{"id":149472,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149472","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe667a80cb9f26170a3ebf0b3ad7e91c05f8ba9b0039caa7a630ce0a0a2c2b230a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"10:06:45 - 10:17:36","影片長度":"00:10:51","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「電價調漲對產業、民生等衝擊研擬配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【3月4日、3月6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":651,"end_time":"2024-03-07T10:17:36+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T10:06:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":335,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（10時6分）謝謝主席，請王部長。"],["主席：請王部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，去年因為有選舉，所以我們的審議小組決定不漲價，今年因為敵不過台電一直的虧損，本席也要請教部長，剛剛大家都在說，今年是一定會漲了，雖然審議小組的會議還沒有確定，但是外面都已經在傳可能會漲到10%。本席想請教，如果漲到10%就能夠彌補虧損嗎？如果不能彌補虧損，要漲到多少才能彌補過來？"],["王部長美花：第一、去年其實有漲，在去年的4月漲了11%；第二、台電累積的虧損有3,800多億，我們是希望今年度是不是能夠損益兩平，如果要損益兩平，我們優先希望政府能夠補貼。"],["呂委員玉玲：要漲到多少才可以彌補虧損？這個總要精算啊！"],["王部長美花：這個就是一個調動的部分，所以我們優先看政府可以補貼多少，然後再來看損益兩平，看怎麼調整。"],["呂委員玉玲：政府要補貼多少？在2023年的時候，我們已經在特別預算裡面補了台電500億，2023到2024的公務預算也讓它增資了1,500億，加上2024預備要增資的1,000億，這總共已經補了3,000億，這都有數字在。所以我想請問部長，我們的漲價跟綠電有沒有關係？"],["王部長美花：我們最主要還是燃料成本大漲。"],["呂委員玉玲：現在我們的能源政策，燃煤還有天然氣就占了將近80%，這八成的材料都從國外進口，所以你剛剛也一直講就是因為國際局勢變遷，才讓我們進口的成本提高，所以能源政策的配比，你們有沒有要調整的？"],["王部長美花：第一、相關的燃煤改成燃氣，其實就讓碳排可以減少一半。"],["呂委員玉玲：這兩個加起來就占了八成。"],["王部長美花：是啦。"],["呂委員玉玲：燃氣50%、燃煤30%、綠電是20%，是不是？"],["王部長美花：目前綠電還沒有到20%，因為……"],["呂委員玉玲：你的目標是，所以你要延到2026年，現在綠電都還沒達到10%，是不是？"],["王部長美花：是，9.5%。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以現在的這些天然氣也好、燃煤也好，都從國外進口，所以我們的電價才一直漲嘛！"],["王部長美花：這個部分臺灣沒有產天然氣跟煤，這個是……"],["呂委員玉玲：那其他的綠電呢？我想請問一下，除了這些以外，你未來如果調整的話，是不是為了綠電要鋪路呢？"],["王部長美花：不是，綠電的部分，事實上現在已經越來越多的綠電直接賣給民間的業者，那這樣的話其實我們讓綠電的基礎已經有了，像太陽光電那個大的案場，賣給民間的部分加速得很快，所以事實上未來如果一直都賣給民間，我們就變成像譬如說屋頂型、小的……等等，我們台電來購買。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，本席在這邊要提醒你，現在我們每度電已經調高到快要3.95元，要4塊錢了，這就是5年的新高，所以說整個能源配比上，你的「532」還要這樣子繼續執行嗎？剛剛也都提到了你的綠電目標是20%，到現在8.95%而已，都達不到這個10%……"],["王部長美花：9.54……"],["呂委員玉玲：對不對？所以達不到10%的話，你未來還要調整到都要用綠電，為什麼本席要在這邊提醒你，就是說現在國際的情勢大家都要鼓勵用綠電，尤其歐洲跟美國國家，他們2030年所有半導體晶圓、整個產業鏈都要使用綠電，他們才拿得到訂單；如果說我們能源配比不做調整的話，未來我們的半導體、我們的晶圓、我們的護國神山群要怎麼樣去搶購這訂單？你綠電的配置、建置沒有完成的話，無形之中就讓我們這些廠商不得不出走到有綠電的國家去，這是讓我們認為非常擔心的部分耶！"],["王部長美花：委員剛才一直講這個綠電，像台積電加入RE100，他們也跟我們講他們的客戶一直希望他們加快來增加綠電，那RE100的綠電就是包括風、光、水力等等的這一些，所以我們確實要來增加綠電的發展……"],["呂委員玉玲：現在綠電的太陽能占比在你綠電的8.95%裡面，它的占比是差不多有45%，其他的水跟風占比將近是一半對一半，所以我們才會提醒未來這個綠電你要不要去做調整？