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10:05:31","影片長度":"00:09:05","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":545,"end_time":"2024-03-07T10:05:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T09:56:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":230,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（9時56分）謝謝主席，我們請唐部長。"],["主席：請唐部長。"],["唐部長鳳：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：部長好。我想剛剛經歷了兩個天才的對決，非常的精彩，我們繼續下去。數發部當初成立的時候有幾個重大的責任，包含強化數位基礎建設、協助企業數位轉型及打造更高層級的國安聯防體系。這是當初的幾個重大目標，但是這三大政策目標，坦白講對民眾來講距離有點遙遠，包含我自己當立法委員，把它唸完之後，我還是不知道數位部要怎麼樣落實或是具體有哪些政策能夠做到。去年有一個網路媒體針對「數位部成立一年了，你滿意這個單位的表現嗎？」發起網路投票，有四萬多人參與，結果顯示有80%的民眾認為非常不滿意，甚至有8%的網友認為不知道有數位部或是不知道數位部在做什麼。我想這個對數位部來講也是一個委屈，誠如部長一開始講的，數位部很多的業務的確沒辦法一開始一蹴可幾，而且這是一個首創部會。","我要問部長一件事情，剛剛葛委員也提到類似的概念，其實我一直很想問部長，到底數位部對自己的定位，在政府的體系裡面你們是一個怎麼樣的角色？你們是扮演一個溝通協調的角色，還是是協助各部會來解決它數位問題的角色？"],["唐部長鳳：謝謝委員，首先剛剛提到的那個應該是中時電子報YouTube頻道，那當然對我們很關心，不過那個並不是真正的民意調查。"],["黃委員健豪：對！我說非正式調查。"],["唐部長鳳：對，取樣方法不同，但是確實像這樣子的數字也告訴我們，我們對於這些分眾都要更好的溝通，舉例來說，像最近電子簽章法的溝通，我們就是先從假投資詐騙廣告怎麼樣來預防，以防詐的這個概念來溝通，而不是一下子就跳去講什麼演算法、公開金鑰，那個當然就太過技術了。確實委員勉勵的是很對的，就是我們是快速看到民怨在哪裡，哪些方法用舊的方法好像已經難以解決，我們要快速的創新，這裡面當然就有協調各部會的部分，但這個快速、多元的創新才是我們的根本。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝部長。我們看下一頁，為什麼我要特別提到你們到底在整個政府系統的定位是什麼？我想今天所有委員都很在意的就是所謂詐騙的問題，數位部在剛成立的時候，我先講前提，我不會說詐騙案件是因為你們所以才有這樣結果，但是民眾也期待會因為數位部的成立，詐騙案件能夠有相對的減少。但是從貴部111年成立到現在，111年當年的統計數字是2,600多件，到了113年，也就是今年初的1月，當然中間過程起起伏伏，這當然是整個臺灣社會的問題，但是有一年這個數字突然往上飆升之後就再也沒有下去了，從這個曲線圖看得很清楚，對比111年8月到現在為止，我想整個臺灣詐騙的成長比例高達30%到40%，所以我們期待數位部要去做防詐的部分，包含你剛剛提到的電子簽章法、數位簽章法，的確，部長那時候來辦公室談的時候也提到希望透過這個數位簽章法能夠解決詐騙的問題。"],["唐部長鳳：是。"],["黃委員健豪：對於數位簽章法的部分，我們是很肯定你們積極在推動打詐措施，但是我們要問的一件事情是，就像你剛剛提到的，這個跟印鑑證明是類似的概念，就是把傳統的印鑑證明數位化變成數位簽章，這要用什麼樣的技術？區塊鏈嗎？"],["唐部長鳳：我們現在是用所謂的非對稱加密技術，區塊鏈的那個簽章也是用同一個技術，所以您可以說是用區塊鏈等級的技術，這沒有問題，但是我們目前的區塊鏈比較不是像印鑑證明，比較像公證人，所以如果你簽了一個電子文件，你想要公示給所有人看到，而且是各國都要看到，這個時候用公共區塊鏈是很有用，但是光是簽的這件事情不是區塊鏈。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，就剛剛你提到的部分，如果是用這種技術來講，未來被偽造的機會相對比較低？"],["唐部長鳳：對，就大幅減低，因為最主要的還是有一個人別確認的過程，就是有人會真的去驗你是不是叫這個名字，如果以自然人憑證來講的話是戶政事務所當面來驗證。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，那我要跟你分享民間的擔憂是什麼，就算我們今天不談數位問題，我們單談紙本的問題，一般的人頭帳戶或所謂的存摺、印章、證件等等都可能被偽造，都可能有人頭帳戶的情況出現，轉型成數位之後難道就不會有這個問題嗎？你們在技術上面要怎麼樣做到這個部分？"],["唐部長鳳：對，我想我們在技術上是可以確保不被偽造，但是如果有人自己提供出去或者被騙出去給別人使用，這個問題當然不是純粹的技術問題嘛，這是一個社會上的犯罪問題，但是我們現在也透過一個聯防機制，就是如果真的發生這種他的數位簽章、他的憑證被別人拿走了，拿去簽了，那他在這個平台被發現，我們就會透過跟165及所有相關的數位產業來通報，這樣他在別的平台投擲廣告之後就可以同時來下架。"],["黃委員健豪：好，提到投擲平台，部長那時候來拜會時也講過，三大平台你們未來也是要推動相關數位簽章的部分，但是我要提個重點，前二天路透社的報導，今天我看到國內也有中文媒體的報導，就是澳洲政府跟Meta公司已經槓上了，因為他們針對澳洲政府的一些相關政策不買單，未來如果我們對於所謂的三大平台，包含Google、Meta還有其他的公司，如果我們對這種國際跨國企業也是提供相關的法令，但他們如果不買單的話，數位部有什麼樣的對策？這部分已經開始進行溝通協調了嗎？"],["唐部長鳳：有的、有的，像我去京都的時候就跟Meta的Nick Clegg，就是他們的VP專門來討論這個問題，我用20秒，就是這裡面有一個很重要的就是，整份新聞不一定是投到Meta上，現在因為有生成式AI，他可以是取那個新聞的意思，但是把它變成一首歌、一個短片……"],["黃委員健豪：你講的是新聞內容，我現在不是提新聞內容，我剛剛提的是說，比如澳洲政府訂定了相關法令，希望Meta要來付費嘛……"],["唐部長鳳：對，它說用新聞內容就要議價。"],["黃委員健豪：就是政府對這種跨國企業有相關法令產生了，包含這次你提到希望對三大平台有所管制，它下廣告或相關的業務範圍也需要經過我們政府的同意嘛！"],["唐部長鳳：是的。"],["黃委員健豪：如果它未來不同意這件事情的話，我們的溝通機制是什麼？"],["唐部長鳳：首先，我剛剛在講的是未來式，因為這一刻他們的主管機關還在經濟部，但是經濟部已經同意把這些大型網路廣告業變成由我們主管，等這件事情發生，電子簽章法也三讀通過，我們就多了很多方式可以來採用。當然我們現在也有參與內政部的打詐專法，我們也會在裡面，包含大家很關心的境外在國內沒有設代理人的這些大型廣告平台，我們能不能要求它設代理人等等，這個我們都有在進行。"],["黃委員健豪：對啊，因為像Meta前二天也在講這個事情，就是未來它要結束所謂代理制的行銷合作機會，所以未來在Meta下廣告，比如詐騙集團直接在海外執行相關的業務，然後投放到臺灣地區這邊的廣告，請問數位部怎麼去認證所謂數位簽章這件事情？"],["唐部長鳳：對，所以包含跨國的數位簽章互認，這個是我們經貿談判非常重要的一點。