪一個政黨的政府不是嗎所以對於政府你們應該是有責任要來降低這樣的危機這才是全民的利益對不對\n\n7\n00:02:10,641 --> 00:02:21,966\n我們好不容易等到新冠疫情結束了之後我們去年11月交通部原本規劃在今年春節就要恢復旅行社組團副旅遊的具體內容\n\n8\n00:02:23,166 --> 00:02:37,449\n按照不管是陸委會的報告也好交通部的報告也好觀光署的報告也好你們總共有三個重點第一個重點就是什麼因為逆差的問題對吧第二個就是\n\n9\n00:02:38,575 --> 00:02:38,995\n反間諜法反間諜法\n\n10\n00:02:59,910 --> 00:03:28,106\n沒有有效的機制可以處理這樣的因素所以你們就暫停了這個赴陸組團的這個部分那我就覺得有一點納悶就是這個納悶就想要問一下你們所謂的反間諜法的原因不是在現在就有嘛對不對那6月前到大陸去的不管是組團不管是自由行的這些人難道就沒有所謂的人身安全風險嗎\n\n11\n00:03:29,967 --> 00:03:57,115\n所以委員我們的陸委會多次在我們的例行記者會裡面一再的糟糕國人大陸他整個法律的制定所涉及到的不是只有這些啦如果更早期包括他的所謂的數據安全法你在那邊如果上網上他們的這個相關的單位的數據也可能會涉及到相關的法制沒有對不起所以我必須要大概在兩個禮拜一次的例行記者會一定會提醒國人\n\n12\n00:03:58,415 --> 00:04:19,700\n大陸整體的情勢第二個我們大概也會簡單的敘述那你說沒有有效的機制對不起你上面寫說沒有有效機制可以處理啊那你是不是要從這個有效的機制趕快來而不是要禁止我們國人出去啊不是嗎委員真的講得很好所以我們希望他跟往前的協議那你變成有效的機制是什麼我們本來就有機制在就像我剛剛講的那有效那麼現在有效的機制是什麼\n\n13\n00:04:25,962 --> 00:04:29,246\n所以不是這次阻止鹿團不是因為所謂的反借點法嗎所以我不\n\n14\n00:04:45,562 --> 00:05:04,931\n這很早就有了,很早就有了,不是因為這一次6月這個人馬,所以外界一直因為為什麼你們這次會片面的宣布你的法律基礎到底是什麼,好了我們今天終於看到了,我們的觀光署是說找到法律依據了\n\n15\n00:05:05,831 --> 00:05:06,312\n發言委員：高金素梅\n\n16\n00:05:25,612 --> 00:05:27,295\n請主委您休息一下我們請一下交通部\n\n17\n00:05:44,372 --> 00:06:07,227\n請暫停我的時間請問一下交通部不管是次長回答也好、副署長回答也好我們的旅行業者組團到大陸到底他破壞了我們國家利益的哪一個方面你要用這樣子的條例來告訴我們的旅行業者\n\n18\n00:06:08,532 --> 00:06:25,241\n維哈國家利益是綜合考慮什麼樣的綜合考慮我今天只看到你說逆差的問題啊我現在就告訴你如果你的回答還是逆差的問題我找到日本觀光局公布的數據我們看一下按照這個數據日本這個僅僅第二季的人均消費\n\n19\n00:06:28,022 --> 00:06:33,584\n17.68萬日元也就是相當於3月3號匯率新台幣37192塊來計算的話去年台灣人去日本旅遊的人數大概多少錢你知道嗎一千多億耶\n\n20\n00:06:43,587 --> 00:06:44,208\n日本政府並沒有禁止他的國人來台旅遊\n\n21\n00:07:08,727 --> 00:07:23,547\n但是如果你用逆差的這樣的概念來說這樣逆差的話更大啊如果政府的態度是開放的那這個就看好了所以你不能講逆差嘛所以你就不應該把逆差列為國家安全嘛\n\n22\n00:07:24,328 --> 00:07:46,800\n國家利益國家利益嘛對不對如果你是用國家利益的話這樣的逆差的話基本是更多啊所以你們應該如果是國家利益那你們應該有效要來提升這個部分而不是用國家利益用你們的觀光條例來阻止我們陸團去嘛所以我也不接受逆差的問題因此你也不用再回答我了齁\n\n23\n00:07:47,820 --> 00:08:00,868\n陸委會和交通部禁止臺灣旅遊業者組團去大陸觀光．我要問的是．請主委也上台一下．這個決策過程到底是什麼．有沒有會議記錄．因為你們今天來的這個三個報告的決策會議過程．好像都是講這三個．我要請問你這個決策過程有沒有會議記錄．