{"id":149431,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149431","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172ff36a7888d0b6ab8b1e2be856f0c9cef9f8ba9b0039caa7a664316327c03bac955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"13:21:03 - 13:31:51","影片長度":"00:10:48","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-3"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":648,"end_time":"2024-03-06T13:31:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T13:21:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1671,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（13時21分）謝謝主席，我們請發展署蔡署長。"],["主席：好，請蔡署長。"],["蔡署長孟良：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：署長好。今天就引進印度籍勞工衍生出來的外籍勞工管理的問題，我繼續請教。首先就是10萬名數量的問題，當媒體報導要引進印度籍勞工的時候，第一時間就提到10萬名這個數字，我一開始也沒有看到你們有任何駁斥，所以這件事情才會一直發酵起來。事實上，本席觀察到新聞回應，算了一下，是隔了4天之後，你們才確認即將引進印度籍勞工，而且上面根本就沒有10萬名這個數字，也不是一次就引進10萬名，而是逐步引進，也因此造成很多民眾的討論跟關注。","我們來看一下這個簡報，民國100年1月外籍勞工的人數就有三十八萬多，最多的是印尼籍的勞工，有將近16萬，到了今年1月，外籍勞工的人數已經高達七十五萬多人，而且人數超過10萬人的有菲律賓、越南、印尼，所以新聞說印度籍勞工會引進10萬名，10萬名這個數字到底是怎麼來的？是你們自己發布的嗎？如果不是的話，你搖頭，不是，那是怎麼來的？我很好奇啊！大家都很好奇。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，我們跟印度在洽商，MOU只是一個框架，裡面其實完全沒有提到未來要引進多少，甚至MOU有一條就是說未來要引進的人數完全是由我們決定，去年底我們看到這樣的訊息，發現有這樣的情形，可能是一些新媒體上面有這種錯誤的傳播……"],["陳委員瑩：是錯誤的傳播，還是你們裡面有人自己看到新開發了新的國家的移工，然後就好大喜功趕快公布了這樣的訊息，你要不要去查一下？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，絕對沒有，因為事實上當初在討論的過程中，我們一開始也是非常慎重，完全也沒有對外發布任何相關資訊。"],["陳委員瑩：我今天提出這個問題也是讓你再一次說明，也希望你們未來反應要快一點，像這種簡單就可以說明的問題，你還拖了4天。引以為戒一下，好不好？"],["蔡署長孟良：好，這個以後我們會來改。"],["陳委員瑩：好。再來就是第二個問題，就是逃逸移工快速增加，牽扯出印度籍勞工不當的刻板印象，問題的本質其實還是回到2022年單一年度逃逸外籍勞工大幅增加，我們看一下簡報的數字，2022年1月還在五萬多，到了12月的時候就突破了8萬人，我們再看一下簡報，本席長期都在衛環委員會，我知道過去逃逸移工人數大概都維持在五萬多，但是到今年已經高達86,000人了，在過去累積到五萬多人的時候，平均一年大概維持逃逸兩萬五千多人，查獲也是兩萬五千多人，我還記得那個時候的移民署署長，也就是前臺北市警局的邱豐光署長，他那時候績效比現在好很多，因此實際逃逸人數絕對不是我們現在看到的這個數字，我們應該要把每年逃逸的人數累積起來，不管後來有沒有被查獲，這才是我們應該重視的數據。假設10年前每年逃逸兩萬五千多人，你算一下，10年下來就是二十五萬多人，統計數據都不是這樣子算給我們看，但是我們應該要這樣算。那我就問你，最近5年每年逃逸的人次是怎麼樣？署長，你能不能說明？5年來實際累計逃逸的外籍勞工人數到底有多少？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，本來在疫情前每年的逃逸人數，誠如委員剛剛提到的，其實都非常穩定，在一個管控的範圍內，發生人數跟現況比較偏高，主要是疫情期間，尤其是在111年，那一年整個人數特別飆高，這個當然是受到整個供需市場的影響。"],["陳委員瑩：所以是因為疫情讓人數飆高？"],["蔡署長孟良：是發生疫情……"],["陳委員瑩：還是因為疫情，我們為了要控制疫情，有一些宣導，有一些誘因，請大家出來自首？"],["蔡署長孟良：就是在疫情期間失聯的人數偏高。剛剛委員提到最近5年，平均一年大概兩萬多，所以最近這5年大概是13萬人，我們透過移民署的協助，也查獲了十萬七千多人……"],["陳委員瑩：好，你很誠實地累計，講到13萬，這個數據跟我統計的也是差不多，所以我是給你肯定一下，你有誠實，其實13萬到15萬都有可能。","最近我也有注意到幾則新聞，這些新聞跟外籍勞工逃逸的原因有關，有提到經濟因素、勞動條件、雇主不當對待及疫情的邊境管制，都有相關，但是你有沒有想過它是一個系統性的問題，而且每一個單一的原因對其他的原因，整個加起來，連貫起來，都有加乘的效果？所以我個人看到，回顧當年我們審查就服法第五十二條取消三年出國一次的條文，當時你們勞動部信誓旦旦地保證逃逸外籍勞工人數將會減少，結果事實恰恰相反，那這件事情到底誰要負責？難道是我們緬懷的當時的部長郭芳煜嗎？