{"id":149424,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149424","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172ff5d3a4c244f2ab10b97b2be93641c974f8ba9b0039caa7a644b1c410c0429cd25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"12:20:32 - 12:28:45","影片長度":"00:08:13","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請大陸委員會主任委員及交通部次長、交通部觀光署署長就「赴陸旅遊團停招：決策過程與後續影響評估」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-3"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":493,"end_time":"2024-03-06T12:28:45+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T12:20:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1161,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（12時20分）有請交通部次長，謝謝。"],["主席：好，我們有請次長。"],["林次長國顯：沈委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝主席、謝謝次長。非本委只有8分鐘，所以我快速帶過。因為剛好就在前幾天也有提到中國的灰色地帶作戰，灰色地帶作戰在前面我們提到的是比較偏軍事的層面，軍事的層面有某種程度還是要我們怎麼做預判、怎麼做透明化，今天面臨的比較不是偏軍事的狀況，但我認為還是有很多地方可以適用。這邊先來看一下，畢竟在中國對各個國家的灰色地帶作戰中，現在對臺灣是最多的。通常他們的作戰分成四個不同的層面，有軍事的、有我比較擅長的資訊類的、有經濟的，也有地緣政治的。我們現在面臨的當然比較多是經濟相關，其實以往我們遇到的比較多可能是農產品，他們簽契作等等之類的，所以在這邊我們稍微整理了歷年來他們在經濟上面對我們的壓迫，包含臺灣豬、鳳梨等等，這邊我就不多唸。在他們的手段當中，我發現在我們的應對……當然今天經濟部並不在場，但是我們很多時候都是比較被動的回應，譬如說他今天弄的是鳳梨，那我們解決的就是鳳梨，想辦法透過外銷的方式讓它可以銷到日本之類的。今天我們遇到的狀況又再更往前進一步，因為它涉及的已經不只是經濟的利益，我相信在前面很多的委員也都有提到業者的損失等等；但這次還有牽涉到國人旅遊，簡單來講旅遊本來就有到哪裡的自由，當然在對於比較危險的地方會有不同的顏色，請國人不要前往。但是現在我們所做的手段變得比較不一樣，因為中國先限制團客，我們現在用的方式是依據對等原則，既然陸方限制團客，我們也用團客相關的限制。所以，第一個我想問，在做協調機制的過程當中所謂的對等原則，有必要一定都是跟他相同的手段嗎？譬如說他今天用的是旅遊，我們就一定要用旅遊反制，還是說可以用其他的手段，這個有沒有在當時的評估狀況？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，其實您提的很重要，政府在處理事情不會只用一個單一手段，會綜合各方的訊息跟資訊，所以即使大陸禁止，其實他不只禁止團客，他連自由行都沒有開放。對我們來講，我們是沒有禁止自由行到大陸，所以這個部分我們比他開放很多，我們也希望他們對等開放，自由行也盡量開放。團客部分因為涉及到不特定人士赴陌生地方的旅遊，所以基本上會有旅行社的業者來帶團，帶團相對是比自由行複雜一點。自由行一般來講就是自己要去某個地方，自己要判斷那個地方有沒有不方便，有沒有安全疑慮，到底為什麼目的而且有選擇性，也不一定到大陸，也可以到東北亞、東南亞甚至歐美，所以自由選擇比較高；團客也有這樣的選擇性，但是基本上還是受旅行業管理規則的限制。所以您提的沒有錯，這些議題都是不同的訊息，包含今年初的外交事件、M503事件，導致政府綜合考慮要做這樣的決定。"],["沈委員伯洋：所以是不是可以這樣理解，就是我們在應對的時候，其實不僅僅是中國團客這一件事情而已，是在整個政治的研判當中，包含M503，甚至包含他們其他外交的施壓，所以我們採取這個手段。"],["林次長國顯：這個就會綜合來考慮。"],["沈委員伯洋：好。再來我想問的就是，因為有業者利益的問題，前面應該有不少人提到有沒有給業者足夠的反應時間？以及業者對於做中國團客相關的風險在哪裡？像以往就會有民間團體建議說是不是他們應該要有某種程度的保險，是不是政府有可能來擬定跟規劃保險。畢竟跟中國做生意，跟中國有任何經濟上的往來它是有風險的事情；我知道陸委會一直以來也都會警告國人這是一個風險。但是風險有了之後有些人他願意take這個風險；有了風險之後常常會想到補償嘛，如果說我們已經告訴國人有這個風險，結果他還願意去做，到底是要由政府來補償？