另外就是設定代理人之後，也要給這些平台一個連帶責任，像現在投擲廣告，如果有人被騙了，而且我們可以證明是因為Facebook24小時沒下架造成的，他被騙多少，Facebook要賠多少喔，所以這部分的作法我們會持續跟相關機關一起來做。"],["黃委員健豪：我想不管是數位簽章法還是電子簽章法，現在對民眾來講，我們對數位部最重要的期待就是去防堵所謂的網路詐騙，對NCC是電信詐騙，對數位部我們期待的是防堵所謂的網路詐騙，所以你們送進來的電子簽章法或數位簽章法，我們也希望未來在這個法案的立法過程裡面，你們能夠去加強與強調比如剛剛提到的，未來對其他的跨國科技公司要怎麼去約束？如果它不同意被我們約束的時候，你的談判溝通機制是什麼？我覺得這也要跟立法院來說明，這樣子等於也是對民眾來說明，讓大家相信我們推了這個法案之後，才能夠真正解決所謂這種廣告詐騙的問題，不然過去也都說要管理啊，有很多管理方式啊，但是人家就不買單，甚至我們臺灣政府在面對這種跨國企業時，多數時候是沒有制裁能力的，所以這部分未來要怎麼解決，我們希望數位部在新的法案裡面，如果真的把這個權力移交給你，你們要能夠提出相關的作法。"],["唐部長鳳：好，這個我們責無旁貸。謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝。"],["主席：黃委員發言完畢，接下來是魯明哲委員發言。","在這邊做個宣告，林俊憲委員發言完畢之後休息10分鐘，請黨團告知其他委員，以便他們安排時間。","請魯委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","徐富癸","林國成","許智傑","葛如鈞","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳素月","林俊憲","邱若華","蔡其昌","廖先翔","謝衣鳯","游顥","林沛祥","何欣純","徐巧芯","羅智強","李坤城","陳冠廷","黃珊珊","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","劉建國","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭"],"page_start":349,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就\n「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130901_00005"}},"transcript":{"id":"149482","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149482","tool":"pyannote","id":"149482-pyannote"},"job_id":"6GwlAuG7xZCltUHb","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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537.566, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 537.566, \"end\": 537.726, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 537.726, \"end\": 537.986, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"決\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 537.986, \"end\": 538.126, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 538.126, \"end\": 538.226, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 538.226, \"end\": 538.487, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 538.487, \"end\": 538.567, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 538.567, \"end\": 538.687, \"score\": 0.714}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 538.687, \"end\": 538.867, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 538.867, \"end\": 538.987, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 538.987, \"end\": 539.147, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 539.147, \"end\": 539.267, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 539.267, \"end\": 539.467, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 539.467, \"end\": 539.727, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 539.727, \"end\": 539.847, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 539.847, \"end\": 539.947, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 539.947, \"end\": 540.047, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 540.047, \"end\": 540.147, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 540.147, \"end\": 540.647, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"利\", \"start\": 540.647, \"end\": 540.827, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"移\", \"start\": 540.827, \"end\": 540.947, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 540.947, \"end\": 541.247, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 