{"id":149458,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149458","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbee6bce48e8039eaecaaa95e40c3cff622f8ba9b0039caa7a6eb35d54e917fb2375ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:38:00 - 09:48:53","影片長度":"00:10:53","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-4"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":653,"end_time":"2024-03-07T09:48:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T09:38:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1131,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（9時38分）謝謝主席。部長、各位列席的主管，大家早安，大家好。我想請教部長，現在電信詐騙案猖獗，近年來詐騙案層出不窮，因此政府如何有效打詐成為臺灣民眾非常關注的議題。不論各黨各派的委員，都對政府打詐成效提出許多疑慮，所以本席今天想就此嚴重影響的問題─電信打詐，來跟部長做一個討論。就教一下部長，電信詐騙案逐年暴增，這張圖表是去年法務部在立法院進行專題報告時所提供的數據，我們從這裡面可以看到，新收電信詐騙案件數年年上升，在全國新收案件的占比也不斷往上跳。我想請教部長，這種暴增的情況是不是到目前為止還在持續上升當中？"],["蔡部長清祥：委員好。應該比較和緩了。"],["陳委員俊宇：比較和緩？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們不敢說完全消弭或是狀況都非常良好，但我們確實發揮了打擊詐騙的力道與成果，至少有把它遏止下來。我們採取了很多措施，包括法務部跟金管會、NCC、數位部、內政部，大家一起合作，並在高檢署的督導指揮之下，有產生一些效果。我們從法制面，該修法的，如刑法、洗錢防制法，還有組織犯罪防制法等相關法律，都做了相關修正，也感謝委員的支持。至於執行面，當然，我們還要加倍的努力。"],["陳委員俊宇：看起來是有成效，但其他還有一些細節，像人頭門號的問題。現在有許多詐騙案都是利用申辦漫遊或預付卡等人頭門號來作為犯案工具，當然，這可能在第二類電信業者那邊所占的數量會比較多一點。這讓檢警在偵查時，往往難以查證對方的真實身分，變成辦案的斷點。對於這種大量人頭號碼所產生的詐騙案及難以追查的問題，我想請教部長有沒有什麼因應辦法？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們也是從法制面來修法，對於收購這些人頭帳戶的問題，我們從洗錢防制法及刑法去做規定，也就是人頭帳戶如果沒有正當理由交付帳戶……當然，如果有，那是另外一回事。如果沒有正當理由，第一次採取告誡方式；告誡之後如果再犯，再交付人頭帳戶且無正當理由的話，才處以刑事責任。"],["陳委員俊宇：人頭帳戶與人頭號碼應該沒有很直接的關係吧？"],["蔡部長清祥：人頭帳戶就是給了他的號碼，所以這是有關聯的。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，還是一樣，這部分就是應該要嚴加把關，因為這種問題可能變成查案時的斷點，到那邊查不到了，因為是人頭號碼。至於電信業者是否有責任？我想請教，電信業者應積極協助政府來打詐，部長認為電信業者應該有什麼樣的責任？"],["蔡部長清祥：因為電信法是其他部會的主管業務，如果要處以刑事責任，法務部會提供一些意見，或是在辦案中發現在行政措施上應該有所改善的話，我們也會提供意見給他們。當然，也希望電信業者能配合相關機關，在政府維護社會安全、保障人民財產的政策下，大家共同來努力。"],["陳委員俊宇：由於現有法令管理不足，NCC在去年公布電信事業受理申辦電信服務風險管理機制指引法制化草案，即電信事業用戶號碼使用管理辦法草案，法務部有沒有參與該草案討論的過程？有沒有需要提升這部分的法律位階？"],["蔡部長清祥：主管機關在制定或修正相關法案時，都會邀法務部派人參與，我們會提供法制意見。"],["陳委員俊宇：提供意見而已？"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：我想針對電信詐騙案請教部長，到底電信業者有沒有必要負連帶的賠償責任？"],["蔡部長清祥：如果明知可能會涉及犯罪或不法事情，我們應該課以他相當的責任，不管是行政責任或刑事責任、民事責任，我想業者應該要負起相關的社會責任。"],["陳委員俊宇：以現行電信法規來看，在整個詐騙過程裡，其實電信業者，像第一類並沒有被處罰到。如果有的話，像第二類的罰則好像是20萬到100萬。不過詐騙金額，以我們全臺灣來看，金額非常大！