{"id":149470,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149470","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe5280b56c8f968decaaa95e40c3cff622f8ba9b0039caa7a637ae2d7d588d67db5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:01:48 - 10:14:34","影片長度":"00:12:46","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-4"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":766,"end_time":"2024-03-07T10:14:34+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T10:01:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1239,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時1分）謝謝主席。你讓我喘30秒，前面怎麼跳這麼多人？沒有……"],["主席：有好幾位沒有來，所以速度就比較快。"],["莊委員瑞雄：讓我喘5秒，好不好？謝謝召委。請法務部蔡部長。"],["蔡部長清祥：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我想在座好多人都是法學專家，我剛在辦公室稍微聽了一下其他委員的詢答，我覺得比較奇怪，其實有一些觀念還是要講清楚。司法及法制委員會現在進來一群瘋子，會搞到讓你們眉開眼笑，但是那些觀念你們還是要講清楚。如果死刑宣告到最後大法官釋憲是違憲，真的全部都馬上放出來，你是要嚇死我嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：不，我剛才有說不可能！"],["莊委員瑞雄：怎麼可能？開什麼玩笑！什麼打死四、五個人被判死刑，只因為大法官宣告違憲，然後這些本來判處死刑人就全部都放出來。那打死一個的不就說，當初多槍殺四、五個還享受優惠，馬上就放出來，不可能嘛！這就不可能嘛！就算大法官宣告違憲也不會變成……而是法官沒有再去適用判處死刑那個條文，不是說那些人變成無罪，這個觀念要先講清楚啊！","但是確實有一些問題，人權的確是與時俱進。檢察官依法偵查犯罪，法院也是依法在審判，這個法誰立的？立法院立的。哪怕大法官會議裡面宣告違憲，也有可能是往後不適用，對不對？也未必會去溯及。大法官是不是會前衛到這個地步？我不知道，但是確實值得法務部未雨綢繆。如果宣告違憲以後，接下來一段期間怎麼處置？","我今天反而要針對一些在野黨朋友提出的刑法修正案就教，他們說要增訂觸犯妨礙司法公正罪、不法關說罪跟棄保潛逃罪等相關條文。本席想在這邊請教部長，對於棄保潛逃罪，你們的立法計畫到底是怎麼樣？譬如在我的基本觀念裡面，第一個，我會覺得有沒有一罪兩罰的問題？第二個，要不要去設限哪一些罪名？我跟林思銘、召委等一下因為議事衝突而吵架、互推並受傷，我很忙啊！法官搞不好看到就覺得你們這些政治人物很討厭，還打架，不當人民的表率，在國會裡面還打架，全部都具保1萬塊，有可能啊！我來下這個處分，我敢啊！我就特別討厭你們這些立法委員，全部都1萬塊交保，那交保以後遇到要開會、遇到要出國或是怎樣，還是那個傳票寄到戶籍所在地，因為沒收到所以沒去，這樣我哪有棄保潛逃？我有可能連續兩次沒去，棄保潛逃，這也很怪，我不知道條文是怎麼樣規定，不過我第一個想法就是覺得這也好怪。第二個，如果是告訴乃論之罪，兩個人打架打完了，我確實沒去開庭，檢察官也起訴了，可是在一審我們和解了，告訴乃論之罪本來就可以撤回，那我又多了一個罪，這好怪！所以我覺得很奇怪。","我是簡單舉這樣的例子來做一個提醒，如果是對重大犯罪你要去抑制它，但是會不會你這個罪立出來以後，又會像我們前陣子頭痛醫頭、腳痛醫腳，我們這整個外役監的情況又會一樣，我犯了重罪想要跑，哪怕你有一個棄保潛逃罪，我哪會在乎你那個棄保潛逃罪，對不對？那會變成全部都是輕罪的，變成稍微會受到約束的又變成都是一些犯了輕罪的，有沒有這樣的可能？所以這個部分請部長來做一個說明，因為變成說這種罪名都牽扯到因果關係的問題，都有一個前面的罪才會導出後面所謂的棄保潛逃，如果你沒有去限縮的話，涉及到告訴乃論之罪的或者有一些輕罪的，這個情輕法重，到最後會不會變成立法會有不平衡、失衡的地方？這個是不是要斟酌一下？請部長回答。"],["蔡部長清祥：謝謝委員的關心，確實對於涉嫌犯罪被檢察官交保的人，我們就是希望他能夠按時出庭，接受檢察官或法官的偵查、審判，但是你如果沒有正當的理由然後棄保潛逃，當然第一個可能發生的效果就是他的交保金就會被沒收了。"],["莊委員瑞雄：當然。"],["蔡部長清祥：在沒收了以後是不是還要再處以刑事的責任，再另外加一個獨立的犯罪，這是值得思考的，因為要構成犯罪，我們一定要考慮它有沒有必要性，是不是能夠用其他的方法予以制裁，如果不行的話，最後才是採取刑罰的手段，我們要有一個謙抑性，因為學法律的人都有讀過刑法的謙抑性。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我們立法院現在在立法哪有什麼謙抑性？好像認為法律是萬能的，就一直把它加重、一直把它加重、一直把它加重。我從以前年輕在大學念書的時候，大家在讀刑法第一條的時候都說刑法有謙抑性，但是現在哪裡還有？現在一直全部把它加重，可是加重完真的有辦法去抑制整個犯罪嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：所以我們在定刑法的時候要非常的謹慎。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啊！以前我們在讀刑法，刑法從第一百零一條開始就是國家法益，過來是社會法益，再過來是財產犯罪，現在卻相反，現在就是民粹，老百姓的財產受到損害了，大家就很討厭、討厭、討厭，那財產犯罪的刑罰都一直加、一直加、一直加、一直加。也許過去的法學思維未必正確，現在的民粹才是對的也不一定，整個就顛覆掉了，但是這個顛覆常常都不是基於一個體系的思考，都是看到社會發生什麼事情就給它加重、加重、加重，其實都沒用啦！我記得在我剛開始當律師的時候，我有進去監獄看過裡面關的那些犯人，我講了好多次，當時是17%，現在你進去監獄裡面，我每次都問典獄長：你們這裡現在關的毒品犯有多少？都超過50%，所以我們就知道這個政策是不對的，甚至這個立法其實沒有辦法抑制整個犯罪，可是我們都用這樣的方式，所以這個值得思考，我不敢說不對啦！因為我們立法院其實全部都是共犯。"],["蔡部長清祥：委員，我再補充說明，除了刑法的處罰之外，對於棄保潛逃我們可以考慮用其他的方式，還是我們在修法之前也用電子監控的方式來防止他逃，所以對於需要的這些被告，我們檢察官、法官也會諭知要對他施予這種電子監控，就是要防逃嘛！"],["莊委員瑞雄：我反而覺得這比較合理，不要再多定一些罪名，好像大家都是定心安的，有了，法律完備了！只是讓檢察官忙死、讓法官忙死而已，我真的是這樣覺得，我講的是最極端的，到最後就是棄保潛逃了，在抓來以後，這個審判又很快，因為事實很明確，結果當初被具保的刑事犯罪被判無罪、判決確定，這樣更離譜，很有可能啊！