他可以為這件事負責嗎？我只知道說，如果我出國打拼，本來每三年可以回家團聚一次，雇主提供假期跟機票給我，對於安定我的工作、我的內心，給我鼓勵，其實就是一個很重要的支持，但是現在如果移工三年後回去母國休假，之後違約不回來，不回來，也不會留在臺灣，那也不會產生更多之後的社會問題，那我們臺灣政府也不用再花更多的人力和經費去處理我們國內外籍勞工逃逸的問題。所以這就是修法前、修法後的一個很大的差異，提供給你參考。"],["蔡署長孟良：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：最後我要提的是安置的問題，就服法的地方主管機關明明就是地方政府，我們的兒童、婦女如果受到家暴，也都是透過地方政府的社政單位來安置，那為什麼我們的外籍勞工的安置，不能補助地方政府來辦理？地方政府如果接到通報，他們不就可以及時來安置嗎？而且他們也可以同時進行必要的處理，他們也沒有動機或誘因來多收安置費，而鼓勵勞資雙方來對立，更加不會有異地安置增加管理成本的問題，安置上也會比較平均，也不會說就專門集中在某一個縣市，這是一個很奇怪的現象。所以未來發展署是不是支持由地方政府機關來負責安置的工作？我請你好好考慮。"],["蔡署長孟良：謝謝委員，這一點我們非常認同，因為地方政府安置會比較方便，就是就地安置，儘量避免因為沒有安置地點而造成跨縣市的移動，這個我們會來努力。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我對你有很深的期待，看你來怎麼樣改變這個很畸形的現象，所以我今天的質詢主要就是針對印度外籍勞工引進後將來可能發生的問題先做一個提醒，也期許勞動部未來對於新聞的回應可以快速掌握核心的問題，同時可以加強逃逸移工的控管，還有剛剛很重要的提醒，就是改進安置衍生的問題。謝謝。"],["蔡署長孟良：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員的質詢。","接下來我們請何欣純、何欣純、何欣純委員不在。","王鴻薇、王鴻薇、王鴻薇委員不在。","鄭天財Sra Kacaw、鄭天財Sra Kacaw、鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員不在。","陳冠廷、陳冠廷、陳冠廷委員不在。","王美惠、王美惠、王美惠委員不在。","徐巧芯、徐巧芯、徐巧芯委員不在。","鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","林楚茵、林楚茵、林楚茵委員不在。","本日會議詢答全部結束。","委員王鴻薇所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員王鴻薇書面質詢：","勞動部針對外國人從事家庭幫傭工作之我國雇主資格，依現行法規規定，僅由家戶成員符合「有3名以上之年齡6歲以下子女。」或「有4名以上之年齡12歲以下子女，且其中2名為年齡6歲以下。」條件之一，且累計點數滿十六點者，始得申請招募或承接外國人。","然現行國內家庭多為小家庭或少子女之狀況，上述規定並不符合現今國情，且目前多為雙薪家庭狀況，需在工作與照養子女上兼顧，增加不少生育家庭壓力。勞動部是否放寬審查標準，修正相關規定至「家有一名六歲以下輕度或中度罕病兒、累計點數十六點下修及家中有兩名四歲以下幼兒」，以減緩家庭負擔？"],["委員陳冠廷書面質詢：","一、印度移工的外交風波","（勞動部）部長，我們都是身為人，才會作為台灣人、印度人。我很遺憾您的發言有失精準釀成外交風波，無論在印度主流媒體（WION、NEWS18），或是在台印度人社群、學者（胡莎娜博士）都有報導、討論此次事件。","我們現在也看到部長致歉，但部長，衍生的外交風波對我們這次的台印勞務合作備忘錄會不會有影響？勞動部有沒有預擬相關的應處措施？","本席強調，印度因為長期以來跟台灣的連結不深，造成國人對印度恐有刻板印象尚待交流後，進一步認識與了解。而政務官代表政府甚至國家形象，更需要謹言慎行。","本席了解台灣缺工的現象是個複雜的議題，牽扯到也不只是經濟面，這跟外交、國安都有關係。請問部長，是不是有相關的計畫，增加台灣對印度的認識，共同來促成雙邊在移工計畫的落實？","二、外交部書面報告與台印後續關係","（外交部）部長，這次移工問題爭議本席肯定外交部也已經發出聲明，歡迎符合申請資格、不分族裔背景的印籍移工來台。但外交部送來的書面報告就只有簡單一頁，請問雙邊關係影響，外交部有沒有評估？這些我希望在書面報告的內容，完全都沒有。","本席提醒，印度近年來跟台灣的關係越來越緊密，我們田中光次長更在印度有長達7年擔任大使的經驗，但民間的交流與理解仍有不足，外交部有沒有計畫或方案，深化台印關係？","另外，我們在孟買設處的規劃目前進行的如何？有預計什麼時候開館？邀請出席的嘉賓層級可以到多高？"],["主席：剛剛有一個臨時提案，是本席提出來的，已作文字修正，送交議事人員，那就按修正文字通過。本席也已經有連署，這是第3案，第3案通過。","現在作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢。委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復；委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","本次會議到此結束，現在散會。