541.247, \"end\": 541.567, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 541.567, \"end\": 541.767, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 541.767, \"end\": 541.867, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 541.867, \"end\": 542.067, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 542.067, \"end\": 542.167, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 542.167, \"end\": 542.247, \"score\": 0.724}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 542.247, \"end\": 542.487, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 542.487, \"end\": 542.587, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 542.587, \"end\": 542.767, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 542.767, \"end\": 543.147, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 543.147, \"end\": 543.388, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"責\"}, {\"word\": \"無\", \"start\": 543.388, \"end\": 543.728, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"旁\", \"start\": 543.728, \"end\": 543.748, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"貸\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,009 --> 00:00:01,910\n請唐部長部長好我想剛剛經歷了這兩個天才的這個對決非常的精彩那我們繼續接下去我想這個速發部當初成立的時候有幾個重大的責任包含說我把它念一下這個強化數位基礎建設協助企業數位轉型跟打造更高層級的國安聯防體系\n\n2\n00:00:28,837 --> 00:00:46,107\n其實這個東西是當初這個幾個重大目標但是這些三大的政策目標其實坦白講對這個民眾來講距離有點遙遠把它唸完之後其實包含自己當立法委員唸完之後我還是不知道這個數位部要怎麼樣落實或具體的哪些政策能夠做到\n\n3\n00:00:46,947 --> 00:01:06,645\n之前去年有一個網路媒體對針對數位部成立一年的時候你滿意這個單位的表現嗎?發起了網路投票那有4點多萬人參與結果顯示有8%的民眾他認為他自己非常不滿意甚至有8%的網友是認為說不知道有數位部或是說不知道數位部在做什麼\n\n4\n00:01:07,706 --> 00:01:23,433\n當然我想這個對數位部來講也是一個委屈我想數位部就像成龍部長剛一開始講的這個數位部的很多的業務他的確沒辦法一開始一觸可及而且這個是一個首創的一個部會我要問部長一件事情\n\n5\n00:01:26,761 --> 00:01:43,253\n剛剛這個葛委員也提到類似的概念其實我一直很想問部長到底數位部對自己的定位在政府的體系裡面你們是一個怎麼樣的角色你們是扮演一個溝通協調的角色還是去協助各部會來解決它數位問題的角色\n\n6\n00:01:44,434 --> 00:02:13,381\n好謝謝委員首先剛剛提到那個應該中式電子報YouTube頻道那當然對我們很關心不過那個並不是真正的民意調查對我說非正式調查對這個取樣方法不同那但是我確實像這樣子的書子也告訴我們說我們對於這些分眾都要更好的溝通所以像舉例來說像最近電子簽賬法的溝通我們就是先從這個假投資、詐騙、廣告怎麼樣來預防防詐的這個概念來溝通而不是一下子就跳去講什麼演算法、公開經邀那個當然就\n\n7\n00:02:13,721 --> 00:02:14,062\n這是我們的根本。\n\n8\n00:02:29,662 --> 00:02:44,650\n好部長謝謝那我們看下一頁為什麼要特別提這個就是問你們到底在這個整個政府系統的這個定位是什麼因為民眾我想今天所有委員都很在意的就是所謂詐騙的問題數位部在剛成立的時候我當然要先講前提啊\n\n9\n00:02:45,410 --> 00:03:07,784\n我不會說詐騙案件是因為你們所以才有這個結果但是民眾也期待會因為數位部的成立詐騙案件能夠有相對的減少但是在從這個貴部111年成立到現在111年的時候當年的這個統計數字是2600多件那到了這個113年也是今年初的1月當然中間過程起起伏伏但是你看到\n\n10\n00:03:09,042 --> 00:03:15,869\n有一年,這當然是整個台灣社會問題有一年這個數字突然往上飆升之後就再也沒有下去了這個曲線都看得很清楚\n\n11\n00:03:17,205 --> 00:03:39,519\n對比到111年8月到現在為止我想整個台灣的詐騙的這個這個比例高達成長了30%到40%所以當然我們期待就是說數位部要去做防詐的部分那包含說你剛剛提到了這個電子簽章數位簽章法我想阿的確包含部長那時候來來這個來辦公室的時候來談的時候也提到說希望透過這個數位簽章法能夠來解決這個詐騙的問題我想這個數位簽章法數位簽章法的部分\n\n12\n00:03:48,260 --> 00:03:52,892\n我們是很肯定說你們很積極在推動這個打詐措施但是我們要問的一件事情是說\n\n13\n00:03:54,758 --> 00:04:21,092\n就像你剛剛提到的其實這個跟這個硬件證明是類似的概念就是說把它這個硬件證明把它傳統的硬件證明把它數位化變成這個數位簽章但用什麼樣的技術?區塊鏈嗎?