{"id":149449,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149449","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe8523487fc336c696a2c0e3c4ee948455f8ba9b0039caa7a610cd3a5187eac2bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:14:51 - 09:26:53","影片長度":"00:12:02","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":722,"end_time":"2024-03-07T09:26:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T09:14:51+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":28,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時15分）主席，謝謝。麻煩請蕭院長。"],["蕭院長宗煌：洪委員早。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長好。院長，故宮是文化的故宮、全民的故宮，故宮會有雙重標準嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：故宮是文化的故宮、全民的故宮，也希望是全世界的故宮，所以它不會有所謂的雙重標準。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，不會有雙重標準。這兩天有一個我們國民黨籍的委員講一件事情，說故宮現在在南院會有一個展覽，是仿品，是曾侯乙編鐘複製品要來南院2樓大廳展示，有人馬上就會聯想到，2015年影星成龍有捐出12生肖的獸首，當時被外界質疑怎麼會有這樣的仿品來展出，甚至還有講到這是不是統戰的策略。可是，這一批獸首也經過故宮內部的評估，認為是很好的當代工藝，做為公共藝術給民眾欣賞沒有統戰的疑慮。一樣，本席先講，我認為文化可以分當代、近代、遠代，如果有教育意義、文化意義的話，我想大家都可以來推廣，但現在故宮這樣展示曾侯乙編鐘會不會跟過去的立場有所不同？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告一下，有些事情因為時代環境不同、整個客觀條件不同，當然會有差異，這也不能叫做雙重標準。當時收獸首的狀況，因為我不在任內，我不太清楚，但是這邊我要澄清的就是，第一個，曾侯乙編鐘並不是故宮主動要求的，它的情況是傳藝中心1997年買了這套編鐘，原來是要作為展示，因為它是傳統藝術中心，而銅器在古代除了做為祭儀器、禮器、食器之外，還有非常重要的鐘鼎之樂，就是它其實是一個樂器。過去的故宮是缺乏這一塊的，因為因緣際會，這一套樂器巡迴了中山堂、國父紀念館，目前是國立自然科學博物館，之後他們是想找一個地方。因為這個編鐘的編制很完整，需要的空間很大，要表演的時候也需要有一個腹地，所以他們看上了故宮南院，他們來勘察，後來我瞭解的是，之後問了同事，同事說直接找院長。的確我有收到他們的email，所以我就請南院去研處，研處的過程裡面經過……"],["洪委員孟楷：等一下，院長，你剛剛講是歷史博物館，是不是？傳統……"],["蕭院長宗煌：國立傳統藝術中心。"],["洪委員孟楷：傳統藝術中心先去勘察了，然後之後才來找院長問可不可以擺，那他們都已經勘察完畢，之後才來說他們要來做？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告一下，他們去偷偷看過，很滿意那個地方，所以問了同事，同事說……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在是……"],["蕭院長宗煌：最好是直接找院長，所以他們有給我一個email，因為我昨天把這個事情的來龍去脈都查證。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，傳統藝術中心是文化部下的單位，對不對？"],["蕭院長宗煌：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：那文化部跟故宮兩個單位是完全沒有連結，或是完全沒有溝通的管道，還是沒有公文往返？我現在最訝異的是，你剛剛先推說這個是傳統藝術中心來看的，並不是故宮主動邀請，那有沒有這件事情？有嘛！如果5月就要展出，當然地主是故宮，大家一定會認為，無論故宮是主動或是被動，你也是認可這樣的展覽嘛！"],["蕭院長宗煌：基本上來講的話，第一個……"],["洪委員孟楷：現在變成沒有機制，是不是？還是說故宮沒有審查的機制，或是沒有任何考慮的機制、評分的機制？還是每一個人都要找院長？那就看院長的人情跟誰比較大？人脈比較廣？還是以前院長當過文化部的主秘，所以文化部比較好講話？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，不是啦！因為基本上來講的話……"],["洪委員孟楷：您剛剛的答詢……"],["蕭院長宗煌：現在的行政慣例就好像是生了感冒、小病都要去大醫院一樣，就是什麼事情都會推說是上面決定、上面決定……"],["洪委員孟楷：這樣更讓本席感到膽顫心驚喔！南院的展覽沒有一套SOP嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：全部都變成院長拍板定案。"],["蕭院長宗煌：不是，這是一個教育推廣活動。這個事情當然沒有錯，誠如委員講的，它牽涉到文化部的關係，所以比較敏感。如果是同仁自己辦的教育推廣活動，請一個樂團來表演，這些東西南院自己就可以決定了。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以應該會有SOP，今天有什麼樣的展覽、有什麼樣的推廣、有什麼樣的教育、符不符合在南院的場地，因為南院的場地可能沒有場租。來參觀的民眾不管是外國旅客，不管是本國旅客，會認為這個就是故宮呈現的等級、展演。"],["蕭院長宗煌：是，跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：這是故宮的招牌。"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在在問的是，我們的SOP到底是什麼？你現在居然說原來是傳統藝術中心的人知道院長的email，就寫個email問院長可不可以，自己先偷偷看過了。未來任何人有院長的email，大家都可以主動找你，都不用透過這一些官員，「校長兼撞鐘」。"],["蕭院長宗煌：報告委員，給我那個email，我查了我的批註是請南院研議，所以他們之後又辦了兩次會勘，也開過會議。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。"],["蕭院長宗煌：所以有程序在走，並不是院長說可以就可以，院長說不可以就不可以。