我們謝謝各部會首長，大家趕快用餐，謝謝議事人員，謝謝，也謝謝媒體朋友，謝謝。","散會（13時33分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-3","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王正旭","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","盧縣一","楊曜","劉建國","林淑芬","謝衣鳯","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","吳思瑤","洪申翰","游顥","洪孟楷","蔡易餘","羅智強","陳瑩","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":125,"meetingDate":["2024-03-06"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度\n移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"149431","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149431","tool":"pyannote","id":"149431-pyannote"},"job_id":"ZaWw31VYIZiNmzNJ","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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\"詢\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,234 --> 00:00:29,248\n謝謝主席我們請那個發展署蔡署長好來蔡署長委員好署長好我們今天就這個引進印度籍勞工衍生出來的這個外籍勞工管理的問題我想就在我們再繼續請教那首先呢就是這個10萬名的這個數量的問題\n\n2\n00:00:33,391 --> 00:00:48,544\n當這個媒體報導要引進印度籍的勞工的時候呢第一時間就有提到10萬名這個數字那一開始也沒有看到你們有任何的駁斥那所以這件事情才會一直發酵起來嗎\n\n3\n00:00:50,612 --> 00:01:11,859\n那事實上本期觀察到的這個新聞回應其實我算了一下它是隔了4天之後你們才確認即將引進這個印度籍勞工而且上面根本就沒有10萬名的這個數字那也不是說一次就10萬名而是說逐步引進嘛\n\n4\n00:01:13,199 --> 00:01:38,650\n那也因此這樣造成我們很多許多這個民眾的這個討論跟關注啦那我們來看一下這個簡報民國100年1月外籍勞工的人數就有38萬多了那最多的是那個印尼籍的勞工有將近16萬那到了今年的這個1月外籍勞工的人數已經高達75萬多人而且超過10萬人\n\n5\n00:01:41,211 --> 00:02:08,505\n10萬人數是有的超過10萬人的大概有菲律賓、越南還有這個印尼所以有關印尼籍的這個印度籍的勞工的新聞為什麼說到這個10萬名10萬名這個數字到底是怎麼來的是你們自己發布的嗎那如果不是的話你搖頭嗎不是啊是怎麼來的我很好奇啊大家都很好奇\n\n6\n00:02:10,211 --> 00:02:37,018\n跟委員報告因為其實我們跟印度在洽商因為MOU它只是一個框架裡面其實完全沒有提到未來要引進多少甚至它MOU其實有一條就是未來要引進的人數其實完全是由我們在決定那在當初去年底其實我們也有一點有一點大概對這樣的訊息發生有這樣的一個情形大概發現可能是有一些是不是有一些在新媒體上面有一些這種錯誤的一個傳播\n\n7\n00:02:38,658 --> 00:02:55,606\n這最初的傳播還是你們裡面有人耗大喜功就自己看到然後覺得說新開發了這個新的國家然後就耗大喜功趕快公布了這樣的一個訊息你要不要去查一下\n\n8\n00:02:56,646 --> 00:03:16,662\n絕對沒有因為事實上這個當初在討論過程其實我們一開始也是非常慎重完全也沒有對外做任何的一些相關的一些事情我想今天提出這個問題也是讓你再次的說明啦所以也希望你們未來反應要快一點像這種簡單就可以說明的問題你還拖了四天啊\n\n9\n00:03:20,525 --> 00:03:38,358\n來再來就是第二個問題就是這個逃逸的這個快速增加牽扯出這個印度籍勞工不當的這個刻板印象那問題的這個本質其實還是回到這個2022年單一年度逃逸外籍勞工的這個大幅增加我們看一下這個簡報的數字\n\n10\n00:03:42,302 --> 00:03:48,992\n2022年的1月還在5萬多到了12月的時候就突破了8萬人那我們再看一下這個簡報\n\n11\n00:03:52,048 --> 00:04:15,993\n因為本期長期都在未還委員會那過去我們這個逃逸的人數大概都維持在5萬多那但是到今年其實已經高達了這個8萬6千人了那其實在過去累積到這個5萬多人的這個年代的時候呢我們大概平均一年大概維持逃逸2萬5千多人\n\n12\n00:04:16,973 --> 00:04:17,213\n查獲25,000多人．\n\n13\n00:04:39,649 --> 00:05:05,763\n我們應該要把每年逃逸的人數把它累積起來那不管後來有沒有被查獲才是我們應該重視的數據那假設我們10年前每年逃逸25000人你算一下10年下來就是25萬人我們都不是這樣這個統計數據都不是這樣子算給我們看但是我們應該要這樣算那另外\n\n14\n00:05:07,113 --> 00:05:21,687\n我們在那我就問你啦好最近5年我們每年逃逸的人次是怎麼樣署長你能不能說明那5年來實際累計逃逸了到底又有多少的這個\n\n15\n00:05:24,309 --> 00:05:48,779\n跟委員報告其實我們每一年這個逃逸本來在疫情前就正如委員剛剛講其實都非常穩定就是在一個我們在一個管控的範圍內那主要是發生會來人數會跟現況會比較會偏高是疫情期間尤其在111年他那一年是特別飆高整個人數啊這個當然跟整個供需市場的影響\n\n16\n00:05:48,919 --> 00:06:02,713\n所以因為疫情讓人數飆高還是因為疫情我們為了要這個控制疫情我們有一些有一些宣導有一些誘因請大家出來自首\n\n17\n00:06:04,548 --> 