{"id":149483,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149483","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe657324b80d2e6f32afe835f95dd6e817f8ba9b0039caa7a6cd52318b7ce094545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"10:05:56 - 10:15:26","影片長度":"00:09:30","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":570,"end_time":"2024-03-07T10:15:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T10:05:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":261,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（10時5分）謝謝主席，有請唐部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["唐部長鳳：委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：部長好。其實這個打詐、防詐已經談了4年了，現在邁入第5年，當然您是最近1年半才加入的。大家對於數位部，尤其對於我們政府成立的打詐辦公室，甚至有打詐國家隊，大家的期待是比較深的啦。今天早上我有特別看了你的書面報告，第二個是我也看到最近一些數位部對於打詐努力付出的一個成果，我感覺今天部長站在舞臺上是要跟民眾講的是：你們都不懂我的努力，你們都不懂我的心，我對打詐已經做得這麼好了。是不是？"],["唐部長鳳：在我們主管的這些行業別裡面，電商啊等等，當然我們的成績是不錯，但是像線上廣告的部分，我們在爭取成為主管。"],["魯委員明哲：好，其實民眾也想跟你說同樣的話，你不懂民眾的心啊，到底這個差距在哪裡？說真的啦，你們在111年8月成立了數位部，帶著民眾的期待，當然期待很多，包括產業領域，其中一個希望是不要再老是是我們的員警同仁在最後那個階段去收拾殘局，因為他們疲於奔命，所以我們希望數位部出來能夠統領科技的前沿，在第一階段、在最前面、在源頭能夠大量減少或怎麼樣來遏止詐騙的訊息等等，但是我們現在看到在尾端的刑事局這5年的統計資料，他看到的訊息還不算喔，被詐騙訊息詐到的都不是這些數字，然後受害者沒有報案的也沒有統計進來，這是被詐到、被騙到受害又決定去報案的人數，我們看到了覺得奇怪，為什麼大家一直說數位部讓大家的期待有那麼一點點失望，原因是因為數位部成立之後，在刑事局那邊的詐騙件數還增加，增加了33%，當然因為量多，破案率反而下降，你對於這個數字的快速成長有什麼說法？"],["唐部長鳳：好，謝謝。我們去年在交委會有提出說明過，在這一年來有一個很重要的差別，就是生成式AI的普及，也就是說本來他一個人只能當一個人用，現在一個人可以冒充成幾百個人用，這個真的不一樣。我們周邊的國家，像新加坡等等，它的年成長率有的超過百分之百喔，所以這一波是國際的，但是我們現在是要把它壓平，目前是正在壓平的狀況，這就要靠電子簽章法，所以我完全同意不能夠完全請末端的檢警調等等一個案子一個案子來處理，我們幫他們建立聯防之外，也要在源頭透過電子簽章法這樣的方式來防詐。"],["魯委員明哲：好，這是第一個看到的數據。第二個是最近國際的一個反詐騙組織在去年年底的統計，這也算是滿新的資料啦，他們針對11個經常受到詐騙的國家、地區做了一個統計，你看這上面的統計結果，我覺得滿有參考價值，臺灣近六成民眾每一個禮拜至少接觸一次詐騙，我覺得這個統計算保守的啦，所以這是民眾的感受，怎麼詐騙一天到晚來。好，第二個，真的被騙到了，真的受害到了，損失能追回的比率，當然不見得是數位部，後面包括我們的司法機關、警政機關能不能去追回？但你也知道前緣他騙的手法，錢匯到哪裡去，但是我們追回的比率，在世界詐騙的一個類似的手法，臺灣追回的比率只占13.9%，遠比日本跟新加坡還要低。","我講這件事的原因就是，假設我們真的沒有辦法去控制源頭，那這個事情就只有越來越嚴重。民眾的感受是我一天所有的行動裝置，包括電腦，又來了很多詐騙的訊息，所以他覺得詐騙是越來越嚴重。再來受損失的人、被騙的人，因為轟炸比率變高了，對不對？亂槍打鳥，打得比率越多，會被騙的人還是越來越多，因此整體民眾的感受是真的很不好。我在這裡真的期待，包括電子簽章等等的，儘快在法規面讓它能夠上路，希望透過你們現在在研究的一些方式，真的能夠再度的有效的降低。你覺得電子簽章法如果通過之後，大概詐騙會怎麼樣降低呢？"],["唐部長鳳：我覺得包含投資廣告在內這種冒充名人的狀況，它的再犯率應該要大幅降低，不然就是沒有起到作用，我蠻有信心是可以的，現在已經送到大院了，所以我希望此案交委會的委員們都支持。"],["魯委員明哲：好的。接下來最近鬧得也很熱門的題目就是數位身分證，我還特別看到2020年12月的時候，你跟當時的部長阿勇，你們也錄製一個節目，現在在網路上都看得到，你當時特別強調替數位身分證的資安掛保證，絕對沒有什麼問題。整個節目的時間還蠻長的，我聽了一段……"],["唐部長鳳：謝謝。"],["魯委員明哲：但你掛完保證之後1個月就喊卡了。