光宜蘭縣在去年一整年，詐騙金額已經超過7億了！以登錄的詐騙案去估算，金額已經超過7億！以電信業者來看，應該他有把關的機制，像現在有一些app的系統也可以幫助電信業者作為相關把關的工具，假設有民眾回復接到的電話疑似是詐騙電話，等累積到一個程度之後，應該電信業者就要主張將這個號碼先停用，請他來做說明。如果電信業者沒有去做，就表示他沒有在做把關，所以我覺得應該是要給電信業者一個連帶責任，他們才會積極的去參與，部長您認為呢？"],["蔡部長清祥：對，我非常贊同委員的見解，尤其對於這些業者來講，他應該要負起社會責任，你如果在把關上嚴格一點，也許會減少一些被詐騙的機會。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。另外一個我想請教部長的問題就是AI輔助的利弊。這是最近熱門的關鍵字，各行各業都在討論AI，近來因為大量的詐騙案，也讓我們司法官的工作堆積如山，難以負荷，為了減輕司法官的案件壓力，不管是在司法院還是法務部，都會提出讓生成式AI來輔助工作的想法。在今年1月份司法節的學術研討中，也討論到多個這種AI應用於司法之中的主題。我想請教部長的就是，當時也有提到，法務部已有二個地檢署在試辦，想請問法務部目前試辦的成效如何？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們可以看到初步有一些成果，可以幫助檢察官處理一些簡易的案子，譬如他們所整理的資料可以讓他們快速的來做判讀，結論也可以做參考，所以我們目前還在試辦當中，我們也隨時在檢討。"],["陳委員俊宇：成效方面，部長您滿意嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：當然還有精進的空間，因為 AI本來就是不斷地在進步，我們也要隨著它進步的腳步，也能夠提升它的效能。"],["陳委員俊宇：雖然是可以減輕我們檢察官或是相關案件在審理的一些繁瑣的簡單工作，可是在這個過程裡面，我們要考慮到資安的問題，會不會在這個過程裡面去洩漏？針對這個部分，部長有沒有什麼防範的辦法？"],["蔡部長清祥：有，我們也邀請一些資訊的專家，提供給我們資安問題的防範措施，所以我們也會特別注意到，我們採取的是以比較穩健的步伐來善用AI這種科技。"],["陳委員俊宇：也希望我們AI系統的推動能夠比較順利，來減輕檢察官以及基層辛苦工作同仁的工作量，也能夠達到實際的效果，可是一定要避免潛在風險，潛在的問題一定要先排除，才能夠保障我們民眾的權益。以上我就拜託部長還有相關部會的各位主管，針對打詐還有相關的問題能夠做更多的努力，全臺灣被詐騙的案件一直層出不窮，我相信案件減少，也能夠讓整個社會秩序更加安穩。謝謝部長。"],["蔡部長清祥：好，謝謝委員的指教。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請蔡易餘委員發言。蔡易餘、蔡易餘委員，委員不在。","接下來請羅智強委員、羅智強委員、羅智強委員。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-4","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","林思銘","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,231 --> 00:00:27,628\n好謝謝主席各位列席的主管各位大家早安大家好部長我想請教一下我們現在電信的這個詐騙案猖獗那在近年來我們這個詐騙的案子層出不窮那政府如何有效來打詐也成為我們台灣民眾非常關注的一個議題\n\n2\n00:00:28,929 --> 00:00:54,344\n那也不論各黨各派的委員也都對於政府打詐的這個成效提出許多的疑慮那本席今天也想就這個嚴重的影響的問題電信打詐來跟我們這個部長做一個討論那我想就教一下就是部長電信案的這個詐騙案逐年的暴增那我們在從這一張圖表\n\n3\n00:00:57,257 --> 00:01:24,295\n這張圖表示我們去年在立法院我們這個法務部進行專題報告時所提供的一個數據那我們從這裡面可以看到新收這個電信詐騙案的這個件數年年的上升占全國新收案件的這個占比也是不斷的往上跳我想請教部長就是這樣的暴增的情況是不是到目前為止還是在持續上升當中\n\n4\n00:01:26,197 --> 00:01:39,592\n應該比較和緩了,我們不敢說完全就消弭或是說已經狀況都非常的良好,但是我們確實也發揮了打擊詐騙的這樣的力道跟成果。