\n\n24\n00:08:10,143 --> 00:08:28,348\n是你陸委會自己決定的還是行政院跨部會決定的在去年的8月間是行政院跨部會嗎跨部會就是剛剛有提到了那跨部會的成員有哪些剛剛他有提到報告裡面有提到有我們陸委會交通部跟經濟部因為\n\n25\n00:08:29,608 --> 00:08:30,429\n昨年8月的時候他應該在忙著選舉沒有管這些事情\n\n26\n00:08:55,487 --> 00:09:01,951\n所以去年8月的時候你的意思說在清德總統不管這件事情但是您剛剛在這邊說不就你的覺得好像說來這邊觀光然後影響我們的選舉這好像選舉也是在你們的考慮之中嗎?所以您再講一下這個行政院的跨部會有哪些?有哪些?有哪些?有陸委會?\n\n27\n00:09:22,982 --> 00:09:36,453\n陸委會、交通部、跟經濟部那還有幾些相關的﹐相關是誰啊﹐國安單位嘛﹐比如說移民署也好啦﹐或者是這個﹐因為你今天的會議我今天請你們報告的這個名稱就是決策的內容你們今天也沒有告訴我好不好因為我的時間有限\n\n28\n00:09:44,059 --> 00:10:01,430\n今天專題報告是決策過程但是我們在你們三個單位裡面沒有看到決策過程然後做了這個決策之後到底有沒有做過全面的損害評估有沒有今天的報告也沒有看到\n\n29\n00:10:02,845 --> 00:10:18,473\n對啦,那基本上把結論都已經告訴各位了嘛沒有啊,影響評估、損害評估第一個不對等嘛,第二個呢,實際的利益影響多少嘛第三個其他的部分嘛,包括剛剛提到的嘛,對不對這個損害評估不僅僅是這個三個大項,還有國內的損害評估啊你們沒有啊,對不對剛剛不是剛剛提出的那個數據嗎\n\n30\n00:10:26,497 --> 00:10:27,017\n主委時間到了齁\n\n31\n00:10:42,543 --> 00:10:43,184\n高金素梅議員\n\n32\n00:11:04,503 --> 00:11:30,823\n是讓我們旅行業者當作兩岸的對抗的砲灰我覺得這樣子不妥啦好不好我想我們也有很多的委員可以我認為不妥這個希望大家能夠更加和諧的交流我覺得這個是你的工作不要忘記我們也努力了好不好我們盡量大家努力好不好尤其是您喔您更重要啊好嗎\n\n33\n00:11:31,643 --> 00:11:32,465\n好謝謝您今天的質詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n310\t2358\t邱太三主委有請\n6875\t28986\t主委您好,辛苦了。最近真的非常多的事情造成您的工作業務量非常的大。本來之前就沒有什麼樣的溝通管道,現在更是惡意螺旋一直往上不斷的增加升高。然後我們看到昨天李強在人大報告\n30347\t45201\t他指體統一但去年他曾經講過和平統一和平這兩個字被消失了這是不是代表對台灣他們的態度更強硬因為今天還有其他的報告我希望您用一分鐘來簡單回答我\n47323\t71075\t我們如果回顧比較長的歷史來看大概民進黨執政的時候他大概都以反突做優先那如果國民黨執政的時候他就希望統一做優先大概在這兩個裡面做主軸上的區分那所以呢我剛剛也提到就是說我們也來理解一下他是不是跟過去一樣或者是他有特別的用意這就是我剛剛講說我現在沒有辦法據下論斷\n73456\t95274\t所以你們根本沒有跟著這個所謂的實事的態度趕快做一個因應的措施你剛剛講的對不起對不起主委你剛剛講到的這個部分都是意識形態的部分今天您是全民的陸委會主委我是全民選出來的立法委員我們不應該站在哪一個執政黨的面前來談論國家安全的問題還有全台灣2300萬人民安全的問題\n99697\t122177\t所以本席建議就是現在的兩岸的這種惡意的螺旋持續的升高非常的嚴重其實這不是好事情對於政府所謂的政府就是全民的政府不是哪一個政黨的政府不是嗎所以對於政府你們應該是有責任要來降低這樣的危機這才是全民的利益對不對\n130641\t141966\t我們好不容易等到新冠疫情結束了之後我們去年11月交通部原本規劃在今年春節就要恢復旅行社組團副旅遊的具體內容\n143166\t157449\t按照不管是陸委會的報告也好交通部的報告也好觀光署的報告也好你們總共有三個重點第一個重點就是什麼因為逆差的問題對吧第二個就是\n158575\t158995\t反間諜法反間諜法\n179910\t208106\t沒有有效的機制可以處理這樣的因素所以你們就暫停了這個赴陸組團的這個部分那我就覺得有一點納悶就是這個納悶就想要問一下你們所謂的反間諜法的原因不是在現在就有嘛 