目前……"],["洪委員孟楷：但是大家第一個窗口居然是要找院長。"],["蕭院長宗煌：到目前為止……"],["洪委員孟楷：這樣就不對了。"],["蕭院長宗煌：我知道那樣不對，就像小病不要去大醫院一樣，我只是把這個情況的來龍去脈講清楚。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，院長，本席提醒……"],["蕭院長宗煌：現在這個案子還在研議中。"],["洪委員孟楷：請聽本席的詢問再回答，好不好？"],["蕭院長宗煌：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席只提醒，第一，我開宗明義講，不要雙重標準；第二，本席也認為有當代工藝之美可以展演，重點是要經過評估，重點是能夠有完整的、合理的說法，而且對外有教育意義，可以嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，謝謝委員的指導。基本上，我們會針對這個案子召開會議，然後請一些專家學者，大家共同評估。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，院長，再請教你，疫情之後開放、解禁，觀光客也開始進來了，很多人也會說來到臺灣，故宮一定是指標的展演之一，2024年參觀北院的目標人數定到多少人次？"],["蕭院長宗煌：北院的話，去年我們原來希望可以衝破100萬，但去年是155萬，超過我們原來的預估；今年的目標是250萬，再增加100萬。南院的話是100萬。"],["洪委員孟楷：再增加100萬，以250萬為目標？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是全盛時期故宮一年可以達到多少的觀光人次？"],["蕭院長宗煌：全盛時期故宮最高的一年有到五百多萬。"],["洪委員孟楷：2015年529萬。"],["蕭院長宗煌：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，今年應該……"],["蕭院長宗煌：疫情之前是380萬左右。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，來，本席請教你，今年有沒有看到交通部說觀光人數要衝多少？要衝1,200萬。"],["蕭院長宗煌：去年是600萬，現在是1,200萬。"],["洪委員孟楷：1,200萬。"],["蕭院長宗煌：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們來比較2015年，最高的時候故宮可以有529萬，2015年那個時候的觀光人次也不過就是1,000萬出頭，今年既然觀光署已經喊了，交通部也說要1,200萬人次，大家也認為國外的旅客來到臺灣，其實很希望能夠參觀故宮，故宮是不是應該更有自信，更有雄心壯志？既然中央的觀光署、交通部都已經喊出1,200萬的觀光人次，故宮少說也要收一半的觀光人次吧？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有這樣的雄心壯志？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告一下，我們當然很期待，可是入境人數沒有辦法直接轉成參觀故宮的人數。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，沒有錯，所以這才是……"],["蕭院長宗煌：我們也很期待。"],["洪委員孟楷：這是比例推估的問題。院長，你說2015年有五百多萬人次，本國籍占多少？"],["蕭院長宗煌：本國籍過去的比例，我現在手上沒有資料，大概不到……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒關係，本席直接跟你說，我不是要用這個問題考倒你。"],["蕭院長宗煌：我知道。大概兩到三成左右。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席要告訴你的是，委員在這邊質詢都有做功課，而且都準備了相關資料，比你們備詢都還準備得完整。2015年本國籍是100萬人次，外國籍的人數高達420萬人次，所以加起來529萬，10年下來，本國籍的人次差不多最高是100萬上下。換言之，故宮在2015年能夠衝到529萬，有四百多萬都是外國觀光客。一樣的道理，你今年喊出250萬人次，本席也認為250萬的話，本國籍的再怎麼推，它就是有一個天花板，所以差不多是100萬人次，但是外國觀光客怎麼樣可以成長到一倍？150萬？更重要的是，如果交通部觀光署都已經喊出今年1,200萬人次進來的話，150萬只有占1/10。換言之，故宮已經自我打折，認為1,200萬的觀光人次來到臺灣，只有1/10的人會來看故宮，那不就跟我們以前的想像有落差嗎？以前大家會認為故宮是臺灣的寶、我們中華民國的寶，各地的觀光客來都會來看故宮，因為故宮是很重要的景點之一，就如同去英國看大英博物館，去法國看羅浮宮。這個是重要的參考指標、觀光指標，但我們現在已經自我限縮了。本席時間到了，只是想要提醒院長，這個都是數字。"],["蕭院長宗煌：謝謝委員提醒，我們非常期待……"],["洪委員孟楷：這些數據各部會應該要互相整合。"],["蕭院長宗煌：我們也會認真努力往前精進。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，要做出來，每個人都會講我們認真努力，但重點是有沒有做。本席今天第一次質詢，但是我們之前有其他業務，都有互相接觸過，我瞭解你也是要做事的人。最重要的是，我點出這個數字只是要告訴您，希望您用數字管理，希望您用目標管理，希望您以身作則，帶領故宮所有的一級主管、同仁，大家好好努力，可以嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：好，謝謝委員勉勵。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["主席（萬委員美玲代）：謝謝洪孟楷委員。","接下來我們請柯志恩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-2","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳秀寳","張雅琳","林宜瑾","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","林倩綺","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","吳春城","范雲","陳冠廷"],"page_start":323,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130801_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130801_00006"}},"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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,069 --> 00:00:18,565\n國立故宮是文化的故宮,全民的故宮嗎?故宮會有雙重標準嗎?