{"id":149498,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149498","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe8121b3894b1a1e93dc62c46c87ca327ff8ba9b0039caa7a69f207473fb5f34925ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:35:34 - 10:45:30","影片長度":"00:09:56","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、中央健康保險署、食品藥物管理署就「健保藥價調整，藥廠停產慢性病用藥之因應作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-4"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":596,"end_time":"2024-03-07T10:45:30+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T10:35:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":644,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時35分）好，謝謝主席，我們請部長跟食藥署署長。"],["主席：部長請，還有署長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好，這次的蘇丹紅事件，我覺得它不只是一個系統性事件，而且還是一個重大食安事件，為什麼本席要說它是重大？這次的整個輻射範圍坦白講是非常地大，食藥署本來是預定這個禮拜一你們說你們會查完，結果昨天對外說沒有辦法，也告訴大家說不保證市場沒有問題，所以本席已經看到這次的蘇丹紅事件，它的規模可能會有點像2013年的毒澱粉事件，就是說它所波及的很多的這一些食品其實滲透的範圍非常地廣泛，所以在這樣的情況底下，我有兩個具體的建議，第一個具體的建議，因為是重大食安事件，目前我們看到16個縣市是由地方政府主動發起說禁用辣椒粉，暫時停止辣椒粉進到營養午餐，不管它用了多少，但是先禁用，我覺得這是對的，我看到有一些地方政府有點後知後覺，包括像嘉義縣政府教育局它說什麼，它說我們沒有問題的品項流入嘉義縣，所以可以不用，兩位敢保證嗎？沒有問題的品項流入嘉義縣，昨天你們公布的就有兩家廠商，各有3,612公斤跟2,439公斤兩家食品廠，這個時候誰敢保證沒有蘇丹紅色素流入任何一個縣市，部長你敢保證嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然因為它銷到哪一個縣市去的話，我們還是要循線去追查。"],["王委員育敏：是啊！還在追查中，所以我有點擔心各縣市的教育人員，他們的判斷有點失準，有的縣市人員竟然說我們有問題的都已經下架了，所以我們這個縣市沒問題，連衛福部都不敢保證現在市場的產品，就是不敢保證市場上面沒問題，但是有的教育人員竟然說我們這個縣市沒問題，我覺得不可以各行其事，所以第一個我具體給部長的建議，因為這是重大系統的食安事件，所以有一致性的標準，不要讓各個縣市他們各自解讀，而這件事情更沒有藍綠縣市的問題，我覺得應該就是一致性的標準，就像剛剛部長你講的，因為辣椒粉，學校營養午餐它不見得使用很大量，就是因為這樣子也不會有任何的影響，那你直接這一段時間，在你們還未查明之前我們就把它禁掉，是不是讓所有的家長更安心，部長你覺得有沒有道理？"],["薛部長瑞元：這是可以考慮，因為我剛剛講過，在學童的部分的話，其實吃辣並不是一個很普遍的習慣。"],["王委員育敏：對，但是他可能還是會誤食，所以我覺得，本席具體建議，我待會也會有臨提，我們來討論，我主張因為它是重大系統性的食安事件，暫停一段時間也不會對任何的營養午餐供應商產生任何的問題，所以我覺得這個是讓學童、讓家長更安心的作法，應該全國一致。","第二個、我認為應該比照2013年的毒澱粉事件後來衛生署所頒訂的，這件事情剛剛部長一直說我們是由上而下一直查，我們從原料、加工到零售，但是這樣的速度坦白講是緩慢的，我們到目前查了一個月還有很多的漏網之魚在市面上繼續在賣，這件事情我覺得比照2013年毒澱粉事件後來衛生署的處理我覺得很好，它就下令，要求各個食物的廠商，你現在要供應這個辣椒粉，你自行自清，就是說本店所使用的辣椒粉不含蘇丹紅色素，業者可以有兩種做法，大型連鎖店自己趕快去驗，現在所使用的要確定本身沒有蘇丹紅色素，透過大型連鎖店願意自主送驗，會加快你的速度。","昨天本席辦公室就接到連鎖的早餐店反映，我覺得應該要嘉獎這位人員，他說他發現他們總公司現在就只有告訴他，如果他有用到蘇丹紅就不要用，就只有這樣。但是他們沒有一個督導制度，也沒有一個強制性的做法，所以他認為現在只是用呼籲的說法可能會有很多食安上面的風險。我覺得真的要獎勵這一位從業人員，他自己有這樣的sense，所以他認為像是這一些連鎖加盟的業者，他們應該要發揮業者的主動精神。他現在也發現，他反映這件事情，有的地方政府就說這個就是等上面通知啊！他們是等食藥署公告之後，哪些有問題，它才可以再往下查。所以剛剛也有委員在說我們現在後市場主動去查驗的量夠不夠，就現有的產品或本身是這一種加盟店的我們主動去查驗，看起來沒有，現在都是等著食藥署公告上游廠商之後，從這邊往下查。","所以本席具體建議，其實可以比照2013年的做法，就是讓這些大型食品供應廠自主再去加驗，然後去貼公告，告知本店就是有拿到那個證書，就是說你可以繼續使用這個含有辣椒的產品，但是它不含蘇丹紅。