對不對那6月前到大陸去的不管是組團不管是自由行的這些人難道就沒有所謂的人身安全風險嗎\n209967\t237115\t所以委員我們的陸委會多次在我們的例行記者會裡面一再的糟糕國人大陸他整個法律的制定所涉及到的不是只有這些啦如果更早期包括他的所謂的數據安全法你在那邊如果上網上他們的這個相關的單位的數據也可能會涉及到相關的法制沒有對不起所以我必須要大概在兩個禮拜一次的例行記者會一定會提醒國人\n238415\t259700\t大陸整體的情勢第二個我們大概也會簡單的敘述那你說沒有有效的機制對不起你上面寫說沒有有效機制可以處理啊那你是不是要從這個有效的機制趕快來而不是要禁止我們國人出去啊不是嗎委員真的講得很好所以我們希望他跟往前的協議那你變成有效的機制是什麼我們本來就有機制在就像我剛剛講的那有效 那麼現在有效的機制是什麼\n265962\t269246\t所以不是這次阻止鹿團不是因為所謂的反借點法嗎所以我不\n285562\t304931\t這很早就有了,很早就有了,不是因為這一次6月這個人馬,所以外界一直因為為什麼你們這次會片面的宣布你的法律基礎到底是什麼,好了我們今天終於看到了,我們的觀光署是說找到法律依據了\n305831\t306312\t發言委員：高金素梅\n325612\t327295\t請主委您休息一下我們請一下交通部\n344372\t367227\t請暫停我的時間請問一下交通部不管是次長回答也好、副署長回答也好我們的旅行業者組團到大陸到底他破壞了我們國家利益的哪一個方面你要用這樣子的條例來告訴我們的旅行業者\n368532\t385241\t維哈國家利益是綜合考慮什麼樣的綜合考慮我今天只看到你說逆差的問題啊我現在就告訴你如果你的回答還是逆差的問題我找到日本觀光局公布的數據我們看一下按照這個數據日本這個僅僅第二季的人均消費\n388022\t393584\t17.68萬日元也就是相當於3月3號匯率新台幣37192塊來計算的話去年台灣人去日本旅遊的人數大概多少錢你知道嗎一千多億耶\n403587\t404208\t日本政府並沒有禁止他的國人來台旅遊\n428727\t443547\t但是如果你用逆差的這樣的概念來說這樣逆差的話更大啊如果政府的態度是開放的那這個就看好了所以你不能講逆差嘛所以你就不應該把逆差列為國家安全嘛\n444328\t466800\t國家利益國家利益嘛 對不對如果你是用國家利益的話 這樣的逆差的話基本是更多啊所以你們應該如果是國家利益那你們應該有效要來提升這個部分而不是用國家利益用你們的觀光條例來阻止我們陸團去嘛所以我也不接受逆差的問題因此你也不用再回答我了齁\n467820\t480868\t陸委會和交通部禁止臺灣旅遊業者組團去大陸觀光．我要問的是．請主委也上台一下．這個決策過程到底是什麼．有沒有會議記錄．因為你們今天來的這個三個報告的決策會議過程．好像都是講這三個．我要請問你這個決策過程有沒有會議記錄．\n490143\t508348\t是你陸委會自己決定的還是行政院跨部會決定的在去年的8月間是行政院跨部會嗎跨部會就是剛剛有提到了那跨部會的成員有哪些剛剛他有提到報告裡面有提到有我們陸委會交通部跟經濟部因為\n509608\t510429\t昨年8月的時候他應該在忙著選舉沒有管這些事情\n535487\t541951\t所以去年8月的時候你的意思說在清德總統不管這件事情但是您剛剛在這邊說不就你的覺得好像說來這邊觀光然後影響我們的選舉這好像選舉也是在你們的考慮之中嗎?所以您再講一下這個行政院的跨部會有哪些?有哪些?有哪些?有陸委會?\n562982\t576453\t陸委會、交通部、跟經濟部那還有幾些相關的﹐相關是誰啊﹐國安單位嘛﹐比如說移民署也好啦﹐或者是這個﹐因為你今天的會議我今天請你們報告的這個名稱就是決策的內容你們今天也沒有告訴我好不好因為我的時間有限\n584059\t601430\t今天專題報告是決策過程但是我們在你們三個單位裡面沒有看到決策過程然後做了這個決策之後到底有沒有做過全面的損害評估有沒有今天的報告也沒有看到\n602845\t618473\t對啦,那基本上把結論都已經告訴各位了嘛沒有啊,影響評估、損害評估第一個不對等嘛,第二個呢,實際的利益影響多少嘛第三個其他的部分嘛,包括剛剛提到的嘛,對不對這個損害評估不僅僅是這個三個大項,還有國內的損害評估啊你們沒有啊,對不對剛剛不是剛剛提出的那個數據嗎\n626497\t627017\t主委時間到了齁\n642543\t643184\t高金素梅議員\n664503\t690823\t是讓我們旅行業者當作兩岸的對抗的砲灰我覺得這樣子不妥啦好不好我想我們也有很多的委員可以我認為不妥這個希望大家能夠更加和諧的交流我覺得這個是你的工作不要忘記我們也努力了好不好我們盡量大家努力好不好尤其是您喔您更重要啊好嗎\n691643\t692465\t好 謝謝您今天的質詢\n","txt":"邱太三主委有請\n主委您好,辛苦了。