還是由市場機制來決定？請問有這樣的保險機制的一個研擬規劃，會不會是一個比較適當的做法？想要就教交通部或者陸委會都可以。"],["林次長國顯：由觀光署來報告。"],["沈委員伯洋：沒問題，請。"],["周副署長延彰：報告委員，如果旅行社組團就可以保旅行社責任險、旅責險，自由行的旅客到各地方去旅行的話當然可以保旅遊平安險啊，或者是不便險之類的……"],["沈委員伯洋：那業者本身的保險，業者自己的保險呢？"],["周副署長廷彰：因為業者目前也有加入這個品保協會，品保協會就是來保障整體參團消費者的權益。"],["沈委員伯洋：我們今天如果層次再拉高一點，就是對於他們在經營這件事業的風險，我指的是這件事情，我在想未來我們會不會有機會來討論這一件，因為時間的關係，我們就先跳過去。接下來我想要問的，就是我們現在要對未來做一些研判，其實團客這件事情，如禁止旅遊之類的，以往就有發生過；但如果他們想要推的方式─好，我現在開始開放中國的團客來到臺灣，但我只開放承認九二共識的特定縣市，或是我只開放金門─如果他們今天提出這樣的方案，我們的對策會是什麼？"],["周副署長廷彰：這個我們在去年8月24號的時候就已經第二次提到，要在對等的情況下去做兩岸觀光的交流。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為我們現在害怕的是，對我們來講，這本來應該就像我們現在這邊討論的，它是中央主管的事務，他們如果把它降成是一個地方的事務，由地方來決定，決定了以後，成為既成事實，那麼就會跟現在金門海域一樣，造成既成事實，就會形成一個新的框架，這個框架對我們執政來講，一定會有一些困擾。所以我覺得我們可以先預想：如果這樣的狀況發生，我們該怎麼辦？這是我個人的一個建議。","最後，我知道很多人在討論這次我們禁團的法源問題，我們找到的旅遊觀光條例或者發展觀光條例，它本身因為有罰則規定，看起來很像是一個法源，但畢竟它當時在設計的時候，絕對不是直接針對這個狀況。如果我們今天不斷的要反制對方，不管是軍事，還是經濟的壓迫，今天討論的是經濟，而我們現在比較欠缺的是一個比較概括性的法源，也就是說我們的反制措施如果沒有一個更高的法源基礎，那麼每一次遇到這些狀況的時候，都會有點捉襟見肘，就是我們要一直來找，到底是哪一個法源適合使用，這個一定也會造成國人的疑慮。所以就我們剛剛講的這個部分，對未來的一個研判，還有陸委會以後在針對這類事情的反制措施，會不會有一個新的法源，能夠建議我們這邊立法者來進行，也希望能看到法制相關的一些研析，然後我們可以來討論這件事情。因為時間到了，我就先講到這邊。謝謝。"],["周副署長廷彰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：非常謝謝沈伯洋委員的質詢，謝謝次長、副署長。","繼續請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-3","speakers":["高金素梅","徐欣瑩","王美惠","吳琪銘","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","張智倫","丁學忠","麥玉珍","鄭天財Sra 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\"那包含今年初的這個外交事件M503事件導致政府綜合考慮要做這樣的決定那所以是不是可以這樣理解就是在於說我們在應對的時候其實不僅僅是中國團客這一件事情而已是在整個政治的研判當中包含這個M503甚至包含他們外交其他的施壓所以我們採取這個手段\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 220.31, \"end\": 220.53, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 220.53, \"end\": 220.69, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"含\", \"start\": 220.69, \"end\": 220.891, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 220.891, \"end\": 221.011, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 221.011, \"end\": 221.251, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"初\", \"start\": 221.251, \"end\": 221.471, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 221.471, \"end\": 222.052, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 222.052, \"end\": 