這次的漲價到底跟綠電有沒有關係？"],["王部長美花：綠電原先是賣給台電的躉購多，沒有錯，但是未來這些綠電，包括像台積電……"],["呂委員玉玲：是躉購高，所以我們的成本就提高，所以你這次的漲價就跟綠電有關係啊！"],["王部長美花：不是，我剛才報告也有講，我們確實在去年度買的綠電是900億，沒有錯，但是這個900億跟台電去年的總支出成本是1兆，其實占不到10%。這個部分的綠電，第一個，各國都一樣，發展綠電一開始都用躉購的方式，讓它的產業可以發展起來，慢慢地未來都是賣給民間，直接是它去賣給民間了，所以現在包括很多躉購給台電的太陽光電也都跟台電分手，它轉賣給民間。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，你要瞭解，現在我們政府正是為了因應淨零排碳的趨勢，已經有提出了臺灣2050年淨零排碳的路徑跟策略的說明，希望在2050年的能源配比可以做一個大調整，尤其是再生能源，你們這邊就有提到再生能源要60%到70%，還有氫氣是9%到12%，火力是20%到27%，水力是1%，所以這是你們政府提出來的一個願景，你就必須調整，現在是2024，2050年就要做到啦！"],["王部長美花：是，那個是原來我們規劃的路徑圖，沒有錯。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以我剛剛跟部長所談的就是綠電的問題，還有能源配比要去做調整，就是你們自己提出來的，那為什麼說現在不行呢？"],["王部長美花：沒有，這個部分就是我們現在要朝這樣的目標趕快去努力。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你要朝這個目標，現在2024你的綠電達到8.95%而已，還沒有達到10%……"],["王部長美花：9.5……"],["呂委員玉玲：那你2050年要達到60%，這差了50%耶！你怎麼去做呢？"],["王部長美花：所以在這一個部分，譬如說我們20%的部分到2026嘛！後續的部分，我們其實都是在陸續盤點，怎麼樣來快速增加綠電的部分……"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，你的陸續速度要快一點，本席都提醒你，2030年歐洲、美國他們都希望我們整個半導體產業鏈的用電都要用綠電，所以我們要保住我們臺灣的護國神山群們都能夠留下來，而且台積電幾乎它的用電量是占我們所有台電發電的16.5%喔！"],["王部長美花：沒有、沒有……"],["呂委員玉玲：現在沒有用這麼多電嗎？"],["王部長美花：它現在目前應該是8%多，委員講的是所有的半導膿……"],["呂委員玉玲：所有啊！台電所有發電的量啦！"],["王部長美花：委員講的是……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以沒有錯嘛！"],["王部長美花：沒有，台積電一家公司的話，目前占我們的發電量是8%多，但是它確實占比有在增加，沒有錯。"],["呂委員玉玲：對，所以剛剛講的所有是百分之十六點多，台積電就8%多了，它就占了一半。它占了一半的話，如果照目前的綠電，我們的綠電也是8.95%，那這樣等於是整個台積電都拿走了，大山拿走了，那我們的一些小山呢？護國神山的這些小山群們呢？"],["王部長美花：沒有、沒有……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以部長，要趕快的讓我們的電能夠穩定，而且現在電價漲了，整個電價審議小組裡面，他們說不管是工業電、民生電沒有級距的統統要漲，那我們很擔心耶！只要電價一漲，萬物皆漲，如果漲了10%，那物價高漲的話，我們如何去穩定民生的所需呢？"],["王部長美花：我們在調整電價的時候，在過去兩次也都有非常注意民生物價的部分，所以臺灣這樣的漲法大概是全世界做的最細膩的一個方案，這個部分我們這一次也會注意相關的情形，然後提到審議會去讓他們參考。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以本席今天提醒，請你們要注意到未來的整個趨勢，不只是國際能源的問題，還有半導體所有需要用綠電的問題，我們所有建置要配合到半導體他們的發展。"],["王部長美花：有、有、有，一定。"],["呂委員玉玲：不然他們的出走會影響臺灣的經濟實力，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來我們請鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":250,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-2","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","邱志偉","陳超明","賴瑞隆","洪申翰","蔡易餘","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","王世堅","王鴻薇","黃國昌","羅智強","洪孟楷","王美惠","劉建國","牛煦庭","林俊憲"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130801_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「電價調漲對產業、民生等衝擊研擬配套措\n施」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130801_00004"}},"transcript":{"id":"149472","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149472","tool":"pyannote","id":"149472-pyannote"},"job_id":"W5Av5AAmOpgzWlvU","queued_at":"2024-06-02 