最近真的非常多的事情造成您的工作業務量非常的大。本來之前就沒有什麼樣的溝通管道,現在更是惡意螺旋一直往上不斷的增加升高。然後我們看到昨天李強在人大報告\n他指體統一但去年他曾經講過和平統一和平這兩個字被消失了這是不是代表對台灣他們的態度更強硬因為今天還有其他的報告我希望您用一分鐘來簡單回答我\n我們如果回顧比較長的歷史來看大概民進黨執政的時候他大概都以反突做優先那如果國民黨執政的時候他就希望統一做優先大概在這兩個裡面做主軸上的區分那所以呢我剛剛也提到就是說我們也來理解一下他是不是跟過去一樣或者是他有特別的用意這就是我剛剛講說我現在沒有辦法據下論斷\n所以你們根本沒有跟著這個所謂的實事的態度趕快做一個因應的措施你剛剛講的對不起對不起主委你剛剛講到的這個部分都是意識形態的部分今天您是全民的陸委會主委我是全民選出來的立法委員我們不應該站在哪一個執政黨的面前來談論國家安全的問題還有全台灣2300萬人民安全的問題\n所以本席建議就是現在的兩岸的這種惡意的螺旋持續的升高非常的嚴重其實這不是好事情對於政府所謂的政府就是全民的政府不是哪一個政黨的政府不是嗎所以對於政府你們應該是有責任要來降低這樣的危機這才是全民的利益對不對\n我們好不容易等到新冠疫情結束了之後我們去年11月交通部原本規劃在今年春節就要恢復旅行社組團副旅遊的具體內容\n按照不管是陸委會的報告也好交通部的報告也好觀光署的報告也好你們總共有三個重點第一個重點就是什麼因為逆差的問題對吧第二個就是\n反間諜法反間諜法\n沒有有效的機制可以處理這樣的因素所以你們就暫停了這個赴陸組團的這個部分那我就覺得有一點納悶就是這個納悶就想要問一下你們所謂的反間諜法的原因不是在現在就有嘛 對不對那6月前到大陸去的不管是組團不管是自由行的這些人難道就沒有所謂的人身安全風險嗎\n所以委員我們的陸委會多次在我們的例行記者會裡面一再的糟糕國人大陸他整個法律的制定所涉及到的不是只有這些啦如果更早期包括他的所謂的數據安全法你在那邊如果上網上他們的這個相關的單位的數據也可能會涉及到相關的法制沒有對不起所以我必須要大概在兩個禮拜一次的例行記者會一定會提醒國人\n大陸整體的情勢第二個我們大概也會簡單的敘述那你說沒有有效的機制對不起你上面寫說沒有有效機制可以處理啊那你是不是要從這個有效的機制趕快來而不是要禁止我們國人出去啊不是嗎委員真的講得很好所以我們希望他跟往前的協議那你變成有效的機制是什麼我們本來就有機制在就像我剛剛講的那有效 那麼現在有效的機制是什麼\n所以不是這次阻止鹿團不是因為所謂的反借點法嗎所以我不\n這很早就有了,很早就有了,不是因為這一次6月這個人馬,所以外界一直因為為什麼你們這次會片面的宣布你的法律基礎到底是什麼,好了我們今天終於看到了,我們的觀光署是說找到法律依據了\n發言委員：高金素梅\n請主委您休息一下我們請一下交通部\n請暫停我的時間請問一下交通部不管是次長回答也好、副署長回答也好我們的旅行業者組團到大陸到底他破壞了我們國家利益的哪一個方面你要用這樣子的條例來告訴我們的旅行業者\n維哈國家利益是綜合考慮什麼樣的綜合考慮我今天只看到你說逆差的問題啊我現在就告訴你如果你的回答還是逆差的問題我找到日本觀光局公布的數據我們看一下按照這個數據日本這個僅僅第二季的人均消費\n17.68萬日元也就是相當於3月3號匯率新台幣37192塊來計算的話去年台灣人去日本旅遊的人數大概多少錢你知道嗎一千多億耶\n日本政府並沒有禁止他的國人來台旅遊\n但是如果你用逆差的這樣的概念來說這樣逆差的話更大啊如果政府的態度是開放的那這個就看好了所以你不能講逆差嘛所以你就不應該把逆差列為國家安全嘛\n國家利益國家利益嘛 對不對如果你是用國家利益的話 這樣的逆差的話基本是更多啊所以你們應該如果是國家利益那你們應該有效要來提升這個部分而不是用國家利益用你們的觀光條例來阻止我們陸團去嘛所以我也不接受逆差的問題因此你也不用再回答我了齁\n陸委會和交通部禁止臺灣旅遊業者組團去大陸觀光．我要問的是．請主委也上台一下．這個決策過程到底是什麼．有沒有會議記錄．因為你們今天來的這個三個報告的決策會議過程．好像都是講這三個．我要請問你這個決策過程有沒有會議記錄．