222.212, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 222.212, \"end\": 222.412, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 222.412, \"end\": 222.592, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 222.592, \"end\": 223.073, \"score\": 0.986}, 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{\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 491.86, \"end\": 491.88, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,710 --> 00:00:17,790\n好,謝謝主席,謝謝次長。那這個,一樣非本委我們只有8分鐘,所以我想說也是快速帶過。那,我們非本委8分鐘。所以這個,就是因為剛好就在前幾天這邊也有提到這個中國的灰色地帶作戰。\n\n2\n00:00:18,931 --> 00:00:42,552\n灰色地帶作戰在前面我們提到是比較偏軍事的層面那軍事的層面有某種程度還是要我們怎麼預判要怎麼做透明化但現在我們面臨的今天的比較不是偏軍事的狀況但我認為還是有很多地方是可以適用那在這邊呢我們先來看一下就是說因為畢竟中國的這個灰色地帶作戰在對各個國家那現在對台灣是最多的\n\n3\n00:00:43,392 --> 00:00:58,732\n通常來講他們的作戰分成四個不同的層面有軍事的有我比較擅長的資訊類的然後有經濟的然後還有地緣政治的那我們現在面臨的當然比較多是經濟相關那經濟相關其實以往我們遇到的比較多可能是農產品\n\n4\n00:00:59,974 --> 00:01:02,977\n在這些他們的手段當中我發現在我們的應對當然這邊我們今天經濟部並不在場但是我們很多時候都是比較被動的回應\n\n5\n00:01:24,657 --> 00:01:47,411\n例如說他今天弄的是鳳梨那我們解決的就是鳳梨那想辦法透過外銷的方式讓他可以銷到日本等等之類的那今天我們遇到的狀況呢又再更往前進一步因為他已經不只指示經濟的利益那我相信在前面很多的委員也都有提到業者的損失等等之類的但這次還有牽涉到就是國人必須他旅遊嘛\n\n6\n00:01:47,811 --> 00:02:03,966\n所以旅遊簡單來講它本來就有到哪裡的自由那我們當然在對於比較危險的地方我們會有不同的顏色請國人不要前往但是現在我們所做的手段變得比較不一樣是因為中國先限制了團客那我們現在用的方式是依據這個對等原則\n\n7\n00:02:05,447 --> 00:02:26,807\n然後說那既然你是限制團客那我們也用團客相關的限制所以第一個我想問一下就是在我們做這個協調機制的過程當中這個所謂的對等原則有必要是一定都是要跟他相同的手段嗎?譬如說他今天用的是旅遊我們就一定要用旅遊反制還是說我們可以用其他的手段這個有沒有在當時的評估狀況?\n\n8\n00:02:29,211 --> 00:02:45,004\n報告委員其實您提的很重要政府在處理事情不會只用一個單一手段會綜合各方的訊息跟資訊所以即使大陸禁止其實它不只禁止團客它連自由行動都沒有開放\n\n9\n00:02:45,965 --> 00:03:10,523\n那對我們來講我們是沒有禁止自由行到大陸所以這個部分我們比他開放很多我們也希望他們對等開放自由行也盡量開放那團課的部分因為涉及到不特定人士赴陌生地方的旅遊所以基本上會有旅行社業者來帶團那這個在帶團的過程中間相對來講是比自由行\n\n10\n00:03:11,804 --> 00:03:13,524\n所以您提的沒有錯這些議題都是不同的訊息\n\n11\n00:03:40,310 --> 00:04:00,090\n那包含今年初的這個外交事件M503事件導致政府綜合考慮要做這樣的決定那所以是不是可以這樣理解就是在於說我們在應對的時候其實不僅僅是中國團客這一件事情而已是在整個政治的研判當中包含這個M503甚至包含他們外交其他的施壓所以我們採取這個手段\n\n12\n00:04:03,276 --> 00:04:27,784\n再來我想問的就是因為第一個我們剛剛其實有業者的利益的問題所以當然我們會有這個就是前面應該也有不少人提到就是有沒有給業者足夠的反應時間以及業者對於自己做這個中國這個團課他相關的這一個風險在哪裡像以往就會有民間團體建議說那是不是他們應該要有某種程度的保險這個保險是不是政府有可能來擬定跟規劃\n\n13\n00:04:28,704 --> 00:04:42,119\n因為畢竟跟中國做生意跟中國有任何的經濟上的往來它是有風險的事情我知道陸委會一直以來也都會警告國人這是一個風險但是風險有了之後有些人他願意take這個風險那有了風險之後我們常常會想到補償\n\n14\n00:04:43,641 --> 00:04:44,242\n觀光署來跟您報告報告委員\n\n15\n00:05:06,311 --> 