\n\n2\n00:00:27,591 --> 00:00:29,413\n這兩天有一個國民黨籍委員\n\n3\n00:00:43,803 --> 00:01:06,049\n講一件事情說我們故宮現在會在南院會有一個展覽是防品是真猴以邊中復制品要來南院的二樓大廳展示那有人馬上就會聯想到就是說2015年那個時候這個成龍影星有捐出十二生肖的獸首當時被外界質疑說怎麼會\n\n4\n00:01:07,466 --> 00:01:07,486\n﹚廣告\n\n5\n00:01:24,457 --> 00:01:40,392\n那一樣本席先講我認為文化可以分當代近代遠代如果說有教育意義文化意義的話我想大家都可以來推廣但現在我們故宮這樣子來這個爭吼以邊中會不會跟過去的這個立場有所不同\n\n6\n00:01:42,528 --> 00:02:01,920\n跟委員報告一下當然就是說有些事情時代環境不同整個客觀條件不同的話當然會有差異這也不能講說叫做雙重標準那當時那個搜射手的狀況的話因為我不在任內我不太清楚但是\n\n7\n00:02:04,544 --> 00:02:22,418\n我要澄清的就是第一個曾和宇編宗並不是故宮主動要求的他的情況是因為傳譽中心買了這套編宗1997年買了這套編宗那原來是要作為一個展示因為他傳統藝術中心\n\n8\n00:02:24,419 --> 00:02:44,009\n銅器在古代的話除了做了祭器禮器石器之外的話它還有一個非常重要的鐘鼎之業就是說它其實是一個業器那過去的故宮是缺乏這一塊的所以因為因緣際會這一套業器它行回了中山堂然後國務紀念館然後\n\n9\n00:02:45,490 --> 00:03:12,707\n目前的話是那個國立自然科學博物館之後他們是想找一個地方因為這個編宗的編制很完整需要的空間很大那要表演的時候也需要有一個腹地所以他們看上了故宮藍燕他們來勘查然後之後後來我了解了之後是問了同事同事說直接找院長那院長的話的確就是說我有收到他們的那個e-mail我就請藍燕去演出\n\n10\n00:03:13,627 --> 00:03:39,920\n那演出的過程裏面經過...等一下等一下院長來你剛剛講是說這個歷史博物館是不是傳統藝術中心他們先去勘查了然後之後才來找院長說可不可以擺那他們都已經勘查完畢然後之後才來說他們要來做跟委員報告一下他們去通通看過他們覺得那個地方很滿意所以問了同事同事說所以現在是\n\n11\n00:03:41,656 --> 00:03:59,542\n最好是直接找院長所以他們有給我一個email因為我昨天把這個事情的來龍去魔都查證了是所以院長現在是那個傳統藝術中心他是文化部下的單位嘛是對不對那你們文化部跟我們故宮兩個單位是完全沒有連結或是說完全沒有溝通的管道\n\n12\n00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:23,336\n還是沒有公文往返還是現在故宮我現在最訝異的故宮現在展覽你剛先推給說這個是傳統藝術中心來看的並不是故宮主動邀請但有沒有這件事情有嘛那確實如果說5月就會有展出的話那當然地主是故宮大家一定會認為說這是故宮無論你是主動或是被動那你也是認可這樣的一個展覽嘛\n\n13\n00:04:24,316 --> 00:04:43,397\n基本上來講的話現在變成沒有機制還是說故宮沒有審查的機制或說沒有任何的這種考慮的機制評分的機制還是每一個人都要找院長那就看院長的人情跟誰比較大人脈比較廣還是以前院長當過文化部的主秘所以文化部比較好講話\n\n14\n00:04:44,827 --> 00:04:57,206\n跟委員報告不是啦因為基本上來講的話現在的行政慣例的話就好像是生了感冒小病都要去大醫院一樣就是什麼事情的話都會推說上面決定上面決定\n\n15\n00:05:00,884 --> 00:05:28,517\n讓本席感到膽戰心驚喔南院的展覽沒有一套的SOP嗎全部都變成是說委員長拍板定案不是跟委員報告這是一個教育推廣活動那因為這個事情的話當然沒有錯陳理委員講的他牽涉到文化部的相關的關係所以是比較敏感如果是同人自己辦的一個教育推廣活動請一個樂團來表演這些東西的話南院就自己可以做決定了\n\n16\n00:05:28,937 --> 00:05:49,431\n所以應該會有SOP嘛或者說他今天有什麼樣的展覽有什麼樣的推廣有什麼樣的教育符不符合在這個南院的場地因為南院的場地可能沒有場租你國人來看到參觀的民眾不管是外國旅客不管是本國旅客來看到會認為說這個就是故宮呈現的等級的展演嘛\n\n17\n00:05:50,471 --> 00:06:11,869\n這是故宮的招牌那我現在在問的是說我們的SOP到底是什麼你現在居然講是說原來是傳統藝術中心的人知道說有院長email我就寫個email問院長說可不可以我自己先偷偷看過了那未來有任何人有院長的email大家都可以主動找你都不用透過我們這一系的官員\n\n18\n00:06:13,177 --> 00:06:14,539\n校長兼狀宗但是大家第一個窗口就要找院長\n\n19\n00:06:36,121 --> 00:06:41,825\n院長請聽本席的詢問那您再回答好不好本席只提醒第一我開宗明義講不要雙重標準第二本席也認為說有當代公益之美能夠展演可以展演\n\n20\n00:07:03,243 --> 00:07:11,156\n重點是要經過評估重點是經過我們能夠有一個完整的合理的說法而且對外有教育意義\n\n21\n00:07:12,557 --> 00:07:40,210\n可以嗎?對對對謝謝瑞水委員的指導來那再來基本上來講的話我們會針對這個案子我們召開會議然後請一些專家寫成大家共同來評論好院長那再請教現在我們開放的這個疫情之後開放解禁然後剛剛開始觀光會進來了那很多人也會講是說哇來到台灣故宮一定是一個指標的一個展演之一那現在2024年我們參觀的目標人數定到多少人次\n\n22\n00:07:41,031 --> 00:07:42,022\n而二齡委員．\n\n23\n00:07:43,294 --> 00:08:10,930\n北苑的話,去年的話我們原來希望可以衝破一百萬但去年的話是一百五十五萬就超過我們原來的預估那今年的話我們會以目標兩百五十萬就再增加一百萬為目標那南苑的話是一百萬那增加一百萬兩百五十萬為目標對但是我們全盛時期故宮一年可以到多少的觀光人士全盛時期的話故宮當然最高最高的一年的話有到五百多萬\n\n24\n00:08:12,311 --> 00:08:31,165\n2015年529萬好那今年疫情之前的話是380萬左右是來本席請教今年有沒有看到說交通部我們觀光的人數要衝多少要衝1200萬去年是600然後現在是1200對1200萬嘛對那我們來比較2015年最高的時候故宮可以有529萬對\n\n25\n00:08:40,043 --> 00:08:43,832\n2015年那個時候的觀光人次也不過就是一千萬出頭\n\n26\n00:08:44,782 --> 00:09:09,284\n今年既然觀光局也已經喊了交通部也是說要1200萬人次而大家也認為是說國外的旅客來到台灣其實也很希望說能夠來參觀故宮那故宮是不是應該要更有自信更有雄心壯志既然整個中央觀光局交通部都已經喊出1200萬的觀光人次的話那故宮少說也要收一半的觀光人次吧\n\n27\n00:09:10,585 --> 