{"id":149461,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149461","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe9932fd19721a246752afbb2d65d0dae1f8ba9b0039caa7a60ca9a1ea8bb929be5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"09:41:04 - 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{\"start\": 80.034, \"end\": 92.908, \"text\": \"那我想知道的事情就是因為現在金門海域產生了一些衝突那我們當然也知道這個是下禮拜我們才會有一些更詳細的專報那這樣在部長的一個判斷裡面現在是不是一個灰色地帶作戰的一個情形呢\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 80.034, \"end\": 80.234, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 80.234, \"end\": 80.334, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 80.334, \"end\": 80.535, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 80.535, \"end\": 80.675, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 80.675, \"end\": 80.795, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 80.795, \"end\": 80.895, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 80.895, \"end\": 81.015, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 81.015, \"end\": 81.155, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 81.155, \"end\": 81.315, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 81.315, \"end\": 81.456, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 81.456, \"end\": 81.816, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": 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00:00:32,786\n沈伯洋好部長你好那我今天最主要是想要問這個關於灰色地帶作戰的一個因處那第一件事情就是說的確就是說我們在這個過往的一些文獻還有國防部的一些說法裡面不斷的提到這個灰色地帶作戰那這一次在業務報告裡面也看到就是說灰色地帶作戰為了因應\n\n3\n00:00:33,667 --> 00:00:34,328\n國防部提出灰色地帶作戰\n\n4\n00:00:49,588 --> 00:01:18,267\n我跟委員報告,從有這個灰帶的問題以後,我們大概每天在戰報當中或者記錄當中都有這些記載。我跟委員報告,我們這個指揮中心它成立,裡面有各連參,針對敵情的、針對海上的、飛彈的,甚至於國內各部隊一個狀況掌握,這是我們本務工作之一。所以我們有這個數量,假如委員要知道的話,我們可以提供或者到委員那邊去當面做說明,這樣的話比較詳盡一點。