我們現在是用所謂的非對稱加密技術那區塊鏈的那個簽章也是用同一個技術所以您可以是說用區塊鏈等級的技術這沒有問題但是我們目前這個區塊鏈比較不是像硬件證明比較像公證人\n\n14\n00:04:21,912 --> 00:04:35,579\n所以如果你簽了一個電子文件你要公示給所有人看到而且是各國都要看到這個時候用公共區塊鏈是很有用但是光是簽的這件事情不是區塊鏈了那部長我想問因為剛剛你提到說這個部分如果用這種技術來講未來\n\n15\n00:04:38,772 --> 00:05:04,831\n被偽造的機會相對比較低對就大幅減低因為最主要的還是有一個人別確認的過程就是有人會真的去驗說你是不是叫這個名字而且是如果是以自然憑證來講的話是護證事務所當面來驗證部長那我要跟你分享這民間的擔憂是什麼如果說就像我們今天不談數位問題我們單談資本的問題一般的這個人頭賬戶或所謂的這個存摺印章證件等等的他都可能被偽造他都可能有人頭賬戶的這個情況出現那\n\n16\n00:05:12,117 --> 00:05:32,294\n對,我想我們在技術上是可以確保說不被偽造但是如果有人他自己提供出去或者被騙出去給別人使用那這個問題當然不是純粹的技術問題這是一個社會上的犯罪問題但是我們現在也透過一個聯防機制就如果真的發生這種他的數位簽章他的憑證被別人拿走了拿去簽\n\n17\n00:05:33,256 --> 00:05:41,152\n他在這個平台被發現我們就會透過跟165以及所有相關的數位產業來通報這樣他在別的平台投資廣告之後就可以同時來下載\n\n18\n00:05:42,130 --> 00:06:11,009\n好那提到投資平台我想部長那時候來拜會誰講過三大平台你們未來也是要推動這相關的這個數位簽章的部分但是我要提個重點喔前兩天路透社的報導那今天我看這國內有中文媒體的報導就是說這個澳洲政府跟這個Meta公司已經槓上了因為他們針對這個澳洲政府一些相關政策他們不買單那未來如果我們對於所謂的三大平台不然Google、Meta還有其他的公司如果這種國際跨國企業也是提供相關的法令那他們如果不買單的話\n\n19\n00:06:12,170 --> 00:06:35,953\n那數位部有什麼樣的對策?或是這部分已經開始進行溝通協調了嗎?有的有的。像我去京都的時候就跟Meta的NickClegg就是他們的VP專門來討論這個問題。我用20秒。就是這裡面有一個很重要就是說整份新聞它不一定是call到Meta上。現在因為有深層式的AI它可以是取那個新聞的意思但是把它變成一首歌、一首短片等等。你講的是新聞的內容。我現在不是提新聞的內容。我要提的是說\n\n20\n00:06:37,034 --> 00:06:52,470\n比如說澳洲政府他訂了一個相關的法令他希望說Meta要來付費嘛就是你對這種跨國企業政府對跨國企業也有相關的法令產生的包含說這一次我們也希望說你提到說希望對三大平台有所管制他的下廣告他對這個相關的業務範圍他也需要經過我們政府的同意嘛\n\n21\n00:06:55,453 --> 00:07:24,390\n那如果他未來不同意這件事情的話我們的溝通機制是什麼首先我剛剛在講的是未來式因為在這一刻他們的主管機關還在經濟部但經濟部已經同意說把這些大型網路廣告業變成我們主管等這件事情發生電子項目法也三度通過我們就多了很多方式來採用那當然我們現在也有參與內政部的打壓專法我們也會在裡面包含大家很關心的境外如果在國內沒有設代理人的這些大型的廣告平台我們能不能要求他設代理人等等這個我們都有在進行\n\n22\n00:07:24,930 --> 00:07:38,899\n對阿因為像Meta前兩天也先講說這個事情就是說未來他要結束所謂代理制的行銷這個合作機會那所以未來像這樣Meta下廣告他直接從比如詐騙集團他直接在海外來執行相關的業務那投放到台灣地區這邊的這個廣告來講的話\n\n23\n00:07:41,841 --> 00:07:59,533\n數位部要怎麼去認證所謂的數位簽章這個事情?對,所以就是包含跨國的數位簽章互認這個是我們經貿談判非常重要的一點另外就是設定代理人之後也要給這些平台一個叫做負連帶責任像現在投資廣告如果有人被騙了那而且我們可以證明說是因為Facebook24小時沒下架造成的\n\n24\n00:07:59,824 --> 00:08:15,153\n那他被騙多少Facebook要賠多少所以這一部分的做法我們會持續跟相關機關一起來做我想這個不管是數位簽章法還是電子簽章法也好我想現在最重要的目的就是說對民眾來講我們對數位部最重要的期待就是去防堵所謂的網路詐騙對NCC是電信詐騙\n\n25\n00:08:17,014 --> 00:08:39,482\n那對數位部我們期待是防堵所有網絡詐騙所以像你們送進來的電子清張法、數位清張法我們也希望未來在這個法案的立法過程裡面你們能夠去加強去強調說比如說剛剛提到的未來像其他的跨國科技公司你們要怎麼去約束那如果他不同意被我們約束的時候你的談判溝通機是什麼我覺得這個要跟立法院來說明這樣子等於也是對民眾來說明讓大家相信說\n\n26\n00:08:41,303 --> 00:09:03,748\n我推了這個法案的時候才能夠真正的解決所謂這種廣告詐騙的問題不然其實過去都說要管理啊都很多管理方式啊但是人家就不買單不買單甚至我們多數臺灣我們臺灣政府也是面對這種跨國企業多數時候是沒有製裁能力的所以這部分為了要怎麼解決我們希望數位部在新的法案裡面如果真的把這個權利移交給你你們要能夠提出相關的做法這個我們責無旁貸謝謝謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9\t1910\t請唐部長部長好我想剛剛經歷了這兩個天才的這個對決非常的精彩那我們繼續接下去我想這個速發部當初成立的時候有幾個重大的責任包含說我把它念一下這個強化數位基礎建設協助企業數位轉型跟打造更高層級的國安聯防體系\n28837\t46107\t其實這個東西是當初這個幾個重大目標但是這些三大的政策目標其實坦白講對這個民眾來講距離有點遙遠把它唸完之後其實包含自己當立法委員唸完之後我還是不知道這個數位部要怎麼樣落實或具體的哪些政策能夠做到\n46947\t66645\t之前去年有一個網路媒體對針對數位部成立一年的時候你滿意這個單位的表現嗎?發起了網路投票那有4點多萬人參與結果顯示有8%的民眾他認為他自己非常不滿意甚至有8%的網友是認為說不知道有數位部或是說不知道數位部在做什麼\n67706\t83433\t當然我想這個對數位部來講也是一個委屈我想數位部就像成龍部長剛一開始講的這個數位部的很多的業務他的確沒辦法一開始一觸可及而且這個是一個首創的一個部會我要問部長一件事情\n86761\t103253\t剛剛這個葛委員也提到類似的概念其實我一直很想問部長到底數位部對自己的定位在政府的體系裡面你們是一個怎麼樣的角色你們是扮演一個溝通協調的角色還是去協助各部會來解決它數位問題的角色\n104434\t133381\t好 謝謝委員首先剛剛提到那個應該中式電子報YouTube頻道那當然對我們很關心不過那個並不是真正的民意調查對我說非正式調查對 這個取樣方法不同那但是我確實像這樣子的書子也告訴我們說我們對於這些分眾都要更好的溝通所以像舉例來說像最近電子簽賬法的溝通我們就是先從這個假投資、詐騙、廣告怎麼樣來預防防詐的這個概念來溝通而不是一下子就跳去講什麼演算法、公開經邀那個當然就\n133721\t134062\t這是我們的根本。\n149662\t164650\t好部長謝謝那我們看下一頁為什麼要特別提這個就是問你們到底在這個整個政府系統的這個定位是什麼因為民眾我想今天所有委員都很在意的就是所謂詐騙的問題數位部在剛成立的時候我當然要先講前提啊\n165410\t187784\t我不會說詐騙案件是因為你們所以才有這個結果但是民眾也期待會因為數位部的成立詐騙案件能夠有相對的減少但是在從這個貴部111年成立到現在111年的時候當年的這個統計數字是2600多件那到了這個113年也是今年初的1月當然中間過程起起伏伏但是你看到\n189042\t195869\t有一年,這當然是整個台灣社會問題有一年這個數字突然往上飆升之後就再也沒有下去了這個曲線都看得很清楚\n197205\t219519\t對比到111年8月到現在為止我想整個台灣的詐騙的這個這個比例高達成長了30%到40%所以當然我們期待就是說數位部要去做防詐的部分那包含說你剛剛提到了這個電子簽章數位簽章法我想阿的確包含部長那時候來來這個來辦公室的時候來談的時候也提到說希望透過這個數位簽章法能夠來解決這個詐騙的問題我想這個數位簽章法數位簽章法的部分\n228260\t232892\t我們是很肯定說你們很積極在推動這個打詐措施但是我們要問的一件事情是說\n234758\t261092\t就像你剛剛提到的其實這個跟這個硬件證明是類似的概念就是說把它這個硬件證明把它傳統的硬件證明把它數位化變成這個數位簽章但用什麼樣的技術?