\n是你陸委會自己決定的還是行政院跨部會決定的在去年的8月間是行政院跨部會嗎跨部會就是剛剛有提到了那跨部會的成員有哪些剛剛他有提到報告裡面有提到有我們陸委會交通部跟經濟部因為\n昨年8月的時候他應該在忙著選舉沒有管這些事情\n所以去年8月的時候你的意思說在清德總統不管這件事情但是您剛剛在這邊說不就你的覺得好像說來這邊觀光然後影響我們的選舉這好像選舉也是在你們的考慮之中嗎?所以您再講一下這個行政院的跨部會有哪些?有哪些?有哪些?有陸委會?\n陸委會、交通部、跟經濟部那還有幾些相關的﹐相關是誰啊﹐國安單位嘛﹐比如說移民署也好啦﹐或者是這個﹐因為你今天的會議我今天請你們報告的這個名稱就是決策的內容你們今天也沒有告訴我好不好因為我的時間有限\n今天專題報告是決策過程但是我們在你們三個單位裡面沒有看到決策過程然後做了這個決策之後到底有沒有做過全面的損害評估有沒有今天的報告也沒有看到\n對啦,那基本上把結論都已經告訴各位了嘛沒有啊,影響評估、損害評估第一個不對等嘛,第二個呢,實際的利益影響多少嘛第三個其他的部分嘛,包括剛剛提到的嘛,對不對這個損害評估不僅僅是這個三個大項,還有國內的損害評估啊你們沒有啊,對不對剛剛不是剛剛提出的那個數據嗎\n主委時間到了齁\n高金素梅議員\n是讓我們旅行業者當作兩岸的對抗的砲灰我覺得這樣子不妥啦好不好我想我們也有很多的委員可以我認為不妥這個希望大家能夠更加和諧的交流我覺得這個是你的工作不要忘記我們也努力了好不好我們盡量大家努力好不好尤其是您喔您更重要啊好嗎\n好 謝謝您今天的質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.310 --> 00:02.358\n邱太三主委有請\n\n00:06.875 --> 00:28.986\n主委您好,辛苦了。最近真的非常多的事情造成您的工作業務量非常的大。本來之前就沒有什麼樣的溝通管道,現在更是惡意螺旋一直往上不斷的增加升高。然後我們看到昨天李強在人大報告\n\n00:30.347 --> 00:45.201\n他指體統一但去年他曾經講過和平統一和平這兩個字被消失了這是不是代表對台灣他們的態度更強硬因為今天還有其他的報告我希望您用一分鐘來簡單回答我\n\n00:47.323 --> 01:11.075\n我們如果回顧比較長的歷史來看大概民進黨執政的時候他大概都以反突做優先那如果國民黨執政的時候他就希望統一做優先大概在這兩個裡面做主軸上的區分那所以呢我剛剛也提到就是說我們也來理解一下他是不是跟過去一樣或者是他有特別的用意這就是我剛剛講說我現在沒有辦法據下論斷\n\n01:13.456 --> 01:35.274\n所以你們根本沒有跟著這個所謂的實事的態度趕快做一個因應的措施你剛剛講的對不起對不起主委你剛剛講到的這個部分都是意識形態的部分今天您是全民的陸委會主委我是全民選出來的立法委員我們不應該站在哪一個執政黨的面前來談論國家安全的問題還有全台灣2300萬人民安全的問題\n\n01:39.697 --> 02:02.177\n所以本席建議就是現在的兩岸的這種惡意的螺旋持續的升高非常的嚴重其實這不是好事情對於政府所謂的政府就是全民的政府不是哪一個政黨的政府不是嗎所以對於政府你們應該是有責任要來降低這樣的危機這才是全民的利益對不對\n\n02:10.641 --> 02:21.966\n我們好不容易等到新冠疫情結束了之後我們去年11月交通部原本規劃在今年春節就要恢復旅行社組團副旅遊的具體內容\n\n02:23.166 --> 02:37.449\n按照不管是陸委會的報告也好交通部的報告也好觀光署的報告也好你們總共有三個重點第一個重點就是什麼因為逆差的問題對吧第二個就是\n\n02:38.575 --> 02:38.995\n反間諜法反間諜法\n\n02:59.910 --> 03:28.106\n沒有有效的機制可以處理這樣的因素所以你們就暫停了這個赴陸組團的這個部分那我就覺得有一點納悶就是這個納悶就想要問一下你們所謂的反間諜法的原因不是在現在就有嘛對不對那6月前到大陸去的不管是組團不管是自由行的這些人難道就沒有所謂的人身安全風險嗎\n\n03:29.967 --> 03:57.115\n所以委員我們的陸委會多次在我們的例行記者會裡面一再的糟糕國人大陸他整個法律的制定所涉及到的不是只有這些啦如果更早期包括他的所謂的數據安全法你在那邊如果上網上他們的這個相關的單位的數據也可能會涉及到相關的法制沒有對不起所以我必須要大概在兩個禮拜一次的例行記者會一定會提醒國人\n\n03:58.415 --> 