{"id":149401,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149401","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f008a19d8658b9fca1e2be856f0c9cef9f8ba9b0039caa7a6dd52469047ee03f45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:41:33 - 11:56:36","影片長度":"00:15:03","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-3"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":903,"end_time":"2024-03-06T11:56:36+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T11:41:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1096,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時41分）主席、各位大家午安喔！是不是請我們的許部長？"],["主席：好，請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長好，好久不見！這是我重新回到衛環委員會第二次質詢，看到你很開心，我可以站在這裡，我也很開心！","我要請教你第一件事情，請教一下，你知道印度14億人口裡面，會講英語的大概有幾percent？"],["許部長銘春：這個……"],["林委員淑芬：你不知道？你MOU都簽下去了、要評估輸入了，結果你不知道？"],["許部長銘春：我這裡有資料，但是我沒有……"],["林委員淑芬：你的署長都還在那邊查詢，我跟你說，人家都告訴你答案了，你連看都沒有看過。清大印度中心副主任方天賜他說，許多人誤以為印度人都會講英語，雖然他們官方語言是印度語跟英語，可是事實上全印度會講英語的人口，大概只有10%，所以未來在語言翻譯上，將會是一項關鍵的成本。署長，你不用再查了，我已經跟你說了，是10%。此外，你們一方面說，先鎖定東北部7省邦，但外交部昨天的記者會又重申，只要符合資格的都可以來臺灣，所以你的發言和外交部內容上有所不同。"],["許部長銘春：關於來源地區，將來我們會在工作層級會議來討論。"],["林委員淑芬：我的意思是說，印度是一個非常多元族群的國家，我們政府要開放這項輸入的政策，真的要有相當程度的瞭解。在印度使用的語言中，1萬人以上使用的語言有122種！122種！為什麼講這個呢？是因為這個準備的工作很龐雜，你們去簽MOU、你們去跟印度談，然後你們在國內要有準備工作、工作籌備會議等等，你們必須要討論的是，如何協助雇主乃至於全臺灣社會跟印度移工之間的文化適應，還有將可能面對的衝突，而不是把一個好的東西，甚至可能是外交突破或者是移工政策變成外交危機啊！有沒有可能？當然是有可能的。","根據你們自己的移工管理及運用調查統計報告，就在你們勞動部自己做的報告裡面，你知道嗎？你們自己做的有效樣本是8,562份，事業單位雇主有4,534份，家庭雇主有4,028份，而事業單位雇主在管理和運用移工時，有44%都曾遭遇過困擾，其中最大的困擾是什麼你知道嗎？署長你知道嗎？因為部長一看就是不知道。"],["蔡署長孟良：語言溝通。"],["許部長銘春：語言！"],["林委員淑芬：語言不通！幾percent你知道嗎？就是事業單位雇主方面，有幾percent？你不知道？那是你們自己做的報告，結果你們卻不知道？真的還假的？68.2%啦！再來就是發生逃跑失聯，有34%；再來是溝通困難，如配合度不高等，有27.4%。這是你們自己做的報告，這是事業單位雇主方面。家庭雇主方面，遇到困擾的有35.7%，困擾的原因中，語言不通的有56.1%，居高。","所以我們今天要談的是，的確語言溝通困難這個事實是存在的，而且雇主這幾十年來一致都認為這是最大的障礙之一啊！臺灣印度研究協會在去年你們表示政策開放的時候也有發表聲明，他們表示支持循序漸進的開放印度移工，希望政府相關單位成立專家諮詢小組，匯集民間的意見，進一步去規劃引進印度移工的配套措施，要正確的理解印度社會的特色跟臺印關係的重要性，但是你們也說未來要透過共同審議、研議，然後循序漸進、務實辦理。現在請問一下，有沒有具體擬定工作方向？有沒有要聘請專家成立專家諮詢小組？籌組的專家諮詢小組有沒有開過會？還是該小組已經成立了？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們已經成立，然後3月1號也開過會。"],["林委員淑芬：開過會了，那你們聘請的專家諮詢小組是真的專家還是你們內部會議邀請專家來？"],["許部長銘春：外交部提供給我們的印度專家，即外交部有給我們建議的名單。"],["林委員淑芬：所以是你們的工作層級會議，還是你們內部的會議？"],["許部長銘春：我們的工作層級會議目前還沒有……"],["林委員淑芬：是你們的準備會議邀請了外部的專家？"],["許部長銘春：對，是供諮商的，我們現在會有諮詢小組。"],["林委員淑芬：比例有多高？署長。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，因為我們現在遴聘……"],["林委員淑芬：專家在你們整體會議……"],["蔡署長孟良：就是在印度方面比較有瞭解的，像一些學者，這裡面也有包含過去對印度比較熟悉的台商……"],["林委員淑芬：我在問你的比例啦！你們行政人員占了九成九，然後邀請一個專家也算是有邀請專家啊！"],["蔡署長孟良：基本上我們都是邀請專家學者，然後還有相關部會代表一起來討論。"],["林委員淑芬：好。我現在在這裡要跟部長分享，因為這是一個新開發的市場，部長，我現在不問你這個問題，你們不用在那邊竊竊私語了，我要請你專心聽，因為新聞報導說你留任的機率很高，所以我們未來的勞工政策還是要仰賴於你。但我現在有一個大的東西要談，數十年來從開放外勞到現在，大家都覺得這是錯誤的引進政策，都已經來不及改了，剛才人家質詢問你直聘的時候，你也覺得現在的狀況已經很難走回頭路、很難再改了，所以過去錯誤的外勞引進政策，比如說國家退位、沒有政府，引進純粹都靠外勞仲介，引進來後又語言不通、專業不專業、沒有技能的訓練，這些問題都丟給雇主，所以整體的外勞政策就是由雇主和仲介去承擔，國家都只負責收錢而已。","針對過去錯誤的外勞引進政策，這是一個最好的導正時機，因為人家質疑你開放這個市場、引進這個市場，是不是因為有另一批提供人力的仲介業者有龐大的利益、機會？然後你又要如何避免這個純粹只是造福仲介業者而已？如果照過去錯誤的引進外勞政策，對啊！沒錯啊！訓練也是仲介啊！然後中間的剝削、中間不當的管理、沒有專業訓練，然後丟給雇主承擔。今天這一個對印度開放印度勞工的模式，是一個好的契機，以前從來沒做過，所以我們MOU要簽的時候，我們現在國對國要談的時候，我認為你們移工政策要檢討的好契機就是在這裡。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["林委員淑芬：國對國的直聘。"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["林委員淑芬：我們弱化私人仲介，負起國家責任，而國家要做到什麼責任？雖然你們有談到印度要負起語言訓練等等的責任，但不管是印度或臺灣，我們要負起幾個責任，包括生活語言的訓練、專業的培養，當然要杜絕移工被剝削，只有移工不被嚴重地剝削，他才能夠安心地、穩定地在臺灣就業。同時也要解決雇主的問題，因為你們前端沒做好，然後他就要承擔所有跟移工吵架、語言不通等等的困擾，所以國家要承擔起這個責任。","所以現行的狀況，我們大家都知道，錯誤的引進政策裡面，你說要有直聘，可是97%都是委託仲介，不要忘了，你應該知道RBA，RBA他們對於國際品牌其實做了一些稽核，臺灣的供應鏈也接受了稽核，臺灣有哪些廠已經說他們要對移工採零付費模式？就是老闆說他們自己來吸收，有哪幾個廠？你不知道嗎？"],["許部長銘春：有啦！但是我們沒有記那個廠的名稱，我知道我們臺灣有啦！像蘋果供應鏈都有，但是你問我公司名稱的話，我並沒有在記那個。"],["林委員淑芬：RBA的行為準則為電子業和它的供應鏈制定了規範，它當然是拿那些有品牌形象的、國際形象的、有能力的大廠、大牌先開刀，其實它的目的是要確保員工安全的工作環境、有尊嚴、接受尊重的工作，而且要符合環保規範、符合商業的誠信道德，所以我們的企業，當然是大企業，也願意實施移工零付費模式了，在這種狀況裡面，世界爭相競逐印度輸出的勞動力，勢必也是要比各國勞動的就業環境，人家也是要比較一下啊！","你知道RBA說要稽核你以後，臺灣的一些企業就說我要實施移工零付費模式，對此，人家批評了一句話，什麼話你知道嗎？就是政府比不上一個國際的NGO啦！你有辦法做到零剝削嗎？移工零付費嗎？你有做到對移工的專業訓練、生活語言訓練嗎？都沒有！