\n\n5\n00:01:20,034 --> 00:01:32,908\n那我想知道的事情就是因為現在金門海域產生了一些衝突那我們當然也知道這個是下禮拜我們才會有一些更詳細的專報那這樣在部長的一個判斷裡面現在是不是一個灰色地帶作戰的一個情形呢\n\n6\n00:01:33,376 --> 00:02:00,833\n我覺得灰色地帶不光是地帶,包含事件也是如此,這也有灰色物理兩可,像中線的問題或境線之水域,對方可以講從來沒有契約,或者的確有很多事情當初推動,並沒有契約,並沒有想雙方來簽訂,但多年行之有年的默契,也可以把我們很多不必要發生而且\n\n7\n00:02:01,753 --> 00:02:25,139\n甚至於擦槍走火這些不可抗拒的問題把它給縮減我想這片面的做法它有它的講法但我們的作為不會變更持續保持監控對海型的一個資源相互協調交換情資這是我們本務工作會持續來做的\n\n8\n00:02:26,460 --> 00:02:46,355\n剛剛有提到破壞現狀這件事情就是說不管是禁止或者限制的這個水域又或者說他們對海峽中線的破壞那對於來講我們的譬如說我們有沒有這樣的一個準則認為說當他們單方面的破壞現狀的情形就已經認為它是一個灰色地帶作戰然後進而我們必須要有更多的應變措施\n\n9\n00:02:47,296 --> 00:03:08,666\n首跟委員簡單報告,我們國軍分成平時跟戰時的作為,平時裡面我們有分,有突發狀況、偶發事件的處理,跟一個危機處理,包含天然災害,平常我們怎麼應變。像這種灰色地帶,它介於平時跟戰時之間,所以我們一有這種狀況以後,我們會把它給記錄下來,當作一個狀況。\n\n10\n00:03:12,688 --> 00:03:39,033\n所以平常我們是依據國軍的突發狀況處事規定來做一個我們對部隊的要求應對這些狀況多了以後我們應對的方法也不但在經濟所以為什麼會有各種的兵推包含漢光包含我們各鑽區甚至於海空軍他們有他們的兵推就針對可能發生狀況來做演練我想這也就應處灰色地帶\n\n11\n00:03:39,853 --> 00:03:57,632\n讓他避免發生衝突的作為很具體的作為謝謝部長那我知道這個所謂突發狀況的這個應變他的內容應該是世俗機密但是對於就是說有沒有一個更高的指導原則因為譬如說像我在這邊列的像在早期這個國軍資訊戰的這個藥缸那我記得陸軍跟空軍後來也有提出相關的一些細則\n\n12\n00:04:02,037 --> 00:04:21,718\n我們政治作戰也有政治作戰的藥缸那藥缸本身它並不會是機密那我們對於灰色地帶這件事情有沒有類似的doctrine就準則或者提出這樣的一個藥缸讓我們國人能夠更清楚的判斷現在是不是一個灰色地帶作戰沈國光委員講的像這些藥缸並不是機密但它裡面講的一個原理原則一個應屬的方法\n\n13\n00:04:24,841 --> 00:04:50,490\n事實上國軍為了要防止這些突發狀況避免它到最後擴大變一個全面性的一個衝突的話我們對各種狀況都只有設定設定以後但也是依據藥鋼裡面它的原則來辦理我講最簡單一個我們為什麼有這個我們備戰不求戰我們應戰但不必戰它就是為了這個大原則\n\n14\n00:04:51,750 --> 00:04:54,273\n部長我之所以問這個藥缸很大的一個原因也是像剛剛提到的\n\n15\n00:05:09,833 --> 00:05:33,776\n譬如說這個部長有時候會提到,譬如說我們這個是,我們可能是,我們不要,我們要避戰,這個,或者是我們不要去主動的挑起戰爭,我們不要挑釁。但現在呢,以中國在譬如說中南海的一個形勢,他們的作為,因為他不斷的步步進逼,所以有時候當我們提出這個所謂的避戰的態度的時候,他反而會覺得非常的喜悅,因為他會覺得說,那我又可以再往前更進一步。\n\n16\n00:05:34,196 --> 00:05:56,003\n那我並不是說這是對或者錯的問題,而是說,如果我們有一個更高的指導原則,或者藥鋼等等之類的,讓我們知道說,譬如說我們今天在應處方面我們的組織形態是什麼。像我們剛剛講跟海巡他之間的協作這個是什麼。因為畢竟這個部長之前應該都有提到,海巡的事當然是海巡管嘛,那國防部有自己國防部必須要管轄的一個地方。\n\n17\n00:05:56,463 --> 00:06:12,415\n但是像現在海巡已經面臨了這個法律戰跟輿論戰第一線的弟兄的法律框架已經被框架住了然後甚至害怕被起訴然後因為這樣士氣低落然後不敢提出任何的要求也因此海巡現在執法的能量已經掉下來\n\n18\n00:06:13,075 --> 00:06:32,267\n那在掉下來的一個狀況之下本來海巡跟這個海軍他本來是有一個分界什麼時候是海巡做什麼時候是海軍做但如果今天在我們的藥缸裡面有沒有把這件事情納入到考量就是讓海巡的能量已經掉下來了海巡已經被限制住了那這時候國軍有沒有相對應不同的行動出現\n\n19\n00:06:32,898 --> 00:06:49,828\n我跟委員報告,剛剛委員講的沒有錯,我們就怕人家誤會,我們應戰不必戰,跟我們避免戰爭這兩回事。