你跟徐部長可以說是當時數位身分證後面的兩個重要的推手，現在喊卡、停掉最主要是什麼原因？"],["唐部長鳳：當時大眾對我們主要的期許其實並不是專門技術上面的，而是說他們擔心如果一下子就換發，還沒有配套，像個人資料保護的獨立委員會的成立，或者內政部的一個專法來保證就算不用晶片的人也可以用相同的公共服務，他們很擔心會變成好像政府可以掌握大家的一舉一動等等，這個跟資安是兩件事情。"],["魯委員明哲：好。因為我昨天看到有報章媒體寫說，這個國民黨委員不知道，當時的數位身分證，剛開始提出這個口號的是我們馬英九政府。喔，馬維拉又出來了。我就覺得很奇怪，我覺得比如這個公園要蓋一個接待中心，我提出這個理念，然後到最後你們把它蓋歪了、蓋不成了，居然去指責當時提出這個理念的人。數位身分證事實上在全球現在確實是一個潮流，這點到現在都沒有變嘛，兩個原因推不下去：第一個是資安的疑慮，就是你當時掛保證資安沒有問題，但人民不相信嘛！就是覺得資安會外洩的這個部分，會外流到哪裡去不知道，這是第一個不安心。但最不安心的，坦白講是對政府的不信任啦！是這個資料假設沒有外洩，我們政府怎麼樣去內用，我覺得這個後端的資料處理……"],["唐部長鳳：擔心集權的這個才是真的。"],["魯委員明哲：沒錯、沒錯。當然啦，因為政府可能會換人，換誰不知道，所以這兩個疑慮：外洩以及內部如果不正當的使用，讓民眾覺得非常非常擔心，這是停下來最主要的原因。所以我在想，去年5月份你在專訪的時候，在質詢的時候還說有可能繼續推，那現在錢都賠了……"],["唐部長鳳：不是這樣講的，我說的是這個要等獨立的個資會成立之後，那我們跟著獨立個資會，包含內政部要不要立專法來進行研擬，這是完整的說法。"],["魯委員明哲：我知道啊！你說獨立的個資會成立之後，由它決定推不推，如果不推，那可能就會要去賠償，可是個資會也沒成立，現在已經賠了嘛。不管有人說那是賠或者不賠，那總共花了這麼多錢，我不知道，因為當時我有請教內政部，我知道當時你是政務委員，你也是主要後面的一個重要的推手，我們在很多資安的疑慮之下，針對我們資料在國內怎麼樣使用，人民不安心，可是你看看這件事情總共不是最後的2.8億，是整個投入的有可能變成都沒有辦法用，所以我覺得非常可惜啦！這對於數發部我覺得也是一個經驗，這邊有多少東西還可以留下來，如果萬一哪一天數位身分證或者相關的一些device還要再用的，還有哪一些是可用的設備？還是都不能用？"],["唐部長鳳：對，這個調解就是讓它保持在可用，但這是內政部要回答的問題，我要回答的問題是，在這整個過程裡面，我們也很同意需要有獨立的個資會，這個我們的立場跟民間是一樣的。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["魯委員明哲：好，那我今天就請教到這裡。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝魯委員，魯委員發言完畢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","徐富癸","林國成","許智傑","葛如鈞","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳素月","林俊憲","邱若華","蔡其昌","廖先翔","謝衣鳯","游顥","林沛祥","何欣純","徐巧芯","羅智強","李坤城","陳冠廷","黃珊珊","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","劉建國","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭"],"page_start":349,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就\n「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130901_00005"}},"transcript":{"id":"149483","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149483","tool":"pyannote","id":"149483-pyannote"},"job_id":"CjM1ZEvTY3oKXamJ","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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0.883}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 551.338, \"end\": 551.438, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 551.438, \"end\": 551.458, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"魯\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 552.731, \"end\": 552.751, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,668 --> 00:00:06,569\n謝謝主席,有請唐部長。