\n\n5\n00:01:40,533 --> 00:02:08,815\n至少有把它遏止下來因為我們採取了很多的測試包括法務部跟金管會跟NCC數位部內政部大家一起合作有在高檢署他的督導指揮之下有產生一些效果不但是從法制面該修法的我們從刑法洗錢防治法還有組織犯罪防治法等相關的法律也都做了這個相關的修正也感謝委員的支持\n\n6\n00:02:09,375 --> 00:02:35,030\n那是執行面當然我們還要加倍的努力好那看起來就是有成效了那我希望說其他還有一些細節像人頭門號的問題人頭門號這個在現在已經有許多的這個詐騙案都是利用去申辦漫遊或是這個預付卡等人頭的門號作為犯案的工具當然可能是在第二類的電信業者那邊可能\n\n7\n00:02:35,623 --> 00:02:35,663\n﹚陳俊宇\n\n8\n00:02:57,353 --> 00:02:57,773\n委員會主席\n\n9\n00:03:28,053 --> 00:03:51,484\n交付這種人頭帳戶沒有正當理由的話我們才處以刑事的責任人頭帳戶跟人頭號碼應該是沒有直接的關係吧如果人頭帳戶就是給了他的號碼嘛所以這是有關聯的那還是一樣啦就這部分應該是要去嚴加把關啦因為這種問題可能就是\n\n10\n00:03:52,065 --> 00:03:54,668\n電信業者應該是積極要協助政府來打仗那部長認為我們電信業者應該是什麼樣的責任\n\n11\n00:04:13,494 --> 00:04:31,299\n因為電信法是其他部會的主管業務,如果要處以這個刑事的責任,我們法務部會提供一些意見,或是在我們辦案中發現在行政的措施上應該要有所改善的話,我們也會提供意見給他們。\n\n12\n00:04:32,819 --> 00:04:35,840\n因為現有的這個法令我們在管理的不足情況之下NCC在去年齁\n\n13\n00:04:56,227 --> 00:05:11,790\n有這個公布一個這個電信事業受理申辦電信服務風險管理機制的指引的一個這個法治化的這個草案他是電信事業用戶號碼使用管理辦法的一個草案\n\n14\n00:05:12,571 --> 00:05:33,982\n可是我們法務部有沒有參與這個草案的討論的過程那我們有沒有需要把這個法律的位階來做提升這部分主管機關他在制定或是修正相關的法案的時候都會邀法務部派人去參與我們會提供法制的意見好\n\n15\n00:05:37,028 --> 00:05:51,003\n提供意見而已是部長我想請教一下我們還是針對電信詐騙案的部分我想請教部長就是說到底電信業者有沒有必要去負連帶的賠償責任\n\n16\n00:05:54,346 --> 00:05:56,067\n以現行的這個電信法規來看他在整個詐騙的過程裡面其實電信業者\n\n17\n00:06:22,423 --> 00:06:43,385\n像第一類他是沒有被處罰到啦如果有的話法則他第二類好像是20萬到100萬可是詐騙的這種金額在我們全台灣來看金額是非常大你就宜蘭縣在去年一整年詐騙金額已經超過7億\n\n18\n00:06:45,353 --> 00:07:04,509\n有登錄的這些詐騙案去估算金額已經超過7億所以我主張就是說因為以電信業者來看應該他有把關的這種機制我們像現在有一些那個APP的系統他也可以幫助我們電信業者來做這個相關的把關的工具\n\n19\n00:07:05,390 --> 00:07:15,381\n那假設說有民眾回覆說這個接到的電話這個是疑似詐騙電話那累計到一個程度之後應該電信業者就要主張將這個號碼先停用請他來做說明\n\n20\n00:07:20,011 --> 00:07:47,163\n那如果電信業者沒有去做這個就表示他沒有在做把關了嘛所以我覺得說應該是要給電信業者有一個連帶這個責任他們才會積極的去參與部長您認為對我非常贊同委員的見解那尤其對於這些業者來講他應該要負起社會責任的你如果在把關上嚴格一點也許會減少一些被詐騙的機會對是\n\n21\n00:07:49,824 --> 00:08:02,715\n好那另外一個問題我想請教這個部長就是我們現在這個輔助AI輔助的這個利弊AI輔助的部分那因為\n\n22\n00:08:03,669 --> 00:08:25,672\n最近熱門的關鍵字在各行各業都在討論這個AI那近來因為我們大量的這個詐騙案也讓我們司法官的工作堆積如山那難以符合為了減輕我們司法官的案件壓力不管是在司法院還是法務部都會提出讓深層式的這種AI來輔助工作想法\n\n23\n00:08:26,243 --> 00:08:45,282\n那在今年的1月份司法節的學術研討中也討論到多個這種AI應用與司法之中的主題當中我想請教部長就是當時也有提到法務部已有兩個地檢署在試辦那想請問一下法務部目前試辦的成效如何\n\n24\n00:08:46,936 --> 00:08:59,587\n我們可以看到初步有一些成果可以幫助檢察官處理一些檢疫的案子譬如他們所整理的資料可以讓他們快速的來做判讀\n\n25\n00:09:00,458 --> 00:09:22,817\n那結論也可以做參考,所以我們目前還在示範當中,我們有隨時在檢討。那成效是部長您滿意嗎?當然還有精進的空間,因為AI它本來就是不斷的在進步,我們也要隨著它的進步的腳步,也能夠提升它的效能。\n\n26\n00:09:23,638 --> 00:09:39,325\n好雖然是可以減輕我們這個檢察官或是相關這個案件在審理的一些反鎖的一個簡單的工作可是在這個過程裡面我們要考慮到就是資安的問題資安的問題會不會因為在這個過程裡面會去\n\n27\n00:09:44,665 --> 00:10:03,832\n這部分部長我們有沒有什麼防範的辦法?