現在一個RBA、非官方的機構，人家讓我們臺灣企業帶頭來做。","部長，我要跟你講這個事不是說你比不上RBA，而是這個未來一定會成為趨勢，而且一定會朝向這個方向，所以這些類似企業的基本責任，也要朝這個方向走，這是一個好的時機，就是你印度開放輸入的模式應該要將過去錯誤的引進政策予以導正，做一個好的檢討，比較像是以色列的模式，由印度政府負責培訓，主席，我最後講一下以色列模式，雖然我還有其他要講……"],["主席：好，因為待會要……"],["林委員淑芬：以色列模式是由印度政府負責培訓，訓練內容要由輸入國來提出，而且我們要針對過去可能被詬病的環節去予以扭轉，比如說韓國將語言基本能力測驗列為基本選工標準，進階的技能檢定它沒有強制，但是它有這個要求；入境以後要提供基本訓練；希望能夠依職類開設相關的職訓和中文課程，其實不只是顧到我們而已，也要有利於移工來臺以後職場及生活的適應，而他適應了對雇主也是好的。而且在積極作為上，移工來臺以後，我們甚至還可以推動，如果你返回印度後，我們是不是可以引薦你回到印度的臺企裡面去工作，優先引用、進用，以增進兩國經濟人才的交流，還有增進兩國的外交的情誼和合作的關係。我剛剛講的是國對國的引進、負起政府的責任、政府要扛起更多要應負責的訓練，不要跟過去一樣，覺得都跟你無關，你只收那個4,500，現在還沒有調漲吧？"],["許部長銘春：現在是2,000，然後如果你是3K五級制就再加上去。"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦！你們就安基金那一筆是要繳多少錢？"],["許部長銘春：就安經費，每個移工不是每月2,000塊嗎？"],["林委員淑芬：多少錢？"],["許部長銘春：雇主繳的啊！"],["林委員淑芬：多少錢？我只是問多少錢，又沒有講到那個。"],["蔡署長孟良：一般製造業2,000塊。"],["林委員淑芬：不要只有收錢啦！我的意思是說，要扛起這個政府的責任，然後國對國直聘，可以嗎？"],["許部長銘春：這個也是我們未來工作層級會議中的一個重點。"],["林委員淑芬：我想現在在場的委員都會支持，我們支持印度模式成為未來模式的示範，然後導正過去錯誤的政策，印度模式就從國對國直聘，弱化私人仲介從中巧立名目來剝削移工的機會來做起，然後也證明你不是為了人力仲介業去開發這個市場，可以嗎？"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝委員。"],["林委員淑芬：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝林淑芬委員。我們現在處理臨時提案，總計5案，請一併宣讀。","一、","案由：鑑於勞動部倉促決議並主導我國與印度完成簽署「促進僱用引進印度勞工暸解備忘錄MOU」，引發民眾恐慌、社會譁然，且，經查勞動部部內擬定跨國勞動力政策的「跨國勞動力政策協商諮詢小組」，過去兩年並無任何有關印度移工引進的相關「討論提案」與「決議」，可見得勞動部倉促為之顯有缺失。爰此，建請勞動部","1.進行「社會影響評估」、「勞動市場影響評估」、「政策可行性評估」報告","2.邀請勞資政學還有移工仲介與移工權益代表，在立院召開公聽會","3.儘速在各縣市政府逐一召開說明會，盤整現有通譯與移工生活、轉業等服務量能","4.最後針對現有失聯外勞暴增現象，提出階段性精進改善計畫與目標","勞動部在未完成上述精進作為與目標前，不得逕自開放印度移工入境。","提案人：涂權吉","連署人：陳菁徽　　蘇清泉","二、","勞動部針對外國人從事家庭幫傭工作之我國雇主資格，依現行法規「外國人從事就業服務法第四十六條第一項第八款至第十一款工作資格及審查標準」第12條規定，僅由家戶成員符合「有3名以上之年齡6歲以下子女。」或「有4名以上之年齡12歲以下子女，且其中2名為年齡6歲以下。」條件之一，且累計點數滿十六點者，始得申請招募或承接外國人。","然現行國內家庭多為小家庭或少子女之狀況，上述規定並不符合現今國情，且目前多為雙薪家庭狀況，需在工作與照養子女上兼顧，增加不少生育家庭壓力。為減緩家庭壓力，爰建議勞動部放寬審查標準，修正相關規定至「家有一名六歲以下輕度或中度罕病兒、累計點數十六點下修及家中有兩名四歲以下幼兒」，是否有當？敬請公決。","提案人：王育敏　　王鴻薇　　邱鎮軍　　廖偉翔","三、","今（113）年2月台印簽訂MOU預計引進印度移工，以補充台灣勞動力缺口。經查勞動部新聞稿與媒體相關報導，台印雙方於去（112）年六月左右即開始洽談。直至本國視訊與印度簽署MOU前一日，勞動部仍表示簽署相關期程與方式仍在研議中，顯然勞動部蓄意隱匿相關資訊，迴避外部監督。","又查自洽談伊始，已八個月有餘，期間內卻未曾有召開政策說明會、公聽會與國人溝通，更未有政策影響評估、社會影響評估、勞動力市場需求與衝擊評估……等報告，已供參考。爰要求勞動部於召開公聽會、三場座談會與政策影響評估報告前，不應逕自試行引進印度移工。","提案人：王育敏　　廖偉翔　　盧縣一","四、","今（113）年2月台印簽訂MOU預計引進印度移工，以補充台灣勞動力缺口。惟台灣外勞失聯後逃逸情形，自110年以來由四萬餘人增加至八萬餘人，人數增加近四萬人，成長比例增加近40%。此情形致使每10名移工即有1.1名為失聯移工，失聯移工情形相當嚴重，並對台灣社會與治安形成潛在問題。","有鑑於移工引進多數透過國內仲介業者，後續管理、移轉雇主等業務亦同。故為維護合法業者與移工權益，有效自源頭降低逃逸外勞數量，爰要求勞動部應針對引進移工失聯率過高之仲介業者，於一定期間內禁止引進移工，並於一個月內研擬預警機制與業者失聯率評估標準。","提案人：王育敏　　廖偉翔　　盧縣一","五、","案由：有鑑於巴氏量表已經超過10年沒有調整，其次很多長輩的失能有時候是跟環境相關，包括獨居失依，沒有主要照顧者等，並非巴氏量表可以反映出來的真實情形，變成許多實際上有需求的人，也會被排除在外。爰要求勞動部檢討「外國人從事就業服務法第46條第1項第8款至第11工作資格及審查標準」放寬被看護者應具條件為：年齡滿八十歲以上無須經醫療機構所作專業評估：七十歲以上經診斷為癌症二期患者或年齡未滿八十歲，經醫療機構以團隊方式所作專業評估，認定有全日照護需要者，並請勞動部於1個月內將檢討結果回復本院社會福利及環境衛生委員會。","說明：官方統計資料預估2025年，台灣老年人口比將達到20.7%；預估2036年進入老年人口比達28%的極高齡（ultra-aged）國家，更是名列全球第三的高齡人口比率成長最快的國家。現今民眾申請外籍看護，除接受指定醫療機構進行巴氏量表專業評估之外，運需要包括符合特定身心障礙重度等級以上項目之一的資格才可申請，這樣耗時、徒增家屬與個案負擔外，也很容易因認定問題讓鑑定人員與民眾發生衝突，造成醫療糾紛。為因應高齡社會到來，有必要簡化民眾申請外籍看護的行政流程。","提案人：邱鎮軍　　王育敏　　盧縣一"],["主席：好，謝謝宣讀。現在我們開始討論，請問第1案行政單位有沒有意見？"],["蔡署長孟良：報告召委和各位委員，關於第1案，我們知道涂委員在關心整個印度相關的評估以及未來整個對外的溝通，目前我們會完成相關的評估，這部分我們可以提供。另外，就是在整個社會的溝通面上，其實我們現在已經有跟相關的專家諮詢，有跨部會以及未來也會跟相關利害關係團體討論，有一個溝通的平臺，至於後續的整個規劃，未來移工引進之後的生活、翻譯或照顧，都會配套來完成。","最後就是失聯移工，這個我們本來就有同步在進行，未來會整個做一個精進，所以建議委員是不是能夠同意，因為MOU現在的進度就是因為雙方已經完成換文，在行政院備查之後可能後續比較重要的是在工作層級會議的討論，剛剛委員關心的這些議題，我們會同步來進行，就是相關的評估報告以及未來對外的溝通跟政策諮詢的程序，這一部分建議在整個程序面上，是不是容許我們就還是照目前MOU的進度？至於這裡面所提到的評估報告、我們對外的一些溝通、專家諮詢、跟利害關係人的討論，這部分我們會再按照委員的指示，我們會來做一個辦理，以上。"],["主席：你要修正什麼樣的文字？這個案子你們的修正文字有跟委員溝通嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：剛剛是有跟涂委員這邊溝通，我們建議的修正文字是這樣子，就是後面的1、2、3、4跟最後一段都建議刪除，第6行改成「爰此，建請勞動部召開跨部會及學者專家諮詢會議，及邀請各利害關係團體參與討論，並提供具體評估報告，送本院社會福利及衛生環境委員會各委員。」以上是建議的修正文字。"],["主席：涂委員可以同意嗎？委員如果要發言可以上台發言。"],["涂委員權吉：謝謝主席。針對他提的「完善評估報告」，有沒有包含比較明確的，像社會影響評估、勞動市場評估跟政策可行性評估？因為用「完善評估」我覺得很模糊啊！"],["蔡署長孟良：這個我們都會納入。"],["涂委員權吉：可以註明嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：好。