我覺得這是一個加快速度的做法，另外也讓下游的這些廠商可以往上去要求，就是供應商要供應給它要出具證明，證明其辣椒粉不含蘇丹紅，所以它也可以拿著上游廠商給它的這個證明，因為它的店比較小，它不可能自己驗，就是上面要供應給中盤商，它就要出具這個證明，它就可以貼出來。","我不曉得在座的大家有多少人經歷當時的毒澱粉事件，後來你去看珍珠奶茶、肉圓店，小至小吃攤，它都會掛一個公告，它在告訴消費者本店不使用順丁烯二酸。我覺得這才是一個我們目前可以加快速度的做法，我很怕你們繼續由上而下慢慢查，坦白講，再一個月可能也查不完，量太大了。"],["薛部長瑞元：報告委員，其實我們一開始的時候就有這一個措施，我們也通知了一些食品業者，我想這是我們宣導不夠，我們來加強宣導。"],["王委員育敏：對。"],["薛部長瑞元：就讓他們自主檢驗。"],["王委員育敏：而且你要要求喔！而且給他們一段時間，當時是加上你們的行政裁罰，就是如果你公告了之後再被驗出來，也是有事情的，等於是雙重。然後因為這次的爆發，我發現業者的自主查驗做得真的很不好，幾家大廠，我就想說如果上面的供應商是有問題的，我們不是食安法有規定嗎？達到一定規模的是要自主去檢驗這些原料、半成品的，結果我發現通通都沒有做啊！他們都是被動等你們通知，你們通知有的還第一時間否認說沒有，說它的沒問題，然後再突然又改口說它的有問題，有的還是上市上櫃耶！你們回去查，你們針對上市上櫃的要求，它有的還要自設實驗室，就是那個規模，結果我覺得現在好像通通都沒有落實。","守護食安，政府有絕對的責任，但是如果整個食安要做好，你必須把業者的自主性也要拉進來，而且要求它要到位，要不然我們的食安，你看這次系統性的風暴一出現之後，你就會發現，食藥署的人力加上地方的人力這樣子由上而下一直查，那個速度是不夠的。所以由下而上，就是再加這一道力量，你才可以用最快的時間把這一次的蘇丹紅風暴儘快收尾，要不然你們說這個禮拜五就會查完，我敢保證啦！還沒有啦！因為這一次的辣椒粉，它的特殊性太高了，隨隨便便大家都會用到，它擴散了，我們臺灣有這麼多小吃，其實都有可能已經沾染到了，你現在只能把它劃一個，最後就是處理，所有的邊境已經都禁止了，你現在就是要把已經在市場流竄的這一些，趕快透過加入業者的自主檢驗，然後雙重地讓這個可以趕快地順利收尾。部長，你同意嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們就來加強這個的推動跟宣導。"],["王委員育敏：好，不是宣導喔！還要加上你的行政要求，你們回去看一下當時毒澱粉事件的最後處理方法。本席覺得這次的事件跟那個有相近性，當時澱粉也是應用性非常廣，這一次是辣椒粉，也是使用得非常廣泛，所以當時（2013年）的事件，最後衛生署想出來這個處理模式，我覺得是一個很好的參照模式，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["王委員育敏：就拜託部長你們加緊處理，不要讓國人在這次的食安風暴當中有這麼大的恐慌，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員、謝謝部長。"],["主席（王委員育敏）：我們現在休息。","休息（10時46分）","繼續開會（10時53分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","接下來請涂權吉委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":210,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-4","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","林德福","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","李彥秀","林淑芬","黃健豪","謝衣鳯","鍾佳濱","林憶君","劉建國","陳瑩","楊曜","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、中央健康保險署、食品藥物管理署就「健保藥價調整，藥廠停產慢性病用\n藥之因應作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130901_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"149498","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149498","tool":"pyannote","id":"149498-pyannote"},"job_id":"1gMvm0hUBvOy54Mh","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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{\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 587.574, \"end\": 587.794, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 587.794, \"end\": 587.995, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"緊\"}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 587.995, \"end\": 588.015, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 588.575, \"end\": 