00:05:28,759\n那如果旅行社在組團的話他就可以這個保那個旅行社責任險旅責險那我們的自由行的旅客如果說就是到各地方去旅行的話他當然也可以保這種的這樣的那個旅遊平安險啊或者是業者本身的保險業者自己的保險\n\n16\n00:05:31,616 --> 00:05:57,172\n那這樣因為業者目前也有加入這個品保協會那品保協會就是來保障整體的那個消費者參團的消費者的權益那我們今天如果說層次要拉高一點就是對於他們在經營這件事業的風險我指的是這一件事情那我是在想說會不會未來我們有機會來討論這件那因為時間關係我們先再過去那接下來我想要問的就是我們現在要對未來做一些研判\n\n17\n00:05:57,452 --> 00:05:57,712\n沈伯洋議員\n\n18\n00:06:23,942 --> 00:06:49,605\n我想我們在去年的8月24號的時候就一定要是在要平等的一個對等的一個情況之下來去做一個兩岸觀光的一個交流因為我們現在害怕就是說因為對我們來講這本來應該就是像我們現在在這邊討論它是一個中央主管的事務那他如果把它降成它是一個地方的事務由地方來決定然後決定了以後造成了一個繼承事實\n\n19\n00:06:50,225 --> 00:06:50,465\n進行專題報告：沈伯洋\n\n20\n00:07:10,820 --> 00:07:32,626\n我們找到這個旅遊觀光條例或者發展觀光條例它本身因為它是有法則的規定它看起來很像是一個法源但它畢竟當時在設計的時候絕對不是直接在針對這個狀況所以如果我們今天不斷的要反制對方不管是軍事還是經濟的壓迫我們今天討論的是經濟我們現在比較欠缺的反而是一個比較概括性的法源\n\n21\n00:07:33,266 --> 00:08:02,279\n也就是說我們反制措施如果沒有一個更高的法源基礎會變成我們每一次遇到這些狀況的時候都會有點捉襟見肘就是我們要一直來看說那到底是哪一個法源適合使用那這個一定也會造成國人的疑慮所以我們是希望說就是剛剛講的這個對未來的一個研判然後以及我覺得可能是陸委會對於以後我們針對這樣事情的反制措施的會不會有一個新的法源能夠建議我們這邊立法者來進行也希望可能會有看\n\n22\n00:08:02,739 --> 00:08:11,880\n法治相關的可能有相關的一些演習然後我們可以來討論這件事情那因為時間到了就先講到這邊謝謝好謝謝委員好非常謝謝沈伯洋委員的質詢謝謝謝謝次長先生\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n710\t17790\t好,謝謝主席,謝謝次長。那這個,一樣非本委我們只有8分鐘,所以我想說也是快速帶過。那,我們非本委8分鐘。所以這個,就是因為剛好就在前幾天這邊也有提到這個中國的灰色地帶作戰。\n18931\t42552\t灰色地帶作戰在前面我們提到是比較偏軍事的層面那軍事的層面有某種程度還是要我們怎麼預判要怎麼做透明化但現在我們面臨的今天的比較不是偏軍事的狀況但我認為還是有很多地方是可以適用那在這邊呢我們先來看一下就是說因為畢竟中國的這個灰色地帶作戰在對各個國家那現在對台灣是最多的\n43392\t58732\t通常來講他們的作戰分成四個不同的層面有軍事的有我比較擅長的資訊類的然後有經濟的然後還有地緣政治的那我們現在面臨的當然比較多是經濟相關那經濟相關其實以往我們遇到的比較多可能是農產品\n59974\t62977\t在這些他們的手段當中我發現在我們的應對當然這邊我們今天經濟部並不在場但是我們很多時候都是比較被動的回應\n84657\t107411\t例如說他今天弄的是鳳梨那我們解決的就是鳳梨那想辦法透過外銷的方式讓他可以銷到日本等等之類的那今天我們遇到的狀況呢又再更往前進一步因為他已經不只指示經濟的利益那我相信在前面很多的委員也都有提到業者的損失等等之類的但這次還有牽涉到就是國人必須他旅遊嘛\n107811\t123966\t所以旅遊簡單來講它本來就有到哪裡的自由那我們當然在對於比較危險的地方我們會有不同的顏色請國人不要前往但是現在我們所做的手段變得比較不一樣是因為中國先限制了團客那我們現在用的方式是依據這個對等原則\n125447\t146807\t然後說那既然你是限制團客那我們也用團客相關的限制所以第一個我想問一下就是在我們做這個協調機制的過程當中這個所謂的對等原則有必要是一定都是要跟他相同的手段嗎?譬如說他今天用的是旅遊我們就一定要用旅遊反制還是說我們可以用其他的手段這個有沒有在當時的評估狀況?\n149211\t165004\t報告委員其實您提的很重要政府在處理事情不會只用一個單一手段會綜合各方的訊息跟資訊所以即使大陸禁止其實它不只禁止團客它連自由行動都沒有開放\n165965\t190523\t那對我們來講我們是沒有禁止自由行到大陸所以這個部分我們比他開放很多我們也希望他們對等開放自由行也盡量開放那團課的部分因為涉及到不特定人士赴陌生地方的旅遊所以基本上會有旅行社業者來帶團那這個在帶團的過程中間相對來講是比自由行\n191804\t193524\t所以您提的沒有錯這些議題都是不同的訊息\n220310\t240090\t那包含今年初的這個外交事件M503事件導致政府綜合考慮要做這樣的決定那所以是不是可以這樣理解就是在於說我們在應對的時候其實不僅僅是中國團客這一件事情而已是在整個政治的研判當