有,我們也邀請一些資訊的專家還有給我們提供治安問題的防範的措施所以我們會特別注意到所以我們採取是個比較穩健的步伐來善用這個AI這種科技\n\n28\n00:10:04,574 --> 00:10:20,102\n好那也希望說我們這個AI系統的推動能夠比較順利來減輕我們檢察官還是這個基層的這些我們辛苦的這個工作同仁的這個工作量那也能夠達到實際的效果可是一定要這個\n\n29\n00:10:21,203 --> 00:10:21,603\n臺灣被詐騙的案件一直層出不窮\n\n30\n00:10:45,094 --> 00:10:45,134\n主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3231\t27628\t好 謝謝主席 各位列席的主管 各位大家早安 大家好部長我想請教一下 我們現在電信的這個詐騙案猖獗那在近年來我們這個詐騙的案子層出不窮那政府如何有效來打詐也成為我們台灣民眾非常關注的一個議題\n28929\t54344\t那也不論各黨各派的委員也都對於政府打詐的這個成效提出許多的疑慮那本席今天也想就這個嚴重的影響的問題電信打詐來跟我們這個部長做一個討論那我想就教一下就是部長電信案的這個詐騙案逐年的暴增那我們在從這一張圖表\n57257\t84295\t這張圖表示我們去年在立法院我們這個法務部進行專題報告時所提供的一個數據那我們從這裡面可以看到新收這個電信詐騙案的這個件數年年的上升占全國新收案件的這個占比也是不斷的往上跳我想請教部長就是這樣的暴增的情況是不是到目前為止還是在持續上升當中\n86197\t99592\t應該比較和緩了,我們不敢說完全就消弭或是說已經狀況都非常的良好,但是我們確實也發揮了打擊詐騙的這樣的力道跟成果。\n100533\t128815\t至少有把它遏止下來因為我們採取了很多的測試包括法務部跟金管會跟NCC數位部內政部大家一起合作有在高檢署他的督導指揮之下有產生一些效果不但是從法制面該修法的我們從刑法洗錢防治法還有組織犯罪防治法等相關的法律也都做了這個相關的修正也感謝委員的支持\n129375\t155030\t那是執行面當然我們還要加倍的努力好那看起來就是有成效了那我希望說其他還有一些細節像人頭門號的問題人頭門號這個在現在已經有許多的這個詐騙案都是利用去申辦漫遊或是這個預付卡等人頭的門號作為犯案的工具當然可能是在第二類的電信業者那邊可能\n155623\t155663\t﹚陳俊宇\n177353\t177773\t委員會主席\n208053\t231484\t交付這種人頭帳戶沒有正當理由的話我們才處以刑事的責任人頭帳戶跟人頭號碼應該是沒有直接的關係吧如果人頭帳戶就是給了他的號碼嘛所以這是有關聯的那還是一樣啦就這部分應該是要去嚴加把關啦因為這種問題可能就是\n232065\t234668\t電信業者應該是積極要協助政府來打仗那部長認為我們電信業者應該是什麼樣的責任\n253494\t271299\t因為電信法是其他部會的主管業務,如果要處以這個刑事的責任,我們法務部會提供一些意見,或是在我們辦案中發現在行政的措施上應該要有所改善的話,我們也會提供意見給他們。\n272819\t275840\t因為現有的這個法令我們在管理的不足情況之下NCC在去年齁\n296227\t311790\t有這個公布一個這個電信事業受理申辦電信服務風險管理機制的指引的一個這個法治化的這個草案他是電信事業用戶號碼使用管理辦法的一個草案\n312571\t333982\t可是我們法務部有沒有參與這個草案的討論的過程那我們有沒有需要把這個法律的位階來做提升這部分主管機關他在制定或是修正相關的法案的時候都會邀法務部派人去參與我們會提供法制的意見好\n337028\t351003\t提供意見而已是部長我想請教一下我們還是針對電信詐騙案的部分我想請教部長就是說到底電信業者有沒有必要去負連帶的賠償責任\n354346\t356067\t以現行的這個電信法規來看他在整個詐騙的過程裡面其實電信業者\n382423\t403385\t像第一類他是沒有被處罰到啦如果有的話法則他第二類好像是20萬到100萬可是詐騙的這種金額在我們全台灣來看金額是非常大你就宜蘭縣在去年一整年詐騙金額已經超過7億\n405353\t424509\t有登錄的這些詐騙案去估算金額已經超過7億所以我主張就是說因為以電信業者來看應該他有把關的這種機制我們像現在有一些那個APP的系統他也可以幫助我們電信業者來做這個相關的把關的工具\n425390\t435381\t那假設說有民眾回覆說這個接到的電話這個是疑似詐騙電話那累計到一個程度之後應該電信業者就要主張將這個號碼先停用請他來做說明\n440011\t467163\t那如果電信業者沒有去做這個就表示他沒有在做把關了嘛所以我覺得說應該是要給電信業者有一個連帶這個責任他們才會積極的去參與部長您認為對我非常贊同委員的見解那尤其對於這些業者來講他應該要負起社會責任的你如果在把關上嚴格一點也許會減少一些被詐騙的機會對是\n469824\t482715\t好那另外一個問題我想請教這個部長就是我們現在這個輔助AI輔助的這個利弊AI輔助的部分那因為\n483669\t505672\t最近熱門的關鍵字在各行各業都在討論這個AI那近來因為我們大量的這個詐騙案也讓我們司法官的工作堆積如山那難以符合為了減輕我們司法官的案件壓力不管是在司法院還是法務部都會提出讓深層式的這種AI來輔助工作想法\n506243\t525282\t那在今年的1月份司法節的學術研討中也討論到多個這種AI應用與司法之中的主題當中我想請教部長就是當時也有提到法務部已有兩個地檢署在試辦那想請問一下法務部目前試辦的成效如何\n526936\t539587\t我們可以看到初步有一些成果可以幫助檢察官處理一些檢疫的案子譬如他們所整理的資料可以讓他們快速的來做判讀\n540458\t562817\t那結論也可以做參考,所以我們目前還在示範當中,我們有隨時在檢討。