588.595, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 588.595, \"end\": 588.615, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,673 --> 00:00:11,355\n好謝謝主席那我們請部長跟食藥署署長部長請還有署長委員好好部長好這個這一次的蘇丹紅事件我覺得它不只是一個系統性事件而且還是一個重大食案事件為什麼本席要說它是重大這一次的那個整個輻射的範圍坦白講是非常的大\n\n2\n00:00:33,228 --> 00:00:48,138\n食藥署本來是預定這個禮拜一你們說你們會查完結果昨天對外說沒有辦法那也告訴大家說不保證市場沒有問題所以本席已經看到這次的蘇丹紅事件他的規模可能會有點像2013年的毒澱粉事件\n\n3\n00:00:53,661 --> 00:00:53,781\n王育敏議員\n\n4\n00:01:18,685 --> 00:01:39,331\n暫時停止辣椒粉進到營養午餐不管他用了多少但是先禁用我覺得這個是一個對的我看到有一些地方政府有點後知後覺包括像嘉義縣政府教育局他說什麼他說我們沒有問題的品項流入嘉義縣所以可以不用\n\n5\n00:01:40,689 --> 00:02:04,301\n兩位敢保證嗎?沒有問題的品項流入嘉義縣昨天你們公布的就有兩家廠商各有3612公斤跟2439公斤兩家食品廠這個時候誰敢保證沒有蘇丹紅色素流入任何一個縣市?部長你敢保證嗎?當然因為它銷到哪一個縣市去的話我們還是要循線去追查\n\n6\n00:02:05,145 --> 00:02:05,245\n王育敏\n\n7\n00:02:20,505 --> 00:02:41,502\n衛福部都不敢保證現在市場的產品就是不敢保證市場上面沒問題但是有的教育人員竟然說我們這個管理我們沒問題我覺得不可以各行其事所以第一個我具體給部長的建議因為這是重大系統性的食安事件所以有一致性的標準不要讓各個縣市他們各自解讀\n\n8\n00:02:42,062 --> 00:03:02,787\n而這件事情更沒有藍綠線式的問題我覺得應該就是一致性的標準就像剛剛部長你講的因為辣椒粉學校營養午餐它不見得使用很大量就是因為這樣子也不會有任何的影響那你直接這一段時間在你們還未查明之前我們就把它禁掉是不是讓所有的家長更安心\n\n9\n00:03:03,718 --> 00:03:17,196\n部長你覺得有沒有道理?這是可以考慮,因為我剛剛講過嘛,因為在血統的部分的話,其實吃辣的並不是一個很普遍的習慣對,但是他可能還是會誤食,所以我覺得啦,本期具體見我當然也會有靈體,我們來討論\n\n10\n00:03:19,839 --> 00:03:27,829\n我主張應該因為它是重大系統性的食安事件暫停一段時間也不會對任何的這個營養午餐供應商產生任何的問題所以我覺得這個是讓學童讓家長更安心的一個做法應該全國一致\n\n11\n00:03:35,638 --> 00:04:00,910\n我認為應該比照2013年的這個毒澱粉事件後來衛生署所班定的這件事情剛剛部長一直說我們是由上而下一直查我們從原料加工到零售但是這樣的一個速度坦白講是緩慢的我們到目前查了一個月還有很多的漏網之魚在市面上就是繼續在賣那這件事情我覺得比照2013年毒澱粉事件後來衛生署的處理我覺得很好\n\n12\n00:04:04,011 --> 00:04:27,857\n他就下令要求各個你現在要供應這個辣椒粉就是食物的廠商你自行自清就是說本店所使用的辣椒粉不含蘇丹紅色素那業者他可以有兩種做法大型的連鎖店你自己趕快去驗你現在所使用的你要確定你這個本身沒有蘇丹紅色素\n\n13\n00:04:28,377 --> 00:04:54,935\n那你透過這種大型的連鎖店他們自己願意自主送驗會加快你的速度昨天本席就接到辦公室就接到這個連鎖的這個早餐店我覺得應該要嘉獎這位人員他說他發現他們總公司現在呢就只有告訴他說如果你有用到蘇丹紅就不要用就這樣但是呢他們也沒有一個督導制度也沒有一個強制性的做法\n\n14\n00:04:55,555 --> 00:05:07,767\n那所以他認為現在這樣子只是說用呼籲的這樣子的說法可能會有很多這個食安上面的風險我覺得這一位從業人員真的要獎勵他他自己有這樣的sense所以他認為說像是這些連鎖加盟的業者他們應該要發揮業者的這個主動的精神\n\n15\n00:05:17,617 --> 00:05:43,529\n那他現在發現說有的地方政府他反映這件事情他就說那這個就是等上面通知啊他們是等食藥署你們公告之後哪些有問題他才可以再往下查所以剛剛也有委員在說那我們現在後市場主動去查驗的量夠不夠就現有的產品或者是說他本身是這一種加盟店的店我們主動去查驗看起來沒有現在都是等著食藥署公告上有廠商之後\n\n16\n00:05:43,729 --> 00:05:44,009\n王育敏議員\n\n17\n00:06:01,475 --> 00:06:01,696\n王育敏議員\n\n18\n00:06:18,858 --> 00:06:45,964\n證明說你的辣椒粉不含蘇丹紅所以他也可以拿著上游的廠商給他這個證明因為他店比較小他不可能自己驗就是說你上面你要供應給我的中盤商你就出去這個證明我就可以貼出來這個在座我不曉得大家有多少人經歷那個當時那個毒澱粉事件後來你去看那個珍珠奶茶那個肉圓店小道小吃攤他都會掛一個公告他在告訴消費者說本店\n\n19\n00:06:46,744 --> 00:06:49,545\n報告委員其實一開始的時候我們就有這一個措施我們也通知了一些食品業者那我想這我們宣導不夠我們再加強宣導就讓他們自主檢驗\n\n20\n00:07:10,031 --> 00:07:27,953\n而且你要要求而且給他們一段時間當時是加上你們的行政裁罰就是說如果你公告了之後再被驗出來也是有事情的就是說你等於是雙重然後呢因為這次爆發的我發現業者的自主查驗做得真的很不好幾家大廠\n\n21\n00:07:28,914 --> 00:07:46,132\n我就想說,如果上面的供應商是有問題的,我們不是食安法有規定嗎?