這三個面向的文字，我們在整個報告裡面都會把它納入。"],["涂委員權吉：就是要明確說到，至少這三個評估報告一定要做。"],["蔡署長孟良：OK，好。"],["涂委員權吉：因為你講「完善」我覺得太模糊了。"],["蔡署長孟良：是不是我們建議把文字修正為「並提供社會影響評估、勞動市場影響評估及政策可行性評估等完善評估報告」？"],["涂委員權吉：說明會的部分呢？"],["蔡署長孟良：說明會是這樣的，因為我們現在已經建立一個平台，有專家、與政策相關的一些代表，這部分我們會來邀請、納入，其實我們在3月1號已經召開第一次會議、已經在進行當中了。"],["涂委員權吉：由你們召集各縣市召開說明會，這會有困難嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：我們是不是建議委員，因為目前各縣市對這個議題可能還並不是很實質的瞭解，所以未來在討論的時候，我們是可以找部分的縣市，比方說移工需求可能比較大的縣市，讓他們有一些代表也來參與我們的討論。"],["涂委員權吉：通譯的部分呢？"],["蔡署長孟良：這個就是未來在配套上，就是工作層級會議的配套，這部分都會同步來進行。"],["涂委員權吉：因為你們一直說會針對英文的部分，是不是你在引進的部分會特別註明針對英文溝通能力的問題？"],["蔡署長孟良：對，跟委員報告，因為這個部分還要透過雙邊的工作會議，還要跟印度方來做一個討論，我們會提出我們的需求。"],["涂委員權吉：提案不能註明要求你們在各縣市召開說明會，以解決各縣市的疑慮嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，因為目前這只是一個初步的，MOU只是一個合作的框架跟意向，後續一旦整個確定，在工作會議討論的過程當中，假如未來在執行上跟各縣市有關，這個部分後續我們會再來做一個妥善的規劃。"],["涂委員權吉：好，就是針對報告的部分，那幾項一定要特別註明。"],["蔡署長孟良：好。"],["涂委員權吉：你在召開會議的時候，要請各縣市的代表來。"],["蔡署長孟良：我們會邀請部分比較主要的縣市代表來參與。"],["涂委員權吉：好。"],["主席：好，謝謝涂委員。","接下來處理第2案。"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，第2案我們無意見。"],["主席：沒有意見……"],["林委員淑芬：我有意見。"],["主席：好，請林委員。"],["林委員淑芬：署長，你作為一個勞動部的主管機關，你對這個沒有意見讓我們覺得很訝異啊！第一個，我們對於開放外籍家事幫傭到臺灣，本來就有規定，現在是要予以放寬，的確，若你有符合輕度、中度、罕病兒或者是比較需要人家照顧等等這些條件，我們是支持的，但是提案的後面是說家中有兩名4歲以下的幼兒，也要放寬這個門檻。以前我們就談過了，鬆綁外籍幫傭聘僱的門檻，它恐怕會造成替代結果。我們知道外籍幫傭、外籍勞工輸入到臺灣，我們最擔心的有二種，一個是補充或者是替代，但我們大多數的外籍移工都是所謂的補充，就是臺灣人不做了，我們就補充進來，但臺灣人不做所以補充進來其實還產生第二個後果，就是拉低我們的薪資，事實上這已經有了，而我們就要回頭過來討論所謂家庭幫傭這個市場會不會產生這個衝擊、會不會產生替代？我們知道到府保母，他除了協助家事清潔、食物烹飪；鐘點阿姨他們也是來做居家清潔、料理烹飪、雜物收納、折燙衣服等等，這個是家事的部分。","育兒家庭現在大部分的模式是送到外面的托育服務體系，如果你降低了聘僱外籍幫傭的標準，它是不是在鼓勵你回歸到家庭？在這種狀況裡面，它不但衝擊到鐘點清潔阿姨、鐘點保母，還衝擊到現在兒教產業從業人員的工作權，現在有2萬8,000名保母，他有沒有可能會面臨沒有小孩可以帶的問題？兒教產業、托嬰中心、幼兒園，更有幾萬名的從業人員，他們是不是也要失業？我現在從孩子的權利、從育兒的專業來看，我已經講過了，外籍幫傭取代到府服務的保母或是專業的保母，其實是在貶抑育兒的專業，悖離了育兒的照顧，它現在已經走向專業化和證照化了，你不要小看我們的保母喔！也不要小看這一群人！不只是保母，包括家事清潔員，他們都是要受訓，要有學分的要求，甚至政府要鼓勵這些人在培訓以外，還要有認證制度，我們是要走向這樣子的專業，是要來做育兒的，育兒不是只讓他吃得飽、睡覺、照顧生活起居而已，不是！","所以在這種狀況裡面，你說要修正為兩名4歲以下的幼兒，我認為茲事體大！你讓那些鐘點清潔業的人、保母、幼兒園、托嬰中心還有專業化的照顧制度，都要走回頭路，都要面臨沒工作啊！把育兒貶抑了、非專業化了。"],["主席：好，林委員，因為提案的委員他現在不在，所以我們這案就暫緩不處理，好不好？"],["林委員淑芬：好，謝謝。"],["主席：因為有委員有不同意見，我們就暫緩不處理。","處理第3案。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，第3案王委員提醒了MOU推動之後可能的影響跟評估報告，是不是能夠比照剛剛涂委員的方式？因為未來的評估報告我們一定會提供給各位委員，是不是以我們剛剛跟涂委員討論的那個方向，在文字上來做一個調整？"],["主席：我這邊比較著重的是你們要跟社會的溝通，你剛剛講的是專家學者，但是現在其實民間有一些站出來的團體，你們剛剛說用email跟他們溝通，我覺得這個很不足，而且是單向式的，email已讀不回，然後你們就算了，我覺得這件事情真的要成功，是要讓社會徹底理解，就是你們準備了什麼、做了什麼，這樣的社會溝通才算是成功的，所以我建議你們應該要比較具體去承諾你們大概會開什麼樣的會，包括要不要開公聽會或者要不要開座談會；除了專家學者的會議之外，如果要開，大概是幾場，你如果覺得三場很多，那你大概要開幾場？我希望這些東西要比較明確，其實這是在幫你們，因為你社會溝通不做，我覺得反而會阻礙你未來所有工作的進行，好不好？如果你們可以辦，你就承諾你們會召開相關的公聽會或座談會，就是跟社會進行溝通。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，我們現在的諮詢會議其實就有類似這個性質，因為我們參與者就是除了專家之外……"],["主席：有那麼廣泛嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：對，我們現在打算邀一些利害關係團體，包含現在的一些公民團體，這些我們其實都會邀請，我們未來會把邀請的對象儘量再更……"],["主席：那你們要提供資料，讓本委會知道你們邀請了誰。"],["蔡署長孟良：OK，沒問題。"],["主席：而且要達一定比例。"],["蔡署長孟良：好，OK。"],["主席：民間團體要達……"],["蔡署長孟良：我們會邀請。"],["主席：因為剛才林委員也有問到，你邀一個也是有邀請啊！"],["許部長銘春：我們會來規劃。"],["蔡署長孟良：我們會規劃出來。"],["主席：對啊！要不然你就要有具體規劃然後送委員會，我們會持續監督，好不好？"],["蔡署長孟良：好，我們依照召委的指示，就是在這個諮詢會議中我們會把相關的參與者……"],["許部長銘春：我們其實讓這些團體進來，大家也會比較清楚，然後也可以對話，包括民間團體在疑慮的是什麼，然後專家學者依他們所瞭解的來告訴他，我覺得這樣反而比較好，不會讓人家認為只有單方的官方說法。"],["主席：下次你們要回覆委員會你們到底會召開幾場這樣的諮詢會議，還有它的頻率、你們多久召開一次等等，好不好？"],["蔡署長孟良：這個文字我們可以要稍微整理一下。"],["許部長銘春：這個文字我們再整理一下。"],["主席：對，因為待會還有質詢，所以你們修正完之後再給本席看，這個案子待會再回來看。","處理第4案。"],["蔡署長孟良：關於第4案，我們也關心失聯移工，未來在仲介管理這部分，我們會遵照委員的指示來辦理。"],["主席：好，那就通過，謝謝。","處理第5案。"],["蔡署長孟良：第5案，針對高齡現行的看護移工申請，因為巴氏量表對一部分地區可能會造成不便，其實這個部分我們跟衛福部都有在持續檢討，這個案子我們會遵照委員的指示，我們會來做檢討跟評估，這個案子我們無意見。"],["主席：好，第5案也通過。","剛剛第3案的文字修正，你們待會再提供給本席。我們臨時提案還沒有完全處理完畢，就是第3案的文字修正還要再提供給本席。","接下來我們繼續質詢。我們請謝衣鳯委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-3","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王正旭","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","盧縣一","楊曜","劉建國","林淑芬","謝衣鳯","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","吳思瑤","洪申翰","游顥","洪孟楷","蔡易餘","羅智強","陳瑩","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":125,"meetingDate":["2024-03-06"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度\n移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"149401","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149401","tool":"pyannote","id":"149401-pyannote"},"job_id":"9weXStNuJWQOkQ9w","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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00:01:24,870\n來源地區將來我們會在這個工作層級會議來做討論\n\n6\n00:01:51,365 --> 00:02:05,054\n那我的意思是說印度是一個非常多元族群的國家我們對政府要開放這個輸入的政策真的要有相當程度的了解在印度使用的語言一萬人以上使用的語言有122種\n\n7\n00:02:09,557 --> 00:02:26,823\n那在這種狀況裡面為什麼講這個呢是因為這個準備的工作很龐雜你們去簽MOU你們去跟印度談然後你們自己國內要準備工作籌備會議工作籌備等等你們必須要討論的是\n\n8\n00:02:28,564 --> 00:02:46,458\n要如何協助雇主乃至於全台灣的社會跟印度移工之間的文化適應還有將可能面對的衝突不要把一個好的外交突破或者是移工政策變成外交危機\n\n9\n00:02:48,342 --> 00:03:07,266\n有沒有可能?