09:13:38","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-02 09:13:38","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149472"},{"time":"2024-06-02 09:13:39","msg":"downloading 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00:01:17,114\n我們是希望說今年度是不是能夠損益兩平那損益兩平我們確實優先還是會希望政府能夠相關的補貼要漲到多少趴才會彌補虧損這個就是一個調動的部分所以我們優先看這個政府可以補貼多少然後再來看這個相關的損益兩平來看政府要補貼多少部長\n\n5\n00:01:43,439 --> 00:01:49,004\n在2023年的時候我們已經在這個特別預算裡面已經補了台電500億2023、2024的公務預算也讓他增資了1500加上2024的預備要增資的是1000這總共已經補了3000億\n\n6\n00:02:01,719 --> 00:02:21,159\n這個都有數字在這邊所以我想請問部長的就是說我們的漲價跟綠電有沒有關係我們最主要還是燃料的成本大漲的問題成本現在我們的能源政策裡面燃料再一個火力發電燃煤還有跟天然氣將近就佔了80%\n\n7\n00:02:22,941 --> 00:02:22,961\n韓國瑜\n\n8\n00:02:41,500 --> 00:02:49,931\n對於第一個相關的這個燃煤改成燃氣其實就讓碳排可以減少一半這兩個加起來就佔了八成啦你燃氣50%嘛那你燃煤30%綠電的話是20%\n\n9\n00:02:59,363 --> 00:03:04,325\n目前綠電還沒有到20%所以現在的這些我們燃天然氣也好燃煤也好都在國外進口所以我們的電價才要一直漲嗎?\n\n10\n00:03:21,047 --> 00:03:27,410\n這個部分台灣沒有產天然氣跟煤這個是那其他的綠電呢那我想請問一下除了這些以外你未來的會調整的話是不是為了綠電要鋪路呢不是那綠電的部分事實上現在已經越來越多的綠電直接賣給民間的業者那這樣的話其實我們讓綠電的這個基礎已經有了那他們其實像太陽光店那個大的案場\n\n11\n00:03:47,577 --> 00:03:47,597\n﹚呂玲\n\n12\n00:04:04,545 --> 00:04:04,565\n9.5次\n\n13\n00:04:26,644 --> 00:04:47,574\n所以達不到這個時段的話你未來還要調整到都要用綠電為什麼本席要在這邊提醒你就是說現在很多國際的情勢大家都要鼓勵用綠電尤其歐洲跟美國國家的話他們2030年他們還要使用所有的半導體晶圓的話這個整個產業鏈\n\n14\n00:04:49,915 --> 00:05:15,250\n都要使用這個綠電他們才拿得到訂單如果說我們的話這個能源配備還不做調整的話那未來我們的半導體我們的這個晶圓我們這個護國神山群啊要怎麼樣去搶購這訂單你說綠電的這個配置建制沒有完成的話你無形之中就讓我們這些廠商不得不出走到有綠電的國家去\n\n15\n00:05:16,190 --> 00:05:23,992\n這是讓我們非常認為社會擔心的部分欸所以委員剛才一直講這個綠電那所以像台積電他們加入RE100那他們也跟我們講那個他們的客戶一直希望他們加快來增加這個綠電那RE100的綠電就是包括這個風啊、光啊、水力等等的這些那所以我們確實這個要增加來綠電的發展\n\n16\n00:05:42,136 --> 00:06:04,391\n你現在的綠電的話你那個太陽能的話占比大概是在你綠電的8.95裡面它的占比是差不多有45其他的水跟風的話占比的話也在將近是一半對一半所以我們才會提醒說未來這個綠電你要不要去做調整那支持的漲價到底跟綠電有沒有關係\n\n17\n00:06:06,198 --> 00:06:11,161\n呂玲原先是賣給台電的短購多沒有錯但是未來這些綠電所以是短購高所以我們的成本就提高所以你這個漲價就跟綠電有關係不是我剛才報告也有講我們確實在去年度買的綠電是900億沒有錯但是這個900億跟台電去年的總支出成本是1兆\n\n18\n00:06:51,602 --> 00:06:54,403\n政府正式為了因應淨零排碳的趨勢已經提出了台灣2050年淨零排碳的路徑跟策略的說明希望在2050年的能源配比\n\n19\n00:07:34,406 --> 00:07:53,441\n是,那個是原來我們規劃的路徑圖沒有錯所以我剛剛跟部長所談的就是綠電的問題還有能源配比要去做調整就是你們自己提出來的啊那為什麼說現在不行呢沒有,那這個部分就是我們現在要朝這樣的目標趕快去努力的方向所以你要朝這個目標現在2024你的綠電的話達到8.95而已還沒有達到18那你2050年的話\n\n20\n00:08:01,647 --> 00:08:22,246\n你要達到60%這差了50%欸那你怎麼去做呢?