你達到一定規模的,你是要自主去檢驗你這些原料,半成品的結果我發現他們都沒有做啊,他們都是被動,等你們通知,啊你們通知有的還第一時間否認說沒有我的沒問題,然後再突然又改口說我的有問題,有的還是上市上櫃欸\n\n22\n00:07:52,337 --> 00:08:13,302\n那個你們回去查你們針對上市上櫃的要求他有的還要自設實驗室就是那個規模結果我覺得現在好像通通都沒有落實所以守護食安政府有絕對的責任但是如果整個食安要做好你必須把業者他的這種自主性也要拉進來\n\n23\n00:08:14,162 --> 00:08:29,243\n而且要求他要到位要不然我們的這個食安你看這次這個系統性的風暴一出現之後你就會發現說食藥署你的人力加上地方的人力你這樣子由上而下一直查那個的速度\n\n24\n00:08:29,964 --> 00:08:30,184\n王育敏\n\n25\n00:08:45,710 --> 00:09:12,524\n還沒有啦因為這一次的這個辣椒粉它的特殊性太高了隨隨便便就是大家都會用到它擴散的我們台灣這麼多小吃其實都有可能已經沾染到了那你現在只能就是把它劃一個最後就是處理你所有的邊境已經都禁止了那你現在就是要把已經在市場流竄的這一些趕快透過加入業者的自主檢驗然後雙重的讓這一個趕快就是\n\n26\n00:09:15,265 --> 00:09:15,847\n這我們就來加強這個推動跟宣導\n\n27\n00:09:22,633 --> 00:09:48,015\n不是宣導喔還要加上你的行政要求喔你們回去看一下當時毒澱粉事件他最後的處理方法本期是覺得這一次的事件跟那個有相近性當時澱粉也是我們應用性非常廣這一次是辣椒粉也是使用的非常廣泛所以當時2013年的這個最後衛生署想出來的這個處理模式我覺得是一個很好的參照模式好不好就拜託部長你們加緊處理\n\n28\n00:09:48,575 --> 00:09:48,615\n主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4673\t11355\t好 謝謝主席那我們請部長跟食藥署署長部長請還有署長委員好好 部長好這個這一次的蘇丹紅事件我覺得它不只是一個系統性事件而且還是一個重大食案事件為什麼本席要說它是重大這一次的那個整個輻射的範圍坦白講是非常的大\n33228\t48138\t食藥署本來是預定這個禮拜一你們說你們會查完結果昨天對外說沒有辦法那也告訴大家說不保證市場沒有問題所以本席已經看到這次的蘇丹紅事件他的規模可能會有點像2013年的毒澱粉事件\n53661\t53781\t王育敏議員\n78685\t99331\t暫時停止辣椒粉進到營養午餐不管他用了多少但是先禁用我覺得這個是一個對的我看到有一些地方政府有點後知後覺包括像嘉義縣政府教育局他說什麼他說我們沒有問題的品項流入嘉義縣所以可以不用\n100689\t124301\t兩位敢保證嗎?沒有問題的品項流入嘉義縣昨天你們公布的就有兩家廠商各有3612公斤跟2439公斤兩家食品廠這個時候誰敢保證沒有蘇丹紅色素流入任何一個縣市?部長你敢保證嗎?當然因為它銷到哪一個縣市去的話我們還是要循線去追查\n125145\t125245\t王育敏\n140505\t161502\t衛福部都不敢保證現在市場的產品就是不敢保證市場上面沒問題但是有的教育人員竟然說我們這個管理我們沒問題我覺得不可以各行其事所以第一個我具體給部長的建議因為這是重大系統性的食安事件所以有一致性的標準不要讓各個縣市他們各自解讀\n162062\t182787\t而這件事情更沒有藍綠線式的問題我覺得應該就是一致性的標準就像剛剛部長你講的因為辣椒粉學校營養午餐它不見得使用很大量就是因為這樣子也不會有任何的影響那你直接這一段時間在你們還未查明之前我們就把它禁掉是不是讓所有的家長更安心\n183718\t197196\t部長你覺得有沒有道理?這是可以考慮,因為我剛剛講過嘛,因為在血統的部分的話,其實吃辣的並不是一個很普遍的習慣對,但是他可能還是會誤食,所以我覺得啦,本期具體見我當然也會有靈體,我們來討論\n199839\t207829\t我主張應該因為它是重大系統性的食安事件暫停一段時間也不會對任何的這個營養午餐供應商產生任何的問題所以我覺得這個是讓學童讓家長更安心的一個做法應該全國一致\n215638\t240910\t我認為應該比照2013年的這個毒澱粉事件後來衛生署所班定的這件事情剛剛部長一直說我們是由上而下一直查我們從原料加工到零售但是這樣的一個速度坦白講是緩慢的我們到目前查了一個月還有很多的漏網之魚在市面上就是繼續在賣那這件事情我覺得比照2013年毒澱粉事件後來衛生署的處理我覺得很好\n244011\t267857\t他就下令要求各個你現在要供應這個辣椒粉就是食物的廠商你自行自清就是說本店所使用的辣椒粉不含蘇丹紅色素那業者他可以有兩種做法大型的連鎖店你自己趕快去驗你現在所使用的你要確定你這個本身沒有蘇丹紅色素\n268377\t294935\t那你透過這種大型的連鎖店他們自己願意自主送驗會加快你的速度昨天本席就接到辦公室就接到這個連鎖的這個早餐店我覺得應該要嘉獎這位人員他說他發現他們總公司現在呢就只有告訴他說如果你有用到蘇丹紅就不要用就這樣但是呢他們也沒有一個督導制度也沒有一個強制性的做法\n295555\t307767\t那所以他認為現在這樣子只是說用呼籲的這樣子的說法可能會有很多這個食安上面的風險我覺得這一位從業人員真的要獎勵他他自己有這樣的sense所以他認為說像是這些連鎖加盟的業者他們應該要發揮業者的這個主動的精神\n317617\t343529\t那他現在發現說有的地方政府他反映這件事情他就說那這個就是等上面通知啊他們是等食藥署你們公告之後哪些有問題他才可以再往下查所以剛剛也有委員在說那我們現在後市場主動去查驗的量夠不夠就現有的產品或者是說他本身是這一種加盟店的店我們主動去查驗看起來沒有現在都是等著食藥署公告上有廠商之後\n343729\t344009\t王育敏議員\n361475\t361696\t王育敏議員\n378858\t405964\t證明說你的辣椒粉不含蘇丹紅所以他也可以拿著上游的廠商給他這個證明因為他店比較小他不可能自己驗就是說你上面你要供應給我的中盤商你就出去這個證明我就可以貼出來這個在座我不曉得大家有多少人經歷那個當時那個毒澱粉事件後來你去看那個珍珠奶茶那個肉圓店小道小吃攤他都會掛一個公告他在告訴消費者說本店\n406744\t409545\t報告委員其實一開始的時候我們就有這一個措施我們也通知了一些食品業者那我想這我們宣導不夠我們再加強宣導就讓他們自主檢驗\n430031\t447953\t而且你要要求 