當然是有可能的。臺灣僱主根據你們自己叫移工管理及運用調查統計報告你們自己勞動部做的報告裡面,你知道嗎?那個事業單位,你們自己做的有效樣本是8,562份\n\n10\n00:03:09,987 --> 00:03:27,518\n事業單位的僱主4534份家庭僱主4028份你知道事業面僱主在管理和運用移工時曾遭遇到的困擾有44%都遭遇過困擾其中最大的困擾是什麼你知道嗎阿蘇丁你知道嗎保證一塊知道不一樣語言不通幾%你知道嗎事業單位的僱主幾%\n\n11\n00:03:39,878 --> 00:03:41,621\n你不知道?你自己做的報告你自己...你都不知道?現在68.2%啦!\n\n12\n00:03:49,864 --> 00:03:55,208\n家庭僱主方面遇到困擾的35.7%困擾的原因語言不通還是56.1%居高\n\n13\n00:04:12,282 --> 00:04:23,795\n所以我們今天要講說的確語言溝通困難這個事實是存在的而且僱主這幾十年來一致都認為這是最大的障礙之一\n\n14\n00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:53,040\n那我們今天這個臺灣印度研究協會他們在去年你們政策說要開放的時候也有發表聲明他們表示支持循序漸進的開放印度移工希望政府相關單位要成立專家諮詢小組匯集民間的意見進一步的去規劃引進印度移工的配套措施\n\n15\n00:04:54,381 --> 00:05:08,166\n要正確的理解印度社會的特色跟台印關係的重要性但是呢你們也說未來要透過共同審議研議然後循序漸進務實辦理那現在請問一下有沒有具體擬定的工作方向有沒有要聘請專家成立這個專家諮詢小組那籌組的專家諮詢小組有沒有\n\n16\n00:05:19,289 --> 00:05:41,215\n有沒有開過會還是已經成立了沒?有,報告委我們已經成立,然後3月1號也開過會開過會,你們請的專家諮詢小組是真的專家還是你們內部會邀請專家?是外交部給我們的印度專家,外交部有給我們建議的名單所以是你們內部的這個工作層級會議\n\n17\n00:05:43,639 --> 00:05:45,082\n還是你們內部的：林淑芬\n\n18\n00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:23,140\n你們署長跟委員報告因為我們現在聆聽專家在你們整體會議就是有相關跟印度方面比較了解的像一些學者那這裡面也有包含就是過去在印度沒有不要我在問你的比例啦你們行政人員占了9成9然後邀請一個專家也是專家我們其實基本上我們都是邀請專家學者然後還有相關部會代表一起來討論\n\n19\n00:06:25,826 --> 00:06:30,430\n我現在在這裡要跟部長分享因為這是一個新開發的市場老實說我現在不想問你這個問題不用切切私語我要請你專心聽\n\n20\n00:06:43,079 --> 00:07:06,947\n新聞報導你留任的機率很高所以我們未來的勞工政策還仰賴於你但我現在有一個大的數十年來從開放外勞到現在大家都覺得錯誤的引進政策都已經來不及改了你剛才人家質詢問你執聘的時候你也覺得說現在的狀況已經很難走回頭路再改了\n\n21\n00:07:08,087 --> 00:07:23,053\n所以過去錯誤的外勞引進政策比如說國家退位沒有政府純粹引進都靠外勞仲介引進來以後語言不通專業不專業沒有技能的訓練這個問題都丟給僱主\n\n22\n00:07:25,954 --> 00:07:29,935\n所以整體的外勞政策就是由僱主和仲介去承擔國家都只負責收錢而已所以這樣過去錯誤的外勞引進政策這是一個最好的導正的時機\n\n23\n00:07:43,260 --> 00:08:00,648\n因為人家質疑你說你開放這個市場引進這個市場是不是因為有另一批提供這個人力仲介業者龐大的這個利益機會然後你又要如何避免說這個純粹是造福仲介業者而已\n\n24\n00:08:01,408 --> 00:08:09,113\n如果照過去錯誤的引進外勞的這種政策對啊沒錯啊訓練也是仲介啊然後仲介剝削仲介不當的管理然後沒有專業訓練然後丟給雇主承擔啊那今天這一個對印度開放印度勞工的模式啊這是一個好的契機喔從來沒做過我們MOU要簽的時候我們現在國對國要談的時候\n\n25\n00:08:26,185 --> 00:08:32,708\n我們是希望說你們這個移工政策檢討的好契機在這裡國對國的職聘我們弱化私人仲介負起國家責任而國家要做到什麼責任雖然你們有談到說印度要負起這個語言的訓練等等\n\n26\n00:08:44,674 --> 00:08:47,337\n不管印度或台灣我們要負起幾個責任包括生活語言的訓練、專業的培養當然要杜絕移工被剝削只有移工不被嚴重的剝削\n\n27\n00:08:59,950 --> 00:09:16,785\n那這樣子他才能夠安心的、穩定的在台灣就業,也要解決僱主,因為你們前端沒做好,然後要承擔所有完結跟這個移工完結的、語言不通的這種困擾啊。\n\n28\n00:09:18,246 --> 00:09:38,073\n所以國家要承擔起這個責任所以現行我們大家都知道錯誤的引進責任引進政策裡面你說有殖病可是97%都是委託仲介那不要忘了你知道RBA\n\n29\n00:09:41,314 --> 00:10:03,354\n他們對於國際品牌即使做一些集合台灣的供應鏈也接受集合那台灣的哪些廠已經說他們要對這個移工零付費模式他們要付起這個廠那個老闆說我們自己來吸收有哪幾個廠\n\n30\n00:10:09,383 --> 00:10:13,464\nBNA的行為準則為電子業和它的供應鏈制定了規範它當然是拿品牌形象、國際形象、大廠、大牌有能力的先開刀\n\n31\n00:10:33,769 --> 00:10:49,272\n那其實那個目的是要確保員工安全的工作環境有尊嚴而且接受尊重的工作而且要符合環保規範符合商業的誠信道德所以在這種我們的\n\n32\n00:10:50,433 --> 00:11:18,593\n企業當然是大企業也願意實施移工零付費模式了那在這種狀況裡面世界爭相競逐要的這個印度輸出的勞動力勢必也是要比各國勞動的就業環境也是人家也是要比啊那你知道阿比耶這樣子說我要集合你以後台灣的企業就有一些人就說我要實施移工零付費模式人家批評了一句話什麼話你知道嗎\n\n33\n00:11:20,055 --> 00:11:23,038\n這個政府比不上一個國際的NGO啦你有辦法做到零剝削嗎?移工零付費嗎?你有做到對移工的專業訓練、生活語言訓練嗎?都沒有現在一個RBA\n\n34\n00:11:39,079 --> 00:11:54,933\n非官方的機構人家讓我們台灣企業帶頭在做那其實我部長要跟你講這個事不是說你比不上RBA而是說這個未來一定會成為趨勢而且一定會朝向這個方向\n\n35\n00:11:56,595 --> 00:12:24,372\n所以這些企業類似企業的基本責任也要朝這個方向走所以這是一個好的時機好的時機就你印度開放的模式輸入的模式應該要將過去錯誤的引進政策導正做一個好的檢討比照像是以色列的模式由印度政府負責培訓以色列的模式主席我最後講以色列模式雖然我還有其他要講\n\n36\n00:12:27,186 --> 00:12:52,436\n以色列模式是由政府．印度政府負責培訓．而且訓練內容是由台灣．要由這個輸入國來提出．而且我們要針對過去可能被詬病的環節．要去扭轉．比如說韓國將語言基本能力測驗．列為基本選工標準．進階的技能檢定．他沒有強制．但是他有這個．\n\n37\n00:12:53,496 --> 00:13:10,412\n那入境以後要提供基本訓練希望還能夠依職類開設相關的職訓和中文課程我們要﹐其實不是顧到我們而已也要有利於移工來台後職場及生活適應而他適應了對僱主也是好的\n\n38\n00:13:11,713 --> 00:13:33,005\n甚至我們你再積極作為你要講移工你來台以後可能還可以推如果你返回印度我們是不是引介你回到印度的台企裡面去工作優先引用、禁用然後增進兩國的經濟人才的交流然後增進兩國的外交的情誼和合作的關係\n\n39\n00:13:34,886 --> 00:14:02,242\n我想剛剛講這個國對國的引進啊然後負起政府責任啊然後剛剛講政府要扛起更多的這個負責的訓練還有要求不要把不要跟過去一樣都跟你無關你只收那個四千四千多少四千五現在沒有調漲吧兩千啊然後如果你是那個3K5機制在家不是啦你們那個救安基金那一筆繳多少錢\n\n40\n00:14:03,221 --> 00:14:03,501\n國對國執聘可以嗎?