請部長。委員好。部長好。\n\n2\n00:00:13,297 --> 00:00:40,722\n其實打詐防詐已經談了4年了今天邁入第5年了當然您是最近一年半才加入這個因為大家對於數位部尤其對於我們政府成立的打詐辦公室甚至有打詐國家隊大家的期待是比較深的今天早上我特別看到你的書面報告我也看了一下第二個我也看到你最近的一些的\n\n3\n00:00:42,223 --> 00:01:06,466\n對於數位部．對於打詐的一個努力付出了一個成果我感覺今天部長站在舞台上要跟民眾講你們都不懂我的努力都不懂我的心我對打詐已經這個做得做得這麼好了是不是在我們主管的這些行業別是不是電商啊等等這個當然我們成績是不錯但是像線上廣告當然我們在爭取成為主管好\n\n4\n00:01:08,024 --> 00:01:25,879\n其實民眾也想跟你說同樣的話所以你不懂民眾的心啊到底這差距在哪裡說真的啦你們在111年8月成立的數位部帶著民眾的一個期待當然期待很多包括產業領域其中一個希望\n\n5\n00:01:27,031 --> 00:01:53,300\n不要再老是我們的員警同仁在最後那個階段去收拾這個殘局因為他們疲於奔命所以我們希望數位部出來能夠統領這樣的科技的前沿在第一階段在最前面在源頭能夠大量減少或怎麼樣的這個遏止這樣的一個詐騙的一個訊息等等的但是我們現在看到\n\n6\n00:01:54,500 --> 00:02:23,682\n這是在尾端刑事局這五年的統計就是說他看到訊息那個還不算被詐騙去已經炸到的都不是這些數字然後受害者沒有報案的也沒有統計進來這是被炸到、被騙到、受害又決定去報案的人數我們看到奇怪為什麼大家一直談數位部對大家的期待有那麼一點點的失望的原因是因為你成立之後\n\n7\n00:02:24,663 --> 00:02:34,116\n在刑事局那邊詐騙的件數還增加了33%那當然因為量多破案率反而下降\n\n8\n00:02:35,800 --> 00:03:02,074\n你對於這樣的數字的快速的成長,你的說法是?我們去年在交友會有說明過這一年來有一個很重要的差別就是生成式AI的普及也就是說本來它一個人只能當一個人用現在一個人可以冒充成幾百個人用這個真的不一樣那我們周邊的像新加坡等等它年成長率有的超過百分之百所以這一波是國際的但是我們現在是要把它壓平目前是正在壓平的狀況\n\n9\n00:03:02,654 --> 00:03:03,175\n這是第一個看到的數據第二個呢\n\n10\n00:03:17,884 --> 00:03:32,245\n最近當我們這個國際的一個反詐騙的一個組織他們在去年年底也算是蠻新的資料啦他針對蠻多的一個國家11個國家常受到詐騙的這些的國家、地區做一個統計\n\n11\n00:03:34,386 --> 00:04:02,993\n你看到他上面統計的一個結果我覺得蠻有參考價值的台灣近六成的民眾每一個禮拜至少接觸一次的詐騙我覺得這算保守了這統計也算保守了所以這是民眾的感受怎麼詐騙一天到晚來第二個呢真的被騙到了真的受害到了損失追回的比例當然不見得是數位部後面包括我們司法機關、警政機關\n\n12\n00:04:04,133 --> 00:04:04,153\n拜訪議員\n\n13\n00:04:25,217 --> 00:04:25,397\n委員會主席\n\n14\n00:04:55,297 --> 00:05:19,397\n包括了電子簽章等等的盡快在法規面讓它能夠上路希望透過你們現在在研究的一些方式真的能夠再度的有效的降低你覺得電子簽章法如果通過之後會不會大概詐騙會怎麼樣降低呢我覺得你這個包含投資廣告在那種冒充名人的狀況\n\n15\n00:05:20,037 --> 00:05:48,880\n他的債範率應該要大幅降低不然就是沒有起到作用我蠻有信心是可以的那現在已經送到大院了所以我想希望這個交友會委員們都支持好的那接下來齁最近啊繞的很熱門的題目啊就是收回身份證吧那我們還特別看到齁因為2000年12月的時候啊你跟阿勇嘛當時的部長啊你們也錄製一個節目啊現在在那個網路啊上面都看得到了\n\n16\n00:05:49,600 --> 00:06:14,001\n你特別強調這個數位身分證自然是掛保證,絕對沒有什麼問題在整個節目時間還蠻長的,我聽了一段但你掛完保證之後一個月就喊卡了你跟當時徐部長可以講說是當時數位身分證兩個重要的後面的一個推手嗎?那現在喊卡了,停掉了\n\n17\n00:06:15,822 --> 00:06:41,792\n所以主要什麼原因啊?當時大眾對我們主要的期許其實並不是專門技術上面的而是說他們擔心說如果一下子就換發還沒有配套的像個人資料保護的獨立委員會的成立或者內政部的一個專法來保證說就算不用晶片的人也可以用相同的公共服務那他們很擔心說會變成說好像政府可以掌握大家的一舉一動等等這個跟資安是兩件事情喔\n\n18\n00:06:42,492 --> 00:07:03,947\n好因為我昨天看到報道媒體寫說這個國民黨委員不知道這個當時的數位身份證剛開始提出這個口號的是我們馬英九政府哇馬威拉又出來了我就覺得很奇怪我覺得這個公園要蓋一個接待中心我提出這個理念然後到最後你們把它蓋歪了蓋不成了\n\n19\n00:07:05,868 --> 