而且給他們一段時間當時是加上你們的行政裁罰就是說如果你公告了之後再被驗出來也是有事情的就是說你等於是雙重然後呢因為這次爆發的我發現業者的自主查驗做得真的很不好幾家大廠\n448914\t466132\t我就想說,如果上面的供應商是有問題的,我們不是食安法有規定嗎?你達到一定規模的,你是要自主去檢驗你這些原料,半成品的結果我發現他們都沒有做啊,他們都是被動,等你們通知,啊你們通知有的還第一時間否認說沒有我的沒問題,然後再突然又改口說我的有問題,有的還是上市上櫃欸\n472337\t493302\t那個你們回去查你們針對上市上櫃的要求他有的還要自設實驗室就是那個規模結果我覺得現在好像通通都沒有落實所以守護食安政府有絕對的責任但是如果整個食安要做好你必須把業者他的這種自主性也要拉進來\n494162\t509243\t而且要求他要到位要不然我們的這個食安你看這次這個系統性的風暴一出現之後你就會發現說食藥署你的人力加上地方的人力你這樣子由上而下一直查那個的速度\n509964\t510184\t王育敏\n525710\t552524\t還沒有啦因為這一次的這個辣椒粉它的特殊性太高了隨隨便便就是大家都會用到它擴散的我們台灣這麼多小吃其實都有可能已經沾染到了那你現在只能就是把它劃一個最後就是處理你所有的邊境已經都禁止了那你現在就是要把已經在市場流竄的這一些趕快透過加入業者的自主檢驗然後雙重的讓這一個趕快就是\n555265\t555847\t這我們就來加強這個推動跟宣導\n562633\t588015\t不是宣導喔還要加上你的行政要求喔你們回去看一下當時毒澱粉事件他最後的處理方法本期是覺得這一次的事件跟那個有相近性當時澱粉也是我們應用性非常廣這一次是辣椒粉也是使用的非常廣泛所以當時2013年的這個最後衛生署想出來的這個處理模式我覺得是一個很好的參照模式好不好就拜託部長你們加緊處理\n588575\t588615\t主席\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席那我們請部長跟食藥署署長部長請還有署長委員好好 部長好這個這一次的蘇丹紅事件我覺得它不只是一個系統性事件而且還是一個重大食案事件為什麼本席要說它是重大這一次的那個整個輻射的範圍坦白講是非常的大\n食藥署本來是預定這個禮拜一你們說你們會查完結果昨天對外說沒有辦法那也告訴大家說不保證市場沒有問題所以本席已經看到這次的蘇丹紅事件他的規模可能會有點像2013年的毒澱粉事件\n王育敏議員\n暫時停止辣椒粉進到營養午餐不管他用了多少但是先禁用我覺得這個是一個對的我看到有一些地方政府有點後知後覺包括像嘉義縣政府教育局他說什麼他說我們沒有問題的品項流入嘉義縣所以可以不用\n兩位敢保證嗎?沒有問題的品項流入嘉義縣昨天你們公布的就有兩家廠商各有3612公斤跟2439公斤兩家食品廠這個時候誰敢保證沒有蘇丹紅色素流入任何一個縣市?部長你敢保證嗎?當然因為它銷到哪一個縣市去的話我們還是要循線去追查\n王育敏\n衛福部都不敢保證現在市場的產品就是不敢保證市場上面沒問題但是有的教育人員竟然說我們這個管理我們沒問題我覺得不可以各行其事所以第一個我具體給部長的建議因為這是重大系統性的食安事件所以有一致性的標準不要讓各個縣市他們各自解讀\n而這件事情更沒有藍綠線式的問題我覺得應該就是一致性的標準就像剛剛部長你講的因為辣椒粉學校營養午餐它不見得使用很大量就是因為這樣子也不會有任何的影響那你直接這一段時間在你們還未查明之前我們就把它禁掉是不是讓所有的家長更安心\n部長你覺得有沒有道理?這是可以考慮,因為我剛剛講過嘛,因為在血統的部分的話,其實吃辣的並不是一個很普遍的習慣對,但是他可能還是會誤食,所以我覺得啦,本期具體見我當然也會有靈體,我們來討論\n我主張應該因為它是重大系統性的食安事件暫停一段時間也不會對任何的這個營養午餐供應商產生任何的問題所以我覺得這個是讓學童讓家長更安心的一個做法應該全國一致\n我認為應該比照2013年的這個毒澱粉事件後來衛生署所班定的這件事情剛剛部長一直說我們是由上而下一直查我們從原料加工到零售但是這樣的一個速度坦白講是緩慢的我們到目前查了一個月還有很多的漏網之魚在市面上就是繼續在賣那這件事情我覺得比照2013年毒澱粉事件後來衛生署的處理我覺得很好\n他就下令要求各個你現在要供應這個辣椒粉就是食物的廠商你自行自清就是說本店所使用的辣椒粉不含蘇丹紅色素那業者他可以有兩種做法大型的連鎖店你自己趕快去驗你現在所使用的你要確定你這個本身沒有蘇丹紅色素\n那你透過這種大型的連鎖店他們自己願意自主送驗會加快你的速度昨天本席就接到辦公室就接到這個連鎖的這個早餐店我覺得應該要嘉獎這位人員他說他發現他們總公司現在呢就只有告訴他說如果你有用到蘇丹紅就不要用就這樣但是呢他們也沒有一個督導制度也沒有一個強制性的做法\n那所以他認為現在這樣子只是說用呼籲的這樣子的說法可能會有很多這個食安上面的風險我覺得這一位從業人員真的要獎勵他他自己有這樣的sense所以他認為說像是這些連鎖加盟的業者他們應該要發揮業者的這個主動的精神\n那他現在發現說有的地方政府他反映這件事情他就說那這個就是等上面通知啊他們是等食藥署你們公告之後哪些有問題他才可以再往下查所以剛剛也有委員在說那我們現在後市場主動去查驗的量夠不夠就現有的產品或者是說他本身是這一種加盟店的店我們主動去查驗看起來沒有現在都是等著食藥署公告上有廠商之後\n王育敏議員\n王育敏議員\n證明說你的辣椒粉不含蘇丹紅所以他也可以拿著上游的廠商給他這個證明因為他店比較小他不可能自己驗就是說你上面你要供應給我的中盤商你就出去這個證明我就可以貼出來這個在座我不曉得大家有多少人經歷那個當時那個毒澱粉事件後來你去看那個珍珠奶茶那個肉圓店小道小吃攤他都會掛一個公告他在告訴消費者說本店\n報告委員其實一開始的時候我們就有這一個措施我們也通知了一些食品業者那我想這我們宣導不夠我們再加強宣導就讓他們自主檢驗\n而且你要要求 