所以我們為什麼國防部一開始就有動作,把第一級的要件改過來,改得更明確。\n\n20\n00:06:50,828 --> 00:07:09,365\n因為以往認為第一集一定是對方開炮、開槍了,我們才有第一集。我們已經早就改了,所以第一集的界定,它只要有一個實體,不管是航空或者海航,一個實體,預約的規矩了,我們說第一集是一樣的,就把它當作我們一個反制。\n\n21\n00:07:09,906 --> 00:07:10,146\n我一定要應戰\n\n22\n00:07:32,470 --> 00:07:56,566\n這個沒有問題就是說對於這一個部長這樣的一個態度那當然是我們在遵守國際法遵守這個各式各樣的規定之下武裝衝突法我們必須要遵守嘛對不對所以我們不要去開出這個第一槍但現在呢因為中國這個步步進兵跟灰色地帶我們作為以後的一個預判現在還沒有發生嘛假設他進兵已經到24海里已經到12海里但他又沒有進來他又偏偏在旁邊不斷的這個巡航\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n191\t615\t有請邱部長部長請\n10825\t32786\t沈伯洋好部長你好那我今天最主要是想要問這個關於灰色地帶作戰的一個因處那第一件事情就是說的確就是說我們在這個過往的一些文獻還有國防部的一些說法裡面不斷的提到這個灰色地帶作戰那這一次在業務報告裡面也看到就是說灰色地帶作戰為了因應\n33667\t34328\t國防部提出灰色地帶作戰\n49588\t78267\t我跟委員報告,從有這個灰帶的問題以後,我們大概每天在戰報當中或者記錄當中都有這些記載。我跟委員報告,我們這個指揮中心它成立,裡面有各連參,針對敵情的、針對海上的、飛彈的,甚至於國內各部隊一個狀況掌握,這是我們本務工作之一。所以我們有這個數量,假如委員要知道的話,我們可以提供或者到委員那邊去當面做說明,這樣的話比較詳盡一點。\n80034\t92908\t那我想知道的事情就是因為現在金門海域產生了一些衝突那我們當然也知道這個是下禮拜我們才會有一些更詳細的專報那這樣在部長的一個判斷裡面現在是不是一個灰色地帶作戰的一個情形呢\n93376\t120833\t我覺得灰色地帶不光是地帶,包含事件也是如此,這也有灰色物理兩可,像中線的問題或境線之水域,對方可以講從來沒有契約,或者的確有很多事情當初推動,並沒有契約,並沒有想雙方來簽訂,但多年行之有年的默契,也可以把我們很多不必要發生而且\n121753\t145139\t甚至於擦槍走火這些不可抗拒的問題把它給縮減我想這片面的做法它有它的講法但我們的作為不會變更持續保持監控對海型的一個資源相互協調交換情資這是我們本務工作會持續來做的\n146460\t166355\t剛剛有提到破壞現狀這件事情就是說不管是禁止或者限制的這個水域又或者說他們對海峽中線的破壞那對於來講我們的譬如說我們有沒有這樣的一個準則認為說當他們單方面的破壞現狀的情形就已經認為它是一個灰色地帶作戰然後進而我們必須要有更多的應變措施\n167296\t188666\t首跟委員簡單報告,我們國軍分成平時跟戰時的作為,平時裡面我們有分,有突發狀況、偶發事件的處理,跟一個危機處理,包含天然災害,平常我們怎麼應變。像這種灰色地帶,它介於平時跟戰時之間,所以我們一有這種狀況以後,我們會把它給記錄下來,當作一個狀況。\n192688\t219033\t所以平常我們是依據國軍的突發狀況處事規定來做一個我們對部隊的要求應對這些狀況多了以後我們應對的方法也不但在經濟所以為什麼會有各種的兵推包含漢光包含我們各鑽區甚至於海空軍他們有他們的兵推就針對可能發生狀況來做演練我想這也就應處灰色地帶\n219853\t237632\t讓他避免發生衝突的作為很具體的作為謝謝部長那我知道這個所謂突發狀況的這個應變他的內容應該是世俗機密但是對於就是說有沒有一個更高的指導原則因為譬如說像我在這邊列的像在早期這個國軍資訊戰的這個藥缸那我記得陸軍跟空軍後來也有提出相關的一些細則\n242037\t261718\t我們政治作戰也有政治作戰的藥缸那藥缸本身它並不會是機密那我們對於灰色地帶這件事情有沒有類似