中包含這個M503甚至包含他們外交其他的施壓所以我們採取這個手段\n243276\t267784\t再來我想問的就是因為第一個我們剛剛其實有業者的利益的問題所以當然我們會有這個就是前面應該也有不少人提到就是有沒有給業者足夠的反應時間以及業者對於自己做這個中國這個團課他相關的這一個風險在哪裡像以往就會有民間團體建議說那是不是他們應該要有某種程度的保險這個保險是不是政府有可能來擬定跟規劃\n268704\t282119\t因為畢竟跟中國做生意跟中國有任何的經濟上的往來它是有風險的事情我知道陸委會一直以來也都會警告國人這是一個風險但是風險有了之後有些人他願意take這個風險那有了風險之後我們常常會想到補償\n283641\t284242\t觀光署來跟您報告報告委員\n306311\t328759\t那如果旅行社在組團的話他就可以這個保那個旅行社責任險旅責險那我們的自由行的旅客如果說就是到各地方去旅行的話他當然也可以保這種的這樣的那個旅遊平安險啊或者是業者本身的保險業者自己的保險\n331616\t357172\t那這樣因為業者目前也有加入這個品保協會那品保協會就是來保障整體的那個消費者參團的消費者的權益那我們今天如果說層次要拉高一點就是對於他們在經營這件事業的風險我指的是這一件事情那我是在想說會不會未來我們有機會來討論這件那因為時間關係我們先再過去那接下來我想要問的就是我們現在要對未來做一些研判\n357452\t357712\t沈伯洋議員\n383942\t409605\t我想我們在去年的8月24號的時候就一定要是在要平等的一個對等的一個情況之下來去做一個兩岸觀光的一個交流因為我們現在害怕就是說因為對我們來講這本來應該就是像我們現在在這邊討論它是一個中央主管的事務那他如果把它降成它是一個地方的事務由地方來決定然後決定了以後造成了一個繼承事實\n410225\t410465\t進行專題報告：沈伯洋\n430820\t452626\t我們找到這個旅遊觀光條例或者發展觀光條例它本身因為它是有法則的規定它看起來很像是一個法源但它畢竟當時在設計的時候絕對不是直接在針對這個狀況所以如果我們今天不斷的要反制對方不管是軍事還是經濟的壓迫我們今天討論的是經濟我們現在比較欠缺的反而是一個比較概括性的法源\n453266\t482279\t也就是說我們反制措施如果沒有一個更高的法源基礎會變成我們每一次遇到這些狀況的時候都會有點捉襟見肘就是我們要一直來看說那到底是哪一個法源適合使用那這個一定也會造成國人的疑慮所以我們是希望說就是剛剛講的這個對未來的一個研判然後以及我覺得可能是陸委會對於以後我們針對這樣事情的反制措施的會不會有一個新的法源能夠建議我們這邊立法者來進行也希望可能會有看\n482739\t491880\t法治相關的可能有相關的一些演習然後我們可以來討論這件事情那因為時間到了就先講到這邊謝謝好謝謝委員好非常謝謝沈伯洋委員的質詢謝謝謝謝次長先生\n","txt":"好,謝謝主席,謝謝次長。那這個,一樣非本委我們只有8分鐘,所以我想說也是快速帶過。那,我們非本委8分鐘。所以這個,就是因為剛好就在前幾天這邊也有提到這個中國的灰色地帶作戰。\n灰色地帶作戰在前面我們提到是比較偏軍事的層面那軍事的層面有某種程度還是要我們怎麼預判要怎麼做透明化但現在我們面臨的今天的比較不是偏軍事的狀況但我認為還是有很多地方是可以適用那在這邊呢我們先來看一下就是說因為畢竟中國的這個灰色地帶作戰在對各個國家那現在對台灣是最多的\n通常來講他們的作戰分成四個不同的層面有軍事的有我比較擅長的資訊類的然後有經濟的然後還有地緣政治的那我們現在面臨的當然比較多是經濟相關那經濟相關其實以往我們遇到的比較多可能是農產品\n在這些他們的手段當中我發現在我們的應對當然這邊我們今天經濟部並不在場但是我們很多時候都是比較被動的回應\n例如說他今天弄的是鳳梨那我們解決的就是鳳梨那想辦法透過外銷的方式讓他可以銷到日本等等之類的那今天我們遇到的狀況呢又再更往前進一步因為他已經不只指示經濟的利益那我相信在前面很多的委員也都有提到業者的損失等等之類的但這次還有牽涉到就是國人必須他旅遊嘛\n所以旅遊簡單來講它本來就有到哪裡的自由那我們當然在對於比較危險的地方我們會有不同的顏色請國人不要前往但是現在我們所做的手段變得比較不一樣是因為中國先限制了團客那我們現在用的方式是依據這個對等原則\n然後說那既然你是限制團客那我們也用團客相關的限制所以第一個我想問一下就是在我們做這個協調機制的過程當中這個所謂的對等原則有必要是一定都是要跟他相同的手段嗎?譬如說他今天用的是旅遊我們就一定要用旅遊反制還是說我們可以用其他的手段這個有沒有在當時的評估狀況?