因為是在判決還沒確定之前，在判決確定以後你跑掉被抓回來就是執行而已嘛！可是在判決還沒確定以前跑掉，多增加一個罪名，然後到最後法院判下來是無罪的，如果這樣立法，我都覺得我的腦袋瓜會短路。","我要請教部長關於整個職業運動的防賭機制怎麼樣讓它健全的問題，我在內政委員會一直提出質詢，就是希望內政部跟法務部積極來協助教育部、體育署或相關職業聯盟還有球團一起來共同改善整個制度和環境、看能不能提升，以避免打假球事件一直這樣頻繁的發生。以過去來看，主管機關在應對作為跟政策上，我倒覺得稍嫌單一性的應付，怎麼講呢？就是沒有一個比較健全的制度跟從養成教育上來做一個全盤的檢討。我舉例來說，目前管理比較類似運動博弈的就是運彩條例，那現行法的規範只能顧及到臺灣運彩有關開盤的賽事，所以像目前國內職籃的部分都不是運彩開盤的標的，這會不會是一個漏洞？所以想請教部長，雖然法務部不是這個部分的主管機關，但是最有偵辦經驗的其實就是你們，對現在的運動彩券發行條例你們有沒有發現可以再去補強的地方？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們很樂意來協助教育部或是其他部會，在我們查辦犯罪時，如果發現有一些行政措施可以做預先的防範，我們都很樂意，像職棒或是職籃……"],["莊委員瑞雄：職棒你們成功了，我覺得職棒有成功，但是職籃的部分呢？"],["蔡部長清祥：所以我們會複製這個職棒的經驗，希望在職籃也讓各個職籃的團體結合聯盟，給他們的球員一個教育，還有看在制度面上怎麼樣做比較完善，這個都已經在做了。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，我是覺得對於職棒的部分法務部也提供了那麼多的經驗，甚至於派專責檢察官或檢察事務官到球場去監賽，這當然可以保護選手，也讓整個賽事會比較公平。但是比較可惜的就是像部長講的，確實對我們職籃的部分要再加緊腳步，你看在去年發生的幾件簽賭案，甚至發生在已經成立21年半的SBL超級籃球聯賽裡面。所以我希望部長用這個成功的經驗對職籃的部分可以再去布署，不要再步上過去職棒這樣的後塵，你當年建置了這樣的防賭機制，那我看經歷過這幾個月跨部會的協商、研議以後，就像部長講的，把它複製上去，因為這個球賽是大家喜歡的，應該由法務部這邊來協助建立一個公平的環境，不然你對職棒做得好，對職籃卻做不好，我覺得沒有這個理由。"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：法務部防堵賭博罪的發生，我相信很多廣大的球迷都樂於見到，對法務部來講這也是功德。"],["蔡部長清祥：是，我們會來努力，我們會來加緊。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我們希望法務部可以再加緊去協助。"],["蔡部長清祥：好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，謝謝。"],["蔡部長清祥：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們接下來請林思銘委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-4","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","林思銘","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王世堅","黃珊珊","沈發惠","羅智強"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130901_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"149470","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149470","tool":"pyannote","id":"149470-pyannote"},"job_id":"k89eBbvGBnZ8701A","queued_at":"2024-06-02 09:13:43","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-02 09:15:31","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149470"},{"time":"2024-06-02 09:15:32","msg":"downloading https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe5280b56c8f968decaaa95e40c3cff62207ca735ce7365c3e8f8d39a9a32c997b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"},{"time":"2024-06-02 09:15:52","msg":"converting mp4 to wav"},{"time":"2024-06-02 09:15:54","msg":"running pyannote"},{"time":"2024-06-02 09:16:06","msg":"status: 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\"end\": 741.295, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 741.295, \"end\": 741.315, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,567 --> 00:00:27,341\n謝謝主席,好,你也給我串三十秒啊,剛才是怎麼跳那麼多人,沒有...就是有好幾位沒有來,所以就速度比較快我串五秒而已,謝謝召委,請我們法務部陳部長委員好部長,我想在座好多都是法學專家啦,我們社會法制委員會\n\n2\n00:00:29,546 --> 00:00:51,078\n我剛在辦公室我是稍微有聽了一下其他委員的一個詢答啦我是覺得比較奇怪啦其實有一些觀念還是要講清楚啦司法及法制委員會喔今晚一年少的會向你們報告你們吹笑白笑但是你們那些觀念還是要講清楚啦大法官事宪如果是死刑宣告到最後是違憲\n\n3\n00:00:53,444 --> 00:01:08,483\n真的是全部都馬上放出來嗎?你要怕死嗎?