的doctrine就準則或者提出這樣的一個藥缸讓我們國人能夠更清楚的判斷現在是不是一個灰色地帶作戰沈國光委員講的像這些藥缸並不是機密但它裡面講的一個原理原則一個應屬的方法\n264841\t290490\t事實上國軍為了要防止這些突發狀況避免它到最後擴大變一個全面性的一個衝突的話我們對各種狀況都只有設定設定以後但也是依據藥鋼裡面它的原則來辦理我講最簡單一個我們為什麼有這個我們備戰不求戰我們應戰但不必戰它就是為了這個大原則\n291750\t294273\t部長我之所以問這個藥缸很大的一個原因也是像剛剛提到的\n309833\t333776\t譬如說這個部長有時候會提到,譬如說我們這個是,我們可能是,我們不要,我們要避戰,這個,或者是我們不要去主動的挑起戰爭,我們不要挑釁。但現在呢,以中國在譬如說中南海的一個形勢,他們的作為,因為他不斷的步步進逼,所以有時候當我們提出這個所謂的避戰的態度的時候,他反而會覺得非常的喜悅,因為他會覺得說,那我又可以再往前更進一步。\n334196\t356003\t那我並不是說這是對或者錯的問題,而是說,如果我們有一個更高的指導原則,或者藥鋼等等之類的,讓我們知道說,譬如說我們今天在應處方面我們的組織形態是什麼。像我們剛剛講跟海巡他之間的協作這個是什麼。因為畢竟這個部長之前應該都有提到,海巡的事當然是海巡管嘛,那國防部有自己國防部必須要管轄的一個地方。\n356463\t372415\t但是像現在海巡已經面臨了這個法律戰跟輿論戰第一線的弟兄的法律框架已經被框架住了然後甚至害怕被起訴然後因為這樣士氣低落然後不敢提出任何的要求也因此海巡現在執法的能量已經掉下來\n373075\t392267\t那在掉下來的一個狀況之下本來海巡跟這個海軍他本來是有一個分界什麼時候是海巡做什麼時候是海軍做但如果今天在我們的藥缸裡面有沒有把這件事情納入到考量就是讓海巡的能量已經掉下來了海巡已經被限制住了那這時候國軍有沒有相對應不同的行動出現\n392898\t409828\t我跟委員報告,剛剛委員講的沒有錯,我們就怕人家誤會,我們應戰不必戰,跟我們避免戰爭這兩回事。所以我們為什麼國防部一開始就有動作,把第一級的要件改過來,改得更明確。\n410828\t429365\t因為以往認為第一集一定是對方開炮、開槍了,我們才有第一集。我們已經早就改了,所以第一集的界定,它只要有一個實體,不管是航空或者海航,一個實體,預約的規矩了,我們說第一集是一樣的,就把它當作我們一個反制。\n429906\t430146\t我一定要應戰\n452470\t476566\t這個沒有問題就是說對於這一個部長這樣的一個態度那當然是我們在遵守國際法遵守這個各式各樣的規定之下武裝衝突法我們必須要遵守嘛對不對所以我們不要去開出這個第一槍但現在呢因為中國這個步步進兵跟灰色地帶我們作為以後的一個預判現在還沒有發生嘛假設他進兵已經到24海里已經到12海里但他又沒有進來他又偏偏在旁邊不斷的這個巡航\n477927\t499974\t謝偉\n","txt":"有請邱部長部長請\n沈伯洋好部長你好那我今天最主要是想要問這個關於灰色地帶作戰的一個因處那第一件事情就是說的確就是說我們在這個過往的一些文獻還有國防部的一些說法裡面不斷的提到這個灰色地帶作戰那這一次在業務報告裡面也看到就是說灰色地帶作戰為了因應\n國防部提出灰色地帶作戰\n我跟委員報告,從有這個灰帶的問題以後,我們大概每天在戰報當中或者記錄當中都有這些記載。我跟委員報告,我們這個指揮中心它成立,裡面有各連參,針對敵情的、針對海上的、飛彈的,甚至於國內各部隊一個狀況掌握,這是我們本務工作之一。所以我們有這個數量,假如委員要知道的話,我們可以提供或者到委員那邊去當面做說明,這樣的話比較詳盡一點。\n那我想知道的事情就是因為現在金門海域產生了一些衝突那我們當然也知道這個是下禮拜我們才會有一些更詳細的專報那這樣在部長的一個判斷裡面現在是不是一個灰色地帶作戰的一個情形呢\n我覺得灰色地帶不光是地帶,包含事件也是如此,這也有灰色物理兩可,像中線的問題或境線之水域,對方可以講從來沒有契約,或者的確有很多事情當初推動,並沒有契約,並沒有想雙方來簽訂,但多年行之有年的默契,也可以把我們很多不必要發生而且\n甚至於擦槍走火這些不可抗拒的問題把它給縮減我想這片面的做法它有它的講法但我們的作為不會變更持續保持監控對海型的一個資源相互協調交換情資這是我們本務工作會持續來做的\n剛剛有提到破壞現狀這件事情就是說不管是禁止或者限制的這個水域又或者說他們對海峽中線的破壞那對於來講我們的譬如說我們有沒有這樣的一個準則認為說當他們單方面的破壞現狀的情形就已經認為它是一個灰色地帶作戰然後進而我們必須要有更多的應變措施\n首跟委員簡單報告,我們國軍分成平時跟戰時的作為,平時裡面我們有分,有突發狀況、偶發事件的處理,跟一個危機處理,包含天然災害,平常我們怎麼應變。