區塊鏈嗎?我們現在是用所謂的非對稱加密技術那區塊鏈的那個簽章也是用同一個技術所以您可以是說用區塊鏈等級的技術這沒有問題但是我們目前這個區塊鏈比較不是像硬件證明比較像公證人\n261912\t275579\t所以如果你簽了一個電子文件你要公示給所有人看到而且是各國都要看到這個時候用公共區塊鏈是很有用但是光是簽的這件事情不是區塊鏈了那部長我想問因為剛剛你提到說這個部分如果用這種技術來講未來\n278772\t304831\t被偽造的機會相對比較低對就大幅減低因為最主要的還是有一個人別確認的過程就是有人會真的去驗說你是不是叫這個名字而且是如果是以自然憑證來講的話是護證事務所當面來驗證部長那我要跟你分享這民間的擔憂是什麼如果說就像我們今天不談數位問題我們單談資本的問題一般的這個人頭賬戶或所謂的這個存摺印章證件等等的他都可能被偽造他都可能有人頭賬戶的這個情況出現那\n312117\t332294\t對,我想我們在技術上是可以確保說不被偽造但是如果有人他自己提供出去或者被騙出去給別人使用那這個問題當然不是純粹的技術問題這是一個社會上的犯罪問題但是我們現在也透過一個聯防機制就如果真的發生這種他的數位簽章他的憑證被別人拿走了拿去簽\n333256\t341152\t他在這個平台被發現我們就會透過跟165以及所有相關的數位產業來通報這樣他在別的平台投資廣告之後就可以同時來下載\n342130\t371009\t好那提到投資平台我想部長那時候來拜會誰講過三大平台你們未來也是要推動這相關的這個數位簽章的部分但是我要提個重點喔前兩天路透社的報導那今天我看這國內有中文媒體的報導就是說這個澳洲政府跟這個Meta公司已經槓上了因為他們針對這個澳洲政府一些相關政策他們不買單那未來如果我們對於所謂的三大平台不然Google、Meta還有其他的公司如果這種國際跨國企業也是提供相關的法令那他們如果不買單的話\n372170\t395953\t那數位部有什麼樣的對策?或是這部分已經開始進行溝通協調了嗎?有的有的。像我去京都的時候就跟Meta的Nick Clegg就是他們的VP專門來討論這個問題。我用20秒。就是這裡面有一個很重要就是說整份新聞它不一定是call到Meta上。現在因為有深層式的AI它可以是取那個新聞的意思但是把它變成一首歌、一首短片等等。你講的是新聞的內容。我現在不是提新聞的內容。我要提的是說\n397034\t412470\t比如說澳洲政府他訂了一個相關的法令他希望說Meta要來付費嘛就是你對這種跨國企業政府對跨國企業也有相關的法令產生的包含說這一次我們也希望說你提到說希望對三大平台有所管制他的下廣告他對這個相關的業務範圍他也需要經過我們政府的同意嘛\n415453\t444390\t那如果他未來不同意這件事情的話我們的溝通機制是什麼首先我剛剛在講的是未來式因為在這一刻他們的主管機關還在經濟部但經濟部已經同意說把這些大型網路廣告業變成我們主管等這件事情發生電子項目法也三度通過我們就多了很多方式來採用那當然我們現在也有參與內政部的打壓專法我們也會在裡面包含大家很關心的境外如果在國內沒有設代理人的這些大型的廣告平台我們能不能要求他設代理人等等這個我們都有在進行\n444930\t458899\t對阿因為像Meta前兩天也先講說這個事情就是說未來他要結束所謂代理制的行銷這個合作機會那所以未來像這樣Meta下廣告他直接從比如詐騙集團他直接在海外來執行相關的業務那投放到台灣地區這邊的這個廣告來講的話\n461841\t479533\t數位部要怎麼去認證所謂的數位簽章這個事情?對,所以就是包含跨國的數位簽章互認這個是我們經貿談判非常重要的一點另外就是設定代理人之後也要給這些平台一個叫做負連帶責任像現在投資廣告如果有人被騙了那而且我們可以證明說是因為Facebook24小時沒下架造成的\n479824\t495153\t那他被騙多少Facebook要賠多少所以這一部分的做法我們會持續跟相關機關一起來做我想這個不管是數位簽章法還是電子簽章法也好我想現在最重要的目的就是說對民眾來講我們對數位部最重要的期待就是去防堵所謂的網路詐騙對NCC是電信詐騙\n497014\t519482\t那對數位部我們期待是防堵所有網絡詐騙所以像你們送進來的電子清張法、數位清張法我們也希望未來在這個法案的立法過程裡面你們能夠去加強去強調說比如說剛剛提到的未來像其他的跨國科技公司你們要怎麼去約束那如果他不同意被我們約束的時候你的談判溝通機是什麼我覺得這個要跟立法院來說明這樣子等於也是對民眾來說明讓大家相信說\n521303\t543748\t我推了這個法案的時候才能夠真正的解決所謂這種廣告詐騙的問題不然其實過去都說要管理啊都很多管理方式啊但是人家就不買單不買單甚至我們多數臺灣我們臺灣政府也是面對這種跨國企業多數時候是沒有製裁能力的所以這部分為了要怎麼解決我們希望數位部在新的法案裡面如果真的把這個權利移交給你你們要能夠提出相關的做法這個我們責無旁貸謝謝謝謝\n","txt":"請唐部長部長好我想剛剛經歷了這兩個天才的這個對決非常的精彩那我們繼續接下去我想這個速發部當初成立的時候有幾個重大的責任包含說我把它念一下這個強化數位基礎建設協助企業數位轉型跟打造更高層級的國安聯防體系\n其實這個東西是當初這個幾個重大目標但是這些三大的政策目標其實坦白講對這個民眾來講距離有點遙遠把它唸完之後其實包含自己當立法委員唸完之後我還是不知道這個數位部要怎麼樣落實或具體的哪些政策能夠做到\n之前去年有一個網路媒體對針對數位部成立一年的時候你滿意這個單位的表現嗎?發起了網路投票那有4點多萬人參與結果顯示有8%的民眾他認為他自己非常不滿意甚至有8%的網友是認為說不知道有數位部或是說不知道數位部在做什麼\n當然我想這個對數位部來講也是一個委屈我想數位部就像成龍部長剛一開始講的這個數位部的很多的業務他的確沒辦法一開始一觸可及而且這個是一個首創的一個部會我要問部長一件事情\n剛剛這個葛委員也提到類似的概念其實我一直很想問部長到底數位部對自己的定位在政府的體系裡面你們是一個怎麼樣的角色你們是扮演一個溝通協調的角色還是去協助各部會來解決它數位問題的角色\n好 謝謝委員首先剛剛提到那個應該中式電子報YouTube頻道那當然對我們很關心不過那個並不是真正的民意調查對我說非正式調查對 這個取樣方法不同那但是我確實像這樣子的書子也告訴我們說我們對於這些分眾都要更好的溝通所以像舉例來說像最近電子簽賬法的溝通我們就是先從這個假投資、詐騙、廣告怎麼樣來預防防詐的這個概念來溝通而不是一下子就跳去講什麼演算法、公開經邀那個當然就\n這是我們的根本。\n好部長謝謝那我們看下一頁為什麼要特別提這個就是問你們到底在這個整個政府系統的這個定位是什麼因為民眾我想今天所有委員都很在意的就是所謂詐騙的問題數位部在剛成立的時候我當然要先講前提啊\n我不會說詐騙案件是因為你們所以才有這個結果但是民眾也期待會因為數位部的成立詐騙案件能夠有相對的減少但是在從這個貴部111年成立到現在111年的時候當年的這個統計數字是2600多件那到了這個113年也是今年初的1月當然中間過程起起伏伏但是你看到\n有一年,這當然是整個台灣社會問題有一年這個數字突然往上飆升之後就再也沒有下去了這個曲線都看得很清楚\n對比到111年8月到現在為止我想整個台灣的詐騙的這個這個比例高達成長了30%到40%所以當然我們期待就是說數位部要去做防詐的部分那包含說你剛剛提到了這個電子簽章數位簽章法我想阿的確包含部長那時候來來這個來辦公室的時候來談的時候也提到說希望透過這個數位簽章法能夠來解決這個詐騙的問題我想這個數位簽章法數位簽章法的部分\n我們是很肯定說你們很積極在推動這個打詐措施但是我們要問的一件事情是說\n就像你剛剛提到的其實這個跟這個硬件證明是類似的概念就是說把它這個硬件證明把它傳統的硬件證明把它數位化變成這個數位簽章但用什麼樣的技術?