那成效是部長您滿意嗎?當然還有精進的空間,因為AI它本來就是不斷的在進步,我們也要隨著它的進步的腳步,也能夠提升它的效能。\n563638\t579325\t好雖然是可以減輕我們這個檢察官或是相關這個案件在審理的一些反鎖的一個簡單的工作可是在這個過程裡面我們要考慮到就是資安的問題資安的問題會不會因為在這個過程裡面會去\n584665\t603832\t這部分部長我們有沒有什麼防範的辦法?有,我們也邀請一些資訊的專家還有給我們提供治安問題的防範的措施所以我們會特別注意到所以我們採取是個比較穩健的步伐來善用這個AI這種科技\n604574\t620102\t好那也希望說我們這個AI系統的推動能夠比較順利來減輕我們檢察官還是這個基層的這些我們辛苦的這個工作同仁的這個工作量那也能夠達到實際的效果可是一定要這個\n621203\t621603\t臺灣被詐騙的案件一直層出不窮\n645094\t645134\t主席\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 各位列席的主管 各位大家早安 大家好部長我想請教一下 我們現在電信的這個詐騙案猖獗那在近年來我們這個詐騙的案子層出不窮那政府如何有效來打詐也成為我們台灣民眾非常關注的一個議題\n那也不論各黨各派的委員也都對於政府打詐的這個成效提出許多的疑慮那本席今天也想就這個嚴重的影響的問題電信打詐來跟我們這個部長做一個討論那我想就教一下就是部長電信案的這個詐騙案逐年的暴增那我們在從這一張圖表\n這張圖表示我們去年在立法院我們這個法務部進行專題報告時所提供的一個數據那我們從這裡面可以看到新收這個電信詐騙案的這個件數年年的上升占全國新收案件的這個占比也是不斷的往上跳我想請教部長就是這樣的暴增的情況是不是到目前為止還是在持續上升當中\n應該比較和緩了,我們不敢說完全就消弭或是說已經狀況都非常的良好,但是我們確實也發揮了打擊詐騙的這樣的力道跟成果。\n至少有把它遏止下來因為我們採取了很多的測試包括法務部跟金管會跟NCC數位部內政部大家一起合作有在高檢署他的督導指揮之下有產生一些效果不但是從法制面該修法的我們從刑法洗錢防治法還有組織犯罪防治法等相關的法律也都做了這個相關的修正也感謝委員的支持\n那是執行面當然我們還要加倍的努力好那看起來就是有成效了那我希望說其他還有一些細節像人頭門號的問題人頭門號這個在現在已經有許多的這個詐騙案都是利用去申辦漫遊或是這個預付卡等人頭的門號作為犯案的工具當然可能是在第二類的電信業者那邊可能\n﹚陳俊宇\n委員會主席\n交付這種人頭帳戶沒有正當理由的話我們才處以刑事的責任人頭帳戶跟人頭號碼應該是沒有直接的關係吧如果人頭帳戶就是給了他的號碼嘛所以這是有關聯的那還是一樣啦就這部分應該是要去嚴加把關啦因為這種問題可能就是\n電信業者應該是積極要協助政府來打仗那部長認為我們電信業者應該是什麼樣的責任\n因為電信法是其他部會的主管業務,如果要處以這個刑事的責任,我們法務部會提供一些意見,或是在我們辦案中發現在行政的措施上應該要有所改善的話,我們也會提供意見給他們。\n因為現有的這個法令我們在管理的不足情況之下NCC在去年齁\n有這個公布一個這個電信事業受理申辦電信服務風險管理機制的指引的一個這個法治化的這個草案他是電信事業用戶號碼使用管理辦法的一個草案\n可是我們法務部有沒有參與這個草案的討論的過程那我們有沒有需要把這個法律的位階來做提升這部分主管機關他在制定或是修正相關的法案的時候都會邀法務部派人去參與我們會提供法制的意見好\n提供意見而已是部長我想請教一下我們還是針對電信詐騙案的部分我想請教部長就是說到底電信業者有沒有必要去負連帶的賠償責任\n以現行的這個電信法規來看他在整個詐騙的過程裡面其實電信業者\n像第一類他是沒有被處罰到啦如果有的話法則他第二類好像是20萬到100萬可是詐騙的這種金額在我們全台灣來看金額是非常大你就宜蘭縣在去年一整年詐騙金額已經超過7億\n有登錄的這些詐騙案去估算金額已經超過7億所以我主張就是說因為以電信業者來看應該他有把關的這種機制我們像現在有一些那個APP的系統他也可以幫助我們電信業者來做這個相關的把關的工具\n那假設說有民眾回覆說這個接到的電話這個是疑似詐騙電話那累計到一個程度之後應該電信業者就要主張將這個號碼先停用請他來做說明\n那如果電信業者沒有去做這個就表示他沒有在做把關了嘛所以我覺得說應該是要給電信業者有一個連帶這個責任他們才會積極的去參與部長您認為對我非常贊同委員的見解那尤其對於這些業者來講他應該要負起社會責任的你如果在把關上嚴格一點也許會減少一些被詐騙的機會對是\n好那另外一個問題我想請教這個部長就是我們現在這個輔助AI輔助的這個利弊AI輔助的部分那因為\n最近熱門的關鍵字在各行各業都在討論這個AI那近來因為我們大量的這個詐騙案也讓我們司法官的工作堆積如山那難以符合為了減輕我們司法官的案件壓力不管是在司法院還是法務部都會提出讓深層式的這種AI來輔助工作想法\n那在今年的1月份司法節的學術研討中也討論到多個這種AI應用與司法之中的主題當中我想請教部長就是當時也有提到法務部已有兩個地檢署在試辦那想請問一下法務部目前試辦的成效如何\n我們可以看到初步有一些成果可以幫助檢察官處理一些檢疫的案子譬如他們所整理的資料可以讓他們快速的來做判讀\n那結論也可以做參考,所以我們目前還在示範當中,我們有隨時在檢討。