00:07:33,173\n居然去指責當時提這個理念的人數位身份證事實上在全球現在確實是一個潮流這個到現在都沒有變嘛兩個原因推不下去第一個資安的餘力就是你當時掛保證資安沒有問題但人民不相信嘛就是覺得資安會外洩的這個部分會外流到哪裡去不知道這是第一個不安心但最不安心的是坦白講是對政府的不信任啦\n\n20\n00:07:33,633 --> 00:07:59,164\n是這個資料假設沒有外泄我們政府怎麼樣去內用我覺得這個後端的資料處理擔心極權的這個才是真的沒錯沒錯當然啦因為政府可能會換人換誰不知道所以這個兩個例外泄內部如果不正當的一個使用讓民眾覺得非常非常擔心這是停下來最主要的一個原因所以我在想你在去年5月份\n\n21\n00:08:00,578 --> 00:08:16,836\n你在專訪的時候在質詢的時候還說有可能繼續推那現在錢都賠了不是這樣講的我說的是這個要等獨立的各自會成立之後那我們跟著獨立各自會包含內政部要不要立專法來進行研擬這是完整的說\n\n22\n00:08:17,176 --> 00:08:43,429\n我知道你說獨立的各自會成立之後他決定推不推如果不推那可能就會要去賠償可是各自會沒成立啊現在已經賠了嘛不管有人說那是賠或者不賠那總共花了這麼多錢我不知道因為當時我有請教內政部啦我知道當時你是政務委員你也是主要後面一個重要的一個推手那我們在很多的一個資安的這個餘力之下\n\n23\n00:08:45,890 --> 00:09:11,458\n拜託您看一看這件事情總共不是最後的2.8億是整個投入的有可能變成都沒有辦法用所以我覺得非常可惜這對於速發部我覺得也是一個經驗這邊有多少東西還可以留下來如果萬一哪一天數位身份證或者相關的一些device還要再用的還有哪一些\n\n24\n00:09:12,731 --> 00:09:12,751\n謝謝魯委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4668\t6569\t謝謝主席,有請唐部長。請部長。委員好。部長好。\n13297\t40722\t其實打詐防詐已經談了4年了今天邁入第5年了當然您是最近一年半才加入這個因為大家對於數位部尤其對於我們政府成立的打詐辦公室甚至有打詐國家隊大家的期待是比較深的今天早上我特別看到你的書面報告我也看了一下第二個我也看到你最近的一些的\n42223\t66466\t對於數位部．對於打詐的一個努力付出了一個成果我感覺今天部長站在舞台上要跟民眾講你們都不懂我的努力都不懂我的心我對打詐已經這個做得做得這麼好了是不是在我們主管的這些行業別是不是電商啊等等這個當然我們成績是不錯但是像線上廣告當然我們在爭取成為主管好\n68024\t85879\t其實民眾也想跟你說同樣的話所以你不懂民眾的心啊到底這差距在哪裡說真的啦你們在111年8月成立的數位部帶著民眾的一個期待當然期待很多包括產業領域其中一個希望\n87031\t113300\t不要再老是我們的員警同仁在最後那個階段去收拾這個殘局因為他們疲於奔命所以我們希望數位部出來能夠統領這樣的科技的前沿在第一階段在最前面在源頭能夠大量減少或怎麼樣的這個遏止這樣的一個詐騙的一個訊息等等的但是我們現在看到\n114500\t143682\t這是在尾端刑事局這五年的統計就是說他看到訊息那個還不算被詐騙去已經炸到的都不是這些數字然後受害者沒有報案的也沒有統計進來這是被炸到、被騙到、受害又決定去報案的人數我們看到奇怪為什麼大家一直談數位部對大家的期待有那麼一點點的失望的原因是因為你成立之後\n144663\t154116\t在刑事局那邊詐騙的件數還增加了33%那當然因為量多破案率反而下降\n155800\t182074\t你對於這樣的數字的快速的成長,你的說法是?我們去年在交友會有說明過這一年來有一個很重要的差別就是生成式AI的普及也就是說本來它一個人只能當一個人用現在一個人可以冒充成幾百個人用這個真的不一樣那我們周邊的像新加坡等等它年成長率有的超過百分之百所以這一波是國際的但是我們現在是要把它壓平目前是正在壓平的狀況\n182654\t183175\t這是第一個看到的數據第二個呢\n197884\t212245\t最近當我們這個國際的一個反詐騙的一個組織他們在去年年底也算是蠻新的資料啦他針對蠻多的一個國家11個國家常受到詐騙的這些的國家、地區做一個統計\n214386\t242993\t你看到他上面統計的一個結果我覺得蠻有參考價值的台灣近六成的民眾每一個禮拜至少接觸一次的詐騙我覺得這算保守了這統計也算保守了所以這是民眾的感受怎麼詐騙一天到晚來第二個呢真的被騙到了真的受害到了損失追回的比例當然不見得是數位部後面包括我們司法機關、警政機關\n244133\t244153\t拜訪議員\n265217\t265397\t委員會主席\n295297\t319397\t包括了電子簽章等等的盡快在法規面讓它能夠上路希望透過你們現在在研究的一些方式真的能夠再度的有效的降低你覺得電子簽章法如果通過之後會不會大概詐騙會怎麼樣降低呢我覺得你這個包含投資廣告在那種冒充名人的狀況\n320037\t348880\t他的債範率應該要大幅降低不然就是沒有起到作用我蠻有信心是可以的那現在已經送到大院了所以我想希望這個交友會委員們都支持好的那接下來齁最近啊繞的很熱門的題目啊就是收回身份證吧那我們還特別看到齁因為2000年12月的時候啊你跟阿勇嘛當時的部長啊你們也錄製一個節目啊現在在那個網路啊上面都看得到了\n349600\t374001\t你特別強調這個數位身分證自然是掛保證,絕對沒有什麼問題在整個節目時間還蠻長的,我聽了一段但你掛完保證之後一個月就喊卡了你跟當時徐部長可以講說是當時數位身分證兩個重要的後面的一個推手嗎?