00:09:27,749\n有沒有這樣的雄心壯志跟委員報告一樣我們當然很期待可是那個入境的人數的話沒有辦法直接轉成那個參觀故宮的人數是沒有錯所以說這才是這是比例推估的問題院長本席要跟你講的是2015年你講說500多萬人次本國級占多少\n\n28\n00:09:31,803 --> 00:09:55,220\n本國籍的話過去的比例的話本國籍的話我現在手上沒有資料沒關係本席直接跟你說我不是要用這個問題考導你我知道大概兩到三成左右來院長本席要告訴你的是委員在這邊質詢都有做功課而且都準備了相關資料比你們備詢都還要準備得完整2015年本國籍是100萬人次\n\n29\n00:09:56,801 --> 00:10:17,155\n外國籍人數有高達420萬人次所以加起來529萬而歷年10年下來我們本國籍的人次都差不多最高是100萬上下換言之故宮在2015年能夠衝到529萬有400多萬都是外國觀光客所以一樣的道理嘛你今年喊出了250萬的人次\n\n30\n00:10:19,176 --> 00:10:48,425\n本席也認為是說你250萬的話你本國籍你要再怎麼推因為他就有一個天花板所以也差不多是100萬人次但是你的外國觀光客怎麼樣可以成長到一倍150萬而更重要的是今天如果說交通部觀光局都已經喊出了今年要喊1200萬人次要進來的話你150萬只有占十分之一耶換言之你故宮已經自我去打折了認為是說1200萬的觀光人次來到台灣只有十分之一的人會來看故宮\n\n31\n00:10:49,943 --> 00:11:14,090\n那不就是跟我們以前的想像是有落差嗎以前大家會認為故宮是台灣的寶我們中華民國的寶各地觀光客來都來看故宮因為故宮是一個很重要的景點之一就如同我們去英國大英博物館我們去法國羅浮宮這個是重要的參考指標觀光指標但我們現在已經自我限縮了所以本席時間到了只是想要提醒院長\n\n32\n00:11:15,649 --> 00:11:42,112\n這些都是數字這些數字都是各部會應該要互相整合院長要做出來啦不是說只是每一個人都會講我們認真努力但重點是有沒有做那本席今天第一次質詢我們之前也都有其他業務都有互相的接觸過我了解你也是要做事的人\n\n33\n00:11:42,572 --> 00:11:57,045\n但最重要的是我點出這個數字只是要告訴您說希望用數字管理希望用目標管理希望您以身作則帶領我們故宮所有的這一些一級主管同仁大家好好努力可以嗎好謝謝委員的勉勵\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n69\t18565\t國立故宮是文化的故宮,全民的故宮嗎?故宮會有雙重標準嗎?\n27591\t29413\t這兩天有一個國民黨籍委員\n43803\t66049\t講一件事情說我們故宮現在會在南院會有一個展覽是防品是真猴以邊中復制品要來南院的二樓大廳展示那有人馬上就會聯想到就是說2015年那個時候這個成龍影星有捐出十二生肖的獸首當時被外界質疑說怎麼會\n67466\t67486\t﹚廣告\n84457\t100392\t那一樣本席先講我認為文化可以分當代近代遠代如果說有教育意義文化意義的話我想大家都可以來推廣但現在我們故宮這樣子來這個爭吼以邊中會不會跟過去的這個立場有所不同\n102528\t121920\t跟委員報告一下當然就是說有些事情時代環境不同整個客觀條件不同的話當然會有差異這也不能講說叫做雙重標準那當時那個搜射手的狀況的話因為我不在任內我不太清楚但是\n124544\t142418\t我要澄清的就是第一個曾和宇編宗並不是故宮主動要求的他的情況是因為傳譽中心買了這套編宗1997年買了這套編宗那原來是要作為一個展示因為他傳統藝術中心\n144419\t164009\t銅器在古代的話除了做了祭器禮器石器之外的話它還有一個非常重要的鐘鼎之業就是說它其實是一個業器那過去的故宮是缺乏這一塊的所以因為因緣際會這一套業器它行回了中山堂然後國務紀念館然後\n165490\t192707\t目前的話是那個國立自然科學博物館之後他們是想找一個地方因為這個編宗的編制很完整需要的空間很大那要表演的時候也需要有一個腹地所以他們看上了故宮藍燕他們來勘查然後之後後來我了解了之後是問了同事同事說直接找院長那院長的話的確就是說我有收到他們的那個e-mail我就請藍燕去演出\n193627\t219920\t那演出的過程裏面經過...等一下等一下院長來你剛剛講是說這個歷史博物館是不是傳統藝術中心他們先去勘查了然後之後才來找院長說可不可以擺那他們都已經勘查完畢然後之後才來說他們要來做跟委員報告一下他們去通通看過他們覺得那個地方很滿意所以問了同事同事說所以現在是\n221656\t239542\t最好是直接找院長所以他們有給我一個email因為我昨天把這個事情的來龍去魔都查證了是所以院長現在是那個傳統藝術中心他是文化部下的單位嘛是對不對那你們文化部跟我們故宮兩個單位是完全沒有連結或是說完全沒有溝通的管道\n240680\t263336\t還是沒有公文往返還是現在故宮我現在最訝異的故宮現在展覽你剛先推給說這個是傳統藝術中心來看的並不是故宮主動邀請但有沒有這件事情有嘛那確實如果說5月就會有展出的話那當然地主是故宮大家一定會認為說這是故宮無論你是主動或是被動那你也是認可這樣的一個展覽嘛\n264316\t283397\t基本上來講的話現在變成沒有機制還是說故宮沒有審查的機制或說沒有任何的這種考慮的機制評分的機制還是每一個人都要找院長那就看院長的人情跟誰比較大人脈比較廣還是以前院長當過文化部的主秘所以文化部比較好講話\n284827\t297206\t跟委員報告不是啦因為基本上來講的話現在的行政慣例的話就好像是生了感冒小病都要去大醫院一樣就是什麼事情的話都會推說上面決定上面決定\n300884\t328517\t讓本席感到膽戰心驚喔南院的展覽沒有一套的SOP嗎全部都變成是說委員長拍板定案不是跟委員報告這是一個教育推廣活動那因為這個事情的話當然沒有錯陳理委員講的他牽涉到文化部的相關的關係所以是比較敏感如果是同人自己辦的一個教育推廣活動請一個樂團來表演這些東西的話南院就自己可以做決定了\n328937\t349431\t所以應該會有SOP嘛或者說他今天有什麼樣的展覽有什麼樣的推廣有什麼樣的教育符不符合在這個南院的場地因為南院的場地可能沒有場租你國人來看到參觀的民眾不管是外國旅客不管是本國旅客來看到會認為說這個就是故宮呈現的等級的展演嘛\n350471\t371869\t這是故宮的招牌那我現在在問的是說我們的SOP到底是什麼你現在居然講是說原來是傳統藝術中心的人知道說有院長email我就寫個email問院長說可不可以我自己先偷偷看過了那未來有任何人有院長的email大家都可以主動找你都不用透過我們這一系的官員\n373177\t374539\t校長兼狀宗但是大家第一個窗口就要找院長\n396121\t401825\t院長請聽本席的詢問那您再回答好不好本席只提醒第一我開宗明義講不要雙重標準第二本席也認為說有當代公益之美能夠展演可以展演\n423243\t431156\t重點是要經過評估重點是經過我們能夠有一個完整的合理的說法而且對外有教育意義\n432557\t460210\t可以嗎?對對對謝謝瑞水委員的指導來那再來基本上來講的話我們會針對這個案子我們召開會議然後請一些專家寫成大家共同來評論好院長那再請教現在我們開放的這個疫情之後開放解禁然後剛剛開始觀光會進來了那很多人也會講是說哇來到台灣故宮一定是一個指標的一個展演之一那現在2024年我們參觀的目標人數定到多少人次\n461031\t462022\t而二齡委員．