00:06:25,481\n就是在疫情期間就是發生失聯的人數比較偏高就發生偏高那剛剛大概委員提到那個最近5年大概平均大概一年大概2萬多所以5年下來大概最近這5年大概是3萬是3萬的那查緝其實我們透過移民署的協助也查獲了10萬7千多人\n\n18\n00:06:26,381 --> 00:06:39,065\n你很誠實的累計講到13萬這個數據跟我統計的也是差不多所以我是給你肯定一下你有誠實其實13萬到15萬都有可能那因為最近我有注意到這個幾則新聞因為跟這個\n\n19\n00:06:42,606 --> 00:07:11,149\n外籍勞工的逃逸的原因有關就是有提到這個經濟因素勞動條件那還有雇主不當的對待以及這個疫情的邊境的管制都有相關但是你有沒有想過它一整個它是一個系統性的問題而且它每一個單一的這個原因那對其他的原因它整個加起來連貫起來它都有一個加成的加成的這個效果\n\n20\n00:07:12,636 --> 00:07:22,484\n所以我是看到說每年在回顧當年我們在審查救福法52條取消3年出國儀式的條文\n\n21\n00:07:31,155 --> 00:07:52,149\n當時你們勞動部信誓旦旦的保證說這個逃逸的這個外籍勞工的人數將會減少結果事實恰恰相反那這件事情到底誰要負責難道是當時的我們緬懷的這個郭芳玉部長嗎他可以為這件事負責嗎\n\n22\n00:07:55,267 --> 00:08:21,157\n阿如果就是說我只知道說好如果本來我出國打拼那每三年可以回家團聚一次顧主提供假期跟這個機票給我那對於安定我的這個工作我的這個內心跟這個鼓勵其實就是一個很重要的一個支持嘛那但是就是說現在說就算\n\n23\n00:08:23,237 --> 00:08:29,039\n他們三年好回去母國休假之後呢他違約不回來了\n\n24\n00:08:54,953 --> 00:09:18,793\n最後我要提的是安置的問題救福法的地方主管機關明明就是地方政府我們的兒童、婦女一般如果受到家暴的時候也都是透過地方政府的設政單位來安置為什麼我們的外籍勞工的安置不能補助地方政府來辦理\n\n25\n00:09:20,074 --> 00:09:41,367\n然後我想就是說這個地方政府如果接到通報那他們不就可以及時來安置了嗎那而且他們也可以同時進行必要的這個處理而且也沒有說沒有這個動機或者誘因為了說是不是怎麼樣然後來多收這個安置費而鼓勵勞資雙方來對立\n\n26\n00:09:44,409 --> 00:09:47,390\n發展署是否支持由地方政府機關來負責安置工作?\n\n27\n00:10:03,295 --> 00:10:28,255\n這一點我們非常認同因為地方政府其實安置會比較方便就是就地安置盡量避免發生因為沒有安置地點而造成跨縣市這樣的移動那我想我對你有很深的期待看你來怎麼樣改變這個很畸形的現象那所以今天的質詢我們主要就是說這個針對印度外籍勞工引進將來可能會發生的問題先做一個提醒\n\n28\n00:10:29,056 --> 00:10:29,136\n陳瑩委員的質詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8234\t29248\t謝謝主席我們請那個發展署蔡署長好來蔡署長委員好署長好我們今天就這個引進印度籍勞工衍生出來的這個外籍勞工管理的問題我想就在我們再繼續請教那首先呢就是這個10萬名的這個數量的問題\n33391\t48544\t當這個媒體報導要引進印度籍的勞工的時候呢第一時間就有提到10萬名這個數字那一開始也沒有看到你們有任何的駁斥那所以這件事情才會一直發酵起來嗎\n50612\t71859\t那事實上本期觀察到的這個新聞回應其實我算了一下它是隔了4天之後你們才確認即將引進這個印度籍勞工而且上面根本就沒有10萬名的這個數字那也不是說一次就10萬名而是說逐步引進嘛\n73199\t98650\t那也因此這樣造成我們很多許多這個民眾的這個討論跟關注啦那我們來看一下這個簡報民國100年1月外籍勞工的人數就有38萬多了那最多的是那個印尼籍的勞工有將近16萬那到了今年的這個1月外籍勞工的人數已經高達75萬多人而且超過10萬人\n101211\t128505\t10萬人數是有的超過10萬人的大概有菲律賓、越南還有這個印尼所以有關印尼籍的這個印度籍的勞工的新聞為什麼說到這個10萬名10萬名這個數字到底是怎麼來的是你們自己發布的嗎那如果不是的話你搖頭嗎不是啊是怎麼來的我很好奇啊大家都很好奇\n130211\t157018\t跟委員報告因為其實我們跟印度在洽商因為MOU它只是一個框架裡面其實完全沒有提到未來要引進多少甚至它MOU其實有一條就是未來要引進的人數其實完全是由我們在決定那在當初去年底其實我們也有一點有一點大概對這樣的訊息發生有這樣的一個情形大概發現可能是有一些是不是有一些在新媒體上面有一些這種錯誤的一個傳播\n158658\t175606\t這最初的傳播還是你們裡面有人耗大喜功就自己看到然後覺得說新開發了這個新的國家然後就耗大喜功趕快公布了這樣的一個訊息你要不要去查一下\n176646\t196662\t絕對沒有因為事實上這個當初在討論過程其實我們一開始也是非常慎重完全也沒有對外做任何的一些相關的一些事情我想今天提出這個問題也是讓你再次的說明啦所以也希望你們未來反應要快一點像這種簡單就可以說明的問題你還拖了四天啊\n200525\t218358\t來再來就是第二個問題就是這個逃逸的這個快速增加牽扯出這個印度籍勞工不當的這個刻板印象那問題的這個本質其實還是回到這個2022年單一年度逃逸外籍勞工的這個大幅增加我們看一下這個簡報的數字\n222302\t228992\t2022年的1月還在5萬多到了12月的時候就突破了8萬人那我們再看一下這個簡報\n232048\t255993\t因為本期長期都在未還委員會那過去我們這個逃逸的人數大概都維持在5萬多那但是到今年其實已經高達了這個8萬6千人了那其實在過去累積到這個5萬多人的這個年代的時候呢我們大概平均一年大概維持逃逸2萬5千多人\n256973\t257213\t查獲25,000多人．