區塊鏈嗎?我們現在是用所謂的非對稱加密技術那區塊鏈的那個簽章也是用同一個技術所以您可以是說用區塊鏈等級的技術這沒有問題但是我們目前這個區塊鏈比較不是像硬件證明比較像公證人\n所以如果你簽了一個電子文件你要公示給所有人看到而且是各國都要看到這個時候用公共區塊鏈是很有用但是光是簽的這件事情不是區塊鏈了那部長我想問因為剛剛你提到說這個部分如果用這種技術來講未來\n被偽造的機會相對比較低對就大幅減低因為最主要的還是有一個人別確認的過程就是有人會真的去驗說你是不是叫這個名字而且是如果是以自然憑證來講的話是護證事務所當面來驗證部長那我要跟你分享這民間的擔憂是什麼如果說就像我們今天不談數位問題我們單談資本的問題一般的這個人頭賬戶或所謂的這個存摺印章證件等等的他都可能被偽造他都可能有人頭賬戶的這個情況出現那\n對,我想我們在技術上是可以確保說不被偽造但是如果有人他自己提供出去或者被騙出去給別人使用那這個問題當然不是純粹的技術問題這是一個社會上的犯罪問題但是我們現在也透過一個聯防機制就如果真的發生這種他的數位簽章他的憑證被別人拿走了拿去簽\n他在這個平台被發現我們就會透過跟165以及所有相關的數位產業來通報這樣他在別的平台投資廣告之後就可以同時來下載\n好那提到投資平台我想部長那時候來拜會誰講過三大平台你們未來也是要推動這相關的這個數位簽章的部分但是我要提個重點喔前兩天路透社的報導那今天我看這國內有中文媒體的報導就是說這個澳洲政府跟這個Meta公司已經槓上了因為他們針對這個澳洲政府一些相關政策他們不買單那未來如果我們對於所謂的三大平台不然Google、Meta還有其他的公司如果這種國際跨國企業也是提供相關的法令那他們如果不買單的話\n那數位部有什麼樣的對策?或是這部分已經開始進行溝通協調了嗎?有的有的。像我去京都的時候就跟Meta的Nick Clegg就是他們的VP專門來討論這個問題。我用20秒。就是這裡面有一個很重要就是說整份新聞它不一定是call到Meta上。現在因為有深層式的AI它可以是取那個新聞的意思但是把它變成一首歌、一首短片等等。你講的是新聞的內容。我現在不是提新聞的內容。我要提的是說\n比如說澳洲政府他訂了一個相關的法令他希望說Meta要來付費嘛就是你對這種跨國企業政府對跨國企業也有相關的法令產生的包含說這一次我們也希望說你提到說希望對三大平台有所管制他的下廣告他對這個相關的業務範圍他也需要經過我們政府的同意嘛\n那如果他未來不同意這件事情的話我們的溝通機制是什麼首先我剛剛在講的是未來式因為在這一刻他們的主管機關還在經濟部但經濟部已經同意說把這些大型網路廣告業變成我們主管等這件事情發生電子項目法也三度通過我們就多了很多方式來採用那當然我們現在也有參與內政部的打壓專法我們也會在裡面包含大家很關心的境外如果在國內沒有設代理人的這些大型的廣告平台我們能不能要求他設代理人等等這個我們都有在進行\n對阿因為像Meta前兩天也先講說這個事情就是說未來他要結束所謂代理制的行銷這個合作機會那所以未來像這樣Meta下廣告他直接從比如詐騙集團他直接在海外來執行相關的業務那投放到台灣地區這邊的這個廣告來講的話\n數位部要怎麼去認證所謂的數位簽章這個事情?對,所以就是包含跨國的數位簽章互認這個是我們經貿談判非常重要的一點另外就是設定代理人之後也要給這些平台一個叫做負連帶責任像現在投資廣告如果有人被騙了那而且我們可以證明說是因為Facebook24小時沒下架造成的\n那他被騙多少Facebook要賠多少所以這一部分的做法我們會持續跟相關機關一起來做我想這個不管是數位簽章法還是電子簽章法也好我想現在最重要的目的就是說對民眾來講我們對數位部最重要的期待就是去防堵所謂的網路詐騙對NCC是電信詐騙\n那對數位部我們期待是防堵所有網絡詐騙所以像你們送進來的電子清張法、數位清張法我們也希望未來在這個法案的立法過程裡面你們能夠去加強去強調說比如說剛剛提到的未來像其他的跨國科技公司你們要怎麼去約束那如果他不同意被我們約束的時候你的談判溝通機是什麼我覺得這個要跟立法院來說明這樣子等於也是對民眾來說明讓大家相信說\n我推了這個法案的時候才能夠真正的解決所謂這種廣告詐騙的問題不然其實過去都說要管理啊都很多管理方式啊但是人家就不買單不買單甚至我們多數臺灣我們臺灣政府也是面對這種跨國企業多數時候是沒有製裁能力的所以這部分為了要怎麼解決我們希望數位部在新的法案裡面如果真的把這個權利移交給你你們要能夠提出相關的做法這個我們責無旁貸謝謝謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.009 --> 00:01.910\n請唐部長部長好我想剛剛經歷了這兩個天才的這個對決非常的精彩那我們繼續接下去我想這個速發部當初成立的時候有幾個重大的責任包含說我把它念一下這個強化數位基礎建設協助企業數位轉型跟打造更高層級的國安聯防體系\n\n00:28.837 --> 00:46.107\n其實這個東西是當初這個幾個重大目標但是這些三大的政策目標其實坦白講對這個民眾來講距離有點遙遠把它唸完之後其實包含自己當立法委員唸完之後我還是不知道這個數位部要怎麼樣落實或具體的哪些政策能夠做到\n\n00:46.947 --> 01:06.645\n之前去年有一個網路媒體對針對數位部成立一年的時候你滿意這個單位的表現嗎?發起了網路投票那有4點多萬人參與結果顯示有8%的民眾他認為他自己非常不滿意甚至有8%的網友是認為說不知道有數位部或是說不知道數位部在做什麼\n\n01:07.706 --> 01:23.433\n當然我想這個對數位部來講也是一個委屈我想數位部就像成龍部長剛一開始講的這個數位部的很多的業務他的確沒辦法一開始一觸可及而且這個是一個首創的一個部會我要問部長一件事情\n\n01:26.761 --> 01:43.253\n剛剛這個葛委員也提到類似的概念其實我一直很想問部長到底數位部對自己的定位在政府的體系裡面你們是一個怎麼樣的角色你們是扮演一個溝通協調的角色還是去協助各部會來解決它數位問題的角色\n\n01:44.434 --> 02:13.381\n好謝謝委員首先剛剛提到那個應該中式電子報YouTube頻道那當然對我們很關心不過那個並不是真正的民意調查對我說非正式調查對這個取樣方法不同那但是我確實像這樣子的書子也告訴我們說我們對於這些分眾都要更好的溝通所以像舉例來說像最近電子簽賬法的溝通我們就是先從這個假投資、詐騙、廣告怎麼樣來預防防詐的這個概念來溝通而不是一下子就跳去講什麼演算法、公開經邀那個當然就\n\n02:13.721 --> 02:14.062\n這是我們的根本。\n\n02:29.662 --> 02:44.650\n好部長謝謝那我們看下一頁為什麼要特別提這個就是問你們到底在這個整個政府系統的這個定位是什麼因為民眾我想今天所有委員都很在意的就是所謂詐騙的問題數位部在剛成立的時候我當然要先講前提啊\n\n02:45.410 --> 03:07.784\n我不會說詐騙案件是因為你們所以才有這個結果但是民眾也期待會因為數位部的成立詐騙案件能夠有相對的減少但是在從這個貴部111年成立到現在111年的時候當年的這個統計數字是2600多件那到了這個113年也是今年初的1月當然中間過程起起伏伏但是你看到\n\n03:09.042 --> 03:15.869\n有一年,這當然是整個台灣社會問題有一年這個數字突然往上飆升之後就再也沒有下去了這個曲線都看得很清楚\n\n03:17.205 --> 03:39.519\n對比到111年8月到現在為止我想整個台灣的詐騙的這個這個比例高達成長了30%到40%所以當然我們期待就是說數位部要去做防詐的部分那包含說你剛剛提到了這個電子簽章數位簽章法我想阿的確包含部長那時候來來這個來辦公室的時候來談的時候也提到說希望透過這個數位簽章法能夠來解決這個詐騙的問題我想這個數位簽章法數位簽章法的部分\n\n03:48.260 --> 03:52.892\n我們是很肯定說你們很積極在推動這個打詐措施但是我們要問的一件事情是說\n\n03:54.758 --> 04:21.092\n就像你剛剛提到的其實這個跟這個硬件證明是類似的概念就是說把它這個硬件證明把它傳統的硬件證明把它數位化變成這個數位簽章但用什麼樣的技術?