所以在這個部分齁比如說我們這個20%的部分到2026嘛齁那後續的這個部分我們其實都是在陸續盤點怎麼樣來快速增加這個綠點的部分部長你的陸續速度要快一點本席都提醒你2030年\n\n21\n00:08:25,312 --> 00:08:44,004\n2020年歐洲美國他們都希望我們整個半導體的這個用電產業鏈都要用綠電所以我們要保住我們台灣的護國神山群們都能夠留下來而且台積電幾乎它的用電量是佔我們所有我們的台電發電的16.5%\n\n22\n00:08:46,926 --> 00:09:02,209\n沒有沒有他現在他目前現在應該是8%多目前是佔全委員講的是所有的辦公室所有啊所有的發電台積電所有的收進來的發電能量啊這沒有錯嘛沒有台積電一家公司的話目前佔我們的發電量是8%多但是他確實佔8%增加沒有錯\n\n23\n00:09:13,391 --> 00:09:32,853\n所以台積電剛剛講的所有是16點多趴那台積電就是8趴多了它是佔了一半它是佔了一半的話如果照目前的綠電的話我們的綠電也是8.95那這樣等於是整個台積電都拿走了那大山拿走了的話那我們的一些小山捏護國神山的這些小山群們呢所以部長\n\n24\n00:09:34,455 --> 00:10:00,455\n這要趕快的讓我們的電能夠穩定而且你現在的現在電價漲了你這個整個電價的審議小組裡面他們說不管是工業電、民生電通通沒有集聚的通通要漲讓我們很擔心欸你只要電價一漲萬物皆漲如果漲了10%的話那物價高漲的話我們如何去穩定我們大家民生的所需呢\n\n25\n00:10:01,435 --> 00:10:04,318\n我們在調整電價的時候在過去兩次也都有非常注意這個民生的部分、物價的部分所以相關的台灣大概這樣的漲法是全世界做的最細膩的一個方案那這個部分我們也會這一次也會注意相關的這個情形然後提到審議會去讓他們去參考\n\n26\n00:10:26,815 --> 00:10:44,745\n請注意到未來的趨勢不是國際能源的問題還有半導體需要用綠電的問題我們要所有建制要配合到這半導體的發展不然的話他們的出走會影響台灣的經濟實力好不好\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n289\t15564\t呂玉玲委員請做詢答謝謝主席 請王部長我們請王部長\n22004\t49779\t市長,在去年的時候因為有選舉所以我們的審議小組也決定說不漲價那今年因為敵不過台電一直的虧損那本席也要請教部長剛剛大家都在講說今年是一定會漲了雖然說審議小組他們會議還沒有確定但是外面都已經在傳了可能會漲到10%那本席想請教如果漲到10%\n51280\t52261\t昨年其實有漲所以去年在去年的4月漲了這個11%所以去年有漲那第二個對台電的這個部分我們確實因為累積的虧損3800多億\n73993\t77114\t我們是希望說今年度是不是能夠損益兩平那損益兩平我們確實優先還是會希望政府能夠相關的補貼要漲到多少趴才會彌補虧損這個就是一個調動的部分所以我們優先看這個政府可以補貼多少然後再來看這個相關的損益兩平來看政府要補貼多少部長\n103439\t109004\t在2023年的時候我們已經在這個特別預算裡面已經補了台電500億2023、2024的公務預算也讓他增資了1500加上2024的預備要增資的是1000這總共已經補了3000億\n121719\t141159\t這個都有數字在這邊所以我想請問部長的就是說我們的漲價跟綠電有沒有關係我們最主要還是燃料的成本大漲的問題成本現在我們的能源政策裡面燃料再一個火力發電燃煤還有跟天然氣將近就佔了80%\n142941\t142961\t韓國瑜\n161500\t169931\t對於第一個相關的這個燃煤改成燃氣其實就讓碳排可以減少一半這兩個加起來就佔了八成啦你燃氣50%嘛那你燃煤30%綠電的話是20%\n179363\t184325\t目前綠電還沒有到20%所以現在的這些我們燃天然氣也好燃煤也好都在國外進口所以我們的電價才要一直漲嗎?\n201047\t207410\t這個部分台灣沒有產天然氣跟煤這個是那其他的綠電呢那我想請問一下除了這些以外你未來的會調整的話是不是為了綠電要鋪路呢不是那綠電的部分事實上現在已經越來越多的綠電直接賣給民間的業者那這樣的話其實我們讓綠電的這個基礎已經有了那他們其實像太陽光店那個大的案場\n227577\t227597\t﹚呂玲\n244545\t244565\t9.5次\n266644\t287574\t所以達不到這個時段的話你未來還要調整到都要用綠電為什麼本席要在這邊提醒你就是說現在很多國際的情勢大家都要鼓勵用綠電尤其歐洲跟美國國家的話他們2030年他們還要使用所有的半導體晶圓的話這個整個產業鏈\n289915\t315250\t都要使用這個綠電他們才拿得到訂單如果說我們的話這個能源配備還不做調整的話那未來我們的半導體我們的這個晶圓我們這個護國神山群啊要怎麼樣去搶購這訂單你說綠電的這個配置建制沒有完成的話你無形之中就讓我們這些廠商不得不出走到有綠電的國家去\n316190\t323992\t這是讓我們非常認為社會擔心的部分欸所以委員剛才一直講這個綠電那所以像台積電他們加入RE100那他們也跟我們講那個他們的客戶一直希望他們加快來增加這個綠電那RE100的綠電就是包括這個風啊、光啊、水力等等的這些那所以我們確實這個要增加來綠電的發展\n342136\t364391\t你現在的綠電的話你那個太陽能的話占比大概是在你綠電的8.95裡面它的占比是差不多有45其他的水跟風的話占比的話也在將近是一半對一半所以我們才會提醒說未來這個綠電你要不要去做調整那支持的漲價到底跟綠電有沒有關係\n366198\t371161\t呂玲原先是賣給台電的短購多沒有錯但是未來這些綠電所以是短購高所以我們的成本就提高所以你這個漲價就跟綠電有關係不是我剛才報告也有講我們確實在去年度買的綠電是900億沒有錯但是這個900億跟台電去年的總支出成本是1兆\n387329\t411442\t﹗\n411602\t414403\t政府正式為了因應淨零排碳的趨勢已經提出了台灣2050年淨零排碳的路徑跟策略的說明希望在2050年的能源配比\n430128\t453814\t⋯⋯\n454406\t473441\t是,那個是原來我們規劃的路徑圖沒有錯所以我剛剛跟部長所談的就是綠電的問題還有能源配比要去做調整就是你們自己提出來的啊那為什麼說現在不行呢沒有,那這個部分就是我們現在要朝這樣的目標趕快去努力的方向所以你要朝這個目標現在2024你的綠電的話達到8.95而已還沒有達到18那你2050年的話\n481647\t502246\t你要達到60% 這差了50%欸 那你怎麼去做呢?