像這種灰色地帶,它介於平時跟戰時之間,所以我們一有這種狀況以後,我們會把它給記錄下來,當作一個狀況。\n所以平常我們是依據國軍的突發狀況處事規定來做一個我們對部隊的要求應對這些狀況多了以後我們應對的方法也不但在經濟所以為什麼會有各種的兵推包含漢光包含我們各鑽區甚至於海空軍他們有他們的兵推就針對可能發生狀況來做演練我想這也就應處灰色地帶\n讓他避免發生衝突的作為很具體的作為謝謝部長那我知道這個所謂突發狀況的這個應變他的內容應該是世俗機密但是對於就是說有沒有一個更高的指導原則因為譬如說像我在這邊列的像在早期這個國軍資訊戰的這個藥缸那我記得陸軍跟空軍後來也有提出相關的一些細則\n我們政治作戰也有政治作戰的藥缸那藥缸本身它並不會是機密那我們對於灰色地帶這件事情有沒有類似的doctrine就準則或者提出這樣的一個藥缸讓我們國人能夠更清楚的判斷現在是不是一個灰色地帶作戰沈國光委員講的像這些藥缸並不是機密但它裡面講的一個原理原則一個應屬的方法\n事實上國軍為了要防止這些突發狀況避免它到最後擴大變一個全面性的一個衝突的話我們對各種狀況都只有設定設定以後但也是依據藥鋼裡面它的原則來辦理我講最簡單一個我們為什麼有這個我們備戰不求戰我們應戰但不必戰它就是為了這個大原則\n部長我之所以問這個藥缸很大的一個原因也是像剛剛提到的\n譬如說這個部長有時候會提到,譬如說我們這個是,我們可能是,我們不要,我們要避戰,這個,或者是我們不要去主動的挑起戰爭,我們不要挑釁。但現在呢,以中國在譬如說中南海的一個形勢,他們的作為,因為他不斷的步步進逼,所以有時候當我們提出這個所謂的避戰的態度的時候,他反而會覺得非常的喜悅,因為他會覺得說,那我又可以再往前更進一步。\n那我並不是說這是對或者錯的問題,而是說,如果我們有一個更高的指導原則,或者藥鋼等等之類的,讓我們知道說,譬如說我們今天在應處方面我們的組織形態是什麼。像我們剛剛講跟海巡他之間的協作這個是什麼。因為畢竟這個部長之前應該都有提到,海巡的事當然是海巡管嘛,那國防部有自己國防部必須要管轄的一個地方。\n但是像現在海巡已經面臨了這個法律戰跟輿論戰第一線的弟兄的法律框架已經被框架住了然後甚至害怕被起訴然後因為這樣士氣低落然後不敢提出任何的要求也因此海巡現在執法的能量已經掉下來\n那在掉下來的一個狀況之下本來海巡跟這個海軍他本來是有一個分界什麼時候是海巡做什麼時候是海軍做但如果今天在我們的藥缸裡面有沒有把這件事情納入到考量就是讓海巡的能量已經掉下來了海巡已經被限制住了那這時候國軍有沒有相對應不同的行動出現\n我跟委員報告,剛剛委員講的沒有錯,我們就怕人家誤會,我們應戰不必戰,跟我們避免戰爭這兩回事。所以我們為什麼國防部一開始就有動作,把第一級的要件改過來,改得更明確。\n因為以往認為第一集一定是對方開炮、開槍了,我們才有第一集。我們已經早就改了,所以第一集的界定,它只要有一個實體,不管是航空或者海航,一個實體,預約的規矩了,我們說第一集是一樣的,就把它當作我們一個反制。\n我一定要應戰\n這個沒有問題就是說對於這一個部長這樣的一個態度那當然是我們在遵守國際法遵守這個各式各樣的規定之下武裝衝突法我們必須要遵守嘛對不對所以我們不要去開出這個第一槍但現在呢因為中國這個步步進兵跟灰色地帶我們作為以後的一個預判現在還沒有發生嘛假設他進兵已經到24海里已經到12海里但他又沒有進來他又偏偏在旁邊不斷的這個巡航\n謝偉\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.191 --> 00:00.615\n有請邱部長部長請\n\n00:10.825 --> 00:32.786\n沈伯洋好部長你好那我今天最主要是想要問這個關於灰色地帶作戰的一個因處那第一件事情就是說的確就是說我們在這個過往的一些文獻還有國防部的一些說法裡面不斷的提到這個灰色地帶作戰那這一次在業務報告裡面也看到就是說灰色地帶作戰為了因應\n\n00:33.667 --> 00:34.328\n國防部提出灰色地帶作戰\n\n00:49.588 --> 01:18.267\n我跟委員報告,從有這個灰帶的問題以後,我們大概每天在戰報當中或者記錄當中都有這些記載。