沒有辦法說嘛,不可能嘛不可能,什麼在開什麼玩笑,是要打死死亡的跟打死贏只因為大法官宣告說這個違憲,然後這些本來判處死刑人全部都放出來\n\n4\n00:01:11,014 --> 00:01:15,937\n不可能嘛這不可能嘛那個大法官就算是宣告是違憲也不是變成說那個那是死刑這個法官沒有再適用那個條文沒有再去適用不是說那些人變成無罪啊這個觀念要先講清楚啊但是啊確實有一些問題啦\n\n5\n00:01:35,739 --> 00:01:54,577\n不好意思假裝不是我的問題是跑樓梯的問題那就變成說這個人權確實是與時在俱進我們檢察官依法偵查犯罪法院其實也是依法在審判那是個法誰立的\n\n6\n00:01:56,035 --> 00:02:22,186\n立法院立的立法院立的哪怕大法官會議裡面先宣告違憲那也有可能是往後不適用嘛對不對也未必會去溯及啦大法官是不是會前衛到這個地步我不知道但是呢確實是值得去法務部未雨綢繆啦未雨綢繆那確實如果宣告違憲以後那接下來怎麼有一段期間的一個處置\n\n7\n00:02:23,530 --> 00:02:45,006\n那我今天反而要針對一些在黨的朋友提出的刑法的修正案他們說要徵定出犯妨礙司法公正罪不法關說罪跟棄保潛逃罪等相關的一個條文本席想在這邊請教部長就是說對於這個棄保潛逃罪你們立法的一個計畫裡面你們到底是怎麼樣\n\n8\n00:02:46,383 --> 00:03:09,294\n我先把它陳述完就說像譬如說在我的基本的觀念裡面我第一個我會覺得有沒有一罪兩罰的問題那第二個要不要去設限哪一些罪名我今天去跟林思敏跟趙薇反正當然要議事衝突、玩家、秀燕、受傷我沒辦法\n\n9\n00:03:10,785 --> 00:03:37,240\n法官搞不好看到你們這政治人物就很討厭還打架不當人民的表率在國會裡面還打架全部都拒保一萬塊有可能啊有可能啊我來下這個處分我敢啊我就特別討厭你們這些立法委員全部都一萬塊交保交保以後哇剛好要開會啊剛好要出國啊安裝啊啊或是你那個船票要寄到那個戶籍所在地啊沒收到沒去\n\n10\n00:03:47,161 --> 00:04:01,347\n這也怪我說我不知道條文是怎麼樣我第一個想法是覺得這也好怪第二個如果是告訴乃論之罪兩個人打架打完啦我真的確實沒去開庭啦講完也起訴啦可是一審我們和解啦告訴乃論之罪本來就可以撤回啊\n\n11\n00:04:06,874 --> 00:04:21,976\n那我又多了一個罪這好怪我是覺得很奇怪我是簡單舉這樣的一個例子來做一個提醒你說如果是重大犯罪你要去抑制他但是會不會你這個罪立出來以後\n\n12\n00:04:23,376 --> 00:04:36,945\n又會像我們前陣子啊頭痛醫頭腳痛醫腳我們這個整個外醫間的情況又會一樣啦重罪了我要跑的哪怕你有一個棄保潛逃罪我哪會在乎你那個棄保潛逃罪對不對那變成全部都是輕罪的賣了不要去的變成稍微會受到約束的又變成都是一些犯了輕罪的\n\n13\n00:04:49,059 --> 00:04:55,147\n有沒有這樣的一個可能所以這個部分我是不是這個是請部長來說做一個說明變成說這個這種罪名都牽扯到\n\n14\n00:05:02,213 --> 00:05:29,014\n因果關係的問題啊都會有一個前面的罪才會導出後面的一個所謂的棄保潛逃那如果你沒有去限縮的話涉及到告訴來論之罪的或者說有一些輕罪的這個輕輕法重這個盜罪會不會變成有立法會有不平衡失衡的地方這個是不是要斟酌一下請部長回答\n\n15\n00:05:30,115 --> 00:05:48,072\n謝謝委員的關心確實對於涉嫌犯罪被檢察官交保我們就是希望他能夠按時的出庭接受法官也好或檢察官的偵查審判但是你如果沒有正當的理由那棄保\n\n16\n00:05:48,872 --> 00:06:11,530\n前逃的話當然第一個他可能發生的效果就是他的這個交保金就會被沒收了當然沒收完了以後是不是還要再處以刑事的責任再另外加一個獨立的犯罪這是值得思考的因為要構成犯罪我們一定要考慮他是有沒有必要性是不是一定要能夠用其他的方法\n\n17\n00:06:12,090 --> 00:06:13,131\n立法院現在立法套什麼的遷移性他好像認為是法律萬能的\n\n18\n00:06:29,651 --> 00:06:47,106\n一直把他加重一直把他加重一直把他加重我就從以前我從年輕在大學念書的時候大家都說每個跌倒跌倒都說都在打刑罰都把刑罰有簽譽性怎麼會有一直全部把他加重加重完真的有辦法去抑制整個犯罪嗎\n\n19\n00:06:48,618 --> 00:06:59,288\n所以我們在定刑法的時候要非常的謹慎是啊以前我們在看你跟我他刑法你看一把空一條開始齁都開始為國家法益給你社會法益還給你財產犯罪現在都得病現在就是民粹老百姓的財產受害的喔大家討厭討厭討厭那財產犯罪都一直加一直加一直加一直加一直加\n\n20\n00:07:12,105 --> 00:07:30,308\n反而是把我們以前也許啦過去的法學思維未必正確啦現在才是對的現在的民粹對的也不一定了那整個是顛覆掉那這個顛覆常常都是不是有一個體系的一個思考都是看到社會發生什麼事情就給它加重加重加重都不好啦我記得我當時在做社會事務我當時在嬰兒監獄的時候當時在裡面管那些犯罪我講了好多次17%\n\n21\n00:07:41,937 --> 00:08:04,275\n現在你躲在監獄裏面,我每天都在電視上說,你這裡現在關於毒品的關於多少?都被撤回50%我們就知道這個是不對的,這個政策是不對的甚至這個立法其實沒有辦法抑制整個犯罪的可是我們都用這樣的方式,值得思考啦,我不敢說不對啦因為我們立法院其實全部都是共犯啦,但是我有一個問題喔\n\n22\n00:08:05,496 --> 00:08:30,993\n不過委員我再補充說明除了刑法對於棄保潛逃我們除了可以考慮用其他的處罰之外還是我們也在修法之前也用電子監控的方式來防止他逃所以對於說需要的這些被告我們檢察官法官也會預知說要給他施予這種電子監控就是要防逃我反而覺得這比較合理\n\n23\n00:08:31,713 --> 00:08:40,458\n不要再假定一些罪名,好像大家都定心安的有囉!法律完備了!無私檢察官,無私法官,這樣而已啦我真的這樣子覺得啦我講個最極端的啊,到最後是啊,棄保點頭啦抓來,這個審判又很快,事實很明確啊哇!刑事犯罪當初被拒保的無罪判決確定,還在喊\n\n24\n00:08:58,812 --> 00:09:10,632\n還有可能啊判決還沒確定自己你說判決確定以後你要照抓來抓回來就是執行而已嘛判決還沒確定以後多給你多增加一個罪名然後到最後法院判下來是無罪的\n\n25\n00:09:12,251 --> 00:09:36,598\n這個我都覺得老大我這樣立法我會受怕惦我要請教部長就是說最近的整個職業運動的一個防堵的一個機制怎麼樣讓他健全的問題我在內政委員會一直在提出諸詢就希望我們內政部跟法務部積極來共同來協助我們教育部體育署或相關職業聯盟這邊還有球團一起來共同改善整個制度的一個\n\n26\n00:09:37,998 --> 00:09:38,899\n主管機關在應對作為跟政策上我倒覺得稍嫌單一性的應付\n\n27\n00:09:53,709 --> 00:10:11,374\n就是沒有一個比較健全的制度跟養成上來養成教育上來做一個全盤的一個檢討我舉例就是說目前比較管理比較類似運動博弈的就是運採的一個條例那這裡面現行法的規範只能顧及到臺灣運採有關開盤的\n\n28\n00:10:15,336 --> 00:10:37,911\n所以像目前國內直攬的部分都不是運採開盤的標的會不會是一個漏洞所以請教部長就是說雖然法務部這個地方不是主管機關但是最有偵辦經驗的其實就是你們現在以運動採券發行條例裡面你們有沒有發現是不是可以再去把它補強的地方\n\n29\n00:10:39,393 --> 00:10:55,846\n我們很樂意來協助教育部或是其他部會如果對於我們查辦犯罪發現有一些行政措施可以做預先的防範我們都很樂意那像這個職棒或是職染職棒你們成功了我覺得職棒有成功\n\n30\n00:10:58,108 --> 00:11:15,183\n所以我們會複製職棒的經驗希望在職男也跟各個這些職男的團體讓他們結合聯盟給他們球員的一個教育還有制度面上怎麼樣做比較完善這個都已經在做了是\n\n31\n00:11:15,563 --> 00:11:25,511\n我是覺得說我們職棒的部分我們法務部這個地方我們也提供了那麼多的一個經驗甚至於派專責檢察官或檢察事務官到球場去監賽讓他這當然保護選手也讓整個賽事會比較公平\n\n32\n00:11:33,317 --> 00:11:53,573\n那就比較可惜了,像部長講的說我確實我們的職燃的部分要再加緊的一個腳步了你看去年發生的幾間的遷都案甚至是發生在已經成立21年半的這個SBL這個整個超級籃球賽裡面所以我希望部長我們家成功的經驗在職燃的部分\n\n33\n00:11:55,434 --> 00:12:20,214\n可以給他部署了不要再布上那個過去職棒這樣的一個後塵你當年建制這樣防堵的一個機制那我看經歷過這幾個跨部會的一個協商演繹以後就像部長講的給他複製上去因為這個球賽大家喜歡但是這個公平的環境我是覺得我們法務部家協助把它給建立\n\n34\n00:12:21,095 --> 00:12:21,315\n法務部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1567\t27341\t謝謝主席,好,你也給我串三十秒啊,剛才是怎麼跳那麼多人,沒有...就是有好幾位沒有來,所以就速度比較快我串五秒而已,謝謝召委,請我們法務部陳部長委員好部長,我想在座好多都是法學專家啦,我們社會法制委員會\n29546\t51078\t我剛在辦公室我是稍微有聽了一下其他委員的一個詢答啦我是覺得比較奇怪啦 其實有一些觀念還是要講清楚啦司法及法制委員會喔 今晚一年少的 會向你們報告 你們吹笑白笑但是你們那些觀念還是要講清楚啦大法官事宪如果是死刑 宣告到最後是違憲\n53444\t68483\t真的是全部都馬上放出來嗎?你要怕死嗎?沒有辦法說嘛,不可能嘛不可能,什麼在開什麼玩笑,是要打死死亡的跟打死贏只因為大法官宣告說這個違憲,然後這些本來判處死刑人全部都放出來\n71014\t75937\t不可能嘛 這不可能嘛 那個大法官就算是宣告是違憲也不是變成說 那個那是死刑 這個法官沒有再適用 那個條文沒有再去適用不是說那些人變成無罪啊 這個觀念要先講清楚啊但是啊 確實有一些問題啦\n95739\t114577\t不好意思 假裝不是我的問題 是跑樓梯的問題那就變成說 這個人權 確實是與時在俱進我們檢察官依法偵查犯罪法院其實也是依法在審判 那是個法誰立的\n116035\t142186\t立法院立的 立法院立的哪怕大法官會議裡面先宣告違憲那也有可能是往後不適用嘛 對不對也未必會去溯及啦大法官是不是會前衛到這個地步 我不知道但是呢 確實是值得去法務部未雨綢繆啦未雨綢繆那確實如果宣告違憲以後那接下來怎麼有一段期間的一個處置\n143530\t165006\t那我今天反而要針對一些在黨的朋友提出的刑法的修正案他們說要徵定出犯妨礙司法公正罪不法關說罪跟棄保潛逃罪等相關的一個條文本席想在這邊請教部長就是說對於這個棄保潛逃罪你們立法的一個計畫裡面你們到底是怎麼樣\n166383\t189294\t我先把它陳述完就說像譬如說在我的基本的觀念裡面我第一個我會覺得有沒有一罪兩罰的問題那第二個要不要去設限哪一些罪名我今天去跟林思敏跟趙薇反正當然要議事衝突、玩家、秀燕、受傷我沒辦法\n190785\t217240\t法官搞不好看到你們這政治人物就很討厭還打架不當人民的表率在國會裡面還打架全部都拒保一萬塊有可能啊有可能啊我來下這個處分我敢啊我就特別討厭你們這些立法委員全部都一萬塊交保交保以後 哇 剛好要開會啊剛好要出國啊 安裝啊啊 或是你那個船票要寄到那個戶籍所在地啊沒收到 沒去\n227161\t241347\t這也怪 我說我不知道條文是怎麼樣我第一個想法是覺得這也好怪第二個如果是告訴乃論之罪 兩個人打架打完啦我真的確實沒去開庭啦 講完也起訴啦可是一審我們和解啦告訴乃論之罪本來就可以撤回啊\n246874\t261976\t那我又多了一個罪這好怪我是覺得很奇怪我是簡單舉這樣的一個例子來做一個提醒你說如果是重大犯罪你要去抑制他但是會不會你這個罪立出來以後\n263376\t276945\t又會像我們前陣子啊頭痛醫頭腳痛醫腳我們這個整個外醫間的情況又會一樣啦重罪了我要跑的哪怕你有一個棄保潛逃罪我哪會在乎你那個棄保潛逃罪對不對那變成全部都是輕罪的賣了不要去的變成稍微會受到約束的又變成都是一些犯了輕罪的\n289059\t295147\t有沒有這樣的一個可能所以這個部分我是不是這個是請部長來說做一個說明變成說這個這種罪名都牽扯到\n302213\t329014\t因果關係的問題啊都會有一個前面的罪才會導出後面的一個所謂的棄保潛逃那如果你沒有去限縮的話涉及到告訴來論之罪的或者說有一些輕罪的這個輕輕法重這個盜罪會不會變成有立法會有不平衡失衡的地方這個是不是要斟酌一下請部長回答\n330115\t348072\t謝謝委員的關心確實對於涉嫌犯罪被檢察官交保我們就是希望他能夠按時的出庭接受法官也好或檢察官的偵查審判但是你如果沒有正當的理由那棄保\n348872\t371530\t前逃的話當然第一個他可能發生的效果就是他的這個交保金就會被沒收了當然沒收完了以後是不是還要再處以刑事的責任再另外加一個獨立的犯罪這是值得思考的因為要構成犯罪我們一定要考慮他是有沒有必要性是不是一定要能夠用其他的方法\n372090\t373131\t立法院現在立法套什麼的遷移性他好像認為是法律萬能的\n389651\t407106\t一直把他加重一直把他加重一直把他加重我就從以前我從年輕在大學念書的時候大家都說每個跌倒跌倒都說都在打刑罰都把刑罰有簽譽性怎麼會有一直全部把他加重加重完真的有辦法去抑制整個犯罪嗎\n408618\t419288\t所以我們在定刑法的時候要非常的謹慎是啊以前我們在看你跟我他刑法你看一把空一條開始齁 都開始為國家法益 給你社會法益還給你財產犯罪 現在都得病現在就是民粹 老百姓的財產受害的 喔 大家討厭討厭討厭那財產犯罪都一直加一直加一直加一直加一直加\n432105\t450308\t反而是把我們以前也許啦過去的法學思維未必正確啦現在才是對的現在的民粹對的也不一定了那整個是顛覆掉那這個顛覆常常都是不是有一個體系的一個思考都是看到社會發生什麼事情就給它加重加重加重都不好啦我記得我當時在做社會事務我當時在嬰兒監獄的時候當時在裡面管那些犯罪我講了好多次17%\n461937\t484275\t現在你躲在監獄裏面,我每天都在電視上說,你這裡現在關於毒品的關於多少?都被撤回50%我們就知道這個是不對的,這個政策是不對的甚至這個立法其實沒有辦法抑制整個犯罪的可是我們都用這樣的方式,值得思考啦,我不敢說不對啦因為我們立法院其實全部都是共犯啦,但是我有一個問題喔\n485496\t510993\t不過委員我再補充說明除了刑法對於棄保潛逃我們除了可以考慮用其他的處罰之外還是我們也在修法之前也用電子監控的方式來防止他逃所以對於說需要的這些被告我們檢察官法官也會預知說要給他施予這種電子監控就是要防逃我反而覺得這比較合理\n511713\t520458\t不要再假定一些罪名,好像大家都定心安的有囉!法律完備了!無私檢察官,無私法官,這樣而已啦我真的這樣子覺得啦我講個最極端的啊,到最後是啊,棄保點頭啦抓來,這個審判又很快,事實很明確啊哇!