所以在這個部分齁 比如說我們這個20%的部分到2026嘛齁 那後續的這個部分我們其實都是在陸續盤點怎麼樣來快速增加這個綠點的部分部長 你的陸續速度要快一點 本席都提醒你2030年\n505312\t524004\t2020年歐洲美國他們都希望我們整個半導體的這個用電產業鏈都要用綠電所以我們要保住我們台灣的護國神山群們都能夠留下來而且台積電幾乎它的用電量是佔我們所有我們的台電發電的16.5%\n526926\t542209\t沒有沒有他現在他目前現在應該是8%多目前是佔全委員講的是所有的辦公室所有啊所有的發電台積電所有的收進來的發電能量啊這沒有錯嘛沒有台積電一家公司的話目前佔我們的發電量是8%多但是他確實佔8%增加沒有錯\n553391\t572853\t所以台積電剛剛講的所有是16點多趴那台積電就是8趴多了它是佔了一半它是佔了一半的話如果照目前的綠電的話我們的綠電也是8.95那這樣等於是整個台積電都拿走了那大山拿走了的話那我們的一些小山捏護國神山的這些小山群們呢所以部長\n574455\t600455\t這要趕快的讓我們的電能夠穩定而且你現在的現在電價漲了你這個整個電價的審議小組裡面他們說不管是工業電、民生電通通沒有集聚的通通要漲讓我們很擔心欸你只要電價一漲萬物皆漲如果漲了10%的話那物價高漲的話我們如何去穩定我們大家民生的所需呢\n601435\t604318\t我們在調整電價的時候在過去兩次也都有非常注意這個民生的部分、物價的部分所以相關的台灣大概這樣的漲法是全世界做的最細膩的一個方案那這個部分我們也會這一次也會注意相關的這個情形然後提到審議會去讓他們去參考\n626815\t644745\t請注意到未來的趨勢不是國際能源的問題還有半導體需要用綠電的問題我們要所有建制要配合到這半導體的發展不然的話他們的出走會影響台灣的經濟實力好不好\n","txt":"呂玉玲委員請做詢答謝謝主席 請王部長我們請王部長\n市長,在去年的時候因為有選舉所以我們的審議小組也決定說不漲價那今年因為敵不過台電一直的虧損那本席也要請教部長剛剛大家都在講說今年是一定會漲了雖然說審議小組他們會議還沒有確定但是外面都已經在傳了可能會漲到10%那本席想請教如果漲到10%\n昨年其實有漲所以去年在去年的4月漲了這個11%所以去年有漲那第二個對台電的這個部分我們確實因為累積的虧損3800多億\n我們是希望說今年度是不是能夠損益兩平那損益兩平我們確實優先還是會希望政府能夠相關的補貼要漲到多少趴才會彌補虧損這個就是一個調動的部分所以我們優先看這個政府可以補貼多少然後再來看這個相關的損益兩平來看政府要補貼多少部長\n在2023年的時候我們已經在這個特別預算裡面已經補了台電500億2023、2024的公務預算也讓他增資了1500加上2024的預備要增資的是1000這總共已經補了3000億\n這個都有數字在這邊所以我想請問部長的就是說我們的漲價跟綠電有沒有關係我們最主要還是燃料的成本大漲的問題成本現在我們的能源政策裡面燃料再一個火力發電燃煤還有跟天然氣將近就佔了80%\n韓國瑜\n對於第一個相關的這個燃煤改成燃氣其實就讓碳排可以減少一半這兩個加起來就佔了八成啦你燃氣50%嘛那你燃煤30%綠電的話是20%\n目前綠電還沒有到20%所以現在的這些我們燃天然氣也好燃煤也好都在國外進口所以我們的電價才要一直漲嗎?\n這個部分台灣沒有產天然氣跟煤這個是那其他的綠電呢那我想請問一下除了這些以外你未來的會調整的話是不是為了綠電要鋪路呢不是那綠電的部分事實上現在已經越來越多的綠電直接賣給民間的業者那這樣的話其實我們讓綠電的這個基礎已經有了那他們其實像太陽光店那個大的案場\n﹚呂玲\n9.5次\n所以達不到這個時段的話你未來還要調整到都要用綠電為什麼本席要在這邊提醒你就是說現在很多國際的情勢大家都要鼓勵用綠電尤其歐洲跟美國國家的話他們2030年他們還要使用所有的半導體晶圓的話這個整個產業鏈\n都要使用這個綠電他們才拿得到訂單如果說我們的話這個能源配備還不做調整的話那未來我們的半導體我們的這個晶圓我們這個護國神山群啊要怎麼樣去搶購這訂單你說綠電的這個配置建制沒有完成的話你無形之中就讓我們這些廠商不得不出走到有綠電的國家去\n這是讓我們非常認為社會擔心的部分欸所以委員剛才一直講這個綠電那所以像台積電他們加入RE100那他們也跟我們講那個他們的客戶一直希望他們加快來增加這個綠電那RE100的綠電就是包括這個風啊、光啊、水力等等的這些那所以我們確實這個要增加來綠電的發展\n你現在的綠電的話你那個太陽能的話占比大概是在你綠電的8.95裡面它的占比是差不多有45其他的水跟風的話占比的話也在將近是一半對一半所以我們才會提醒說未來這個綠電你要不要去做調整那支持的漲價到底跟綠電有沒有關係\n呂玲原先是賣給台電的短購多沒有錯但是未來這些綠電所以是短購高所以我們的成本就提高所以你這個漲價就跟綠電有關係不是我剛才報告也有講我們確實在去年度買的綠電是900億沒有錯但是這個900億跟台電去年的總支出成本是1兆\n﹗\n政府正式為了因應淨零排碳的趨勢已經提出了台灣2050年淨零排碳的路徑跟策略的說明希望在2050年的能源配比\n⋯⋯\n是,那個是原來我們規劃的路徑圖沒有錯所以我剛剛跟部長所談的就是綠電的問題還有能源配比要去做調整就是你們自己提出來的啊那為什麼說現在不行呢沒有,那這個部分就是我們現在要朝這樣的目標趕快去努力的方向所以你要朝這個目標現在2024你的綠電的話達到8.95而已還沒有達到18那你2050年的話\n你要達到60% 這差了50%欸 那你怎麼去做呢?