{"id":149466,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149466","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe09b82700cefcceb6aaa95e40c3cff622f8ba9b0039caa7a69241ffbcb2007b955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"09:49:16 - 10:01:44","影片長度":"00:12:28","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-4"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":748,"end_time":"2024-03-07T10:01:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T09:49:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1158,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（9時49分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。今天我想全民最關心的就是打詐，消民怨，萬事莫如打詐急。但是打詐最重要的是贓款要追回，另外，我也認為要速提科偵法，還要各部會協力。","我先來考考部長對於全球詐騙概況的了解。我們看到一個國外的統計資料，在臺灣，每個月會遇到一次詐騙的占比在全亞洲是第一名，意思是什麼？每個月喔！部長，你這個月有沒有接到詐騙電話或遇到詐騙的情事？"],["蔡部長清祥：我比較少。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是啦，我是說這個月啦！沒有、還沒有？"],["蔡部長清祥：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你是屬於那四分之三，我們大概有四分之一的人每個月都會遇到詐騙的情況，很多人都接到電話，我不好意思問在場沒有接過詐騙騷擾的有哪些人，應該都有，我這個星期也接到了。","我們來看一下，臺灣詐騙算嚴重嗎？你看一看，以各國的金額來看，臺灣的財損金額是排第23名，你覺得是怎麼樣，是臺灣人被騙，但是臺灣人沒有那麼多錢嗎？你看到新加坡第一，瑞士第二，奧地利第三，你的觀感是怎麼樣？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們不能用這樣來覺得說我們值得慶幸，但是真的是只要有財損，我覺得我們就應該要努力的來防止。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，部長的觀念正確。其實我們看到前幾名的國家很多是金融詐騙，因為這些國家都是金融國際化相當高的國家，所以可能他們的詐騙是屬於一種專業型的犯罪。雖然臺灣相對金額少，可是很多都是消費詐騙，你同意嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，這樣實況你有瞭解了，我們再往下看。其實對民眾來講，雖然損失的金額相較其他國家不是最多，但是經過調查，有將近六成的民眾是損失在1萬5,000元以下，部長，你現在身上有沒有1萬5,000元？"],["蔡部長清祥：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你跟我一樣家管嚴。損失1萬5,000元可能對很多中高收入的人不算什麼，雖然不到六成的民眾損失在1萬5,000元以下，但是將近七成的民眾認為這樣的損失對他們經濟產生顯著的影響，你覺得是什麼原因？損失的金額看起來不是很高，可是為什麼民眾覺得影響很巨大，你覺得呢？"],["蔡部長清祥：感受也非常不好，明明是我的錢，為什麼被人家這樣騙走？"],["鍾委員佳濱：我要告訴你原因，不要用經濟學的名詞，所得不高的人，就算損失金額不大，占比會影響他的生活，如果我1個月只賺3萬元，我被騙1萬5,000元，你說嚴不嚴重？如果我1個月賺10萬元，我被騙1萬5,000元，你覺得嚴不嚴重？可見很多被騙的、將近六成的民眾是屬於社會上，不要說升斗小民，他們是為了討生活很勉強維持的，這樣的人被詐騙個5,000、1萬，他這個月就很難過日子了。所以你瞭解為什麼民眾對詐騙深惡痛絕的原因了吧？","再往下看，其實就是這樣子，因為升斗小民被消費詐騙，損失個幾千塊、萬把塊，但是占他的收入、占他的生活影響非常之大，而江洋大盜去偷富豪的珠寶、美術、藝術品，其實社會感受不太強，是不是這樣？如果您對這樣的民怨有所瞭解，那就知道方向在哪裡了。所以部長，你覺得要解決誰的問題？是富豪被金融詐騙的問題、投資理財詐騙問題，還是一般薪水階級為了生活打拚的民眾被消費詐騙的問題？"],["蔡部長清祥：兩個都要重視啦！但是對於大多數的民眾來講，我們更要加以防範來保障他們的財產。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。接下來我們來看一下，其實很大的問題在哪裡？對民眾來講，他要的倒不是把他繩之以法、把他關一輩子，多數被騙的人最想要的是把錢拿回來，對不對？你覺得目前臺灣被詐騙，錢拿得回來嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們會儘量的來協助，像去年……"],["鍾委員佳濱：就您所知道的生活經驗、社會經驗，多數民眾錢被騙了拿得回來嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：很多是拿不回來啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：很多喔！好，我就告訴你，你的感受跟一般民眾的感覺一樣，多數的人被騙了，錢是拿不回來的。但是我們還是要肯定檢警的努力，查扣不法所得有所成長，你看，從我這個圖表來說，紅色的是財損金額，從2018年的39.7億到2023年被詐騙可以統計的案件數的財損是88.8億。接下來我們看看臨櫃關懷阻詐的跟我們追回的都很低，但是隨著時間的成長，我們看到現在追回39億了，這個還算不錯，但你有沒有注意到，臨櫃關懷阻詐的高達76億，那表示什麼？金融機構看到民眾可能被詐騙，他阻卻不要讓他錢轉出去，它的效果不錯喔！但是我們把被騙的只追回來39億，是不是還有成長空間？"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以這樣瞭解了？政府要鼓勵民眾識詐、金融機構阻詐，然後調查局、檢警要打詐，法務部最後隨同司法人員懲詐，但是最重要是什麼？錢要追回來，你同意嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你覺得追回贓款為什麼比阻詐還難呢？"],["蔡部長清祥：因為詐騙後的這些金額很快就能夠轉出去，會有斷點要追索很難，而且有很多是在境外，境外必須透過其他各國合作。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你講到前兩點了，轉手迅速、路徑複雜難以追查，還有一個很重要的，就算是抓到了、錢扣到了，司法單位很難判斷這些扣到的錢是誰的損失。我自己的家人就遇過，一堆被害人被騙了，後來抓到了車手也抓到帳戶，帳戶的錢是誰的？你有這個經驗嗎？怎麼分？怎麼證明這個大水庫裡面的錢是哪個小水池流過來的？你瞭解了？好。接下來，怎麼證明嫌犯的電子錢包或帳戶裡面是贓款？