那現在喊卡了,停掉了\n375822\t401792\t所以主要什麼原因啊?當時大眾對我們主要的期許其實並不是專門技術上面的而是說他們擔心說如果一下子就換發還沒有配套的像個人資料保護的獨立委員會的成立或者內政部的一個專法來保證說就算不用晶片的人也可以用相同的公共服務那他們很擔心說會變成說好像政府可以掌握大家的一舉一動等等這個跟資安是兩件事情喔\n402492\t423947\t好 因為我昨天看到報道媒體寫說 這個國民黨委員不知道 這個當時的數位身份證剛開始提出這個口號的 是我們馬英九政府 哇 馬威拉又出來了我就覺得很奇怪 我覺得這個公園要蓋一個接待中心 我提出這個理念 然後到最後你們把它蓋歪了 蓋不成了\n425868\t453173\t居然去指責當時提這個理念的人數位身份證事實上在全球現在確實是一個潮流這個到現在都沒有變嘛兩個原因推不下去第一個資安的餘力就是你當時掛保證資安沒有問題但人民不相信嘛就是覺得資安會外洩的這個部分會外流到哪裡去不知道這是第一個不安心但最不安心的是坦白講是對政府的不信任啦\n453633\t479164\t是這個資料假設沒有外泄我們政府怎麼樣去內用我覺得這個後端的資料處理擔心極權的這個才是真的沒錯沒錯當然啦因為政府可能會換人換誰不知道所以這個兩個例外泄內部如果不正當的一個使用讓民眾覺得非常非常擔心這是停下來最主要的一個原因所以我在想你在去年5月份\n480578\t496836\t你在專訪的時候在質詢的時候還說有可能繼續推那現在錢都賠了不是這樣講的我說的是這個要等獨立的各自會成立之後那我們跟著獨立各自會包含內政部要不要立專法來進行研擬這是完整的說\n497176\t523429\t我知道你說獨立的各自會成立之後他決定推不推如果不推那可能就會要去賠償可是各自會沒成立啊現在已經賠了嘛不管有人說那是賠或者不賠那總共花了這麼多錢我不知道因為當時我有請教內政部啦我知道當時你是政務委員你也是主要後面一個重要的一個推手那我們在很多的一個資安的這個餘力之下\n525890\t551458\t拜託您看一看這件事情總共不是最後的2.8億是整個投入的有可能變成都沒有辦法用所以我覺得非常可惜這對於速發部我覺得也是一個經驗這邊有多少東西還可以留下來如果萬一哪一天數位身份證或者相關的一些device還要再用的還有哪一些\n552731\t552751\t謝謝魯委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席,有請唐部長。請部長。委員好。部長好。\n其實打詐防詐已經談了4年了今天邁入第5年了當然您是最近一年半才加入這個因為大家對於數位部尤其對於我們政府成立的打詐辦公室甚至有打詐國家隊大家的期待是比較深的今天早上我特別看到你的書面報告我也看了一下第二個我也看到你最近的一些的\n對於數位部．對於打詐的一個努力付出了一個成果我感覺今天部長站在舞台上要跟民眾講你們都不懂我的努力都不懂我的心我對打詐已經這個做得做得這麼好了是不是在我們主管的這些行業別是不是電商啊等等這個當然我們成績是不錯但是像線上廣告當然我們在爭取成為主管好\n其實民眾也想跟你說同樣的話所以你不懂民眾的心啊到底這差距在哪裡說真的啦你們在111年8月成立的數位部帶著民眾的一個期待當然期待很多包括產業領域其中一個希望\n不要再老是我們的員警同仁在最後那個階段去收拾這個殘局因為他們疲於奔命所以我們希望數位部出來能夠統領這樣的科技的前沿在第一階段在最前面在源頭能夠大量減少或怎麼樣的這個遏止這樣的一個詐騙的一個訊息等等的但是我們現在看到\n這是在尾端刑事局這五年的統計就是說他看到訊息那個還不算被詐騙去已經炸到的都不是這些數字然後受害者沒有報案的也沒有統計進來這是被炸到、被騙到、受害又決定去報案的人數我們看到奇怪為什麼大家一直談數位部對大家的期待有那麼一點點的失望的原因是因為你成立之後\n在刑事局那邊詐騙的件數還增加了33%那當然因為量多破案率反而下降\n你對於這樣的數字的快速的成長,你的說法是?我們去年在交友會有說明過這一年來有一個很重要的差別就是生成式AI的普及也就是說本來它一個人只能當一個人用現在一個人可以冒充成幾百個人用這個真的不一樣那我們周邊的像新加坡等等它年成長率有的超過百分之百所以這一波是國際的但是我們現在是要把它壓平目前是正在壓平的狀況\n這是第一個看到的數據第二個呢\n最近當我們這個國際的一個反詐騙的一個組織他們在去年年底也算是蠻新的資料啦他針對蠻多的一個國家11個國家常受到詐騙的這些的國家、地區做一個統計\n你看到他上面統計的一個結果我覺得蠻有參考價值的台灣近六成的民眾每一個禮拜至少接觸一次的詐騙我覺得這算保守了這統計也算保守了所以這是民眾的感受怎麼詐騙一天到晚來第二個呢真的被騙到了真的受害到了損失追回的比例當然不見得是數位部後面包括我們司法機關、警政機關\n拜訪議員\n委員會主席\n包括了電子簽章等等的盡快在法規面讓它能夠上路希望透過你們現在在研究的一些方式真的能夠再度的有效的降低你覺得電子簽章法如果通過之後會不會大概詐騙會怎麼樣降低呢我覺得你這個包含投資廣告在那種冒充名人的狀況\n他的債範率應該要大幅降低不然就是沒有起到作用我蠻有信心是可以的那現在已經送到大院了所以我想希望這個交友會委員們都支持好的那接下來齁最近啊繞的很熱門的題目啊就是收回身份證吧那我們還特別看到齁因為2000年12月的時候啊你跟阿勇嘛當時的部長啊你們也錄製一個節目啊現在在那個網路啊上面都看得到了\n你特別強調這個數位身分證自然是掛保證,絕對沒有什麼問題在整個節目時間還蠻長的,我聽了一段但你掛完保證之後一個月就喊卡了你跟當時徐部長可以講說是當時數位身分證兩個重要的後面的一個推手嗎?