\n279649\t305763\t我們應該要把每年逃逸的人數把它累積起來那不管後來有沒有被查獲才是我們應該重視的數據那假設我們10年前每年逃逸25000人你算一下10年下來就是25萬人我們都不是這樣這個統計數據都不是這樣子算給我們看但是我們應該要這樣算那另外\n307113\t321687\t我們在那我就問你啦好最近5年我們每年逃逸的人次是怎麼樣署長你能不能說明那5年來實際累計逃逸了到底又有多少的這個\n324309\t348779\t跟委員報告 其實我們每一年這個逃逸本來在疫情前就正如委員剛剛講 其實都非常穩定就是在一個我們在一個管控的範圍內那主要是發生會來人數會跟現況會比較會偏高是疫情期間尤其在111年他那一年是特別飆高整個人數啊這個當然跟整個供需市場的影響\n348919\t362713\t所以因為疫情讓人數飆高還是因為疫情我們為了要這個控制疫情我們有一些有一些宣導有一些誘因請大家出來自首\n364548\t385481\t就是在疫情期間就是發生失聯的人數比較偏高就發生偏高那剛剛大概委員提到那個最近5年大概平均大概一年大概2萬多所以5年下來大概最近這5年大概是3萬是3萬的那查緝其實我們透過移民署的協助也查獲了10萬7千多人\n386381\t399065\t你很誠實的累計講到13萬這個數據跟我統計的也是差不多所以我是給你肯定一下你有誠實其實13萬到15萬都有可能那因為最近我有注意到這個幾則新聞因為跟這個\n402606\t431149\t外籍勞工的逃逸的原因有關就是有提到這個經濟因素勞動條件那還有雇主不當的對待以及這個疫情的邊境的管制都有相關但是你有沒有想過它一整個它是一個系統性的問題而且它每一個單一的這個原因那對其他的原因它整個加起來連貫起來它都有一個加成的加成的這個效果\n432636\t442484\t所以我是看到說每年在回顧當年我們在審查救福法52條取消3年出國儀式的條文\n451155\t472149\t當時你們勞動部信誓旦旦的保證說這個逃逸的這個外籍勞工的人數將會減少結果事實恰恰相反那這件事情到底誰要負責難道是當時的我們緬懷的這個郭芳玉部長嗎他可以為這件事負責嗎\n475267\t501157\t阿如果就是說我只知道說好如果本來我出國打拼那每三年可以回家團聚一次顧主提供假期跟這個機票給我那對於安定我的這個工作我的這個內心跟這個鼓勵其實就是一個很重要的一個支持嘛那但是就是說現在說就算\n503237\t509039\t他們三年好回去母國休假之後呢他違約不回來了\n509940\t534753\t謝謝瑩\n534953\t558793\t最後我要提的是安置的問題救福法的地方主管機關明明就是地方政府我們的兒童、婦女一般如果受到家暴的時候也都是透過地方政府的設政單位來安置為什麼我們的外籍勞工的安置不能補助地方政府來辦理\n560074\t581367\t然後我想就是說這個地方政府如果接到通報那他們不就可以及時來安置了嗎那而且他們也可以同時進行必要的這個處理而且也沒有說沒有這個動機或者誘因為了說是不是怎麼樣然後來多收這個安置費而鼓勵勞資雙方來對立\n584409\t587390\t發展署是否支持由地方政府機關來負責安置工作?\n603295\t628255\t這一點我們非常認同因為地方政府其實安置會比較方便就是就地安置盡量避免發生因為沒有安置地點而造成跨縣市這樣的移動那我想我對你有很深的期待看你來怎麼樣改變這個很畸形的現象那所以今天的質詢我們主要就是說這個針對印度外籍勞工引進將來可能會發生的問題先做一個提醒\n629056\t629136\t陳瑩委員的質詢\n","txt":"謝謝主席我們請那個發展署蔡署長好來蔡署長委員好署長好我們今天就這個引進印度籍勞工衍生出來的這個外籍勞工管理的問題我想就在我們再繼續請教那首先呢就是這個10萬名的這個數量的問題\n當這個媒體報導要引進印度籍的勞工的時候呢第一時間就有提到10萬名這個數字那一開始也沒有看到你們有任何的駁斥那所以這件事情才會一直發酵起來嗎\n那事實上本期觀察到的這個新聞回應其實我算了一下它是隔了4天之後你們才確認即將引進這個印度籍勞工而且上面根本就沒有10萬名的這個數字那也不是說一次就10萬名而是說逐步引進嘛\n那也因此這樣造成我們很多許多這個民眾的這個討論跟關注啦那我們來看一下這個簡報民國100年1月外籍勞工的人數就有38萬多了那最多的是那個印尼籍的勞工有將近16萬那到了今年的這個1月外籍勞工的人數已經高達75萬多人而且超過10萬人\n10萬人數是有的超過10萬人的大概有菲律賓、越南還有這個印尼所以有關印尼籍的這個印度籍的勞工的新聞為什麼說到這個10萬名10萬名這個數字到底是怎麼來的是你們自己發布的嗎那如果不是的話你搖頭嗎不是啊是怎麼來的我很好奇啊大家都很好奇\n跟委員報告因為其實我們跟印度在洽商因為MOU它只是一個框架裡面其實完全沒有提到未來要引進多少甚至它MOU其實有一條就是未來要引進的人數其實完全是由我們在決定那在當初去年底其實我們也有一點有一點大概對這樣的訊息發生有這樣的一個情形大概發現可能是有一些是不是有一些在新媒體上面有一些這種錯誤的一個傳播\n這最初的傳播還是你們裡面有人耗大喜功就自己看到然後覺得說新開發了這個新的國家然後就耗大喜功趕快公布了這樣的一個訊息你要不要去查一下\n絕對沒有因為事實上這個當初在討論過程其實我們一開始也是非常慎重完全也沒有對外做任何的一些相關的一些事情我想今天提出這個問題也是讓你再次的說明啦所以也希望你們未來反應要快一點像這種簡單就可以說明的問題你還拖了四天啊\n來再來就是第二個問題就是這個逃逸的這個快速增加牽扯出這個印度籍勞工不當的這個刻板印象那問題的這個本質其實還是回到這個2022年單一年度逃逸外籍勞工的這個大幅增加我們看一下這個簡報的數字\n2022年的1月還在5萬多到了12月的時候就突破了8萬人那我們再看一下這個簡報\n因為本期長期都在未還委員會那過去我們這個逃逸的人數大概都維持在5萬多那但是到今年其實已經高達了這個8萬6千人了那其實在過去累積到這個5萬多人的這個年代的時候呢我們大概平均一年大概維持逃逸2萬5千多人\n查獲25,000多人．