首先要有金流、要有交易的金額、要有交易的時間，但要確認這個錢是跟誰騙的，要有對話的明細，甚至要有車手取款時ATM提領的監視器畫面，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們要透過這些方式才有辦法追回贓款，明確地讓這些贓款回到損失者的身上，是不是這樣？"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可能你還沒有遇過，我覺得你的回答不太清楚。民眾實際遇到的是，人都抓到了、錢也扣到了，但法官沒有辦法確定哪些是你損失的錢。","我們現在從這裡來看一下，從車手往上追查首腦、贓款所要的資訊流。桃園地檢葉主任檢察官說，Telegram的訊息能自動焚燬，查扣的手機拿去數位鑑識都沒有用，科技難以取得資訊流，你們要如何向上追蹤？"],["蔡部長清祥：當然科技要請教一些專家來協助我們。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前有哪些方法？"],["蔡部長清祥：因為這是科技的專門技術，我還要再問一下我們同仁。"],["鍾委員佳濱：在場有沒有人知道？好，直接揭曉答案了，目前大概有這幾個。目前透過小木馬監控手機才能取得罪證，為什麼？因為我說過訊息放在手機裡面，當你扣到手機，它已經不見了，所以必須及時在犯罪嫌疑人手上植入俗稱的小木馬，在他進行通訊的同時就取證。你要把這個小木馬植入要透過釣魚的電子郵件或者利用嫌犯送廠維修，又或者利用他上色情網站的時候植入。目前植入這種木馬程式可以即時複製、蒐集資料傳送給偵查機關。請問部長知道這個方法嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：是，我……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有被採納嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：因為我們知道這個方法很有效，所以在我們所草擬的科技偵查及保障法就要把這個納進來。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是目前這個是不被法院認為有證據能力的，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：因為還沒有立法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，沒有立法。","我們來談一下科技偵查，我很關心科技偵查法究竟包括哪些項目？這些項目有些是檢察官保留，有些是法官保留，包括GPS，大家可能比較可以接受，M化車現在到處在跑，以及搜索雲端伺服器，甚至在線上搜索，但是在機房裡面線上搜索茲事體大，最可能被檢警採用的就是通訊端的監察，也就是小木馬。這一題我好像應該問刑事警察局比較清楚，法務部好像對這個問題的深入性不高。這個問題拉回來，你覺得這些東西有沒有幫助我們去追贓，讓民眾取回損失的金額？有沒有幫助？"],["蔡部長清祥：絕對有幫助。"],["鍾委員佳濱：法務部做了哪些努力？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們現在就趕快立法，讓採取這種作為的時候有法源的依據，不會產生爭議。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是相對有很多民眾擔心科技偵查會侵犯他的隱私，這一點法務部有什麼樣的應對？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們採取最嚴格的審核，所以大部分所使用的方法都要經過法官的核准。"],["鍾委員佳濱：除了法務部擬定科技偵查法之外，還需要哪些協助才能讓民眾取回贓款？比如金融機構協助管制人頭帳戶，比如FB這些社群網站要保留詐騙訊息，這些是法務部做得到的嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：法務部來協調。但是我知道有些金融機構可以採信，如果你能證明這個錢是從你的戶頭匯過來，即可以證明所扣押的帳戶裡面的錢是從哪裡來的，就很快還給你。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你也知道民眾除了需要法務部協助懲詐之外，還需要你們在偵辦的過程中跟其他機構合作，不然就是即時阻詐、不然就是讓金流不要流到境外、不然就是未來扣到贓款的時候能夠有效地拿回來，這些需要其他部會的協助，包括金融機構，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：包括管制FB這種社群網站的主管機關，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有哪些機關？"],["蔡部長清祥：包括NCC、數位部、金管會，還有內政部。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。請問你在提科技偵查法的時候，有沒有把科技偵查法沒辦法涵蓋的、這些需要協助的項目整理出來呢？"],["蔡部長清祥：他們這部分不放在科技偵查及保障法……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我知道，但是……"],["蔡部長清祥：但是高檢署有去協調這些執法的單位。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這些需求你們有整理出來了？"],["蔡部長清祥：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我就提出兩個：第一、請法務部儘速將科技偵查及保障法送立法院，達成民眾需要懲詐、打詐的目的，好不好？"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：什麼時候可以提出來？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們已經提出並送到行政院審查。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是還沒到我們這裡。"],["蔡部長清祥：在審議……對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，請你們儘速。第二、在打詐的分工上，法務部是懲詐，但是懲詐之外，需要其他部會協助的事項，你說高檢署已經有整理了，可不可以在一定期限內送到我這裡來、送到本委員會來？"],["蔡部長清祥：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：大概多久？1個月內？"],["蔡部長清祥：不用那麼久，我們儘快就給你，說明我們現在做的有哪些思維。"],["鍾委員佳濱：今天下班前就可以給我們了？"],["蔡部長清祥：應該可以整理出來給委員參考。