而且給他們一段時間當時是加上你們的行政裁罰就是說如果你公告了之後再被驗出來也是有事情的就是說你等於是雙重然後呢因為這次爆發的我發現業者的自主查驗做得真的很不好幾家大廠\n我就想說,如果上面的供應商是有問題的,我們不是食安法有規定嗎?你達到一定規模的,你是要自主去檢驗你這些原料,半成品的結果我發現他們都沒有做啊,他們都是被動,等你們通知,啊你們通知有的還第一時間否認說沒有我的沒問題,然後再突然又改口說我的有問題,有的還是上市上櫃欸\n那個你們回去查你們針對上市上櫃的要求他有的還要自設實驗室就是那個規模結果我覺得現在好像通通都沒有落實所以守護食安政府有絕對的責任但是如果整個食安要做好你必須把業者他的這種自主性也要拉進來\n而且要求他要到位要不然我們的這個食安你看這次這個系統性的風暴一出現之後你就會發現說食藥署你的人力加上地方的人力你這樣子由上而下一直查那個的速度\n王育敏\n還沒有啦因為這一次的這個辣椒粉它的特殊性太高了隨隨便便就是大家都會用到它擴散的我們台灣這麼多小吃其實都有可能已經沾染到了那你現在只能就是把它劃一個最後就是處理你所有的邊境已經都禁止了那你現在就是要把已經在市場流竄的這一些趕快透過加入業者的自主檢驗然後雙重的讓這一個趕快就是\n這我們就來加強這個推動跟宣導\n不是宣導喔還要加上你的行政要求喔你們回去看一下當時毒澱粉事件他最後的處理方法本期是覺得這一次的事件跟那個有相近性當時澱粉也是我們應用性非常廣這一次是辣椒粉也是使用的非常廣泛所以當時2013年的這個最後衛生署想出來的這個處理模式我覺得是一個很好的參照模式好不好就拜託部長你們加緊處理\n主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.673 --> 00:11.355\n好謝謝主席那我們請部長跟食藥署署長部長請還有署長委員好好部長好這個這一次的蘇丹紅事件我覺得它不只是一個系統性事件而且還是一個重大食案事件為什麼本席要說它是重大這一次的那個整個輻射的範圍坦白講是非常的大\n\n00:33.228 --> 00:48.138\n食藥署本來是預定這個禮拜一你們說你們會查完結果昨天對外說沒有辦法那也告訴大家說不保證市場沒有問題所以本席已經看到這次的蘇丹紅事件他的規模可能會有點像2013年的毒澱粉事件\n\n00:53.661 --> 00:53.781\n王育敏議員\n\n01:18.685 --> 01:39.331\n暫時停止辣椒粉進到營養午餐不管他用了多少但是先禁用我覺得這個是一個對的我看到有一些地方政府有點後知後覺包括像嘉義縣政府教育局他說什麼他說我們沒有問題的品項流入嘉義縣所以可以不用\n\n01:40.689 --> 02:04.301\n兩位敢保證嗎?沒有問題的品項流入嘉義縣昨天你們公布的就有兩家廠商各有3612公斤跟2439公斤兩家食品廠這個時候誰敢保證沒有蘇丹紅色素流入任何一個縣市?部長你敢保證嗎?當然因為它銷到哪一個縣市去的話我們還是要循線去追查\n\n02:05.145 --> 02:05.245\n王育敏\n\n02:20.505 --> 02:41.502\n衛福部都不敢保證現在市場的產品就是不敢保證市場上面沒問題但是有的教育人員竟然說我們這個管理我們沒問題我覺得不可以各行其事所以第一個我具體給部長的建議因為這是重大系統性的食安事件所以有一致性的標準不要讓各個縣市他們各自解讀\n\n02:42.062 --> 03:02.787\n而這件事情更沒有藍綠線式的問題我覺得應該就是一致性的標準就像剛剛部長你講的因為辣椒粉學校營養午餐它不見得使用很大量就是因為這樣子也不會有任何的影響那你直接這一段時間在你們還未查明之前我們就把它禁掉是不是讓所有的家長更安心\n\n03:03.718 --> 03:17.196\n部長你覺得有沒有道理?這是可以考慮,因為我剛剛講過嘛,因為在血統的部分的話,其實吃辣的並不是一個很普遍的習慣對,但是他可能還是會誤食,所以我覺得啦,本期具體見我當然也會有靈體,我們來討論\n\n03:19.839 --> 03:27.829\n我主張應該因為它是重大系統性的食安事件暫停一段時間也不會對任何的這個營養午餐供應商產生任何的問題所以我覺得這個是讓學童讓家長更安心的一個做法應該全國一致\n\n03:35.638 --> 04:00.910\n我認為應該比照2013年的這個毒澱粉事件後來衛生署所班定的這件事情剛剛部長一直說我們是由上而下一直查我們從原料加工到零售但是這樣的一個速度坦白講是緩慢的我們到目前查了一個月還有很多的漏網之魚在市面上就是繼續在賣那這件事情我覺得比照2013年毒澱粉事件後來衛生署的處理我覺得很好\n\n04:04.011 --> 04:27.857\n他就下令要求各個你現在要供應這個辣椒粉就是食物的廠商你自行自清就是說本店所使用的辣椒粉不含蘇丹紅色素那業者他可以有兩種做法大型的連鎖店你自己趕快去驗你現在所使用的你要確定你這個本身沒有蘇丹紅色素\n\n04:28.377 --> 04:54.935\n那你透過這種大型的連鎖店他們自己願意自主送驗會加快你的速度昨天本席就接到辦公室就接到這個連鎖的這個早餐店我覺得應該要嘉獎這位人員他說他發現他們總公司現在呢就只有告訴他說如果你有用到蘇丹紅就不要用就這樣但是呢他們也沒有一個督導制度也沒有一個強制性的做法\n\n04:55.555 --> 05:07.767\n那所以他認為現在這樣子只是說用呼籲的這樣子的說法可能會有很多這個食安上面的風險我覺得這一位從業人員真的要獎勵他他自己有這樣的sense所以他認為說像是這些連鎖加盟的業者他們應該要發揮業者的這個主動的精神\n\n05:17.617 --> 05:43.529\n那他現在發現說有的地方政府他反映這件事情他就說那這個就是等上面通知啊他們是等食藥署你們公告之後哪些有問題他才可以再往下查所以剛剛也有委員在說那我們現在後市場主動去查驗的量夠不夠就現有的產品或者是說他本身是這一種加盟店的店我們主動去查驗看起來沒有現在都是等著食藥署公告上有廠商之後\n\n05:43.729 --> 05:44.009\n王育敏議員\n\n06:01.475 --> 06:01.696\n王育敏議員\n\n06:18.858 --> 06:45.964\n證明說你的辣椒粉不含蘇丹紅所以他也可以拿著上游的廠商給他這個證明因為他店比較小他不可能自己驗就是說你上面你要供應給我的中盤商你就出去這個證明我就可以貼出來這個在座我不曉得大家有多少人經歷那個當時那個毒澱粉事件後來你去看那個珍珠奶茶那個肉圓店小道小吃攤他都會掛一個公告他在告訴消費者說本店\n\n06:46.744 --> 06:49.545\n報告委員其實一開始的時候我們就有這一個措施我們也通知了一些食品業者那我想這我們宣導不夠我們再加強宣導就讓他們自主檢驗\n\n07:10.031 --> 07:27.953\n而且你要要求而且給他們一段時間當時是加上你們的行政裁罰就是說如果你公告了之後再被驗出來也是有事情的就是說你等於是雙重然後呢因為這次爆發的我發現業者的自主查驗做得真的很不好幾家大廠\n\n07:28.914 --> 07:46.132\n我就想說,如果上面的供應商是有問題的,我們不是食安法有規定嗎?你達到一定規模的,你是要自主去檢驗你這些原料,半成品的結果我發現他們都沒有做啊,他們都是被動,等你們通知,啊你們通知有的還第一時間否認說沒有我的沒問題,然後再突然又改口說我的有問題,有的還是上市上櫃欸\n\n07:52.337 --> 08:13.302\n那個你們回去查你們針對上市上櫃的要求他有的還要自設實驗室就是那個規模結果我覺得現在好像通通都沒有落實所以守護食安政府有絕對的責任但是如果整個食安要做好你必須把業者他的這種自主性也要拉進來\n\n08:14.162 --> 08:29.243\n而且要求他要到位要不然我們的這個食安你看這次這個系統性的風暴一出現之後你就會發現說食藥署你的人力加上地方的人力你這樣子由上而下一直查那個的速度\n\n08:29.964 --> 08:30.184\n王育敏\n\n08:45.710 --> 09:12.524\n還沒有啦因為這一次的這個辣椒粉它的特殊性太高了隨隨便便就是大家都會用到它擴散的我們台灣這麼多小吃其實都有可能已經沾染到了那你現在只能就是把它劃一個最後就是處理你所有的邊境已經都禁止了那你現在就是要把已經在市場流竄的這一些趕快透過加入業者的自主檢驗然後雙重的讓這一個趕快就是\n\n09:15.265 --> 09:15.847\n這我們就來加強這個推動跟宣導\n\n09:22.633 --> 09:48.015\n不是宣導喔還要加上你的行政要求喔你們回去看一下當時毒澱粉事件他最後的處理方法本期是覺得這一次的事件跟那個有相近性當時澱粉也是我們應用性非常廣這一次是辣椒粉也是使用的非常廣泛所以當時2013年的這個最後衛生署想出來的這個處理模式我覺得是一個很好的參照模式好不好就拜託部長你們加緊處理\n\n09:48.575 --> 09:48.615\n主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.673,"end":11.355,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我們請部長跟食藥署署長部長請還有署長委員好好 部長好這個這一次的蘇丹紅事件我覺得它不只是一個系統性事件而且還是一個重大食案事件為什麼本席要說它是重大這一次的那個整個輻射的範圍坦白講是非常的大"},{"start":33.228,"end":48.138,"text":"食藥署本來是預定這個禮拜一你們說你們會查完結果昨天對外說沒有辦法那也告訴大家說不保證市場沒有問題所以本席已經看到這次的蘇丹紅事件他的規模可能會有點像2013年的毒澱粉事件"},{"start":53.661,"end":53.781,"text":"王育敏議員"},{"start":78.685,"end":99.331,"text":"暫時停止辣椒粉進到營養午餐不管他用了多少但是先禁用我覺得這個是一個對的我看到有一些地方政府有點後知後覺包括像嘉義縣政府教育局他說什麼他說我們沒有問題的品項流入嘉義縣所以可以不用"},{"start":100.689,"end":124.301,"text":"兩位敢保證嗎?沒有問題的品項流入嘉義縣昨天你們公布的就有兩家廠商各有3612公斤跟2439公斤兩家食品廠這個時候誰敢保證沒有蘇丹紅色素流入任何一個縣市?部長你敢保證嗎?當然因為它銷到哪一個縣市去的話我們還是要循線去追查"},{"start":125.145,"end":125.245,"text":"王育敏"},{"start":140.505,"end":161.502,"text":"衛福部都不敢保證現在市場的產品就是不敢保證市場上面沒問題但是有的教育人員竟然說我們這個管理我們沒問題我覺得不可以各行其事所以第一個我具體給部長的建議因為這是重大系統性的食安事件所以有一致性的標準不要讓各個縣市他們各自解讀"},{"start":162.062,"end":182.787,"text":"而這件事情更沒有藍綠線式的問題我覺得應該就是一致性的標準就像剛剛部長你講的因為辣椒粉學校營養午餐它不見得使用很大量就是因為這樣子也不會有任何的影響那你直接這一段時間在你們還未查明之前我們就把它禁掉是不是讓所有的家長更安心"},{"start":183.718,"end":197.196,"text":"部長你覺得有沒有道理?