刑事犯罪當初被拒保的無罪判決確定,還在喊\n538812\t550632\t還有可能啊 判決還沒確定自己 你說判決確定以後 你要照 抓來抓回來就是執行而已嘛 判決還沒確定以後 多給你多增加一個罪名 然後到最後法院判下來是無罪的\n552251\t576598\t這個我都覺得老大我這樣立法我會受怕惦我要請教部長就是說最近的整個職業運動的一個防堵的一個機制怎麼樣讓他健全的問題我在內政委員會一直在提出諸詢就希望我們內政部跟法務部積極來共同來協助我們教育部體育署或相關職業聯盟這邊還有球團一起來共同改善整個制度的一個\n577998\t578899\t主管機關在應對作為跟政策上我倒覺得稍嫌單一性的應付\n593709\t611374\t就是沒有一個比較健全的制度跟養成上來養成教育上來做一個全盤的一個檢討我舉例就是說目前比較管理比較類似運動博弈的就是運採的一個條例那這裡面現行法的規範只能顧及到臺灣運採有關開盤的\n615336\t637911\t所以像目前國內直攬的部分都不是運採開盤的標的會不會是一個漏洞所以請教部長就是說雖然法務部這個地方不是主管機關但是最有偵辦經驗的其實就是你們現在以運動採券發行條例裡面你們有沒有發現是不是可以再去把它補強的地方\n639393\t655846\t我們很樂意來協助教育部或是其他部會如果對於我們查辦犯罪發現有一些行政措施可以做預先的防範我們都很樂意那像這個職棒或是職染職棒你們成功了我覺得職棒有成功\n658108\t675183\t所以我們會複製職棒的經驗希望在職男也跟各個這些職男的團體讓他們結合聯盟給他們球員的一個教育還有制度面上怎麼樣做比較完善這個都已經在做了是\n675563\t685511\t我是覺得說我們職棒的部分我們法務部這個地方我們也提供了那麼多的一個經驗甚至於派專責檢察官或檢察事務官到球場去監賽讓他這當然保護選手也讓整個賽事會比較公平\n693317\t713573\t那就比較可惜了,像部長講的說我確實我們的職燃的部分要再加緊的一個腳步了你看去年發生的幾間的遷都案甚至是發生在已經成立21年半的這個SBL這個整個超級籃球賽裡面所以我希望部長我們家成功的經驗在職燃的部分\n715434\t740214\t可以給他部署了不要再布上那個過去職棒這樣的一個後塵你當年建制這樣防堵的一個機制那我看經歷過這幾個跨部會的一個協商演繹以後就像部長講的給他複製上去因為這個球賽大家喜歡但是這個公平的環境我是覺得我們法務部家協助把它給建立\n741095\t741315\t法務部長\n","txt":"謝謝主席,好,你也給我串三十秒啊,剛才是怎麼跳那麼多人,沒有...就是有好幾位沒有來,所以就速度比較快我串五秒而已,謝謝召委,請我們法務部陳部長委員好部長,我想在座好多都是法學專家啦,我們社會法制委員會\n我剛在辦公室我是稍微有聽了一下其他委員的一個詢答啦我是覺得比較奇怪啦 其實有一些觀念還是要講清楚啦司法及法制委員會喔 今晚一年少的 會向你們報告 你們吹笑白笑但是你們那些觀念還是要講清楚啦大法官事宪如果是死刑 宣告到最後是違憲\n真的是全部都馬上放出來嗎?你要怕死嗎?沒有辦法說嘛,不可能嘛不可能,什麼在開什麼玩笑,是要打死死亡的跟打死贏只因為大法官宣告說這個違憲,然後這些本來判處死刑人全部都放出來\n不可能嘛 這不可能嘛 那個大法官就算是宣告是違憲也不是變成說 那個那是死刑 這個法官沒有再適用 那個條文沒有再去適用不是說那些人變成無罪啊 這個觀念要先講清楚啊但是啊 確實有一些問題啦\n不好意思 假裝不是我的問題 是跑樓梯的問題那就變成說 這個人權 確實是與時在俱進我們檢察官依法偵查犯罪法院其實也是依法在審判 那是個法誰立的\n立法院立的 立法院立的哪怕大法官會議裡面先宣告違憲那也有可能是往後不適用嘛 對不對也未必會去溯及啦大法官是不是會前衛到這個地步 我不知道但是呢 確實是值得去法務部未雨綢繆啦未雨綢繆那確實如果宣告違憲以後那接下來怎麼有一段期間的一個處置\n那我今天反而要針對一些在黨的朋友提出的刑法的修正案他們說要徵定出犯妨礙司法公正罪不法關說罪跟棄保潛逃罪等相關的一個條文本席想在這邊請教部長就是說對於這個棄保潛逃罪你們立法的一個計畫裡面你們到底是怎麼樣\n我先把它陳述完就說像譬如說在我的基本的觀念裡面我第一個我會覺得有沒有一罪兩罰的問題那第二個要不要去設限哪一些罪名我今天去跟林思敏跟趙薇反正當然要議事衝突、玩家、秀燕、受傷我沒辦法\n法官搞不好看到你們這政治人物就很討厭還打架不當人民的表率在國會裡面還打架全部都拒保一萬塊有可能啊有可能啊我來下這個處分我敢啊我就特別討厭你們這些立法委員全部都一萬塊交保交保以後 哇 剛好要開會啊剛好要出國啊 安裝啊啊 或是你那個船票要寄到那個戶籍所在地啊沒收到 沒去\n這也怪 我說我不知道條文是怎麼樣我第一個想法是覺得這也好怪第二個如果是告訴乃論之罪 兩個人打架打完啦我真的確實沒去開庭啦 講完也起訴啦可是一審我們和解啦告訴乃論之罪本來就可以撤回啊\n那我又多了一個罪這好怪我是覺得很奇怪我是簡單舉這樣的一個例子來做一個提醒你說如果是重大犯罪你要去抑制他但是會不會你這個罪立出來以後\n又會像我們前陣子啊頭痛醫頭腳痛醫腳我們這個整個外醫間的情況又會一樣啦重罪了我要跑的哪怕你有一個棄保潛逃罪我哪會在乎你那個棄保潛逃罪對不對那變成全部都是輕罪的賣了不要去的變成稍微會受到約束的又變成都是一些犯了輕罪的\n有沒有這樣的一個可能所以這個部分我是不是這個是請部長來說做一個說明變成說這個這種罪名都牽扯到\n因果關係的問題啊都會有一個前面的罪才會導出後面的一個所謂的棄保潛逃那如果你沒有去限縮的話涉及到告訴來論之罪的或者說有一些輕罪的這個輕輕法重這個盜罪會不會變成有立法會有不平衡失衡的地方這個是不是要斟酌一下請部長回答\n謝謝委員的關心確實對於涉嫌犯罪被檢察官交保我們就是希望他能夠按時的出庭接受法官也好或檢察官的偵查審判但是你如果沒有正當的理由那棄保\n前逃的話當然第一個他可能發生的效果就是他的這個交保金就會被沒收了當然沒收完了以後是不是還要再處以刑事的責任再另外加一個獨立的犯罪這是值得思考的因為要構成犯罪我們一定要考慮他是有沒有必要性是不是一定要能夠用其他的方法\n立法院現在立法套什麼的遷移性他好像認為是法律萬能的\n一直把他加重一直把他加重一直把他加重我就從以前我從年輕在大學念書的時候大家都說每個跌倒跌倒都說都在打刑罰都把刑罰有簽譽性怎麼會有一直全部把他加重加重完真的有辦法去抑制整個犯罪嗎\n所以我們在定刑法的時候要非常的謹慎是啊以前我們在看你跟我他刑法你看一把空一條開始齁 都開始為國家法益 給你社會法益還給你財產犯罪 現在都得病現在就是民粹 老百姓的財產受害的 喔 大家討厭討厭討厭那財產犯罪都一直加一直加一直加一直加一直加\n反而是把我們以前也許啦過去的法學思維未必正確啦現在才是對的現在的民粹對的也不一定了那整個是顛覆掉那這個顛覆常常都是不是有一個體系的一個思考都是看到社會發生什麼事情就給它加重加重加重都不好啦我記得我當時在做社會事務我當時在嬰兒監獄的時候當時在裡面管那些犯罪我講了好多次17%\n現在你躲在監獄裏面,我每天都在電視上說,你這裡現在關於毒品的關於多少?都被撤回50%我們就知道這個是不對的,這個政策是不對的甚至這個立法其實沒有辦法抑制整個犯罪的可是我們都用這樣的方式,值得思考啦,我不敢說不對啦因為我們立法院其實全部都是共犯啦,但是我有一個問題喔\n不過委員我再補充說明除了刑法對於棄保潛逃我們除了可以考慮用其他的處罰之外還是我們也在修法之前也用電子監控的方式來防止他逃所以對於說需要的這些被告我們檢察官法官也會預知說要給他施予這種電子監控就是要防逃我反而覺得這比較合理\n不要再假定一些罪名,好像大家都定心安的有囉!