\n\n41\n00:14:25,778 --> 00:14:51,435\n這個也是我們未來工作成績會其實這個也是我們一個重點我想現在在場的委員都會支持我們支持印度模式成為未來模式的示範然後導正過去錯誤的政策印度模式就從國對國執聘弱化私人仲介從中巧立名目的這個剝削移工的這個機會然後也證明你不是為了人力仲介業去開發這個市場的可以嗎\n\n42\n00:14:56,645 --> 00:14:58,528\n法定人數不足\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7896\t12882\t主席 各位大家午安 是不是請我們許部長好 請許部長部長好 好久不見了\n20809\t36815\t這個是我重新回到衛網委員會第二次諮詢看到你很開心我可以站在這裡我也很開心我要請教你第一件事情請教一下你知道印度的人口大概14億裡面會講英語的大概有幾%嗎?這個\n40765\t46592\t你不知道?你都要評估MOU都簽下去了要評估輸入嗎?你不知道?你收到之後還要查詢?\n52489\t78166\t我告訴你 人家都告訴你答案了你連看都沒有看過清大印度中心副主任方天賜他說許多人誤以為印度人都會講英語雖然他們官方語言是印度話跟印度語跟英語可是事實上全印度會講英語的人口大概只有10%未來在語言翻譯上將會是一項關鍵的成本那我們就看到部長\n83209\t84870\t來源地區將來我們會在這個工作層級會議來做討論\n111365\t125054\t那我的意思是說印度是一個非常多元族群的國家我們對政府要開放這個輸入的政策真的要有相當程度的了解在印度使用的語言一萬人以上使用的語言有122種\n129557\t146823\t那在這種狀況裡面為什麼講這個呢是因為這個準備的工作很龐雜你們去簽MOU你們去跟印度談然後你們自己國內要準備工作籌備會議工作籌備等等你們必須要討論的是\n148564\t166458\t要如何協助雇主乃至於全台灣的社會跟印度移工之間的文化適應還有將可能面對的衝突不要把一個好的外交突破或者是移工政策變成外交危機\n168342\t187266\t有沒有可能?當然是有可能的。臺灣僱主根據你們自己叫移工管理及運用調查統計報告你們自己勞動部做的報告裡面,你知道嗎?那個事業單位,你們自己做的有效樣本是8,562份\n189987\t207518\t事業單位的僱主4534份家庭僱主4028份你知道事業面僱主在管理和運用移工時曾遭遇到的困擾有44%都遭遇過困擾其中最大的困擾是什麼你知道嗎阿蘇丁你知道嗎保證一塊知道不一樣語言不通幾%你知道嗎事業單位的僱主幾%\n219878\t221621\t你不知道?你自己做的報告你自己...你都不知道?現在68.2%啦!\n229864\t235208\t家庭僱主方面遇到困擾的35.7%困擾的原因語言不通還是56.1%居高\n252282\t263795\t所以我們今天要講說的確語言溝通困難這個事實是存在的而且僱主這幾十年來一致都認為這是最大的障礙之一\n265120\t293040\t那我們今天這個臺灣印度研究協會他們在去年你們政策說要開放的時候也有發表聲明他們表示支持循序漸進的開放印度移工希望政府相關單位要成立專家諮詢小組匯集民間的意見進一步的去規劃引進印度移工的配套措施\n294381\t308166\t要正確的理解印度社會的特色跟台印關係的重要性但是呢你們也說未來要透過共同審議研議然後循序漸進務實辦理那現在請問一下有沒有具體擬定的工作方向有沒有要聘請專家成立這個專家諮詢小組那籌組的專家諮詢小組有沒有\n319289\t341215\t有沒有開過會還是已經成立了沒?有,報告委我們已經成立,然後3月1號也開過會開過會,你們請的專家諮詢小組是真的專家還是你們內部會邀請專家?是外交部給我們的印度專家,外交部有給我們建議的名單所以是你們內部的這個工作層級會議\n343639\t345082\t還是你們內部的：林淑芬\n357080\t383140\t你們 署長跟委員報告 因為我們現在聆聽專家在你們整體會議就是有相關跟印度方面比較了解的像一些學者那這裡面也有包含就是過去在印度沒有不要 我在問你的比例啦你們行政人員占了9成9然後邀請一個專家也是專家我們其實基本上我們都是邀請專家學者然後還有相關部會代表一起來討論\n385826\t390430\t我現在在這裡要跟部長分享因為這是一個新開發的市場老實說我現在不想問你這個問題不用切切私語我要請你專心聽\n403079\t426947\t新聞報導你留任的機率很高所以我們未來的勞工政策還仰賴於你但我現在有一個大的數十年來從開放外勞到現在大家都覺得錯誤的引進政策都已經來不及改了你剛才人家質詢問你執聘的時候你也覺得說現在的狀況已經很難走回頭路再改了\n428087\t443053\t所以過去錯誤的外勞引進政策比如說國家退位沒有政府純粹引進都靠外勞仲介引進來以後語言不通專業不專業沒有技能的訓練這個問題都丟給僱主\n445954\t449935\t所以整體的外勞政策就是由僱主和仲介去承擔國家都只負責收錢而已所以這樣過去錯誤的外勞引進政策這是一個最好的導正的時機\n463260\t480648\t因為人家質疑你說你開放這個市場引進這個市場是不是因為有另一批提供這個人力仲介業者龐大的這個利益機會然後你又要如何避免說這個純粹是造福仲介業者而已\n481408\t489113\t如果照過去錯誤的引進外勞的這種政策對啊沒錯啊訓練也是仲介啊然後仲介剝削仲介不當的管理然後沒有專業訓練然後丟給雇主承擔啊那今天這一個對印度開放印度勞工的模式啊這是一個好的契機喔從來沒做過我們MOU要簽的時候我們現在國對國要談的時候\n506185\t512708\t我們是希望說你們這個移工政策檢討的好契機在這裡國對國的職聘我們弱化私人仲介負起國家責任而國家要做到什麼責任雖然你們有談到說印度要負起這個語言的訓練等等\n524674\t527337\t不管印度或台灣我們要負起幾個責任包括生活語言的訓練、專業的培養當然要杜絕移工被剝削只有移工不被嚴重的剝削\n539950\t556785\t那這樣子他才能夠安心的、穩定的在台灣就業,也要解決僱主,因為你們前端沒做好,然後要承擔所有完結跟這個移工完結的、語言不通的這種困擾啊。\n558246\t578073\t所以國家要承擔起這個責任所以現行我們大家都知道錯誤的引進責任引進政策裡面你說有殖病可是97%都是委託仲介那不要忘了你知道RBA\n581314\t603354\t他們對於國際品牌即使做一些集合台灣的供應鏈也接受集合那台灣的哪些廠已經說他們要對這個移工零付費模式他們要付起這個廠那個老闆說我們自己來吸收有哪幾個廠\n609383\t613464\tBNA的行為準則為電子業和它的供應鏈制定了規範它當然是拿品牌形象、國際形象、大廠、大牌有能力的先開刀\n633769\t649272\t那其實那個目的是要確保員工安全的工作環境有尊嚴而且接受尊重的工作而且要符合環保規範符合商業的誠信道德所以在這種我們的\n650433\t678593\t企業當然是大企業也願意實施移工零付費模式了那在這種狀況裡面世界爭相競逐要的這個印度輸出的勞動力勢必也是要比各國勞動的就業環境也是人家也是要比啊那你知道阿比耶這樣子說我要集合你以後台灣的企業就有一些人就說我要實施移工零付費模式人家批評了一句話什麼話你知道嗎\n680055\t683038\t這個政府比不上一個國際的NGO啦你有辦法做到零剝削嗎?移工零付費嗎?你有做到對移工的專業訓練、生活語言訓練嗎?都沒有現在一個RBA\n699079\t714933\t非官方的機構人家讓我們台灣企業帶頭在做那其實我部長要跟你講這個事不是說你比不上RBA而是說這個未來一定會成為趨勢而且一定會朝向這個方向\n716595\t744372\t所以這些企業類似企業的基本責任也要朝這個方向走所以這是一個好的時機好的時機就你印度開放的模式輸入的模式應該要將過去錯誤的引進政策導正做一個好的檢討比照像是以色列的模式由印度政府負責培訓以色列的模式主席我最後講以色列模式雖然我還有其他要講\n747186\t772436\t以色列模式是由政府．印度政府負責培訓．而且訓練內容是由台灣．要由這個輸入國來提出．而且我們要針對過去可能被詬病的環節．要去扭轉．比如說韓國將語言基本能力測驗．列為基本選工標準．進階的技能檢定．他沒有強制．但是他有這個．\n773496\t790412\t那入境以後要提供基本訓練希望還能夠依職類開設相關的職訓和中文課程我們要﹐其實不是顧到我們而已也要有利於移工來台後職場及生活適應而他適應了對僱主也是好的\n791713\t813005\t甚至我們你再積極作為你要講移工你來台以後可能還可以推如果你返回印度我們是不是引介你回到印度的台企裡面去工作優先引用、禁用然後增進兩國的經濟人才的交流然後增進兩國的外交的情誼和合作的關係\n814886\t842242\t我想剛剛講這個國對國的引進啊然後負起政府責任啊然後剛剛講政府要扛起更多的這個負責的訓練還有要求不要把不要跟過去一樣都跟你無關你只收那個四千四千多少四千五現在沒有調漲吧兩千啊然後如果你是那個3K5機制在家不是啦你們那個救安基金那一筆繳多少錢\n843221\t843501\t國對國執聘可以嗎?\n865778\t891435\t這個也是我們未來工作成績會其實這個也是我們一個重點我想現在在場的委員都會支持我們支持印度模式成為未來模式的示範然後導正過去錯誤的政策印度模式就從國對國執聘弱化私人仲介從中巧立名目的這個剝削移工的這個機會然後也證明你不是為了人力仲介業去開發這個市場的可以嗎\n896645\t898528\t法定人數不足\n","txt":"主席 各位大家午安 是不是請我們許部長好 請許部長部長好 好久不見了\n這個是我重新回到衛網委員會第二次諮詢看到你很開心我可以站在這裡我也很開心我要請教你第一件事情請教一下你知道印度的人口大概14億裡面會講英語的大概有幾%嗎?這個\n你不知道?