這是可以考慮,因為我剛剛講過嘛,因為在血統的部分的話,其實吃辣的並不是一個很普遍的習慣對,但是他可能還是會誤食,所以我覺得啦,本期具體見我當然也會有靈體,我們來討論"},{"start":199.839,"end":207.829,"text":"我主張應該因為它是重大系統性的食安事件暫停一段時間也不會對任何的這個營養午餐供應商產生任何的問題所以我覺得這個是讓學童讓家長更安心的一個做法應該全國一致"},{"start":215.638,"end":240.91,"text":"我認為應該比照2013年的這個毒澱粉事件後來衛生署所班定的這件事情剛剛部長一直說我們是由上而下一直查我們從原料加工到零售但是這樣的一個速度坦白講是緩慢的我們到目前查了一個月還有很多的漏網之魚在市面上就是繼續在賣那這件事情我覺得比照2013年毒澱粉事件後來衛生署的處理我覺得很好"},{"start":244.011,"end":267.857,"text":"他就下令要求各個你現在要供應這個辣椒粉就是食物的廠商你自行自清就是說本店所使用的辣椒粉不含蘇丹紅色素那業者他可以有兩種做法大型的連鎖店你自己趕快去驗你現在所使用的你要確定你這個本身沒有蘇丹紅色素"},{"start":268.377,"end":294.935,"text":"那你透過這種大型的連鎖店他們自己願意自主送驗會加快你的速度昨天本席就接到辦公室就接到這個連鎖的這個早餐店我覺得應該要嘉獎這位人員他說他發現他們總公司現在呢就只有告訴他說如果你有用到蘇丹紅就不要用就這樣但是呢他們也沒有一個督導制度也沒有一個強制性的做法"},{"start":295.555,"end":307.767,"text":"那所以他認為現在這樣子只是說用呼籲的這樣子的說法可能會有很多這個食安上面的風險我覺得這一位從業人員真的要獎勵他他自己有這樣的sense所以他認為說像是這些連鎖加盟的業者他們應該要發揮業者的這個主動的精神"},{"start":317.617,"end":343.529,"text":"那他現在發現說有的地方政府他反映這件事情他就說那這個就是等上面通知啊他們是等食藥署你們公告之後哪些有問題他才可以再往下查所以剛剛也有委員在說那我們現在後市場主動去查驗的量夠不夠就現有的產品或者是說他本身是這一種加盟店的店我們主動去查驗看起來沒有現在都是等著食藥署公告上有廠商之後"},{"start":343.729,"end":344.009,"text":"王育敏議員"},{"start":361.475,"end":361.696,"text":"王育敏議員"},{"start":378.858,"end":405.964,"text":"證明說你的辣椒粉不含蘇丹紅所以他也可以拿著上游的廠商給他這個證明因為他店比較小他不可能自己驗就是說你上面你要供應給我的中盤商你就出去這個證明我就可以貼出來這個在座我不曉得大家有多少人經歷那個當時那個毒澱粉事件後來你去看那個珍珠奶茶那個肉圓店小道小吃攤他都會掛一個公告他在告訴消費者說本店"},{"start":406.744,"end":409.545,"text":"報告委員其實一開始的時候我們就有這一個措施我們也通知了一些食品業者那我想這我們宣導不夠我們再加強宣導就讓他們自主檢驗"},{"start":430.031,"end":447.953,"text":"而且你要要求 而且給他們一段時間當時是加上你們的行政裁罰就是說如果你公告了之後再被驗出來也是有事情的就是說你等於是雙重然後呢因為這次爆發的我發現業者的自主查驗做得真的很不好幾家大廠"},{"start":448.914,"end":466.132,"text":"我就想說,如果上面的供應商是有問題的,我們不是食安法有規定嗎?你達到一定規模的,你是要自主去檢驗你這些原料,半成品的結果我發現他們都沒有做啊,他們都是被動,等你們通知,啊你們通知有的還第一時間否認說沒有我的沒問題,然後再突然又改口說我的有問題,有的還是上市上櫃欸"},{"start":472.337,"end":493.302,"text":"那個你們回去查你們針對上市上櫃的要求他有的還要自設實驗室就是那個規模結果我覺得現在好像通通都沒有落實所以守護食安政府有絕對的責任但是如果整個食安要做好你必須把業者他的這種自主性也要拉進來"},{"start":494.162,"end":509.243,"text":"而且要求他要到位要不然我們的這個食安你看這次這個系統性的風暴一出現之後你就會發現說食藥署你的人力加上地方的人力你這樣子由上而下一直查那個的速度"},{"start":509.964,"end":510.184,"text":"王育敏"},{"start":525.71,"end":552.524,"text":"還沒有啦因為這一次的這個辣椒粉它的特殊性太高了隨隨便便就是大家都會用到它擴散的我們台灣這麼多小吃其實都有可能已經沾染到了那你現在只能就是把它劃一個最後就是處理你所有的邊境已經都禁止了那你現在就是要把已經在市場流竄的這一些趕快透過加入業者的自主檢驗然後雙重的讓這一個趕快就是"},{"start":555.265,"end":555.847,"text":"這我們就來加強這個推動跟宣導"},{"start":562.633,"end":588.015,"text":"不是宣導喔還要加上你的行政要求喔你們回去看一下當時毒澱粉事件他最後的處理方法本期是覺得這一次的事件跟那個有相近性當時澱粉也是我們應用性非常廣這一次是辣椒粉也是使用的非常廣泛所以當時2013年的這個最後衛生署想出來的這個處理模式我覺得是一個很好的參照模式好不好就拜託部長你們加緊處理"},{"start":588.575,"end":588.615,"text":"主席"}]}}}}