\n報告委員其實您提的很重要政府在處理事情不會只用一個單一手段會綜合各方的訊息跟資訊所以即使大陸禁止其實它不只禁止團客它連自由行動都沒有開放\n那對我們來講我們是沒有禁止自由行到大陸所以這個部分我們比他開放很多我們也希望他們對等開放自由行也盡量開放那團課的部分因為涉及到不特定人士赴陌生地方的旅遊所以基本上會有旅行社業者來帶團那這個在帶團的過程中間相對來講是比自由行\n所以您提的沒有錯這些議題都是不同的訊息\n那包含今年初的這個外交事件M503事件導致政府綜合考慮要做這樣的決定那所以是不是可以這樣理解就是在於說我們在應對的時候其實不僅僅是中國團客這一件事情而已是在整個政治的研判當中包含這個M503甚至包含他們外交其他的施壓所以我們採取這個手段\n再來我想問的就是因為第一個我們剛剛其實有業者的利益的問題所以當然我們會有這個就是前面應該也有不少人提到就是有沒有給業者足夠的反應時間以及業者對於自己做這個中國這個團課他相關的這一個風險在哪裡像以往就會有民間團體建議說那是不是他們應該要有某種程度的保險這個保險是不是政府有可能來擬定跟規劃\n因為畢竟跟中國做生意跟中國有任何的經濟上的往來它是有風險的事情我知道陸委會一直以來也都會警告國人這是一個風險但是風險有了之後有些人他願意take這個風險那有了風險之後我們常常會想到補償\n觀光署來跟您報告報告委員\n那如果旅行社在組團的話他就可以這個保那個旅行社責任險旅責險那我們的自由行的旅客如果說就是到各地方去旅行的話他當然也可以保這種的這樣的那個旅遊平安險啊或者是業者本身的保險業者自己的保險\n那這樣因為業者目前也有加入這個品保協會那品保協會就是來保障整體的那個消費者參團的消費者的權益那我們今天如果說層次要拉高一點就是對於他們在經營這件事業的風險我指的是這一件事情那我是在想說會不會未來我們有機會來討論這件那因為時間關係我們先再過去那接下來我想要問的就是我們現在要對未來做一些研判\n沈伯洋議員\n我想我們在去年的8月24號的時候就一定要是在要平等的一個對等的一個情況之下來去做一個兩岸觀光的一個交流因為我們現在害怕就是說因為對我們來講這本來應該就是像我們現在在這邊討論它是一個中央主管的事務那他如果把它降成它是一個地方的事務由地方來決定然後決定了以後造成了一個繼承事實\n進行專題報告：沈伯洋\n我們找到這個旅遊觀光條例或者發展觀光條例它本身因為它是有法則的規定它看起來很像是一個法源但它畢竟當時在設計的時候絕對不是直接在針對這個狀況所以如果我們今天不斷的要反制對方不管是軍事還是經濟的壓迫我們今天討論的是經濟我們現在比較欠缺的反而是一個比較概括性的法源\n也就是說我們反制措施如果沒有一個更高的法源基礎會變成我們每一次遇到這些狀況的時候都會有點捉襟見肘就是我們要一直來看說那到底是哪一個法源適合使用那這個一定也會造成國人的疑慮所以我們是希望說就是剛剛講的這個對未來的一個研判然後以及我覺得可能是陸委會對於以後我們針對這樣事情的反制措施的會不會有一個新的法源能夠建議我們這邊立法者來進行也希望可能會有看\n法治相關的可能有相關的一些演習然後我們可以來討論這件事情那因為時間到了就先講到這邊謝謝好謝謝委員好非常謝謝沈伯洋委員的質詢謝謝謝謝次長先生\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.710 --> 00:17.790\n好,謝謝主席,謝謝次長。那這個,一樣非本委我們只有8分鐘,所以我想說也是快速帶過。那,我們非本委8分鐘。所以這個,就是因為剛好就在前幾天這邊也有提到這個中國的灰色地帶作戰。\n\n00:18.931 --> 00:42.552\n灰色地帶作戰在前面我們提到是比較偏軍事的層面那軍事的層面有某種程度還是要我們怎麼預判要怎麼做透明化但現在我們面臨的今天的比較不是偏軍事的狀況但我認為還是有很多地方是可以適用那在這邊呢我們先來看一下就是說因為畢竟中國的這個灰色地帶作戰在對各個國家那現在對台灣是最多的\n\n00:43.392 --> 00:58.732\n通常來講他們的作戰分成四個不同的層面有軍事的有我比較擅長的資訊類的然後有經濟的然後還有地緣政治的那我們現在面臨的當然比較多是經濟相關那經濟相關其實以往我們遇到的比較多可能是農產品\n\n00:59.974 --> 01:02.977\n在這些他們的手段當中我發現在我們的應對當然這邊我們今天經濟部並不在場但是我們很多時候都是比較被動的回應\n\n01:24.657 --> 01:47.411\n例如說他今天弄的是鳳梨那我們解決的就是鳳梨那想辦法透過外銷的方式讓他可以銷到日本等等之類的那今天我們遇到的狀況呢又再更往前進一步因為他已經不只指示經濟的利益那我相信在前面很多的委員也都有提到業者的損失等等之類的但這次還有牽涉到就是國人必須他旅遊嘛\n\n01:47.811 --> 02:03.966\n所以旅遊簡單來講它本來就有到哪裡的自由那我們當然在對於比較危險的地方我們會有不同的顏色請國人不要前往但是現在我們所做的手段變得比較不一樣是因為中國先限制了團客那我們現在用的方式是依據這個對等原則\n\n02:05.447 --> 02:26.807\n然後說那既然你是限制團客那我們也用團客相關的限制所以第一個我想問一下就是在我們做這個協調機制的過程當中這個所謂的對等原則有必要是一定都是要跟他相同的手段嗎?譬如說他今天用的是旅遊我們就一定要用旅遊反制還是說我們可以用其他的手段這個有沒有在當時的評估狀況?