你都要評估MOU都簽下去了要評估輸入嗎?你不知道?你收到之後還要查詢?\n我告訴你 人家都告訴你答案了你連看都沒有看過清大印度中心副主任方天賜他說許多人誤以為印度人都會講英語雖然他們官方語言是印度話跟印度語跟英語可是事實上全印度會講英語的人口大概只有10%未來在語言翻譯上將會是一項關鍵的成本那我們就看到部長\n來源地區將來我們會在這個工作層級會議來做討論\n那我的意思是說印度是一個非常多元族群的國家我們對政府要開放這個輸入的政策真的要有相當程度的了解在印度使用的語言一萬人以上使用的語言有122種\n那在這種狀況裡面為什麼講這個呢是因為這個準備的工作很龐雜你們去簽MOU你們去跟印度談然後你們自己國內要準備工作籌備會議工作籌備等等你們必須要討論的是\n要如何協助雇主乃至於全台灣的社會跟印度移工之間的文化適應還有將可能面對的衝突不要把一個好的外交突破或者是移工政策變成外交危機\n有沒有可能?當然是有可能的。臺灣僱主根據你們自己叫移工管理及運用調查統計報告你們自己勞動部做的報告裡面,你知道嗎?那個事業單位,你們自己做的有效樣本是8,562份\n事業單位的僱主4534份家庭僱主4028份你知道事業面僱主在管理和運用移工時曾遭遇到的困擾有44%都遭遇過困擾其中最大的困擾是什麼你知道嗎阿蘇丁你知道嗎保證一塊知道不一樣語言不通幾%你知道嗎事業單位的僱主幾%\n你不知道?你自己做的報告你自己...你都不知道?現在68.2%啦!\n家庭僱主方面遇到困擾的35.7%困擾的原因語言不通還是56.1%居高\n所以我們今天要講說的確語言溝通困難這個事實是存在的而且僱主這幾十年來一致都認為這是最大的障礙之一\n那我們今天這個臺灣印度研究協會他們在去年你們政策說要開放的時候也有發表聲明他們表示支持循序漸進的開放印度移工希望政府相關單位要成立專家諮詢小組匯集民間的意見進一步的去規劃引進印度移工的配套措施\n要正確的理解印度社會的特色跟台印關係的重要性但是呢你們也說未來要透過共同審議研議然後循序漸進務實辦理那現在請問一下有沒有具體擬定的工作方向有沒有要聘請專家成立這個專家諮詢小組那籌組的專家諮詢小組有沒有\n有沒有開過會還是已經成立了沒?有,報告委我們已經成立,然後3月1號也開過會開過會,你們請的專家諮詢小組是真的專家還是你們內部會邀請專家?是外交部給我們的印度專家,外交部有給我們建議的名單所以是你們內部的這個工作層級會議\n還是你們內部的：林淑芬\n你們 署長跟委員報告 因為我們現在聆聽專家在你們整體會議就是有相關跟印度方面比較了解的像一些學者那這裡面也有包含就是過去在印度沒有不要 我在問你的比例啦你們行政人員占了9成9然後邀請一個專家也是專家我們其實基本上我們都是邀請專家學者然後還有相關部會代表一起來討論\n我現在在這裡要跟部長分享因為這是一個新開發的市場老實說我現在不想問你這個問題不用切切私語我要請你專心聽\n新聞報導你留任的機率很高所以我們未來的勞工政策還仰賴於你但我現在有一個大的數十年來從開放外勞到現在大家都覺得錯誤的引進政策都已經來不及改了你剛才人家質詢問你執聘的時候你也覺得說現在的狀況已經很難走回頭路再改了\n所以過去錯誤的外勞引進政策比如說國家退位沒有政府純粹引進都靠外勞仲介引進來以後語言不通專業不專業沒有技能的訓練這個問題都丟給僱主\n所以整體的外勞政策就是由僱主和仲介去承擔國家都只負責收錢而已所以這樣過去錯誤的外勞引進政策這是一個最好的導正的時機\n因為人家質疑你說你開放這個市場引進這個市場是不是因為有另一批提供這個人力仲介業者龐大的這個利益機會然後你又要如何避免說這個純粹是造福仲介業者而已\n如果照過去錯誤的引進外勞的這種政策對啊沒錯啊訓練也是仲介啊然後仲介剝削仲介不當的管理然後沒有專業訓練然後丟給雇主承擔啊那今天這一個對印度開放印度勞工的模式啊這是一個好的契機喔從來沒做過我們MOU要簽的時候我們現在國對國要談的時候\n我們是希望說你們這個移工政策檢討的好契機在這裡國對國的職聘我們弱化私人仲介負起國家責任而國家要做到什麼責任雖然你們有談到說印度要負起這個語言的訓練等等\n不管印度或台灣我們要負起幾個責任包括生活語言的訓練、專業的培養當然要杜絕移工被剝削只有移工不被嚴重的剝削\n那這樣子他才能夠安心的、穩定的在台灣就業,也要解決僱主,因為你們前端沒做好,然後要承擔所有完結跟這個移工完結的、語言不通的這種困擾啊。\n所以國家要承擔起這個責任所以現行我們大家都知道錯誤的引進責任引進政策裡面你說有殖病可是97%都是委託仲介那不要忘了你知道RBA\n他們對於國際品牌即使做一些集合台灣的供應鏈也接受集合那台灣的哪些廠已經說他們要對這個移工零付費模式他們要付起這個廠那個老闆說我們自己來吸收有哪幾個廠\nBNA的行為準則為電子業和它的供應鏈制定了規範它當然是拿品牌形象、國際形象、大廠、大牌有能力的先開刀\n那其實那個目的是要確保員工安全的工作環境有尊嚴而且接受尊重的工作而且要符合環保規範符合商業的誠信道德所以在這種我們的\n企業當然是大企業也願意實施移工零付費模式了那在這種狀況裡面世界爭相競逐要的這個印度輸出的勞動力勢必也是要比各國勞動的就業環境也是人家也是要比啊那你知道阿比耶這樣子說我要集合你以後台灣的企業就有一些人就說我要實施移工零付費模式人家批評了一句話什麼話你知道嗎\n這個政府比不上一個國際的NGO啦你有辦法做到零剝削嗎?移工零付費嗎?你有做到對移工的專業訓練、生活語言訓練嗎?都沒有現在一個RBA\n非官方的機構人家讓我們台灣企業帶頭在做那其實我部長要跟你講這個事不是說你比不上RBA而是說這個未來一定會成為趨勢而且一定會朝向這個方向\n所以這些企業類似企業的基本責任也要朝這個方向走所以這是一個好的時機好的時機就你印度開放的模式輸入的模式應該要將過去錯誤的引進政策導正做一個好的檢討比照像是以色列的模式由印度政府負責培訓以色列的模式主席我最後講以色列模式雖然我還有其他要講\n以色列模式是由政府．印度政府負責培訓．而且訓練內容是由台灣．要由這個輸入國來提出．而且我們要針對過去可能被詬病的環節．要去扭轉．比如說韓國將語言基本能力測驗．列為基本選工標準．進階的技能檢定．他沒有強制．但是他有這個．\n那入境以後要提供基本訓練希望還能夠依職類開設相關的職訓和中文課程我們要﹐其實不是顧到我們而已也要有利於移工來台後職場及生活適應而他適應了對僱主也是好的\n甚至我們你再積極作為你要講移工你來台以後可能還可以推如果你返回印度我們是不是引介你回到印度的台企裡面去工作優先引用、禁用然後增進兩國的經濟人才的交流然後增進兩國的外交的情誼和合作的關係\n我想剛剛講這個國對國的引進啊然後負起政府責任啊然後剛剛講政府要扛起更多的這個負責的訓練還有要求不要把不要跟過去一樣都跟你無關你只收那個四千四千多少四千五現在沒有調漲吧兩千啊然後如果你是那個3K5機制在家不是啦你們那個救安基金那一筆繳多少錢\n國對國執聘可以嗎?\n這個也是我們未來工作成績會其實這個也是我們一個重點我想現在在場的委員都會支持我們支持印度模式成為未來模式的示範然後導正過去錯誤的政策印度模式就從國對國執聘弱化私人仲介從中巧立名目的這個剝削移工的這個機會然後也證明你不是為了人力仲介業去開發這個市場的可以嗎\n法定人數不足\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.896 --> 00:12.882\n主席各位大家午安是不是請我們許部長好請許部長部長好好久不見了\n\n00:20.809 --> 00:36.815\n這個是我重新回到衛網委員會第二次諮詢看到你很開心我可以站在這裡我也很開心我要請教你第一件事情請教一下你知道印度的人口大概14億裡面會講英語的大概有幾%嗎?這個\n\n00:40.765 --> 00:46.592\n你不知道?你都要評估MOU都簽下去了要評估輸入嗎?你不知道?你收到之後還要查詢?\n\n00:52.489 --> 01:18.166\n我告訴你人家都告訴你答案了你連看都沒有看過清大印度中心副主任方天賜他說許多人誤以為印度人都會講英語雖然他們官方語言是印度話跟印度語跟英語可是事實上全印度會講英語的人口大概只有10%未來在語言翻譯上將會是一項關鍵的成本那我們就看到部長\n\n01:23.209 --> 01:24.870\n來源地區將來我們會在這個工作層級會議來做討論\n\n01:51.365 --> 02:05.054\n那我的意思是說印度是一個非常多元族群的國家我們對政府要開放這個輸入的政策真的要有相當程度的了解在印度使用的語言一萬人以上使用的語言有122種\n\n02:09.557 --> 02:26.823\n那在這種狀況裡面為什麼講這個呢是因為這個準備的工作很龐雜你們去簽MOU你們去跟印度談然後你們自己國內要準備工作籌備會議工作籌備等等你們必須要討論的是\n\n02:28.564 --> 02:46.458\n要如何協助雇主乃至於全台灣的社會跟印度移工之間的文化適應還有將可能面對的衝突不要把一個好的外交突破或者是移工政策變成外交危機\n\n02:48.342 --> 03:07.266\n有沒有可能?當然是有可能的。臺灣僱主根據你們自己叫移工管理及運用調查統計報告你們自己勞動部做的報告裡面,你知道嗎?那個事業單位,你們自己做的有效樣本是8,562份\n\n03:09.987 --> 03:27.518\n事業單位的僱主4534份家庭僱主4028份你知道事業面僱主在管理和運用移工時曾遭遇到的困擾有44%都遭遇過困擾其中最大的困擾是什麼你知道嗎阿蘇丁你知道嗎保證一塊知道不一樣語言不通幾%你知道嗎事業單位的僱主幾%\n\n03:39.878 --> 03:41.621\n你不知道?