\n463294\t490930\t北苑的話,去年的話我們原來希望可以衝破一百萬但去年的話是一百五十五萬就超過我們原來的預估那今年的話我們會以目標兩百五十萬就再增加一百萬為目標那南苑的話是一百萬那增加一百萬兩百五十萬為目標對但是我們全盛時期故宮一年可以到多少的觀光人士全盛時期的話故宮當然最高最高的一年的話有到五百多萬\n492311\t511165\t2015年529萬好那今年疫情之前的話是380萬左右是來本席請教今年有沒有看到說交通部我們觀光的人數要衝多少要衝1200萬去年是600然後現在是1200對1200萬嘛對那我們來比較2015年最高的時候故宮可以有529萬對\n520043\t523832\t2015年那個時候的觀光人次也不過就是一千萬出頭\n524782\t549284\t今年既然觀光局也已經喊了交通部也是說要1200萬人次而大家也認為是說國外的旅客來到台灣其實也很希望說能夠來參觀故宮那故宮是不是應該要更有自信更有雄心壯志既然整個中央觀光局交通部都已經喊出1200萬的觀光人次的話那故宮少說也要收一半的觀光人次吧\n550585\t567749\t有沒有這樣的雄心壯志跟委員報告一樣我們當然很期待可是那個入境的人數的話沒有辦法直接轉成那個參觀故宮的人數是沒有錯所以說這才是這是比例推估的問題院長本席要跟你講的是2015年你講說500多萬人次本國級占多少\n571803\t595220\t本國籍的話過去的比例的話本國籍的話我現在手上沒有資料沒關係本席直接跟你說我不是要用這個問題考導你我知道大概兩到三成左右來院長本席要告訴你的是委員在這邊質詢都有做功課而且都準備了相關資料比你們備詢都還要準備得完整2015年本國籍是100萬人次\n596801\t617155\t外國籍人數有高達420萬人次所以加起來529萬而歷年10年下來我們本國籍的人次都差不多最高是100萬上下換言之故宮在2015年能夠衝到529萬有400多萬都是外國觀光客所以一樣的道理嘛你今年喊出了250萬的人次\n619176\t648425\t本席也認為是說你250萬的話你本國籍你要再怎麼推因為他就有一個天花板所以也差不多是100萬人次但是你的外國觀光客怎麼樣可以成長到一倍150萬而更重要的是今天如果說交通部觀光局都已經喊出了今年要喊1200萬人次要進來的話你150萬只有占十分之一耶換言之你故宮已經自我去打折了認為是說1200萬的觀光人次來到台灣只有十分之一的人會來看故宮\n649943\t674090\t那不就是跟我們以前的想像是有落差嗎以前大家會認為故宮是台灣的寶我們中華民國的寶各地觀光客來都來看故宮因為故宮是一個很重要的景點之一就如同我們去英國大英博物館我們去法國羅浮宮這個是重要的參考指標觀光指標但我們現在已經自我限縮了所以本席時間到了只是想要提醒院長\n675649\t702112\t這些都是數字這些數字都是各部會應該要互相整合院長要做出來啦不是說只是每一個人都會講我們認真努力但重點是有沒有做那本席今天第一次質詢我們之前也都有其他業務都有互相的接觸過我了解你也是要做事的人\n702572\t717045\t但最重要的是我點出這個數字只是要告訴您說希望用數字管理希望用目標管理希望您以身作則帶領我們故宮所有的這一些一級主管同仁大家好好努力可以嗎好謝謝委員的勉勵\n","txt":"國立故宮是文化的故宮,全民的故宮嗎?故宮會有雙重標準嗎?\n這兩天有一個國民黨籍委員\n講一件事情說我們故宮現在會在南院會有一個展覽是防品是真猴以邊中復制品要來南院的二樓大廳展示那有人馬上就會聯想到就是說2015年那個時候這個成龍影星有捐出十二生肖的獸首當時被外界質疑說怎麼會\n﹚廣告\n那一樣本席先講我認為文化可以分當代近代遠代如果說有教育意義文化意義的話我想大家都可以來推廣但現在我們故宮這樣子來這個爭吼以邊中會不會跟過去的這個立場有所不同\n跟委員報告一下當然就是說有些事情時代環境不同整個客觀條件不同的話當然會有差異這也不能講說叫做雙重標準那當時那個搜射手的狀況的話因為我不在任內我不太清楚但是\n我要澄清的就是第一個曾和宇編宗並不是故宮主動要求的他的情況是因為傳譽中心買了這套編宗1997年買了這套編宗那原來是要作為一個展示因為他傳統藝術中心\n銅器在古代的話除了做了祭器禮器石器之外的話它還有一個非常重要的鐘鼎之業就是說它其實是一個業器那過去的故宮是缺乏這一塊的所以因為因緣際會這一套業器它行回了中山堂然後國務紀念館然後\n目前的話是那個國立自然科學博物館之後他們是想找一個地方因為這個編宗的編制很完整需要的空間很大那要表演的時候也需要有一個腹地所以他們看上了故宮藍燕他們來勘查然後之後後來我了解了之後是問了同事同事說直接找院長那院長的話的確就是說我有收到他們的那個e-mail我就請藍燕去演出\n那演出的過程裏面經過...等一下等一下院長來你剛剛講是說這個歷史博物館是不是傳統藝術中心他們先去勘查了然後之後才來找院長說可不可以擺那他們都已經勘查完畢然後之後才來說他們要來做跟委員報告一下他們去通通看過他們覺得那個地方很滿意所以問了同事同事說所以現在是\n最好是直接找院長所以他們有給我一個email因為我昨天把這個事情的來龍去魔都查證了是所以院長現在是那個傳統藝術中心他是文化部下的單位嘛是對不對那你們文化部跟我們故宮兩個單位是完全沒有連結或是說完全沒有溝通的管道\n還是沒有公文往返還是現在故宮我現在最訝異的故宮現在展覽你剛先推給說這個是傳統藝術中心來看的並不是故宮主動邀請但有沒有這件事情有嘛那確實如果說5月就會有展出的話那當然地主是故宮大家一定會認為說這是故宮無論你是主動或是被動那你也是認可這樣的一個展覽嘛\n基本上來講的話現在變成沒有機制還是說故宮沒有審查的機制或說沒有任何的這種考慮的機制評分的機制還是每一個人都要找院長那就看院長的人情跟誰比較大人脈比較廣還是以前院長當過文化部的主秘所以文化部比較好講話\n跟委員報告不是啦因為基本上來講的話現在的行政慣例的話就好像是生了感冒小病都要去大醫院一樣就是什麼事情的話都會推說上面決定上面決定\n讓本席感到膽戰心驚喔南院的展覽沒有一套的SOP嗎全部都變成是說委員長拍板定案不是跟委員報告這是一個教育推廣活動那因為這個事情的話當然沒有錯陳理委員講的他牽涉到文化部的相關的關係所以是比較敏感如果是同人自己辦的一個教育推廣活動請一個樂團來表演這些東西的話南院就自己可以做決定了\n所以應該會有SOP嘛或者說他今天有什麼樣的展覽有什麼樣的推廣有什麼樣的教育符不符合在這個南院的場地因為南院的場地可能沒有場租你國人來看到參觀的民眾不管是外國旅客不管是本國旅客來看到會認為說這個就是故宮呈現的等級的展演嘛\n這是故宮的招牌那我現在在問的是說我們的SOP到底是什麼你現在居然講是說原來是傳統藝術中心的人知道說有院長email我就寫個email問院長說可不可以我自己先偷偷看過了那未來有任何人有院長的email大家都可以主動找你都不用透過我們這一系的官員\n校長兼狀宗但是大家第一個窗口就要找院長\n院長請聽本席的詢問那您再回答好不好本席只提醒第一我開宗明義講不要雙重標準第二本席也認為說有當代公益之美能夠展演可以展演\n重點是要經過評估重點是經過我們能夠有一個完整的合理的說法而且對外有教育意義\n可以嗎?對對對謝謝瑞水委員的指導來那再來基本上來講的話我們會針對這個案子我們召開會議然後請一些專家寫成大家共同來評論好院長那再請教現在我們開放的這個疫情之後開放解禁然後剛剛開始觀光會進來了那很多人也會講是說哇來到台灣故宮一定是一個指標的一個展演之一那現在2024年我們參觀的目標人數定到多少人次\n而二齡委員．