那現在喊卡了,停掉了\n所以主要什麼原因啊?當時大眾對我們主要的期許其實並不是專門技術上面的而是說他們擔心說如果一下子就換發還沒有配套的像個人資料保護的獨立委員會的成立或者內政部的一個專法來保證說就算不用晶片的人也可以用相同的公共服務那他們很擔心說會變成說好像政府可以掌握大家的一舉一動等等這個跟資安是兩件事情喔\n好 因為我昨天看到報道媒體寫說 這個國民黨委員不知道 這個當時的數位身份證剛開始提出這個口號的 是我們馬英九政府 哇 馬威拉又出來了我就覺得很奇怪 我覺得這個公園要蓋一個接待中心 我提出這個理念 然後到最後你們把它蓋歪了 蓋不成了\n居然去指責當時提這個理念的人數位身份證事實上在全球現在確實是一個潮流這個到現在都沒有變嘛兩個原因推不下去第一個資安的餘力就是你當時掛保證資安沒有問題但人民不相信嘛就是覺得資安會外洩的這個部分會外流到哪裡去不知道這是第一個不安心但最不安心的是坦白講是對政府的不信任啦\n是這個資料假設沒有外泄我們政府怎麼樣去內用我覺得這個後端的資料處理擔心極權的這個才是真的沒錯沒錯當然啦因為政府可能會換人換誰不知道所以這個兩個例外泄內部如果不正當的一個使用讓民眾覺得非常非常擔心這是停下來最主要的一個原因所以我在想你在去年5月份\n你在專訪的時候在質詢的時候還說有可能繼續推那現在錢都賠了不是這樣講的我說的是這個要等獨立的各自會成立之後那我們跟著獨立各自會包含內政部要不要立專法來進行研擬這是完整的說\n我知道你說獨立的各自會成立之後他決定推不推如果不推那可能就會要去賠償可是各自會沒成立啊現在已經賠了嘛不管有人說那是賠或者不賠那總共花了這麼多錢我不知道因為當時我有請教內政部啦我知道當時你是政務委員你也是主要後面一個重要的一個推手那我們在很多的一個資安的這個餘力之下\n拜託您看一看這件事情總共不是最後的2.8億是整個投入的有可能變成都沒有辦法用所以我覺得非常可惜這對於速發部我覺得也是一個經驗這邊有多少東西還可以留下來如果萬一哪一天數位身份證或者相關的一些device還要再用的還有哪一些\n謝謝魯委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.668 --> 00:06.569\n謝謝主席,有請唐部長。請部長。委員好。部長好。\n\n00:13.297 --> 00:40.722\n其實打詐防詐已經談了4年了今天邁入第5年了當然您是最近一年半才加入這個因為大家對於數位部尤其對於我們政府成立的打詐辦公室甚至有打詐國家隊大家的期待是比較深的今天早上我特別看到你的書面報告我也看了一下第二個我也看到你最近的一些的\n\n00:42.223 --> 01:06.466\n對於數位部．對於打詐的一個努力付出了一個成果我感覺今天部長站在舞台上要跟民眾講你們都不懂我的努力都不懂我的心我對打詐已經這個做得做得這麼好了是不是在我們主管的這些行業別是不是電商啊等等這個當然我們成績是不錯但是像線上廣告當然我們在爭取成為主管好\n\n01:08.024 --> 01:25.879\n其實民眾也想跟你說同樣的話所以你不懂民眾的心啊到底這差距在哪裡說真的啦你們在111年8月成立的數位部帶著民眾的一個期待當然期待很多包括產業領域其中一個希望\n\n01:27.031 --> 01:53.300\n不要再老是我們的員警同仁在最後那個階段去收拾這個殘局因為他們疲於奔命所以我們希望數位部出來能夠統領這樣的科技的前沿在第一階段在最前面在源頭能夠大量減少或怎麼樣的這個遏止這樣的一個詐騙的一個訊息等等的但是我們現在看到\n\n01:54.500 --> 02:23.682\n這是在尾端刑事局這五年的統計就是說他看到訊息那個還不算被詐騙去已經炸到的都不是這些數字然後受害者沒有報案的也沒有統計進來這是被炸到、被騙到、受害又決定去報案的人數我們看到奇怪為什麼大家一直談數位部對大家的期待有那麼一點點的失望的原因是因為你成立之後\n\n02:24.663 --> 02:34.116\n在刑事局那邊詐騙的件數還增加了33%那當然因為量多破案率反而下降\n\n02:35.800 --> 03:02.074\n你對於這樣的數字的快速的成長,你的說法是?我們去年在交友會有說明過這一年來有一個很重要的差別就是生成式AI的普及也就是說本來它一個人只能當一個人用現在一個人可以冒充成幾百個人用這個真的不一樣那我們周邊的像新加坡等等它年成長率有的超過百分之百所以這一波是國際的但是我們現在是要把它壓平目前是正在壓平的狀況\n\n03:02.654 --> 03:03.175\n這是第一個看到的數據第二個呢\n\n03:17.884 --> 03:32.245\n最近當我們這個國際的一個反詐騙的一個組織他們在去年年底也算是蠻新的資料啦他針對蠻多的一個國家11個國家常受到詐騙的這些的國家、地區做一個統計\n\n03:34.386 --> 04:02.993\n你看到他上面統計的一個結果我覺得蠻有參考價值的台灣近六成的民眾每一個禮拜至少接觸一次的詐騙我覺得這算保守了這統計也算保守了所以這是民眾的感受怎麼詐騙一天到晚來第二個呢真的被騙到了真的受害到了損失追回的比例當然不見得是數位部後面包括我們司法機關、警政機關\n\n04:04.133 --> 04:04.153\n拜訪議員\n\n04:25.217 --> 04:25.397\n委員會主席\n\n04:55.297 --> 