法律完備了!無私檢察官,無私法官,這樣而已啦我真的這樣子覺得啦我講個最極端的啊,到最後是啊,棄保點頭啦抓來,這個審判又很快,事實很明確啊哇!刑事犯罪當初被拒保的無罪判決確定,還在喊\n還有可能啊 判決還沒確定自己 你說判決確定以後 你要照 抓來抓回來就是執行而已嘛 判決還沒確定以後 多給你多增加一個罪名 然後到最後法院判下來是無罪的\n這個我都覺得老大我這樣立法我會受怕惦我要請教部長就是說最近的整個職業運動的一個防堵的一個機制怎麼樣讓他健全的問題我在內政委員會一直在提出諸詢就希望我們內政部跟法務部積極來共同來協助我們教育部體育署或相關職業聯盟這邊還有球團一起來共同改善整個制度的一個\n主管機關在應對作為跟政策上我倒覺得稍嫌單一性的應付\n就是沒有一個比較健全的制度跟養成上來養成教育上來做一個全盤的一個檢討我舉例就是說目前比較管理比較類似運動博弈的就是運採的一個條例那這裡面現行法的規範只能顧及到臺灣運採有關開盤的\n所以像目前國內直攬的部分都不是運採開盤的標的會不會是一個漏洞所以請教部長就是說雖然法務部這個地方不是主管機關但是最有偵辦經驗的其實就是你們現在以運動採券發行條例裡面你們有沒有發現是不是可以再去把它補強的地方\n我們很樂意來協助教育部或是其他部會如果對於我們查辦犯罪發現有一些行政措施可以做預先的防範我們都很樂意那像這個職棒或是職染職棒你們成功了我覺得職棒有成功\n所以我們會複製職棒的經驗希望在職男也跟各個這些職男的團體讓他們結合聯盟給他們球員的一個教育還有制度面上怎麼樣做比較完善這個都已經在做了是\n我是覺得說我們職棒的部分我們法務部這個地方我們也提供了那麼多的一個經驗甚至於派專責檢察官或檢察事務官到球場去監賽讓他這當然保護選手也讓整個賽事會比較公平\n那就比較可惜了,像部長講的說我確實我們的職燃的部分要再加緊的一個腳步了你看去年發生的幾間的遷都案甚至是發生在已經成立21年半的這個SBL這個整個超級籃球賽裡面所以我希望部長我們家成功的經驗在職燃的部分\n可以給他部署了不要再布上那個過去職棒這樣的一個後塵你當年建制這樣防堵的一個機制那我看經歷過這幾個跨部會的一個協商演繹以後就像部長講的給他複製上去因為這個球賽大家喜歡但是這個公平的環境我是覺得我們法務部家協助把它給建立\n法務部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.567 --> 00:27.341\n謝謝主席,好,你也給我串三十秒啊,剛才是怎麼跳那麼多人,沒有...就是有好幾位沒有來,所以就速度比較快我串五秒而已,謝謝召委,請我們法務部陳部長委員好部長,我想在座好多都是法學專家啦,我們社會法制委員會\n\n00:29.546 --> 00:51.078\n我剛在辦公室我是稍微有聽了一下其他委員的一個詢答啦我是覺得比較奇怪啦其實有一些觀念還是要講清楚啦司法及法制委員會喔今晚一年少的會向你們報告你們吹笑白笑但是你們那些觀念還是要講清楚啦大法官事宪如果是死刑宣告到最後是違憲\n\n00:53.444 --> 01:08.483\n真的是全部都馬上放出來嗎?你要怕死嗎?沒有辦法說嘛,不可能嘛不可能,什麼在開什麼玩笑,是要打死死亡的跟打死贏只因為大法官宣告說這個違憲,然後這些本來判處死刑人全部都放出來\n\n01:11.014 --> 01:15.937\n不可能嘛這不可能嘛那個大法官就算是宣告是違憲也不是變成說那個那是死刑這個法官沒有再適用那個條文沒有再去適用不是說那些人變成無罪啊這個觀念要先講清楚啊但是啊確實有一些問題啦\n\n01:35.739 --> 01:54.577\n不好意思假裝不是我的問題是跑樓梯的問題那就變成說這個人權確實是與時在俱進我們檢察官依法偵查犯罪法院其實也是依法在審判那是個法誰立的\n\n01:56.035 --> 02:22.186\n立法院立的立法院立的哪怕大法官會議裡面先宣告違憲那也有可能是往後不適用嘛對不對也未必會去溯及啦大法官是不是會前衛到這個地步我不知道但是呢確實是值得去法務部未雨綢繆啦未雨綢繆那確實如果宣告違憲以後那接下來怎麼有一段期間的一個處置\n\n02:23.530 --> 02:45.006\n那我今天反而要針對一些在黨的朋友提出的刑法的修正案他們說要徵定出犯妨礙司法公正罪不法關說罪跟棄保潛逃罪等相關的一個條文本席想在這邊請教部長就是說對於這個棄保潛逃罪你們立法的一個計畫裡面你們到底是怎麼樣\n\n02:46.383 --> 03:09.294\n我先把它陳述完就說像譬如說在我的基本的觀念裡面我第一個我會覺得有沒有一罪兩罰的問題那第二個要不要去設限哪一些罪名我今天去跟林思敏跟趙薇反正當然要議事衝突、玩家、秀燕、受傷我沒辦法\n\n03:10.785 --> 03:37.240\n法官搞不好看到你們這政治人物就很討厭還打架不當人民的表率在國會裡面還打架全部都拒保一萬塊有可能啊有可能啊我來下這個處分我敢啊我就特別討厭你們這些立法委員全部都一萬塊交保交保以後哇剛好要開會啊剛好要出國啊安裝啊啊或是你那個船票要寄到那個戶籍所在地啊沒收到沒去\n\n03:47.161 --> 04:01.347\n這也怪我說我不知道條文是怎麼樣我第一個想法是覺得這也好怪第二個如果是告訴乃論之罪兩個人打架打完啦我真的確實沒去開庭啦講完也起訴啦可是一審我們和解啦告訴乃論之罪本來就可以撤回啊\n\n04:06.874 --> 04:21.976\n那我又多了一個罪這好怪我是覺得很奇怪我是簡單舉這樣的一個例子來做一個提醒你說如果是重大犯罪你要去抑制他但是會不會你這個罪立出來以後\n\n04:23.376 --> 04:36.945\n又會像我們前陣子啊頭痛醫頭腳痛醫腳我們這個整個外醫間的情況又會一樣啦重罪了我要跑的哪怕你有一個棄保潛逃罪我哪會在乎你那個棄保潛逃罪對不對那變成全部都是輕罪的賣了不要去的變成稍微會受到約束的又變成都是一些犯了輕罪的\n\n04:49.059 --> 04:55.147\n有沒有這樣的一個可能所以這個部分我是不是這個是請部長來說做一個說明變成說這個這種罪名都牽扯到\n\n05:02.213 --> 05:29.014\n因果關係的問題啊都會有一個前面的罪才會導出後面的一個所謂的棄保潛逃那如果你沒有去限縮的話涉及到告訴來論之罪的或者說有一些輕罪的這個輕輕法重這個盜罪會不會變成有立法會有不平衡失衡的地方這個是不是要斟酌一下請部長回答\n\n05:30.115 --> 05:48.072\n謝謝委員的關心確實對於涉嫌犯罪被檢察官交保我們就是希望他能夠按時的出庭接受法官也好或檢察官的偵查審判但是你如果沒有正當的理由那棄保\n\n05:48.872 --> 06:11.530\n前逃的話當然第一個他可能發生的效果就是他的這個交保金就會被沒收了當然沒收完了以後是不是還要再處以刑事的責任再另外加一個獨立的犯罪這是值得思考的因為要構成犯罪我們一定要考慮他是有沒有必要性是不是一定要能夠用其他的方法\n\n06:12.090 --> 06:13.131\n立法院現在立法套什麼的遷移性他好像認為是法律萬能的\n\n06:29.651 --> 06:47.106\n一直把他加重一直把他加重一直把他加重我就從以前我從年輕在大學念書的時候大家都說每個跌倒跌倒都說都在打刑罰都把刑罰有簽譽性怎麼會有一直全部把他加重加重完真的有辦法去抑制整個犯罪嗎\n\n06:48.618 --> 06:59.288\n所以我們在定刑法的時候要非常的謹慎是啊以前我們在看你跟我他刑法你看一把空一條開始齁都開始為國家法益給你社會法益還給你財產犯罪現在都得病現在就是民粹老百姓的財產受害的喔大家討厭討厭討厭那財產犯罪都一直加一直加一直加一直加一直加\n\n07:12.105 --> 07:30.308\n反而是把我們以前也許啦過去的法學思維未必正確啦現在才是對的現在的民粹對的也不一定了那整個是顛覆掉那這個顛覆常常都是不是有一個體系的一個思考都是看到社會發生什麼事情就給它加重加重加重都不好啦我記得我當時在做社會事務我當時在嬰兒監獄的時候當時在裡面管那些犯罪我講了好多次17%\n\n07:41.937 --> 08:04.275\n現在你躲在監獄裏面,我每天都在電視上說,你這裡現在關於毒品的關於多少?