\n\n02:29.211 --> 02:45.004\n報告委員其實您提的很重要政府在處理事情不會只用一個單一手段會綜合各方的訊息跟資訊所以即使大陸禁止其實它不只禁止團客它連自由行動都沒有開放\n\n02:45.965 --> 03:10.523\n那對我們來講我們是沒有禁止自由行到大陸所以這個部分我們比他開放很多我們也希望他們對等開放自由行也盡量開放那團課的部分因為涉及到不特定人士赴陌生地方的旅遊所以基本上會有旅行社業者來帶團那這個在帶團的過程中間相對來講是比自由行\n\n03:11.804 --> 03:13.524\n所以您提的沒有錯這些議題都是不同的訊息\n\n03:40.310 --> 04:00.090\n那包含今年初的這個外交事件M503事件導致政府綜合考慮要做這樣的決定那所以是不是可以這樣理解就是在於說我們在應對的時候其實不僅僅是中國團客這一件事情而已是在整個政治的研判當中包含這個M503甚至包含他們外交其他的施壓所以我們採取這個手段\n\n04:03.276 --> 04:27.784\n再來我想問的就是因為第一個我們剛剛其實有業者的利益的問題所以當然我們會有這個就是前面應該也有不少人提到就是有沒有給業者足夠的反應時間以及業者對於自己做這個中國這個團課他相關的這一個風險在哪裡像以往就會有民間團體建議說那是不是他們應該要有某種程度的保險這個保險是不是政府有可能來擬定跟規劃\n\n04:28.704 --> 04:42.119\n因為畢竟跟中國做生意跟中國有任何的經濟上的往來它是有風險的事情我知道陸委會一直以來也都會警告國人這是一個風險但是風險有了之後有些人他願意take這個風險那有了風險之後我們常常會想到補償\n\n04:43.641 --> 04:44.242\n觀光署來跟您報告報告委員\n\n05:06.311 --> 05:28.759\n那如果旅行社在組團的話他就可以這個保那個旅行社責任險旅責險那我們的自由行的旅客如果說就是到各地方去旅行的話他當然也可以保這種的這樣的那個旅遊平安險啊或者是業者本身的保險業者自己的保險\n\n05:31.616 --> 05:57.172\n那這樣因為業者目前也有加入這個品保協會那品保協會就是來保障整體的那個消費者參團的消費者的權益那我們今天如果說層次要拉高一點就是對於他們在經營這件事業的風險我指的是這一件事情那我是在想說會不會未來我們有機會來討論這件那因為時間關係我們先再過去那接下來我想要問的就是我們現在要對未來做一些研判\n\n05:57.452 --> 05:57.712\n沈伯洋議員\n\n06:23.942 --> 06:49.605\n我想我們在去年的8月24號的時候就一定要是在要平等的一個對等的一個情況之下來去做一個兩岸觀光的一個交流因為我們現在害怕就是說因為對我們來講這本來應該就是像我們現在在這邊討論它是一個中央主管的事務那他如果把它降成它是一個地方的事務由地方來決定然後決定了以後造成了一個繼承事實\n\n06:50.225 --> 06:50.465\n進行專題報告：沈伯洋\n\n07:10.820 --> 07:32.626\n我們找到這個旅遊觀光條例或者發展觀光條例它本身因為它是有法則的規定它看起來很像是一個法源但它畢竟當時在設計的時候絕對不是直接在針對這個狀況所以如果我們今天不斷的要反制對方不管是軍事還是經濟的壓迫我們今天討論的是經濟我們現在比較欠缺的反而是一個比較概括性的法源\n\n07:33.266 --> 08:02.279\n也就是說我們反制措施如果沒有一個更高的法源基礎會變成我們每一次遇到這些狀況的時候都會有點捉襟見肘就是我們要一直來看說那到底是哪一個法源適合使用那這個一定也會造成國人的疑慮所以我們是希望說就是剛剛講的這個對未來的一個研判然後以及我覺得可能是陸委會對於以後我們針對這樣事情的反制措施的會不會有一個新的法源能夠建議我們這邊立法者來進行也希望可能會有看\n\n08:02.739 --> 08:11.880\n法治相關的可能有相關的一些演習然後我們可以來討論這件事情那因為時間到了就先講到這邊謝謝好謝謝委員好非常謝謝沈伯洋委員的質詢謝謝謝謝次長先生\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.71,"end":17.79,"text":"好,謝謝主席,謝謝次長。那這個,一樣非本委我們只有8分鐘,所以我想說也是快速帶過。那,我們非本委8分鐘。所以這個,就是因為剛好就在前幾天這邊也有提到這個中國的灰色地帶作戰。"},{"start":18.931,"end":42.552,"text":"灰色地帶作戰在前面我們提到是比較偏軍事的層面那軍事的層面有某種程度還是要我們怎麼預判要怎麼做透明化但現在我們面臨的今天的比較不是偏軍事的狀況但我認為還是有很多地方是可以適用那在這邊呢我們先來看一下就是說因為畢竟中國的這個灰色地帶作戰在對各個國家那現在對台灣是最多的"},{"start":43.392,"end":58.732,"text":"通常來講他們的作戰分成四個不同的層面有軍事的有我比較擅長的資訊類的然後有經濟的然後還有地緣政治的那我們現在面臨的當然比較多是經濟相關那經濟相關其實以往我們遇到的比較多可能是農產品"},{"start":59.974,"end":62.977,"text":"在這些他們的手段當中我發現在我們的應對當然這邊我們今天經濟部並不在場但是我們很多時候都是比較被動的回應"},{"start":84.657,"end":107.411,"text":"例如說他今天弄的是鳳梨那我們解決的就是鳳梨那想辦法透過外銷的方式讓他可以銷到日本等等之類的那今天我們遇到的狀況呢又再更往前進一步因為他已經不只指示經濟的利益那我相信在前面很多的委員也都有提到業者的損失等等之類的但這次還有牽涉到就是國人必須他旅遊嘛"},{"start":107.811,"end":123.966,"text":"所以旅遊簡單來講它本來就有到哪裡的自由那我們當然在對於比較危險的地方我們會有不同的顏色請國人不要前往但是現在我們所做的手段變得比較不一樣是因為中國先限制了團客那我們現在用的方式是依據這個對等原則"},{"start":125.447,"end":146.807,"text":"然後說那既然你是限制團客那我們也用團客相關的限制所以第一個我想問一下就是在我們做這個協調機制的過程當中這個所謂的對等原則有必要是一定都是要跟他相同的手段嗎?