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我會審視是不是足夠有效來協助民眾，讓政府不分各部會合力來打詐，可以嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：可以。"],["主席：接下來請莊瑞雄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-4","speakers":["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Kacaw","王世堅","黃珊珊","沈發惠","羅智強"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130901_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"149466","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149466","tool":"pyannote","id":"149466-pyannote"},"job_id":"BKWj8bCWKlhDNVHI","queued_at":"2024-06-02 09:19:31","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-02 09:19:31","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149466"},{"time":"2024-06-02 09:19:32","msg":"downloading https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe09b82700cefcceb6aaa95e40c3cff62207ca735ce7365c3e086e5678e26938075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"},{"time":"2024-06-02 09:19:52","msg":"converting mp4 to wav"},{"time":"2024-06-02 09:19:55","msg":"running pyannote"},{"time":"2024-06-02 09:20:07","msg":"status: 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745.504, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"打\", \"start\": 745.504, \"end\": 745.664, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"仗\", \"start\": 745.664, \"end\": 745.885, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 745.885, \"end\": 746.005, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 746.005, \"end\": 746.325, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 746.325, \"end\": 746.465, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 746.465, \"end\": 746.726, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 746.726, \"end\": 746.746, \"score\": 0.005}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,150 --> 00:00:00,977\n嘉賓委員發言\n\n2\n00:00:05,339 --> 00:00:28,610\n主席、在場的委員、先進、列席的政府機關所長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體資訊先生那今天呢我想全民最關心的就是打詐那想蕭明遠萬事莫如打詐極但是打詐最重要的是張款要追回那另外呢我也認為要速力趕快速提柯真法還要各部會協力那我先來請教一下考考我們部長啊你對於這個詐騙的全球概況\n\n3\n00:00:32,252 --> 00:00:55,603\n在臺灣我們看到一個國外的統計資料在臺灣每個月會遇到一次詐騙的占比在全亞洲是第一名那意思是什麼我們每個月部長你這個月有沒有接到詐騙電話或詐騙的情勢我比較少你比較不是我說這個月這個月沒有還沒有還沒有那你是屬於那四分之三\n\n4\n00:00:56,910 --> 00:01:22,052\n我們大概四分之一的人每個月都會遇到詐騙的情況很多人都接到電話我不好意思問在場沒有接過詐騙騷擾的應該都有我這個星期也接到了好那我們來看一下那詐騙算嚴重嗎台灣但是你看一看以各國的金額來看台灣的財損金額是排第23名你覺得咧這怎麼樣台灣人被騙但是台灣人沒有那麼多錢嗎\n\n5\n00:01:23,956 --> 00:01:27,801\n你看到新加坡第一瑞士第二奧地利三你的觀感是怎麼樣\n\n6\n00:01:29,724 --> 00:01:57,367\n我們不能用這樣來覺得說我們值得慶幸但是真的是只要有財損我覺得我們就應該要努力的來防止部長的觀念正確其實我們看到這前幾名的國家很多是金融詐騙因為這些國家都是金融自由化相當高的國家國際化相當高的國家所以可能他們的詐騙是屬於一種專業型的犯罪在台灣相對金額少可是很多都是消費詐騙你同意嗎\n\n7\n00:02:02,170 --> 00:02:24,540\n其實對民眾來講雖然損失的金額相較其他國家不是最多但是經過調查有將近六成的民眾覺得六成的民眾是損失在一萬五千元部長你現在身上有沒有一萬五千元沒有那你跟我一樣加管研那麼損失一萬五千元可能對很多中高收入的人不算什麼\n\n8\n00:02:25,168 --> 00:02:42,495\n但是這雖然不到6成的民眾他們損失在15000以下但是將近7成的民眾認為這樣的損失對他們經濟產生顯著的影響你覺得是什麼原因損失的金額看起來不是很高可是為什麼民眾覺得影響很巨大你覺得呢\n\n9\n00:02:43,909 --> 00:03:01,982\n感受也非常不好明明是我的錢為什麼被人家這樣騙走我要告訴你原因你聽過那種不要用經濟學的名詞所得不高的人就算損失金額不大佔比會影響他的生活如果我一個月只賺3萬元我被騙1萬5你說嚴不嚴重\n\n10\n00:03:04,386 --> 00:03:04,586\n主席\n\n11\n00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:33,320\n委員會主管列席報告\n\n12\n00:04:02,305 --> 00:04:28,854\n兩個都要重視但是對於大多數的民眾來講我們更加要加以防範來保障他們的財產好那我們來看一看那接下來我們來看一下其實呢很大的問題在哪裡其實呢其實監警呢其實對民眾來講他要的倒不是說把他繩子依法把他關關到一輩子多數的被騙的人呢最想要的是把錢拿回來\n\n13\n00:04:30,150 --> 00:04:36,634\n你覺得目前台灣被詐騙的錢拿得回來嗎?你所知道的生活經驗、社會經驗,多數民眾錢被騙了拿得回來嗎?