04:19.700\n大陸整體的情勢第二個我們大概也會簡單的敘述那你說沒有有效的機制對不起你上面寫說沒有有效機制可以處理啊那你是不是要從這個有效的機制趕快來而不是要禁止我們國人出去啊不是嗎委員真的講得很好所以我們希望他跟往前的協議那你變成有效的機制是什麼我們本來就有機制在就像我剛剛講的那有效那麼現在有效的機制是什麼\n\n04:25.962 --> 04:29.246\n所以不是這次阻止鹿團不是因為所謂的反借點法嗎所以我不\n\n04:45.562 --> 05:04.931\n這很早就有了,很早就有了,不是因為這一次6月這個人馬,所以外界一直因為為什麼你們這次會片面的宣布你的法律基礎到底是什麼,好了我們今天終於看到了,我們的觀光署是說找到法律依據了\n\n05:05.831 --> 05:06.312\n發言委員：高金素梅\n\n05:25.612 --> 05:27.295\n請主委您休息一下我們請一下交通部\n\n05:44.372 --> 06:07.227\n請暫停我的時間請問一下交通部不管是次長回答也好、副署長回答也好我們的旅行業者組團到大陸到底他破壞了我們國家利益的哪一個方面你要用這樣子的條例來告訴我們的旅行業者\n\n06:08.532 --> 06:25.241\n維哈國家利益是綜合考慮什麼樣的綜合考慮我今天只看到你說逆差的問題啊我現在就告訴你如果你的回答還是逆差的問題我找到日本觀光局公布的數據我們看一下按照這個數據日本這個僅僅第二季的人均消費\n\n06:28.022 --> 06:33.584\n17.68萬日元也就是相當於3月3號匯率新台幣37192塊來計算的話去年台灣人去日本旅遊的人數大概多少錢你知道嗎一千多億耶\n\n06:43.587 --> 06:44.208\n日本政府並沒有禁止他的國人來台旅遊\n\n07:08.727 --> 07:23.547\n但是如果你用逆差的這樣的概念來說這樣逆差的話更大啊如果政府的態度是開放的那這個就看好了所以你不能講逆差嘛所以你就不應該把逆差列為國家安全嘛\n\n07:24.328 --> 07:46.800\n國家利益國家利益嘛對不對如果你是用國家利益的話這樣的逆差的話基本是更多啊所以你們應該如果是國家利益那你們應該有效要來提升這個部分而不是用國家利益用你們的觀光條例來阻止我們陸團去嘛所以我也不接受逆差的問題因此你也不用再回答我了齁\n\n07:47.820 --> 08:00.868\n陸委會和交通部禁止臺灣旅遊業者組團去大陸觀光．我要問的是．請主委也上台一下．這個決策過程到底是什麼．有沒有會議記錄．因為你們今天來的這個三個報告的決策會議過程．好像都是講這三個．我要請問你這個決策過程有沒有會議記錄．\n\n08:10.143 --> 08:28.348\n是你陸委會自己決定的還是行政院跨部會決定的在去年的8月間是行政院跨部會嗎跨部會就是剛剛有提到了那跨部會的成員有哪些剛剛他有提到報告裡面有提到有我們陸委會交通部跟經濟部因為\n\n08:29.608 --> 08:30.429\n昨年8月的時候他應該在忙著選舉沒有管這些事情\n\n08:55.487 --> 09:01.951\n所以去年8月的時候你的意思說在清德總統不管這件事情但是您剛剛在這邊說不就你的覺得好像說來這邊觀光然後影響我們的選舉這好像選舉也是在你們的考慮之中嗎?所以您再講一下這個行政院的跨部會有哪些?有哪些?有哪些?有陸委會?\n\n09:22.982 --> 09:36.453\n陸委會、交通部、跟經濟部那還有幾些相關的﹐相關是誰啊﹐國安單位嘛﹐比如說移民署也好啦﹐或者是這個﹐因為你今天的會議我今天請你們報告的這個名稱就是決策的內容你們今天也沒有告訴我好不好因為我的時間有限\n\n09:44.059 --> 10:01.430\n今天專題報告是決策過程但是我們在你們三個單位裡面沒有看到決策過程然後做了這個決策之後到底有沒有做過全面的損害評估有沒有今天的報告也沒有看到\n\n10:02.845 --> 10:18.473\n對啦,那基本上把結論都已經告訴各位了嘛沒有啊,影響評估、損害評估第一個不對等嘛,第二個呢,實際的利益影響多少嘛第三個其他的部分嘛,包括剛剛提到的嘛,對不對這個損害評估不僅僅是這個三個大項,還有國內的損害評估啊你們沒有啊,對不對剛剛不是剛剛提出的那個數據嗎\n\n10:26.497 --> 10:27.017\n主委時間到了齁\n\n10:42.543 --> 10:43.184\n高金素梅議員\n\n11:04.503 --> 11:30.823\n是讓我們旅行業者當作兩岸的對抗的砲灰我覺得這樣子不妥啦好不好我想我們也有很多的委員可以我認為不妥這個希望大家能夠更加和諧的交流我覺得這個是你的工作不要忘記我們也努力了好不好我們盡量大家努力好不好尤其是您喔您更重要啊好嗎\n\n11:31.643 --> 11:32.465\n好謝謝您今天的質詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.31,"end":2.358,"text":"邱太三主委有請"},{"start":6.875,"end":28.986,"text":"主委您好,辛苦了。