我跟委員報告,我們這個指揮中心它成立,裡面有各連參,針對敵情的、針對海上的、飛彈的,甚至於國內各部隊一個狀況掌握,這是我們本務工作之一。所以我們有這個數量,假如委員要知道的話,我們可以提供或者到委員那邊去當面做說明,這樣的話比較詳盡一點。\n\n01:20.034 --> 01:32.908\n那我想知道的事情就是因為現在金門海域產生了一些衝突那我們當然也知道這個是下禮拜我們才會有一些更詳細的專報那這樣在部長的一個判斷裡面現在是不是一個灰色地帶作戰的一個情形呢\n\n01:33.376 --> 02:00.833\n我覺得灰色地帶不光是地帶,包含事件也是如此,這也有灰色物理兩可,像中線的問題或境線之水域,對方可以講從來沒有契約,或者的確有很多事情當初推動,並沒有契約,並沒有想雙方來簽訂,但多年行之有年的默契,也可以把我們很多不必要發生而且\n\n02:01.753 --> 02:25.139\n甚至於擦槍走火這些不可抗拒的問題把它給縮減我想這片面的做法它有它的講法但我們的作為不會變更持續保持監控對海型的一個資源相互協調交換情資這是我們本務工作會持續來做的\n\n02:26.460 --> 02:46.355\n剛剛有提到破壞現狀這件事情就是說不管是禁止或者限制的這個水域又或者說他們對海峽中線的破壞那對於來講我們的譬如說我們有沒有這樣的一個準則認為說當他們單方面的破壞現狀的情形就已經認為它是一個灰色地帶作戰然後進而我們必須要有更多的應變措施\n\n02:47.296 --> 03:08.666\n首跟委員簡單報告,我們國軍分成平時跟戰時的作為,平時裡面我們有分,有突發狀況、偶發事件的處理,跟一個危機處理,包含天然災害,平常我們怎麼應變。像這種灰色地帶,它介於平時跟戰時之間,所以我們一有這種狀況以後,我們會把它給記錄下來,當作一個狀況。\n\n03:12.688 --> 03:39.033\n所以平常我們是依據國軍的突發狀況處事規定來做一個我們對部隊的要求應對這些狀況多了以後我們應對的方法也不但在經濟所以為什麼會有各種的兵推包含漢光包含我們各鑽區甚至於海空軍他們有他們的兵推就針對可能發生狀況來做演練我想這也就應處灰色地帶\n\n03:39.853 --> 03:57.632\n讓他避免發生衝突的作為很具體的作為謝謝部長那我知道這個所謂突發狀況的這個應變他的內容應該是世俗機密但是對於就是說有沒有一個更高的指導原則因為譬如說像我在這邊列的像在早期這個國軍資訊戰的這個藥缸那我記得陸軍跟空軍後來也有提出相關的一些細則\n\n04:02.037 --> 04:21.718\n我們政治作戰也有政治作戰的藥缸那藥缸本身它並不會是機密那我們對於灰色地帶這件事情有沒有類似的doctrine就準則或者提出這樣的一個藥缸讓我們國人能夠更清楚的判斷現在是不是一個灰色地帶作戰沈國光委員講的像這些藥缸並不是機密但它裡面講的一個原理原則一個應屬的方法\n\n04:24.841 --> 04:50.490\n事實上國軍為了要防止這些突發狀況避免它到最後擴大變一個全面性的一個衝突的話我們對各種狀況都只有設定設定以後但也是依據藥鋼裡面它的原則來辦理我講最簡單一個我們為什麼有這個我們備戰不求戰我們應戰但不必戰它就是為了這個大原則\n\n04:51.750 --> 04:54.273\n部長我之所以問這個藥缸很大的一個原因也是像剛剛提到的\n\n05:09.833 --> 05:33.776\n譬如說這個部長有時候會提到,譬如說我們這個是,我們可能是,我們不要,我們要避戰,這個,或者是我們不要去主動的挑起戰爭,我們不要挑釁。但現在呢,以中國在譬如說中南海的一個形勢,他們的作為,因為他不斷的步步進逼,所以有時候當我們提出這個所謂的避戰的態度的時候,他反而會覺得非常的喜悅,因為他會覺得說,那我又可以再往前更進一步。\n\n05:34.196 --> 05:56.003\n那我並不是說這是對或者錯的問題,而是說,如果我們有一個更高的指導原則,或者藥鋼等等之類的,讓我們知道說,譬如說我們今天在應處方面我們的組織形態是什麼。像我們剛剛講跟海巡他之間的協作這個是什麼。因為畢竟這個部長之前應該都有提到,海巡的事當然是海巡管嘛,那國防部有自己國防部必須要管轄的一個地方。