你自己做的報告你自己...你都不知道?現在68.2%啦!\n\n03:49.864 --> 03:55.208\n家庭僱主方面遇到困擾的35.7%困擾的原因語言不通還是56.1%居高\n\n04:12.282 --> 04:23.795\n所以我們今天要講說的確語言溝通困難這個事實是存在的而且僱主這幾十年來一致都認為這是最大的障礙之一\n\n04:25.120 --> 04:53.040\n那我們今天這個臺灣印度研究協會他們在去年你們政策說要開放的時候也有發表聲明他們表示支持循序漸進的開放印度移工希望政府相關單位要成立專家諮詢小組匯集民間的意見進一步的去規劃引進印度移工的配套措施\n\n04:54.381 --> 05:08.166\n要正確的理解印度社會的特色跟台印關係的重要性但是呢你們也說未來要透過共同審議研議然後循序漸進務實辦理那現在請問一下有沒有具體擬定的工作方向有沒有要聘請專家成立這個專家諮詢小組那籌組的專家諮詢小組有沒有\n\n05:19.289 --> 05:41.215\n有沒有開過會還是已經成立了沒?有,報告委我們已經成立,然後3月1號也開過會開過會,你們請的專家諮詢小組是真的專家還是你們內部會邀請專家?是外交部給我們的印度專家,外交部有給我們建議的名單所以是你們內部的這個工作層級會議\n\n05:43.639 --> 05:45.082\n還是你們內部的：林淑芬\n\n05:57.080 --> 06:23.140\n你們署長跟委員報告因為我們現在聆聽專家在你們整體會議就是有相關跟印度方面比較了解的像一些學者那這裡面也有包含就是過去在印度沒有不要我在問你的比例啦你們行政人員占了9成9然後邀請一個專家也是專家我們其實基本上我們都是邀請專家學者然後還有相關部會代表一起來討論\n\n06:25.826 --> 06:30.430\n我現在在這裡要跟部長分享因為這是一個新開發的市場老實說我現在不想問你這個問題不用切切私語我要請你專心聽\n\n06:43.079 --> 07:06.947\n新聞報導你留任的機率很高所以我們未來的勞工政策還仰賴於你但我現在有一個大的數十年來從開放外勞到現在大家都覺得錯誤的引進政策都已經來不及改了你剛才人家質詢問你執聘的時候你也覺得說現在的狀況已經很難走回頭路再改了\n\n07:08.087 --> 07:23.053\n所以過去錯誤的外勞引進政策比如說國家退位沒有政府純粹引進都靠外勞仲介引進來以後語言不通專業不專業沒有技能的訓練這個問題都丟給僱主\n\n07:25.954 --> 07:29.935\n所以整體的外勞政策就是由僱主和仲介去承擔國家都只負責收錢而已所以這樣過去錯誤的外勞引進政策這是一個最好的導正的時機\n\n07:43.260 --> 08:00.648\n因為人家質疑你說你開放這個市場引進這個市場是不是因為有另一批提供這個人力仲介業者龐大的這個利益機會然後你又要如何避免說這個純粹是造福仲介業者而已\n\n08:01.408 --> 08:09.113\n如果照過去錯誤的引進外勞的這種政策對啊沒錯啊訓練也是仲介啊然後仲介剝削仲介不當的管理然後沒有專業訓練然後丟給雇主承擔啊那今天這一個對印度開放印度勞工的模式啊這是一個好的契機喔從來沒做過我們MOU要簽的時候我們現在國對國要談的時候\n\n08:26.185 --> 08:32.708\n我們是希望說你們這個移工政策檢討的好契機在這裡國對國的職聘我們弱化私人仲介負起國家責任而國家要做到什麼責任雖然你們有談到說印度要負起這個語言的訓練等等\n\n08:44.674 --> 08:47.337\n不管印度或台灣我們要負起幾個責任包括生活語言的訓練、專業的培養當然要杜絕移工被剝削只有移工不被嚴重的剝削\n\n08:59.950 --> 09:16.785\n那這樣子他才能夠安心的、穩定的在台灣就業,也要解決僱主,因為你們前端沒做好,然後要承擔所有完結跟這個移工完結的、語言不通的這種困擾啊。\n\n09:18.246 --> 09:38.073\n所以國家要承擔起這個責任所以現行我們大家都知道錯誤的引進責任引進政策裡面你說有殖病可是97%都是委託仲介那不要忘了你知道RBA\n\n09:41.314 --> 10:03.354\n他們對於國際品牌即使做一些集合台灣的供應鏈也接受集合那台灣的哪些廠已經說他們要對這個移工零付費模式他們要付起這個廠那個老闆說我們自己來吸收有哪幾個廠\n\n10:09.383 --> 10:13.464\nBNA的行為準則為電子業和它的供應鏈制定了規範它當然是拿品牌形象、國際形象、大廠、大牌有能力的先開刀\n\n10:33.769 --> 10:49.272\n那其實那個目的是要確保員工安全的工作環境有尊嚴而且接受尊重的工作而且要符合環保規範符合商業的誠信道德所以在這種我們的\n\n10:50.433 --> 11:18.593\n企業當然是大企業也願意實施移工零付費模式了那在這種狀況裡面世界爭相競逐要的這個印度輸出的勞動力勢必也是要比各國勞動的就業環境也是人家也是要比啊那你知道阿比耶這樣子說我要集合你以後台灣的企業就有一些人就說我要實施移工零付費模式人家批評了一句話什麼話你知道嗎\n\n11:20.055 --> 11:23.038\n這個政府比不上一個國際的NGO啦你有辦法做到零剝削嗎?移工零付費嗎?你有做到對移工的專業訓練、生活語言訓練嗎?都沒有現在一個RBA\n\n11:39.079 --> 11:54.933\n非官方的機構人家讓我們台灣企業帶頭在做那其實我部長要跟你講這個事不是說你比不上RBA而是說這個未來一定會成為趨勢而且一定會朝向這個方向\n\n11:56.595 --> 12:24.372\n所以這些企業類似企業的基本責任也要朝這個方向走所以這是一個好的時機好的時機就你印度開放的模式輸入的模式應該要將過去錯誤的引進政策導正做一個好的檢討比照像是以色列的模式由印度政府負責培訓以色列的模式主席我最後講以色列模式雖然我還有其他要講\n\n12:27.186 --> 12:52.436\n以色列模式是由政府．印度政府負責培訓．而且訓練內容是由台灣．要由這個輸入國來提出．而且我們要針對過去可能被詬病的環節．要去扭轉．比如說韓國將語言基本能力測驗．列為基本選工標準．進階的技能檢定．他沒有強制．但是他有這個．\n\n12:53.496 --> 13:10.412\n那入境以後要提供基本訓練希望還能夠依職類開設相關的職訓和中文課程我們要﹐其實不是顧到我們而已也要有利於移工來台後職場及生活適應而他適應了對僱主也是好的\n\n13:11.713 --> 13:33.005\n甚至我們你再積極作為你要講移工你來台以後可能還可以推如果你返回印度我們是不是引介你回到印度的台企裡面去工作優先引用、禁用然後增進兩國的經濟人才的交流然後增進兩國的外交的情誼和合作的關係\n\n13:34.886 --> 14:02.242\n我想剛剛講這個國對國的引進啊然後負起政府責任啊然後剛剛講政府要扛起更多的這個負責的訓練還有要求不要把不要跟過去一樣都跟你無關你只收那個四千四千多少四千五現在沒有調漲吧兩千啊然後如果你是那個3K5機制在家不是啦你們那個救安基金那一筆繳多少錢\n\n14:03.221 --> 14:03.501\n國對國執聘可以嗎?\n\n14:25.778 --> 14:51.435\n這個也是我們未來工作成績會其實這個也是我們一個重點我想現在在場的委員都會支持我們支持印度模式成為未來模式的示範然後導正過去錯誤的政策印度模式就從國對國執聘弱化私人仲介從中巧立名目的這個剝削移工的這個機會然後也證明你不是為了人力仲介業去開發這個市場的可以嗎\n\n14:56.645 --> 14:58.528\n法定人數不足\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.896,"end":12.882,"text":"主席 各位大家午安 是不是請我們許部長好 請許部長部長好 好久不見了"},{"start":20.809,"end":36.815,"text":"這個是我重新回到衛網委員會第二次諮詢看到你很開心我可以站在這裡我也很開心我要請教你第一件事情請教一下你知道印度的人口大概14億裡面會講英語的大概有幾%嗎?這個"},{"start":40.765,"end":46.592,"text":"你不知道?你都要評估MOU都簽下去了要評估輸入嗎?你不知道?你收到之後還要查詢?"},{"start":52.489,"end":78.166,"text":"我告訴你 人家都告訴你答案了你連看都沒有看過清大印度中心副主任方天賜他說許多人誤以為印度人都會講英語雖然他們官方語言是印度話跟印度語跟英語可是事實上全印度會講英語的人口大概只有10%未來在語言翻譯上將會是一項關鍵的成本那我們就看到部長"},{"start":83.209,"end":84.87,"text":"來源地區將來我們會在這個工作層級會議來做討論"},{"start":111.365,"end":125.054,"text":"那我的意思是說印度是一個非常多元族群的國家我們對政府要開放這個輸入的政策真的要有相當程度的了解在印度使用的語言一萬人以上使用的語言有122種"},{"start":129.557,"end":146.823,"text":"那在這種狀況裡面為什麼講這個呢是因為這個準備的工作很龐雜你們去簽MOU你們去跟印度談然後你們自己國內要準備工作籌備會議工作籌備等等你們必須要討論的是"},{"start":148.564,"end":166.458,"text":"要如何協助雇主乃至於全台灣的社會跟印度移工之間的文化適應還有將可能面對的衝突不要把一個好的外交突破或者是移工政策變成外交危機"},{"start":168.342,"end":187.266,"text":"有沒有可能?