最近真的非常多的事情造成您的工作業務量非常的大。本來之前就沒有什麼樣的溝通管道,現在更是惡意螺旋一直往上不斷的增加升高。然後我們看到昨天李強在人大報告"},{"start":30.347,"end":45.201,"text":"他指體統一但去年他曾經講過和平統一和平這兩個字被消失了這是不是代表對台灣他們的態度更強硬因為今天還有其他的報告我希望您用一分鐘來簡單回答我"},{"start":47.323,"end":71.075,"text":"我們如果回顧比較長的歷史來看大概民進黨執政的時候他大概都以反突做優先那如果國民黨執政的時候他就希望統一做優先大概在這兩個裡面做主軸上的區分那所以呢我剛剛也提到就是說我們也來理解一下他是不是跟過去一樣或者是他有特別的用意這就是我剛剛講說我現在沒有辦法據下論斷"},{"start":73.456,"end":95.274,"text":"所以你們根本沒有跟著這個所謂的實事的態度趕快做一個因應的措施你剛剛講的對不起對不起主委你剛剛講到的這個部分都是意識形態的部分今天您是全民的陸委會主委我是全民選出來的立法委員我們不應該站在哪一個執政黨的面前來談論國家安全的問題還有全台灣2300萬人民安全的問題"},{"start":99.697,"end":122.177,"text":"所以本席建議就是現在的兩岸的這種惡意的螺旋持續的升高非常的嚴重其實這不是好事情對於政府所謂的政府就是全民的政府不是哪一個政黨的政府不是嗎所以對於政府你們應該是有責任要來降低這樣的危機這才是全民的利益對不對"},{"start":130.641,"end":141.966,"text":"我們好不容易等到新冠疫情結束了之後我們去年11月交通部原本規劃在今年春節就要恢復旅行社組團副旅遊的具體內容"},{"start":143.166,"end":157.449,"text":"按照不管是陸委會的報告也好交通部的報告也好觀光署的報告也好你們總共有三個重點第一個重點就是什麼因為逆差的問題對吧第二個就是"},{"start":158.575,"end":158.995,"text":"反間諜法反間諜法"},{"start":179.91,"end":208.106,"text":"沒有有效的機制可以處理這樣的因素所以你們就暫停了這個赴陸組團的這個部分那我就覺得有一點納悶就是這個納悶就想要問一下你們所謂的反間諜法的原因不是在現在就有嘛 對不對那6月前到大陸去的不管是組團不管是自由行的這些人難道就沒有所謂的人身安全風險嗎"},{"start":209.967,"end":237.115,"text":"所以委員我們的陸委會多次在我們的例行記者會裡面一再的糟糕國人大陸他整個法律的制定所涉及到的不是只有這些啦如果更早期包括他的所謂的數據安全法你在那邊如果上網上他們的這個相關的單位的數據也可能會涉及到相關的法制沒有對不起所以我必須要大概在兩個禮拜一次的例行記者會一定會提醒國人"},{"start":238.415,"end":259.7,"text":"大陸整體的情勢第二個我們大概也會簡單的敘述那你說沒有有效的機制對不起你上面寫說沒有有效機制可以處理啊那你是不是要從這個有效的機制趕快來而不是要禁止我們國人出去啊不是嗎委員真的講得很好所以我們希望他跟往前的協議那你變成有效的機制是什麼我們本來就有機制在就像我剛剛講的那有效 