區塊鏈嗎?我們現在是用所謂的非對稱加密技術那區塊鏈的那個簽章也是用同一個技術所以您可以是說用區塊鏈等級的技術這沒有問題但是我們目前這個區塊鏈比較不是像硬件證明比較像公證人\n\n04:21.912 --> 04:35.579\n所以如果你簽了一個電子文件你要公示給所有人看到而且是各國都要看到這個時候用公共區塊鏈是很有用但是光是簽的這件事情不是區塊鏈了那部長我想問因為剛剛你提到說這個部分如果用這種技術來講未來\n\n04:38.772 --> 05:04.831\n被偽造的機會相對比較低對就大幅減低因為最主要的還是有一個人別確認的過程就是有人會真的去驗說你是不是叫這個名字而且是如果是以自然憑證來講的話是護證事務所當面來驗證部長那我要跟你分享這民間的擔憂是什麼如果說就像我們今天不談數位問題我們單談資本的問題一般的這個人頭賬戶或所謂的這個存摺印章證件等等的他都可能被偽造他都可能有人頭賬戶的這個情況出現那\n\n05:12.117 --> 05:32.294\n對,我想我們在技術上是可以確保說不被偽造但是如果有人他自己提供出去或者被騙出去給別人使用那這個問題當然不是純粹的技術問題這是一個社會上的犯罪問題但是我們現在也透過一個聯防機制就如果真的發生這種他的數位簽章他的憑證被別人拿走了拿去簽\n\n05:33.256 --> 05:41.152\n他在這個平台被發現我們就會透過跟165以及所有相關的數位產業來通報這樣他在別的平台投資廣告之後就可以同時來下載\n\n05:42.130 --> 06:11.009\n好那提到投資平台我想部長那時候來拜會誰講過三大平台你們未來也是要推動這相關的這個數位簽章的部分但是我要提個重點喔前兩天路透社的報導那今天我看這國內有中文媒體的報導就是說這個澳洲政府跟這個Meta公司已經槓上了因為他們針對這個澳洲政府一些相關政策他們不買單那未來如果我們對於所謂的三大平台不然Google、Meta還有其他的公司如果這種國際跨國企業也是提供相關的法令那他們如果不買單的話\n\n06:12.170 --> 06:35.953\n那數位部有什麼樣的對策?或是這部分已經開始進行溝通協調了嗎?有的有的。像我去京都的時候就跟Meta的NickClegg就是他們的VP專門來討論這個問題。我用20秒。就是這裡面有一個很重要就是說整份新聞它不一定是call到Meta上。現在因為有深層式的AI它可以是取那個新聞的意思但是把它變成一首歌、一首短片等等。你講的是新聞的內容。我現在不是提新聞的內容。我要提的是說\n\n06:37.034 --> 06:52.470\n比如說澳洲政府他訂了一個相關的法令他希望說Meta要來付費嘛就是你對這種跨國企業政府對跨國企業也有相關的法令產生的包含說這一次我們也希望說你提到說希望對三大平台有所管制他的下廣告他對這個相關的業務範圍他也需要經過我們政府的同意嘛\n\n06:55.453 --> 07:24.390\n那如果他未來不同意這件事情的話我們的溝通機制是什麼首先我剛剛在講的是未來式因為在這一刻他們的主管機關還在經濟部但經濟部已經同意說把這些大型網路廣告業變成我們主管等這件事情發生電子項目法也三度通過我們就多了很多方式來採用那當然我們現在也有參與內政部的打壓專法我們也會在裡面包含大家很關心的境外如果在國內沒有設代理人的這些大型的廣告平台我們能不能要求他設代理人等等這個我們都有在進行\n\n07:24.930 --> 07:38.899\n對阿因為像Meta前兩天也先講說這個事情就是說未來他要結束所謂代理制的行銷這個合作機會那所以未來像這樣Meta下廣告他直接從比如詐騙集團他直接在海外來執行相關的業務那投放到台灣地區這邊的這個廣告來講的話\n\n07:41.841 --> 07:59.533\n數位部要怎麼去認證所謂的數位簽章這個事情?對,所以就是包含跨國的數位簽章互認這個是我們經貿談判非常重要的一點另外就是設定代理人之後也要給這些平台一個叫做負連帶責任像現在投資廣告如果有人被騙了那而且我們可以證明說是因為Facebook24小時沒下架造成的\n\n07:59.824 --> 08:15.153\n那他被騙多少Facebook要賠多少所以這一部分的做法我們會持續跟相關機關一起來做我想這個不管是數位簽章法還是電子簽章法也好我想現在最重要的目的就是說對民眾來講我們對數位部最重要的期待就是去防堵所謂的網路詐騙對NCC是電信詐騙\n\n08:17.014 --> 08:39.482\n那對數位部我們期待是防堵所有網絡詐騙所以像你們送進來的電子清張法、數位清張法我們也希望未來在這個法案的立法過程裡面你們能夠去加強去強調說比如說剛剛提到的未來像其他的跨國科技公司你們要怎麼去約束那如果他不同意被我們約束的時候你的談判溝通機是什麼我覺得這個要跟立法院來說明這樣子等於也是對民眾來說明讓大家相信說\n\n08:41.303 --> 09:03.748\n我推了這個法案的時候才能夠真正的解決所謂這種廣告詐騙的問題不然其實過去都說要管理啊都很多管理方式啊但是人家就不買單不買單甚至我們多數臺灣我們臺灣政府也是面對這種跨國企業多數時候是沒有製裁能力的所以這部分為了要怎麼解決我們希望數位部在新的法案裡面如果真的把這個權利移交給你你們要能夠提出相關的做法這個我們責無旁貸謝謝謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.009,"end":1.91,"text":"請唐部長部長好我想剛剛經歷了這兩個天才的這個對決非常的精彩那我們繼續接下去我想這個速發部當初成立的時候有幾個重大的責任包含說我把它念一下這個強化數位基礎建設協助企業數位轉型跟打造更高層級的國安聯防體系"},{"start":28.837,"end":46.107,"text":"其實這個東西是當初這個幾個重大目標但是這些三大的政策目標其實坦白講對這個民眾來講距離有點遙遠把它唸完之後其實包含自己當立法委員唸完之後我還是不知道這個數位部要怎麼樣落實或具體的哪些政策能夠做到"},{"start":46.947,"end":66.645,"text":"之前去年有一個網路媒體對針對數位部成立一年的時候你滿意這個單位的表現嗎?發起了網路投票那有4點多萬人參與結果顯示有8%的民眾他認為他自己非常不滿意甚至有8%的網友是認為說不知道有數位部或是說不知道數位部在做什麼"},{"start":67.706,"end":83.433,"text":"當然我想這個對數位部來講也是一個委屈我想數位部就像成龍部長剛一開始講的這個數位部的很多的業務他的確沒辦法一開始一觸可及而且這個是一個首創的一個部會我要問部長一件事情"},{"start":86.761,"end":103.253,"text":"剛剛這個葛委員也提到類似的概念其實我一直很想問部長到底數位部對自己的定位在政府的體系裡面你們是一個怎麼樣的角色你們是扮演一個溝通協調的角色還是去協助各部會來解決它數位問題的角色"},{"start":104.434,"end":133.381,"text":"好 謝謝委員首先剛剛提到那個應該中式電子報YouTube頻道那當然對我們很關心不過那個並不是真正的民意調查對我說非正式調查對 這個取樣方法不同那但是我確實像這樣子的書子也告訴我們說我們對於這些分眾都要更好的溝通所以像舉例來說像最近電子簽賬法的溝通我們就是先從這個假投資、詐騙、廣告怎麼樣來預防防詐的這個概念來溝通而不是一下子就跳去講什麼演算法、公開經邀那個當然就"},{"start":133.721,"end":134.062,"text":"這是我們的根本。"