所以在這個部分齁 比如說我們這個20%的部分到2026嘛齁 那後續的這個部分我們其實都是在陸續盤點怎麼樣來快速增加這個綠點的部分部長 你的陸續速度要快一點 本席都提醒你2030年\n2020年歐洲美國他們都希望我們整個半導體的這個用電產業鏈都要用綠電所以我們要保住我們台灣的護國神山群們都能夠留下來而且台積電幾乎它的用電量是佔我們所有我們的台電發電的16.5%\n沒有沒有他現在他目前現在應該是8%多目前是佔全委員講的是所有的辦公室所有啊所有的發電台積電所有的收進來的發電能量啊這沒有錯嘛沒有台積電一家公司的話目前佔我們的發電量是8%多但是他確實佔8%增加沒有錯\n所以台積電剛剛講的所有是16點多趴那台積電就是8趴多了它是佔了一半它是佔了一半的話如果照目前的綠電的話我們的綠電也是8.95那這樣等於是整個台積電都拿走了那大山拿走了的話那我們的一些小山捏護國神山的這些小山群們呢所以部長\n這要趕快的讓我們的電能夠穩定而且你現在的現在電價漲了你這個整個電價的審議小組裡面他們說不管是工業電、民生電通通沒有集聚的通通要漲讓我們很擔心欸你只要電價一漲萬物皆漲如果漲了10%的話那物價高漲的話我們如何去穩定我們大家民生的所需呢\n我們在調整電價的時候在過去兩次也都有非常注意這個民生的部分、物價的部分所以相關的台灣大概這樣的漲法是全世界做的最細膩的一個方案那這個部分我們也會這一次也會注意相關的這個情形然後提到審議會去讓他們去參考\n請注意到未來的趨勢不是國際能源的問題還有半導體需要用綠電的問題我們要所有建制要配合到這半導體的發展不然的話他們的出走會影響台灣的經濟實力好不好\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.289 --> 00:15.564\n呂玉玲委員請做詢答謝謝主席請王部長我們請王部長\n\n00:22.004 --> 00:49.779\n市長,在去年的時候因為有選舉所以我們的審議小組也決定說不漲價那今年因為敵不過台電一直的虧損那本席也要請教部長剛剛大家都在講說今年是一定會漲了雖然說審議小組他們會議還沒有確定但是外面都已經在傳了可能會漲到10%那本席想請教如果漲到10%\n\n00:51.280 --> 00:52.261\n昨年其實有漲所以去年在去年的4月漲了這個11%所以去年有漲那第二個對台電的這個部分我們確實因為累積的虧損3800多億\n\n01:13.993 --> 01:17.114\n我們是希望說今年度是不是能夠損益兩平那損益兩平我們確實優先還是會希望政府能夠相關的補貼要漲到多少趴才會彌補虧損這個就是一個調動的部分所以我們優先看這個政府可以補貼多少然後再來看這個相關的損益兩平來看政府要補貼多少部長\n\n01:43.439 --> 01:49.004\n在2023年的時候我們已經在這個特別預算裡面已經補了台電500億2023、2024的公務預算也讓他增資了1500加上2024的預備要增資的是1000這總共已經補了3000億\n\n02:01.719 --> 02:21.159\n這個都有數字在這邊所以我想請問部長的就是說我們的漲價跟綠電有沒有關係我們最主要還是燃料的成本大漲的問題成本現在我們的能源政策裡面燃料再一個火力發電燃煤還有跟天然氣將近就佔了80%\n\n02:22.941 --> 02:22.961\n韓國瑜\n\n02:41.500 --> 02:49.931\n對於第一個相關的這個燃煤改成燃氣其實就讓碳排可以減少一半這兩個加起來就佔了八成啦你燃氣50%嘛那你燃煤30%綠電的話是20%\n\n02:59.363 --> 03:04.325\n目前綠電還沒有到20%所以現在的這些我們燃天然氣也好燃煤也好都在國外進口所以我們的電價才要一直漲嗎?\n\n03:21.047 --> 03:27.410\n這個部分台灣沒有產天然氣跟煤這個是那其他的綠電呢那我想請問一下除了這些以外你未來的會調整的話是不是為了綠電要鋪路呢不是那綠電的部分事實上現在已經越來越多的綠電直接賣給民間的業者那這樣的話其實我們讓綠電的這個基礎已經有了那他們其實像太陽光店那個大的案場\n\n03:47.577 --> 03:47.597\n﹚呂玲\n\n04:04.545 --> 04:04.565\n9.5次\n\n04:26.644 --> 04:47.574\n所以達不到這個時段的話你未來還要調整到都要用綠電為什麼本席要在這邊提醒你就是說現在很多國際的情勢大家都要鼓勵用綠電尤其歐洲跟美國國家的話他們2030年他們還要使用所有的半導體晶圓的話這個整個產業鏈\n\n04:49.915 --> 05:15.250\n都要使用這個綠電他們才拿得到訂單如果說我們的話這個能源配備還不做調整的話那未來我們的半導體我們的這個晶圓我們這個護國神山群啊要怎麼樣去搶購這訂單你說綠電的這個配置建制沒有完成的話你無形之中就讓我們這些廠商不得不出走到有綠電的國家去\n\n05:16.190 --> 05:23.992\n這是讓我們非常認為社會擔心的部分欸所以委員剛才一直講這個綠電那所以像台積電他們加入RE100那他們也跟我們講那個他們的客戶一直希望他們加快來增加這個綠電那RE100的綠電就是包括這個風啊、光啊、水力等等的這些那所以我們確實這個要增加來綠電的發展\n\n05:42.136 --> 06:04.391\n你現在的綠電的話你那個太陽能的話占比大概是在你綠電的8.95裡面它的占比是差不多有45其他的水跟風的話占比的話也在將近是一半對一半所以我們才會提醒說未來這個綠電你要不要去做調整那支持的漲價到底跟綠電有沒有關係\n\n06:06.198 --> 06:11.161\n呂玲原先是賣給台電的短購多沒有錯但是未來這些綠電所以是短購高所以我們的成本就提高所以你這個漲價就跟綠電有關係不是我剛才報告也有講我們確實在去年度買的綠電是900億沒有錯但是這個900億跟台電去年的總支出成本是1兆\n\n06:51.602 --> 06:54.403\n政府正式為了因應淨零排碳的趨勢已經提出了台灣2050年淨零排碳的路徑跟策略的說明希望在2050年的能源配比\n\n07:34.406 --> 07:53.441\n是,那個是原來我們規劃的路徑圖沒有錯所以我剛剛跟部長所談的就是綠電的問題還有能源配比要去做調整就是你們自己提出來的啊那為什麼說現在不行呢沒有,那這個部分就是我們現在要朝這樣的目標趕快去努力的方向所以你要朝這個目標現在2024你的綠電的話達到8.95而已還沒有達到18那你2050年的話\n\n08:01.647 --> 08:22.246\n你要達到60%這差了50%欸那你怎麼去做呢?所以在這個部分齁比如說我們這個20%的部分到2026嘛齁那後續的這個部分我們其實都是在陸續盤點怎麼樣來快速增加這個綠點的部分部長你的陸續速度要快一點本席都提醒你2030年\n\n08:25.312 --> 08:44.004\n2020年歐洲美國他們都希望我們整個半導體的這個用電產業鏈都要用綠電所以我們要保住我們台灣的護國神山群們都能夠留下來而且台積電幾乎它的用電量是佔我們所有我們的台電發電的16.5%\n\n08:46.926 --> 09:02.209\n沒有沒有他現在他目前現在應該是8%多目前是佔全委員講的是所有的辦公室所有啊所有的發電台積電所有的收進來的發電能量啊這沒有錯嘛沒有台積電一家公司的話目前佔我們的發電量是8%多但是他確實佔8%增加沒有錯\n\n09:13.391 --> 09:32.853\n所以台積電剛剛講的所有是16點多趴那台積電就是8趴多了它是佔了一半它是佔了一半的話如果照目前的綠電的話我們的綠電也是8.95那這樣等於是整個台積電都拿走了那大山拿走了的話那我們的一些小山捏護國神山的這些小山群們呢所以部長\n\n09:34.455 --> 10:00.455\n這要趕快的讓我們的電能夠穩定而且你現在的現在電價漲了你這個整個電價的審議小組裡面他們說不管是工業電、民生電通通沒有集聚的通通要漲讓我們很擔心欸你只要電價一漲萬物皆漲如果漲了10%的話那物價高漲的話我們如何去穩定我們大家民生的所需呢\n\n10:01.435 --> 10:04.318\n我們在調整電價的時候在過去兩次也都有非常注意這個民生的部分、物價的部分所以相關的台灣大概這樣的漲法是全世界做的最細膩的一個方案那這個部分我們也會這一次也會注意相關的這個情形然後提到審議會去讓他們去參考\n\n10:26.815 --> 10:44.745\n請注意到未來的趨勢不是國際能源的問題還有半導體需要用綠電的問題我們要所有建制要配合到這半導體的發展不然的話他們的出走會影響台灣的經濟實力好不好\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.289,"end":15.564,"text":"呂玉玲委員請做詢答謝謝主席 請王部長我們請王部長"},{"start":22.004,"end":49.779,"text":"市長,在去年的時候因為有選舉所以我們的審議小組也決定說不漲價那今年因為敵不過台電一直的虧損那本席也要請教部長剛剛大家都在講說今年是一定會漲了雖然說審議小組他們會議還沒有確定但是外面都已經在傳了可能會漲到10%那本席想請教如果漲到10%"},{"start":51.28,"end":52.261,"text":"昨年其實有漲所以去年在去年的4月漲了這個11%所以去年有漲那第二個對台電的這個部分我們確實因為累積的虧損3800多億"},{"start":73.993,"end":77.114,"text":"我們是希望說今年度是不是能夠損益兩平那損益兩平我們確實優先還是會希望政府能夠相關的補貼要漲到多少趴才會彌補虧損這個就是一個調動的部分所以我們優先看這個政府可以補貼多少然後再來看這個相關的損益兩平來看政府要補貼多少部長"},{"start":103.439,"end":109.004,"text":"在2023年的時候我們已經在這個特別預算裡面已經補了台電500億2023、2024的公務預算也讓他增資了1500加上2024的預備要增資的是1000這總共已經補了3000億"},{"start":121.719,"end":141.159,"text":"這個都有數字在這邊所以我想請問部長的就是說我們的漲價跟綠電有沒有關係我們最主要還是燃料的成本大漲的問題成本現在我們的能源政策裡面燃料再一個火力發電燃煤還有跟天然氣將近就佔了80%"},{"start":142.941,"end":142.961,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":161.5,"end":169.931,"text":"對於第一個相關的這個燃煤改成燃氣其實就讓碳排可以減少一半這兩個加起來就佔了八成啦你燃氣50%嘛那你燃煤30%綠電的話是20%"},{"start":179.363,"end":184.325,"text":"目前綠電還沒有到20%所以現在的這些我們燃天然氣也好燃煤也好都在國外進口所以我們的電價才要一直漲嗎?"