\n北苑的話,去年的話我們原來希望可以衝破一百萬但去年的話是一百五十五萬就超過我們原來的預估那今年的話我們會以目標兩百五十萬就再增加一百萬為目標那南苑的話是一百萬那增加一百萬兩百五十萬為目標對但是我們全盛時期故宮一年可以到多少的觀光人士全盛時期的話故宮當然最高最高的一年的話有到五百多萬\n2015年529萬好那今年疫情之前的話是380萬左右是來本席請教今年有沒有看到說交通部我們觀光的人數要衝多少要衝1200萬去年是600然後現在是1200對1200萬嘛對那我們來比較2015年最高的時候故宮可以有529萬對\n2015年那個時候的觀光人次也不過就是一千萬出頭\n今年既然觀光局也已經喊了交通部也是說要1200萬人次而大家也認為是說國外的旅客來到台灣其實也很希望說能夠來參觀故宮那故宮是不是應該要更有自信更有雄心壯志既然整個中央觀光局交通部都已經喊出1200萬的觀光人次的話那故宮少說也要收一半的觀光人次吧\n有沒有這樣的雄心壯志跟委員報告一樣我們當然很期待可是那個入境的人數的話沒有辦法直接轉成那個參觀故宮的人數是沒有錯所以說這才是這是比例推估的問題院長本席要跟你講的是2015年你講說500多萬人次本國級占多少\n本國籍的話過去的比例的話本國籍的話我現在手上沒有資料沒關係本席直接跟你說我不是要用這個問題考導你我知道大概兩到三成左右來院長本席要告訴你的是委員在這邊質詢都有做功課而且都準備了相關資料比你們備詢都還要準備得完整2015年本國籍是100萬人次\n外國籍人數有高達420萬人次所以加起來529萬而歷年10年下來我們本國籍的人次都差不多最高是100萬上下換言之故宮在2015年能夠衝到529萬有400多萬都是外國觀光客所以一樣的道理嘛你今年喊出了250萬的人次\n本席也認為是說你250萬的話你本國籍你要再怎麼推因為他就有一個天花板所以也差不多是100萬人次但是你的外國觀光客怎麼樣可以成長到一倍150萬而更重要的是今天如果說交通部觀光局都已經喊出了今年要喊1200萬人次要進來的話你150萬只有占十分之一耶換言之你故宮已經自我去打折了認為是說1200萬的觀光人次來到台灣只有十分之一的人會來看故宮\n那不就是跟我們以前的想像是有落差嗎以前大家會認為故宮是台灣的寶我們中華民國的寶各地觀光客來都來看故宮因為故宮是一個很重要的景點之一就如同我們去英國大英博物館我們去法國羅浮宮這個是重要的參考指標觀光指標但我們現在已經自我限縮了所以本席時間到了只是想要提醒院長\n這些都是數字這些數字都是各部會應該要互相整合院長要做出來啦不是說只是每一個人都會講我們認真努力但重點是有沒有做那本席今天第一次質詢我們之前也都有其他業務都有互相的接觸過我了解你也是要做事的人\n但最重要的是我點出這個數字只是要告訴您說希望用數字管理希望用目標管理希望您以身作則帶領我們故宮所有的這一些一級主管同仁大家好好努力可以嗎好謝謝委員的勉勵\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.069 --> 00:18.565\n國立故宮是文化的故宮,全民的故宮嗎?故宮會有雙重標準嗎?\n\n00:27.591 --> 00:29.413\n這兩天有一個國民黨籍委員\n\n00:43.803 --> 01:06.049\n講一件事情說我們故宮現在會在南院會有一個展覽是防品是真猴以邊中復制品要來南院的二樓大廳展示那有人馬上就會聯想到就是說2015年那個時候這個成龍影星有捐出十二生肖的獸首當時被外界質疑說怎麼會\n\n01:07.466 --> 01:07.486\n﹚廣告\n\n01:24.457 --> 01:40.392\n那一樣本席先講我認為文化可以分當代近代遠代如果說有教育意義文化意義的話我想大家都可以來推廣但現在我們故宮這樣子來這個爭吼以邊中會不會跟過去的這個立場有所不同\n\n01:42.528 --> 02:01.920\n跟委員報告一下當然就是說有些事情時代環境不同整個客觀條件不同的話當然會有差異這也不能講說叫做雙重標準那當時那個搜射手的狀況的話因為我不在任內我不太清楚但是\n\n02:04.544 --> 02:22.418\n我要澄清的就是第一個曾和宇編宗並不是故宮主動要求的他的情況是因為傳譽中心買了這套編宗1997年買了這套編宗那原來是要作為一個展示因為他傳統藝術中心\n\n02:24.419 --> 02:44.009\n銅器在古代的話除了做了祭器禮器石器之外的話它還有一個非常重要的鐘鼎之業就是說它其實是一個業器那過去的故宮是缺乏這一塊的所以因為因緣際會這一套業器它行回了中山堂然後國務紀念館然後\n\n02:45.490 --> 03:12.707\n目前的話是那個國立自然科學博物館之後他們是想找一個地方因為這個編宗的編制很完整需要的空間很大那要表演的時候也需要有一個腹地所以他們看上了故宮藍燕他們來勘查然後之後後來我了解了之後是問了同事同事說直接找院長那院長的話的確就是說我有收到他們的那個e-mail我就請藍燕去演出\n\n03:13.627 --> 03:39.920\n那演出的過程裏面經過...等一下等一下院長來你剛剛講是說這個歷史博物館是不是傳統藝術中心他們先去勘查了然後之後才來找院長說可不可以擺那他們都已經勘查完畢然後之後才來說他們要來做跟委員報告一下他們去通通看過他們覺得那個地方很滿意所以問了同事同事說所以現在是\n\n03:41.656 --> 03:59.542\n最好是直接找院長所以他們有給我一個email因為我昨天把這個事情的來龍去魔都查證了是所以院長現在是那個傳統藝術中心他是文化部下的單位嘛是對不對那你們文化部跟我們故宮兩個單位是完全沒有連結或是說完全沒有溝通的管道\n\n04:00.680 --> 04:23.336\n還是沒有公文往返還是現在故宮我現在最訝異的故宮現在展覽你剛先推給說這個是傳統藝術中心來看的並不是故宮主動邀請但有沒有這件事情有嘛那確實如果說5月就會有展出的話那當然地主是故宮大家一定會認為說這是故宮無論你是主動或是被動那你也是認可這樣的一個展覽嘛\n\n04:24.316 --> 04:43.397\n基本上來講的話現在變成沒有機制還是說故宮沒有審查的機制或說沒有任何的這種考慮的機制評分的機制還是每一個人都要找院長那就看院長的人情跟誰比較大人脈比較廣還是以前院長當過文化部的主秘所以文化部比較好講話\n\n04:44.827 --> 04:57.206\n跟委員報告不是啦因為基本上來講的話現在的行政慣例的話就好像是生了感冒小病都要去大醫院一樣就是什麼事情的話都會推說上面決定上面決定\n\n05:00.884 --> 05:28.517\n讓本席感到膽戰心驚喔南院的展覽沒有一套的SOP嗎全部都變成是說委員長拍板定案不是跟委員報告這是一個教育推廣活動那因為這個事情的話當然沒有錯陳理委員講的他牽涉到文化部的相關的關係所以是比較敏感如果是同人自己辦的一個教育推廣活動請一個樂團來表演這些東西的話南院就自己可以做決定了\n\n05:28.937 --> 05:49.431\n所以應該會有SOP嘛或者說他今天有什麼樣的展覽有什麼樣的推廣有什麼樣的教育符不符合在這個南院的場地因為南院的場地可能沒有場租你國人來看到參觀的民眾不管是外國旅客不管是本國旅客來看到會認為說這個就是故宮呈現的等級的展演嘛\n\n05:50.471 --> 06:11.869\n這是故宮的招牌那我現在在問的是說我們的SOP到底是什麼你現在居然講是說原來是傳統藝術中心的人知道說有院長email我就寫個email問院長說可不可以我自己先偷偷看過了那未來有任何人有院長的email大家都可以主動找你都不用透過我們這一系的官員\n\n06:13.177 --> 06:14.539\n校長兼狀宗但是大家第一個窗口就要找院長\n\n06:36.121 --> 06:41.825\n院長請聽本席的詢問那您再回答好不好本席只提醒第一我開宗明義講不要雙重標準第二本席也認為說有當代公益之美能夠展演可以展演\n\n07:03.243 --> 07:11.156\n重點是要經過評估重點是經過我們能夠有一個完整的合理的說法而且對外有教育意義\n\n07:12.557 --> 07:40.210\n可以嗎?