譬如說他今天用的是旅遊我們就一定要用旅遊反制還是說我們可以用其他的手段這個有沒有在當時的評估狀況?"},{"start":149.211,"end":165.004,"text":"報告委員其實您提的很重要政府在處理事情不會只用一個單一手段會綜合各方的訊息跟資訊所以即使大陸禁止其實它不只禁止團客它連自由行動都沒有開放"},{"start":165.965,"end":190.523,"text":"那對我們來講我們是沒有禁止自由行到大陸所以這個部分我們比他開放很多我們也希望他們對等開放自由行也盡量開放那團課的部分因為涉及到不特定人士赴陌生地方的旅遊所以基本上會有旅行社業者來帶團那這個在帶團的過程中間相對來講是比自由行"},{"start":191.804,"end":193.524,"text":"所以您提的沒有錯這些議題都是不同的訊息"},{"start":220.31,"end":240.09,"text":"那包含今年初的這個外交事件M503事件導致政府綜合考慮要做這樣的決定那所以是不是可以這樣理解就是在於說我們在應對的時候其實不僅僅是中國團客這一件事情而已是在整個政治的研判當中包含這個M503甚至包含他們外交其他的施壓所以我們採取這個手段"},{"start":243.276,"end":267.784,"text":"再來我想問的就是因為第一個我們剛剛其實有業者的利益的問題所以當然我們會有這個就是前面應該也有不少人提到就是有沒有給業者足夠的反應時間以及業者對於自己做這個中國這個團課他相關的這一個風險在哪裡像以往就會有民間團體建議說那是不是他們應該要有某種程度的保險這個保險是不是政府有可能來擬定跟規劃"},{"start":268.704,"end":282.119,"text":"因為畢竟跟中國做生意跟中國有任何的經濟上的往來它是有風險的事情我知道陸委會一直以來也都會警告國人這是一個風險但是風險有了之後有些人他願意take這個風險那有了風險之後我們常常會想到補償"},{"start":283.641,"end":284.242,"text":"觀光署來跟您報告報告委員"},{"start":306.311,"end":328.759,"text":"那如果旅行社在組團的話他就可以這個保那個旅行社責任險旅責險那我們的自由行的旅客如果說就是到各地方去旅行的話他當然也可以保這種的這樣的那個旅遊平安險啊或者是業者本身的保險業者自己的保險"},{"start":331.616,"end":357.172,"text":"那這樣因為業者目前也有加入這個品保協會那品保協會就是來保障整體的那個消費者參團的消費者的權益那我們今天如果說層次要拉高一點就是對於他們在經營這件事業的風險我指的是這一件事情那我是在想說會不會未來我們有機會來討論這件那因為時間關係我們先再過去那接下來我想要問的就是我們現在要對未來做一些研判"},{"start":357.452,"end":357.712,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":383.942,"end":409.605,"text":"我想我們在去年的8月24號的時候就一定要是在要平等的一個對等的一個情況之下來去做一個兩岸觀光的一個交流因為我們現在害怕就是說因為對我們來講這本來應該就是像我們現在在這邊討論它是一個中央主管的事務那他如果把它降成它是一個地方的事務由地方來決定然後決定了以後造成了一個繼承事實"},{"start":410.225,"end":410.465,"text":"進行專題報告：沈伯洋"},{"start":430.82,"end":452.626,"text":"我們找到這個旅遊觀光條例或者發展觀光條例它本身因為它是有法則的規定它看起來很像是一個法源但它畢竟當時在設計的時候絕對不是直接在針對這個狀況所以如果我們今天不斷的要反制對方不管是軍事還是經濟的壓迫我們今天討論的是經濟我們現在比較欠缺的反而是一個比較概括性的法源"},{"start":453.266,"end":482.279,"text":"也就是說我們反制措施如果沒有一個更高的法源基礎會變成我們每一次遇到這些狀況的時候都會有點捉襟見肘就是我們要一直來看說那到底是哪一個法源適合使用那這個一定也會造成國人的疑慮所以我們是希望說就是剛剛講的這個對未來的一個研判然後以及我覺得可能是陸委會對於以後我們針對這樣事情的反制措施的會不會有一個新的法源能夠建議我們這邊立法者來進行也希望可能會有看"},{"start":482.739,"end":491.88,"text":"法治相關的可能有相關的一些演習然後我們可以來討論這件事情那因為時間到了就先講到這邊謝謝好謝謝委員好非常謝謝沈伯洋委員的質詢謝謝謝謝次長先生"}]}}}}