都被撤回50%我們就知道這個是不對的,這個政策是不對的甚至這個立法其實沒有辦法抑制整個犯罪的可是我們都用這樣的方式,值得思考啦,我不敢說不對啦因為我們立法院其實全部都是共犯啦,但是我有一個問題喔\n\n08:05.496 --> 08:30.993\n不過委員我再補充說明除了刑法對於棄保潛逃我們除了可以考慮用其他的處罰之外還是我們也在修法之前也用電子監控的方式來防止他逃所以對於說需要的這些被告我們檢察官法官也會預知說要給他施予這種電子監控就是要防逃我反而覺得這比較合理\n\n08:31.713 --> 08:40.458\n不要再假定一些罪名,好像大家都定心安的有囉!法律完備了!無私檢察官,無私法官,這樣而已啦我真的這樣子覺得啦我講個最極端的啊,到最後是啊,棄保點頭啦抓來,這個審判又很快,事實很明確啊哇!刑事犯罪當初被拒保的無罪判決確定,還在喊\n\n08:58.812 --> 09:10.632\n還有可能啊判決還沒確定自己你說判決確定以後你要照抓來抓回來就是執行而已嘛判決還沒確定以後多給你多增加一個罪名然後到最後法院判下來是無罪的\n\n09:12.251 --> 09:36.598\n這個我都覺得老大我這樣立法我會受怕惦我要請教部長就是說最近的整個職業運動的一個防堵的一個機制怎麼樣讓他健全的問題我在內政委員會一直在提出諸詢就希望我們內政部跟法務部積極來共同來協助我們教育部體育署或相關職業聯盟這邊還有球團一起來共同改善整個制度的一個\n\n09:37.998 --> 09:38.899\n主管機關在應對作為跟政策上我倒覺得稍嫌單一性的應付\n\n09:53.709 --> 10:11.374\n就是沒有一個比較健全的制度跟養成上來養成教育上來做一個全盤的一個檢討我舉例就是說目前比較管理比較類似運動博弈的就是運採的一個條例那這裡面現行法的規範只能顧及到臺灣運採有關開盤的\n\n10:15.336 --> 10:37.911\n所以像目前國內直攬的部分都不是運採開盤的標的會不會是一個漏洞所以請教部長就是說雖然法務部這個地方不是主管機關但是最有偵辦經驗的其實就是你們現在以運動採券發行條例裡面你們有沒有發現是不是可以再去把它補強的地方\n\n10:39.393 --> 10:55.846\n我們很樂意來協助教育部或是其他部會如果對於我們查辦犯罪發現有一些行政措施可以做預先的防範我們都很樂意那像這個職棒或是職染職棒你們成功了我覺得職棒有成功\n\n10:58.108 --> 11:15.183\n所以我們會複製職棒的經驗希望在職男也跟各個這些職男的團體讓他們結合聯盟給他們球員的一個教育還有制度面上怎麼樣做比較完善這個都已經在做了是\n\n11:15.563 --> 11:25.511\n我是覺得說我們職棒的部分我們法務部這個地方我們也提供了那麼多的一個經驗甚至於派專責檢察官或檢察事務官到球場去監賽讓他這當然保護選手也讓整個賽事會比較公平\n\n11:33.317 --> 11:53.573\n那就比較可惜了,像部長講的說我確實我們的職燃的部分要再加緊的一個腳步了你看去年發生的幾間的遷都案甚至是發生在已經成立21年半的這個SBL這個整個超級籃球賽裡面所以我希望部長我們家成功的經驗在職燃的部分\n\n11:55.434 --> 12:20.214\n可以給他部署了不要再布上那個過去職棒這樣的一個後塵你當年建制這樣防堵的一個機制那我看經歷過這幾個跨部會的一個協商演繹以後就像部長講的給他複製上去因為這個球賽大家喜歡但是這個公平的環境我是覺得我們法務部家協助把它給建立\n\n12:21.095 --> 12:21.315\n法務部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.567,"end":27.341,"text":"謝謝主席,好,你也給我串三十秒啊,剛才是怎麼跳那麼多人,沒有...就是有好幾位沒有來,所以就速度比較快我串五秒而已,謝謝召委,請我們法務部陳部長委員好部長,我想在座好多都是法學專家啦,我們社會法制委員會"},{"start":29.546,"end":51.078,"text":"我剛在辦公室我是稍微有聽了一下其他委員的一個詢答啦我是覺得比較奇怪啦 其實有一些觀念還是要講清楚啦司法及法制委員會喔 今晚一年少的 會向你們報告 你們吹笑白笑但是你們那些觀念還是要講清楚啦大法官事宪如果是死刑 宣告到最後是違憲"},{"start":53.444,"end":68.483,"text":"真的是全部都馬上放出來嗎?你要怕死嗎?沒有辦法說嘛,不可能嘛不可能,什麼在開什麼玩笑,是要打死死亡的跟打死贏只因為大法官宣告說這個違憲,然後這些本來判處死刑人全部都放出來"},{"start":71.014,"end":75.937,"text":"不可能嘛 這不可能嘛 那個大法官就算是宣告是違憲也不是變成說 那個那是死刑 這個法官沒有再適用 那個條文沒有再去適用不是說那些人變成無罪啊 這個觀念要先講清楚啊但是啊 確實有一些問題啦"},{"start":95.739,"end":114.577,"text":"不好意思 假裝不是我的問題 是跑樓梯的問題那就變成說 這個人權 確實是與時在俱進我們檢察官依法偵查犯罪法院其實也是依法在審判 那是個法誰立的"},{"start":116.035,"end":142.186,"text":"立法院立的 立法院立的哪怕大法官會議裡面先宣告違憲那也有可能是往後不適用嘛 對不對也未必會去溯及啦大法官是不是會前衛到這個地步 我不知道但是呢 確實是值得去法務部未雨綢繆啦未雨綢繆那確實如果宣告違憲以後那接下來怎麼有一段期間的一個處置"},{"start":143.53,"end":165.006,"text":"那我今天反而要針對一些在黨的朋友提出的刑法的修正案他們說要徵定出犯妨礙司法公正罪不法關說罪跟棄保潛逃罪等相關的一個條文本席想在這邊請教部長就是說對於這個棄保潛逃罪你們立法的一個計畫裡面你們到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":166.383,"end":189.294,"text":"我先把它陳述完就說像譬如說在我的基本的觀念裡面我第一個我會覺得有沒有一罪兩罰的問題那第二個要不要去設限哪一些罪名我今天去跟林思敏跟趙薇反正當然要議事衝突、玩家、秀燕、受傷我沒辦法"},{"start":190.785,"end":217.24,"text":"法官搞不好看到你們這政治人物就很討厭還打架不當人民的表率在國會裡面還打架全部都拒保一萬塊有可能啊有可能啊我來下這個處分我敢啊我就特別討厭你們這些立法委員全部都一萬塊交保交保以後 哇 剛好要開會啊剛好要出國啊 安裝啊啊 或是你那個船票要寄到那個戶籍所在地啊沒收到 