對對對謝謝瑞水委員的指導來那再來基本上來講的話我們會針對這個案子我們召開會議然後請一些專家寫成大家共同來評論好院長那再請教現在我們開放的這個疫情之後開放解禁然後剛剛開始觀光會進來了那很多人也會講是說哇來到台灣故宮一定是一個指標的一個展演之一那現在2024年我們參觀的目標人數定到多少人次\n\n07:41.031 --> 07:42.022\n而二齡委員．\n\n07:43.294 --> 08:10.930\n北苑的話,去年的話我們原來希望可以衝破一百萬但去年的話是一百五十五萬就超過我們原來的預估那今年的話我們會以目標兩百五十萬就再增加一百萬為目標那南苑的話是一百萬那增加一百萬兩百五十萬為目標對但是我們全盛時期故宮一年可以到多少的觀光人士全盛時期的話故宮當然最高最高的一年的話有到五百多萬\n\n08:12.311 --> 08:31.165\n2015年529萬好那今年疫情之前的話是380萬左右是來本席請教今年有沒有看到說交通部我們觀光的人數要衝多少要衝1200萬去年是600然後現在是1200對1200萬嘛對那我們來比較2015年最高的時候故宮可以有529萬對\n\n08:40.043 --> 08:43.832\n2015年那個時候的觀光人次也不過就是一千萬出頭\n\n08:44.782 --> 09:09.284\n今年既然觀光局也已經喊了交通部也是說要1200萬人次而大家也認為是說國外的旅客來到台灣其實也很希望說能夠來參觀故宮那故宮是不是應該要更有自信更有雄心壯志既然整個中央觀光局交通部都已經喊出1200萬的觀光人次的話那故宮少說也要收一半的觀光人次吧\n\n09:10.585 --> 09:27.749\n有沒有這樣的雄心壯志跟委員報告一樣我們當然很期待可是那個入境的人數的話沒有辦法直接轉成那個參觀故宮的人數是沒有錯所以說這才是這是比例推估的問題院長本席要跟你講的是2015年你講說500多萬人次本國級占多少\n\n09:31.803 --> 09:55.220\n本國籍的話過去的比例的話本國籍的話我現在手上沒有資料沒關係本席直接跟你說我不是要用這個問題考導你我知道大概兩到三成左右來院長本席要告訴你的是委員在這邊質詢都有做功課而且都準備了相關資料比你們備詢都還要準備得完整2015年本國籍是100萬人次\n\n09:56.801 --> 10:17.155\n外國籍人數有高達420萬人次所以加起來529萬而歷年10年下來我們本國籍的人次都差不多最高是100萬上下換言之故宮在2015年能夠衝到529萬有400多萬都是外國觀光客所以一樣的道理嘛你今年喊出了250萬的人次\n\n10:19.176 --> 10:48.425\n本席也認為是說你250萬的話你本國籍你要再怎麼推因為他就有一個天花板所以也差不多是100萬人次但是你的外國觀光客怎麼樣可以成長到一倍150萬而更重要的是今天如果說交通部觀光局都已經喊出了今年要喊1200萬人次要進來的話你150萬只有占十分之一耶換言之你故宮已經自我去打折了認為是說1200萬的觀光人次來到台灣只有十分之一的人會來看故宮\n\n10:49.943 --> 11:14.090\n那不就是跟我們以前的想像是有落差嗎以前大家會認為故宮是台灣的寶我們中華民國的寶各地觀光客來都來看故宮因為故宮是一個很重要的景點之一就如同我們去英國大英博物館我們去法國羅浮宮這個是重要的參考指標觀光指標但我們現在已經自我限縮了所以本席時間到了只是想要提醒院長\n\n11:15.649 --> 11:42.112\n這些都是數字這些數字都是各部會應該要互相整合院長要做出來啦不是說只是每一個人都會講我們認真努力但重點是有沒有做那本席今天第一次質詢我們之前也都有其他業務都有互相的接觸過我了解你也是要做事的人\n\n11:42.572 --> 11:57.045\n但最重要的是我點出這個數字只是要告訴您說希望用數字管理希望用目標管理希望您以身作則帶領我們故宮所有的這一些一級主管同仁大家好好努力可以嗎好謝謝委員的勉勵\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.069,"end":18.565,"text":"國立故宮是文化的故宮,全民的故宮嗎?故宮會有雙重標準嗎?"},{"start":27.591,"end":29.413,"text":"這兩天有一個國民黨籍委員"},{"start":43.803,"end":66.049,"text":"講一件事情說我們故宮現在會在南院會有一個展覽是防品是真猴以邊中復制品要來南院的二樓大廳展示那有人馬上就會聯想到就是說2015年那個時候這個成龍影星有捐出十二生肖的獸首當時被外界質疑說怎麼會"},{"start":67.466,"end":67.486,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":84.457,"end":100.392,"text":"那一樣本席先講我認為文化可以分當代近代遠代如果說有教育意義文化意義的話我想大家都可以來推廣但現在我們故宮這樣子來這個爭吼以邊中會不會跟過去的這個立場有所不同"},{"start":102.528,"end":121.92,"text":"跟委員報告一下當然就是說有些事情時代環境不同整個客觀條件不同的話當然會有差異這也不能講說叫做雙重標準那當時那個搜射手的狀況的話因為我不在任內我不太清楚但是"},{"start":124.544,"end":142.418,"text":"我要澄清的就是第一個曾和宇編宗並不是故宮主動要求的他的情況是因為傳譽中心買了這套編宗1997年買了這套編宗那原來是要作為一個展示因為他傳統藝術中心"},{"start":144.419,"end":164.009,"text":"銅器在古代的話除了做了祭器禮器石器之外的話它還有一個非常重要的鐘鼎之業就是說它其實是一個業器那過去的故宮是缺乏這一塊的所以因為因緣際會這一套業器它行回了中山堂然後國務紀念館然後"},{"start":165.49,"end":192.707,"text":"目前的話是那個國立自然科學博物館之後他們是想找一個地方因為這個編宗的編制很完整需要的空間很大那要表演的時候也需要有一個腹地所以他們看上了故宮藍燕他們來勘查然後之後後來我了解了之後是問了同事同事說直接找院長那院長的話的確就是說我有收到他們的那個e-mail我就請藍燕去演出"},{"start":193.627,"end":219.92,"text":"那演出的過程裏面經過...