05:19.397\n包括了電子簽章等等的盡快在法規面讓它能夠上路希望透過你們現在在研究的一些方式真的能夠再度的有效的降低你覺得電子簽章法如果通過之後會不會大概詐騙會怎麼樣降低呢我覺得你這個包含投資廣告在那種冒充名人的狀況\n\n05:20.037 --> 05:48.880\n他的債範率應該要大幅降低不然就是沒有起到作用我蠻有信心是可以的那現在已經送到大院了所以我想希望這個交友會委員們都支持好的那接下來齁最近啊繞的很熱門的題目啊就是收回身份證吧那我們還特別看到齁因為2000年12月的時候啊你跟阿勇嘛當時的部長啊你們也錄製一個節目啊現在在那個網路啊上面都看得到了\n\n05:49.600 --> 06:14.001\n你特別強調這個數位身分證自然是掛保證,絕對沒有什麼問題在整個節目時間還蠻長的,我聽了一段但你掛完保證之後一個月就喊卡了你跟當時徐部長可以講說是當時數位身分證兩個重要的後面的一個推手嗎?那現在喊卡了,停掉了\n\n06:15.822 --> 06:41.792\n所以主要什麼原因啊?當時大眾對我們主要的期許其實並不是專門技術上面的而是說他們擔心說如果一下子就換發還沒有配套的像個人資料保護的獨立委員會的成立或者內政部的一個專法來保證說就算不用晶片的人也可以用相同的公共服務那他們很擔心說會變成說好像政府可以掌握大家的一舉一動等等這個跟資安是兩件事情喔\n\n06:42.492 --> 07:03.947\n好因為我昨天看到報道媒體寫說這個國民黨委員不知道這個當時的數位身份證剛開始提出這個口號的是我們馬英九政府哇馬威拉又出來了我就覺得很奇怪我覺得這個公園要蓋一個接待中心我提出這個理念然後到最後你們把它蓋歪了蓋不成了\n\n07:05.868 --> 07:33.173\n居然去指責當時提這個理念的人數位身份證事實上在全球現在確實是一個潮流這個到現在都沒有變嘛兩個原因推不下去第一個資安的餘力就是你當時掛保證資安沒有問題但人民不相信嘛就是覺得資安會外洩的這個部分會外流到哪裡去不知道這是第一個不安心但最不安心的是坦白講是對政府的不信任啦\n\n07:33.633 --> 07:59.164\n是這個資料假設沒有外泄我們政府怎麼樣去內用我覺得這個後端的資料處理擔心極權的這個才是真的沒錯沒錯當然啦因為政府可能會換人換誰不知道所以這個兩個例外泄內部如果不正當的一個使用讓民眾覺得非常非常擔心這是停下來最主要的一個原因所以我在想你在去年5月份\n\n08:00.578 --> 08:16.836\n你在專訪的時候在質詢的時候還說有可能繼續推那現在錢都賠了不是這樣講的我說的是這個要等獨立的各自會成立之後那我們跟著獨立各自會包含內政部要不要立專法來進行研擬這是完整的說\n\n08:17.176 --> 08:43.429\n我知道你說獨立的各自會成立之後他決定推不推如果不推那可能就會要去賠償可是各自會沒成立啊現在已經賠了嘛不管有人說那是賠或者不賠那總共花了這麼多錢我不知道因為當時我有請教內政部啦我知道當時你是政務委員你也是主要後面一個重要的一個推手那我們在很多的一個資安的這個餘力之下\n\n08:45.890 --> 09:11.458\n拜託您看一看這件事情總共不是最後的2.8億是整個投入的有可能變成都沒有辦法用所以我覺得非常可惜這對於速發部我覺得也是一個經驗這邊有多少東西還可以留下來如果萬一哪一天數位身份證或者相關的一些device還要再用的還有哪一些\n\n09:12.731 --> 09:12.751\n謝謝魯委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.668,"end":6.569,"text":"謝謝主席,有請唐部長。請部長。委員好。部長好。"},{"start":13.297,"end":40.722,"text":"其實打詐防詐已經談了4年了今天邁入第5年了當然您是最近一年半才加入這個因為大家對於數位部尤其對於我們政府成立的打詐辦公室甚至有打詐國家隊大家的期待是比較深的今天早上我特別看到你的書面報告我也看了一下第二個我也看到你最近的一些的"},{"start":42.223,"end":66.466,"text":"對於數位部．對於打詐的一個努力付出了一個成果我感覺今天部長站在舞台上要跟民眾講你們都不懂我的努力都不懂我的心我對打詐已經這個做得做得這麼好了是不是在我們主管的這些行業別是不是電商啊等等這個當然我們成績是不錯但是像線上廣告當然我們在爭取成為主管好"},{"start":68.024,"end":85.879,"text":"其實民眾也想跟你說同樣的話所以你不懂民眾的心啊到底這差距在哪裡說真的啦你們在111年8月成立的數位部帶著民眾的一個期待當然期待很多包括產業領域其中一個希望"},{"start":87.031,"end":113.3,"text":"不要再老是我們的員警同仁在最後那個階段去收拾這個殘局因為他們疲於奔命所以我們希望數位部出來能夠統領這樣的科技的前沿在第一階段在最前面在源頭能夠大量減少或怎麼樣的這個遏止這樣的一個詐騙的一個訊息等等的但是我們現在看到"},{"start":114.5,"end":143.682,"text":"這是在尾端刑事局這五年的統計就是說他看到訊息那個還不算被詐騙去已經炸到的都不是這些數字然後受害者沒有報案的也沒有統計進來這是被炸到、被騙到、受害又決定去報案的人數我們看到奇怪為什麼大家一直談數位部對大家的期待有那麼一點點的失望的原因是因為你成立之後"},{"start":144.663,"end":154.116,"text":"在刑事局那邊詐騙的件數還增加了33%那當然因為量多破案率反而下降"},{"start":155.8,"end":182.074,"text":"你對於這樣的數字的快速的成長,你的說法是?