那我就告訴你,你的感受跟一般民眾的感覺一樣\n\n14\n00:04:49,155 --> 00:04:49,215\n主席\n\n15\n00:05:11,735 --> 00:05:37,755\n然後接下來我們看看靈慧關懷主詐的跟我們追回的都很低但是隨著時間的成長我們看到了我們現在追回來的追回39億了這個還算不錯但你有沒有注意到靈慧關懷主詐的高達76億那表示什麼金融機構他看到民眾可能被詐騙他主卻不要讓他錢轉出去他的效果不錯\n\n16\n00:05:39,036 --> 00:06:06,662\n但是我們被騙了把他追回來的只追回39億是不是還有成長空間是所以這樣了解的我們這個政府在鼓勵民眾及澳大利亞民眾試詐然後呢金融機構主詐然後呢後面還要打詐調查局檢警要打詐那我們法務部呢藉口學術同事反應懲詐但是最重要是什麼錢要追回來你同意嗎同意同意好那麼追回賬款為什麼比主詐還難呢你覺得\n\n17\n00:06:09,468 --> 00:06:37,549\n因為他詐騙後的這些金額啊很快的就能夠轉出去啊是有斷點啊要追索很難啊對而且有很多是在境外對境外的話透過其他各國的合作了好你講到前兩點了轉手迅速路徑難以複雜難以追查還有一個很重要的就算是抓到了錢扣到了司法單位很難判斷這些扣到錢是誰的損失我自己的家人就遇到過\n\n18\n00:06:38,930 --> 00:06:56,878\n被騙了後來一堆被害人去抓到了車手抓到帳戶帳戶的錢是誰的你有這個經驗嗎怎麼分怎麼證明這個錢這個大水庫裡面的錢是哪個小水池流過來的你了解了好那怎麼證明接下來我們看怎麼證明嫌患的電子錢包或帳戶裡面是贓款\n\n19\n00:06:57,418 --> 00:07:14,926\n首先你要有金流要有交易的金額要有交易的時間但你要確認這個錢是跟誰騙的你要有對話的明細甚至取款的時候車子取款的時候ATM的提領的監視器畫面對不對我們要透過這些方式再有辦法追回彰款的時候明確的讓這些彰款回復到損失者的身上是不是這樣\n\n20\n00:07:15,646 --> 00:07:16,966\n科技難以取得的資訊流,我們要如何上當追蹤?\n\n21\n00:07:46,818 --> 00:07:59,885\n當然這科技要請教一些專家來協助我們那目前有哪些方法因為這科技的專門技術我還要再問一下我們同仁同仁在場有沒有人知道\n\n22\n00:08:01,442 --> 00:08:23,296\n好那直接揭曉答案目前大概有這幾個目前透過小木馬監控手機才能取得罪證為什麼因為我說過你手機裡面你扣到手機它已經不見了所以必須即時的在犯罪嫌疑人手上植入俗稱的小木馬在他進行通訊的同時就同時取證那這裡面你要把這個小木馬植入釣魚的電子郵件或者利用\n\n23\n00:08:23,916 --> 00:08:28,000\n那請問部長你知道這個方法嗎?有被採納嗎?因為所以我們知道這個方法是很有效所以在我們所草擬的科技偵查及保障法就要把他這個納進來\n\n24\n00:08:49,360 --> 00:09:08,106\n但是目前這個是不被法院認為有證據能力的對不對因為還沒有立法對沒有立法嘛好那科技偵查我們來談一下今天我就很關心的是科技偵查法包括哪些的項目那這些項目有些是檢察官保留也是法官保留包括GPS這個可能比較大家可以接受M化車現在到處在跑\n\n25\n00:09:08,866 --> 00:09:09,286\n李卓人議員\n\n26\n00:09:32,162 --> 00:09:56,145\n那我想這個問題拉回來你覺得這些東西有沒有幫助我們去追張讓民眾取回損失的金額有沒有幫助絕對有幫助那法務部做了哪些努力我們現在就趕快立法讓他在採取這種作為的時候有法源的依據不會產生爭議但是相對有很多民眾會擔心\n\n27\n00:09:57,566 --> 00:10:25,675\n科技偵查會侵犯他的隱私那這點法務部有什麼樣的應對我們採取最嚴格的審核所以大部分這邊所使用的方法都要經過法官的核准那除了科技偵查法之外除了法務部之外還需要哪些協助才能讓民眾取回賬款比如說金融機構協助管制人頭賬戶比如說FB這些社群網站要保留詐騙訊息這個是你法務部做得到的嗎\n\n28\n00:10:27,516 --> 00:10:39,448\n法務部來協調啦,但是我知道有些金融機構啊,他可以採信說如果你證明這個錢是從你的戶頭匯過來的話那我很快的,這筆錢在這個所扣押的帳戶裡面可以證明說這個錢是從哪裡來的,我就很快的還給你\n\n29\n00:10:46,075 --> 00:11:12,331\n所以你也知道民眾除了法務部協助去懲詐之外他們需要在偵辦的過程中跟其他機構的合作才能夠不然就是即時阻詐不然就是讓金流不要流到境外不然就是要在未來扣到賬款的時候能夠有效的拿回來需要其他部位的協助包括金融機構對不對那包括了像包括管制FB這種社群網站的這個主管機關對不對那有哪些機關\n\n30\n00:11:13,995 --> 00:11:29,040\n包括NCC包括數位部包括金管會還有包括內政部很好那請問這些單位您在提科技章法的時候有沒有把科技章法裡面沒有辦法涵蓋的部分你有把這些需要協助的這樣整理出來呢\n\n31\n00:11:30,011 --> 00:11:55,997\n他們這一部分是不放在科技偵查保障法但是我們高檢署有去協調這些執法單位那這些需求你們有整理出來了有好那我就這樣兩個第一請法務部盡速將科技偵查及保障法送立法院讓我們來滿足達成民眾需要懲詐打詐的這個目的好不好是什麼時候可以提出來我們已經提出已經送到行政院去審查但是還沒到我們這裡來好那請你們追溯第二\n\n32\n00:11:56,497 --> 00:12:16,734\n那從法務部你從懲詐在打造的分工上你們法務部是懲詐但是你懲詐之外你需要其他部會的協助事項你說高檢署已經有整理了是可不可以在一定期間內送到我這裡來送到我們委員會來好大概多久一個月內不用那麼久了我們盡快就給你我們現在做的謝謝市委今天下半年就可以給我們了\n\n33\n00:12:17,455 --> 00:12:26,746\n應該可以整理出來我會去審視是不是足夠有效來協助我們民眾讓政府不分各部會合力來打仗可以嗎可以好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n150\t977\t嘉賓委員發言\n5339\t28610\t主席、在場的委員、先進、列席的政府機關所長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體資訊先生那今天呢我想全民最關心的就是打詐那想蕭明遠萬事莫如打詐極但是打詐最重要的是張款要追回那另外呢我也認為要速力趕快速提柯真法還要各部會協力那我先來請教一下考考我們部長啊你對於這個詐騙的全球概況\n32252\t55603\t在臺灣我們看到一個國外的統計資料在臺灣每個月會遇到一次詐騙的占比在全亞洲是第一名那意思是什麼我們每個月部長你這個月有沒有接到詐騙電話或詐騙的情勢我比較少你比較不是我說這個月這個月沒有還沒有還沒有那你是屬於那四分之三\n56910\t82052\t我們大概四分之一的人每個月都會遇到詐騙的情況很多人都接到電話我不好意思問在場沒有接過詐騙騷擾的應該都有我這個星期也接到了好那我們來看一下那詐騙算嚴重嗎台灣但是你看一看以各國的金額來看台灣的財損金額是排第23名你覺得咧這怎麼樣台灣人被騙但是台灣人沒有那麼多錢嗎\n83956\t87801\t你看到新加坡第一瑞士第二奧地利三你的觀感是怎麼樣\n89724\t117367\t我們不能用這樣來覺得說我們值得慶幸但是真的是只要有財損我覺得我們就應該要努力的來防止部長的觀念正確其實我們看到這前幾名的國家很多是金融詐騙因為這些國家都是金融自由化相當高的國家國際化相當高的國家所以可能他們的詐騙是屬於一種專業型的犯罪在台灣相對金額少可是很多都是消費詐騙你同意嗎\n122170\t144540\t其實對民眾來講雖然損失的金額相較其他國家不是最多但是經過調查有將近六成的民眾覺得六成的民眾是損失在一萬五千元部長你現在身上有沒有一萬五千元沒有那你跟我一樣加管研那麼損失一萬五千元可能對很多中高收入的人不算什麼\n145168\t162495\t但是這雖然不到6成的民眾他們損失在15000以下但是將近7成的民眾認為這樣的損失對他們經濟產生顯著的影響你覺得是什麼原因損失的金額看起來不是很高可是為什麼民眾覺得影響很巨大你覺得呢\n163909\t181982\t感受也非常不好明明是我的錢為什麼被人家這樣騙走我要告訴你原因你聽過那種不要用經濟學的名詞所得不高的人就算損失金額不大佔比會影響他的生活如果我一個月只賺3萬元我被騙1萬5你說嚴不嚴重\n184386\t184586\t主席\n212560\t213320\t委員會主管列席報告\n242305\t268854\t兩個都要重視但是對於大多數的民眾來講我們更加要加以防範來保障他們的財產好那我們來看一看那接下來我們來看一下其實呢很大的問題在哪裡其實呢其實監警呢其實對民眾來講他要的倒不是說把他繩子依法把他關關到一輩子多數的被騙的人呢最想要的是把錢拿回來\n270150\t276634\t你覺得目前台灣被詐騙的錢拿得回來嗎?