\n我們應該要把每年逃逸的人數把它累積起來那不管後來有沒有被查獲才是我們應該重視的數據那假設我們10年前每年逃逸25000人你算一下10年下來就是25萬人我們都不是這樣這個統計數據都不是這樣子算給我們看但是我們應該要這樣算那另外\n我們在那我就問你啦好最近5年我們每年逃逸的人次是怎麼樣署長你能不能說明那5年來實際累計逃逸了到底又有多少的這個\n跟委員報告 其實我們每一年這個逃逸本來在疫情前就正如委員剛剛講 其實都非常穩定就是在一個我們在一個管控的範圍內那主要是發生會來人數會跟現況會比較會偏高是疫情期間尤其在111年他那一年是特別飆高整個人數啊這個當然跟整個供需市場的影響\n所以因為疫情讓人數飆高還是因為疫情我們為了要這個控制疫情我們有一些有一些宣導有一些誘因請大家出來自首\n就是在疫情期間就是發生失聯的人數比較偏高就發生偏高那剛剛大概委員提到那個最近5年大概平均大概一年大概2萬多所以5年下來大概最近這5年大概是3萬是3萬的那查緝其實我們透過移民署的協助也查獲了10萬7千多人\n你很誠實的累計講到13萬這個數據跟我統計的也是差不多所以我是給你肯定一下你有誠實其實13萬到15萬都有可能那因為最近我有注意到這個幾則新聞因為跟這個\n外籍勞工的逃逸的原因有關就是有提到這個經濟因素勞動條件那還有雇主不當的對待以及這個疫情的邊境的管制都有相關但是你有沒有想過它一整個它是一個系統性的問題而且它每一個單一的這個原因那對其他的原因它整個加起來連貫起來它都有一個加成的加成的這個效果\n所以我是看到說每年在回顧當年我們在審查救福法52條取消3年出國儀式的條文\n當時你們勞動部信誓旦旦的保證說這個逃逸的這個外籍勞工的人數將會減少結果事實恰恰相反那這件事情到底誰要負責難道是當時的我們緬懷的這個郭芳玉部長嗎他可以為這件事負責嗎\n阿如果就是說我只知道說好如果本來我出國打拼那每三年可以回家團聚一次顧主提供假期跟這個機票給我那對於安定我的這個工作我的這個內心跟這個鼓勵其實就是一個很重要的一個支持嘛那但是就是說現在說就算\n他們三年好回去母國休假之後呢他違約不回來了\n謝謝瑩\n最後我要提的是安置的問題救福法的地方主管機關明明就是地方政府我們的兒童、婦女一般如果受到家暴的時候也都是透過地方政府的設政單位來安置為什麼我們的外籍勞工的安置不能補助地方政府來辦理\n然後我想就是說這個地方政府如果接到通報那他們不就可以及時來安置了嗎那而且他們也可以同時進行必要的這個處理而且也沒有說沒有這個動機或者誘因為了說是不是怎麼樣然後來多收這個安置費而鼓勵勞資雙方來對立\n發展署是否支持由地方政府機關來負責安置工作?\n這一點我們非常認同因為地方政府其實安置會比較方便就是就地安置盡量避免發生因為沒有安置地點而造成跨縣市這樣的移動那我想我對你有很深的期待看你來怎麼樣改變這個很畸形的現象那所以今天的質詢我們主要就是說這個針對印度外籍勞工引進將來可能會發生的問題先做一個提醒\n陳瑩委員的質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.234 --> 00:29.248\n謝謝主席我們請那個發展署蔡署長好來蔡署長委員好署長好我們今天就這個引進印度籍勞工衍生出來的這個外籍勞工管理的問題我想就在我們再繼續請教那首先呢就是這個10萬名的這個數量的問題\n\n00:33.391 --> 00:48.544\n當這個媒體報導要引進印度籍的勞工的時候呢第一時間就有提到10萬名這個數字那一開始也沒有看到你們有任何的駁斥那所以這件事情才會一直發酵起來嗎\n\n00:50.612 --> 01:11.859\n那事實上本期觀察到的這個新聞回應其實我算了一下它是隔了4天之後你們才確認即將引進這個印度籍勞工而且上面根本就沒有10萬名的這個數字那也不是說一次就10萬名而是說逐步引進嘛\n\n01:13.199 --> 01:38.650\n那也因此這樣造成我們很多許多這個民眾的這個討論跟關注啦那我們來看一下這個簡報民國100年1月外籍勞工的人數就有38萬多了那最多的是那個印尼籍的勞工有將近16萬那到了今年的這個1月外籍勞工的人數已經高達75萬多人而且超過10萬人\n\n01:41.211 --> 02:08.505\n10萬人數是有的超過10萬人的大概有菲律賓、越南還有這個印尼所以有關印尼籍的這個印度籍的勞工的新聞為什麼說到這個10萬名10萬名這個數字到底是怎麼來的是你們自己發布的嗎那如果不是的話你搖頭嗎不是啊是怎麼來的我很好奇啊大家都很好奇\n\n02:10.211 --> 02:37.018\n跟委員報告因為其實我們跟印度在洽商因為MOU它只是一個框架裡面其實完全沒有提到未來要引進多少甚至它MOU其實有一條就是未來要引進的人數其實完全是由我們在決定那在當初去年底其實我們也有一點有一點大概對這樣的訊息發生有這樣的一個情形大概發現可能是有一些是不是有一些在新媒體上面有一些這種錯誤的一個傳播\n\n02:38.658 --> 02:55.606\n這最初的傳播還是你們裡面有人耗大喜功就自己看到然後覺得說新開發了這個新的國家然後就耗大喜功趕快公布了這樣的一個訊息你要不要去查一下\n\n02:56.646 --> 03:16.662\n絕對沒有因為事實上這個當初在討論過程其實我們一開始也是非常慎重完全也沒有對外做任何的一些相關的一些事情我想今天提出這個問題也是讓你再次的說明啦所以也希望你們未來反應要快一點像這種簡單就可以說明的問題你還拖了四天啊\n\n03:20.525 --> 03:38.358\n來再來就是第二個問題就是這個逃逸的這個快速增加牽扯出這個印度籍勞工不當的這個刻板印象那問題的這個本質其實還是回到這個2022年單一年度逃逸外籍勞工的這個大幅增加我們看一下這個簡報的數字\n\n03:42.302 --> 03:48.992\n2022年的1月還在5萬多到了12月的時候就突破了8萬人那我們再看一下這個簡報\n\n03:52.048 --> 04:15.993\n因為本期長期都在未還委員會那過去我們這個逃逸的人數大概都維持在5萬多那但是到今年其實已經高達了這個8萬6千人了那其實在過去累積到這個5萬多人的這個年代的時候呢我們大概平均一年大概維持逃逸2萬5千多人\n\n04:16.973 --> 04:17.213\n查獲25,000多人．