等一下等一下院長來你剛剛講是說這個歷史博物館是不是傳統藝術中心他們先去勘查了然後之後才來找院長說可不可以擺那他們都已經勘查完畢然後之後才來說他們要來做跟委員報告一下他們去通通看過他們覺得那個地方很滿意所以問了同事同事說所以現在是"},{"start":221.656,"end":239.542,"text":"最好是直接找院長所以他們有給我一個email因為我昨天把這個事情的來龍去魔都查證了是所以院長現在是那個傳統藝術中心他是文化部下的單位嘛是對不對那你們文化部跟我們故宮兩個單位是完全沒有連結或是說完全沒有溝通的管道"},{"start":240.68,"end":263.336,"text":"還是沒有公文往返還是現在故宮我現在最訝異的故宮現在展覽你剛先推給說這個是傳統藝術中心來看的並不是故宮主動邀請但有沒有這件事情有嘛那確實如果說5月就會有展出的話那當然地主是故宮大家一定會認為說這是故宮無論你是主動或是被動那你也是認可這樣的一個展覽嘛"},{"start":264.316,"end":283.397,"text":"基本上來講的話現在變成沒有機制還是說故宮沒有審查的機制或說沒有任何的這種考慮的機制評分的機制還是每一個人都要找院長那就看院長的人情跟誰比較大人脈比較廣還是以前院長當過文化部的主秘所以文化部比較好講話"},{"start":284.827,"end":297.206,"text":"跟委員報告不是啦因為基本上來講的話現在的行政慣例的話就好像是生了感冒小病都要去大醫院一樣就是什麼事情的話都會推說上面決定上面決定"},{"start":300.884,"end":328.517,"text":"讓本席感到膽戰心驚喔南院的展覽沒有一套的SOP嗎全部都變成是說委員長拍板定案不是跟委員報告這是一個教育推廣活動那因為這個事情的話當然沒有錯陳理委員講的他牽涉到文化部的相關的關係所以是比較敏感如果是同人自己辦的一個教育推廣活動請一個樂團來表演這些東西的話南院就自己可以做決定了"},{"start":328.937,"end":349.431,"text":"所以應該會有SOP嘛或者說他今天有什麼樣的展覽有什麼樣的推廣有什麼樣的教育符不符合在這個南院的場地因為南院的場地可能沒有場租你國人來看到參觀的民眾不管是外國旅客不管是本國旅客來看到會認為說這個就是故宮呈現的等級的展演嘛"},{"start":350.471,"end":371.869,"text":"這是故宮的招牌那我現在在問的是說我們的SOP到底是什麼你現在居然講是說原來是傳統藝術中心的人知道說有院長email我就寫個email問院長說可不可以我自己先偷偷看過了那未來有任何人有院長的email大家都可以主動找你都不用透過我們這一系的官員"},{"start":373.177,"end":374.539,"text":"校長兼狀宗但是大家第一個窗口就要找院長"},{"start":396.121,"end":401.825,"text":"院長請聽本席的詢問那您再回答好不好本席只提醒第一我開宗明義講不要雙重標準第二本席也認為說有當代公益之美能夠展演可以展演"},{"start":423.243,"end":431.156,"text":"重點是要經過評估重點是經過我們能夠有一個完整的合理的說法而且對外有教育意義"},{"start":432.557,"end":460.21,"text":"可以嗎?對對對謝謝瑞水委員的指導來那再來基本上來講的話我們會針對這個案子我們召開會議然後請一些專家寫成大家共同來評論好院長那再請教現在我們開放的這個疫情之後開放解禁然後剛剛開始觀光會進來了那很多人也會講是說哇來到台灣故宮一定是一個指標的一個展演之一那現在2024年我們參觀的目標人數定到多少人次"},{"start":461.031,"end":462.022,"text":"而二齡委員．"},{"start":463.294,"end":490.93,"text":"北苑的話,去年的話我們原來希望可以衝破一百萬但去年的話是一百五十五萬就超過我們原來的預估那今年的話我們會以目標兩百五十萬就再增加一百萬為目標那南苑的話是一百萬那增加一百萬兩百五十萬為目標對但是我們全盛時期故宮一年可以到多少的觀光人士全盛時期的話故宮當然最高最高的一年的話有到五百多萬"},{"start":492.311,"end":511.165,"text":"2015年529萬好那今年疫情之前的話是380萬左右是來本席請教今年有沒有看到說交通部我們觀光的人數要衝多少要衝1200萬去年是600然後現在是1200對1200萬嘛對那我們來比較2015年最高的時候故宮可以有529萬對"},{"start":520.043,"end":523.832,"text":"2015年那個時候的觀光人次也不過就是一千萬出頭"},{"start":524.782,"end":549.284,"text":"今年既然觀光局也已經喊了交通部也是說要1200萬人次而大家也認為是說國外的旅客來到台灣其實也很希望說能夠來參觀故宮那故宮是不是應該要更有自信更有雄心壯志既然整個中央觀光局交通部都已經喊出1200萬的觀光人次的話那故宮少說也要收一半的觀光人次吧"},{"start":550.585,"end":567.749,"text":"有沒有這樣的雄心壯志跟委員報告一樣我們當然很期待可是那個入境的人數的話沒有辦法直接轉成那個參觀故宮的人數是沒有錯所以說這才是這是比例推估的問題院長本席要跟你講的是2015年你講說500多萬人次本國級占多少"},{"start":571.803,"end":595.22,"text":"本國籍的話過去的比例的話本國籍的話我現在手上沒有資料沒關係本席直接跟你說我不是要用這個問題考導你我知道大概兩到三成左右來院長本席要告訴你的是委員在這邊質詢都有做功課而且都準備了相關資料比你們備詢都還要準備得完整2015年本國籍是100萬人次"},{"start":596.801,"end":617.155,"text":"外國籍人數有高達420萬人次所以加起來529萬而歷年10年下來我們本國籍的人次都差不多最高是100萬上下換言之故宮在2015年能夠衝到529萬有400多萬都是外國觀光客所以一樣的道理嘛你今年喊出了250萬的人次"},{"start":619.176,"end":648.425,"text":"本席也認為是說你250萬的話你本國籍你要再怎麼推因為他就有一個天花板所以也差不多是100萬人次但是你的外國觀光客怎麼樣可以成長到一倍150萬而更重要的是今天如果說交通部觀光局都已經喊出了今年要喊1200萬人次要進來的話你150萬只有占十分之一耶換言之你故宮已經自我去打折了認為是說1200萬的觀光人次來到台灣只有十分之一的人會來看故宮"},{"start":649.943,"end":674.09,"text":"那不就是跟我們以前的想像是有落差嗎以前大家會認為故宮是台灣的寶我們中華民國的寶各地觀光客來都來看故宮因為故宮是一個很重要的景點之一就如同我們去英國大英博物館我們去法國羅浮宮這個是重要的參考指標觀光指標但我們現在已經自我限縮了所以本席時間到了只是想要提醒院長"},{"start":675.649,"end":702.112,"text":"這些都是數字這些數字都是各部會應該要互相整合院長要做出來啦不是說只是每一個人都會講我們認真努力但重點是有沒有做那本席今天第一次質詢我們之前也都有其他業務都有互相的接觸過我了解你也是要做事的人"},{"start":702.572,"end":717.045,"text":"但最重要的是我點出這個數字只是要告訴您說希望用數字管理希望用目標管理希望您以身作則帶領我們故宮所有的這一些一級主管同仁大家好好努力可以嗎好謝謝委員的勉勵"}]}}}}