你所知道的生活經驗、社會經驗,多數民眾錢被騙了拿得回來嗎?那我就告訴你,你的感受跟一般民眾的感覺一樣\n289155\t289215\t主席\n311735\t337755\t然後接下來我們看看靈慧關懷主詐的跟我們追回的都很低但是隨著時間的成長我們看到了我們現在追回來的追回39億了這個還算不錯但你有沒有注意到靈慧關懷主詐的高達76億那表示什麼金融機構他看到民眾可能被詐騙他主卻不要讓他錢轉出去他的效果不錯\n339036\t366662\t但是我們被騙了把他追回來的只追回39億是不是還有成長空間是所以這樣了解的我們這個政府在鼓勵民眾及澳大利亞民眾試詐然後呢金融機構主詐然後呢後面還要打詐調查局檢警要打詐那我們法務部呢藉口學術同事反應懲詐但是最重要是什麼錢要追回來你同意嗎同意同意好那麼追回賬款為什麼比主詐還難呢你覺得\n369468\t397549\t因為他詐騙後的這些金額啊很快的就能夠轉出去啊是有斷點啊要追索很難啊對而且有很多是在境外對境外的話透過其他各國的合作了好你講到前兩點了轉手迅速路徑難以複雜難以追查還有一個很重要的就算是抓到了錢扣到了司法單位很難判斷這些扣到錢是誰的損失我自己的家人就遇到過\n398930\t416878\t被騙了後來一堆被害人去抓到了車手抓到帳戶帳戶的錢是誰的你有這個經驗嗎怎麼分怎麼證明這個錢這個大水庫裡面的錢是哪個小水池流過來的你了解了好那怎麼證明接下來我們看怎麼證明嫌患的電子錢包或帳戶裡面是贓款\n417418\t434926\t首先你要有金流 要有交易的金額 要有交易的時間但你要確認這個錢是跟誰騙的 你要有對話的明細甚至取款的時候 車子取款的時候 ATM的提領的監視器畫面 對不對我們要透過這些方式 再有辦法追回彰款的時候明確的讓這些彰款回復到損失者的身上 是不是這樣\n435646\t436966\t科技難以取得的資訊流,我們要如何上當追蹤?\n466818\t479885\t當然這科技要請教一些專家來協助我們那目前有哪些方法因為這科技的專門技術我還要再問一下我們同仁同仁在場有沒有人知道\n481442\t503296\t好那直接揭曉答案目前大概有這幾個目前透過小木馬監控手機才能取得罪證為什麼因為我說過你手機裡面你扣到手機它已經不見了所以必須即時的在犯罪嫌疑人手上植入俗稱的小木馬在他進行通訊的同時就同時取證那這裡面你要把這個小木馬植入釣魚的電子郵件或者利用\n503916\t508000\t那請問部長你知道這個方法嗎?有被採納嗎?因為所以我們知道這個方法是很有效所以在我們所草擬的科技偵查及保障法就要把他這個納進來\n529360\t548106\t但是目前這個是不被法院認為有證據能力的對不對因為還沒有立法對沒有立法嘛好那科技偵查我們來談一下今天我就很關心的是科技偵查法包括哪些的項目那這些項目有些是檢察官保留也是法官保留包括GPS這個可能比較大家可以接受M化車現在到處在跑\n548866\t549286\t李卓人議員\n572162\t596145\t那我想這個問題拉回來你覺得這些東西有沒有幫助我們去追張讓民眾取回損失的金額有沒有幫助絕對有幫助那法務部做了哪些努力我們現在就趕快立法讓他在採取這種作為的時候有法源的依據不會產生爭議但是相對有很多民眾會擔心\n597566\t625675\t科技偵查會侵犯他的隱私那這點法務部有什麼樣的應對我們採取最嚴格的審核所以大部分這邊所使用的方法都要經過法官的核准那除了科技偵查法之外除了法務部之外還需要哪些協助才能讓民眾取回賬款比如說金融機構協助管制人頭賬戶比如說FB這些社群網站要保留詐騙訊息這個是你法務部做得到的嗎\n627516\t639448\t法務部來協調啦,但是我知道有些金融機構啊,他可以採信說如果你證明這個錢是從你的戶頭匯過來的話那我很快的,這筆錢在這個所扣押的帳戶裡面可以證明說這個錢是從哪裡來的,我就很快的還給你\n646075\t672331\t所以你也知道民眾除了法務部協助去懲詐之外他們需要在偵辦的過程中跟其他機構的合作才能夠不然就是即時阻詐不然就是讓金流不要流到境外不然就是要在未來扣到賬款的時候能夠有效的拿回來需要其他部位的協助包括金融機構對不對那包括了像包括管制FB這種社群網站的這個主管機關對不對那有哪些機關\n673995\t689040\t包括NCC包括數位部包括金管會還有包括內政部很好那請問這些單位您在提科技章法的時候有沒有把科技章法裡面沒有辦法涵蓋的部分你有把這些需要協助的這樣整理出來呢\n690011\t715997\t他們這一部分是不放在科技偵查保障法但是我們高檢署有去協調這些執法單位那這些需求你們有整理出來了有好那我就這樣兩個第一請法務部盡速將科技偵查及保障法送立法院讓我們來滿足達成民眾需要懲詐打詐的這個目的好不好是什麼時候可以提出來我們已經提出已經送到行政院去審查但是還沒到我們這裡來好那請你們追溯第二\n716497\t736734\t那從法務部你從懲詐在打造的分工上你們法務部是懲詐但是你懲詐之外你需要其他部會的協助事項你說高檢署已經有整理了是可不可以在一定期間內送到我這裡來送到我們委員會來好大概多久一個月內不用那麼久了我們盡快就給你我們現在做的謝謝市委今天下半年就可以給我們了\n737455\t746746\t應該可以整理出來我會去審視是不是足夠有效來協助我們民眾讓政府不分各部會合力來打仗可以嗎可以好 謝謝\n","txt":"嘉賓委員發言\n主席、在場的委員、先進、列席的政府機關所長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體資訊先生那今天呢我想全民最關心的就是打詐那想蕭明遠萬事莫如打詐極但是打詐最重要的是張款要追回那另外呢我也認為要速力趕快速提柯真法還要各部會協力那我先來請教一下考考我們部長啊你對於這個詐騙的全球概況\n在臺灣我們看到一個國外的統計資料在臺灣每個月會遇到一次詐騙的占比在全亞洲是第一名那意思是什麼我們每個月部長你這個月有沒有接到詐騙電話或詐騙的情勢我比較少你比較不是我說這個月這個月沒有還沒有還沒有那你是屬於那四分之三\n我們大概四分之一的人每個月都會遇到詐騙的情況很多人都接到電話我不好意思問在場沒有接過詐騙騷擾的應該都有我這個星期也接到了好那我們來看一下那詐騙算嚴重嗎台灣但是你看一看以各國的金額來看台灣的財損金額是排第23名你覺得咧這怎麼樣台灣人被騙但是台灣人沒有那麼多錢嗎\n你看到新加坡第一瑞士第二奧地利三你的觀感是怎麼樣\n我們不能用這樣來覺得說我們值得慶幸但是真的是只要有財損我覺得我們就應該要努力的來防止部長的觀念正確其實我們看到這前幾名的國家很多是金融詐騙因為這些國家都是金融自由化相當高的國家國際化相當高的國家所以可能他們的詐騙是屬於一種專業型的犯罪在台灣相對金額少可是很多都是消費詐騙你同意嗎\n其實對民眾來講雖然損失的金額相較其他國家不是最多但是經過調查有將近六成的民眾覺得六成的民眾是損失在一萬五千元部長你現在身上有沒有一萬五千元沒有那你跟我一樣加管研那麼損失一萬五千元可能對很多中高收入的人不算什麼\n但是這雖然不到6成的民眾他們損失在15000以下但是將近7成的民眾認為這樣的損失對他們經濟產生顯著的影響你覺得是什麼原因損失的金額看起來不是很高可是為什麼民眾覺得影響很巨大你覺得呢\n感受也非常不好明明是我的錢為什麼被人家這樣騙走我要告訴你原因你聽過那種不要用經濟學的名詞所得不高的人就算損失金額不大佔比會影響他的生活如果我一個月只賺3萬元我被騙1萬5你說嚴不嚴重\n主席\n委員會主管列席報告\n兩個都要重視但是對於大多數的民眾來講我們更加要加以防範來保障他們的財產好那我們來看一看那接下來我們來看一下其實呢很大的問題在哪裡其實呢其實監警呢其實對民眾來講他要的倒不是說把他繩子依法把他關關到一輩子多數的被騙的人呢最想要的是把錢拿回來\n你覺得目前台灣被詐騙的錢拿得回來嗎?