我們去年在交友會有說明過這一年來有一個很重要的差別就是生成式AI的普及也就是說本來它一個人只能當一個人用現在一個人可以冒充成幾百個人用這個真的不一樣那我們周邊的像新加坡等等它年成長率有的超過百分之百所以這一波是國際的但是我們現在是要把它壓平目前是正在壓平的狀況"},{"start":182.654,"end":183.175,"text":"這是第一個看到的數據第二個呢"},{"start":197.884,"end":212.245,"text":"最近當我們這個國際的一個反詐騙的一個組織他們在去年年底也算是蠻新的資料啦他針對蠻多的一個國家11個國家常受到詐騙的這些的國家、地區做一個統計"},{"start":214.386,"end":242.993,"text":"你看到他上面統計的一個結果我覺得蠻有參考價值的台灣近六成的民眾每一個禮拜至少接觸一次的詐騙我覺得這算保守了這統計也算保守了所以這是民眾的感受怎麼詐騙一天到晚來第二個呢真的被騙到了真的受害到了損失追回的比例當然不見得是數位部後面包括我們司法機關、警政機關"},{"start":244.133,"end":244.153,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":265.217,"end":265.397,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":295.297,"end":319.397,"text":"包括了電子簽章等等的盡快在法規面讓它能夠上路希望透過你們現在在研究的一些方式真的能夠再度的有效的降低你覺得電子簽章法如果通過之後會不會大概詐騙會怎麼樣降低呢我覺得你這個包含投資廣告在那種冒充名人的狀況"},{"start":320.037,"end":348.88,"text":"他的債範率應該要大幅降低不然就是沒有起到作用我蠻有信心是可以的那現在已經送到大院了所以我想希望這個交友會委員們都支持好的那接下來齁最近啊繞的很熱門的題目啊就是收回身份證吧那我們還特別看到齁因為2000年12月的時候啊你跟阿勇嘛當時的部長啊你們也錄製一個節目啊現在在那個網路啊上面都看得到了"},{"start":349.6,"end":374.001,"text":"你特別強調這個數位身分證自然是掛保證,絕對沒有什麼問題在整個節目時間還蠻長的,我聽了一段但你掛完保證之後一個月就喊卡了你跟當時徐部長可以講說是當時數位身分證兩個重要的後面的一個推手嗎?那現在喊卡了,停掉了"},{"start":375.822,"end":401.792,"text":"所以主要什麼原因啊?當時大眾對我們主要的期許其實並不是專門技術上面的而是說他們擔心說如果一下子就換發還沒有配套的像個人資料保護的獨立委員會的成立或者內政部的一個專法來保證說就算不用晶片的人也可以用相同的公共服務那他們很擔心說會變成說好像政府可以掌握大家的一舉一動等等這個跟資安是兩件事情喔"},{"start":402.492,"end":423.947,"text":"好 因為我昨天看到報道媒體寫說 這個國民黨委員不知道 這個當時的數位身份證剛開始提出這個口號的 是我們馬英九政府 哇 馬威拉又出來了我就覺得很奇怪 我覺得這個公園要蓋一個接待中心 我提出這個理念 然後到最後你們把它蓋歪了 蓋不成了"},{"start":425.868,"end":453.173,"text":"居然去指責當時提這個理念的人數位身份證事實上在全球現在確實是一個潮流這個到現在都沒有變嘛兩個原因推不下去第一個資安的餘力就是你當時掛保證資安沒有問題但人民不相信嘛就是覺得資安會外洩的這個部分會外流到哪裡去不知道這是第一個不安心但最不安心的是坦白講是對政府的不信任啦"},{"start":453.633,"end":479.164,"text":"是這個資料假設沒有外泄我們政府怎麼樣去內用我覺得這個後端的資料處理擔心極權的這個才是真的沒錯沒錯當然啦因為政府可能會換人換誰不知道所以這個兩個例外泄內部如果不正當的一個使用讓民眾覺得非常非常擔心這是停下來最主要的一個原因所以我在想你在去年5月份"},{"start":480.578,"end":496.836,"text":"你在專訪的時候在質詢的時候還說有可能繼續推那現在錢都賠了不是這樣講的我說的是這個要等獨立的各自會成立之後那我們跟著獨立各自會包含內政部要不要立專法來進行研擬這是完整的說"},{"start":497.176,"end":523.429,"text":"我知道你說獨立的各自會成立之後他決定推不推如果不推那可能就會要去賠償可是各自會沒成立啊現在已經賠了嘛不管有人說那是賠或者不賠那總共花了這麼多錢我不知道因為當時我有請教內政部啦我知道當時你是政務委員你也是主要後面一個重要的一個推手那我們在很多的一個資安的這個餘力之下"},{"start":525.89,"end":551.458,"text":"拜託您看一看這件事情總共不是最後的2.8億是整個投入的有可能變成都沒有辦法用所以我覺得非常可惜這對於速發部我覺得也是一個經驗這邊有多少東西還可以留下來如果萬一哪一天數位身份證或者相關的一些device還要再用的還有哪一些"},{"start":552.731,"end":552.751,"text":"謝謝魯委員"}]}}}}