那麼現在有效的機制是什麼"},{"start":265.962,"end":269.246,"text":"所以不是這次阻止鹿團不是因為所謂的反借點法嗎所以我不"},{"start":285.562,"end":304.931,"text":"這很早就有了,很早就有了,不是因為這一次6月這個人馬,所以外界一直因為為什麼你們這次會片面的宣布你的法律基礎到底是什麼,好了我們今天終於看到了,我們的觀光署是說找到法律依據了"},{"start":305.831,"end":306.312,"text":"發言委員：高金素梅"},{"start":325.612,"end":327.295,"text":"請主委您休息一下我們請一下交通部"},{"start":344.372,"end":367.227,"text":"請暫停我的時間請問一下交通部不管是次長回答也好、副署長回答也好我們的旅行業者組團到大陸到底他破壞了我們國家利益的哪一個方面你要用這樣子的條例來告訴我們的旅行業者"},{"start":368.532,"end":385.241,"text":"維哈國家利益是綜合考慮什麼樣的綜合考慮我今天只看到你說逆差的問題啊我現在就告訴你如果你的回答還是逆差的問題我找到日本觀光局公布的數據我們看一下按照這個數據日本這個僅僅第二季的人均消費"},{"start":388.022,"end":393.584,"text":"17.68萬日元也就是相當於3月3號匯率新台幣37192塊來計算的話去年台灣人去日本旅遊的人數大概多少錢你知道嗎一千多億耶"},{"start":403.587,"end":404.208,"text":"日本政府並沒有禁止他的國人來台旅遊"},{"start":428.727,"end":443.547,"text":"但是如果你用逆差的這樣的概念來說這樣逆差的話更大啊如果政府的態度是開放的那這個就看好了所以你不能講逆差嘛所以你就不應該把逆差列為國家安全嘛"},{"start":444.328,"end":466.8,"text":"國家利益國家利益嘛 對不對如果你是用國家利益的話 這樣的逆差的話基本是更多啊所以你們應該如果是國家利益那你們應該有效要來提升這個部分而不是用國家利益用你們的觀光條例來阻止我們陸團去嘛所以我也不接受逆差的問題因此你也不用再回答我了齁"},{"start":467.82,"end":480.868,"text":"陸委會和交通部禁止臺灣旅遊業者組團去大陸觀光．我要問的是．請主委也上台一下．這個決策過程到底是什麼．有沒有會議記錄．因為你們今天來的這個三個報告的決策會議過程．好像都是講這三個．我要請問你這個決策過程有沒有會議記錄．"},{"start":490.143,"end":508.348,"text":"是你陸委會自己決定的還是行政院跨部會決定的在去年的8月間是行政院跨部會嗎跨部會就是剛剛有提到了那跨部會的成員有哪些剛剛他有提到報告裡面有提到有我們陸委會交通部跟經濟部因為"},{"start":509.608,"end":510.429,"text":"昨年8月的時候他應該在忙著選舉沒有管這些事情"},{"start":535.487,"end":541.951,"text":"所以去年8月的時候你的意思說在清德總統不管這件事情但是您剛剛在這邊說不就你的覺得好像說來這邊觀光然後影響我們的選舉這好像選舉也是在你們的考慮之中嗎?所以您再講一下這個行政院的跨部會有哪些?有哪些?有哪些?有陸委會?"},{"start":562.982,"end":576.453,"text":"陸委會、交通部、跟經濟部那還有幾些相關的﹐相關是誰啊﹐國安單位嘛﹐比如說移民署也好啦﹐或者是這個﹐因為你今天的會議我今天請你們報告的這個名稱就是決策的內容你們今天也沒有告訴我好不好因為我的時間有限"},{"start":584.059,"end":601.43,"text":"今天專題報告是決策過程但是我們在你們三個單位裡面沒有看到決策過程然後做了這個決策之後到底有沒有做過全面的損害評估有沒有今天的報告也沒有看到"},{"start":602.845,"end":618.473,"text":"對啦,那基本上把結論都已經告訴各位了嘛沒有啊,影響評估、損害評估第一個不對等嘛,第二個呢,實際的利益影響多少嘛第三個其他的部分嘛,包括剛剛提到的嘛,對不對這個損害評估不僅僅是這個三個大項,還有國內的損害評估啊你們沒有啊,對不對剛剛不是剛剛提出的那個數據嗎"},{"start":626.497,"end":627.017,"text":"主委時間到了齁"},{"start":642.543,"end":643.184,"text":"高金素梅議員"},{"start":664.503,"end":690.823,"text":"是讓我們旅行業者當作兩岸的對抗的砲灰我覺得這樣子不妥啦好不好我想我們也有很多的委員可以我認為不妥這個希望大家能夠更加和諧的交流我覺得這個是你的工作不要忘記我們也努力了好不好我們盡量大家努力好不好尤其是您喔您更重要啊好嗎"},{"start":691.643,"end":692.465,"text":"好 謝謝您今天的質詢"}]}}}}