你所知道的生活經驗、社會經驗,多數民眾錢被騙了拿得回來嗎?那我就告訴你,你的感受跟一般民眾的感覺一樣\n主席\n然後接下來我們看看靈慧關懷主詐的跟我們追回的都很低但是隨著時間的成長我們看到了我們現在追回來的追回39億了這個還算不錯但你有沒有注意到靈慧關懷主詐的高達76億那表示什麼金融機構他看到民眾可能被詐騙他主卻不要讓他錢轉出去他的效果不錯\n但是我們被騙了把他追回來的只追回39億是不是還有成長空間是所以這樣了解的我們這個政府在鼓勵民眾及澳大利亞民眾試詐然後呢金融機構主詐然後呢後面還要打詐調查局檢警要打詐那我們法務部呢藉口學術同事反應懲詐但是最重要是什麼錢要追回來你同意嗎同意同意好那麼追回賬款為什麼比主詐還難呢你覺得\n因為他詐騙後的這些金額啊很快的就能夠轉出去啊是有斷點啊要追索很難啊對而且有很多是在境外對境外的話透過其他各國的合作了好你講到前兩點了轉手迅速路徑難以複雜難以追查還有一個很重要的就算是抓到了錢扣到了司法單位很難判斷這些扣到錢是誰的損失我自己的家人就遇到過\n被騙了後來一堆被害人去抓到了車手抓到帳戶帳戶的錢是誰的你有這個經驗嗎怎麼分怎麼證明這個錢這個大水庫裡面的錢是哪個小水池流過來的你了解了好那怎麼證明接下來我們看怎麼證明嫌患的電子錢包或帳戶裡面是贓款\n首先你要有金流 要有交易的金額 要有交易的時間但你要確認這個錢是跟誰騙的 你要有對話的明細甚至取款的時候 車子取款的時候 ATM的提領的監視器畫面 對不對我們要透過這些方式 再有辦法追回彰款的時候明確的讓這些彰款回復到損失者的身上 是不是這樣\n科技難以取得的資訊流,我們要如何上當追蹤?\n當然這科技要請教一些專家來協助我們那目前有哪些方法因為這科技的專門技術我還要再問一下我們同仁同仁在場有沒有人知道\n好那直接揭曉答案目前大概有這幾個目前透過小木馬監控手機才能取得罪證為什麼因為我說過你手機裡面你扣到手機它已經不見了所以必須即時的在犯罪嫌疑人手上植入俗稱的小木馬在他進行通訊的同時就同時取證那這裡面你要把這個小木馬植入釣魚的電子郵件或者利用\n那請問部長你知道這個方法嗎?有被採納嗎?因為所以我們知道這個方法是很有效所以在我們所草擬的科技偵查及保障法就要把他這個納進來\n但是目前這個是不被法院認為有證據能力的對不對因為還沒有立法對沒有立法嘛好那科技偵查我們來談一下今天我就很關心的是科技偵查法包括哪些的項目那這些項目有些是檢察官保留也是法官保留包括GPS這個可能比較大家可以接受M化車現在到處在跑\n李卓人議員\n那我想這個問題拉回來你覺得這些東西有沒有幫助我們去追張讓民眾取回損失的金額有沒有幫助絕對有幫助那法務部做了哪些努力我們現在就趕快立法讓他在採取這種作為的時候有法源的依據不會產生爭議但是相對有很多民眾會擔心\n科技偵查會侵犯他的隱私那這點法務部有什麼樣的應對我們採取最嚴格的審核所以大部分這邊所使用的方法都要經過法官的核准那除了科技偵查法之外除了法務部之外還需要哪些協助才能讓民眾取回賬款比如說金融機構協助管制人頭賬戶比如說FB這些社群網站要保留詐騙訊息這個是你法務部做得到的嗎\n法務部來協調啦,但是我知道有些金融機構啊,他可以採信說如果你證明這個錢是從你的戶頭匯過來的話那我很快的,這筆錢在這個所扣押的帳戶裡面可以證明說這個錢是從哪裡來的,我就很快的還給你\n所以你也知道民眾除了法務部協助去懲詐之外他們需要在偵辦的過程中跟其他機構的合作才能夠不然就是即時阻詐不然就是讓金流不要流到境外不然就是要在未來扣到賬款的時候能夠有效的拿回來需要其他部位的協助包括金融機構對不對那包括了像包括管制FB這種社群網站的這個主管機關對不對那有哪些機關\n包括NCC包括數位部包括金管會還有包括內政部很好那請問這些單位您在提科技章法的時候有沒有把科技章法裡面沒有辦法涵蓋的部分你有把這些需要協助的這樣整理出來呢\n他們這一部分是不放在科技偵查保障法但是我們高檢署有去協調這些執法單位那這些需求你們有整理出來了有好那我就這樣兩個第一請法務部盡速將科技偵查及保障法送立法院讓我們來滿足達成民眾需要懲詐打詐的這個目的好不好是什麼時候可以提出來我們已經提出已經送到行政院去審查但是還沒到我們這裡來好那請你們追溯第二\n那從法務部你從懲詐在打造的分工上你們法務部是懲詐但是你懲詐之外你需要其他部會的協助事項你說高檢署已經有整理了是可不可以在一定期間內送到我這裡來送到我們委員會來好大概多久一個月內不用那麼久了我們盡快就給你我們現在做的謝謝市委今天下半年就可以給我們了\n應該可以整理出來我會去審視是不是足夠有效來協助我們民眾讓政府不分各部會合力來打仗可以嗎可以好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.150 --> 00:00.977\n嘉賓委員發言\n\n00:05.339 --> 00:28.610\n主席、在場的委員、先進、列席的政府機關所長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體資訊先生那今天呢我想全民最關心的就是打詐那想蕭明遠萬事莫如打詐極但是打詐最重要的是張款要追回那另外呢我也認為要速力趕快速提柯真法還要各部會協力那我先來請教一下考考我們部長啊你對於這個詐騙的全球概況\n\n00:32.252 --> 00:55.603\n在臺灣我們看到一個國外的統計資料在臺灣每個月會遇到一次詐騙的占比在全亞洲是第一名那意思是什麼我們每個月部長你這個月有沒有接到詐騙電話或詐騙的情勢我比較少你比較不是我說這個月這個月沒有還沒有還沒有那你是屬於那四分之三\n\n00:56.910 --> 01:22.052\n我們大概四分之一的人每個月都會遇到詐騙的情況很多人都接到電話我不好意思問在場沒有接過詐騙騷擾的應該都有我這個星期也接到了好那我們來看一下那詐騙算嚴重嗎台灣但是你看一看以各國的金額來看台灣的財損金額是排第23名你覺得咧這怎麼樣台灣人被騙但是台灣人沒有那麼多錢嗎\n\n01:23.956 --> 01:27.801\n你看到新加坡第一瑞士第二奧地利三你的觀感是怎麼樣\n\n01:29.724 --> 01:57.367\n我們不能用這樣來覺得說我們值得慶幸但是真的是只要有財損我覺得我們就應該要努力的來防止部長的觀念正確其實我們看到這前幾名的國家很多是金融詐騙因為這些國家都是金融自由化相當高的國家國際化相當高的國家所以可能他們的詐騙是屬於一種專業型的犯罪在台灣相對金額少可是很多都是消費詐騙你同意嗎\n\n02:02.170 --> 02:24.540\n其實對民眾來講雖然損失的金額相較其他國家不是最多但是經過調查有將近六成的民眾覺得六成的民眾是損失在一萬五千元部長你現在身上有沒有一萬五千元沒有那你跟我一樣加管研那麼損失一萬五千元可能對很多中高收入的人不算什麼\n\n02:25.168 --> 02:42.495\n但是這雖然不到6成的民眾他們損失在15000以下但是將近7成的民眾認為這樣的損失對他們經濟產生顯著的影響你覺得是什麼原因損失的金額看起來不是很高可是為什麼民眾覺得影響很巨大你覺得呢\n\n02:43.909 --> 03:01.982\n感受也非常不好明明是我的錢為什麼被人家這樣騙走我要告訴你原因你聽過那種不要用經濟學的名詞所得不高的人就算損失金額不大佔比會影響他的生活如果我一個月只賺3萬元我被騙1萬5你說嚴不嚴重\n\n03:04.386 --> 03:04.586\n主席\n\n03:32.560 --> 03:33.320\n委員會主管列席報告\n\n04:02.305 --> 04:28.854\n兩個都要重視但是對於大多數的民眾來講我們更加要加以防範來保障他們的財產好那我們來看一看那接下來我們來看一下其實呢很大的問題在哪裡其實呢其實監警呢其實對民眾來講他要的倒不是說把他繩子依法把他關關到一輩子多數的被騙的人呢最想要的是把錢拿回來\n\n04:30.150 --> 04:36.634\n你覺得目前台灣被詐騙的錢拿得回來嗎?