當然是有可能的。臺灣僱主根據你們自己叫移工管理及運用調查統計報告你們自己勞動部做的報告裡面,你知道嗎?那個事業單位,你們自己做的有效樣本是8,562份"},{"start":189.987,"end":207.518,"text":"事業單位的僱主4534份家庭僱主4028份你知道事業面僱主在管理和運用移工時曾遭遇到的困擾有44%都遭遇過困擾其中最大的困擾是什麼你知道嗎阿蘇丁你知道嗎保證一塊知道不一樣語言不通幾%你知道嗎事業單位的僱主幾%"},{"start":219.878,"end":221.621,"text":"你不知道?你自己做的報告你自己...你都不知道?現在68.2%啦!"},{"start":229.864,"end":235.208,"text":"家庭僱主方面遇到困擾的35.7%困擾的原因語言不通還是56.1%居高"},{"start":252.282,"end":263.795,"text":"所以我們今天要講說的確語言溝通困難這個事實是存在的而且僱主這幾十年來一致都認為這是最大的障礙之一"},{"start":265.12,"end":293.04,"text":"那我們今天這個臺灣印度研究協會他們在去年你們政策說要開放的時候也有發表聲明他們表示支持循序漸進的開放印度移工希望政府相關單位要成立專家諮詢小組匯集民間的意見進一步的去規劃引進印度移工的配套措施"},{"start":294.381,"end":308.166,"text":"要正確的理解印度社會的特色跟台印關係的重要性但是呢你們也說未來要透過共同審議研議然後循序漸進務實辦理那現在請問一下有沒有具體擬定的工作方向有沒有要聘請專家成立這個專家諮詢小組那籌組的專家諮詢小組有沒有"},{"start":319.289,"end":341.215,"text":"有沒有開過會還是已經成立了沒?有,報告委我們已經成立,然後3月1號也開過會開過會,你們請的專家諮詢小組是真的專家還是你們內部會邀請專家?是外交部給我們的印度專家,外交部有給我們建議的名單所以是你們內部的這個工作層級會議"},{"start":343.639,"end":345.082,"text":"還是你們內部的：林淑芬"},{"start":357.08,"end":383.14,"text":"你們 署長跟委員報告 因為我們現在聆聽專家在你們整體會議就是有相關跟印度方面比較了解的像一些學者那這裡面也有包含就是過去在印度沒有不要 我在問你的比例啦你們行政人員占了9成9然後邀請一個專家也是專家我們其實基本上我們都是邀請專家學者然後還有相關部會代表一起來討論"},{"start":385.826,"end":390.43,"text":"我現在在這裡要跟部長分享因為這是一個新開發的市場老實說我現在不想問你這個問題不用切切私語我要請你專心聽"},{"start":403.079,"end":426.947,"text":"新聞報導你留任的機率很高所以我們未來的勞工政策還仰賴於你但我現在有一個大的數十年來從開放外勞到現在大家都覺得錯誤的引進政策都已經來不及改了你剛才人家質詢問你執聘的時候你也覺得說現在的狀況已經很難走回頭路再改了"},{"start":428.087,"end":443.053,"text":"所以過去錯誤的外勞引進政策比如說國家退位沒有政府純粹引進都靠外勞仲介引進來以後語言不通專業不專業沒有技能的訓練這個問題都丟給僱主"},{"start":445.954,"end":449.935,"text":"所以整體的外勞政策就是由僱主和仲介去承擔國家都只負責收錢而已所以這樣過去錯誤的外勞引進政策這是一個最好的導正的時機"},{"start":463.26,"end":480.648,"text":"因為人家質疑你說你開放這個市場引進這個市場是不是因為有另一批提供這個人力仲介業者龐大的這個利益機會然後你又要如何避免說這個純粹是造福仲介業者而已"},{"start":481.408,"end":489.113,"text":"如果照過去錯誤的引進外勞的這種政策對啊沒錯啊訓練也是仲介啊然後仲介剝削仲介不當的管理然後沒有專業訓練然後丟給雇主承擔啊那今天這一個對印度開放印度勞工的模式啊這是一個好的契機喔從來沒做過我們MOU要簽的時候我們現在國對國要談的時候"},{"start":506.185,"end":512.708,"text":"我們是希望說你們這個移工政策檢討的好契機在這裡國對國的職聘我們弱化私人仲介負起國家責任而國家要做到什麼責任雖然你們有談到說印度要負起這個語言的訓練等等"},{"start":524.674,"end":527.337,"text":"不管印度或台灣我們要負起幾個責任包括生活語言的訓練、專業的培養當然要杜絕移工被剝削只有移工不被嚴重的剝削"},{"start":539.95,"end":556.785,"text":"那這樣子他才能夠安心的、穩定的在台灣就業,也要解決僱主,因為你們前端沒做好,然後要承擔所有完結跟這個移工完結的、語言不通的這種困擾啊。"},{"start":558.246,"end":578.073,"text":"所以國家要承擔起這個責任所以現行我們大家都知道錯誤的引進責任引進政策裡面你說有殖病可是97%都是委託仲介那不要忘了你知道RBA"},{"start":581.314,"end":603.354,"text":"他們對於國際品牌即使做一些集合台灣的供應鏈也接受集合那台灣的哪些廠已經說他們要對這個移工零付費模式他們要付起這個廠那個老闆說我們自己來吸收有哪幾個廠"},{"start":609.383,"end":613.464,"text":"BNA的行為準則為電子業和它的供應鏈制定了規範它當然是拿品牌形象、國際形象、大廠、大牌有能力的先開刀"},{"start":633.769,"end":649.272,"text":"那其實那個目的是要確保員工安全的工作環境有尊嚴而且接受尊重的工作而且要符合環保規範符合商業的誠信道德所以在這種我們的"},{"start":650.433,"end":678.593,"text":"企業當然是大企業也願意實施移工零付費模式了那在這種狀況裡面世界爭相競逐要的這個印度輸出的勞動力勢必也是要比各國勞動的就業環境也是人家也是要比啊那你知道阿比耶這樣子說我要集合你以後台灣的企業就有一些人就說我要實施移工零付費模式人家批評了一句話什麼話你知道嗎"},{"start":680.055,"end":683.038,"text":"這個政府比不上一個國際的NGO啦你有辦法做到零剝削嗎?移工零付費嗎?你有做到對移工的專業訓練、生活語言訓練嗎?都沒有現在一個RBA"},{"start":699.079,"end":714.933,"text":"非官方的機構人家讓我們台灣企業帶頭在做那其實我部長要跟你講這個事不是說你比不上RBA而是說這個未來一定會成為趨勢而且一定會朝向這個方向"},{"start":716.595,"end":744.372,"text":"所以這些企業類似企業的基本責任也要朝這個方向走所以這是一個好的時機好的時機就你印度開放的模式輸入的模式應該要將過去錯誤的引進政策導正做一個好的檢討比照像是以色列的模式由印度政府負責培訓以色列的模式主席我最後講以色列模式雖然我還有其他要講"},{"start":747.186,"end":772.436,"text":"以色列模式是由政府．印度政府負責培訓．而且訓練內容是由台灣．要由這個輸入國來提出．而且我們要針對過去可能被詬病的環節．要去扭轉．比如說韓國將語言基本能力測驗．列為基本選工標準．進階的技能檢定．他沒有強制．但是他有這個．"},{"start":773.496,"end":790.412,"text":"那入境以後要提供基本訓練希望還能夠依職類開設相關的職訓和中文課程我們要﹐其實不是顧到我們而已也要有利於移工來台後職場及生活適應而他適應了對僱主也是好的"},{"start":791.713,"end":813.005,"text":"甚至我們你再積極作為你要講移工你來台以後可能還可以推如果你返回印度我們是不是引介你回到印度的台企裡面去工作優先引用、禁用然後增進兩國的經濟人才的交流然後增進兩國的外交的情誼和合作的關係"},{"start":814.886,"end":842.242,"text":"我想剛剛講這個國對國的引進啊然後負起政府責任啊然後剛剛講政府要扛起更多的這個負責的訓練還有要求不要把不要跟過去一樣都跟你無關你只收那個四千四千多少四千五現在沒有調漲吧兩千啊然後如果你是那個3K5機制在家不是啦你們那個救安基金那一筆繳多少錢"},{"start":843.221,"end":843.501,"text":"國對國執聘可以嗎?"},{"start":865.778,"end":891.435,"text":"這個也是我們未來工作成績會其實這個也是我們一個重點我想現在在場的委員都會支持我們支持印度模式成為未來模式的示範然後導正過去錯誤的政策印度模式就從國對國執聘弱化私人仲介從中巧立名目的這個剝削移工的這個機會然後也證明你不是為了人力仲介業去開發這個市場的可以嗎"},{"start":896.645,"end":898.528,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}}}}