沒去"},{"start":227.161,"end":241.347,"text":"這也怪 我說我不知道條文是怎麼樣我第一個想法是覺得這也好怪第二個如果是告訴乃論之罪 兩個人打架打完啦我真的確實沒去開庭啦 講完也起訴啦可是一審我們和解啦告訴乃論之罪本來就可以撤回啊"},{"start":246.874,"end":261.976,"text":"那我又多了一個罪這好怪我是覺得很奇怪我是簡單舉這樣的一個例子來做一個提醒你說如果是重大犯罪你要去抑制他但是會不會你這個罪立出來以後"},{"start":263.376,"end":276.945,"text":"又會像我們前陣子啊頭痛醫頭腳痛醫腳我們這個整個外醫間的情況又會一樣啦重罪了我要跑的哪怕你有一個棄保潛逃罪我哪會在乎你那個棄保潛逃罪對不對那變成全部都是輕罪的賣了不要去的變成稍微會受到約束的又變成都是一些犯了輕罪的"},{"start":289.059,"end":295.147,"text":"有沒有這樣的一個可能所以這個部分我是不是這個是請部長來說做一個說明變成說這個這種罪名都牽扯到"},{"start":302.213,"end":329.014,"text":"因果關係的問題啊都會有一個前面的罪才會導出後面的一個所謂的棄保潛逃那如果你沒有去限縮的話涉及到告訴來論之罪的或者說有一些輕罪的這個輕輕法重這個盜罪會不會變成有立法會有不平衡失衡的地方這個是不是要斟酌一下請部長回答"},{"start":330.115,"end":348.072,"text":"謝謝委員的關心確實對於涉嫌犯罪被檢察官交保我們就是希望他能夠按時的出庭接受法官也好或檢察官的偵查審判但是你如果沒有正當的理由那棄保"},{"start":348.872,"end":371.53,"text":"前逃的話當然第一個他可能發生的效果就是他的這個交保金就會被沒收了當然沒收完了以後是不是還要再處以刑事的責任再另外加一個獨立的犯罪這是值得思考的因為要構成犯罪我們一定要考慮他是有沒有必要性是不是一定要能夠用其他的方法"},{"start":372.09,"end":373.131,"text":"立法院現在立法套什麼的遷移性他好像認為是法律萬能的"},{"start":389.651,"end":407.106,"text":"一直把他加重一直把他加重一直把他加重我就從以前我從年輕在大學念書的時候大家都說每個跌倒跌倒都說都在打刑罰都把刑罰有簽譽性怎麼會有一直全部把他加重加重完真的有辦法去抑制整個犯罪嗎"},{"start":408.618,"end":419.288,"text":"所以我們在定刑法的時候要非常的謹慎是啊以前我們在看你跟我他刑法你看一把空一條開始齁 都開始為國家法益 給你社會法益還給你財產犯罪 現在都得病現在就是民粹 老百姓的財產受害的 喔 大家討厭討厭討厭那財產犯罪都一直加一直加一直加一直加一直加"},{"start":432.105,"end":450.308,"text":"反而是把我們以前也許啦過去的法學思維未必正確啦現在才是對的現在的民粹對的也不一定了那整個是顛覆掉那這個顛覆常常都是不是有一個體系的一個思考都是看到社會發生什麼事情就給它加重加重加重都不好啦我記得我當時在做社會事務我當時在嬰兒監獄的時候當時在裡面管那些犯罪我講了好多次17%"},{"start":461.937,"end":484.275,"text":"現在你躲在監獄裏面,我每天都在電視上說,你這裡現在關於毒品的關於多少?都被撤回50%我們就知道這個是不對的,這個政策是不對的甚至這個立法其實沒有辦法抑制整個犯罪的可是我們都用這樣的方式,值得思考啦,我不敢說不對啦因為我們立法院其實全部都是共犯啦,但是我有一個問題喔"},{"start":485.496,"end":510.993,"text":"不過委員我再補充說明除了刑法對於棄保潛逃我們除了可以考慮用其他的處罰之外還是我們也在修法之前也用電子監控的方式來防止他逃所以對於說需要的這些被告我們檢察官法官也會預知說要給他施予這種電子監控就是要防逃我反而覺得這比較合理"},{"start":511.713,"end":520.458,"text":"不要再假定一些罪名,好像大家都定心安的有囉!法律完備了!無私檢察官,無私法官,這樣而已啦我真的這樣子覺得啦我講個最極端的啊,到最後是啊,棄保點頭啦抓來,這個審判又很快,事實很明確啊哇!刑事犯罪當初被拒保的無罪判決確定,還在喊"},{"start":538.812,"end":550.632,"text":"還有可能啊 判決還沒確定自己 你說判決確定以後 你要照 抓來抓回來就是執行而已嘛 判決還沒確定以後 多給你多增加一個罪名 然後到最後法院判下來是無罪的"},{"start":552.251,"end":576.598,"text":"這個我都覺得老大我這樣立法我會受怕惦我要請教部長就是說最近的整個職業運動的一個防堵的一個機制怎麼樣讓他健全的問題我在內政委員會一直在提出諸詢就希望我們內政部跟法務部積極來共同來協助我們教育部體育署或相關職業聯盟這邊還有球團一起來共同改善整個制度的一個"},{"start":577.998,"end":578.899,"text":"主管機關在應對作為跟政策上我倒覺得稍嫌單一性的應付"},{"start":593.709,"end":611.374,"text":"就是沒有一個比較健全的制度跟養成上來養成教育上來做一個全盤的一個檢討我舉例就是說目前比較管理比較類似運動博弈的就是運採的一個條例那這裡面現行法的規範只能顧及到臺灣運採有關開盤的"},{"start":615.336,"end":637.911,"text":"所以像目前國內直攬的部分都不是運採開盤的標的會不會是一個漏洞所以請教部長就是說雖然法務部這個地方不是主管機關但是最有偵辦經驗的其實就是你們現在以運動採券發行條例裡面你們有沒有發現是不是可以再去把它補強的地方"},{"start":639.393,"end":655.846,"text":"我們很樂意來協助教育部或是其他部會如果對於我們查辦犯罪發現有一些行政措施可以做預先的防範我們都很樂意那像這個職棒或是職染職棒你們成功了我覺得職棒有成功"},{"start":658.108,"end":675.183,"text":"所以我們會複製職棒的經驗希望在職男也跟各個這些職男的團體讓他們結合聯盟給他們球員的一個教育還有制度面上怎麼樣做比較完善這個都已經在做了是"},{"start":675.563,"end":685.511,"text":"我是覺得說我們職棒的部分我們法務部這個地方我們也提供了那麼多的一個經驗甚至於派專責檢察官或檢察事務官到球場去監賽讓他這當然保護選手也讓整個賽事會比較公平"},{"start":693.317,"end":713.573,"text":"那就比較可惜了,像部長講的說我確實我們的職燃的部分要再加緊的一個腳步了你看去年發生的幾間的遷都案甚至是發生在已經成立21年半的這個SBL這個整個超級籃球賽裡面所以我希望部長我們家成功的經驗在職燃的部分"},{"start":715.434,"end":740.214,"text":"可以給他部署了不要再布上那個過去職棒這樣的一個後塵你當年建制這樣防堵的一個機制那我看經歷過這幾個跨部會的一個協商演繹以後就像部長講的給他複製上去因為這個球賽大家喜歡但是這個公平的環境我是覺得我們法務部家協助把它給建立"},{"start":741.095,"end":741.315,"text":"法務部長"}]}}}}