\n\n04:39.649 --> 05:05.763\n我們應該要把每年逃逸的人數把它累積起來那不管後來有沒有被查獲才是我們應該重視的數據那假設我們10年前每年逃逸25000人你算一下10年下來就是25萬人我們都不是這樣這個統計數據都不是這樣子算給我們看但是我們應該要這樣算那另外\n\n05:07.113 --> 05:21.687\n我們在那我就問你啦好最近5年我們每年逃逸的人次是怎麼樣署長你能不能說明那5年來實際累計逃逸了到底又有多少的這個\n\n05:24.309 --> 05:48.779\n跟委員報告其實我們每一年這個逃逸本來在疫情前就正如委員剛剛講其實都非常穩定就是在一個我們在一個管控的範圍內那主要是發生會來人數會跟現況會比較會偏高是疫情期間尤其在111年他那一年是特別飆高整個人數啊這個當然跟整個供需市場的影響\n\n05:48.919 --> 06:02.713\n所以因為疫情讓人數飆高還是因為疫情我們為了要這個控制疫情我們有一些有一些宣導有一些誘因請大家出來自首\n\n06:04.548 --> 06:25.481\n就是在疫情期間就是發生失聯的人數比較偏高就發生偏高那剛剛大概委員提到那個最近5年大概平均大概一年大概2萬多所以5年下來大概最近這5年大概是3萬是3萬的那查緝其實我們透過移民署的協助也查獲了10萬7千多人\n\n06:26.381 --> 06:39.065\n你很誠實的累計講到13萬這個數據跟我統計的也是差不多所以我是給你肯定一下你有誠實其實13萬到15萬都有可能那因為最近我有注意到這個幾則新聞因為跟這個\n\n06:42.606 --> 07:11.149\n外籍勞工的逃逸的原因有關就是有提到這個經濟因素勞動條件那還有雇主不當的對待以及這個疫情的邊境的管制都有相關但是你有沒有想過它一整個它是一個系統性的問題而且它每一個單一的這個原因那對其他的原因它整個加起來連貫起來它都有一個加成的加成的這個效果\n\n07:12.636 --> 07:22.484\n所以我是看到說每年在回顧當年我們在審查救福法52條取消3年出國儀式的條文\n\n07:31.155 --> 07:52.149\n當時你們勞動部信誓旦旦的保證說這個逃逸的這個外籍勞工的人數將會減少結果事實恰恰相反那這件事情到底誰要負責難道是當時的我們緬懷的這個郭芳玉部長嗎他可以為這件事負責嗎\n\n07:55.267 --> 08:21.157\n阿如果就是說我只知道說好如果本來我出國打拼那每三年可以回家團聚一次顧主提供假期跟這個機票給我那對於安定我的這個工作我的這個內心跟這個鼓勵其實就是一個很重要的一個支持嘛那但是就是說現在說就算\n\n08:23.237 --> 08:29.039\n他們三年好回去母國休假之後呢他違約不回來了\n\n08:54.953 --> 09:18.793\n最後我要提的是安置的問題救福法的地方主管機關明明就是地方政府我們的兒童、婦女一般如果受到家暴的時候也都是透過地方政府的設政單位來安置為什麼我們的外籍勞工的安置不能補助地方政府來辦理\n\n09:20.074 --> 09:41.367\n然後我想就是說這個地方政府如果接到通報那他們不就可以及時來安置了嗎那而且他們也可以同時進行必要的這個處理而且也沒有說沒有這個動機或者誘因為了說是不是怎麼樣然後來多收這個安置費而鼓勵勞資雙方來對立\n\n09:44.409 --> 09:47.390\n發展署是否支持由地方政府機關來負責安置工作?\n\n10:03.295 --> 10:28.255\n這一點我們非常認同因為地方政府其實安置會比較方便就是就地安置盡量避免發生因為沒有安置地點而造成跨縣市這樣的移動那我想我對你有很深的期待看你來怎麼樣改變這個很畸形的現象那所以今天的質詢我們主要就是說這個針對印度外籍勞工引進將來可能會發生的問題先做一個提醒\n\n10:29.056 --> 10:29.136\n陳瑩委員的質詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.234,"end":29.248,"text":"謝謝主席我們請那個發展署蔡署長好來蔡署長委員好署長好我們今天就這個引進印度籍勞工衍生出來的這個外籍勞工管理的問題我想就在我們再繼續請教那首先呢就是這個10萬名的這個數量的問題"},{"start":33.391,"end":48.544,"text":"當這個媒體報導要引進印度籍的勞工的時候呢第一時間就有提到10萬名這個數字那一開始也沒有看到你們有任何的駁斥那所以這件事情才會一直發酵起來嗎"},{"start":50.612,"end":71.859,"text":"那事實上本期觀察到的這個新聞回應其實我算了一下它是隔了4天之後你們才確認即將引進這個印度籍勞工而且上面根本就沒有10萬名的這個數字那也不是說一次就10萬名而是說逐步引進嘛"},{"start":73.199,"end":98.65,"text":"那也因此這樣造成我們很多許多這個民眾的這個討論跟關注啦那我們來看一下這個簡報民國100年1月外籍勞工的人數就有38萬多了那最多的是那個印尼籍的勞工有將近16萬那到了今年的這個1月外籍勞工的人數已經高達75萬多人而且超過10萬人"},{"start":101.211,"end":128.505,"text":"10萬人數是有的超過10萬人的大概有菲律賓、越南還有這個印尼所以有關印尼籍的這個印度籍的勞工的新聞為什麼說到這個10萬名10萬名這個數字到底是怎麼來的是你們自己發布的嗎那如果不是的話你搖頭嗎不是啊是怎麼來的我很好奇啊大家都很好奇"},{"start":130.211,"end":157.018,"text":"跟委員報告因為其實我們跟印度在洽商因為MOU它只是一個框架裡面其實完全沒有提到未來要引進多少甚至它MOU其實有一條就是未來要引進的人數其實完全是由我們在決定那在當初去年底其實我們也有一點有一點大概對這樣的訊息發生有這樣的一個情形大概發現可能是有一些是不是有一些在新媒體上面有一些這種