\n\n05:56.463 --> 06:12.415\n但是像現在海巡已經面臨了這個法律戰跟輿論戰第一線的弟兄的法律框架已經被框架住了然後甚至害怕被起訴然後因為這樣士氣低落然後不敢提出任何的要求也因此海巡現在執法的能量已經掉下來\n\n06:13.075 --> 06:32.267\n那在掉下來的一個狀況之下本來海巡跟這個海軍他本來是有一個分界什麼時候是海巡做什麼時候是海軍做但如果今天在我們的藥缸裡面有沒有把這件事情納入到考量就是讓海巡的能量已經掉下來了海巡已經被限制住了那這時候國軍有沒有相對應不同的行動出現\n\n06:32.898 --> 06:49.828\n我跟委員報告,剛剛委員講的沒有錯,我們就怕人家誤會,我們應戰不必戰,跟我們避免戰爭這兩回事。所以我們為什麼國防部一開始就有動作,把第一級的要件改過來,改得更明確。\n\n06:50.828 --> 07:09.365\n因為以往認為第一集一定是對方開炮、開槍了,我們才有第一集。我們已經早就改了,所以第一集的界定,它只要有一個實體,不管是航空或者海航,一個實體,預約的規矩了,我們說第一集是一樣的,就把它當作我們一個反制。\n\n07:09.906 --> 07:10.146\n我一定要應戰\n\n07:32.470 --> 07:56.566\n這個沒有問題就是說對於這一個部長這樣的一個態度那當然是我們在遵守國際法遵守這個各式各樣的規定之下武裝衝突法我們必須要遵守嘛對不對所以我們不要去開出這個第一槍但現在呢因為中國這個步步進兵跟灰色地帶我們作為以後的一個預判現在還沒有發生嘛假設他進兵已經到24海里已經到12海里但他又沒有進來他又偏偏在旁邊不斷的這個巡航\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.191,"end":0.615,"text":"有請邱部長部長請"},{"start":10.825,"end":32.786,"text":"沈伯洋好部長你好那我今天最主要是想要問這個關於灰色地帶作戰的一個因處那第一件事情就是說的確就是說我們在這個過往的一些文獻還有國防部的一些說法裡面不斷的提到這個灰色地帶作戰那這一次在業務報告裡面也看到就是說灰色地帶作戰為了因應"},{"start":33.667,"end":34.328,"text":"國防部提出灰色地帶作戰"},{"start":49.588,"end":78.267,"text":"我跟委員報告,從有這個灰帶的問題以後,我們大概每天在戰報當中或者記錄當中都有這些記載。我跟委員報告,我們這個指揮中心它成立,裡面有各連參,針對敵情的、針對海上的、飛彈的,甚至於國內各部隊一個狀況掌握,這是我們本務工作之一。所以我們有這個數量,假如委員要知道的話,我們可以提供或者到委員那邊去當面做說明,這樣的話比較詳盡一點。"},{"start":80.034,"end":92.908,"text":"那我想知道的事情就是因為現在金門海域產生了一些衝突那我們當然也知道這個是下禮拜我們才會有一些更詳細的專報那這樣在部長的一個判斷裡面現在是不是一個灰色地帶作戰的一個情形呢"},{"start":93.376,"end":120.833,"text":"我覺得灰色地帶不光是地帶,包含事件也是如此,這也有灰色物理兩可,像中線的問題或境線之水域,對方可以講從來沒有契約,或者的確有很多事情當初推動,並沒有契約,並沒有想雙方來簽訂,但多年行之有年的默契,也可以把我們很多不必要發生而且"},{"start":121.753,"end":145.139,"text":"甚至於擦槍走火這些不可抗拒的問題把它給縮減我想這片面的做法它有它的講法但我們的作為不會變更持續保持監控對海型的一個資源相互協調交換情資這是我們本務工作會持續來做的"},{"start":146.46,"end":166.355,"text":"剛剛有提到破壞現狀這件事情就是說不管是禁止或者限制的這個水域又或者說他們對海峽中線的破壞那對於來講我們的譬如說我們有沒有這樣的一個準則認為說當他們單方面的破壞現狀的情形就已經認為它是一個灰色地帶作戰然後進而我們必須要有更多的應變措施"},{"start":167.296,"end":188.666,"text":"首跟委員簡單報告,我們國軍分成平時跟戰時的作為,平時裡面我們有分,有突發狀況、偶發事件的處理,跟一個危機處理,包含天然災害,平常我們怎麼應變。像這種灰色地帶,它介於平時跟戰時之間,所以我們一有這種狀況以後,我們會把它給記錄下來,當作一個狀況。"