},{"start":201.047,"end":207.41,"text":"這個部分台灣沒有產天然氣跟煤這個是那其他的綠電呢那我想請問一下除了這些以外你未來的會調整的話是不是為了綠電要鋪路呢不是那綠電的部分事實上現在已經越來越多的綠電直接賣給民間的業者那這樣的話其實我們讓綠電的這個基礎已經有了那他們其實像太陽光店那個大的案場"},{"start":227.577,"end":227.597,"text":"﹚呂玲"},{"start":244.545,"end":244.565,"text":"9.5次"},{"start":266.644,"end":287.574,"text":"所以達不到這個時段的話你未來還要調整到都要用綠電為什麼本席要在這邊提醒你就是說現在很多國際的情勢大家都要鼓勵用綠電尤其歐洲跟美國國家的話他們2030年他們還要使用所有的半導體晶圓的話這個整個產業鏈"},{"start":289.915,"end":315.25,"text":"都要使用這個綠電他們才拿得到訂單如果說我們的話這個能源配備還不做調整的話那未來我們的半導體我們的這個晶圓我們這個護國神山群啊要怎麼樣去搶購這訂單你說綠電的這個配置建制沒有完成的話你無形之中就讓我們這些廠商不得不出走到有綠電的國家去"},{"start":316.19,"end":323.992,"text":"這是讓我們非常認為社會擔心的部分欸所以委員剛才一直講這個綠電那所以像台積電他們加入RE100那他們也跟我們講那個他們的客戶一直希望他們加快來增加這個綠電那RE100的綠電就是包括這個風啊、光啊、水力等等的這些那所以我們確實這個要增加來綠電的發展"},{"start":342.136,"end":364.391,"text":"你現在的綠電的話你那個太陽能的話占比大概是在你綠電的8.95裡面它的占比是差不多有45其他的水跟風的話占比的話也在將近是一半對一半所以我們才會提醒說未來這個綠電你要不要去做調整那支持的漲價到底跟綠電有沒有關係"},{"start":366.198,"end":371.161,"text":"呂玲原先是賣給台電的短購多沒有錯但是未來這些綠電所以是短購高所以我們的成本就提高所以你這個漲價就跟綠電有關係不是我剛才報告也有講我們確實在去年度買的綠電是900億沒有錯但是這個900億跟台電去年的總支出成本是1兆"},{"start":387.329,"end":411.442,"text":"﹗"},{"start":411.602,"end":414.403,"text":"政府正式為了因應淨零排碳的趨勢已經提出了台灣2050年淨零排碳的路徑跟策略的說明希望在2050年的能源配比"},{"start":430.128,"end":453.814,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":454.406,"end":473.441,"text":"是,那個是原來我們規劃的路徑圖沒有錯所以我剛剛跟部長所談的就是綠電的問題還有能源配比要去做調整就是你們自己提出來的啊那為什麼說現在不行呢沒有,那這個部分就是我們現在要朝這樣的目標趕快去努力的方向所以你要朝這個目標現在2024你的綠電的話達到8.95而已還沒有達到18那你2050年的話"},{"start":481.647,"end":502.246,"text":"你要達到60% 這差了50%欸 那你怎麼去做呢?所以在這個部分齁 比如說我們這個20%的部分到2026嘛齁 那後續的這個部分我們其實都是在陸續盤點怎麼樣來快速增加這個綠點的部分部長 你的陸續速度要快一點 本席都提醒你2030年"},{"start":505.312,"end":524.004,"text":"2020年歐洲美國他們都希望我們整個半導體的這個用電產業鏈都要用綠電所以我們要保住我們台灣的護國神山群們都能夠留下來而且台積電幾乎它的用電量是佔我們所有我們的台電發電的16.5%"},{"start":526.926,"end":542.209,"text":"沒有沒有他現在他目前現在應該是8%多目前是佔全委員講的是所有的辦公室所有啊所有的發電台積電所有的收進來的發電能量啊這沒有錯嘛沒有台積電一家公司的話目前佔我們的發電量是8%多但是他確實佔8%增加沒有錯"},{"start":553.391,"end":572.853,"text":"所以台積電剛剛講的所有是16點多趴那台積電就是8趴多了它是佔了一半它是佔了一半的話如果照目前的綠電的話我們的綠電也是8.95那這樣等於是整個台積電都拿走了那大山拿走了的話那我們的一些小山捏護國神山的這些小山群們呢所以部長"},{"start":574.455,"end":600.455,"text":"這要趕快的讓我們的電能夠穩定而且你現在的現在電價漲了你這個整個電價的審議小組裡面他們說不管是工業電、民生電通通沒有集聚的通通要漲讓我們很擔心欸你只要電價一漲萬物皆漲如果漲了10%的話那物價高漲的話我們如何去穩定我們大家民生的所需呢"},{"start":601.435,"end":604.318,"text":"我們在調整電價的時候在過去兩次也都有非常注意這個民生的部分、物價的部分所以相關的台灣大概這樣的漲法是全世界做的最細膩的一個方案那這個部分我們也會這一次也會注意相關的這個情形然後提到審議會去讓他們去參考"},{"start":626.815,"end":644.745,"text":"請注意到未來的趨勢不是國際能源的問題還有半導體需要用綠電的問題我們要所有建制要配合到這半導體的發展不然的話他們的出走會影響台灣的經濟實力好不好"}]}}}}