},{"start":149.662,"end":164.65,"text":"好部長謝謝那我們看下一頁為什麼要特別提這個就是問你們到底在這個整個政府系統的這個定位是什麼因為民眾我想今天所有委員都很在意的就是所謂詐騙的問題數位部在剛成立的時候我當然要先講前提啊"},{"start":165.41,"end":187.784,"text":"我不會說詐騙案件是因為你們所以才有這個結果但是民眾也期待會因為數位部的成立詐騙案件能夠有相對的減少但是在從這個貴部111年成立到現在111年的時候當年的這個統計數字是2600多件那到了這個113年也是今年初的1月當然中間過程起起伏伏但是你看到"},{"start":189.042,"end":195.869,"text":"有一年,這當然是整個台灣社會問題有一年這個數字突然往上飆升之後就再也沒有下去了這個曲線都看得很清楚"},{"start":197.205,"end":219.519,"text":"對比到111年8月到現在為止我想整個台灣的詐騙的這個這個比例高達成長了30%到40%所以當然我們期待就是說數位部要去做防詐的部分那包含說你剛剛提到了這個電子簽章數位簽章法我想阿的確包含部長那時候來來這個來辦公室的時候來談的時候也提到說希望透過這個數位簽章法能夠來解決這個詐騙的問題我想這個數位簽章法數位簽章法的部分"},{"start":228.26,"end":232.892,"text":"我們是很肯定說你們很積極在推動這個打詐措施但是我們要問的一件事情是說"},{"start":234.758,"end":261.092,"text":"就像你剛剛提到的其實這個跟這個硬件證明是類似的概念就是說把它這個硬件證明把它傳統的硬件證明把它數位化變成這個數位簽章但用什麼樣的技術?區塊鏈嗎?我們現在是用所謂的非對稱加密技術那區塊鏈的那個簽章也是用同一個技術所以您可以是說用區塊鏈等級的技術這沒有問題但是我們目前這個區塊鏈比較不是像硬件證明比較像公證人"},{"start":261.912,"end":275.579,"text":"所以如果你簽了一個電子文件你要公示給所有人看到而且是各國都要看到這個時候用公共區塊鏈是很有用但是光是簽的這件事情不是區塊鏈了那部長我想問因為剛剛你提到說這個部分如果用這種技術來講未來"},{"start":278.772,"end":304.831,"text":"被偽造的機會相對比較低對就大幅減低因為最主要的還是有一個人別確認的過程就是有人會真的去驗說你是不是叫這個名字而且是如果是以自然憑證來講的話是護證事務所當面來驗證部長那我要跟你分享這民間的擔憂是什麼如果說就像我們今天不談數位問題我們單談資本的問題一般的這個人頭賬戶或所謂的這個存摺印章證件等等的他都可能被偽造他都可能有人頭賬戶的這個情況出現那"},{"start":312.117,"end":332.294,"text":"對,我想我們在技術上是可以確保說不被偽造但是如果有人他自己提供出去或者被騙出去給別人使用那這個問題當然不是純粹的技術問題這是一個社會上的犯罪問題但是我們現在也透過一個聯防機制就如果真的發生這種他的數位簽章他的憑證被別人拿走了拿去簽"},{"start":333.256,"end":341.152,"text":"他在這個平台被發現我們就會透過跟165以及所有相關的數位產業來通報這樣他在別的平台投資廣告之後就可以同時來下載"},{"start":342.13,"end":371.009,"text":"好那提到投資平台我想部長那時候來拜會誰講過三大平台你們未來也是要推動這相關的這個數位簽章的部分但是我要提個重點喔前兩天路透社的報導那今天我看這國內有中文媒體的報導就是說這個澳洲政府跟這個Meta公司已經槓上了因為他們針對這個澳洲政府一些相關政策他們不買單那未來如果我們對於所謂的三大平台不然Google、Meta還有其他的公司如果這種國際跨國企業也是提供相關的法令那他們如果不買單的話"},{"start":372.17,"end":395.953,"text":"那數位部有什麼樣的對策?或是這部分已經開始進行溝通協調了嗎?有的有的。像我去京都的時候就跟Meta的Nick Clegg就是他們的VP專門來討論這個問題。我用20秒。就是這裡面有一個很重要就是說整份新聞它不一定是call到Meta上。現在因為有深層式的AI它可以是取那個新聞的意思但是把它變成一首歌、一首短片等等。你講的是新聞的內容。我現在不是提新聞的內容。我要提的是說"},{"start":397.034,"end":412.47,"text":"比如說澳洲政府他訂了一個相關的法令他希望說Meta要來付費嘛就是你對這種跨國企業政府對跨國企業也有相關的法令產生的包含說這一次我們也希望說你提到說希望對三大平台有所管制他的下廣告他對這個相關的業務範圍他也需要經過我們政府的同意嘛"},{"start":415.453,"end":444.39,"text":"那如果他未來不同意這件事情的話我們的溝通機制是什麼首先我剛剛在講的是未來式因為在這一刻他們的主管機關還在經濟部但經濟部已經同意說把這些大型網路廣告業變成我們主管等這件事情發生電子項目法也三度通過我們就多了很多方式來採用那當然我們現在也有參與內政部的打壓專法我們也會在裡面包含大家很關心的境外如果在國內沒有設代理人的這些大型的廣告平台我們能不能要求他設代理人等等這個我們都有在進行"},{"start":444.93,"end":458.899,"text":"對阿因為像Meta前兩天也先講說這個事情就是說未來他要結束所謂代理制的行銷這個合作機會那所以未來像這樣Meta下廣告他直接從比如詐騙集團他直接在海外來執行相關的業務那投放到台灣地區這邊的這個廣告來講的話"},{"start":461.841,"end":479.533,"text":"數位部要怎麼去認證所謂的數位簽章這個事情?對,所以就是包含跨國的數位簽章互認這個是我們經貿談判非常重要的一點另外就是設定代理人之後也要給這些平台一個叫做負連帶責任像現在投資廣告如果有人被騙了那而且我們可以證明說是因為Facebook24小時沒下架造成的"},{"start":479.824,"end":495.153,"text":"那他被騙多少Facebook要賠多少所以這一部分的做法我們會持續跟相關機關一起來做我想這個不管是數位簽章法還是電子簽章法也好我想現在最重要的目的就是說對民眾來講我們對數位部最重要的期待就是去防堵所謂的網路詐騙對NCC是電信詐騙"},{"start":497.014,"end":519.482,"text":"那對數位部我們期待是防堵所有網絡詐騙所以像你們送進來的電子清張法、數位清張法我們也希望未來在這個法案的立法過程裡面你們能夠去加強去強調說比如說剛剛提到的未來像其他的跨國科技公司你們要怎麼去約束那如果他不同意被我們約束的時候你的談判溝通機是什麼我覺得這個要跟立法院來說明這樣子等於也是對民眾來說明讓大家相信說"},{"start":521.303,"end":543.748,"text":"我推了這個法案的時候才能夠真正的解決所謂這種廣告詐騙的問題不然其實過去都說要管理啊都很多管理方式啊但是人家就不買單不買單甚至我們多數臺灣我們臺灣政府也是面對這種跨國企業多數時候是沒有製裁能力的所以這部分為了要怎麼解決我們希望數位部在新的法案裡面如果真的把這個權利移交給你你們要能夠提出相關的做法這個我們責無旁貸謝謝謝謝"}]}}}}