你所知道的生活經驗、社會經驗,多數民眾錢被騙了拿得回來嗎?那我就告訴你,你的感受跟一般民眾的感覺一樣\n\n04:49.155 --> 04:49.215\n主席\n\n05:11.735 --> 05:37.755\n然後接下來我們看看靈慧關懷主詐的跟我們追回的都很低但是隨著時間的成長我們看到了我們現在追回來的追回39億了這個還算不錯但你有沒有注意到靈慧關懷主詐的高達76億那表示什麼金融機構他看到民眾可能被詐騙他主卻不要讓他錢轉出去他的效果不錯\n\n05:39.036 --> 06:06.662\n但是我們被騙了把他追回來的只追回39億是不是還有成長空間是所以這樣了解的我們這個政府在鼓勵民眾及澳大利亞民眾試詐然後呢金融機構主詐然後呢後面還要打詐調查局檢警要打詐那我們法務部呢藉口學術同事反應懲詐但是最重要是什麼錢要追回來你同意嗎同意同意好那麼追回賬款為什麼比主詐還難呢你覺得\n\n06:09.468 --> 06:37.549\n因為他詐騙後的這些金額啊很快的就能夠轉出去啊是有斷點啊要追索很難啊對而且有很多是在境外對境外的話透過其他各國的合作了好你講到前兩點了轉手迅速路徑難以複雜難以追查還有一個很重要的就算是抓到了錢扣到了司法單位很難判斷這些扣到錢是誰的損失我自己的家人就遇到過\n\n06:38.930 --> 06:56.878\n被騙了後來一堆被害人去抓到了車手抓到帳戶帳戶的錢是誰的你有這個經驗嗎怎麼分怎麼證明這個錢這個大水庫裡面的錢是哪個小水池流過來的你了解了好那怎麼證明接下來我們看怎麼證明嫌患的電子錢包或帳戶裡面是贓款\n\n06:57.418 --> 07:14.926\n首先你要有金流要有交易的金額要有交易的時間但你要確認這個錢是跟誰騙的你要有對話的明細甚至取款的時候車子取款的時候ATM的提領的監視器畫面對不對我們要透過這些方式再有辦法追回彰款的時候明確的讓這些彰款回復到損失者的身上是不是這樣\n\n07:15.646 --> 07:16.966\n科技難以取得的資訊流,我們要如何上當追蹤?\n\n07:46.818 --> 07:59.885\n當然這科技要請教一些專家來協助我們那目前有哪些方法因為這科技的專門技術我還要再問一下我們同仁同仁在場有沒有人知道\n\n08:01.442 --> 08:23.296\n好那直接揭曉答案目前大概有這幾個目前透過小木馬監控手機才能取得罪證為什麼因為我說過你手機裡面你扣到手機它已經不見了所以必須即時的在犯罪嫌疑人手上植入俗稱的小木馬在他進行通訊的同時就同時取證那這裡面你要把這個小木馬植入釣魚的電子郵件或者利用\n\n08:23.916 --> 08:28.000\n那請問部長你知道這個方法嗎?有被採納嗎?因為所以我們知道這個方法是很有效所以在我們所草擬的科技偵查及保障法就要把他這個納進來\n\n08:49.360 --> 09:08.106\n但是目前這個是不被法院認為有證據能力的對不對因為還沒有立法對沒有立法嘛好那科技偵查我們來談一下今天我就很關心的是科技偵查法包括哪些的項目那這些項目有些是檢察官保留也是法官保留包括GPS這個可能比較大家可以接受M化車現在到處在跑\n\n09:08.866 --> 09:09.286\n李卓人議員\n\n09:32.162 --> 09:56.145\n那我想這個問題拉回來你覺得這些東西有沒有幫助我們去追張讓民眾取回損失的金額有沒有幫助絕對有幫助那法務部做了哪些努力我們現在就趕快立法讓他在採取這種作為的時候有法源的依據不會產生爭議但是相對有很多民眾會擔心\n\n09:57.566 --> 10:25.675\n科技偵查會侵犯他的隱私那這點法務部有什麼樣的應對我們採取最嚴格的審核所以大部分這邊所使用的方法都要經過法官的核准那除了科技偵查法之外除了法務部之外還需要哪些協助才能讓民眾取回賬款比如說金融機構協助管制人頭賬戶比如說FB這些社群網站要保留詐騙訊息這個是你法務部做得到的嗎\n\n10:27.516 --> 10:39.448\n法務部來協調啦,但是我知道有些金融機構啊,他可以採信說如果你證明這個錢是從你的戶頭匯過來的話那我很快的,這筆錢在這個所扣押的帳戶裡面可以證明說這個錢是從哪裡來的,我就很快的還給你\n\n10:46.075 --> 11:12.331\n所以你也知道民眾除了法務部協助去懲詐之外他們需要在偵辦的過程中跟其他機構的合作才能夠不然就是即時阻詐不然就是讓金流不要流到境外不然就是要在未來扣到賬款的時候能夠有效的拿回來需要其他部位的協助包括金融機構對不對那包括了像包括管制FB這種社群網站的這個主管機關對不對那有哪些機關\n\n11:13.995 --> 11:29.040\n包括NCC包括數位部包括金管會還有包括內政部很好那請問這些單位您在提科技章法的時候有沒有把科技章法裡面沒有辦法涵蓋的部分你有把這些需要協助的這樣整理出來呢\n\n11:30.011 --> 11:55.997\n他們這一部分是不放在科技偵查保障法但是我們高檢署有去協調這些執法單位那這些需求你們有整理出來了有好那我就這樣兩個第一請法務部盡速將科技偵查及保障法送立法院讓我們來滿足達成民眾需要懲詐打詐的這個目的好不好是什麼時候可以提出來我們已經提出已經送到行政院去審查但是還沒到我們這裡來好那請你們追溯第二\n\n11:56.497 --> 12:16.734\n那從法務部你從懲詐在打造的分工上你們法務部是懲詐但是你懲詐之外你需要其他部會的協助事項你說高檢署已經有整理了是可不可以在一定期間內送到我這裡來送到我們委員會來好大概多久一個月內不用那麼久了我們盡快就給你我們現在做的謝謝市委今天下半年就可以給我們了\n\n12:17.455 --> 12:26.746\n應該可以整理出來我會去審視是不是足夠有效來協助我們民眾讓政府不分各部會合力來打仗可以嗎可以好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.15,"end":0.977,"text":"嘉賓委員發言"},{"start":5.339,"end":28.61,"text":"主席、在場的委員、先進、列席的政府機關所長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體資訊先生那今天呢我想全民最關心的就是打詐那想蕭明遠萬事莫如打詐極但是打詐最重要的是張款要追回那另外呢我也認為要速力趕快速提柯真法還要各部會協力那我先來請教一下考考我們部長啊你對於這個詐騙的全球概況"},{"start":32.252,"end":55.603,"text":"在臺灣我們看到一個國外的統計資料在臺灣每個月會遇到一次詐騙的占比在全亞洲是第一名那意思是什麼我們每個月部長你這個月有沒有接到詐騙電話或詐騙的情勢我比較少你比較不是我說這個月這個月沒有還沒有還沒有那你是屬於那四分之三"},{"start":56.91,"end":82.052,"text":"我們大概四分之一的人每個月都會遇到詐騙的情況很多人都接到電話我不好意思問在場沒有接過詐騙騷擾的應該都有我這個星期也接到了好那我們來看一下那詐騙算嚴重嗎台灣但是你看一看以各國的金額來看台灣的財損金額是排第23名你覺得咧這怎麼樣台灣人被騙但是台灣人沒有那麼多錢嗎"},{"start":83.956,"end":87.801,"text":"你看到新加坡第一瑞士第二奧地利三你的觀感是怎麼樣"},{"start":89.724,"end":117.367,"text":"我們不能用這樣來覺得說我們值得慶幸但是真的是只要有財損我覺得我們就應該要努力的來防止部長的觀念正確其實我們看到這前幾名的國家很多是金融詐騙因為這些國家都是金融自由化相當高的國家國際化相當高的國家所以可能他們的詐騙是屬於一種專業型的犯罪在台灣相對金額少可是很多都是消費詐騙你同意嗎"},{"start":122.17,"end":144.54,"text":"其實對民眾來講雖然損失的金額相較其他國家不是最多但是經過調查有將近六成的民眾覺得六成的民