錯誤的一個傳播"},{"start":158.658,"end":175.606,"text":"這最初的傳播還是你們裡面有人耗大喜功就自己看到然後覺得說新開發了這個新的國家然後就耗大喜功趕快公布了這樣的一個訊息你要不要去查一下"},{"start":176.646,"end":196.662,"text":"絕對沒有因為事實上這個當初在討論過程其實我們一開始也是非常慎重完全也沒有對外做任何的一些相關的一些事情我想今天提出這個問題也是讓你再次的說明啦所以也希望你們未來反應要快一點像這種簡單就可以說明的問題你還拖了四天啊"},{"start":200.525,"end":218.358,"text":"來再來就是第二個問題就是這個逃逸的這個快速增加牽扯出這個印度籍勞工不當的這個刻板印象那問題的這個本質其實還是回到這個2022年單一年度逃逸外籍勞工的這個大幅增加我們看一下這個簡報的數字"},{"start":222.302,"end":228.992,"text":"2022年的1月還在5萬多到了12月的時候就突破了8萬人那我們再看一下這個簡報"},{"start":232.048,"end":255.993,"text":"因為本期長期都在未還委員會那過去我們這個逃逸的人數大概都維持在5萬多那但是到今年其實已經高達了這個8萬6千人了那其實在過去累積到這個5萬多人的這個年代的時候呢我們大概平均一年大概維持逃逸2萬5千多人"},{"start":256.973,"end":257.213,"text":"查獲25,000多人．"},{"start":279.649,"end":305.763,"text":"我們應該要把每年逃逸的人數把它累積起來那不管後來有沒有被查獲才是我們應該重視的數據那假設我們10年前每年逃逸25000人你算一下10年下來就是25萬人我們都不是這樣這個統計數據都不是這樣子算給我們看但是我們應該要這樣算那另外"},{"start":307.113,"end":321.687,"text":"我們在那我就問你啦好最近5年我們每年逃逸的人次是怎麼樣署長你能不能說明那5年來實際累計逃逸了到底又有多少的這個"},{"start":324.309,"end":348.779,"text":"跟委員報告 其實我們每一年這個逃逸本來在疫情前就正如委員剛剛講 其實都非常穩定就是在一個我們在一個管控的範圍內那主要是發生會來人數會跟現況會比較會偏高是疫情期間尤其在111年他那一年是特別飆高整個人數啊這個當然跟整個供需市場的影響"},{"start":348.919,"end":362.713,"text":"所以因為疫情讓人數飆高還是因為疫情我們為了要這個控制疫情我們有一些有一些宣導有一些誘因請大家出來自首"},{"start":364.548,"end":385.481,"text":"就是在疫情期間就是發生失聯的人數比較偏高就發生偏高那剛剛大概委員提到那個最近5年大概平均大概一年大概2萬多所以5年下來大概最近這5年大概是3萬是3萬的那查緝其實我們透過移民署的協助也查獲了10萬7千多人"},{"start":386.381,"end":399.065,"text":"你很誠實的累計講到13萬這個數據跟我統計的也是差不多所以我是給你肯定一下你有誠實其實13萬到15萬都有可能那因為最近我有注意到這個幾則新聞因為跟這個"},{"start":402.606,"end":431.149,"text":"外籍勞工的逃逸的原因有關就是有提到這個經濟因素勞動條件那還有雇主不當的對待以及這個疫情的邊境的管制都有相關但是你有沒有想過它一整個它是一個系統性的問題而且它每一個單一的這個原因那對其他的原因它整個加起來連貫起來它都有一個加成的加成的這個效果"},{"start":432.636,"end":442.484,"text":"所以我是看到說每年在回顧當年我們在審查救福法52條取消3年出國儀式的條文"},{"start":451.155,"end":472.149,"text":"當時你們勞動部信誓旦旦的保證說這個逃逸的這個外籍勞工的人數將會減少結果事實恰恰相反那這件事情到底誰要負責難道是當時的我們緬懷的這個郭芳玉部長嗎他可以為這件事負責嗎"},{"start":475.267,"end":501.157,"text":"阿如果就是說我只知道說好如果本來我出國打拼那每三年可以回家團聚一次顧主提供假期跟這個機票給我那對於安定我的這個工作我的這個內心跟這個鼓勵其實就是一個很重要的一個支持嘛那但是就是說現在說就算"},{"start":503.237,"end":509.039,"text":"他們三年好回去母國休假之後呢他違約不回來了"},{"start":509.94,"end":534.753,"text":"謝謝瑩"},{"start":534.953,"end":558.793,"text":"最後我要提的是安置的問題救福法的地方主管機關明明就是地方政府我們的兒童、婦女一般如果受到家暴的時候也都是透過地方政府的設政單位來安置為什麼我們的外籍勞工的安置不能補助地方政府來辦理"},{"start":560.074,"end":581.367,"text":"然後我想就是說這個地方政府如果接到通報那他們不就可以及時來安置了嗎那而且他們也可以同時進行必要的這個處理而且也沒有說沒有這個動機或者誘因為了說是不是怎麼樣然後來多收這個安置費而鼓勵勞資雙方來對立"},{"start":584.409,"end":587.39,"text":"發展署是否支持由地方政府機關來負責安置工作?"},{"start":603.295,"end":628.255,"text":"這一點我們非常認同因為地方政府其實安置會比較方便就是就地安置盡量避免發生因為沒有安置地點而造成跨縣市這樣的移動那我想我對你有很深的期待看你來怎麼樣改變這個很畸形的現象那所以今天的質詢我們主要就是說這個針對印度外籍勞工引進將來可能會發生的問題先做一個提醒"},{"start":629.056,"end":629.136,"text":"陳瑩委員的質詢"}]}}}}