那成效是部長您滿意嗎?當然還有精進的空間,因為AI它本來就是不斷的在進步,我們也要隨著它的進步的腳步,也能夠提升它的效能。\n好雖然是可以減輕我們這個檢察官或是相關這個案件在審理的一些反鎖的一個簡單的工作可是在這個過程裡面我們要考慮到就是資安的問題資安的問題會不會因為在這個過程裡面會去\n這部分部長我們有沒有什麼防範的辦法?有,我們也邀請一些資訊的專家還有給我們提供治安問題的防範的措施所以我們會特別注意到所以我們採取是個比較穩健的步伐來善用這個AI這種科技\n好那也希望說我們這個AI系統的推動能夠比較順利來減輕我們檢察官還是這個基層的這些我們辛苦的這個工作同仁的這個工作量那也能夠達到實際的效果可是一定要這個\n臺灣被詐騙的案件一直層出不窮\n主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.231 --> 00:27.628\n好謝謝主席各位列席的主管各位大家早安大家好部長我想請教一下我們現在電信的這個詐騙案猖獗那在近年來我們這個詐騙的案子層出不窮那政府如何有效來打詐也成為我們台灣民眾非常關注的一個議題\n\n00:28.929 --> 00:54.344\n那也不論各黨各派的委員也都對於政府打詐的這個成效提出許多的疑慮那本席今天也想就這個嚴重的影響的問題電信打詐來跟我們這個部長做一個討論那我想就教一下就是部長電信案的這個詐騙案逐年的暴增那我們在從這一張圖表\n\n00:57.257 --> 01:24.295\n這張圖表示我們去年在立法院我們這個法務部進行專題報告時所提供的一個數據那我們從這裡面可以看到新收這個電信詐騙案的這個件數年年的上升占全國新收案件的這個占比也是不斷的往上跳我想請教部長就是這樣的暴增的情況是不是到目前為止還是在持續上升當中\n\n01:26.197 --> 01:39.592\n應該比較和緩了,我們不敢說完全就消弭或是說已經狀況都非常的良好,但是我們確實也發揮了打擊詐騙的這樣的力道跟成果。\n\n01:40.533 --> 02:08.815\n至少有把它遏止下來因為我們採取了很多的測試包括法務部跟金管會跟NCC數位部內政部大家一起合作有在高檢署他的督導指揮之下有產生一些效果不但是從法制面該修法的我們從刑法洗錢防治法還有組織犯罪防治法等相關的法律也都做了這個相關的修正也感謝委員的支持\n\n02:09.375 --> 02:35.030\n那是執行面當然我們還要加倍的努力好那看起來就是有成效了那我希望說其他還有一些細節像人頭門號的問題人頭門號這個在現在已經有許多的這個詐騙案都是利用去申辦漫遊或是這個預付卡等人頭的門號作為犯案的工具當然可能是在第二類的電信業者那邊可能\n\n02:35.623 --> 02:35.663\n﹚陳俊宇\n\n02:57.353 --> 02:57.773\n委員會主席\n\n03:28.053 --> 03:51.484\n交付這種人頭帳戶沒有正當理由的話我們才處以刑事的責任人頭帳戶跟人頭號碼應該是沒有直接的關係吧如果人頭帳戶就是給了他的號碼嘛所以這是有關聯的那還是一樣啦就這部分應該是要去嚴加把關啦因為這種問題可能就是\n\n03:52.065 --> 03:54.668\n電信業者應該是積極要協助政府來打仗那部長認為我們電信業者應該是什麼樣的責任\n\n04:13.494 --> 04:31.299\n因為電信法是其他部會的主管業務,如果要處以這個刑事的責任,我們法務部會提供一些意見,或是在我們辦案中發現在行政的措施上應該要有所改善的話,我們也會提供意見給他們。\n\n04:32.819 --> 04:35.840\n因為現有的這個法令我們在管理的不足情況之下NCC在去年齁\n\n04:56.227 --> 05:11.790\n有這個公布一個這個電信事業受理申辦電信服務風險管理機制的指引的一個這個法治化的這個草案他是電信事業用戶號碼使用管理辦法的一個草案\n\n05:12.571 --> 05:33.982\n可是我們法務部有沒有參與這個草案的討論的過程那我們有沒有需要把這個法律的位階來做提升這部分主管機關他在制定或是修正相關的法案的時候都會邀法務部派人去參與我們會提供法制的意見好\n\n05:37.028 --> 05:51.003\n提供意見而已是部長我想請教一下我們還是針對電信詐騙案的部分我想請教部長就是說到底電信業者有沒有必要去負連帶的賠償責任\n\n05:54.346 --> 05:56.067\n以現行的這個電信法規來看他在整個詐騙的過程裡面其實電信業者\n\n06:22.423 --> 06:43.385\n像第一類他是沒有被處罰到啦如果有的話法則他第二類好像是20萬到100萬可是詐騙的這種金額在我們全台灣來看金額是非常大你就宜蘭縣在去年一整年詐騙金額已經超過7億\n\n06:45.353 --> 07:04.509\n有登錄的這些詐騙案去估算金額已經超過7億所以我主張就是說因為以電信業者來看應該他有把關的這種機制我們像現在有一些那個APP的系統他也可以幫助我們電信業者來做這個相關的把關的工具\n\n07:05.390 --> 