},{"start":192.688,"end":219.033,"text":"所以平常我們是依據國軍的突發狀況處事規定來做一個我們對部隊的要求應對這些狀況多了以後我們應對的方法也不但在經濟所以為什麼會有各種的兵推包含漢光包含我們各鑽區甚至於海空軍他們有他們的兵推就針對可能發生狀況來做演練我想這也就應處灰色地帶"},{"start":219.853,"end":237.632,"text":"讓他避免發生衝突的作為很具體的作為謝謝部長那我知道這個所謂突發狀況的這個應變他的內容應該是世俗機密但是對於就是說有沒有一個更高的指導原則因為譬如說像我在這邊列的像在早期這個國軍資訊戰的這個藥缸那我記得陸軍跟空軍後來也有提出相關的一些細則"},{"start":242.037,"end":261.718,"text":"我們政治作戰也有政治作戰的藥缸那藥缸本身它並不會是機密那我們對於灰色地帶這件事情有沒有類似的doctrine就準則或者提出這樣的一個藥缸讓我們國人能夠更清楚的判斷現在是不是一個灰色地帶作戰沈國光委員講的像這些藥缸並不是機密但它裡面講的一個原理原則一個應屬的方法"},{"start":264.841,"end":290.49,"text":"事實上國軍為了要防止這些突發狀況避免它到最後擴大變一個全面性的一個衝突的話我們對各種狀況都只有設定設定以後但也是依據藥鋼裡面它的原則來辦理我講最簡單一個我們為什麼有這個我們備戰不求戰我們應戰但不必戰它就是為了這個大原則"},{"start":291.75,"end":294.273,"text":"部長我之所以問這個藥缸很大的一個原因也是像剛剛提到的"},{"start":309.833,"end":333.776,"text":"譬如說這個部長有時候會提到,譬如說我們這個是,我們可能是,我們不要,我們要避戰,這個,或者是我們不要去主動的挑起戰爭,我們不要挑釁。但現在呢,以中國在譬如說中南海的一個形勢,他們的作為,因為他不斷的步步進逼,所以有時候當我們提出這個所謂的避戰的態度的時候,他反而會覺得非常的喜悅,因為他會覺得說,那我又可以再往前更進一步。"},{"start":334.196,"end":356.003,"text":"那我並不是說這是對或者錯的問題,而是說,如果我們有一個更高的指導原則,或者藥鋼等等之類的,讓我們知道說,譬如說我們今天在應處方面我們的組織形態是什麼。像我們剛剛講跟海巡他之間的協作這個是什麼。因為畢竟這個部長之前應該都有提到,海巡的事當然是海巡管嘛,那國防部有自己國防部必須要管轄的一個地方。"},{"start":356.463,"end":372.415,"text":"但是像現在海巡已經面臨了這個法律戰跟輿論戰第一線的弟兄的法律框架已經被框架住了然後甚至害怕被起訴然後因為這樣士氣低落然後不敢提出任何的要求也因此海巡現在執法的能量已經掉下來"},{"start":373.075,"end":392.267,"text":"那在掉下來的一個狀況之下本來海巡跟這個海軍他本來是有一個分界什麼時候是海巡做什麼時候是海軍做但如果今天在我們的藥缸裡面有沒有把這件事情納入到考量就是讓海巡的能量已經掉下來了海巡已經被限制住了那這時候國軍有沒有相對應不同的行動出現"},{"start":392.898,"end":409.828,"text":"我跟委員報告,剛剛委員講的沒有錯,我們就怕人家誤會,我們應戰不必戰,跟我們避免戰爭這兩回事。所以我們為什麼國防部一開始就有動作,把第一級的要件改過來,改得更明確。"},{"start":410.828,"end":429.365,"text":"因為以往認為第一集一定是對方開炮、開槍了,我們才有第一集。我們已經早就改了,所以第一集的界定,它只要有一個實體,不管是航空或者海航,一個實體,預約的規矩了,我們說第一集是一樣的,就把它當作我們一個反制。"},{"start":429.906,"end":430.146,"text":"我一定要應戰"},{"start":452.47,"end":476.566,"text":"這個沒有問題就是說對於這一個部長這樣的一個態度那當然是我們在遵守國際法遵守這個各式各樣的規定之下武裝衝突法我們必須要遵守嘛對不對所以我們不要去開出這個第一槍但現在呢因為中國這個步步進兵跟灰色地帶我們作為以後的一個預判現在還沒有發生嘛假設他進兵已經到24海里已經到12海里但他又沒有進來他又偏偏在旁邊不斷的這個巡航"},{"start":477.927,"end":499.974,"text":"謝偉"}]}}}}