眾是損失在一萬五千元部長你現在身上有沒有一萬五千元沒有那你跟我一樣加管研那麼損失一萬五千元可能對很多中高收入的人不算什麼"},{"start":145.168,"end":162.495,"text":"但是這雖然不到6成的民眾他們損失在15000以下但是將近7成的民眾認為這樣的損失對他們經濟產生顯著的影響你覺得是什麼原因損失的金額看起來不是很高可是為什麼民眾覺得影響很巨大你覺得呢"},{"start":163.909,"end":181.982,"text":"感受也非常不好明明是我的錢為什麼被人家這樣騙走我要告訴你原因你聽過那種不要用經濟學的名詞所得不高的人就算損失金額不大佔比會影響他的生活如果我一個月只賺3萬元我被騙1萬5你說嚴不嚴重"},{"start":184.386,"end":184.586,"text":"主席"},{"start":212.56,"end":213.32,"text":"委員會主管列席報告"},{"start":242.305,"end":268.854,"text":"兩個都要重視但是對於大多數的民眾來講我們更加要加以防範來保障他們的財產好那我們來看一看那接下來我們來看一下其實呢很大的問題在哪裡其實呢其實監警呢其實對民眾來講他要的倒不是說把他繩子依法把他關關到一輩子多數的被騙的人呢最想要的是把錢拿回來"},{"start":270.15,"end":276.634,"text":"你覺得目前台灣被詐騙的錢拿得回來嗎?你所知道的生活經驗、社會經驗,多數民眾錢被騙了拿得回來嗎?那我就告訴你,你的感受跟一般民眾的感覺一樣"},{"start":289.155,"end":289.215,"text":"主席"},{"start":311.735,"end":337.755,"text":"然後接下來我們看看靈慧關懷主詐的跟我們追回的都很低但是隨著時間的成長我們看到了我們現在追回來的追回39億了這個還算不錯但你有沒有注意到靈慧關懷主詐的高達76億那表示什麼金融機構他看到民眾可能被詐騙他主卻不要讓他錢轉出去他的效果不錯"},{"start":339.036,"end":366.662,"text":"但是我們被騙了把他追回來的只追回39億是不是還有成長空間是所以這樣了解的我們這個政府在鼓勵民眾及澳大利亞民眾試詐然後呢金融機構主詐然後呢後面還要打詐調查局檢警要打詐那我們法務部呢藉口學術同事反應懲詐但是最重要是什麼錢要追回來你同意嗎同意同意好那麼追回賬款為什麼比主詐還難呢你覺得"},{"start":369.468,"end":397.549,"text":"因為他詐騙後的這些金額啊很快的就能夠轉出去啊是有斷點啊要追索很難啊對而且有很多是在境外對境外的話透過其他各國的合作了好你講到前兩點了轉手迅速路徑難以複雜難以追查還有一個很重要的就算是抓到了錢扣到了司法單位很難判斷這些扣到錢是誰的損失我自己的家人就遇到過"},{"start":398.93,"end":416.878,"text":"被騙了後來一堆被害人去抓到了車手抓到帳戶帳戶的錢是誰的你有這個經驗嗎怎麼分怎麼證明這個錢這個大水庫裡面的錢是哪個小水池流過來的你了解了好那怎麼證明接下來我們看怎麼證明嫌患的電子錢包或帳戶裡面是贓款"},{"start":417.418,"end":434.926,"text":"首先你要有金流 要有交易的金額 要有交易的時間但你要確認這個錢是跟誰騙的 你要有對話的明細甚至取款的時候 車子取款的時候 ATM的提領的監視器畫面 對不對我們要透過這些方式 再有辦法追回彰款的時候明確的讓這些彰款回復到損失者的身上 是不是這樣"},{"start":435.646,"end":436.966,"text":"科技難以取得的資訊流,我們要如何上當追蹤?"},{"start":466.818,"end":479.885,"text":"當然這科技要請教一些專家來協助我們那目前有哪些方法因為這科技的專門技術我還要再問一下我們同仁同仁在場有沒有人知道"},{"start":481.442,"end":503.296,"text":"好那直接揭曉答案目前大概有這幾個目前透過小木馬監控手機才能取得罪證為什麼因為我說過你手機裡面你扣到手機它已經不見了所以必須即時的在犯罪嫌疑人手上植入俗稱的小木馬在他進行通訊的同時就同時取證那這裡面你要把這個小木馬植入釣魚的電子郵件或者利用"},{"start":503.916,"end":508,"text":"那請問部長你知道這個方法嗎?有被採納嗎?因為所以我們知道這個方法是很有效所以在我們所草擬的科技偵查及保障法就要把他這個納進來"},{"start":529.36,"end":548.106,"text":"但是目前這個是不被法院認為有證據能力的對不對因為還沒有立法對沒有立法嘛好那科技偵查我們來談一下今天我就很關心的是科技偵查法包括哪些的項目那這些項目有些是檢察官保留也是法官保留包括GPS這個可能比較大家可以接受M化車現在到處在跑"},{"start":548.866,"end":549.286,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":572.162,"end":596.145,"text":"那我想這個問題拉回來你覺得這些東西有沒有幫助我們去追張讓民眾取回損失的金額有沒有幫助絕對有幫助那法務部做了哪些努力我們現在就趕快立法讓他在採取這種作為的時候有法源的依據不會產生爭議但是相對有很多民眾會擔心"},{"start":597.566,"end":625.675,"text":"科技偵查會侵犯他的隱私那這點法務部有什麼樣的應對我們採取最嚴格的審核所以大部分這邊所使用的方法都要經過法官的核准那除了科技偵查法之外除了法務部之外還需要哪些協助才能讓民眾取回賬款比如說金融機構協助管制人頭賬戶比如說FB這些社群網站要保留詐騙訊息這個是你法務部做得到的嗎"},{"start":627.516,"end":639.448,"text":"法務部來協調啦,但是我知道有些金融機構啊,他可以採信說如果你證明這個錢是從你的戶頭匯過來的話那我很快的,這筆錢在這個所扣押的帳戶裡面可以證明說這個錢是從哪裡來的,我就很快的還給你"},{"start":646.075,"end":672.331,"text":"所以你也知道民眾除了法務部協助去懲詐之外他們需要在偵辦的過程中跟其他機構的合作才能夠不然就是即時阻詐不然就是讓金流不要流到境外不然就是要在未來扣到賬款的時候能夠有效的拿回來需要其他部位的協助包括金融機構對不對那包括了像包括管制FB這種社群網站的這個主管機關對不對那有哪些機關"},{"start":673.995,"end":689.04,"text":"包括NCC包括數位部包括金管會還有包括內政部很好那請問這些單位您在提科技章法的時候有沒有把科技章法裡面沒有辦法涵蓋的部分你有把這些需要協助的這樣整理出來呢"},{"start":690.011,"end":715.997,"text":"他們這一部分是不放在科技偵查保障法但是我們高檢署有去協調這些執法單位那這些需求你們有整理出來了有好那我就這樣兩個第一請法務部盡速將科技偵查及保障法送立法院讓我們來滿足達成民眾需要懲詐打詐的這個目的好不好是什麼時候可以提出來我們已經提出已經送到行政院去審查但是還沒到我們這裡來好那請你們追溯第二"},{"start":716.497,"end":736.734,"text":"那從法務部你從懲詐在打造的分工上你們法務部是懲詐但是你懲詐之外你需要其他部會的協助事項你說高檢署已經有整理了是可不可以在一定期間內送到我這裡來送到我們委員會來好大概多久一個月內不用那麼久了我們盡快就給你我們現在做的謝謝市委今天下半年就可以給我們了"},{"start":737.455,"end":746.746,"text":"應該可以整理出來我會去審視是不是足夠有效來協助我們民眾讓政府不分各部會合力來打仗可以嗎可以好 謝謝"}]}}}}