07:15.381\n那假設說有民眾回覆說這個接到的電話這個是疑似詐騙電話那累計到一個程度之後應該電信業者就要主張將這個號碼先停用請他來做說明\n\n07:20.011 --> 07:47.163\n那如果電信業者沒有去做這個就表示他沒有在做把關了嘛所以我覺得說應該是要給電信業者有一個連帶這個責任他們才會積極的去參與部長您認為對我非常贊同委員的見解那尤其對於這些業者來講他應該要負起社會責任的你如果在把關上嚴格一點也許會減少一些被詐騙的機會對是\n\n07:49.824 --> 08:02.715\n好那另外一個問題我想請教這個部長就是我們現在這個輔助AI輔助的這個利弊AI輔助的部分那因為\n\n08:03.669 --> 08:25.672\n最近熱門的關鍵字在各行各業都在討論這個AI那近來因為我們大量的這個詐騙案也讓我們司法官的工作堆積如山那難以符合為了減輕我們司法官的案件壓力不管是在司法院還是法務部都會提出讓深層式的這種AI來輔助工作想法\n\n08:26.243 --> 08:45.282\n那在今年的1月份司法節的學術研討中也討論到多個這種AI應用與司法之中的主題當中我想請教部長就是當時也有提到法務部已有兩個地檢署在試辦那想請問一下法務部目前試辦的成效如何\n\n08:46.936 --> 08:59.587\n我們可以看到初步有一些成果可以幫助檢察官處理一些檢疫的案子譬如他們所整理的資料可以讓他們快速的來做判讀\n\n09:00.458 --> 09:22.817\n那結論也可以做參考,所以我們目前還在示範當中,我們有隨時在檢討。那成效是部長您滿意嗎?當然還有精進的空間,因為AI它本來就是不斷的在進步,我們也要隨著它的進步的腳步,也能夠提升它的效能。\n\n09:23.638 --> 09:39.325\n好雖然是可以減輕我們這個檢察官或是相關這個案件在審理的一些反鎖的一個簡單的工作可是在這個過程裡面我們要考慮到就是資安的問題資安的問題會不會因為在這個過程裡面會去\n\n09:44.665 --> 10:03.832\n這部分部長我們有沒有什麼防範的辦法?有,我們也邀請一些資訊的專家還有給我們提供治安問題的防範的措施所以我們會特別注意到所以我們採取是個比較穩健的步伐來善用這個AI這種科技\n\n10:04.574 --> 10:20.102\n好那也希望說我們這個AI系統的推動能夠比較順利來減輕我們檢察官還是這個基層的這些我們辛苦的這個工作同仁的這個工作量那也能夠達到實際的效果可是一定要這個\n\n10:21.203 --> 10:21.603\n臺灣被詐騙的案件一直層出不窮\n\n10:45.094 --> 10:45.134\n主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.231,"end":27.628,"text":"好 謝謝主席 各位列席的主管 各位大家早安 大家好部長我想請教一下 我們現在電信的這個詐騙案猖獗那在近年來我們這個詐騙的案子層出不窮那政府如何有效來打詐也成為我們台灣民眾非常關注的一個議題"},{"start":28.929,"end":54.344,"text":"那也不論各黨各派的委員也都對於政府打詐的這個成效提出許多的疑慮那本席今天也想就這個嚴重的影響的問題電信打詐來跟我們這個部長做一個討論那我想就教一下就是部長電信案的這個詐騙案逐年的暴增那我們在從這一張圖表"},{"start":57.257,"end":84.295,"text":"這張圖表示我們去年在立法院我們這個法務部進行專題報告時所提供的一個數據那我們從這裡面可以看到新收這個電信詐騙案的這個件數年年的上升占全國新收案件的這個占比也是不斷的往上跳我想請教部長就是這樣的暴增的情況是不是到目前為止還是在持續上升當中"},{"start":86.197,"end":99.592,"text":"應該比較和緩了,我們不敢說完全就消弭或是說已經狀況都非常的良好,但是我們確實也發揮了打擊詐騙的這樣的力道跟成果。"},{"start":100.533,"end":128.815,"text":"至少有把它遏止下來因為我們採取了很多的測試包括法務部跟金管會跟NCC數位部內政部大家一起合作有在高檢署他的督導指揮之下有產生一些效果不但是從法制面該修法的我們從刑法洗錢防治法還有組織犯罪防治法等相關的法律也都做了這個相關的修正也感謝委員的支持"},{"start":129.375,"end":155.03,"text":"那是執行面當然我們還要加倍的努力好那看起來就是有成效了那我希望說其他還有一些細節像人頭門號的問題人頭門號這個在現在已經有許多的這個詐騙案都是利用去申辦漫遊或是這個預付卡等人頭的門號作為犯案的工具當然可能是在第二類的電信業者那邊可能"},{"start":155.623,"end":155.663,"text":"﹚陳俊宇"},{"start":177.353,"end":177.773,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":208.053,"end":231.484,"text":"交付這種人頭帳戶沒有正當理由的話我們才處以刑事的責任人頭帳戶跟人頭號碼應該是沒有直接的關係吧如果人頭帳戶就是給了他的號碼嘛所以這是有關聯的那還是一樣啦就這部分應該是要去嚴加把關啦因為這種問題可能就是"},{"start":232.065,"end":234.668,"text":"電信業者應該是積極要協助政府來打仗那部長認為我們電信業者應該是什麼樣的責任"},{"start":253.494,"end":271.299,"text":"因為電信法是其他部會的主管業務,如果要處以這個刑事的責任,我們法務部會提供一些意見,或是在我們辦案中發現在行政的措施上應該要有所改善的話,我們也會提供意見給他們。"},{"start":272.819,"end":275.84,"text":"因為現有的這個法令我們在管理的不足情況之下NCC在去年齁"},{"start":296.227,"end":311.79,"text":"有這個公布一個這個電信事業受理申辦電信服務風險管理機制的指引的一個這個法治化的這個草案他是電信事業用戶號碼使用管理辦法的一個草案"},{"start":312.571,"end":333.982,"text":"可是我們法務部有沒有參與這個草案的討論的過程那我們有沒有需要把這個法律的位階來做提升這部分主管機關他在制定或是修正相關的法案的時候都會邀法務部派人去參與我們會提供法制的意見好"},{"start":337.028,"end":351.003,"text":"提供意見而已是部長我想請教一下我們還是針對電信詐騙案的部分我想請教部長就是說到底電信業者有沒有必要去負連帶的賠償責任"},{"start":354.346,"end":356.067,"text":"以現行的這個電信法規來看他在整個詐騙的過程裡面其實電信業者"},{"start":382.423,"end":403.385,"text":"像第一類他是沒有被處罰到啦如果有的話法則他第二類好像是20萬到100萬可是詐騙的這種金額在我們全台灣來看金額是非常大你就宜蘭縣在去年一整年詐騙金額已經超過7億"},{"start":405.353,"end":424.509,"text":"有登錄的這些詐騙案去估算金額已經超過7億所以我主張就是說因為以電信業者來看應該他有把關的這種機制我們像現在有一些那個APP的系統他也可以幫助我們電信業者來做這個相關的把關的工具"},{"start":425.39,"end":435.381,"text":"那假設說有民眾回覆說這個接到的電話這個是疑似詐騙電話那累計到一個程度之後應該電信業者就要主張將這個號碼先停用請他來做說明"},{"start":440.011,"end":467.163,"text":"那如果電信業者沒有去做這個就表示他沒有在做把關了嘛所以我覺得說應該是要給電信業者有一個連帶這個責任他們才會積極的去參與部長您認為對我非常贊同委員的見解那尤其對於這些業者來講他應該要負起社會責任的你如果在把關上嚴格一點也許會減少一些被詐騙的機會對是"},{"start":469.824,"end":482.715,"text":"好那另外一個問題我想請教這個部長就是我們現在這個輔助AI輔助的這個利弊AI輔助的部分那因為"},{"start":483.669,"end":505.672,"text":"最近熱門的關鍵字在各行各業都在討論這個AI那近來因為我們大量的這個詐騙案也讓我們司法官的工作堆積如山那難以符合為了減輕我們司法官的案件壓力不管是在司法院還是法務部都會提出讓深層式的這種AI來輔助工作想法"},{"start":506.243,"end":525.282,"text":"那在今年的1月份司法節的學術研討中也討論到多個這種AI應用與司法之中的主題當中我想請教部長就是當時也有提到法務部已有兩個地檢署在試辦那想請問一下法務部目前試辦的成效如何"},{"start":526.936,"end":539.587,"text":"我們可以看到初步有一些成果可以幫助檢察官處理一些檢疫的案子譬如他們所整理的資料可以讓他們快速的來做判讀"},{"start":540.458,"end":562.817,"text":"那結論也可以做參考,所以我們目前還在示範當中,我們有隨時在檢討。那成效是部長您滿意嗎?當然還有精進的空間,因為AI它本來就是不斷的在進步,我們也要隨著它的進步的腳步,也能夠提升它的效能。"},{"start":563.638,"end":579.325,"text":"好雖然是可以減輕我們這個檢察官或是相關這個案件在審理的一些反鎖的一個簡單的工作可是在這個過程裡面我們要考慮到就是資安的問題資安的問題會不會因為在這個過程裡面會去"},{"start":584.665,"end":603.832,"text":"這部分部長我們有沒有什麼防範的辦法?有,我們也邀請一些資訊的專家還有給我們提供治安問題的防範的措施所以我們會特別注意到所以我們採取是個比較穩健的步伐來善用這個AI這種科技"},{"start":604.574,"end":620.102,"text":"好那也希望說我們這個AI系統的推動能夠比較順利來減輕我們檢察官還是這個基層的這些我們辛苦的這個工作同仁的這個工作量那也能夠達到實際的效果可是一定要這個"},{"start":621.203,"end":621.603,"text":"臺灣被詐騙的案件一直層出不窮"},{"start":645.094,"end":645.134,"text":"主席"}]}}}}